speaker-1: Welcome to Lead Her Higher, a podcast sharing the stories of women transforming education through leadership. I'm your host, Emily McLean. Today I'm joined by Sandra Boyce, Executive Director of Professional Learning and Research. She's an educator, researcher, and leader whose career has been grounded in helping schools bridge the gap between research, relationships, and meaningful practice. You're going to love for insights on creating professional learning that truly changes culture and how to help young people develop the skills and character they need to thrive. Let's get into it. Let's start with her. Story. Thrilled to welcome Sandy to the Lead Her Hire podcast today. Sandy, we first met through the Heads of Junior School Network here in the GTA. And from the very beginning, you always struck me as someone who is so generous and thoughtful and supportive and just willing to share ideas and insights. And you have this remarkable way of thinking deeply and making leadership really feel purposeful and very human. So I'm really excited for our listeners to learn a little bit more about your experience today. So Sandy, welcome to the podcast.

speaker-0: Thank you for that lovely introduction and it's a it's a pleasure to be here.

speaker-1: And we've got a lot of ground to cover today from research to professional learning and to boys' education. So I want to just dive right in. Sounds good. ⁓ you've built a career that's really spans classroom teaching, both junior and middle school leadership, and now research and professional learning with a deep focus on boys' education. Can you take us back and share a little bit about what that journey was like from the beginning and where you are today in your leadership?

speaker-0: Sure. Well well thank you for that question. And again, this is this is such a lovely opportunity to be here. My my education and my love of education, I certainly came by it honestly. My parents are both educators and I grew up in in Winnipeg and with a very, very strong public school system background. There are apparently pictures somewhere of me as my dad was writing and my dad was a school principal and a director of a board of education. And my mom was a special education teacher. And so ⁓ there are pictures of me somewhere pretending to mark papers as my dad was writing his thesis. And that of course, and given that my last name ⁓ for listeners is spelled B-O-Y-E-S, but pronounced boys, I I suppose it was all inevitable that I ended up in voice voice education. My love of learning it and of the school life, the school ebb and flow was was ingrained in me very, very early, ⁓ spending a lot of my time growing up, obviously in school, but when I wasn't in school, I was still in schools. and hanging out with my parents. And I'm the oldest of four. So there's a lot of teaching opportunities, a lot of reading in my house, a lot of music in my house growing up. And again, you know, there really wasn't any question that I wanted to become a teacher and and work in education. And I think that sort of love of learning and the and the way education has the opportunity to amalgamate many parts of who we are as people into the same profession. So we're Whatever your passions are, ⁓ you can be a teacher and find places for them in and out of the classroom. So that that's that's sort of how it all started.

speaker-1: If you think back from the beginning to kind of where you are now in your leadership journey, is was there ever like a consistent thread or through line or something that really stuck with you the whole way through?

speaker-0: So those who know me, arts education is very important to me. And I think that the whole artistic process as a metaphor has been something that's been a through line. So even while I was a teacher in Winnipeg or here, you know, I've sung in the course at the Canadian Opera Company or been on, you know, people who are a little more your your parents, everyone's parents out there will recognize maybe a show called C B C Hymn Sing that I sang on. So I I think when I when I think of my life. and in leadership and what I carry through is this sense of collaboration and project management and ⁓ always going on to the next thing but with the integrity of the process at the center and a sense that and with every collaboration, with every new venture, with every new idea comes an opportunity. And we have to think a bit in how to how to get it to where we need to get it. in but it is a is a collaboration and and we win as a group. So that's where it differs I think slightly from athletics, just in this metaphor. ⁓ I I know athletics are incredibly important in schools, but I I would say that that approach and that that passion for the process has been a through line for me.

speaker-1: And you're a musician and performer yourself. And I know that that, as you've talked about, shows up in your leadership as well. How does that show up with the students that you get to work with as well? How do you bring that love of music and performance and and how does that show up with the kids every day with them?

speaker-0: Well, actually that's a great question because it leads into the how did how did Sandra get from Winnipeg to Toronto? So I was a in in Winnipeg I was a middle school teacher, a seven, eight, nine English and visual arts teacher. And ⁓ I took a couple of years leave to come to Toronto to focus on performance, on classical music, on opera, on that singing, that kind of thing. Ended up working in arts administration while I was doing that and and then through Crazy set of coincidences, discovered that Sterling Hall School for Boys was looking for a JK to eight music, drama, theater arts kind of person. And they hadn't been able to find anybody. And so that was on a Saturday night, and by Tuesday I was hired. And so ⁓ to the answer the question of how music showed up, I actually was a music teacher. And when I came to Crescent, I was in music in grade four for home teacher. And I still conduct the Meton Boys choir here. So they've always lived synergistically together. So the boys know me as both. And and so do the so do the families by this point, because we've had some amazing choir trips all over the world, which has been great.

speaker-1: I love that even in boys education, music is such an emphasis for you. I think it brings so much to students' lives ⁓ and so lucky for the boys in your care to be able to experience it with you.

speaker-0: But it it's it's a lot of fun.

speaker-1: And you've also spent a significant part of your time ⁓ being ahead of lower school. And that experience really sits at the heart of how educators understand learning. So what did that experience really teach you about children and learning in the early years that maybe is sometimes underestimated or maybe misunderstood by people who are outside of elementary education?

speaker-0: Yeah, Emily, I love that question because when I when I would speak to people at home in Winnipeg or people who are, you know, if they find out you're a teacher at a social event and then you have to explain the difference between public and independent school education. And that, you you're getting you're getting into the weeds of all of this, all of these these kinds of things, and you sort of and you sort of end up saying to yourself, wow, it's it's it's really important that you want to To have your son or your child known really, really specifically. And for whatever reason, they want to understand something more about elementary school. And they think, ⁓ well, I'll send my son to or my daughter or my child to an independent school in high school. And I say, no. I mean, I say yes. And then I say no. I said, what people don't understand is your, you know, and Mike Fallon, the headmaster of Crescent, will say this all the time. He'll say, Parents are their are their child's first teachers. And that gets you maybe f age four, age five, depending on the system. And the building blocks of education are absolutely in those years. If concepts get missed at that age, literacy development doesn't solidify. Confidence as a learner doesn't happen. That will impact everything from that moment on. And sense of self-concept. who you are as a learner within a class happens then. And if it can happen within a place where they are known, loved, valued, seen, heard, and early intervention and anything that might show up, upper school teachers are specialists in their subject domains 100% as they need to be at that point in a child's learning journey. And lower school, primary, all of that, they are specialists at being generalists. but they are diagnosticians and if it's gonna go well, that's where it starts. So I just cannot say often enough how important those early years are.

speaker-1: It's really where students develop that sense of belonging, the foundation for all of their future learning. I love how you mentioned knowing themselves as learners, developing those skills, those those critical ⁓ literacy skills as well that ⁓ they really need to be able to be successful.

speaker-0: Literacy, you know, yeah, I I'm not good at math. Where does that come from? You're nine. It just shows how important and how early those seeds can be sown and you wanna reap the benefits of of a garden or the tree that has a strong, a strong foundation.

speaker-1: And now your work also sits at the intersection of research and practice across learning and boys' education, a space that really requires both intellectual clarity and deep systems thinking. And moving from leading schools in this broader research and professional learning role is not just a shift in title, but it's really a shift in how you think about impact and leadership and influence in systems. So, what's been the most significant leadership shift for you personally as you've moved? from leading a school to leading research and professional learning.

speaker-0: Again, another great question. ⁓ I think there have been both personal and sort of professional atmospheric changes. So per personally, the shift has been from larger groups of people. So being a team with a head, assistant head, I'm still a member of like a leadership and executive team here, but really being a part of a team of twenty or thirty or earlier depending on when you are in my career, 40 every day, to be To be a team of three and or three and a half, depending on on what project we're working on. And so that that's a really interesting shift in in how you get to know yourself and understand how you work as a leader and as a person because because now now the work and the energy and the impetus and the clarity and the leadership and the voice is in a smaller, is in a smaller group. And so that continues to take shifts of dynamics and how and how to be a when the team of people working in that space with incredible support, of course, but is is different. And what I've learned in in that in that space is you need to tell your story and you need to tell it often and you need to tell it in a way that every everybody understands that they're that they're a part of that story. When it comes to shifting that storytelling piece to the the broader community, I think that's where the impact of of how the work changes because significant pieces of information come along that will change strategy, that will impact culture. And it's important that people are are aware of those things. But but again, telling the story, how you tell the story, why are we doing this? That that is really ⁓ an incredible part of this job that didn't exist in the same way in the other in the other positions.

speaker-1: That's ⁓ so exciting to be able to to work on that level with that excitement. And when leaders often step closer to research, ⁓ things become more visible as well. And so often there's a gap between what is known as good practice and maybe how it's consistently brought to life in schools. So, from your experience in this space, what does it actually take for a school to move beyond just understanding research ⁓ into real sustained change in the daily practice and What conditions really need to be there to make that shift stick?

speaker-0: Well, when we crack that one, Emily. No. I I I'm I'm being well I'm getting a little bit facetious because that that of course is is the challenge and the opportunity of of every of every school or institution that's looking at going from, you know, intuition to intention, going from theory into practice. I think a few things ha need to be in place for it to go well. One thing that needs to happen is that everybody has to understand why. And so again, back to the storytelling, you know, why this piece of research, why are we integrating it or implementing it? I'll take an example, relational learning. So our school is saying that having a relational learning pedagogy is important to learning. So you can bring in speakers. You can do there are all kinds of things you can do. And you can have the research, you can have the articles, you can have the sharing sessions, you can have the lunch and learns, you can have the breakfast club, you can do all of these things. And you can share the knowledge. And then after the knowledge, you can get an understanding, a shared understanding of what this piece of research is telling us to do. Then comes the trickier bit, because implementation requires not only a systemic belief that this is important for the school, but strategy can die at the classroom or office door. So if it's going to go in, And be tested out and then feedback comes back. Yeah, this part worked, this part didn't work. You need to build the communities and the systems within that research implementation process to actually continue to get the people working in the space commenting on what is working well and what isn't. If it's top down, it's just going to die. It needs to be continually reinforced from all perspectives. It's really more of a circle. Than a set of columns or or a triangle. So Lisa Weldon and others at our school, Rich Prosser, others, they're they're really working at building a set of learning labs, which is how you take something and you try it, you test it out, you come back, even within little microgroups. That's a that's a very sort of a high-level answer to your question. But as a model, I think the tenets are to tell the story, make the why understood. ⁓ tell the story often, get continuous input, be prepared to go in and as as a person telling the story and roll up your sleeves and get in there. The worst thing I think anybody in my position can do is tell other people what to do and then walk away. Leaders have to lead by being in there, leading the focus groups. I I really, I absolutely believe that we need to understand the story before we can lead the story.

speaker-1: Couldn't agree more with you. And you're you're leading the Crescent Center for Boys Education right now. What's some research that's happening there that's really energizing you?

speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh.

speaker-1: Where to begin? ⁓

speaker-0: Well, you know, I think that ⁓ we're really trying to share our our stories. So I'll I'll say there there's sort of three levels of research. There's the research from the external world that we're curating and tailoring to our strategic plan, which is breakthrough twenty thirty for us. Every school has a strategic plan, but that's that's ours. We are looking at faculty led and and staff led research programs with or projects within their action research projects within their disciplines. And then we have a huge and emerging student. research program starting at grade seven and now running through to grade twelve. So within what are we learning? What are we learning? So from external research, we're learning that that boys and men are in crisis. We are learning that they're falling behind that young men and boys are suffering under the weight of the eras and decades of things that didn't go so well for how men worked in the world or communicated in the world, not stereotyping anything, but to say those systems were those systems. But I think the young men and youth of today are suffering as a byproduct. It's just assumed that they're gonna continue those systems. And I don't think that's fair. So we're we're learning about how to be proudly advocates for boys in this struggle and their health and well being. and still make it clear that we support women and believe in it and believe in people. We believe in people being good people. Then from faculty research, ⁓ we're learning a lot about how helping students Wellbeing, ⁓ engagement and belonging. So the web, we're doing a lot of work in that space. And we're also doing a lot of work in helping boys understand that studying is knowledge and understanding, unless they build in a retrieval process for extracting that knowledge 20 minutes later, 30 minutes later, two days later. That's why they say I studied and I studied and I didn't do well. And that's because you spend a lot of time in knowledge and understanding and you didn't actually the studying part is practicing the retrieval methods. And so Gina Kaye, our director of CSS and others are really spinning in that space. And our and our students are just showing with up with an incredible mind-blowing, you know, nuances and insights all the time, like how to build a great onboarding program. So all of those things are happening. And if people are interested, you know, they can check out our Substack or our LinkedIn. It's it's pretty much all out there now. We we're committed to sharing everything we have with anybody interested so that they can. look at what we've done and see what they might find valuable and use it.

speaker-1: I love that you have this mindset of sharing out and and sharing with the community so they can benefit as well. And I love that the students are so central to the research and and you're using their great minds and innovation to really think about how you do things differently at the school as well.

speaker-0: That was really interesting for us actually a really interesting learning that we're we belong to, we're partners with the Student Participatory Action Research Collaborative, which is out of with Michael Reichhardt out of the Center ⁓ Study for Boys and Girls Lives in University of Pennsylvania. And so our whole research, action research team for those students. And we send four teams down every year and we work with them. It was such a great program that we actually built. Our own middle school program that other schools participate in, lots of GTA schools participate that. And it is taking off leafs and bounds. So the opportunity for schools to not only teach research skills by empowering students to have valid and valuable contributions to how to make the school better is really an exciting part of the CCBE right now.

speaker-1: And you've talked a little bit about some of the research that you've been doing and and that we need to then ⁓ take it from research into practice. And so professional learning is part of your role as well. ⁓ and you've been a costume teacher, a school leader, and now you're really shaping the learning across the community of educators at your school. ⁓ and if you think about professional learning, it can't just be something that we do, but really how we think and how we work together. So what do you think most leaders maybe mu misunderstand about how adults actually learn and how we We bring change about.

speaker-0: I love that question. I'm just thinking there's so many ways I can I I can think to to answer it because you know I I think that's just one question that never finishes being answered, right? That's that's an evolving one. I think it's I think we are learning, and not just Crescent, but everybody's learning that when you when you when you t treat teachers like students and we don't use our best teaching methodologies to impart impart knowledge. Then we shouldn't be surprised when our results are not what we want them to be. And some of it's structural, right? You have a professional learning day, you have a professional learning week. So you pile everybody into one big space and you have a keynote speaker. And I'm not saying I don't do this, I do. Sometimes you only have that thought leader for a certain amount of time, and that's the way you need to do it. It's building in after that ways for people to talk about what happened, to one or two takeaways. For those who lead professional learning, consider considering yourselves as a service organization. I am in service of the teachers and educators and leaders in this space. It is my role to help them with what did what they need for this professional learning to matter. Is it late start time? Is it a coffee and conversations? Is it I bring in lunch for a lunch and learn? Is it a learning lab? Is it a Zoom call with the person we had as a thought leader come in and we just do a follow-up? Like what what is it? But one and done, though it has value and sometimes it's the only way we can do it, just talking at people is is not ideal. That's the conundrum always time and space and money, but nonetheless, there it is.

speaker-1: It sounds like there's n really no one size fits all ⁓ model as well. But you had mentioned the learning labs and I'm really ⁓ curious what that looks like at your school.

speaker-0: So what Lisa, Lisa Weldon has done is she's created ⁓ system that she's testing and and they're actually looking at this like a retrieval method of knowledge and understanding. And so you have a pilot and you have a structure, you have a few people, different divisions, you decide you're gonna work on a topic, and then you have cross-divisional discussions, you do low pressure examination of those things in the individual classes of the people that come together. They report and feedback on what worked, what didn't work, what they'd like to try again. And then you sort of decide what are there are there principles here that are are worth. So you're actually sort of testing theory into practice, but in a personalized way, because really at the end of the day, that's what's gonna happen anyway. There might be some everybody must teach this lesson or click off this KPI box at some point. But really, when it comes right down to it, how a teacher interprets those professional learn learning nuggets or a new concept or way of teaching in their practice. So that's that that's sort of the structure she's putting into place. And and you know, I'm happy to share that with people that want to reach out afterwards if they're if they're curious because she's she's doing some incredible work there.

speaker-1: It sounds like a great opportunity to have teachers be trialing things and piloting things and really inquiring and being part of that discovery. And I also love that it's cross divisional. I don't think we get enough time with ⁓ teachers together. So it sounds like a great way to mix and and have that thought ⁓ connection. One thing

speaker-0: No, right? Because I I I think that so much of the work that teachers do, it just never or rarely reaches outside of their work. And in terms of teachers as leaders, classroom teachers as leaders in their own lives, I think it's just so important that we say to them, you know what? Your reflections, this learning lab group, we are creating a paper, we're sending it out in our weekly newsletter, we're putting it on LinkedIn, we're publishing your names, we're getting Well, you know, I'll take it to an IBSC conference. We should present at this workshop. Have you considered? We really need to elevate this work. You know, don't hide all your lid on a under a bushel, right? I mean, we need to say to the people that are are taking this on, why wouldn't you be published? Why wouldn't we publish you? Why wouldn't we celebrate this? So sometimes I think it's important to to do that extra layer of. of work and and and recognition for the people who are really doing the work.

speaker-1: spotlighting the great work as you're share sharing there only positively reinforces the great work that's happening and and you get kind of that the momentum going within the school that others will then follow. Yeah. I want to circle back to ⁓ boys' education a little bit. I as well spent a few years in boys' education and I loved my time there. And I know you brought up a number of different kind of themes and patterns that are emerging in boys' education right now. So I'm really curious

speaker-0: Lighting's a great word.

speaker-1: What do you think that people still need to understand about raising boys, especially as we move into a world where they're gonna be colleagues and partners and leaders working alongside women in spaces?

speaker-0: Yes. No, I only I said it that way because I I feel I feel the weight. I think we all feel the weight of the responsibility ⁓ as educators in the time we're in, regardless of if we're teaching girls, boys, or students. We just know where we are in the world. And so I can I can really only speak about my experience of of the boys that I that I've been working with or my nephews. Who are not in Toronto and who are young men, young, like you know, twenties. And I can say that what would it would be important for us to to treat the men in our lives and the boys that we meet and presume good intent. I'm looking at Substack, of course, because from Boys of Promises on Substack. But I also come across some incredibly and horribly hateful things about men. And I just think, well, how is that gonna help anybody? And so I say as a daughter, as a sister, as a aunt, as a colleague, as as in my case, as a wife. I I just think we really have to remember that the boys we meet should be treated as should everybody we meet, as individuals in their own right. And nobody should have to bear the word toxic associated with them until proven otherwise. Everybody deserves a chance to be their best. And I think that's the culture we need to create. for people in this space. And if we do that, then I believe that regardless of who shows up at the board table, then the people at the board table will work as a collaborative team. I can't tell right now, Emily, if if if the hatred and space on both sides that that I experience in the in the social media world is is an accurate reflection. Of how of how people are feeling, or the people who feel that way gravitate to those spaces. And because my algorithms sort of end up in some of those spaces, I see a lot of this kind of thing. But it in my heart, it it's it, I just am so sad to think that our young people are having to navigate this at a time of their lives where they should be working together. We could just say the past is in the past, meet everybody. As an individual, until proven otherwise, presume good intent and and treat them with the gifts that you would hope they would have. And let's just see what happens.

speaker-1: And Sandy, I think one thing that I've always really respected about the work ⁓ that Crescent does in particular is the the deep focus on character education in a boys' school. Yeah.

speaker-0: For sure. I mean, I think for f maybe for anybody, but I mean, we've partnered partnered with the Center for Curriculum Resign. So through an exceedingly robust, data informed, research-informed space, we have 12 character competencies that can be tracked and measured through reflection, through triangulation of of reflection, observation, feedback over time. And we are tracking those those character qualities and our students know what they are. And they're part of our who am I, how do I lead? What is my legacy, character-infused life here at Crescent? I will say boys, but I would suspect everybody benefits from having what we're about clearly stated. And, you know, if making learning visible is John Hattie's way forward, then then let's just say, and for us at Crescent, let's just say we're we're a character school first. We're here to put good men. to help people help our boys become the good men the world needs. And I'm sure that's true for every school who wants that for their for their students.

speaker-1: And if we think about the good men that the world need and as you're educating boys today and really thinking about how can we shape the future culture of leadership and workplaces, what what else might you say to them to really help them in terms of making it a more equitable workplace and working alongside women?

speaker-0: this isn't totally a moonshot aspirational, but I you know, ⁓ my ultimate goal is for people to be defined by their contributions and their conduct. And and so you're asking me specifically how can boys show up to include women as as partners and leaders equally in this space? I mean, if current data suggests women are leaving boys in the dust, this is not going to be an issue, right? This is an issue right now right me. And maybe it was an issue during Mad Men. And there are of course forces in the world and places where, you know, this is absolutely not the case. So w one size does not fit all in this in this conversation. I would say that specifically at Crescent, we're probably fifty four haven't counted, but fifty-four percent female staff across all divisions, across all jurisdictions, right? So so our boys are growing up with strong female role models. Our boys are growing up here with ⁓ knowing knowing women as leaders and and seeing them in those spaces. They're growing up here seeing and hopefully everywhere seeing the men in this space treat the women the way you're talking about, as equal respected co-leaders and and not emotional people. I'm passionate, you're emotional, I'm a man, you're a woman. Not that. Right. So the kind of a quality that you're talking about to be heard and seen for your talent, your opinion, your conduct, your character, and not, ⁓ well, that's what a woman would say. Any of those things, I I think that the culture that we're trying to create, and I would suggest that many are trying to create and that our families are trying to create of parents of both boys and girls are exactly that.

speaker-1: ⁓ I love hearing that there are such strong role models, female role models for for boys as well. Just like in a girls school, we also need ⁓ that balance in gender as well.

speaker-0: And how the students, they don't miss anything. How are that how are the leaders in the school treating each other? Right? So that's that's huge.

speaker-1: So let's switch into women in leadership then. What has been your perspective and what have you kind of learned along your journey in terms of being a woman in leadership in education?

speaker-0: a great question. I really I think, ⁓ my gosh. I I have so many things to say. One really important piece is as as a woman early on in my career, so let's just say, you know, 90s. There were certain roles that women would naturally be given as leadership roles, you know, vice president, vice principal, although I had a you know, I had some female principals, but not of high schools. My experience was in those earlier times, and for my mom who was in education, you could have leadership, but it was more likely to be elementary school, maybe junior school, maybe middle school or junior high, depending on what province you come from. you could be a leader in those spaces. And then as you get the kids get older and taller, the leadership positions, the department head positions, the heads of school, heads of big high schools and things like that were almost always met. So there was there was there was that. So as a woman in education, I'd say, well, sure, I have opportunities for leadership. Not I didn't necessarily aspire to it at that time, but I actually didn't think, well, I'm going to become the principal of some big inner city Winnipeg or Toronto high school. As a female. Just didn't occur to me. And I think it didn't occur to me because I didn't really think it was possible. So what's changed over time and is that things are possible now, right? So a lot, really a lot has changed. I and I credit men for that. I credit both men and women for that. Right? I've had incredibly positive male role models in in my career, female and male. But the males were the ones that had the higher positions or the the technically higher positions. In in the schools and places I worked when I came to Toronto. Ultimately, the only way you're going to be happy as a leader, period, or as a female leader, is if you define your terms. I this is what success looks like for me. Do I need the words? Do do I want the words? Do I want the title? Do I want the work? Do I want the recognition? Do I want the validation? What am I in this for? And I think every person, but let's say just every every woman and maybe every emerging person, it just helps you to know what you're in the game for. If you need external validation to be a leader and a woman in leadership, you're already, I think, going to be swimming upstream because you may never get what you want. You may never get what you're seeking, because you're seeking it, I would suggest, from the wrong place. So, and at the same time, nobody should be saying your glass ceiling doubt, it's not even possible. So don't even go there. That that's not what I'm suggesting. Just I'm just suggesting that you're only really gonna find the path and be seen by others to be right for whatever chair you are looking for. you are emitting as you show up commitment to be in service of the work. And if you're not, then I think you're you're potentially inadvertently signaling that you're not right for the chair, whatever it is, because you actually want the name on the door. And I've been in that place. There have been times where I've wanted proof and validation because I thought that that would be the way that I could prove it to myself or maybe and to others. And I think everybody's been in that spot. You how do I know it's not enough for me to just say, ⁓ I really enjoy leading and doing this work. And I get pro you know, no, I think you want something more. And I think both come together, but you need to know yourself as a leader first.

speaker-1: love this idea of really clearly defining your terms and knowing that can change at different times. But I think knowing that up front will help you feel that success, whatever success might look like for you at that time.

speaker-0: I agree. And I think knowing that, but then knowing if you're on a career path for to be, let's say, a head of a school or a principal or a president of a bank, or like if you're going for one of those five top titles, as women, we need to understand that we just can't hope we'll be noticed someday in that space. Now, I'm bringing that lens. I don't know if somebody who's 20 would say, well, I always show up with, you know, like girl first girl power. Maybe maybe they would. But looking at it where I am, I would say if that's what you want, you need to be prepared, as Brene Brown would say, to be courageous and to be uncomfortable. And if you've been in a school for five years and you're a teacher and you don't see anybody in an administrative position above you changing seats anytime soon. Then you need to move. Because you're not gonna get that next level of experience being comfortable where you are. My advice and counsel would be just examine where you are in those spaces and say, if that's what you want, you your best not to sit. You have to create a plan for yourself. And if you choose to stay for all other kinds of reasons, that's fine. I think we can learn from being more courageous and more self-advocating. You know, women wait till they're perfect for a job and they know everything about it before they apply. Women believe they're hired on performance, but men have t potentially a tendency to say, Well, I'll be hired on my potential. And in my era anyway, and maybe of others, I would feel I would be a stronger candidate for a job if I'd already proven I had done it and I'd taken the courses and I'd written the papers and I thought, okay, I'm ready. Now here I am. See me? I'm ready. And I think there's a lot to be learned. They're not wrong for saying men aren't wrong for saying they could be promoted on potential. That's not their fault. Mm-hmm. I think we can step into that space a bit more.

speaker-1: So I kind of want to close out this section with, you know, we've talked about a lot of different things and it I always come back to perspective and this idea of hope as well. So when you look across everything that you're seeing now in schools, boys education and the broader landscape of leadership, what really gives you hope for the future of education, leadership, boys' education? What gives you hope?

speaker-0: There's so many people who care and there's just so much heart. There's just so much heart. For as for as much vitriol and angst, I think there is an incredibly connected and caring community of of people coming together to saying, hang on, we need we need to step up. We need to help. We're calling it out everything from Richard Reeves and the American Institute for Boys and Men to Matt Engler Carlson to, I mean, whether you like Scott Galloway or you don't. This is out there. And for both for education, period, I would say I'm hopeful and and joyous that everybody is hanging their hat on the fact that the future generations will get it better than we have. And everybody loves their children and everybody wants them to do well. And so if we can hold on to that as a world, that's my that's my hope for the heart of the future.

speaker-1: I love that. And I think that goes back kind of full circle to the beginning of our conversation when we were talking about, you know, those younger age groups that we work with. It is so foundational to get that right so that we are setting them up for success in the future that we want for not only ourselves but for them and their and what their future holds.

speaker-0: Right. Definitely.

speaker-1: So talking about heart and care, I wanna switch us into one of my favorite sections of our podcast. And really talk about ⁓ a woman who has led you higher, someone who's made an really meaningful impact on a your leadership journey. So Sandy, I'd love to give you the spotlight to be able to shine a light on a woman who's really had an impact on you.

speaker-0: Well, at the risk of being, you know, sentimental, I would certainly say my mom. She she's an exceedingly bright woman. She'll be ninety this September. And, you know, she was the president of the science faculty in in what? The fifties. That wasn't a common thing. Governor General of World's w winner. You know, like all all all of that. And and and and physics and chemistry too. So I did not get any of that. She said very early on. Sandy, you have to make your own money. You have to be independent. You need to be kind to others. You need to be able to take care of yourself. And ⁓ she didn't mean that in a way that was sort of selfish. She meant that you need to be able to stand on your own two feet. And so make sure that you always have that opportunity. And I thought that was super wise. A lot of strong women in education, but I would also say, you know, Stephanie Holt Forster and Laura Koretsky, two women I've worked with here at at Crescent, who've been really prominent in the field, have both brought their wisdom of experience from multiple domains into into my life. Because I didn't grow up in a business family. And there are some things that you just don't get if you don't have that dinner table. There's some things you just you just aren't part of your your experience. And so there's so there are so many, Emily, but you know. For different reasons I I would just give a big hug to those three for sure.

speaker-1: Well, it sounds like they've all had some really impactful wisdom and and advice to you along the way. Your mom sounds like someone who was just ahead of the curve. ⁓ and so luckily we have her in your corner. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, definitely.

speaker-1: So let's wrap up our conversation with a few quick questions to get to know you in a in a bit of a different way. So, what's the best professional advice you've received?

speaker-0: Slow down.

speaker-1: One I probably need from time to time. I used

speaker-0: to think that ⁓ the I would be seen as ⁓ efficient and caring and on top of things by by moving physically quickly and thinking quickly and deciding quickly. And I think ⁓ inadvertently one thing I learned early-ish on is while that can be true, that also can be misconstrued as rush, you didn't listen, you didn't there wasn't enough time, ⁓ you're in a hurry. And and You don't have time for me. And so slow down.

speaker-1: And is there a book that you think ⁓ leaders should be reading or one that you're reading right now that would be a great recommendation?

speaker-0: I'm I'm sort of in the in the coaching space right now. I'm reading a lot a a lot about coaching and listening and levels of listening, but I mean that you know, Dare to Lead is a classic, I suppose. And ⁓ something that I'm finding really interesting are the five dysfunctions of a team and talking about your the working genius of members of teams and I think that that's something again that Mike Bellon brought forward and so as I had an I it's really interesting. So from two different kinds of leadership there.

speaker-1: What's something that just brings you joy every day?

speaker-0: Being with my husband Jim and walking our dog Henry.

speaker-1: And finally, what does the phrase lead her higher mean to you?

speaker-0: It means being in your best possible self in service of others to do the work the world needs you to do.

speaker-1: So beautiful. Sandy, thank you so much for joining me on the Leader Hire podcast. Your insights have been so thoughtful and deeply connected to the realities of schools, especially in the way that you bridge research and professional learning and boys education. And you bring it into such a practical and human way. It's been such a privilege to learn alongside you today. And thank you so much for for being part of this.

speaker-0: Well, we we learned by sharing and so thank you so much. It was just an honor to be here. All the best.

speaker-1: Thank you for listening to this episode of Lead Her Higher. I hope you're leaving today inspired by Sandra's story, her ability to connect research, practice, and humanity in ways that make real change possible. Until next time, lead with courage, lift others up, and always lead her higher.