Jason Harwood: Welcome to another episode of Talking Grit. I am Jason Harwood. With me is Jacob Litten. Before we get started, Jacob, I want to give a shout out to Ray Whittenberg. He's always commenting on our stuff on Twitter. Hopefully he shows up tonight. He was really interested in the extension talk that we're going to talk about today. I want to give him a shout out. then also Jason Lomercy gave us a comment on Spotify a couple of weeks ago. I forgot to shout him out last week. First of all, Jason's an awesome name. We were all college roommates and nice to hear from people I know. It's nice to hear from people I don't know. ⁓ I just want to say thank you for taking the time to comment. Jacob, how are you been man? Jacob Litton: Good. ⁓ Real quick to go back on that. So your college roommate's name was also Jason. Just Jason and Jason. Nice. Jason Harwood: Yeah, yeah, just Jason. Yeah, yep, exactly. Jacob Litton: I'm good though. ⁓ Obviously, full swing in sports, ⁓ baseball classic, ⁓ United States did not quite get it done. We fell short to Venezuela. Did you watch any of the world baseball classic? Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. I did watch, was keeping track of it, but it was just something I meant to watch Sunday's game, but I just didn't get into it. What do you think about Scoobble just like not, you know, just coming, leaving and going back to the Tigers? What did you think about that? That's the storyline that I think is most interesting in this area. Jacob Litton: I know, but you know, it's weird because I didn't, I didn't think much of it. was like, yeah, I guess that checks whatever he's going to give him a start and then go back the uproar that he got for that. I was not expecting that at all. You know, obviously, you know, as a Tigers fan, I can understand like, yeah, I don't want him to get hurt. I don't want to ruin the season or anything like that. I guess people are thinking that he's more worried about his payday coming or things like that, but. Jason Harwood: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jacob Litton: I did not think much of it, but I guess that really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Jason Harwood: Yeah, I did. You know, I think it's been clear the writing has been on the wall for Scoobble that it's all about this contract coming up. Everything that he's done. There are that's rubbed me the wrong way as a Tiger fan, but I've just in my mind. This is it. This is the last year we have Scoobble. That's truly what I believe. I don't think he's coming back. So let's make the most of it. I don't care. Just make the most of it this year. And that's that's all. ⁓ Jacob Litton: Right. Jason Harwood: I guess I got to say about that. We got lots to talk about today, Jacob. We are going to, you know, had another week of free agency, some interesting developments, especially in the last day or so, right? So got plenty to talk about there. a tiny bit about the roster, like where we think additions are going to come before the draft and maybe even, you know, during the draft, you know, just briefly talking. And the last part of our conversation, the second half of the show. is going to be extension talk before we get into heavy draft talk the next couple of weeks. There could be extensions before the draft. We might get it. We might not get it. But I just think it'd be right now. It's interesting to talk about after we see how much they're spending in free agent, what their strategy has been about getting younger, spending, you know, top dollar. I think it's leading to these extensions. And so I want to know what Jacob's thought is like who we're going to, you know, who and when. and what may be the best strategy. And I put a lot of research into my end of it. I'm sure that Jacob did too, because just talking, leading before we started the show, it sounds like that's where ⁓ he's interested in talking about it. So I think that that second half is going to be very interesting. Hopefully ⁓ the listeners there could chat in. I see Dan Pask is on there right now. It says evening. Cheers for the show. Thanks for joining us, Dan. Always welcome to chat and... Jacob Litton: All right, Dan. Jason Harwood: ⁓ you know, ask your questions and then we'll, we'll try to fit it in as we go. All right, Jacob, we've had quite a bit of signings. I know it seems like a slow free agency period, but since we talked last week, there's been some, you know, there's been a quite a few additions or resigns for this team. you know, quickly you want to run down and then we can break down the bigger, ⁓ bigger of those groups, you know, especially the edge ⁓ we got. So why don't you go through that. Jacob Litton: All right, real quick. You let me know if I'm missing anybody. But so we officially re-signed Tom Kennedy, Trevor Nowaski. We signed defensive back Christian Izian, tight end Tyler Conklin, defensive back Roger McCreary, linebacker Damone Clark. News dropping just today, wide receiver Greg Dortch. And big one that I'm sure everyone was looking at as far as position goes, the edge DJ Wanam. So those are the guys that we've added, you know, Jason Harwood: Yep. Jacob Litton: recently. Do you notice a common theme amongst these guys at all? Right. Jason Harwood: They're young. They're young. ⁓ not. were. would say Greg Dorch was ⁓ I mean, I know I mentioned him plenty on this podcast, but I wasn't the only one. was the connection with Petsing was just obvious. And then when Khalif left, it was like, okay, when, when is this going to happen? ⁓ ⁓ you know, it finally happened today. So that, that was exciting. ⁓ outside. Yeah. Jacob Litton: I almost texted you because you were like, you were pretty high on that being a possibility. Then when Khalifa was gone, you were almost willing to bet on it. But then it happened tonight and I knew you're busy with your son's band concert. I like, I don't want to text him during it. I'll let it go. Jason Harwood: Yeah, I Yeah, I don't know if that happened before the concert or I think it might have been after Okay, Yeah, so it was during the cut I couldn't remember when I you know, obviously I wasn't looking at my phone during the concert ⁓ But that was just I I'm happy it happened For the fact that I think he's perfect for what the Lions needed at the at this time and especially with us You know leaving Cleve leaving the division Jacob Litton: I got the alert at like 5.35 and you said you were busy at like 5.30. Jason Harwood: But the rest of us, think if you're looking at the names that you're talking about, of us were like, I hope they sign this guy. I am interested, like Conklin I think is an interesting sign. ⁓ I like that, especially with the Michigan connection. Izzy-in, when I talked to Tampa Tones, ⁓ he's from Buccaneers, excited about what might bring to the table. McCreary you put a nice video on McCreary on there. So I don't know is there a name on there that you're about or you just kind of you know, this is just what we're doing this year sign in second tier guys And we're not ⁓ crazy Jacob Litton: So that right. That was the other common theme that I think amongst them is that none of them like they were not in bidding wars. I don't think to get the services of these guys. Most of them were special teamers or primarily on special teams last year. Izzy started 10 games in 2024 at safety for the Buccaneers. But last year, I don't know if he started any games, but I mean. Jason Harwood: No. Jacob Litton: They kind of had him outside linebacker slot corner free safety, like a hybrid kind of thing. But he was mostly special teams. Tyler Conklin last year played for the Chargers. He had seven catches in 13 games. So, you know, not somebody. You know, they were necessarily high on DeMone Clark, also the linebacker. mean, he played in eight games with the Cowboys. He's cut signed by the Texans. He's also primarily special teams. I don't know if you knew this, but DeMone Clark actually his. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Jacob Litton: pro football focus grade was 31.9. If he had played enough snaps to qualify for like the player ratings, he would have been like second to last amongst all linebackers. So not exactly somebody that you're super stoked about. you know, he's not he's not coming here to fight for a starting spot. He was in ⁓ went to LSU. He was there in 2020 when Kelvin Shepherd was an assistant. So there's probably some familiarity there. You know, special teams somebody bringing on Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. No. Jacob Litton: Like I said, just not anybody that you're super excited about. The only name that I have circled on this list is Roger McCreary. And that's why I made that post. He he got that sack against us in the the blowout game against the Titans. You so I don't know if you want to call it a highlight, but so McCreary is 26 years old and he is almost exclusively a slot cornerback. You compare his numbers to make numbers last year. And I mean, really. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jacob Litton: according to Pro Football Focus with their grades and everything like that, he outperformed Amique pretty much everywhere. The difference with that is that McCreer is 5'11", Amique is 5'8", and Amique was out of position for how long last year? I I know we said Amique can play outside if we need him to play outside. Ideally, you're not going to put Amique outside as much as we had to do. ⁓ didn't work out. So I don't think that that was all necessarily Amique Robertson's fault. But excited to have Roger here. Jason Harwood: Yep. Jacob Litton: I kind of, you know, this feels like when Carlton Davis leaves last year, we get DJ Reed pretty quick and it's like, okay, we filled that hole pretty quickly. We know what that is. I think that that's what the Roger McCreary signing is, in my opinion. Jason Harwood: Okay. Yeah, I think Izzy is closer to like the Brian branch role where he could play some safety play a little bit all over the field. You can ask him to cover. He could do the nickel. I think Roger McCurry is exactly what you said he is our he's going to be you know, the nickel guy. Both those guys will get in after the run game. They will play downhill. I like that. Even if you look at the Mon Clark, I know his numbers weren't that good. But if anything, he's a good run defender, like he will play the run pretty well. I don't think that's going to be his role here. But if they ask him to put him in on there, that's where he's primarily going to be at is, you know, on run stopping to downs. Let's talk about DJ Wanham because that's like what everybody's excited about, right? Because they, you know, we finally got an edge player. What's your opinion of him of what you've learned so far? I don't know how much time you've had to research him, Jacob. I didn't know or if you knew knew about him before. What's your thoughts so far? Jacob Litton: Yeah, no, I was gonna ask you the same question. I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are. So I mean, we lose Al Quadeen Mohammed to Tampa Bay, and he signs for one year up to $6 million. We end up signing later, another edge defender DJ Wanham for I believe it was one year, right? One year up to six. It's I mean, we don't have the exact numbers. But on the surface, it looks nearly identical. You know, Jason Harwood: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Jacob Litton: I had not even really heard of Wanham that much before I had to research into this. But in all fairness, also, when Al Quarine got here, did not, you know, had not heard too much about him, even though he had played for the Bears. You got, he played, DJ played the last two seasons with Carolina. He played in 16 games last year, three sacks, 42 tackles. His pass rush grade was 113 out of 115 edge defenders. That's not ideal for what you want to see. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Jacob Litton: But at the same time, you know, he didn't have Aiden Hutchinson in Carolina pushing people his way or taking up, you know, I know they got the defensive tackle, Derek Brown, but the defensive line as a whole was not really as good as it is here in Detroit. So I think that if you're DJ Wanam, you think that this is your chance for a payday. Like this is your chance to really show what you have. You take last. I know there was a quote that he said last season was kind of just a learning experience for him. A year of growth, know. It's like a slingshot, right? You take that year back, you pull back a little bit and now you're ready to go. That's what everybody here is hoping for. I still don't think it's off the table that we sign another edge or that we draft one, right? But on the surface, I'm okay with it. I just feel like Quadrin was right there. Why is he not still here? Why did he not play more when he was here? You already know. ⁓ Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Jacob Litton: I thought the ship had already sailed. didn't think there was any chance he was coming back based on his quotes. And then he kind of had some more quotes afterward too about, you know, excited to play us and he didn't understand either why he wasn't being used. So what are your thoughts on this? Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's Clear. It's I don't think DJ Wanham is your Al-Qadim Mohammed replacement. think I think we're going to say that because they're going to be compared because of similar contracts and one's leaving and one's getting here. going to. So Justin Rogers did a tape review. So like a lot of my opinions, obviously, that listens to show know that I really respect Justin. So he you know, his or ⁓ his assessment, dynamite run can hold the edge really well. lacks pass rush. That's not surprising. ⁓ what you said, the grades kind of play that out. I will say that I'm excited that he's going to, we need someone to hold the edge. We trouble on the outside edge holding the running game along with backside help too. lot of backside runs on there, but we just need to be able to hold that edge a little bit better. DJ. ⁓ Wannum's gonna be able to do that. He's not, he's gonna primarily be on first and second downs. And this is what the Lions like. Regardless of what you think, what I think, what everybody else wants out there, we want you know, speed rush on the other end. The Lions don't want that. They want a guy that holds that edge. I mean, I see problems with that, but that's just why ⁓ not here and why DJ Wannum is gonna be your, you know, gonna be on the outside there. I'm okay with the signing. I'm okay with the money. He's young. Like you said, he didn't have an Aiden Hutchinson on the other side. There may be more opportunities here than what he's had in the past. I also, when you look at, like I think you made a point in it and I just want to emphasize it. No one wanted El-Quddee Mohammed last year. you know, it wasn't like, yes, we got our edge. We're so happy, but somehow he gets all these sacks and then, you know, ⁓ got to have this guy back. got. He's in his thirties. He's again playing absent Aidan Hutchinson. Like all those things like go into the equation. Do we want to pay this guy for something that he's never done in his career before? Do we think he can repeat it? I don't know. We'll see next year what he has. You got something to say? Jacob Litton: Well, yeah, just because Al Quadine when he resigned last year was 29 years old and DJs 28. So they're not, you know, I know you said DJs young, but I mean, it's not like their age is that far off either. That's also where the similarities come in. But, you know, I know you already mentioned the run defense. Al Quadine only played like 80. He had like 80 snaps last year where they were running plays. They just did not use him. And maybe that was a liability and they protected him from getting exposed. We don't know. Jason Harwood: Yeah, Yes. No. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. And they didn't, and that... Yeah. And that's, mean, I'm going to guess that that that's where it was at. I mean, if you, if he could guard the run, you'd want to have them out there. I will say that also. Alquadim's a lot of his production came in a few games. I mean, he had multiple sack games in there. And so like, you know, he'd go weeks without a time. Now some of that might be usage based on how the Lions used, him, but there was, there's stuff to say that it wasn't like he was every game, you know, creating all this pressure. we'll see. Lions value run defense more than anything else. And it shows with their scheme, it shows with the players they signed and that's why they got DJ Wanham. I don't think they're done at the edge. And also I think Wanham is more of like a Josh Pascal replacement, a Davenport replacement than he was Al-Qaeda Mohammed. I think, you know, we're going to have to see, they're going to... do some pass rush, whether that comes a free agency or the draft, or we got a guy in the roster, Hassaneen, right? Like, that's what I think, huh? Jacob Litton: He's a late round pick with an injury that we don't know. But I mean, so if you say DJ is not Al Quadeen replacement, which is like situational, like, you know, your second or third Ed Rusher, if you think he's a Davenport replacement, that was our starter. Right. So I mean, do you do you think you're bringing him in here with a shot like, hey, there's a chance for you to start here. Jason Harwood: Right. Yeah. I think he's gonna, think depending on the draft, the draft's a wild card. Jordan could be in there. Like if we get Camp Jordan, I think that, but I think as of right now, obviously he's the starter because we only have three edges on this team. now I will tell, ⁓ I will tell you that Levi Antorica is the wild card as far as that edge position. He played out there too when he, ⁓ we got the injury history. So. Jacob Litton: As of right now, by default, but yes. Jason Harwood: take all this with a grain of salt. But two years ago, when he was healthy the whole year, he played that edge position a lot and he has a quick get off. like he has some pass rush and with Tyleek in there, think they're going to, if Ansarike is healthy, they're going to, he's going to be on the outside too. So he's going to be in that edge discussion. I mean, I certainly want him out there as opposed to a lean. I want to lean in the middle. I don't want him on the edge like he was last year. Jacob Litton: Yes. Jason Harwood: So I think Azarique's in this conversation that he's going to be listed as a defensive line, but they will put him on that edge. Jacob Litton: Absolutely. Jason Harwood: ⁓ so quickly, is there, so there's so, Epinessa signed today. So I know that that was, ⁓ I don't know if you saw it. He went to the Browns. He just signed with the Browns like not too long ago. So he's off the board. ⁓ I know that that was all, a player that a lot of people thought that, you know, he might be a fake because he'd be a cheaper option. could play up to, you know, maybe get some playing time. So he's off the board. Is there, I just met you Cam Jordan. Jacob Litton: Where'd go? Jason Harwood: You know, got Jadadia Clowney, Joey Bosa is on this list, Dante Fowler, Von Miller, Preston Smith, and a guy we're familiar with, Kyle Van Noy. All with Can Play Edge. Is there any guy on there? Do you think we sign any of those guys or do you think it's draft time or someone that's not on this list? Jacob Litton: I just don't see with it being as far into it as it already is, clearly not going to throw a bag at any of them. I want Cam Jordan. That was the one that we talked about before. Like I think that would be great. Veteran, know, somebody that can still, still has a little bit of gas left in the tank. That's not going to cost you a bunch of money. Unless Cam Jordan is looking for, Cam might be looking for another payday, but also like a Super Bowl contender, you know. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Jacob Litton: I don't really want Bosa. see Bosa's name floating around there a lot. Clowney played decently well last year, but that's somebody else that's probably looking for a decent contract. I just looked at ⁓ Eponisa just to see. It says that he signed for one year, five million. So I mean, we could have got him at a discount over Wanam. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Yep. Right. Like, why not I'm here to run Defender. I'm telling you right now, like he's gonna, he's got to defend that edge. I get he's the saw wall. But Justin also said that if the tackle gets his hands on him, then he's done. He's stonewalled. He doesn't have a like a counter move or anything like that. But if he holds that edge, that's exactly what they want. Jacob Litton: But anyway, I just don't. Right. Yeah, I don't see us signing any of them. I would like to get somebody on this list, but I just don't see it happening. Jason Harwood: Yeah, I don't know. I think camp Jordan still possibility just because of the saints connection. He's not out there and it might be even after the draft, like camp Jordan knows he's going to sign somewhere. He's probably looking around that. He, I think he's going to look at 8 million or more. So we, it kind of just depends on how free agency goes. But I think that that that's your probably the guy that you're going to ride. He's healthy. He doesn't miss games. you know, it's a one year stop gap. All those guys that I listed though. our older guys, like you're talking 30 years older. We have not signed a free agent as far as I, other than Teddy Bridgewater, we have not signed anyone older than 30. They've definitely gone younger. Before we move on to Rosser stuff, let's talk a little bit about the Greg Dorch stuff. So his stats last year, when I wanted to look at, I looked at his pump return average, his air. So He is average last year. He returned just 16 punts, but his average was 11.56. Uh, Cleaves was only 7.53. So he actually returned more. Now there's a lot that goes into that, right? Like are we, are they kicking higher to Cleaves because they know Cleaves dangerous where they kick him more to George? Uh, obviously the Lions games were probably closer than the Cardinals game. So game situation all goes into this. So, but what I will say is that he Dorch also returns kicks, I think is ⁓ I'm really, mean, he's not like a dynamite returner, but I'm excited that he is an option in that return game. Jacob Litton: Yeah, that's where the biggest difference is. Khalif's numbers were better in the punt return game, but Khalif returned, from what I have, he returned six kickoffs last year and Dortz returned 31. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yes. Jacob Litton: that could also be, you know, kicking around or doing this or that. I mean, that's considerably higher number. Jason Harwood: Yes, he just has experience and what we need is people to experience back there. mean, know, I know Tom Kennedy is there, but I just don't think Tom Kennedy is going to obviously show up for a game or two this year. That's what just Tom Kennedy does. But I think it's going to be as of right now, I bet you it's dorks and sailors back there. Those are the two guys that I think are going to be back there. We'll see. Jacob Litton: and you'd be okay with that. Jason Harwood: Um, as of right now, yeah, I want to see Dorch. I want to see him train to camp. I want to see what he's got, but, um, yeah, I'm okay with he has experience. I trust him back there to make the good decision. Now he's not an absolute burner where he's a game changer back there. We could still draft someone to grow into that role. But as far as someone that I could trust back there to make good sound decisions, I'm okay with it. Jacob Litton: We still have Lovett that we drafted last year and we don't know exactly. He didn't get too much of an opportunity, but he is a little bit bigger of a receiver. Dorch is even smaller than Kaleef. So that's the thing, like, is he going to stay healthy back there and kick off return? Jason Harwood: I Yeah. He showed he has now the Lions tend to like bigger guys back there now. Kaleef got concussion on a kickoff return and that's, you know, the reason why he missed some of those games, but Kaleef also had a tendency at kickoff returns to put his head down. If you notice, like he just, I don't know if it's a protection thing, but he would put his head down in that he would get injured quite a bit on kickoff returns. Obviously George did it, you know, many more returns last year. He might just know how to protect his body a little bit more. Anything else you want to talk about Dorch or move on? Jacob Litton: No, mean, I just one more thing that I guess is just that their offensive numbers were very similar last year. But Dorch has the upper hand coming in, you know, working with Petsing over the last few years. So Petsing knows what he has. If he has some sort of gadget plays or different things like that, you know, Dorch had several rushing attempts last year. So. Probably a good chance that they might use him in something like that this year for us. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's a really almost a one-for-one with Khalif with the added benefit of Kickoff returns now Khalif is pretty dynamic at the punt return, but he's getting older And ⁓ know, it just is is the way it worked out I I'm excited what ⁓ what he can what Dorje is gonna add to the roster here. All right, speaking of the roster We have currently have 64 players signed. We got nine draft picks, you know, we're gonna go up to 90 So what Jacob and I are going to do is quickly run through the roster. We're not going to do a deep roster breakdown, but we're going to talk about where we expect some roster additions or maybe whether we want them in free agency or draft. We're going to quickly get through that and then we're going to get into the extension talk here. So I expect us to sign, I wrote five to eight guys before the draft, but I wrote that I think before we signed like three guys today. So I'm expecting about five or six more guys in free agency, whether that's before the draft or after the draft that we're going to add. We'll add the draft picks and then they'll be on draft or free agents on top of that. Are you alignment with that? Is that what you think, Jacob? What would you expect or? Jacob Litton: Yeah, I mean, in that tracks for last year, too. I think last year when I looked, the last move that we made before the draft was like March 28th or something. And then we had no movement until after the draft happened. So probably going to be looking similar. Jason Harwood: Yep. Yep. And that, and then it'll be, there's another wave of free agency rate after the draft, after teams rosters get a little more strained out. So quarterbacks, obviously we've got Jared Goff, Teddy Bridgewater. We're going to add one more, either through the draft or, you know, we're going to have someone in here that could throw passes. ⁓ so I don't think there's really too much to talk about there. ⁓ back. think we're almost ⁓ You got Pacheco, you got Jabari Small. Now, Kai Robachaw is listed on our roster. I could see maybe him getting caught and adding someone else in there. Jacob sailors is on there as soon as I can obviously Jameer Gibbs. So I, there might be one guy that they add in here, but I don't expect too much change in there. You on board with that Jacob? Yeah. Jacob Litton: Same Jabari small Robuchon. I mean that those are ones where you know if there's an undrafted free agent that they like that's out there It's a running back and they you know kind of need to make some room for it Maybe one of those guys gets pushed out Jason Harwood: Yep. see that. So wide receiver, got Meeks, Lee Cunningham, Dominic Glovitt, Tom Kennedy, Tesla, James and Williams, and Amon Ron, then obviously we added Dorch today. I still think we might add one in there and maybe some, you know, a kick return. But I think it's going to be an undrafted free agent. That's the way I feel right now. I don't know if we're going to, unless there's someone in the draft they really like, I don't really see them adding too much in the draft. Jacob Litton: I don't see them drafting receiver either. I think one, you might even have two, but I think they're both gonna be undrafted guys. Jason Harwood: Yep. the way I feel like you're definitely set at the top end. You're hoping Meeks or Love It has developed a little bit. And then obviously at Dorch, you know, I think set there. Tight end. We've had Conklin. Brock Wright's obviously there. We got Sam Laporta and they got Tom Gordon and Zach I think we're going to have an undrafted guy in here. ⁓ Honestly, the Dark Horse's Wright could be cut. And then we add someone else. Like I could see us doing that and then drafting someone if there's a tight end we'd like a little bit later on. Brock Wright could be gone after this year, especially with Adan of Conklin. I don't know. That's way I feel. Jacob Litton: I agree, cost-effective move as well. Jason Harwood: Yep. so as far as offensive line, I don't want to get too far into this, but I think we're going to add three or four more offensive lines. Definitely at the top end of the draft, we're adding a tackle, right? I mean, I think we're all in agreement that we're going to first or second round pick is going to be a tackle, but we also need some guard help to, ⁓ maybe some Feldman in there and then maybe a, even a late center. I didn't, you I don't know what the, I think Kate Mazes is obvious. I was centered, but he's only going to be here for a couple of years. could be a late round guy you want to draft, a lot of times centers go undrafted too. So I would expect if it's a center, it's probably going to be undrafted, but it could be a late round guy. Jacob Litton: Yeah, I mean, the guards that we have, Miles Frazier, Mahogany, Juice and Tate Rattledge. mean, if we went into the season with those guys at guard and then maybe, you you get undrafted people too. I think I would be okay with that. Having a competition for those spots amongst those four. Absolutely have to have a tackle, at least one. Jason Harwood: Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't mind just one more guard. And I'm that we're going to draft someone. I think Miles is, hopefully he's made some development. Some people are iffy on Christian Mahogany. We'll see how he develops. Tate is going to be good. And we don't know what we have with Jules Scruggs yet. Second round pick. He's a former second round pick. Let's get him in here. Maybe if he gets stability and he's... Jacob Litton: Right. Jason Harwood: doing guard, he's, it'll be all right. But you know, it was rough in the Texans, but their whole line was rough. So when they have bad grades and everybody's bad, that to me, that's tough. When you don't trust the guy next to you, it's hard to have good, offensive line play. It really is. Yup. All right. So edge, obviously we got Hassaneen, Hutchinson, Wanham. We kind of already talked about that we're going to have to add, I mean, we're going to add like four, four more guys. Jacob Litton: Damn. 100%. Yes. Jason Harwood: you know, not that they were to carry it into the season, but up to the 90 man, you're going to add like four five more edges. Now they could be defensive line slice edge, or even linebackers that could play edge too. there's a lot of like, you know, leeway there. I think it's going to be at least one or two more free agents that we get. And then it's, I'm that there's a good, someone that we could draft higher up in the draft too. Jacob Litton: Right, yes please. Just a funny, interesting note is that Aleem's cap hit ⁓ more than the rest of the defensive line combined this year. Jason Harwood: Well, more than it's by like multiples of income or are you including edge or yeah. Yeah, okay Jacob Litton: Well, Hutch, yes, Hutch is 10, Hutch is 10 million. But then other than that, DJ Wannum is six, Tyleek's 3.7. Everybody else is hovering around one. So altogether, they're still not quite to Aleem's cap hit. That's just funny. Well, it's kind of funny, but it also kind of shows that we don't have enough edge or we don't have enough defensive linemen on this team right now. Jason Harwood: Yeah, I know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I will say that a name that we haven't talked about much and I'm kind of curious how his camp's going to look as a Mackay Wingo. He was injured for a lot of last for camp of last year and then kind of came in the season was enacted like was active for game played quite a few snaps for like one game and then was basically a healthy scratch for the rest of the season. I've heard conflicting stuff from some of the beat writers about him doing really good in practice, like what they're hearing. They can't see practice so they don't really know. But then also other people say, you know, that's just talk. So I don't know if that's true, but I'm really, I'm really wondering where they're going to put Wingo on this line. Smaller guy, you know, obviously going to be in there for the run, but can he, can he provide some pass rush on pass rush downs? That's, that's where I'm at on that. ⁓ any elder guys you want to talk about on, on here, Jacob for line. Jacob Litton: I think that it's probably Wingo's only 23 years old, but it feels like obviously like this is last chance He might not make the team, you know, what are we doing with them? And if you don't if it's because he's smaller, I mean We are the ones that drafted him right like you drafted him for this spot. You knew what size he was What did you what were we expecting? know, the whole Wingo stuff is so weird Jason Harwood: All right. I agree. And that's why I think it's a wild card. Like they had to have a plan for him is he just did they think he was going to get bigger after they got, know, like he's going be able to put on muscle and be able to even the smaller size be able to add to his frame. I I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's you're in that tweener stage, right? All right. Quarterback room. I think you and I are both in agreement. We're going to need to add some Jacob Litton: At least 300 pounds, but he's only six foot tall. you know, what do you, what do you want him to do? Jason Harwood: between quarterback and safety, we're going to have to add some more bodies in here for sure. ⁓ especially with the injury history of, know, some of these guys, rake straw, ⁓ Tarrion DJ Reed even got injured last year. ⁓ so I expect, yeah, Dorsey. Yes, exactly. So, you know, I got McCreary, Whiteside, Dorsey, rake straw, Rock, Tarrion Arnold, DJ Reed. I'm comfortable going in the season, like outside of the legal stuff with Tarrion, I'm comfortable with Tarrion and DJ being our starters. I really am. Jacob Litton: Dorsey. Jason Harwood: Like I know that people are down on, on Tarion, but I, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with Rock being, well, you know, number three, I'm comfortable with that. If Rake's straw can provide something that would be really, really helpful, especially with McCreary coming in for Nickel. If Rake's straw and McCreary go at it for Nickel, we'll see. But I, I'm not as down on this room as I know a lot of people are. ⁓ but also I'm not a Tarion. Yeah. ⁓ Jacob Litton: People are just down on Tarion. But I mean, he's he also still has not been charged or anything, right? So it's like if you think if something was going to come of this, it would have already happened. But he's got the injury history, which is the other, you know, the injury from last year, which is concerning. Ennis, though, man, when we saw Ennis, like I've seen with my own eyes, he did decently well at training camp. He showed flashes. He was able to intercept the ball like he was doing OK. And just so tough that he's not been able to get out there. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jacob Litton: ⁓ but you know, unfortunately, some players are just injury prone and they've been various injuries. It's not always the same stuff that he's aggravating either. So it's just terrible, but he's 24 years old and I, I really feel like if he can stay healthy, if he can get on the field, he could make an impact. It's just, it seems to be a big ask of him to stay healthy and stay out there. Jason Harwood: I agree. you know, some of those guys are, like you said, just like that injury problem. also I will tell you, remember he missed that time with the shoulder and then he actually came back for the practice that you and I were at. And you could tell that he was laboring, right? Which tells me one thing, number one, he's willing to, you know, bite through the injury. Number two tells me that he wants to play this game. And number three, he knew his, he wasn't guaranteed, like he was going to make the roster, but he wanted to get some playing time. Like he's not going to put his body through that if he was everything, anything was, he thought was given to him because of him being a second round pick. ⁓ he was, he was really trying to make an impact. Unfortunately, I think he tried to play through the injury and it just got worse. And then he had to miss the season. Jacob Litton: he also has that same chip on his shoulder where he you know a lot of mocks had him go on round one and then he falls and goes in round two. He's one to prove these people wrong and he just can't get out there. Jason Harwood: can't get out of his own way. As far as safety goes, you got Lauren Strickland, Thomas Harper, Izzy and Kirby Joseph and Brian Branch. I'd be really happy with this if we didn't have the injury worry about Kirby and Brian really, because I'm comfortable with Thomas Harper being back there. I'm curious what Izzy can provide. I do like that sign and gives us a little depth in there. would feel You know who I didn't put on there was Dan Jackson. Dan Jackson's in there too, so I must have missed him. don't, Dan Jackson's small guy. don't really have too much that I... Jacob Litton: Did he get waved with an injury settlement or did he actually go on true IR? Jason Harwood: He went on IR. I'm almost positive that maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's why he's not listed on here, but everyone's listened Dan Jackson. So I think that he went on like didn't wave him. ⁓ So. Kirby's kind of said some ⁓ things lately about the injury. I we know until the season goes and obviously with Brian, we won't know. So. If ⁓ we into the season and they both can't play, then this room is. ⁓ Jacob Litton: Okay. Okay. Exactly. Jason Harwood: I'm not happy with this. need, we're going to have to add another couple of bodies in there. I am happy with Thomas Harper though, especially if he's safety three. I'm really okay with that, to be honest with you. So that's kind of where we're at. We're going to, I think we're going to add three more defensive backs, either safety, cornerback, somewhere in there is combination. That's where I think we're going to add on that. All right, Jacob, let's move to extension talk. I think that... Jacob Litton: Right. Jason Harwood: I'm curious of where you're at with some of this and where the numbers that you came up with. I think before we get to that, let's talk a little bit about our current cap situation this year and what it's looking like next year that may frame some of our talk and frame people's expectations to what to expect the Lions to do. As of right now, now we have $27.2 million in cap space. However, that doesn't include the DJ YNAM deal because we don't know how that breaks down yet. Teddy Bridgewater, DeMont Clark, or the Dorch deal. Those are not listed, but everybody else that we've signed so far, that we're at 27.2 million. We also have nine draft picks spot track based on where those draft picks are. Now we could trade and move around, so this may alter it, but they estimate around 12.6 million of our draft space, or our cap space we're gonna have to use to sign our draft picks. So, and then we're going to have undrafted people on top of that, which isn't going to take a ton, but you will use some cap space for that. But as a, you figure we got about around, you know, after all that, I would say we have about 12 million in cap space. ⁓ and you need to keep some during the season for injury replacements and stuff like that, which is right around 12 million. So right now we have just enough to sign, you know, our draft picks ⁓ know, what we're going to need during the season. So means we're gonna have to do some more restructuring to get there, which is not uncommon. So I mean, it's not it's not a bad thing. And we have guys that we can restructure, Pene and Amon Ra, even Jared Goff further if we need to. Where this leads us to next year, 2027. As of right now, we have $70.2 million in cap space. However, we only have 26 players signed last year, but that does include Jack Campbell and Jumeir Gibbs fifth year option. But we have space next year, but we, I mean, we have you less than a half a team signed for after this year. So a lot of holes to fill. So I think where I want to start on this, Jacob, is the two guys that earned the last year of their deal that don't have a fifth year option are Brian Branch and Sam Laporta. Where I'd like to start with is Brian Branch. His last year of this deal is obviously this year. He's got the injury we're dealing with. So that kind of puts, you know, a question mark in this, but his cap hit this year is 6.5 million. Jacob Litton: Yeah, right. A lot of holes to fill. Jason Harwood: Do you think the Lions, my first question is, do you think he gets an extension for the Lions? I think that's an answer for Yost. That's an obvious that I think, right? I mean, I'm saying yes, he's going to get an extension. Do you think it happens this year? When do you think it happens? Jacob Litton: Right. Absolutely. 100%. I, in my opinion, I think that this might play out similar to how the Aiden Hutchinson deal did where we wait until he gets back out on the field. Right now, you know, the things that I look for when I'm looking at that is like, is their price tag going to go up considerably higher, you know, later? Like, you know, would it benefit us to get it done right now? Or is it going to cost us that much more if we wait? And also, Are there other players, you know, going to be signing contracts soon that are going to be like outbidding or like, you know, raising the bar like Hutch and Parsons kind of thing with branch. The other people that are going to be free agents are Derwin James and Jesse Bates are the top two names. I think branches on Derwin James level, right? I mean, that's right where he's at. And Derwin James is one of the higher paid safeties. The concern there is the injury that just happened. Jason Harwood: Yep. Jacob Litton: And then when you factor in also that we just gave Kirby an extension, know, we can't have two 20 million dollar a year safeties that can't get on the field. So in my opinion, I think that branch, we kind of wait and see. Maybe it's during training camp, but I kind of feel like it might be in the middle of the season. I don't want it to be when the season is over, because then I feel like might be some sort of situation where branch wants to explore his options and. see how high he can drive this price tag, you know, because he's earned it. If he comes back and plays at the level they did last year, he absolutely has earned a big contract. Where are you at with this? Jason Harwood: Right, real quick. Dan Pass says that that feels low. He's talking about my cap number. I got that number on spot track, Dan, and I looked at it this morning and I also checked it on over the cap and it's right there. We did roll it. He said we rolled over $20 million, but we were under we were like over the cap. So we needed to make those hits. And then you got to remember Taylor Decker is a $9.4 million dead cap hit in that. that's where we're at right now. So Back to your Brian Branch stuff. Okay, I think there's two factors here that you're going to look back. Is the injury to Brian Branch and the injury to Kirby Joseph. We could decide that we're going to cut bait with Kirby Joseph after next year. And I think in that case, then your apps, if, if Brian Branch comes back healthy or looking like he's got to develop, like this is not going to be a long-term injury. He still has an explosion. Now he may not be a hundred percent for the whole year, but I think know you get the idea like you see him at practice He you know, we're not worried about this being a long-term injury and he's gonna be able to be the Brian Branch of old I think if that factor clears up and then Kirby looks like he's on the decline then ⁓ I first see a Brian Branch extension before the end of the year Kirby comes back healthy and looks like the Kirby of old I Still think they want to sign Brian Branch, but they may they may have this may linger a little bit longer, maybe even two after the season. before, if they really want, if the lines have shown, if they really want their player, they don't even let them get to the free agency portion. So we'll see. But I think there's just two factors right now we don't know. Like we have to look at those two injuries and I think they both go hand in hand. And I think it's, if Kirby comes back healthy, like you said, it's going to be really hard to justify. 20 million for two safeties back there. 20 million each for two safeties. Jacob Litton: Right. But when they're both playing at a high level, if Kirby is playing at a high level still, I mean, they're two of the best safeties in the league. They're both, you know, definitely worth it. It's just where do you, you know, how do you find the room in the cap? Where do you make that money so that you can afford to pay both of them? Or do you have to just choose one or the other? Do you have to let Branch walk because we've already got Kirby? Right now, if you had your choice, let's say Kirby's Kirby and Branch both fully healthy injuries didn't happen. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. People are- Mm-hmm. Yeah, well. Jacob Litton: Would you rather have Kirby or Branch? I think I agree. Jason Harwood: I even say even now looking at like, obviously the injuries could go either way, but Kirby's injury outlook is different than Brian Branch's injury outlook. Kirby's looks like this is something that is not going to ever go away. Jacob Litton: I said, they're both healthy, not including the injuries though. ⁓ Jason Harwood: I know no no no no I'm just saying when we look at it though like and we still have to decide between the two players I'm looking at like not hypothetical like you're looking at I'm looking like real life like I got to decide between the two players and they're both like say last next year They both play to their full potential both of them Brian branch comes back He's at all what I believe is an all-pro potential Kirby Joseph obviously all-pro potential they both come back next year I say And I had to choose between them. cut Kirby loose and I, I, I'd sign Brian branch. That's what I would do because I think Brian branch potentially is not going to have a career ending knee injury, whereas I think Kirby is that knee injury is not going to get better. It's a chronic issue as far as like what I'm hearing. It could be up in the air, but I just believe that that's a more worrisome injury than Brian branches. see. ⁓ the other option. So. ⁓ Let me real quick. What do you think he's got a garner like for a contract like this? If you had a guess, I don't know. Did you do any numbers or anything like that? Jacob Litton: Yeah, I mean, if he so here's the deal. If he's playing at the level that he did before, I think that his floor has to be 20. But I think that the realistic number is probably closer to 24 or 25. And I think that that you know, is going to be it might be out of our price range. I'm not sure what what number do you have? Jason Harwood: Mm. Okay. So I'm considering the injury, I think Antoine Whitfield Jr. is where I put Brian Branch at. And it's going to eclipse that, but I had like four years, $80 million, $48 million guaranteed is what I had for Branch. But I think that's low end. And I went low just because of the Achilles injury. And we're not going to know. And I think the league depends on how it plays out this year. If he comes back in October, and balls out like the back half of the year, then he's going to get paid. If he comes back in November and we get limited like less than a half a season look at him and he doesn't look as explosive, then it might be like a shorter deal, like a one or like a two year deal that is has potential with incentives for him making there and then him still getting a payday in his prime. The other option is Jacob Litton: You can still do the two year deal for, you know, average annual value of 20 though, right? I mean, you could do that. You also could tie in with the injury and stuff. What if it's the opposite? And I know we talked about like they're both healthy, both are good. What let's say Kirby this year is the same as last year where the knee is constantly bothering him. He's up and down. He's kind of not practicing. Maybe he plays in a few games, doesn't play. Branch comes back in November. It's a little bit slow, not quite the same, you know, doesn't Jason Harwood: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Jacob Litton: doesn't play in all the games. What if they're both having these concerns? Then what do you do with Branch? Jason Harwood: I still. Jacob Litton: Cause he's still, you know, like, Hey, what I put on paper, I'm worth $20 million. Do you throw $20 million at him? That's a lot harder to do. Jason Harwood: If he comes back in that situation that you're saying, I think the league's going to be weary about giving a guy $20 million. I personally think that we're higher on Branch than the rest of the league. think Brian Branch is known as a hothead around the league just because of the suspension and some of the other stuff. I'm sure that there are scouts that know what type of player he is. I think that there are other question marks about, you know, him doing, you know, getting head hunting and stuff like that, like stuff that he's done in the past. So that might limit him and especially with the injury. I still think we'd be the front runner to know how special Brian Branch is. We've seen him in practice every day. We, we know what kind of person he is. Everybody else has to assume what kind of person he is because, know, there he's not in the locker room with them. The other option that I think we're going to talk about for each one of these guys is the franchise tag option. Now we have not as a franchise used that like in a while. We haven't really had a, you know, the need to use that or it just hasn't worked out, but it's, it's a possibility for all these guys. Just, just so we put it out there, the franchise tag option for this year for safety. So was 20.8 million. So, you know, it's going to be higher next year. So you're looking at 21, 22, if we want to franchise branch for the following season. So not next year, but the year after that would be. So you could, you know, if you think he's on the come on the injury, you're not going to use a franchise on anything, anybody else, you could franchise buying branch. And then that way it gives you another year to look at it. And then you signed to his contract and you're still in the $20 million a year ballpark. Right? So that's an option. Jacob Litton: Right, might a ⁓ good option for us. Last player the Lions franchise tagged was Ziggy Ansa in 2018. Jason Harwood: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's been it's been a hot minute, right? And, yeah. All right, Sam Laporte. Let's move on to the next our second round. Jepic isn't eligible for a fifth year option. This is the last year of his deal. Obviously, he's coming off an injury to a back injury, which could be worrisome for a tight end that you're asking to block a lot like he you know, he's he wants to be one of these tight ends that does it all. I think they you it is noticeable that after Laporte went down, our run game took a hit too. And so I think that that's very noticeable. Now Brock Wright went out the same time. So you were down to your third string tight end. So that played into it. But I think that Sam provides good blocking. Obviously he is a really good third down threat. Our offense took a hit when he left too. So his year on his deal is 6.7 million. That's it. Are you, are, what's, just more likely to you? them doing branch or laporta. Jacob Litton: I think Laporta is more likely. Jason Harwood: Mmm. Jacob Litton: I think that they want to with Branch, but I think there's bigger question marks with Branch than Laporta. ⁓ I think Laporta is top five tight end in the league. So right now, the other tight ends, like I said with the last one, I kind of look and see who else is going to be up for a contract. TJ Hockinson, Kyle Pitts, Dallas Goddard, Michael Mayer, Tucker Craft. Those are the guys that are going to be signing contracts next year as well. ⁓ Laporta has already outperformed all of those guys. Jason Harwood: Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jacob Litton: Now, if you don't include last year because of the injuries to Laporta and then Kraft was injured too. But like the years before that, Laporta has more receptions, more yards, more touchdowns than anybody else on that list. Obviously, you've got the injury concern. So maybe they have to play with like guaranteed money or contract language or whatever. But when you look at where the league's at right now with the tight end contracts, Hockenson is making 16.5. That's the floor for Laporta 16.5. Trey McBride and George Killeher at 19. That's the question mark is do you hit 19? Do you go above 19? You've got the injury and everything going on. I think a fair number for Laporta would probably be like 17 and a half. Jason Harwood: Okay. Yeah, I think, I think he's got to come in closer to Trey McBride numbers, especially with the cap going up, you're going to have that naturally going up. The injury is is ⁓ ⁓ going to going to be the wild card here, just like we have Brian. So we're just, you know, obviously, we could be wrong, and he misses some of the year or he doesn't look like the same player, then then all this goes out the window. I think the pet sing option what he did with Trey McBride, you know, your hope of the that Jacob Litton: What do you got though? Jason Harwood: you know, can, you know, Laporta has this, you know, obviously the weapons are a lot different between the two franchises. So there's only one ball and we got to get all our guys. you know, I don't think they sign him before the year, ⁓ before I think it's a Brian Bryant situation. We're looking to see how it goes. ⁓ I see them wanting to extend it during the year. ⁓ I the franchise option is a lot more likely for Laporta, ⁓ just because of where the number lands. then we could you know, there's also the injury in there So the franchise like Kyle Pitts signed this year, I a conflicting number So like spot track at 15 million for Kyle Pitts contract, but sports illustrated said the that the It was 16.3 million. So I'm not sure but you know, we're in that range You're under 19 million So you're gonna get it cheaper than you think that you're gonna get him on a yearly rate because you think I think we're closer to 19 You know, we're probably in the 18 19 million a year ballpark, think for Laporta. So I franchising might, you know, we, I think we're going to use the franchise tag next year. I just don't know on who we're going to use it on. and so don't know. Jacob Litton: seems like it would make sense to use the franchise tag, I mean, you know, the hope is that both of these guys are healthy and they come back looking like they did before and that this is a real, you know, we're trying to make sure we keep both of them. You don't want another year of, you know, will they play, won't they play, you know, every time you see them on the injury report, it's like, man, please let them, them come back, let them practice today. Jason Harwood: I Yeah, I still think that he ends up like Isaiah likely got like he, you know, he has, he got 13.3 million, which is an internet like that. That raises the bar on their cow pits. I know he had an all pro season last year, but he was extremely frustrating the previous couple of years, whether that was from offensive football or whatever. Uh, you know, I, I could understand why you're going to franchise. You got to make sure Kyle Pitts can do it two years in a row. Sam Laporta. I know that his, he didn't match his rookie. stats but as a player and we saw what he added on third down last year he just has an inability to find the open space which is you know what petting is going to do is going to find him open space and he's really good after the catch which i think is very underrated in sam laporte's game is that he's really good after the catch finding space and i think that adds like you know that's that's not george kiddle level as far as like what he does after the ball know, Kiddles also, you know, very injury prone guy just because of the way he plays the game too. So I'm not, I could see a franchise happen with Sam Laporta. I know that you said that you think that branch over Laporta or Laporta over branch. think it, I don't know. I think it's over, I don't know. I love Sam, but I also think you could draft a tight end too. And Ampio like the usually, especially right now there's, you know, replacements out there. However, we have nothing on our roster right now that could even come close to. matching Laporta's production. So that's something too. All right, let's move on to Jumeirah Gibbs. So he obviously, first of all, pick has a fifth year option. This year, he has $5.7 million cap it. His fifth year option is 14.2. Is that what you had? Yeah, 14.2, well, 14.3 if you round up. 14.3 million would be his fifth year option, which the lions are obviously going to pick that up. ⁓ that they, that's, think after the draft, they, man, I think they could announce it anytime, but I think they have until like the first week of May or something to announce that that's to happen. They're going to get them for the fifth year option. So do you think, now, you know, we're talking to the next two guys, Gibbs and Campbell are healthy. We don't have to worry about injuries with them, at least not that we're aware of any offseason surgeries or anything like that. So I think these guys could get, they could get extensions before the draft in this offseason. Do you think that Gibbs gets, when do you think he signs his extension? If you think he's going to sign an extension. Jacob Litton: Yeah, these guys are both healthy. They're also both like top five players in their position and are going to be costing a lot of money. That very hard for me on Gibbs. I want Gibbs. He's a dynamic player. And now he's even more important that Montgomery is gone. Right. So ⁓ want Gibbs. I want him to be here. ⁓ I want to throw 20 million dollars at him right now before the season starts and incorporate his. ⁓ his fifth year and everything. I don't know. I honestly don't know if I want to commit that much to him. It's a really tough situation. I kind of feel like just let him play out the fifth year and then see, you know, roll with it next time. also got Bijan Robinson, that contract's coming and you know that Bijan is going to be getting probably similar. He might reset the market with the Saquon thing too. It might be one of those things, the first guy that, or the second guy that signs gets more than the first guy that signs. So you got the benefit of getting ahead of it there. But this is just a toss up for me. Obviously, I want him on the team, but it's a lot of money for a running back. He's going to be utilized even more than he was last year because we have to. Yeah, I don't know. This is a real toss up for me. Where are you at with this? Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. It's. Yeah. So you've kind of, I'm going to elaborate on a couple of your points there. Running back position, just in general, I have really tough time committing money to that position. Now you could structure the contract almost similar to Kirby Joseph where they're getting an option bonus each year. So you have a chance to get out of it if an injury happens. And I think you almost have to structure a running back, especially someone like Gibbs like that because If God forbid he gets a knee injury and he loses even a couple steps, he becomes a lot less dangerous. you take his home run threat away or decrease that, that's dangerous. ⁓ mentioned before, I don't think he has, when I think of elite vision, I don't think that he has that. I maybe he could develop some patience, but... I, know, I, was a stat in the Baltimore game that they said that he hits the line, like either the fast or second fastest, like miles per hour in the league. And when you watched him at David Montgomery, the reason why David Montgomery would sometimes get more yards than him is that David Montgomery would just pause at the line sometimes let, you know, a crease develop and then get the yards. Whereas Gibbs seems to like just sometimes run right into a tackle. And, you know, just because he's trying to utilize that speed. The thing is that I also worry about is you also said it is last year we increased his, we increased his usage a lot. the things that we didn't do in his first couple of years in league is that he was splitting time with Dave Montgomery. So the reducing wear and tear. We've, we, you know, it was obviously like 75, 25 last year using Gibbs and we're getting Pacheco. I think it's going to be that or even more. And we're asking to be out there and like passing down and everything like that. You start increasing that wear and tear injuries will happen. It's just going to happen. The more times you touch the ball, increased risk. So that's why I don't want to sign him to a long-term deal. And I think that there are options out there to do this. I've kind of went through this and I'll see what you think about this. But if he were to sign a deal, I think he'd right now command four years, 84 million. And I think he gets 60 million guaranteed. I think he beats the Saquon deal. I really do. that people around the league know that he's there. And I think Bijan signs for a very similar contract. Now you say the rights should be signed before, the advantage is sign them early before Bijan. Bijan paid more and the contract looks better. But I ⁓ don't if I want to do that with a running back. Jacob Litton: You know, the thing about most of the running back deals anymore that a lot of them are only two or three years. So I mean, if you sign a four year deal like that, that's also something you can have incentive leading or have different outs or different things like that. I mean, if that was the exact contract, nobody would be able to look at it and be you know, that's not fair. He's not worth that money. That's not the question at all. It's just when you're trying to build the rest of the team to you've got so much. mean, knock on wood. Like, you know, what if something happens to him this year, next year, if he starts missing games, like you said, if he loses a step, that's huge. And I know like the biggest, the Saquon thing is the biggest example, but I mean, Philadelphia has an out, I think every year, like they could get rid of Saquon every year if they wanted to. But it's like almost all, I think all but like six million of Saquon's contract was guaranteed. So they only did two years, but now they can just incorporate that as dead cap. and spread it out over whatever the next two years or the point year, whatever it is. So do we do that, though? If you're Gibbs, are you OK with signing a two year contract? Chances are you're wanting that. You you're wanting the four year. You're wanting the first big one. You've earned it. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Yep. Well, the advantage of doing that is that we can incorporate the fifth year, just like we've done with Panay and done with Aiden. And you spread that cap head out and there's some cap manipulation in there. The thing is that I just have the guaranteed money is where the sticking point would be for me. Do you give him like million guaranteed and then do roster options later on, kind of like what you did with Kirby, so that you have a get out? I just have trouble with that. Now, let's talk about the franchise tag. So the projected value of this year for running back is 14.5 million, which is considerably less than the 20 million that we're projecting for him, right? It's going to go up as these running backs sign, but let's just say for next year that it's 16 million. Let's just say 16 million. You would your fifth year option and then you could franchise him. right and 28 so that means we'd have him for three more season that would carry him up through the 20 so he'd be 26 at that time you could franchise a guy twice and the stipulation is that it's got to be so the first time you franchise someone it's like the average of the top five guys if you use the highest franchise tag it's the top five guys at your position or 120 percent of your previous salary So he'd have to get, so if he got the fifth year option would be 14.2, the franchise for 2028 would be 120 % of that, it'd be 17 million. And then you could franchise him twice. The second franchise would be 20.4 million, and that'd in his year 27, when he'd be 27. So you could have him for essentially three years, the fifth year option, the year after, the year after, and then include next year, that'd be four years. from now. So you'd have him up to his age 27 and going into his 28 year old season and you'd pay three years, 51.6 million. So you're paying like a lot less than 20 million average for those three years. And then you get them all the way up to when he turns 28, which you know, obviously with the running back going up to that 30 years is where you started seeing the decline. So I mean, that's either Jacob Litton: That would be a very smart, very smart move and very doable, like ⁓ on the surface for the Lions. But what does that say about your organization and about taking care of your players and players wanting to come here if you just use those franchise tag multiple times? Jason Harwood: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. 100 % and that's where you're at. Like there's cons besides the money because I think it's no brainer to go with this way, but satisfaction is number one because lines of this regime, especially ⁓ paid players that, ⁓ are what would they'll, you know, they're cornerstone players ⁓ ⁓ you know, they've shown that that you do what you want. They're going to do that. So I, I don't think they would go this way, but this seems like the business way, the way to go. ⁓ but this team's going to have to do creative things to make it under the cap and field our, you the team, if we're going to assign all these players. The other with doing it this franchise way ⁓ that you can't manipulate the cap at all. Like that money just goes straight against the cap. Whereas if we sign them to like one of these contracts, you could add void years to spread this cap hit out ⁓ you know, your cap hit, even though we're, you know, he's value is getting 21 million in this contract really is cap hit maybe 9 million for the first year and then we're back back load the contract you can't do that with this franchise route so you pay less money overall but you can't manipulate the cap bar because you can't do franchise them and then add a void here you can't do that so there are drawbacks in that as far as like the way you do a cap but Jacob Litton: I just think that that's terrible. I said, on the surface, like number wise and everything, that's all great. That's terrible for morale. And I feel like that's when you have a situation where the holdout is going to happen or where he's like, I'm not going to play on a franchise tag. I'm not going to do that. And then that just killer for the locker room and for everyone that's involved. Jason Harwood: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Dan ⁓ says, do you think we're a franchise to kind of tag kind of team? and I'd say the answer is no, but that doesn't mean that we won't utilize it. Yeah. And I think that this is a very unique situation. Like these four guys coming and you got two of the injuries. you're, you're, you know, there's some question marks there. you, you, if you feel they're all four cornerstone guys, you may have to do. Jacob Litton: Not until we have to be. Jason Harwood: some things that you're not 100 % count. It just gives you a franchise tag. also does like that is also a negotiated play. Like, oh, you're not going to sign this. We're just going to franchise tag you and then, you know, let it play out. Like you have that, like that helps the Lions as far as negotiating to have that in their back pocket. Like we could just franchise tag you. Yeah, I agree. And, um, but. Jacob Litton: Yeah, but that's also like the dirty business side of it Jason Harwood: I just think that sometimes you have do those things. I think tagging is definitely on the table. I don't think the scenario that I played out with, doing double franchise tag gonna happen. We did that with Sue, right? And then basically priced this out that we couldn't, obviously he didn't want anything to do with us after that. And ⁓ I don't expect that happen, but... I'm saying with a running back, that may be the smart way to go. just, I really hesitate giving a running back a longterm deal. It go sideways real fast. Jacob Litton: Yeah, that's why, you know, I was very conflicted on that one. The next one, not so much conflict for me, though. Jack Campbell, the other first round pick, you know, sign him now. Get it done whenever you can. He's a top player. I mean, he's done everything that's asked of him. He's probably worth like the, you know. So we both agree, definite resign. Jason Harwood: Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. 100%. Jacob Litton: you know, probably like a decent long term contract. What do you think the average annual right now Fred Warner is the highest average of 21 million a year. How much do you think Jack gets? Jason Harwood: Yeah. Yeah. So let's first, let's just run down his number. So we're all on the same page. $4.7 million cap hit this year. This plays into it, Jacob, because of how linebackers are kind of lumped together with some of these edge players, like your Brian Burns and stuff like that. The cap hit next year for fifth year option is 21.9 million. So that automatically puts him above, you know, Fred Warner on that. So I I think that that reason why it pushes it like that this deal is going to happen the first out of all these four, this one's going to happen, happen the first first way it happens. think Jack wants to be here. We've given Jack the defense. I think it's mutual. He's an all pro player. He's on the ascend. He's just the type of he he's a lion's linebacker. I just love it. So, you asked me what I think he's going to get, right? ⁓ so I have projected Four years, 86 million, 58 million guaranteed is what I wrote down. ⁓ Jacob Litton: So you think just above, that's just above 21 million a year then, right? So that would just make him the highest player, like just barely. Jason Harwood: I think he's going to get, I think he's going to, he's going to eclipse Fred Warner money. Now it could be more depending on how much they project the cap to go up next year. ⁓ but I think that this, I would be shocked if this doesn't happen before the season that, know, them, them wrapping this up. I, ⁓ could see this happen before the draft. I, I think this is cut and dry unless there's an injury, ⁓ that we don't know, like an off season surgery that he had that they're waiting on. That could be the only thing, but obviously he was healthy through all last year. So I don't think that that's going to happen, but that's why I think he's at where, where do you think he's at? Am I in the ballpark where you're at or? Jacob Litton: Yeah, no, I think that he I think the floor is 21. I think 21.5 would be a pretty good deal for Lions of Steel. The player Jack Campbell gets what he deserves. Like, you know, he gets the highest paid or he gets up there. I'm hoping it's not considerably more than that, you know, depending on what his agent's asking for. He's asking for 24, 25 million a year. The fifth year option for Jack Campbell, if he would have had more than one Pro Bowl as a linebacker is 26.8 million a year. Jason Harwood: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Jacob Litton: And that's where I think that you've had that thing where players have to fight if they're defined as a linebacker or an edge because they get so much more money if they're a linebacker, I believe is the case. yeah, he deserved it. He's healthy. huge part of the defense, especially now that Anzaloni is gone. I think we need to pay him. We just need to make it happen sooner rather than later. Jason Harwood: Yeah. I agree. Franchise tagging is not an option for Jack because a franchise tag is 28.1 million, which is way more than, you what we're going to happen. think that, I think it makes sense to do it now. You get out of the fifth year option because the fifth year option, you're, I think you're paying him more than what I, what I'm projecting that he would make. You're locked into that, hitting the cap that year too. Like you can't, you know, spread that out. Can't do a void year. Jacob Litton: No, no, no, no, no. Jason Harwood: So I really think it's a no brainer to sign Jack Campbell. I think he's the first one out of these four to get the deal for multiple tutor reasons, but I think it's going to happen. And wouldn't be shocked if it happened before, the I would not shocked if that happened. Jacob Litton: You know, Panay and Amun Ra, their extensions happen right around draft time or right before draft time. But then you've got, you know, when we signed Hutch's extension, obviously it was way late in the season. ⁓ extension was like right before, that was like right before kickoff, was it not? Like, feel like ⁓ extension was like, right. ⁓ was like, okay, yeah, we've seen him in training camp. We know what's about to happen. We're going to sign him right now. But then, you know, Kirby. Jason Harwood: Yup. Jacob Litton: Carbys extension last year, which was a little bit different, but that was right around draft time as well. So I anticipate this happening probably within the next 30 days here, hopefully. Jason Harwood: I agree. in the way that you were looking at, we look at this, right. And we're like, all right, he's going to get the highest paid linebacker money, like in this class of linebacker, off ball linebacker, middle linebacker that, you know, Fred Warner type. If you look at the Amon Ra deal, if you look at the Panay deal, Aiden's probably going to look like this at one day. It, it looks like a steal. Like J Moe's deal looks really, really good when you still like Alec Pierce is getting you know, the money that he got like, you know, and you know, any of these guys, like if we do Gibbs, maybe that even looks like that you cause you know, you get the B John after that, you know, maybe if the Raiders turn around Ash and Gentie is ⁓ another guy that's in line, you know, those type, those type of players, you know, maybe they look different. Now Gibbs, think is Gibbs is unique because of how much he does in the passing game. There's not Jacob Litton: Exactly, yes. Jason Harwood: a lot of comparables with how much we used him in the past in game. Right. know, Christian McCaffrey, obviously, know, Alvin Camaro, but he's on the downside of his career. Saquon is using the passing game, not like Jamir is. I Jamir is, if he improves his routery, he's like almost another wide receiver out there, a lot wider receiver. So I think that that puts him in a unique category too. And, and will you look how many pass catches he caught last year? That, that's another factor. That's a lot of our offense. And maybe that's why the Lions would be willing to give him the four year 84 million. You know, I, I, don't know. I just hesitate to do that with, with the running back, especially when we're, you know, we're asking him to take so many hits. ⁓ you know, I don't know. We'll see. Jacob Litton: He's worth it. That's the thing. He's worth it. But that's like, where is this smart move? You know, that's where it's a toss up. It's not a question of like, does he command that much money? Yes, absolutely. Jason Harwood: Yes. It's. Yeah, I agree. It's the risk of the position. just is with me and just the type of running back that he is. We've seen so many running backs like Nick Chubb. Nick Chubb was all world running back and then he blows out his knee. he's barely holding on to second string with the Texans. It really happens really fast with these guys. But you look at Saquon. Saquon was very injured early on and then... ⁓ uh, you know, he had that breakout year with Philadelphia, but that wear and tear took hold and last year he wasn't as good, whether that was offensive line or not. Uh, Saquon just didn't have, you know, after he took all that wear and tear the previous year, he wasn't the same last year. Jacob Litton: I mean, that's just how, right? That's just how it works for the running backs. Ezekiel Elliott and the Cowboys, I mean, just burst onto the scene the same kind of way. And he had that whole like holdout. I don't remember if that was a franchise tag, but he had a holdout where, you know, he wasn't practicing with the team and everything. They give him a big contract. He never played up to it. You cannot carry, you cannot get 300 touches a year for, you know, five years in a row and not come away banged up repetitively every week like that. Jason Harwood: Yep, exactly. you could say with Gibbs, Gibbs is like one of those guys that can avoid hard contact where he's not, you know, Nick Chubb, Ezekiel, or guys that just run right into the pile, but just getting hit and banged up on every play. mean, it's a lot. All right. Before we take off here, Jacob, something that we were going to talk about the top of the show, but ⁓ want to talk about it right now. It's real quick. It's about these two different roster rules that we're talking about. The first one, Jacob Litton: Right. Jason Harwood: is very quick. The SEALs proposed about the video call with up to 500 restricted free agents during the two-day negotiation period. Currently, right now, they tried to do it where they could talk. It was between the teams and the agents. this point, just why do even have this tamper period? Just call it what it is. It's free agency. I mean, it's dumb. And then I... Jacob Litton: My thoughts exactly. What is the point of doing this? I don't like what who is benefiting? Why? I really like I don't know the reason I don't know what good reason they have for having all these contracts are, you know, announced and all this stuff, you know, can't become official until Wednesday. But you've got all these things dropping on Monday and Tuesday. And then especially I think this year they had like the temporary where they tried to do like this video call between the teams. But in the past, it really was just the teams and the agents. Can you imagine like, you know, the teams talking to the agent, the agents like, okay, yeah, we'll, we'll call you back. And then you got to wait for them to talk to their player and then get back in touch with you. You got to figure out contract details, you got to figure out what players want to be here. And you know, it's also like, let's say you've got two players, you're talking to this one, you really want this one, the other one's talking to a different team and signs elsewhere, because you have to play by these rules and you only have these five calls or, you know, the whole thing is just crazy to me. Jason Harwood: Yeah. I just think it's stupid and like I don't even like this tamper period. It's dumb. And then also you look at what the Max Crosby like potential fallout of that, like this trade falls through. They already agreed to these contracts. Like there's just so much stupid stuff in it. There, I don't think there was anybody that backed out of the free agent deal, but I think like last year or the year before, like there was a Cowboys player that backed out, went back to his team. Like it's, funky. I just, I think it's stupid. Jacob Litton: Who does it benefit? Jason Harwood: The other one that I would do on it that I think is also funky and stupid is the Browns proposal that you're allowed to trade up to draft picks up to five seasons in the future. Currently you're only allowed to trade like the next three years. The Browns want to do five years. I'm going let you, before I have my piece, what do you think about this trade proposal? Jacob Litton: Real quick, just that last player that you're talking about was Randy Gregory for the Cowboys because that was he signed extension with the Cowboys and that was announced on like a Monday or whatever. And then the like, think it was like a couple of days into the free agency thing. He changed his mind and signed somewhere else. But yeah, the whole this is hilarious that it's the Browns, you know, that proposed this right. Like, what are you guys trying to do? What do you how many more drafts are you trying to play around with? Why? Jason Harwood: Okay. Mm. Yes. Jacob Litton: I actually like that it's just three seasons ahead so that you can't get too far ahead and you can't like think about like the Vikings GM, you know, they moved on from their GM right now. What if he would have traded like, you know, the first round pick five years out from now and then whatever GM's got to take that job also has to immediately plan around the fact that, you know, four or five years from now, we don't even have these draft picks to play with. I don't like it. What are your thoughts? Jason Harwood: That. ⁓ Talk about derailing a franchise. why it's funny that the Browns project this. ⁓ Jacob Litton: Do you think they felt like they didn't give enough for Deshaun Watson? They were wanting to throw a few more first round picks. Jason Harwood: No, no, they want five first round picks for Miles Garrett. That's what they want. That's what they got. They're going to like, we're going to try Miles Garrett. We're going to do this rule and we're going to get them because yeah, that was my media thought is that they would screw themselves even more in the future by, you know, they would give up four or five first round picks for Deshaun Watson instead of, know, the three and all the money and all that stuff. Like, no, it needs to be three and that's it because you're going to have teams derailing their Jacob Litton: Yeah, right. Jason Harwood: their franchises and then you talk about parody it's gonna be really hard when your franchise gives up four or five first round picks. No, three years that's it. I don't want any trades like happen in the NBA either where you're like this is right protected from this you know like if it's a top five I don't want like any of that it's like so stupid yeah no like they need to no keep it the way it is. Jacob Litton: Absolutely not. Jason Harwood: And I know I it is. Jacob Litton: Five years is a long time. That's a very long time. Our draft pick five years ago in the 2021 draft was Panay. Jason Harwood: Yeah, I know. Jacob Litton: put that in perspective. That's how long five years go. like, there's potential like, you know what, we need to trade up for Panay and then we lose our fifth round pick in 2026 or first round pick in 2026. You'd you'd almost forget about it until that year. You're like, ⁓ crap, that's right. Jason Harwood: Yeah. Yeah, I just. Jacob Litton: Which in this case probably would have been okay, know, that's not majority of the time it's not. Jason Harwood: No, and I just, be interesting ⁓ what a team like the Rams would do, right? Cause they're all about trading their draft picks and they obviously have been successful. I think for most teams that it would be detrimental. The Ram, Lesney does an amazing job drafting late round picks. He just does, but as for team taking that, you're right. Like, and that would make it incredibly hard for, like you said, the next GM coming in, cause they're not going to look at that and be like, They're not going to take that into consideration when you take a job. When you take a job, expect a turnaround, regardless of what the situation is. They expect a quick turnaround and they're not going to be like, well, I'm sorry. We didn't have a traffic the whole time you were here, you know, for three or four years. I'm sorry. We've traded all those away, but we still expected you to turn this franchise around. yeah, ⁓ is a disaster. It should not happen. I'm hoping it gets laughed at. I hope that no one wants to do this because I think it's bad for NFL. Jacob Litton: Yeah, 100 % agree. Don't want any part of that. Jason Harwood: Yep. Nope. All right, man. It's been good talking football with you. I have a good time. I want to thank Dan for being on here. All the comments on there. Hopefully we answered your questions. It was a great show. I really liked the dialogue that we had on the extensions. I think that there's just so many nuances to on that. And I'm curious what other people think about it. So go to our Twitter page, comment on Spotify. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Are we way off base? Do you agree with us? other options that I miss? Did Jacob miss? What we think about? So I'd be curious to hear what you guys think about that. Jacob Litton: Absolutely. Jason Harwood: Okay, got anything else to take up? Jacob Litton: Nope, shouts out to Dan. Lots of comments in here. I didn't see most of these. Jason Harwood: Alright. Yeah. Next week. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot. Dan was busy. So next week, will not be on Wednesday. It's either gonna be Tuesday or Thursday. Jacob's going to Piston's game next week. So we don't really know and it might just depend on where where news hits and you know what our work schedule is. If I were to feel it out, it's probably gonna be Thursday of next week just because Jacob usually works late on Tuesday and give him more time to prepare. But we'll kind of just play it by ear, as of right now, if you guys have wanted to listen, it's Thursday, 9 p.m. is probably where we're gonna hit right now. we'll keep, follow us on Twitter, TalkingGripPod, and we will, I usually throw an update in there. yeah, for Jacob, I'm Jason. Let's go, Lions!