Ryan Moyer: Okay. Today I am joined by Ryan Wexelblatt. Thank you so much for being with me here today.

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Ryan Moyer: today we're going to be talking about parenting and ADHD. So if you want a primer for this episode, you can go back and listen to episode 47 of Why Do We Do That with Stephen Faron, where we talk about ADHD in general. you could also go back to episode 60 and listen to Executive Skills in Children with Richard and Colin Guerre. Ryan's specialty deals with Behavioral interventions for ADHD kids. So the kind of things that you would as a parent do in conversation at home, rules and policies, how to how to manage emotions, things like that. So we're we're we're probably not gonna talk a lot about the other area of of Of dealing with ADHD, which is the medical side, the pharmaceutical side. So we're going to be focused today mostly on Ryan's experience with behavioral interventions. So what ideas are important for parents to understand about how the ADHD brain works? Because in in my limited experience, I have a 14-year-old with ADHD and I have an 11-year-old without ADHD. And I very quickly realized that even though there are there are these umbrella ideas that are good for parents in general to manage misconduct and organization, their their brains work very differently. I I have to take a very different approach when I deal with the 14-year-old girl versus the 11-year-old boy. And it made me realize that I I I I would imagine a lot of parents. may not be up to speed on the specific the specific ways in which ADHD brains function differently from a neurotypical child. So could we just start, just give us an overview about how an ADHD brain might might work differently than a neurotypical brain.

Ryan Wexelblatt: Sure. Well, I always want to start from a strengths perspective and mention that, you know, because a child has ADHD, that does not mean they're fragile. They are what I call anti fragile. and and I really want people to see their kids as capable and anti fragile. So that's the first thing to start with. So ADHD does not make you fragile. The next thing is I want people to understand ADHD as a developmental delay in executive functioning. So executive functioning being you know what I call the operating system of the brain. So for children with ADHD, their executive functioning is approximately two to three years behind their chronological age. So for instance, you know, a 14-year-old, their executive function age is more at 11 or 12, whereas, you know, a seven-year-old, their executive function age is more, you know, five or four. So I just want people to keep that in mind. And that does not mean we lower expectations, but it means we meet kids at their executive function age. Now, here are some of the aspects of executive functioning that people are not familiar with. I think when people think of ADHD, they tend to think of the typical things, you know, inattentiveness, hyperactivity, and those are all valid. And, you know, another way to frame ADHD is we can say it's not difficulty paying attention, it's difficulty regulating your attention to things that are not interesting to you. But when we get more in depth about executive functioning, the one executive function skill that I find Is really the catalyst for so much of the behavior and emotional dysregulation challenges we see has to do with cognitive flexibility. So the ability to be adaptable, to you know, shift when needed, to go with the flow, to be able to accept hearing no. And for children with ADHD who struggle with cognitive flexibility because it's delayed, you know, that often presents as behavior challenges. And this is what I call the executive function skill that never gets talked about because we are so focused on attention and impulsivity and those things. But really, cognitive flexibility is one of the core executive function skills that I want people always to to know about.

Ryan Moyer: Yeah, they wanna and and well and also you see, yeah, the I I picture like a deeper valley for ADHD kids when they when they do see something that they're interested in. It's it it is a it is a arguably a deeper focus on that thing than a than someone than a a neurotypical brain.

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah, so people with ADHD can hyper focus on things that are interesting to them. And that could actually help them be very successful in life, you know, as as well. and and they tend to go through phases, particularly as kids, where they're interested in something, then they're not, and then they move on to a new interest. That's completely normal.

Ryan Moyer: So you were saying that there was a aside from the the cognitive flexibility, what are some other things w of note?

Ryan Wexelblatt: I think the emotional regulation piece. So when we talk about that, really, what we're talking about is being able to regulate your emotions in a way that's expected for the context of the situation. So people with ADHD may they may be overreactive to things. They may have, you know, a strong sense of what we would call justice sensitivity. So the feeling that things have to be fair, and if they're not fair, I'm going to make them fair, you know. And with those are things though, those are skills that can be improved upon. So because a child with ADHD has difficulty with emotional regulation, that doesn't mean it's out of their control. It is within their control, but again, it's a skill that might be lagging and used inconsistently and can be built upon. So that's the other thing I should have mentioned. With ADHD, I want people to always understand that it's a condition of inconsistent performance, meaning that your child might be able to do something well five times and then might not be able to do it well for the next three times. And then maybe they can do it well one time. And then the next three times it seems like that skill is gone. So I think that's the other important thing to note. And with that, the other piece is with kids with ADHD, they tend to live in the moment. So they have difficulty with what I call future thinking skills or nonverbal working memory, which is the ability to visualize something in the future. So a quick example of that, let's say your child does homework and then they forget to hand it in. Well, it's not that they were actually forgetting to hand in the homework, they weren't visualizing themselves handing in the homework. That's a nonverbal working memory piece. You know, the other part of that is they often have difficulty connecting their past experiences with things in the present or future. So because they live in the moment, you know, they might not remember where, you know, I'll give an example because, you know, when we're recording this, it's close to the summer. So if you say to your child, do you want to go back to camp this year, you know, where they went last year, and they say, No, it was boring. Well, they might have had a great time of that camp and enjoyed it, but it's too far out of their time horizon, meaning their ability to visualize the past or present. So they're not remembering the emotions associated with the camp last summer. So they just say automatically it was boring, but they're not really recalling that they had a good time. So that's the thing and the thing I you know, one other thing if I can mention that because kids with ADHD live in the moment, this is why traditional talk therapy, play therapy, things like that. Are not considered evidence-based recommended treatments for children with ADHD. You cannot send a child with ADHD to a therapist and they learn, you know, coping skills and then they're expected to use it a week later. We have to teach things at what what's called the point of performance, meaning we have to teach in the moment. and I always want people to understand that because that is one probably the aspect of ADHD that most people do not know, including professionals, that therapy is not an evidence-based recommended treatment for children with ADHD.

Ryan Moyer: Yeah, yeah, it it reminds me of this idea that a lot of parents have, which is their first line of defense is often explanation. Lots of explanation, lots of questions. You know, one of your videos you say, you know, don't don't ask your ADHD child why did you do that? Because as you said, they they live in the moment. And unlike perhaps a a neurotypical brain, oftentimes there there isn't a tangible reason or a satisfactory reason for a behavior because it is it is very impulsive, right? Sometimes a reaction, it just comes out of nowhere. And whereas maybe adults might have access to some of these things, you know, well, I'm I'm hungry and that's why I snapped at you, I'm sorry, or I did I'm sorry, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night, so I might be a little irritable. The ADHD kids and a lot of kids in general don't have that kind of access. And and it's a it's a huge mistake, it seems to me, to have those expectations.

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah, so what you're talking about is what we would call lagging and inconsistent use of internal dialogue. So, for instance, a child with ADHD might do something and it seems impulsive or silly or just bad judgment. And a parent will say, you know, or a teacher or whomever will say, Why did you do that? Well, and they say, I don't know. Well, they could be avoiding wanting to talk about it because they feel ashamed, you know, but most of the time they genuinely don't know because there is no internal dialogue beforehand about what could possibly be the consequences for this. You know, can I get in trouble? Is this a good idea? So when you have lagging and consistent use of that internal dialogue. You tend to do things that seem to not make sense. And then when adults start processing it as, you know, some deep rooted reason behind that, and there has to be a reason, you know, and it start attaching narratives to the behavior, kids often become frustrated. And when they become frustrated, they often get more escalated.

Ryan Moyer: So let's jump in and talk about the what I what I would guess is probably the the biggest issue that you hear from parents, which is dealing with the emotional dysregulation that is more likely with ADHD kids. So I mean this could come in the form of of an outburst of anger, right? It but I mean it could also be a meltdown, you know, mixed with crying. I I guess there's there there are a couple ways in which you might see a an ADHD kid struggle managing their emotions. But what are some things that that that trigger these types of emotional outbursts in ADHD children?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Well, I think the thing to keep in mind is that really anything can can trigger them. You know, it's not necessarily something that, you know, parents are doing wrong. but certainly, you know, parents with the best of intentions can make things worse sometimes. So here's what I mean by that. And I'm not saying this with any blame at all. As I just mentioned before, they they tend to talk too much, right? Start asking lots of why questions, start trying to process emotions with the best of intentions, but that often escalates a child. you know, another thing is that often, You know, adults will give their undivided attention and emotional reactivity to emotional dysregulation and you know negative behavior. So what happens? The child learns, well, this behavior is rewarded with attention. And for many kids with ADHD, negative attention, positive attention doesn't make a difference. They would prefer positive attention, but they're fine with negative attention. So things are often exacerbated because they get so much attention and the child learns this behavior is being, you know, reinforced with this because I have an audience. so what it might have been, you know, a five minute meltdown that they would have gotten over becomes an hour long thing because the parent keeps trying with the best of intentions to talk to them and calm them and process emotions. Whereas really the best strategy in those cases would be acknowledge how they're feeling and stop giving it attention. You know, particularly if they're treating others badly or or you know, speaking in a way that's that's not okay.

Ryan Moyer: Can you can you talk a little bit more about negative attention? Because it it it does seem a little counterintuitive. you know, my my ADHD teen is you know, I would call her sensitive. sh you know, she if you were to to talk to her and ask, you know, do you like it when when I raise my voice, it would be a hard no. I don't like it when when you raise your voice. But we've had so many cycles of of her doing something that clearly is something that would would would raise my blood pressure a little bit, right? So could you talk a little bit about this this negative attention? And what what you know, why, why what is the gain? What what is the the the dopamine hit that is coming from these in these engagements?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah. So one thing I I guess I want to clarify first is that there's, you know, for anybody who pays attention to any type of neurodiverse parenting social media, there's a lot of these narratives out there that, you know, all behavior is connection seeking. And it's these very emotionally compelling narratives that have no basis in evidence. You know, could could behavior be attention seeking because the child wants attention, which we could say is connection, sure. But but to say that every behavior is, you know, connection seeking is just that's that's something used to sell products to parents. I just want to be clear about that. So why do negative behaviors happen? Well, you know, obviously because, you know, the child, as we mentioned, can get stuck, that they're not getting their way. That's a flexibility piece. It could be the justice sensitivity piece that they think is something is unfair and they want to make sure that they're gonna get justice in in this. it could be a strong reaction to somebody else. because often they have difficulty putting you know size of a problem in a relevant context or just tend to be emotionally reactive. So think about how we tend to handle that. Well, you know, if we issue you know threats of punishment, well that often escalates things. if you know we we get into the heavy emotional processing, how did that make you feel? And what I call playing armchair therapist, that escalates many kids with ADHD. You know, that's that's another thing. And look, in in some cases, you know, the ADHD brain tends to be novelty seeking. They like things that are new, they like things that are exciting. So, particularly when they're bored, they tend to engage in novelty-seeking behaviors, which can mean being provocative, negative attention seeking. And they're not doing that necessarily to upset anybody, they're doing it because they're bored and they need that dopamine you know, hit, as you said. And that's how they get it by because look, negative attention. can get others' attention very quickly. so so one of the things I teach parents is, you know, to not give attention to novelty seeking behaviors. And we have to help kids learn how to replace that by creating some scaffolding, by giving them some structure, limiting their options when necessary. You know, those types of things.

Ryan Moyer: Mm-hmm. And and so in in terms of like the top, I don't know, three things to keep in mind when when tensions are at when that emotions, you know, when you when you're in the midst of that meltdown, you know, you say not not to reward that type of behavior. what does that mean? Because I know you you talk about how the the importance of what you call affective calmness, but The you know, w how do you what are these what are the three things that you would recommend that someone keep in mind when they're in the middle of their child's meltdown?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah. So number one, affective calmness is a term that I use to mean, you know, you can present calmness even when you don't feel calm inside. People often refer to that as co-regulation, but I think that term co-regulation has become very confusing for a lot of parents. I think they often think that means, you know, sit right next to your child and talk to them and process, you know, emotions through things, the things that actually escalate many kids. You know, a a very popular parenting, you know, person on social media who I won't name, you know, they they tell people, you know. Even if your kid is saying, go away, you know, leave me alone, stay with them no matter what. I think that's a horrible idea. If they want space, that's what they need to calm down, respect that and give them space, you know. It, you know, so I don't I don't believe in that whole approach. And that's not really supported by evidence, you know, either. So the number one thing is affective calmness. Try to model calmness even when you don't feel calm inside, because that is teaching emotional regulation skills. Okay. Number two is my saying, give, you know. purposeful recognition and praise to the behaviors you want. Do not give attention or emotional reactivity to the behaviors you don't want. That does not mean ignoring your child. It means not giving attention to those specific behaviors. And this is something also when what I teach is that when when parents change, you know, the way they handle these behaviors, you know, we want to tell the child ahead of time at a calm time, right? That how we're going to be responding differently to them because we don't want to surprise them in the moment. We want them to know exactly what to expect. So that would be, you know, number two. And number three, I just I always want people to understand that we need to have expectations in place for behavior, you know, cooperation and how family members are treated. And there is no one and done. So there's no, you know, you messed up once, now you know you lost this. I don't believe in in that kind of reactive parenting. What I teach is we give you know opportunities for self-correction. my saying is actually. We're not looking for perfection. We give opportunities for self-correction. So for instance, if the expectation is cooperation within two times of being asked, you know, or you know, to t go take a break, whatever, you know, or or s you know, speak respectfully within two times of being asked, we give them those opportunities to self-correct, because again, that's also teaching emotional regulation.

Ryan Moyer: Yeah, we I've I've definitely embraced the the phrase try again because you know I having I have two you know their s they're stepkids, so I have limited experience with them. I only have a couple of years kind of learning their their patterns of behavior. And you know, the the fourteen year old, she's the the one with ADHD. Try again has been helpful because it at least it reinforces the idea in my head that this isn't about total obedience, it's not about punishment, it's not about making them feel bad when they when they lose control. It's always about fostering and scaffolding. And and the now we've had moderate success with try again, which is so for example. You know, this is a nice transition to what I wanted to talk about next, which is disrespectful language. you know, I I I start from the point that, well, maybe she doesn't, she she's probably not aware when she is using disrespectful language. So forget the whole punishment, immediate, reactive. Let's do the try again. And and and we've agreed that try again means that when I say try again. That is an indicator to her that something that she said might be perceived as disrespectful. I would say it works about 75% of the time. 75% of the time, she will go ahead and and and rephrase it, you know, try to not yell. and but you know, the it's there there's still some issues with. you know, there's there's still a certain amount of defiance that that's that tends to persist. And and it I think it's more emotional. I think that the emotion, that negative emotion might be a little deeper when she pushes back. But I you know, could you could you talk a little bit more about this like a scaffolding, as you said, approach versus the reactive, like as soon as you as soon as you do something like immediate consequence, which I think I think some parents might think is necessary.

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah. So one of the things I want to clarify is there's a difference between consequences and punishments. You know there's you know, again, I I feel like I need to say there's a lot of, you know, very emotionally compelling narratives on social media about, you know, children with ADHD don't need punishment. They just need love and connection. And my response to that is how is that going to work when they're out in the real world? Yeah. Right. There is no culture in the world that does not exist without consequences. So, in terms of consequences, what they do need is natural consequences, you know, not ones that we impose arbitrarily based on our our emotional reaction to things. So the way we get around that is we have daily expectations in place. I teach, you know, we we vary the number of these, you know, based on the child's age. and we split them, you know, again, between helping around the house, cooperation, and how family members are treated. And on top of that, we break them up throughout the day. So let's say, you know, your child has a difficult morning. Well, their currency, which they earn from meeting expectations, you know, let's, you know, it's not that they lost it for the whole day. They might have not earned it for that period of the day. So there is no one and done here. We give them multiple opportunities throughout the day to earn their currency, the thing that motivates them to meet expectations. And then on top of that, if they don't meet expectations, we don't say, you've lost this, I'm taking away. Right? What we say is. You know, you chose not to, you know, earn your YouTube time this morning. I hope you'll make a different choice after school. That's it. So I call that language of accountability because we're teaching them accountability and they choose whether they earn, you know, their privileges or currency, you know, or not. and that's really what I mean by scaffolding. And the reason I teach this and is the number one problem I see in families of kids with ADHD is what I call high giving, low expectations, meaning parents give and give and give. And little to nothing is expected of the child in return. So what happens with that? Well, it it often creates children who appear very entitled and selfish at home, but are not like that outside the home. Or the way their their emotional regulation skills look very different outside the home than it does in the home. You know? So when we have expectations of kids that are age appropriate, you know, tied to earning their currency. And broken up throughout the day so they have multiple opportunities to earn, that's that's what that scaffolding looks like.

Ryan Moyer: Yeah. I I've I've really been doing a a lot of research on this idea of of talking about the positives and and using reward versus punishment. ver you know, it it seems to be far more effective to grant to grant and and reinforce when the when children do things how you like them to versus that snap you that snap, you lost screen time, you lost this. but I I still see situations that are a little bit more complex, which is, you know, in order for parents to do to to execute this properly, they have to have a a set of clear expectations. And I think oftentimes parents don't have that. And even in even in our house where we have, you know, we have you know family values all over the place with that we've we've written five of them down and we talk about them every month. But but but then we also run into situations where where you know one of the children will will will will do something and it's like, well we don't really have we didn't have an expectation there. Are can we punish them? You know, I I get a little trigger shy. levying consequences when there wasn't a clear expectation set. So what do you recommend in these more, you know, more nuanced cases where where you don't want to just say because I said so?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah. So that's I'm glad you brought that up because I I do teach parents never to say because I said so, because for people with ADHD, they often need a clear reason for things and they can stop hyper focusing on something and they can get unstuck often when they have a clear reason. Doesn't mean it'll happen immediately, but they need that. They need to have a clear reason. So with expectations, one of the things we have to do is make them really clear and specific and understand, right, you you can't target every single little thing. But for instance, for a child who has a propensity to be oppositional, you know, we can have an expectation of cooperation within two times of being asked. For a child who, you know, starts to speak in a way that's that's not okay, we can say, you know, you know, speak, you know, speak in the same way we speak to you within two times of being asked, or go take a brain break. That's my term for meaning go have some space and you can come back, you know, basically like your try again. But I, you know, I frame it as giving them some space so they can get to a better space. State of self-regulation. Okay. So so right, you can't cover everything with it, but we can certainly create, you know, these expectations that are based on, you know, just very basic things, such as how we speak to people, how we treat others. And and part of the reason why this is so important is, you know, for a lot of adults with ADHD, they still struggle with how they speak to people. A lot of adults with ADHD can come off very abrasive or insensitive or speak in a way that's not respectful. and to be honest, because many of them were never called out on this when they were younger and they were never taught that, you know, you don't you are not entitled to speak to people however you want. So the earlier we teach this the the better.

Ryan Moyer: So let's get hyper specific for a moment with a a situation where a child might be using dis very disrespectful language. Okay. And and we'll we'll even remove the emotions for let's just say they're not they're not angry. it's just it's you know it's just the a reaction where they're using language that that that you don't accept. Now what are some options for parents? Because you know, I I've encounter this on occasion and and if i i if sh if in in the case of my fourteen year old if she raises her voice I oftentimes will end the conversation which you know you kind of mentioned giving some some br time for your brain to reset or relax. but i in these v very specific moments where ch ch the children are using disrespectful language, what are what are some things that you can keep in mind?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah, so this is one of the ones I find particularly fathers have a hard time with. You know, many kids with ADHD, let me kind of do this in tears. Many, many kids with ADHD will often complain or argue when they're not getting their way, when they're, you know, something isn't happening as quickly as they want, or they're they're faced with having to do a non-preferred task. So I call that noise, you know, arguing or complaining for the sake of arguing or complaining. And I teach do not give attention or emotional reactivity to noise. Now let's say it escalates to more, you know, disrespectful language. my advice would be for most, you know, in most cases, that do not give attention to it. Because again, what we want the child to learn is that, you know, you are not going to be rewarded with attention or my emotional reactivity because the way you're speaking. And people will say, Well, how can I let them get away with it? It's not about letting them get away with it. That's not what you're doing. What you're doing is teaching them this is not going to be rewarded with my attention. I'm not going to engage with you when you speak this way. And that's what they need to understand. This is not the way you engage with people. Because again, you know, something I want people to understand is many adults with ADHD still engage with people by being highly argumentative. I think that has something to do with the fact that many of them have difficulty keeping jobs. I mean, look, I've I've been at this for years. I can tell you for a fact, you know, that many adults with ADHD, you know, even if they leave comments on my videos or social media, you know, the way that they engage is just not appropriate. So this is something the earlier we can teach the better. And of course, I'm not talking about all people with ADHD, you know, but the the next tier from that I would say is you know, if they if they get to the level of what we would call emotional blackmail, which is very common amongst kids with ADHD. So as an example, today when I did office hours for my membership site, you know, a parent was saying that, you know, her daughter saying that if she has to go back to her school next year, you know, which she doesn't want to do because she has, you know, some anxiety about things. That she threatens to kill herself. Okay, that's that's what we would call severe tyrannical behaviors. It's emotional blackmail used to coerce or cert control in situations. For that, have an evidence-based protocol where we enlist other people to support the child. And in that case, you know, we what we would do is is actually sit in the you know emergency room of a hospital for hours and waiting for a psych evaluation because that is a natural consequence for using emotional blackmail. So so for typical just for kind of disrespectful language, you know. I I tell people as hard as this is, just try not to give it any attention or emotional reactivity because we want the child to learn you're not going to engage with me this way.

Ryan Moyer: this is very interesting. Go ahead.

Ryan Wexelblatt: So I just wanted to mention then the other thing is that what I teach is about the concept of cleanups. So making amends after you've said or done something hurtful. Because for many kids with ADHD, they will just, you know, speak in a horrible way and then be over it and expect everybody else to be over it. So by having them do a cleanup is, you know, the idea of you know action speak louder than words. So the way you spoke to mom, you know, was not okay. Can you help her set the table for dinner? You know? Or dad was trying to help you and and you were really not it was not appropriate the way you were yelling at him. Can you help him with this? So the idea of a cleanup is making amends to the person who you've said or done something hurtful towards because that's also teaching, you know, reciprocity and relationships and repair.

Ryan Moyer: I I really like what you said about about not giving attention. I think this is a subtle point. because as you mentioned, you know, if e even in adults, for example, when they're o oftentimes you see adults mistreated by someone in public and when they're mistreated they go towards in. Like, why did you do that? I don't deserve to be treated like that. And what what adults don't realize is you're feeding, you're feeding, you're you're you're keeping the interaction going. And it's oftentimes, as you say, the more subtle approach of not of the absence of meeting them at that level of arousal that is the most effective. As a follow-up, you know, my 14-year-old's getting a little bit older, and I definitely avoid at all costs raising my voice and and i'm trying and i'm embracing this idea of of being stoic and and and trying to keep that that that affective calmness however affective staying calm when your child is you know entering into adolescence a little bit older they might at a later time criticize that as being disinterested you're you know you're not you know, you're ignoring me. How does you know that doesn't make me feel good? How can you stay calm when I'm this irritated? Could you talk a little bit about what a conversation with an ADHD teen might look like if they're if if they're frustrated with with your reactions and maybe they're interpreting it as I don't care.

Ryan Wexelblatt: Okay. Well, the one thing as I mentioned before is we always want to tell kids when we're changing our response to their behavior so there are no surprises. So if you're going to start ignoring when they speak to you that way, you know, and not respond to that, we explain to them ahead of time that we're doing that. All right. So that's the number one thing. The other thing to understand is many kids with ADHD do use emotional blackmail, different levels, maybe not the suicidal threats, but you know, you don't care about me, you know, you don't care about how I feel, you love my brother more than me, those kind of things. And what happens is that works profoundly well on mothers, I will say. And often what do they do? No, I do, and they start jumping in with reassurance, right? And then and then that whole dynamic has changed because now the child has learned look, I upset my mother. I can get them to, you know, maybe give in to what I want, even though I'm speaking in this way because I I did something or I said something that triggered them. So for those for that lower level, I guess I'll call it of emotional blackmail, again, you don't respond to it. If they want to speak about something later, you can ask them, did you want to talk about that? You know? and if they don't, then then respect that and don't try to push it. You know, one of the ways I've seen many families with the best of intentions re-escalate their kids is. You know, after an incident, we have to sit down and talk about this and process the incident. And I felt this way and then you said this. That often just makes things worse. So if we tell the child how we're going to be responding ahead of time, they know what to expect. They know we're not going to respond to, you know, the the you know lower level emotional blackmail type statements, and then giving them an opportunity to problem solve afterwards, you know, not just process feelings because that's, you know, what people tend to go to, but really, you know, to problem solve, then we can always give them that. opportunity. But I do want explain, you know, staying it's important to stay away from conversations about what would you do differently next time. Because that might that sounds great in theory, but again, the ADHD brain lives in the moment. You know, t talking about what they can do differently next time, there's not going to be any carryover to that for next time.

Ryan Moyer: I was just going to bring that up, which is to say what are parents to do when the behavior that that they're trying to to curb occurs outside of the home. So for at school, for example, right? Because you know, you you know, you emphasize that the modification has to be at the point of application. That that that right. So what what what what do we do when the situation is outside of the home?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Well, it kind of depends really on the context of the situation. but I would basically give the same advice, you know. so for instance, you know, when my son, I'll give this example with my son who has ADHD and was the poster child for, you know, what we would call oppositional defiant disorder, a label I hate, but he really fitted the description when he was younger. you know, we would be at Target and he would see the Pokemon cards and would want something. And then I would say no. And that became a whole thing, and he would start carrying on in front of the Pokemon cards. Well, I wasn't gonna sit there and beg and plead with him or try to reason with him. I said, okay, I'm leaving, I'll see you. And I would basically go and wait outside the store. you know, and I knew nothing was gonna happen to him because he's in a store, you know, it's self-contained. I'm right outside, but that's an example of I wasn't gonna feed into his his getting stuck on not getting Pokemon cards, even when he started creating a scene. So, as difficult as it might be for people, same principles apply. You know, we give purposeful recognition and praise the behaviors we want. Do not give emotional reactivity or attention to the behaviors you don't want. And you know what? Somebody might judge you because of that. But but you know, that's their their judgment is is you know, their judgment does not dictate how you parent because they don't have to live with your child and they don't have to raise your child. That's what I always tell people.

Ryan Moyer: Okay. Yeah. So I yeah, I think I I might have miss miscommunicated a little bit. So I think that that makes sense for being out in public. I get the example that I was that I'm curious about that I'd like your take on is if the behavior is happening at school, right? If your child is at school and they're either consistently you know, snapping at other kids or they're emotionally dysregulated at school or they're trying to, you know, you're trying to get them to talk to their teachers more or something like that. And and and as as we mentioned earlier, that you know, they're not visualizing themselves doing it. But, you know, specifically in the case of let's say of let's say emotional it an impulse control issue. So that you they're they're getting it handsy with kids at school or something like that. And I'm sure this is going to vary by age, of course. But if if conversations about here's what we need to do next time aren't really if going to work, what can you do when when the child is outside of the home and the parents aren't there?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Okay. So a few things. When if if we'll use your example with school, you know, if they're getting hands in the is an impulsivity issue, you know, again, the only things that help with impulsivity and attention are brain maturity and med med management. You cannot do anything to teach better impulse control or help them focus better on things that are not interesting. It's meds and brain maturity. That's what the research shows.

Ryan Moyer: So I I I want to cut you off because that's so important to understand. It like, you know, I there are so many there's so many levers that that as a parent you think are in front of you. You think that if I just pull this lever and convince them that this is how they need to be, just you know, just one more just one more conversation, just one more conversation and and they will start to apply that messaging. When they're out in the world. And it it seems to me like what you're saying is is very softly to to not have that expectation.

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel that people should teach their family values. I think that's extremely important for all families, right? But at the end of the day, when they're out in school or out in other places in the community, the reality is you have no control over your child's behavior. People have difficulty hearing that. I get this question all the time. You know, this has happened in my child's school. What can I do to help? You cannot do anything to control their behavior at school. What we can do is help them develop perspective taking skills. So if they're struggling with peers, That's often because they have lagging and inconsistent use of perspective taking. So understanding others' thoughts, you know, and understanding how they're coming across to others. That is a skill that takes a very long time to develop, but we can certainly teach it. I mean, I have a course focused on that. and beyond that, like in school, what we can do is we can ask the school to do what's called a functional behavior assessment to help determine, you know, why some of these behaviors are occurring, with the intention of hopefully putting in place what's called a positive behavior support plan. Or sometimes they're called behavior intervention plans or called different things at different, you know, schools. but really that's the best thing with with school is to have the school look at the function of the behavior and have them put something in place because there's nothing you can do to change your be your child's behavior when they're, you know, in school or out in the community. Asides teach them, you know, teach your family values, teach them perspective taking when it comes to, you know, relationships with others and they understand how they're coming across, and have expectations, you know, of of how others should be treated. You know, and and how we behave in public. But again, at the end of the day, that's that's teaching our family values, right? It's it's not something we can control.

Ryan Moyer: Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, you you used the word inconsistent earlier and it it's so fascinating because sometimes I'll you know, to both of both of my kids I'll I'll I'll use certain phrases over and over again. you know, well I mean try again is is sort of behavioral modification, but I'll I'll also use an another phrase like, you know, we you know, we speak kindly and clear to everyone and stuff like that. And and On on some occasions they will reference that exact wording. And I think, you know, it it wasn't an a conversation in anger. It's just part of our values. And if you repeat if you do repeat certain, you know, catchy, pithy phrases that, they might not always act consistent with it, but it's in there. so let's pivot a little bit. Because we've been talking mostly about emotional dysregulation and in and misconduct, but there's another large area of note when it comes to working with ADHD kids, supporting them at home, and that is going back to a point that you mentioned right at the top, which is that ADHD kids often lack the motivation to engage in activities that do not have an immediate benefit. Right. So if you have an ADHD child, you probably notice that they're that they have that deep attention valley for things that interest them, Legos and gaming and stuff like that. and a completely different approach to things like chores and schoolwork. Right. and right, because it it there is no intrinsic value to them. They don't see it and it doesn't matter. how mu how much of a pitch you give them to about, you know, this is important later on in life. You know, do you want to work someday? Do you want work skills? You're wasting your breath. And I think this is also true for just ch children in general. I don't think this is true for ADHD kids specifically, but when parents think about creating an environment at home to get their their children in general or ADHD kids comfortable with. a chore structure with getting in a routine with schoolwork. what are some things that parents need to keep in mind when creating that structure at home?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Well, I think the first thing I want to mention is that you don't need your child's buy-in to create structure at home. You know, we don't need them to get comfortable with with having to do chores or homework or whatever. That's part of life, right? Everybody has to do that. So they might not like it. that you know, they might make a lot of noise and that's okay. They're entitled to feel however they they want about it. So it's it's not something that we have to convince them of, you know, and often what people will say to me, you know, how do I convince my child to take meds? And, you know, I have a specific response for that, but it's a you don't convince them, you tell them this is how things work in our family. So one of the things I think that often, and this is kind of a you know, more you know, zooming out type of answer, but people often have are are fearful of stepping into their parental authority for their child's benefit. Many parents have been misled to believe that being authoritative means being cold, insensitive, not respecting your child's feelings. We have decades and decades of research data that shows authoritative parenting, which is love and warmth combined with clear expectations, boundaries, and limits, is the most effective parenting approach for all children, produces the mental best mental health outcomes. And here's something we know for children with ADHD. Children with ADHD who are raised with an authoritative parenting approach. are more well liked by their peers than children who are raised with a more permissive indulgent parenting approach or an authoritarian, which is, you know, a militaristic style parenting approach. So I think that's that's the first thing is that, you know, you need to not be scared of stepping into your parental authority because the ADHD brain tends to be very concrete. Kids need things spelled out. They need things to be specific. So the more clarity we provide them, the easier things are going to be for them.

Ryan Moyer: Yeah. Yeah. I noticed immediately when it c when it came to to when I moved in with my current wife and and we were kind of tinkering with the with the chore routine, I noticed very quickly that as the adult, you have to shed this idea that you you can expect children to do simple tasks right the first time. They you know, I I mean I I think my expectations were too high immediately. And I it's like You know, it to to the adult, it's simple, like cleaning your room as as a classic example. It seems self-explanatory. You know, okay, did you clean your room? Clean your room. Your room's not clean. And I I very quickly realized that that I need to put on that that hat of of scaffolding and saying, Well, let's let me walk you through what a clean room is defined as. You know, it gets very academic, but it it it It seemed to land when I started to say, okay, things on the floor have a home. They need to be at home. do you find that parents often you know, they they stumble when they're trying to like they just skip right to the did you do it or not when it comes to these small type of household chores?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Here's here's the thing I wanna mention first. You know, I think People are not, parents are not given much education about executive functioning. All you know, what they're basically told is it means academic organizational skills, which is not accurate at all. So for your example, which is perfect of cleaning the room, you know, I teach a strategy that we have to have a picture of what the room's supposed to look like when it's clean, and we break the room up into zones. So we break it up spatially to make it feel, you know, easier to handle, but they need that visual example of what it looks like because when they don't have that, what kid, what tends To happen in families is kids tend to remain prompt dependent, meaning parents say, you know, pick this up, go do this, go do that. When kids are prompt dependent, the adults in their life are acting as their executive functioning, so they don't get to use or develop their own executive functioning. Or the other thing is that often, you know, parents see this as like, you know, a behavior issue. He won't clean his room. Well, it's not that he won't, it's that he doesn't know where to start and doesn't know what the end result should look like. So that's a type of scaffolding you know we can put in place to help build executive functioning. but again, you know, what I find is that often nobody explains this to people. And and I'm gonna be perfectly honest here. most of the strategies out there for kids with ADHD are kind of these generic strategies that work fine for adults, but really don't work for kids with ADHD. Maybe they don't work at all. They could work for a week and then they they don't work anymore. So scaffolding that is you know visual. and then the other, you know, part about that is how we use our language. So we shift from prompting language constantly to, you know, instead of saying, you know, pick this up, pick that up, to, you know, can you make that part of the room look like it's supposed to look in the picture? So they have to use their own internal dialogue. You know, that's that's part of it. The other thing I if if I could just mention real quick, you know, many kids with ADHD learn that learn helplessness is a very effective strategy to have people rescue you from non preferred tasks. So a lot of kids with ADHD, sometimes they'll say this out of frustration. They'll say, I can't do it. I don't know how. They'll start the self-defeating comments. I'm stupid. Well, it might be because they don't have scaffolding in place, which they need to, you know, complete the task. But other times it's because they've learned if I say this, people rescue me. You know, my parent will come in and give me reassurance and clean the room for me when I act helpless. Very common amongst kids with ADHD.

Ryan Moyer: You mentioned prompt dependence, and I wanted to dive a little deeper there because it's true that if you look at the actual develop like the age development, that at some point when your kids are much younger, they need you to help with the prompt dependence. You need at some point they need you to say, Did you know, did you did you remember to pack your bag? Did you remember to brush your teeth? And i is is it the case that they need it and then they should be weaned off of it and that parents don't normally do the weaning off of it part?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Well here's here's the thing, you know, it's different for every child. I don't think you know we can say at this age they you know should absolutely be able to do this because everyone every child's developmental trajectory is different. But what I want people to understand this as is that, you know, this prompt dependence comes from this lack of internal dialogue, or I could should say inconsistent use of internal dialogue, what I call brain voice with kids, combined with difficulty with the nonverbal working memory of visualizing what's supposed to come next. So we can help kids develop this by the way we use language, you know, by like I mentioned, having visual strategies. and and the other thing is, you know, we can start developing this early. So, yes, we do have to prompt sometimes, but we can also say instead of did you brush your teeth, you know, did you do everything on your timeline? Meaning a visual sequence of pictures of the child doing the sequence of steps. Not a list, you know, not some cute pictures we cut out from the internet, but of the child doing the steps. Because the more we get them to use their internal dialogue, the more we will help them, you know, develop this, you know, the you know, their internal dialogue. So, so that's the, you know, the one thing. and then the other thing is, you know, again, it's it's really easy for all of us to just prompt because that's the easiest thing to do. It's a lot harder to get our kids to have to think and use their internal dialogue. And that's often frustrating for them because we're requiring them to think, you know, but it's so important for executive function skill development.

Ryan Moyer: Yeah, and as we wrap up, I I I can I can definitely sympathize with all all parents in general, parents of ADHD kids. You know, some of this might feel like you're drinking from a fire hose, which is, you know, pretty normal. as you said, there are you know, there aren't really there is no book on parenting. It's that old, old phrase. we've we've we've spent almost an hour talking about misconduct, we've talked about motivation from the perspective of the parent. to wrap up could you tell the listeners what ADHD kids most need their parents to understand about them in order to to feel good, to, to feel effective?

Ryan Wexelblatt: Yeah. Number one I think to remember that, you know, they are not fragile, they are anti fragile. That they are capable, even when they appear that they're not capable or think that they're not capable, they are more capable than you realize and likely more than they realize. and and I think the you know, the most important thing I I would say is that kids with ADHD need to feel useful. When they don't feel useful, they exhibit immature and entitled behaviors at home that are not exhibited outside the home. And you know, as I mentioned before, with this high giving, low expectations, so many kids with ADHD are never meant to feel useful at home. So even if they complain about doing chores, even if they complain about having, you know, non-preferred, you know, demands placed on them, it's so incredibly important that they feel useful and feel like they're contributing. and that is throughout their life. People with ADH, they often need to feel productive and feel useful, and they don't feel good when they're not.

Ryan Moyer: Well, thank you so much. it has been a pleasure to talk to you today. Ryan Wexelblatt.

Ryan Wexelblatt: Thank you so much for having me. Great talking to you.