speaker-0: I think what this book, what you go into this book thinking it's going to be, is about modern day trad wise and a story about like a modern day trad wife and it's like a little bit normal, but like their real life, what they actually live versus what they're portraying online. Yeah, that's a theme of this book, but it's not what this book is about.

speaker-1: Hello. Hello. Welcome back to catching up with Liz and Abby. It's summer. Summer. Does it feel like what are your summer vibes? I'm actually curious.

speaker-0: I think I'm like starting to feel the vibes. And they're nice. The what like the weather has been good. It's not insanely hot and humid. We've had some days, but like overall it's been good. We wanna be outside. I'm like summer is like you wanna be outside. And I feel like every summer goes by and I'm like, damn, I didn't take advantage enough. So I'm trying to do that more. Nice and like start now because it's gonna be July soon. So

speaker-1: Nice. Yeah. I I have been feeling the summer vibes because well number one, as we'll hear, I traveled to Colorado last week. ⁓ but also there's I'm feeling the summer vibes here. I'm feeling that kind of like we're in a new season, it's feeling fun, I'm feeling active, I'm feeling like I'm just like wanting to do more things, like which isn't always how I feel here, 'cause summer here is a little bit like winter in the sense that I want to stay indoors because it's so fucking hot. But ⁓ right now I'm feeling the summer vibes. There's a little window right now.

speaker-0: Good feeling.

speaker-1: Is. It's a really All in my face. Tell me about your week.

speaker-0: It was nice. This week feels like it flew by. ⁓ but last week we went to the Poconos with my family. Which was really nice. It was like maybe like an hour and a half ish away. So everyone was kinda like in and out. Like I had a couple uncles come, my aunt came, some of my siblings, nieces, nephews, so but no one was there like the entire full time, really.

speaker-1: Amazing.

speaker-0: Everyone was in and out. So was just a lot of fun, very like chill, relaxed vibe. Rio had the best time every time every time he like would even if he was like upset, crying in the room or whatever, it'd take him out. He'd have like tears in his eyes and he'd look around and just be so happy and like smiling at everyone. So very sweet. He's just a very smiley boy. So and then it's funny because he does smile a lot, but Not like always at home, but there he was like always smiling at everyone new. And I like, ⁓ is this like a new thing? You're just always smiling. But no, we came back and he's like his normal self. But when he sees people, of course, he's smiley still. But I I just think he's a very sociable guy. He likes to be around people.

speaker-1: That sounds like Andrew to me. Minus the crying.

speaker-0: That is very true. Angie's definitely like right in the middle of an introvert extrovert.

speaker-1: Right. But when he's with people, he's peopling it up.

speaker-0: He is. Depends on the people you sometimes. But that's everyone. Let's be real.

speaker-1: Let's be real. But that's so nice, the poconos. What did you do while you were there? Did you just hang out around the house? Was there a lake? Was there a pond?

speaker-0: Yeah, we mostly hung out by the house and then the house was on like a lakeslash pond. ⁓ but it wasn't swimmable. So we just had like kayaks and fishing. Yeah. There was a fire pit, we played played spike ball and then like three minutes away, or like a twenty minute walk, there was a lake that had a cute little beach and a sand volleyball court. So we played some volleyball, wham a little bit. It was nice.

speaker-1: Nice. Hell yeah.

speaker-0: I would say on a on a lake scale, as far as lakes go. Some lakes are like a ten out of ten, crisp, clean, beautiful. I'm thinking like Lake George, Lake Placid. I've never been west, but I'm sure some West Coast lakes are like that. but in the Poconos you can get a lot of like ones. Yes. Yeah, like muddy bottom and yes.

speaker-1: Yeah. Very brown.

speaker-0: So this one I think we rated like a six and a half seven. It like had a little bit of a smell, but because they had the sandy beach, it like made a big difference.

speaker-1: Totally, totally. I remember we went to the Poconos a few years and I remember the sand being like really like yellowy and like just like heavy. I don't know if that makes sense, but it was very like it was like yeah, like heavy duty sand, not like fine sand. And ⁓ but there was a dock and I remember really enjoying that lake as a kid. But I feel like as a kid it

speaker-0: That was

speaker-1: You're not your criteria is not very intense, so all I needed was the vibes and the vibes were great.

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. And like if you have the dock, like you said, you can jump in without touching the bottom, which I think is a huge a huge factor.

speaker-1: huge factor. You know what's awesome too about like family vaces like that? You said you had your aunt and your uncle there. Like I'm thinking back to my Pocanos and I remember my uncle John being there and like when your uncles like play well with you, like I think he would like take the dock and like everyone would try to like push it far, far out and like we'd all be like, no we're just enjoying the game of it. I just you know it makes such a big difference when you have like everyone

speaker-0: Yeah. Different than your parents there's fun with. Yeah. Agree. Agree.

speaker-1: And I think a staple of every vacay house is the pool table. Was there a pool table?

speaker-0: There of course is a pool table. We were playing. We were playing pool. Well, my brother Pat and Andrew played a lot. And everyone played a lot, but like they were down there the most. And then my one uncle came and he is like a pool shark. He's he's really good. He sure is. So he was playing with them a lot. This is our shared uncle. ⁓

speaker-1: Sure. Yes. So I think he's who taught me how to play pool, 'cause he had a pool table in his living room. ⁓

speaker-0: Any memories I have of playing pool, it's like, ⁓ at at his house and like like I picture how to line up the ball and like he he's there teaching me. I've never been better at pool than I was in like middle school when we spent a lot of time there.

speaker-1: Yes. I had to learn that I'm bad at pool because like in my head I'm like, but you don't understand. In my past life as a twelve year old, I was incredible. And I got really good. I couldn't like lift the pool cue, but no, I'm just way too big, but yeah. But I could sink a ball.

speaker-0: And I got really good. Yeah, exactly. It was just like it was It was funny. He was playing w against Andrew one night and like he had like it was like the end of the game. He had I think two shots left or something and Andrew had a couple shots, whatever. And they're just like chatting as you do when you play. And then all of a sudden he hits his next shot and it was like the craziest shot you've ever seen. It like the ball hit three sides and then went straight into a pocket and it happened like so fast and he just took it so casually. My jaws dropped. I look over at my brother. His jaw is dropped. We're like, ⁓ my God. And then like that was a crazy shot. And then immediately later makes another crazy shot with the eight ball. Just like direct into the pocket, but like a really hard shot. We're like, holy shit, that was crazy. Da da da da. And then he's like chuckling to himself. He's like, it's such like a carefree guy. Like you're you're like singer sing single bachelor uncle, like chuckling to himself. He just goes to Andrew Who's your daddy?

speaker-1: ⁓ Unbelievable.

speaker-0: Celine, my sister Selene's in her room like next door. She comes out, she's like, What? It's so lapping. ⁓ we were all cracking up.

speaker-1: That's so funny.

speaker-0: Yeah, so now I just say that to him all the time. But you gotta add the chuckle beforehand to get your daddy. It's just it was like the the most like calm. It's like it's like one of those comebacks from like I don't know, like the sixties or seventies that people just used to say. Like it was like it was like that vibe. So funny. Very funny.

speaker-1: Of course. Gotta a So, That's wild. ⁓ Colorado was so awesome. It was so we went there for Connor's cousin's birthday. ⁓ and he got they have a pretty big friend out there, a friend group out there. Connor's cousins Yeah, I like to talk about people's size. hey. Hey, hey, hey

speaker-0: So it's Colorado. I mean you can't watch it. Cut that.

speaker-1: Cut that. ⁓ clip that. What was they saying? Okay, so Connor's cousins. Connor's large cousin. there's no there's no one large out there. So it doesn't matter. Everyone out there, I was the largest person out there. I was like, damn, no one out here got an ass? Not a single ass in sight. Damn. Like literally none. I was like, at least there are

speaker-0: All right. Green. People are just I just picture very granola esque skinny white people.

speaker-1: And that's exactly what's out there, dude. And they're w so lovely. They're so nice. No shade, but also your ass.

speaker-0: No shame, no shame. Stereotype and it really fits. Shouldn't say that, but sometimes

speaker-1: Sometime. We're talking shit today. ⁓ Okay, but I lost my train of thought. But no but. There's no butts. Okay. Cool, but minus the butts. Colorado is awesome. It was funny, like ⁓ Connor was saying something about like 'cause, you know, in in Puerto Rico, like there's not a ton of diversity. It's Puerto Ricans and some gringos and some people in between and

speaker-0: But But minus one. ⁓

speaker-1: That's that, right? There's not a lot else. So Connor made a comment. He like, Yeah, it'd be, you know, cool to be in a city and like a diverse ⁓ group of people. Like and I I agree, when I go home, go to New York, I'm like, Wow, it's cool. Like there's a lot of co a lot of different cultures, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ always nice to go back to. But Connor made that comment and I was like, Connor, there's gonna be white people? And there's gonna be white people, okay? And like we're not used to that either and that's gonna be fun. But like Connor. There will be no ads. We went to Denver, yes. So we went

speaker-0: Did you go to Denver? Denver's not very diverse.

speaker-1: I mean there there's a little bit. There's a little bit of melanin, but not a lot. Not a lot. And Hyreo, ⁓ my god, he's so cute. I just wanna squish those treaks. Those

speaker-0: He was crawling around and he's definitely tired too just bumping his head into everything.

speaker-1: Real. Come on, buddy. Put some effort in. ⁓ okay, so we went to Denver and we went to stay with Connor's cousins. ⁓ and it was super nice. Super nice to see Connor with his family, with his cousins, like just hanging out. Because they live in Colorado. When we go home to New Jersey, we don't see them. So I think we've Yeah. So we've only seen this particular set of cousins like twice in the last four years. Like it's really not been a lot.

speaker-0: Never thought about that, yeah. And Clara used to live with them, by the way. Yeah.

speaker-1: These were Connor's ⁓ cousins slash ex roommates. And when me and Connor started dating, they all lived together. and it was quite the vibe. So it's always sweet when they get to reunite. They came here, ⁓ recently, like in the last six months they were here, which was super nice. so it felt nice to return the favor, go visit them. ⁓ and it was so nice. Like their partners too, their girlfriends ⁓ are so sweet and like It was nice. I sp we got to like really ⁓ spend time together and form friendships and I feel like I have a nice friendship with them now and so it was a really a huge success. So ⁓ we flew in there was some drama when the flight. So to go anywhere that's not New Jersey really, we end up usually flying out of San Juan, which San Juan is like a two and a half to three hour drive from where we live. And ⁓

speaker-0: So it's about flight.

speaker-1: But our flight was at eight AM, so we were gonna be driving to Swan in the middle of the night, and I was like, that should then I shouldn't have to allot more than like two hours for that drive. Which I'm not wrong. However, apparently, do you know this? That like if you're checking a bag, you have to check that bag like before that flight starts boarding. Like I

speaker-0: Can't say that I've heard of this, but I also say like you check it when you check in, no?

speaker-1: I always Right, exactly. So so this comes to pl this comes into play. So we went to ⁓

speaker-0: They're late. The plane was boarding when you got there.

speaker-1: Plane was boring when we got there because where we were gonna park, like was no longer a parking option, which they didn't tell anybody that, but whatever. So we had to like go find a ⁓ alternative parking, which we did, but it was like 6 a.m. no one's rushing. We're like, okay, we really gotta go make our plane. It's on us, we're not leaving enough wiggle room, whatever. so anyway, we finally get to the airport and we're flying Frontier, which I haven't flown Frontier in forever. We always fly United. Because that's what flies out of Aguaria. Anyway. So we're flying United, we're flying Frontier, and I we're in line to check our bag. And I'm like, ⁓ God, it has to be 40 pounds. And I always pack for 50 pounds. So then I'm like shoving shit in my backpack. I'm like, put this here, put this there. And then so we and then so we do that. We reallocate and I'm like, good luck, babe, because the overdraft, the overweight fee is like seventy five dollars. Anyway. Connor's like, just go get into security. It's fine. Like, I got it from here. I'm like, okay. I go through, I have clear, he has TSA pre. I go through Clear. There's like no one in line. So I'm chit-chatting to the people. They're super nice. I get through in like four seconds. And ⁓ I'm about to head into the security. And Connor calls me and he's like, They won't take our bag. I'm like, What do you mean they won't take our bag? Like, they're gonna take our bag. They're like, You can't even check this bag. It's too I'm like, Too late. Like It just started to board. How are we too late? Like we're gonna be at that gate with plenty of time to board, so I don't understand. And he was like, They just won't take it because apparently there's a cutoff which I'm like I've I've never heard of that. I've never heard of that. And I'm I'm never in this position. I'm never late to the airport. I'm always early.

speaker-0: Yeah. We're at the gate and no, you know when you go on plate ⁓ plates, flights and they're like overcard or whatever and they're like, Okay, we'll give someone like a hundred dollar voucher to to check their thing. They do that all the time at the gate.

speaker-1: And they won't even tell. All the time. This never crossed my mind as a possibility. And we always check a bag because honestly, it's always cheaper than a carry-on, which is ridiculous. Right. But and I'm glad we didn't even we had carry-ons for this site as well, which I didn't even know, but I'm glad we didn't like plan on that because their carry-on size is also different. It's literally like a personal item on Frontier is a carry-on. And then the personal item is literally like a fanny pack. It's ridiculous.

speaker-0: Crazy.

speaker-1: Keep in mind they're so fucking strict because they're trying to scam you out of your money. Anyway. So I'm like, ⁓ shit. And like I do start to panic a little because I'm like, well, if we can't take our bag and this flight is boarding currently, what the fuck are our options? So I like run out of security, which is its own adventure, because it's like, how the fuck do you even get out of here? Yeah. Get back out there. And there's like apparently a protocol for this. Whatever. I follow it. I'm running past clear and the agents who I was chatting to before were like, Hey, what are you doing out of here? And I was like, ⁓ my god, thank you for asking. Like, they're saying we can't check our bag. Like, and they're No, no, no, you should be able to gate check it, like you just said. And I was like, ⁓ okay. Like, are you sure? Like I can take this massive bag through security, like through the thing? And they're Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, What about whatever? I was like, Okay. So I go to Connor. Connor's like Connor's panicking for real. He's like, Okay, we're gonna have to throw out this bag and I'm like, Well, we're not doing that.

speaker-0: I said no.

speaker-1: No, no, no. So then I take the bag and I'm like, just I'm gonna take it through. These people are helping me. Like, you go through TSA Pre. I'll meet you at the gate. And whatever. So he goes, I take the bag. I'm putting it, I'm putting it through security just like you would your backpack. And I'm like, to the security people, I'm like, hey, like there might be like a a something that's too large in there, but I was gonna check it, whatever. ⁓ they're like, whatever. And they sent it through. I have zero problems with security. Zero. Which like

speaker-0: I don't

speaker-1: normally have problems, but I'm like assuming there's gonna be something. There's nothing. I'm like, okay, what a random thing to not have a problem with. I'd rather have an issue here than here, but whatever. So I get through security in four seconds and then I run to the gate and I'm like at this point I'm like, I had to take shit out of my bag to to go through security. And so I'm like, Connor, take the bag to the front, ask them to gate check it. I'm gonna readjust everything in my backpack so that I can get on this plane so they don't charge me for having like too many carry on things. Whatever. And then he comes back, he's like, they won't do it. I'm like, what do you mean they won't do it? Like they can gate check and like you need they need to do it. They have to do it.

speaker-0: Let's get this straight. You're both at the gate.

speaker-1: We're now both at the gate that is boarding.

speaker-0: Like you're there on time, there's no delay at all. Have your bag with you to gate check because they wouldn't check it back there. Security check it.

speaker-1: No delay. Security tool gate check it. So then I'm like, all right. And Connor's like, I really have to pee. And I'm like, all right, go fucking pee. ⁓ and so Connor goes and he's like running. He's running all over the place. I'm like, okay, first of all, tranquila. We need to calm down. Like we gotta take this one step at a time. So then I'm like, All right. Whatever. I got this. So I go to the gate, there's a little line, I'm like, I get to the front, I'm like, hey, like I was told to come here and gate check this. Like, I'm so sorry to to ask you to do this. I I understand this might not be what you want, but like I really need to gate check this. ⁓ I'm like, hey, I really need you to do me a solid here. And I understand I'm asking you to do me a favor, but like if there's is there and she's like, I no. She has like the most dead look on her face, the most like dead eyes, the like least amount of customer service kind of face, which like I don't give a shit. I don't care, but like I am taking cues from you. I on whether or not you're gonna help me. And I'm like, please, like, is there anything I can do? Anything at all? And she just kind of like gives me side eye and like keeps typing. And I just like stand there trying not to annoy her, trying not to do too much. And I'm just like begging, like please, please, please, please, please. And that's me. Exactly what Rhea's doing right now. That's me at this gate. ⁓ so then I'm just standing there waiting for her to like make a decision and then but also I'm watching everyone board. There's like fifteen people left and I'm like, Rio said, not today. Slapping the mic. Go to YouTube. Go to YouTube. You'll see this baby, slap this microphone. So then there's like fifteen people boarding, and I'm like, please. And like meanwhile, Connor like runs back and has he's like, I'm buying bags, I'm buying bags. I'm like, Connor, don't calm down. Calm down. Okay, so then she's like send to this See that's what I'm saying. At that point I was like, I I don't think that's going to help us. But he got like a tote bag. He just got like a tote bag. And he was like, We could just bring all these tote bags on. I'm like, Well, we're not allowed to bring six tote bags. Like, do you know how little that will hold? Anyway. He was trying to help. He was trying to help. And ⁓ So I met the friend

speaker-0: Not anything. You're like, Yeah, yeah, just do this, just do this.

speaker-1: Everyone has to deal with it how they're gonna deal with it. So anyway, so she sell she tells me to stand to the side that like a a bag person, like the head of baggage or whatever, is coming to talk to me and I'm like, cool.

speaker-0: Imagine that's your role. ⁓ I'm gonna call the head of baggage. ⁓ You Okay Am I supposed to be scared by that? Because I'm the egg kind of ⁓ Please let me do this. What a big bag?

speaker-1: Okay. ⁓ I'm literally vibrating with desperation. Just like, please, God. Just like, can you like do me the pick? 'Cause like Connor at the same time is like the the guy at the desk was like, Yeah, we can't take your bag and so we're gonna have to rebook you and ooh, these flights are terrible. You're not you're never gonna get there. So like we I have that in my head, like, so we're like if we don't get this bag on this plane, this whole trip is off. That's literally what's going through my head. And I'm like, Connor, this guy comes and he's just like, they're just giving me such negative energy, which fair enough. I don't need you to give me positive energy. It's just like it's not adding to my confidence that we're getting on this plane. I tell Connor, I'm like, Connor, just go get on the plane. Like, if we have to rebook, we might as well rebook one of us, not two of us. You know what I mean? I'm like, it doesn't make any sense for both of us to miss this flight. He's like, Are you sure? I'm like, Yeah, absolutely. So he goes, the guy Again, no one's even talking to me. They're just giving me side eye like click clacking in a computer. Meanwhile, I'm like, Can the bag get on the fucking plane or not? Like I don't understand what the deal is. And she's like, Can you take this bag? He like lifts it and it's like, ⁓ it's kind of heavy. I'm like, It's a bag full of shit. Like, I don't understand. And it's obviously not like a carry-on. It's a regular 40 pound bag, which you have on this plane. Anyway, I just like, what is the like, I'm sure there's stuff you have to click, but like

speaker-0: You pay for.

speaker-1: Either yes or no. I really just need a yes or a no. So we're the last people on this plane. Connor is like hanging out, he's like checked in, but hanging out and like watching. And and eventually they say yes, we can get on this plane. And I'm like, ⁓ my god, thank you so much. But the dude comes up to me and he goes, Just so you know, th th this ever happens again, your flight is cancelled. You're not getting on this plane, you're not getting on this plane. And I was like, Thank you so much. Like thank you yes, of course, of course. Like I'm I this is of course. Like I totally understand. Thank you so much. Like I'm getting on this thank you so much. Whatever. They take my bag. Thank God. Hallelujah. But I'm like, What is the what is this whatever? ⁓ my god. And at one point he was like, You speak other languages? You understand English? I was like, ⁓ and I'm frazzled. So I'm like, ⁓ what do you mean? I'm like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. I speak I speak English. He was like, You so you understand? I was like, ⁓ you're ⁓ you're making fun of me. ⁓ I see. Yes, yes, yes. This is a power trip. Okay. But again, I'm like, I don't even give a shit. You can call me Nate. You could do whatever you want. I just want to know is this bag getting on this plane? So it's a miracle. A miracle that we get on this plane. And so yeah, it was my cortisol levels were through the fucking roof. I was like shaking, just like because I was like Am I gonna have to drive back home? Am I not going on this? Connor's going. Like I was excited to see some mountains. ⁓ blah, blah, blah. But anyway, we get on the plane and then we have a layover, a 30-minute layover in Raleigh, North Carolina. So we had to elbow our way out of that plane and rush to that gate. And honestly, I think that was the highest my cortisol was at. I was like, when we finally got on that Raleigh flight, I was like, I can't even breathe.

speaker-0: It's crazy. And he was your flight attendant, the guy?

speaker-1: And the guy who asked me if I spoke English was my flight attendant, which all power to him. You use the tools you got, that's fine. ⁓ I don't even

speaker-0: Do what you gotta do to feel good about yourself, I guess. Just take talk to me down. I got

speaker-1: Yeah, seriously. I it does not matter to me. It did not affect me. I was just like, okay, so I see where we're at. I just need to know what happens next. ⁓ and God bless. God bless you, sir. I hope you have a wonderful day. Yeah. Yeah. And and I did feel bad, you know, I did put them in that. But why the fuck was it not gonna be okay to check this bag? I still don't know. I was very grateful. I was very grateful. Yeah. Of course. ⁓

speaker-0: I get it. They probably deal with people who are rude to them more so

speaker-1: Right. I think too, the thing that I was I just did not expect that at all. I expected the stress to come from that layover and that's it. But the whole added stress of this bag was such a surprise. It like

speaker-0: And the fact that you got there on time, you weren't late and they didn't check your bag is we would just be now you know okay, you can plan a little bit more time because there's a ⁓ cutoff for checking your bag. Yeah. But you're not like the where does it say that? You

speaker-1: I know. Apparently it's a thing, but like

speaker-0: It's so silly, I think. I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

speaker-1: Friend Right. My friend who travels a lot was like, Yeah, it's like normally between like forty mi five minutes to an hour is where they do that cutoff, which like I understand. Like you need people to check their bags. Like I understand.

speaker-0: Yeah, and the the plane needs to be like mostly full.

speaker-1: It makes a lot of sense.

speaker-0: Which is beef tech is a thing.

speaker-1: Gate check is a thing. So

speaker-0: But I guess it's for like last minute I don't know, whatever.

speaker-1: Thing is, yeah, whatever. The good news is it worked out. We got to Colorado and Colorado was gorgeous. I like it so nice to be in a new city, a new environment. And like I was walking I walked around every day and I went to like four different coffee shops, like every bookstore, every tea shop. Like it I was just living. I was drinking in all those like new experiences. And I did find every thirty year old young professional in the country there. They're all there. All of them. No butts, but lots of professionals. ⁓ which is so funny. It's just like such a weird switch.

speaker-0: thing. I feel like I I've never been to Colorado, but I can imagine it's a city where there's like a ton of startups. Everyone works weird hours on their own. The whole city bustle is like and town is bustling at like morning, lunch and after work. It's like constant.

speaker-1: Yeah. Like Yeah, and every it wasn't like super populated, I would say. Like there wasn't a ton of people, but there were like every coffee shop was full of laptops, like which was wild to me. Like that's not the case in my little town here. And like literally I just walk in, you're like, ⁓ that is there even a place to sit? Every single surface has a laptop on it and everyone's like on their own calls. Everyone's like it was really funny. But I fit right in. It was really nice to just like I did my work, I edited the podcast, like it felt very I felt very peaceful, like

speaker-0: Did it feel like a community vibe because you were doing similar? That's nice. It'd be

speaker-1: Did ⁓ all the time the women kept walking by other women and being like, ⁓ my god, I love your shirt. ⁓ my god, I love your pants. ⁓ my god, girl, the same. Like that happened every two minutes and I was like, This is so cute. Also a little annoying, but like

speaker-0: So like the north ⁓ east in me is like shut up. I'm trying to

speaker-1: Exactly. I was shut the fuck up, you don't think it's that cute. Also like are you jealous? Damn. Yeah, a hundred percent. ⁓ like the North East of me thinks that's fake.

speaker-0: Yeah. It that when you said that, I like, ⁓ so they're just doing that 'cause everyone else is doing it.

speaker-1: In my head I like, if you don't know her, that's weird. But also it was sweet. It was sweet. But

speaker-0: The thing the thing that seems fake about it is that it's in like a random coffee shop. And public if it were like a bathroom and a bar, different story.

speaker-1: It's like Ex we're here to work. What are you doing?

speaker-0: Exactly, exactly. Like we're not here to make friends right now.

speaker-1: Which I guess maybe isn't true for Denver. I guess maybe they

speaker-0: Maybe maybe it is a good way. Maybe if you're like single and want to find a community and make friends, go to Colorado 'cause people are friendly in coffee shop.

speaker-1: Dude, the whole place felt like everyone was there to make a new community, which is definitely what was happening. Like I don't think I don't think I met anyone from Denver. You know? Like everyone is there from somewhere else, which is a cool vibe. And I'm used to that vibe a little bit, living in Ordinary. ⁓ but it was very cool and I I really liked Denver. There was so much to do. We did something like every night. I went to like the oldest bowling alley in The US, maybe Colorado, I don't know. But it was like this cool bowling alley refurbished slash like gym situation. It had it was very cool spot. But they had this bowling alley like in the basement, which was really cool. And it was like a bowling league. So something

speaker-0: So is it like for dudes or is it for anyone?

speaker-1: For anyone, but I think at one point it was for the dudes. And I think the membership's like expensive and you know, it's one of those things. But it has yeah, it's like a lifetime, but more than that vibe situation. ⁓ but it was it was a cool thing. Yeah. And then so and the reason we went was to camp. Sorry to drag this on forever, but we went camping in White River National Forests and it was awesome. It was so beautiful. Cold, the altitude got me.

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: But it was gorgeous and I really was I wanna say like forties at night. It was I was freezing. ⁓

speaker-0: Or camping? No, thank you.

speaker-1: Yeah. We had to and they were meticulously trying to figure out where they were allowed to have fires because Colorado had a like the d driest winter of its life and ⁓ some wildfires. So the fires were ⁓ they were banned in many places, but they did a lot of research and found a spot where we were allowed to have a fire. So we had a fire every night and it was super nice. That's fun. It was really nice.

speaker-0: How many nights were you like ten sleeping?

speaker-1: Two. Two nights.

speaker-0: My man's full.

speaker-1: It's incredible how dirty you get. And like the dirt there was so dusty. Like really, really dusty. Like I wore socks ⁓ and sandals one one evening and my socks were just like brown. Yeah. I could feel it in my toes, you know? Yeah. And the river was like it was gorgeous, but it was forty degrees. So and I did do a cold plunge twice because I like had to. It was so dirty. And it was verigid.

speaker-0: When you're when you're sleeping in a tent or like even like somewhere like the AC doesn't work or like anywhere, you just have to accept that you're gonna be gross. Yep. And then once you accept that, like all right, I'm just gonna sleep through it. But you really have to get there in your head. Be like I'm committing to the being a little bit gross.

speaker-1: And I like I was in that mentality from the airport. I was like, whatever happens this week, I co sign, I'm into, I say yes to. And then and and I had that mentality going into camping. I was like, I will pee anywhere, I will I was like, I really don't want to poop in the woods, but obviously whenever that needs to happen, we're gonna make it happen. And I'm very proud of myself and made that happen. But which I I feel very proud of myself.

speaker-0: You deserve an award for that.

speaker-1: Thank you, 'cause I would like one. Hi.

speaker-0: I would accept the stemic issues.

speaker-1: Well and I was ready to accept the stomach issues, but I like, if there's ever a point where I'm like this could take thirty seconds to complete, I will use that thirty seconds. You know what I mean? If this could take

speaker-0: Right there, you're like, Okay.

speaker-1: Yeah. Exactly. TMI. TMI, I'm sorry, but yeah. So I'm very proud of myself. I made that happen one day. Like when I talk. It started to wear, you know, there was a point on like the second two nights. Right. But I was like, okay, I am very much reaching my max of what I was like ready to accept. So that does I tried my best, but at one point I like, Okay, I've got about two hours left in me and then I'm about to be a bitch. My second Cook zero of the day.

speaker-0: They're so good. The mini ones go down so quick too.

speaker-1: They sure do. But like once I like had a few to get it out of my system, now I'm like, okay, perfect size, perfect size. Also, I got an e reader while in Colorado because you can get you can get same day delivery.

speaker-0: Yep. Yep. Which one did you get?

speaker-1: I got the Kobo. Have you ever heard of the Kobo?

speaker-0: It's like nicer, right?

speaker-1: It's like I don't know, they market themselves. It's completely made of like ocean bound plastic, aka plastic that was gonna end up in the water. ⁓ and one of their selling points is that if it breaks, you can replace all the parts of it, like ad hoc, so like you could have it forever. Whatever. It's it's nice. I liked it. It's c it like can connect to my Google Drive. It can it has notebooks. Like my notesbooks that I'm gonna click on. So I have my My yesteryear I have a stylus and my yesteryear notes that I wrote by hand. And I'm like, I'm really enjoying that.

speaker-0: So I really like it. What's the price tag?

speaker-1: two fifty.

speaker-0: Okay, pricey.

speaker-1: privacy. But like, you know, the newer Kindles like

speaker-0: For having it Yeah, exactly. And for having it forever.

speaker-1: Exactly. And you know what? I was gonna I told myself to just get a Kindle, like get a seventy dollar Kindle or like a ninety dollar Kindle, but I kept not getting the Kindle and I kept researching this fucking thing. So I like, you what? I really just need an e reader, so let's fucking

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-1: ⁓ okay. So I'm very excited. My first note is OMG. Is she fucking her father in law?

speaker-0: Spoilers ahead if you have not read

speaker-1: Spoilers. Okay, we're about to spoil yesteryear. We're gonna tell you everything about this book because we have to, because me and Liz have to talk about it. So if you haven't read yesteryear, I guess your episode ends. Yeah. ⁓ which which should be fine because we talked about fucking What I'm really enjoying about rereading my notes is that there's the notes from like chapter one and then the rest of the book. And the notes I have in chapter one are so off.

speaker-0: But

speaker-1: Like they're so silly because they're not even like they don't understand. ⁓ okay, so Liz, why don't you lead us off here because you are the one who who's been talking about yesteryear and I finally read it. Wha how where would you like to start?

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. I haven't read, I think I said this, but I haven't read anything like it before. It was so fun to read, so well written. And she managed like the whole timeline of it so masterfully. Because she's in the v beginning, she it you're almost taking it through not her entire life, but like college age through like middle age. You this is like the book.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: So it's through that portion of her life. And it's not like chronological. You're bouncing between all different of the timelines. But you're finding out things in the beginning when say she's like starting out her social media career and you're like reading it thinking it's a certain way. She's like, ⁓ we're redoing the farmhouse. Money isn't an issue if you say that. ⁓

speaker-1: You think that this is a story of how some influencer made her millions and like lost her perspective along the way? Nope.

speaker-0: Not the case at all. And you but like it starts out, you think that, and then you're finding out as the story goes on, you're like, ⁓ she was not ever. She was never stable even in the beginning when you thought she was. Like you're finding it out later. Right. It's just so cool how she did that.

speaker-1: She was never slow. The way you described it to me, and the way it was I described it then to other people was like this is the story of like a woman who becomes a trad wife influencer and like kind of like how she got there and then all of a sudden she wakes up one day, she's in eighteen fifty-five and she has to actually be a trad wife and like experience what that's like and like the juxtaposition of like pretending to want that and then really having to live it. That's how this book is like proposed. That is not how this book reads at all. This book ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. You can't explain it any other way without giving it away.

speaker-1: Yes. And to give it away now, like first of all, everything you just said, a hundred percent absolutely agree. And ⁓ this main character, like even from like the first page, I was like, ⁓ I'm in for a wild ride. Like like just the first page I was like, ⁓ this person is psychotic. And actually come to find out she might be psychotic. Like her brain I think it's I have so many notes, but like My takeaways were really like, at what point did she convince herself of all this? Like we all get fed some type of messaging. We all like you and I know, we all get taught things as we grow up. We're as women, even just going through the world, you're met with misogyny, you're met with patriarchal, you're ⁓ like all of this messaging is inherent to this country. Like But like at what point did she drink that Kool-Aid? And like decide that she was going to fight and fight and fight for this picture she had in her mind of like having a husband, having kids. Like she didn't even like any of those things. I'm like it there was a point at the end where I'm like, what was she really after? And why?

speaker-0: Think it's power.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: How in her mind being able to accept that that's what she was after. Because she she is was so smart. She went to Harvard. Yep. And which that's a whole other conversation. Her being like surprised at how diverse Harvard is. She's thinking it's gonna be more like where she came from. And that's the first time she's exposed to different like types of thinking than her very ⁓ like

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: Christian backgrounds, like traditional backgrounds. ⁓ and then she's so judgy of it completely and like so like turned off by it and like rebukes it. But part of her see I think, without her actually acknowledging it, part of her sees it like, ⁓ women can be powerful, but because she grew up ⁓ very traditionally, she's like But it can't be. So she's like, I feel like the like constantly battling that.

speaker-1: Totally. I think she contradicts herself all the time. Yes. She and like she doesn't notice that's what she's doing. She just like you know, and she is very devout. She talks to God all the time. And at first I think it's gonna be like some fake thing, but no, she really does talk to God all the time. Mm-hmm. You know, whatever. She I find I love the this is so relatable in so many ways that she has her first her roommate in college is named Rena. And Rena is like becomes a character in her head that she compares herself to all the time. Sometimes she compares herself to Rena, meaning like I'm so much better off than Rena. And then other times she's like, You just know she's like jealous of Rena, jealous of the life she's living. And that's a huge part of her inner monologue. This whole book is all an inner monologue. That's why it's so good. It's so psychotic. It's so back and forth. I mean How many times do I contradict what I think all the time? You know, it's so it's such a good lived in headspace, this whole book. It's crazy. ⁓

speaker-0: There's so many themes to it.

speaker-1: She also there's so many and like this is another contradiction. It's like she'd said that she thought Harvard would be a place where like a lot of intellectual discussions are had and she says there was none of that. Like everyone just wanted to like drink and get late and like party and like, you know, do what freshmen at college do. and I found that interesting 'cause I was like, Huh, that's a s that seems a little like I I too would think there would be intellectual discussions. But also I'm like, so I guess she just wasn't in any. Like She I don't know. It was interesting. I questioned it later on. At first I was like, ⁓ shit, okay. Harvard didn't do much for you. You didn't expand your vision.

speaker-0: Very unreliable narrator. She also talks about in that one class where she said that like she thinks the traditional roles are the way it's supposed to be. I forget what exactly that conversation was, but she said that in a crowded class with her professor. And I forget exactly what the professor's response was, but it almost like shut her down. And then she was like, Well, this can't be for me. Like this is not intellectual at all in a way. That was her takeaway. Instead of questioning herself, she's like, Well, this isn't for me.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Right. She never this is what I mean though. It's like she she never let any other opinions change change her own viewpoint, change her own perspective.

speaker-0: Even when her mom and her sister started changing their viewpoints, she doubled down on her own. And I think at that point she had refused different viewpoints for so long, but also was seeing such a big income from forcing this viewpoint on herself and others that she's like, No, this is what's making me successful. It's also making you crazy and pushing you away from everyone. But that's what's giving you money. Like it's insane.

speaker-1: It's just crazy. Like I can't stop thinking about like how sh she just was never met with disillusionment. Like she never was disillusioned from the ideas that she was born with. And I just find that crazy, which I'm sure is what it's almost like it's almost like ⁓ incestuous of in in like her mind is just full of the same thoughts over and over and over again to the point of insanity. Like it's incestuous. Like and so she couldn't come up with new ways to to ⁓ diversify her life to like you know, she just was like so stagnant to the point. So at the end of this book, I think we should spoil it so we can like compare and contrast different points of her life. Like so the th the the idea that she went back in time, you find out at the end is not true. She in fact At some at a critical point when she could have when when crazy enough, her father in law threatens her life, she decides to go full Tradwife and takes all modern life out of her own life and rever and builds takes her farm back to eighteen fifty five and brainwashes herself and her husband and her kids. That was so fucking crazy. The reality of this book is insane. She literally brainwashed her second batch of kids into thinking they lived in the year 1855 and had to survive like the settlers did. Which is wild. And it's so fascinating too. Because it's like that's like you can't live like that anymore because we know better. Because yeah, your kids might die. Your kids are malnourished, your kids are uneducated.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Like there's nothing glamorous about that. There's nothing to to promote about that. It's child abuse. And at the end of this book, her oldest child comes and takes custody of her like four or five younger siblings who were being abused. Mm-hmm. Which is a crazy, crazy ending. And she's so psychotic she doesn't even know that she was pretending anymore.

speaker-0: Child abuse.

speaker-1: She's lost her mind. Which again, like when she takes the pills, when she takes the medicine to like calm down in in her 1855, and she can like chill and like starts to think clearly and starts to like put pieces together for the reader. it does it makes me think like, ⁓ okay, so she really is an unwell person who should have been medicated her whole life. Mm-hmm. Like she's probably bipolar or just like has some kind of disorder. And really needed to be medicated.

speaker-0: It's so yeah. And I think also part of what led her there is she completely ⁓ secluded herself from the world. Right. Like to this r very remote farmhouse. And like, yeah, she's online posting about it and creating this online persona, but she doesn't know how to relate to other people. She never like did a good job of it coming from her also like sheltered background and then going to ⁓ Harvard, she you can see like she had a hard time making friends. But then she completely removes herself from society and is only posting online. So when she's in that like group learning about how to be an influencer and you know, they're critiquing each other and somebody says, You come across as mean and she was like, ⁓ And then like has to like learn how to not come across as mean. Like she just has no awareness.

speaker-1: She's probably what is that the definition of a sociopath? Like, I don't know. She has all these behavioral things that are just like abnormal. She has no empathy for her children. She she you're in her head this entire novel. And ⁓ she constantly is like correcting how she thinks about her kids. Sh ⁓ with her first kid, she wants to like kill her a little bit. Like but knows that that's wrong and like corrects herself. ⁓ it I yeah, it is crazy. I found it so fascinating. When, like you said, her mom, her her sister tells her and her mom that she wants to divorce her abusive husband. And her response is like, that's so funny. Like, well, you can't do better. Like, you're not gonna do better than him. And like, what what would that do for you? You're just gonna be a single mother of five? What are you gonna do? Bag groceries? And she thinks she's being like, she's in the right to say those things because she lives here's the thing like she was given this worldview. And she was like, Cool, that's the that's what we are supposed to want. That's what I'm gonna get. And it disappointed her at every single point. And when anyone tried to be like, Hey, like women can have different choices now and we're going to exercise that right, she'd be like, But you're never gonna win. And also it's so much more, it's so much harder to do it that way. That's like what she still believes. And when her mom started to also be like, Yeah, like, you know. I just like I cheated on your father because I was really bored and I like hated that life and I'm glad I was single and I wanted to stay single, so I just didn't tell you. And and like and then her mom was like, Yeah, and like I kinda like your sister's new vibe with her boyfriend. She was so angry. And of course she is. I totally understand why. She bought into this life that is extremely hard and has disappointed her at every fucking turn and she can't even get what she wanted, like the best case scenario of that patriarchal life, she can't even get that because her husband is a loser in her eyes and can't do his part. He can't be a man. So like she like her anger was I feel like her anger gave us so many answers where it's like, okay, this is what you believe and this is what you feel. And this is because like she was angry at women. She was and and at men, but she knew that like the men were in charge in her world.

speaker-0: She has this slight ⁓ obsession with women. And part of it is because I think she knows or feels that like women are better, but they have to play the part like they're not. And she's like, Why can't you understand that? That's what I'm doing.

speaker-1: Yes, you know what. Yeah, she's like, We are supposed to play a role and and I know we can do more, but we're not supposed to do more, or at least we're supposed to make them believe we're not doing more, even if we are.

speaker-0: Yeah, we she's like you can't you can't be so open about it.

speaker-1: Right. She is so in like her whole thing is like pretend people are watching, pretend people are watching. Even when she's in eighteen fifty five and being psychotic, she's like, Someone I know someone's watching me. And guess what? She's not fucking wrong. She's not You know?

speaker-0: Yeah, it's nuts. And what was I gonna say? The ⁓ when sh Instagram started making money and I don't know, let me mute this real quick.

speaker-1: ⁓ boy.

speaker-0: Okay. When she started making money on Instagram. Yeah. And then Caleb realized and wanted to use that money. And of course Caleb is spending it, has no self-control, spending it on like another cow doesn't know how to take care of. ⁓ so then she makes a separate account and then like feeds into their joint account to make it look like it. So she like has that independent

speaker-1: ⁓ my god, Caleb. Yeah, he

speaker-0: sense because she's like, I need to do this because Caleb is going to waste all of our money. So she has a second account and she's sh funneling money into it, like knowing that that's what she needs to do. Right. And that's so against her belief.

speaker-1: Right. Right. But like exactly, but like but what does she really believe in then, right? 'Cause like she wants to believe that she could be happy in this situation somehow, but she knows she can't be. And she knows she doesn't have power. Right. And then she thinks she has power at one point when she's has the social media, but then the social media ends up backfiring. ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah. How crazy when she And she's trapped. She's trapped by that prenup, yeah, exactly. Which you find out later in the book, you don't find out right away. No. Which again is just like the way it was re unfolded is crazy. ⁓ when she went to Target and has that interaction with like her childhood friend and

speaker-1: By the Perina too. Sorry. No.

speaker-0: And then also when she has a separate time when she's at a store and she has an interaction with a fan and she just has no idea how to talk to her. Like so socially unaware. I forget exactly what that says. Yeah, something like

speaker-1: ⁓ ⁓ yeah. ⁓ because

speaker-0: says yeah, something like I don't know.

speaker-1: ⁓ she's like she's like, ⁓ I just I just came out of the house to do this chore, like or something. Like I don't look that good. And sh and she was like, Okay, try to be nice. And she goes, Well, I'm sure you could try better next time or something like that. And then the person's face changes. She's like, ⁓ that was bad. But I don't know why. She doesn't she never knows why. ⁓ and then I there's so many I don't know how she wrote this book because there's so many ⁓ parts that fit together, like puzzle pieces. And ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: 'Cause then that same person comes back out in the parking lot and she's like, ⁓ another chance to like make this right and she just was like, Thank you so much for your content, like really helped me when I had my child, like I was really struggling. And then she's like, Of course. And like being very gracious and being like, ⁓ yes, I feel like this is good. ⁓ and they have a good interaction and then her baby cries from inside the car, and that woman is like, Did you leave your baby in the car while you went shopping? And then she was like, Fuck off. Like she she didn't say that, but she's like, All right, I gotta go and she's like, ⁓ these stupid people, like they don't know.

speaker-0: It's like her head started off. But she also didn't try to explain it away. She goes, No, yeah, I wasn't in there for that long. Like she's like she's is like, Yeah, left the baby in the car. That's not weird.

speaker-1: Right. She's like, I just needed a minute, damn. Exact And I get like the baby is fine. That baby needs everything for me.

speaker-0: Exactly. Right. The moment when she's in eighteen fifty five and she learns that her oldest daughter's name, who reminds her a lot of Clementine, her oldest daughter in current times. ⁓ when she learns that her name is Mary, and then she's like shocked because that's the name they were thinking of naming their next child. I was like, ⁓ my god, it really is a different life. It's like she made different decisions in eighteen fifty-five, but they still are aligned with what she would have made.

speaker-1: I was so impressed by that. Like this whole cause I'm trying the whole time to like, all right, so maybe this is like I'm trying to think outlandish things. Like when she finds the microphone in the driveway, like the old one or whatever, I was like, it's probably a rock. She her mind's probably playing tricks on her. ⁓ or or like worst case scenario, like, yeah, like Rena put her in like a simulation or like the the father in law, like Advanced technology, she's like in a coma and like they're piping in sounds or something. I'm like, I don't know, but this is gonna be something crazy.

speaker-0: What direction? Like, is it is this a sci-fi book? Right. Is this ⁓ is she just like Arwen?

speaker-1: Is this all in her head? Is it a dream? Are we like I was going toward like are we right. I was like, are we just like we passed out? Like I was like, okay, so she had a nervous breakdown and like her like she's in like a dream or something. And like I was halfway there. She does have a nervous breakdown, but she's just so out of her mind that she created a new reality for her and her family. Just fucking insane. But it is

speaker-0: Insane. One thing that annoys me a lot is that they're again, she created this reality where it's as if she's living in eighteen fifty five, no technology, completely like no social media, no electronics. They have an outhouse and they're living this life. And she fully believes it's real. Like she woke up one day and is is living this

speaker-1: It's not well.

speaker-0: Because she's unwell, right? Yeah. She's psychotic.

speaker-1: And because she attacked someone. ⁓ Yeah.

speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Caleb, her husband, not unwell in the head. He's just going along with it. He's just clinging to it. Literally. Also like slapping her when she like r tries to run away.

speaker-1: Also like sem like raping her? Yeah. Why are you still having kids? I don't understand this, Caleb.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Like when did you turn into a monster? You wanted you went from like being like a sweet, not really caring guy, like wanted to be a kindergarten teacher to like a a complete 180 where you're this horrible person who is completely mistreating his own children. Just going along with what his clearly crazy wife is doing when he knows better.

speaker-1: Yeah. Right. Right. Or he did at some point.

speaker-0: Or it did at some point. And I'm like, is that just like the red pill?

speaker-1: Well that is very yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

speaker-0: And then when he takes the one boy into the woods, he's like, Okay, you're of age now, you can and then you can ⁓ you know, learn the secret to the place. Meanwhile, this his daughter is still older than her son. She gets none of this. But he takes his son, who's now of age, into the woods. It's with his two older sons, who also are allowing this to happen. But with his two older sons, and they're just like watching sports on a TV. Yep. And so of course, like

speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓

speaker-0: That's like the secret that like the older boy has. Yeah. It's like, ooh, that's exciting to know. Like of course he loves that.

speaker-1: This is the thing, like I think that's what's so genius about this is that she literally did set them back 200 years in rights, in healthcare, in education, like in in patriarchy. Like she literally set them actually back. And like the reality of that is as horrifying as it was. You know what I mean? Like that's the genius of this book. It's like, yeah, you really want to go back to how things were. When the settlers were, Okay, you're not gonna live very long, your teeth are gonna fall out, you're gonna be hit by your husband, you the men will have way more access to other things, you have no rights, and yeah, you do have to lay with that man.

speaker-0: And you could almost die giving birth.

speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. And if you're psycho like she is, you're not gonna get the medicine you need and your family will suffer.

speaker-0: Like,

speaker-1: It's crazy. But it is funny like it is interesting what you say about Caleb because yeah, when did he become that way? And definitely all that like the YouTube conspiracy theory manosphere pipeline is probably too ⁓ is probably responsible for that. But I found it fascinating once I knew that this was the same Caleb, the same the same people with a new set of children in the same fucking house. It's very interesting that all of a sudden he can get hard. And she is suddenly being sexually satisfied for the first time in her life with the same man. Like she starts to have orgasms and she's like, God is here. And I'm like, ⁓ bitch.

speaker-0: It's nuts. That is a whole other like trippy thing. Was that what Caleb needed? Was power over her? I think Caleb is a whole other conversation where you're in Natalie's head the entire book and you're seeing Caleb through Natalie's eyes. But from what we can assume from how from Caleb's life is that he never really had a drive.

speaker-1: So true.

speaker-0: Like even on their first date in college, she was saying how she'd like to maybe live on a farm and he's like, ⁓ that sounds nice. Yeah. But then he never ev when they first got married, he was like applying to jobs, but really never had a desire to work hard or like pursue something. And then thought maybe a kindergarten teacher. He really likes playing with his daughter, their first child, ⁓ and was a really arguably a really good dad to her. ⁓ but then she wa obviously shut that down is like you can't be a kindergarten teacher, you're a man. Like that's utterly ridiculous. Right. And so then he like finds community in this, you know, red pill manosphere community and changes because again, he's easily influenced. And so he changes and then becomes this horrible person, but then also becomes who this red pill conspiracy people say he should be. Man, he can hit his wife, he can rape her and then that allows him to get hard and be sexually satisfied with her. It's not main

speaker-1: Maybe he or maybe he just feels like he is he's doing the things he wants to do now. Or maybe she fully does maybe she fully gives up. And so he's no longer fighting him on anything. Yeah, yeah. And also yeah, like he no school for his kids, that's check. That's what he's doing. And he never leaves the manosphere. He has a manosphere. And she's not fighting him enough to even find out.

speaker-0: Maybe. Yeah. Exactly. Maybe not that. Right, right. Yeah, I think he's a whole other character to be studied, 'cause that is is wild.

speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓

speaker-0: But how sad was it when Clementine, their oldest daughter, says to they hire this ⁓ assistant from she's from Brooklyn. I think Shannon is her name. And she comes and she asks Shannon, what's an ocean? Meanwhile, wasn't she born in California? Or at least lived there with you know Caleb's parents? So sad. Yeah. So sad.

speaker-1: No. Yeah. It was so sad. And like that whole that whole chapter was so sad. The whole like chapter of their lives. What was so sad too was when ⁓ it's just reminding me of Mary, who's like the oldest of the second batch of kids. ⁓ who she's pregnant with this whole first chapter of their lives. ⁓ which it is interesting because it felt like she was more open to being a mom to these kids than her first. batch of kids, which when I thought it was like time travel, I was like, This is interesting. Like she's devastated that she's no longer pregnant, which is interesting because she didn't like being pregnant. But she did have uses for them and she was sad when they stopped because it was like, you know, a good Christian woman has kids. Whatever. And then she hates Mary and then she loves Mary. And poor Mary, it was so interesting to me when I still didn't get what was going on that like All of her kids and old Caleb, they this her outbursts and like her ⁓ discombobulation was normal to them. And I was like, okay, so they know something. They know this is not new. They're used to her acting out. They're used to this being like this were like episodes of hers, it seemed. ⁓ probably when they couldn't get the medicine. Anyway, I just found that so interesting and like what a great way to like present that. too because it seems like a conspiracy against her, but really she's just done well. and then when Mary when Clementine comes and is ready to take the kids and like sends the police to them. ⁓ that's just so heartbreaking. Like for Clementine who's like, Yeah, we all live nearby 'cause I'm trying to get these fucking kids out of here. Like, I'm trying to save them. And then they all go live by the beach. Like ⁓

speaker-0: I know.

speaker-1: And like they're in a car and they're like freaking out because they've never been in a fucking car. ⁓ my god. What a turn. Turn like the fact that like I ⁓ I'm obsessed with how this book is presented because it's presented as like a fantastical journey and like some like time travelling, like sci fi thing, but when in fact it's the most rooted in reality thing I've ever seen. It's so real.

speaker-0: Yeah down the road. What a turn. It's so real. And also, as crazy as it is, it is, like you said, extremely realistic where you not extremely realistic, but like you could see a a world in where this happens. Well the

speaker-1: This is what would happen to a mentally unwell person who's hiding from the police. Like this is the result. Like obviously it's a crazy story and not the norm, but like this could absolutely happen. Well who

speaker-0: I'm looking it up now. Youtuber in jail.

speaker-1: Right, there's YouTubers in jail for child abuse and child exploitation. Ruby Frankie.

speaker-0: Ruby Frankie. The former parenting advice YouTuber, Eight Passengers, was sentenced for up to 30 years in prison in Utah for severe child abuse. So she would use her kids in her content and she would do like parenting content. And then was wildly popular, I'm assuming making a ton of money. And in one video, like some people towards the end started to catch on, like, ⁓ that's strange, like the way she

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah.

speaker-0: talked to her kid or then her like reasoning about why she was punishing her kid a certain way and people were like, well that's harsh. But not until one of her kids like went to a neighbor's house and said, Help us did they realize the extent of the child abuse. And like she would like malnourish them, not feed them. And it yeah, horrible. Like lock them I'm pretty sure. I don't know. I should fact check, but I think maybe like lock them in their rooms for a long time. Damn. And continue to post online. So like her crazy was starting to come out online, but that is a real story. I wonder if some of that was inspired by

speaker-1: Yeah. I do find that whole like discourse so fascinating because there are people who it doesn't seem like they're using their kids. There's like so many lines that it's like, have they crossed this line? Have they crossed this line? But like I remember when I was getting into YouTube, like just like exploring channels and things, there's there's a whole YouTube world of like families, like family YouTube channels. ⁓ which like isn't inherently bad at all. But like there were some where you're like Like the parents playing pranks on kids. I remember just being like, That's like they were like laughing at the kids. The kids were upset and like egging on other kids to laugh at their kids. And I just remember being and they got like in trouble for it. But like I remember being like, Ooh, I don't even like I don't even want to hear about this anymore because this is so icky. Like what kind of parent is like doing that? Like that's really trip.

speaker-0: Yeah. It it's really f but like it it happens. It does. And also another whole topic of conversation is how performative social media is, which everyone knows, but also people can have different, like completely different personas. What they're portraying as the truth online is so far from it. Like in this book, in yesterday when Shannon comes and she sees that they had hired workers from Home Depot that she sees how often Caleb goes through cows because he does not know how to take care of them. He's k he's killing cows. And meanwhile she's promoting none of that and saying that they do all this themselves. They have their farm, they're completely organic, pesticide free. The cow is named every new cow is named the same thing.

speaker-1: Right. Which is weird. Caleb had doesn't even know Caleb doesn't even know that they're spraying pesticides. But that's because he's a terrible farmer.

speaker-0: Right. When he got blocked from the one like farming group online. Yeah. I was like, Good, you should be blocked. But also what is welcome welcoming you? What other groups are encouraging? It is so dangerous. So dangerous. What what did you think of Shannon and Caleb having

speaker-1: Right. I found that super weird. Like what are you doing, Shannon? What are you doing?

speaker-0: One thing I found a little bit unbelievable.

speaker-1: The well, the only thing that made sense to me was that like Shannon was like twenty three, twenty two, twenty three. I mean, so like she's really young. Like imagine

speaker-0: True. Even she might have been younger 'cause she didn't graduate college. She might have been she might have been younger. Yeah. You know what? That makes sense.

speaker-1: And so like maybe she just thought that was the easiest way to gain trust or like maybe she just wanted to fuck him. She said that, like, ⁓ he said you wouldn't mind. And from what she could tell, she was like, I believed him, you know? Which is fucking weird, but like, I I guess kinda holds up. I don't think it was a good choice on her part. It doesn't add credibility. Right. But like and I but at the same time, she was like, again, we're seeing this through her eyes. And she's an unreliable narrator. And I'm kind of like, and Shannon was like through Natalie's eyes. And so sh she says, Shannon says to Natalie, ⁓ Caleb is not actually dumb. And she's like, She's he's not. Meaning, there were two consenting adults in that situation. And like, he's actually he's pretty alright. You know what I mean? So it kind of made me think like Caleb might have just been like a cute, a cute little guy. Who wanted to hang out with Shannon. Yeah. And

speaker-0: sense that Caleb fell in love with Shannon and Shannon didn't fall in love with him but did have like a a relationship. I think she saw Caleb as like her in to getting maybe through to Natalie and or like exposing them. Yeah. You know, she saw like an opportunity there.

speaker-1: I don't think she knew I had any feelings about how crazy Natalie actually was. Because Natalie she tells her she confronts Shannon about sleeping with her husband and Shannon's like confronts her about a lot of other stuff and I forget what she says to trigger her, but Natalie chokes her, gets on top of her. And Natalie does say like her jeans were unbuttoned and her jeans were like at her feet or whatever. And then Shannon is like, Yeah, it was sexual in nature which I you don't get that vibe in Natalie's head at all. Mm-hmm. It personally I didn't get that vibe. Obviously it's but it's through Natalie's POV. So

speaker-0: She said when you like described it, you you thought like, ooh, was it? At least I did change. You're like, what was it sexual? And then you hear Shannon's point of view. And I think it's could be

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: Like I think it's like purposefully a little bit ambiguous because clearly there was no consent about anything and Natalie attacked her. And then because Shannon was in a state of undress and because Natalie was on top of her, it probably felt a little bit sexual in nature. Whether or not that was Natalie's purpose or if it was on Natalie's end, it probably felt like that on Shannon's end. Good point. So that's my thought.

speaker-1: That makes sense.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, 'cause I mean Natalie never like gives away that feeling of like, ⁓ shit, like, am I? She never does that.

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. Natalie's life could have been so different if at Harvard she like questioned her beliefs, obviously. Questions her beliefs, even like her sexuality a little bit. And clearly she's a smart woman and like very driven. Very, very driven.

speaker-1: I mean sure. Yes. Very intelligent. But that's the thing. I don't think those questions matter unless it's what's motivating her that changes. And like what motivated Natalie at every point was like success, like trying to reach trying to I don't even know if success is the right word, but like she she just like had this idea of getting something and she couldn't get it. Right. Right. And like Power, success, like freedom, stability, I guess, but it's like she trapped herself in her own mind, like and she could not get out of it. It w it's such a weird book because like you did this to yourself at every turn. Why?

speaker-0: Why? I think with this book, what you go into this book thinking it's going to be is about modern day trad wise and a story about like a modern day trad wife and it's like a little bit normal, but like their real life, what they actually live versus what they're portraying online. Yeah, that's a theme of this book, but it's not what this book is about. I think that book would be interesting because you're like, what actually is a trad wife? Because not everyone is this crazy person. So Right, exactly. I think like that story is also very intriguing, but that's not what this story is.

speaker-1: It's a relatable version of this, yeah. Is unrelatable. But also not. But also not unrelated. Extremely relatable. It's just the extreme. It's just an extreme. ⁓ yeah, I love that. The first page, I just reread the first and second page because I remembered something. Yeah. And it's and it's that it's such a lie. It's such a lie. The first sentence is this is the last day of the life I imagined for myself, which is crazy. Which is I think it's like the last day before like her father in law like threatens her life. Mm-hmm. I've never had a hard time waking up in the morning. Never used the snooze button either, not once in my life. Sobriety helps. I don't drink. Discipline helps too. I was born with spades of discipline. I'm practically overflowing with it, which is why I think I've never had that much trouble with anything in my life. Yes, the delusion is insane. And like that's how they enter in. So you that's why I really did think I was like, okay, cool. So she's like super successful, just delusional, and we're gonna have to we get to enjoy that. Like

speaker-0: ⁓ so she's gonna like a hard working kind of a bitch. Like interesting, cool.

speaker-1: You think like exactly. You think this is gonna be almost like saccharine. Like you think this is almost gonna be super enjoyable to read because you're gonna be like, ha ha, she thinks she's happy, but she's really not. Like just like how she is, Tarina. You think we're gonna have that experience, but we do not because she disillusions us from it. But my line my favorite line that I also came back to as I finished the book was My name is Natalie Heller Mills and I was perfect at being alive. And I just feel like that's her goal. Her whole goal was to be like, okay, so like I know the rules. I know the rules. I'm disciplined. I'm gonna follow the rules. I'm perfect for this. Yeah. And then she can't. She fails. She fails. She fails because it's set up to fail.

speaker-0: It's set up to fail and because she's human. Yes. Like Yeah, like what she's told is supposed to work doesn't work and she just keeps trying to make it work.

speaker-1: Yeah. And she drives herself insane. Try. And that's that.

speaker-0: Crazy book. Thanks for listening.

speaker-1: Crazy book. Thank you. I hope you listened and enjoyed.

speaker-0: enjoyed that's catching up with those and every and we'll see you guys next

speaker-1: Next time. See you next time. Me, Liz and Rio. Go to YouTube. Bye. Bye.