speaker-0: you So the case starts with these two guys.

speaker-1: Driving to the hospital one's been shot in the dick according to him as he's seen on body-worn camera riding around in the emergency room and The cousins version of how he got shot was just wild right because he's maintaining that he's just sitting in the car the whole time That this bullet magically like goes through the car door and through the car seat which the record showed That the bullet went into his body

speaker-0: and then output the penis. never...

speaker-1: knew like what the know what the trajectory was ⁓

speaker-2: ⁓ Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system. Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

speaker-0: These stories are about the not-guilties public defenders get on a daily basis.

speaker-2: In an unjust criminal system with the death

speaker-0: stacked against us.

speaker-3: you

speaker-2: Alright, alright. Welcome to another episode of Another Not Guilty. I am Dallas Gutman. I'm a public defender in Cincinnati, Ohio.

speaker-3: I'm Rachel McKay. a public defender with Dallas. And today we are joined by two phenomenal guests out of Jacksonville, Florida. We have Troy and Dina. And yeah, it's just a great night guilty. We're really excited to get into it. Do you guys want to introduce yourselves a little bit?

speaker-1: Okay, my name is a public defender and felony court in Jacksonville, Florida. Been working here for about going on for and just really love it.

speaker-0: Troy, I work at. years.

speaker-3: I'm Dana. I've been a public defender for seven years now. Worked a little bit in the in Jacksonville as well as Tallahassee.

speaker-2: You know, it's freezing here in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I was talking to Troy before we started about how jealous I am that it's probably nice out there, but it sounds like it's chilly and raining, so.

speaker-1: Yeah, today's not the best day for me right now, like mid 50s.

speaker-0: It's an indoor day for sure.

speaker-2: It's a great day to record a podcast.

speaker-3: Yeah, we'll keep it going as long as we can.

speaker-2: That's right, it's gonna be night. It's gonna be a beach day when you guys are done.

speaker-1: No, we have brunch plans later. ⁓

speaker-2: All right, so let's get into it. Tell us a little bit about what your client was charged with.

speaker-3: Not anymore, Troy. Lock it.

speaker-1: So.

speaker-0: Terrell was charged with two counts of attempted murder.

speaker-1: And in Florida, we have what's called a 10-20 life law. So there's certain charges that if a gun is involved, then it would carry a minimum of up to day for day with no gain time. If the gun is discharged, it's 20 years day for day. ⁓ And then if there's an injury, then it's 25 years day for day. So one of the ⁓ complaining witnesses

speaker-0: in

speaker-1: was shot and so that was a 25 year minimum mandatory. And then the other one ⁓ was just a 20 year minimum mandatory. So he was, 25.

speaker-0: show. his exposure to life.

speaker-2: Okay, and those days wouldn't stack, or would they if he was convicted?

speaker-1: ⁓ for enumerate these, ⁓ that qualifies 10 20 life, they would staff, they'd have to be run consecutive. ⁓ at this time, the disc.

speaker-0: So the law just changed now for a felon. the judge had discretion to run them concurrently.

speaker-2: All right, so tell us a little bit about the state's theory then.

speaker-3: You know, the change during trial, think, originally, Grindr date gone bad kind of thing. Grindr date gone bad.

speaker-2: Yeah, that sounds like the title of this episode. That's good. Yeah. ⁓

speaker-0: So the case starts with these two guys.

speaker-1: is driving to the hospital, one's been shot in the dick, according to him, as he's seen on body worn cams, riding around in the emergency room. There just so happened to be an officer there, so he picks up the investigation and the guy that was shot, he's a cousin of the date that Terrell was meeting. And so, that go to a local car,

speaker-0: The story goes these guys go bar

speaker-1: ⁓ Date says that to read with his cousin and the cousin doesn't like that so they decide in the date and go take directly from the bar to his house where it's in the vehicle and The cousin says that he tries to break up this location inside the vehicle they come to a stop outside of a side of a park ⁓

speaker-0: is flirting that's the end. can argument starts and it turns into an altercation. salt. Archer in

speaker-1: crossing Terrell's house, ⁓ the date and Terrell get out of the car. It's a fist fight that turns into a gunfight. And cousin somehow gets struck and then. ⁓ That's kind of it in a nutshell.

speaker-0: and then bullets go fly. Pharrell runs off and then they drive to the hospital.

speaker-2: And so these people originally met that same day on a dating app, basically Grindr.

speaker-1: met originally and Terrell met I think on gruff and then they moved it over Instagram and then they exchanged phone numbers they've been texting maybe before they actually up on this particular night this was in November 2020 2023 so yeah it started on a on a dating platform and then just kept it casual on Instagram I guess

speaker-0: forward. couple of months before I decided to meet a member of

speaker-2: But the first day that they meet up is when all this happens. Rough. Yeah. This feels more like a third date situation to me, but everyone has their own timeline, you know.

speaker-3: You can see where I said cousin on the first date, you know? It's definitely...

speaker-2: Who brings their husband on

speaker-3: I'm there, my cousin's there. So... Okay, so on that first day is client, the person client's on a date with, and cousin. Cousin becomes kind of... ⁓ Like it's questionable whether or not client's flirting with cousin, that's why other party gets mad. Then they're all in the car together. There's some sort of physical altercation. At some point, gun goes off, hitting cousin.

speaker-0: Correct. That's basically what the state theory is.

speaker-1: Thank

speaker-2: Okay, then they go to the hospital and then charges are filed basically.

speaker-0: Yeah, there wasn't a lot of follow-up after that.

speaker-1: they the detectives that were assigned from the robbery violent crimes unit went and met with the Cousin who was transported to and so interviews the cousin Cousin gives his version of events, which is a little bit different than what the date said and then he goes and meets with the date Gives his version of events They are able figure out where client lives based on where

speaker-0: to different. to figure out.

speaker-1: where this altercation happened. And so they go get him out of bed at like four o'clock in the morning. Where they him. He doesn't invoke right away. He's he initially either of these two guys and he denies being at the bar that they that they were at. And then when he's confronted with we know that you were there and we know that you know this person that's when he decides to invoke.

speaker-0: bring him down to police memorial building interview. denies knowing eyes.

speaker-1: Yeah, so not not great for the defense to start off with. ⁓

speaker-2: I guess better than an admission though. I don't know. Yeah.

speaker-3: Yeah, yeah, better to, yeah, I guess kind of deny some glaring facts than to just send We're like, I guess it could have been worse.

speaker-2: So he was arrested that day.

speaker-0: He is arrested.

speaker-1: Yeah, that day.

speaker-2: So how does the case kind of progress from there? Do you meet him right away, or how does it work in your jurisdiction?

speaker-1: ended up getting transferred to a different division. Jacksonville decided to start what we're calling GVOC Corps, G-V-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O-C-O

speaker-0: start calling GVOC, Violent Offender Court. It got transferred to that.

speaker-3: Wait, these court names. I have to pause every time. Gun violence offender court? That's like criminal of criminals crime.

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-2: Definitely guilty, criminal court. Worst of the worst, lock them up court. ⁓

speaker-1: Yeah

speaker-3: beyond a reasonable doubt at a rainmen ⁓

speaker-1: So all the cases in that court, 20 or 25 year minimum mandatory. So it's pretty, it's.

speaker-0: carry these. pretty intense.

speaker-2: Okay, so he's in GVAC.

speaker-0: He had, I was, the preliminary investigation had already occurred. One division two.

speaker-1: He was attorney on his case. So a lot of the were covered. Once it got transferred from the WACG, then there was a new attorney on it. And then that attorney ended up cycling out of the division and I was cycling in. then it landed in my lap. And it was a good thing that got it. So first time I met him was a pre-training.

speaker-2: Why is that?

speaker-0: set for trial when I go. trial conference the next court event.

speaker-1: and it was going to be his final pretrial and then that was time that I had a what he was charged with so he was out made it really difficult for right because he's been out since you know it was two years before he went to trial and then when that started you know getting closer and closer you know he's starting out yeah

speaker-0: which may be difficult for him. year. round date. a free cap.

speaker-2: anxiety ramps up. What was his bond?

speaker-1: It was a hundred on the murder and then they charged him with ⁓ For the shooting for the for the guy that didn't get shot and then or they run them on now they also added a ⁓ alter and alter and destroying ⁓ evidence charge because they said that he His clothing and the gun and I think there's a battery to you. So total is like a hundred forty five thousand I think

speaker-0: it. aggravated assault. and him without charge. head.

speaker-3: And also, think it's important to note that he was at the time in the National Guard, right? Correct. he had no criminal record and he actually got, I don't know if you call it discharged or, but he had to essentially give up his position during the pendency of the case. All right. So he's out and he's been out for about two years when the case is about to go to trial and when he meets you, right?

speaker-1: So we set up a meeting for him to to the office, which he shows up with his mom. And so I met with her and him for a little bit and then kicked her out. And then I just asked him to tell me this. And I had done some, you know, I had reviewed the point. I looked at the body worn cameras and, know, some things that were a little bit peculiar in the back.

speaker-0: to come. story. Discovery of this. I noticed that cute backseat of the car where he was supposed to

speaker-1: was sitting during the solitation. There's some weed, there's a bottle and there's a toilet and a seat. So those were things that I was kind of like, yo, what's going on here? mean, bottle out, looks like it's gonna be a... So when he's telling me his story, I could tell that he was kind of being...

speaker-0: bottle of lube. A bullet in the back. story. A little cagey or hedging?

speaker-1: So finally I was like, see the weed, you know, there's something else going on here, bro. Like I'm gay, you're gay, just tell me what happened, right? And he's like, oh my god. Now he feels like he can open up to.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's real like the bottom back there I see something What happened right? ⁓ god. ⁓ my god. Okay

speaker-2: Okay, so you were able to kind of connect with him on that level, because it is kind of, don't, I mean, I don't know, for me at least, I don't necessarily tell my clients personal things about me. mean, sometimes I do if I think it's gonna be helpful, but I don't know, typically it's not, I'm not worried about them knowing stuff about me, but just typically it's not helpful or relevant or they don't care, you know? Yeah, same. Yeah, so that is kind of nice when you're able to be like, listen, like.

speaker-1: you

speaker-2: I get it on some level. yeah. Mm hmm. Did it just end up? mean, I don't know. Did you were just randomly assigned the case, right? So just ended up that he got you as an attorney. It's yeah, I love when that kind of stuff happens.

speaker-1: just ended up that way. ⁓

speaker-3: And he responded to that and like that changed his energy the way you

speaker-0: that did. He told the whole story how the whole didn't progress and did.

speaker-1: opened up to me, he told me the whole night started and ended.

speaker-2: So what was his version of events?

speaker-0: Yes.

speaker-1: he tells me that the date was going to pick him up at the street from where he lives. And that's because he does client does bring guys over to his house. lives with his parents at this point. go back to clients like, no. And then they start talking. Date tells him that he was discharged from the military or getting into a fight with somebody when he was overseas. So that'll be

speaker-0: power that's across Date's house. Date wants to start pounding tequila. become important later.

speaker-2: little 404 B action or something.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm now at some point

speaker-0: starts getting a phone call from his cousin.

speaker-1: It's like yo come over to my house. It turns out he lives right around the corner and so Client doesn't want to go to house. He's you know on a date with with with this guy ⁓ but the the cousin keeps and so finally he's just like okay over there and ⁓ one of the things that I'm I'm leaving out is that was talked about is the date was ⁓ They were gonna go to this particular club

speaker-0: presence. calling. sure we'll go there.

speaker-1: And the date was also going to meet a couple that were potentially going to take him in like a swinger type situation.

speaker-0: Another as a third.

speaker-2: Oh, and he told your client that? Is your client like, what the hell? This is like the worst first date I've ever been on in my life. For What's like running errands for you? Like, do want, to pick up your laundry next? Yeah, exactly.

speaker-1: Yeah So yeah, there's already some drinking going on over there and but things change Client talking with cousin and they're kind of vibing and this dates like starting to give him the side eye like At ⁓ some point they just that they're gonna leave and go to this club

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-1: So the three men get in the car, dates driving, cousins in the front seat, clients in the back seat. ⁓ They make another pit stop at a store where cousin gets a couple of malt beverages is what clients describe them as. basically,

speaker-0: store. chugs them on the way to the bar.

speaker-1: smoking weed as well ⁓

speaker-0: so they get the club.

speaker-2: So this guy's getting good and lit, right? Like, yeah.

speaker-1: Getting lit.

speaker-3: Everybody is, yeah. Yeah, you add it all up, yeah, it's getting blurry.

speaker-1: Yeah Yeah, a couple more shots had happened by this point, so... That'll do it. Yeah. So they get to the club and cousin gets out of the car and immediately just pukes everywhere. the night.

speaker-0: Kila. Not a great start.

speaker-2: They're not even in the club yet. ⁓

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: So, date.

speaker-1: ⁓ It's like dates like yo, you're okay man, he's like, you know running his back and like making sure that he's okay and It's like, you know, why are you, you know spending so much time on him and like

speaker-0: Now, now date. Leave him alone.

speaker-2: Wait, client was consoling cousin. Got it, okay. I got jealous. Even though Dane said, we're gonna meet these people that I might hook up with later. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, they didn't like that.

speaker-3: Yeah, ⁓

speaker-0: Bye.

speaker-1: Now one of the things that the date had told the police and which was it was that at the club ⁓ Client had like run his fingers around there and the cousin was like, you know, leave me alone get away from me so according to the date that's kind of when he decided to end there was no particular they decided to leave they just was gonna play

speaker-0: fingers through the date's hair, run his... through the cousin's hair. Thanks. things for a client to the reason why I did are being left

speaker-1: Contrary to what date says this like whole thing happened with the cousin ⁓ Nesta messed by the club and the client or whatever

speaker-2: So client says like that never happened, the hair, the fingers through the hair, the getting uncomfortable. Did cousin say that happened or is this just dates perspective?

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, go ahead. Sorry. ⁓

speaker-0: I cousin.

speaker-3: think it depends when you ask them, right? Because their initial story was a little bit different than what they said in deposition, which was a little bit different than what they said in trial.

speaker-1: And according to what's in their report, directly to clients, now they both people and independents know we didn't go directly to this house. We went and go back the bar. ⁓ So that's a little strange, right? Like you just made cousin uncomfortable with these unwanted touching and you know, you're

speaker-0: a court. The rest of the court, proceed to the client's house. Both people, both men, stay in their depositions. the clients back to dates house the three minutes back to dates house

speaker-1: gonna end the evening because everything's getting weird. But then you go back taking the client. ⁓ So yeah, we're leaving them. and then

speaker-0: to your house instead of... ...direct to his house. Right. ⁓

speaker-2: believing him or whatever. ⁓

speaker-0: they go back to the dates house at some point cousin says to date hey man would

speaker-1: you give me so

speaker-2: Cousin says to date? No, cousin says to client? Okay.

speaker-1: Hey man, we got something like my wife doesn't do that anymore

speaker-0: Yeah. Give me some head.

speaker-2: this is according to your client.

speaker-1: Yes. So, ⁓ it's like, ⁓ what? I, you're married?

speaker-0: plan. I just met your wife. I just met your daughter like

speaker-1: ⁓ Where are you coming from? And overhears this and so he's out at this point.

speaker-0: Now, they load up in the car.

speaker-1: date is driving, cousins in backseat, clients in the backseat, and client says while we're driving, and the date has this to, yeah, the date.

speaker-0: the front. day strike

speaker-2: Is driving? He has a tequila bottle.

speaker-0: It's the taken switch from the teal a bottle never love to keep

speaker-1: day on the way home this ending there's there's some argument that's happening between ⁓ date and cousin dates upset with cousin client says he's just kind of like what the fuck just get me home at this point so he's just in the backseat not you know not engaging pull up to his

speaker-3: Yeah, they got their money's worth.

speaker-0: his house or the park rather to cross from

speaker-1: the client's house and the ⁓ client's like is up between the two seats and he's like pointing forward to like hey man can you pull up more my house he doesn't want to so he's kind of like leaning up pointing and out of no

speaker-0: reach up here walk half a block or whatever it is to his house where it takes this tequila bottle.

speaker-1: And knocks him upside his head and so client now retreats back into the backseat. He's like in a f***ing and he drives it as the seat like turn around and just like start on him while he's in the backseat. At some point, client pulls a f***ing pack that he's had all night. He hasn't carried it in the bar and he hasn't carried it in a cousin's house, but it's been f***ing

speaker-0: fetal position, describing the date of turning or starting to wail off. some. out this gun that he has Fanny. into the otherwise on him

speaker-1: him so he pulls out this gun and he ⁓ swings it at at the date who's

speaker-0: beating his ass in the backseat

speaker-2: So he uses it to kind of like, as a pistol whip type of situation.

speaker-1: With them caught him caught him on his left eye ⁓ So clients right hand swings the swings the gun butt of the gun hits the cousin in his left And then at that point clients able to get out of bar and so when he gets out on the passenger side of the back seat the cousin gets out and then have some

speaker-0: So. it. leaves a pretty good graph. . See. cut, grab, and put some in a choke hold.

speaker-1: And he's still, and puts him, so he's like, he can't breathe. He's, you know, trying, he's like, he's, I guess he's saying, let me go, let me go. Like he was about to, you know, not breathe. And so now,

speaker-0: grabs client and puts a choke hold. Let me go, let me f- DATE gets out of the car too, comes around the front of the vehicle.

speaker-1: And as soon as he gets to flying his old releases him and date just saw him on him clients still at this point and so And dates on his back and dates for the gun and goes on and cousin

speaker-0: being held in this show pole. A cousin jumps and starts pounding. Has the gun in his hand. Now clients face down in the ground. Apparently trying to grab the gun off hit

speaker-1: Turns out Cousins hit in his buttock and then the bullet travels through his thigh and out his penis. yeah.

speaker-0: Right? basis.

speaker-2: That hurts my penis, I don't even have one.

speaker-1: So after the after the gun goes off ⁓ the the date gets off cuz of clients back and Client just runs away, right? It's sort of a To Jump fences and he's running the less way because in his mind he's afraid that these guys are gonna try or something so then he gets home and he

speaker-0: cousin. through the park he less direct route his house he has to Director. get in their car and follow them and run them over.

speaker-1: basically passes out like he's winded, he has asthma, and so he ends up just going to bed. And then next thing he knows, police are knocking at the door, his parents get him up out of bed, and then he's taking a trip downtown.

speaker-0: parents.

speaker-2: So he must have had injuries then.

speaker-1: to ⁓

speaker-0: He part of the hour.

speaker-2: They documented that or you could see it on the body cam.

speaker-1: to get in the interview video.

speaker-0: see you

speaker-2: So let's talk about discovery then. by the time you met client, you had discovery, right? Because it had been, it had gone through three lawyers. Yeah, what did you get in discovery?

speaker-1: Correct. The body worn camera, that was primarily useful from the initial officer speaking with the date at the hospital. We can get into that. And then we had the interview video. We had like, you know, detective's reports. Eventually they provided us with jail calls, which they were going to try and use to show that client wasn't injured. He got in a fight at the jail. and they wanted to make it sound as though his injuries to his ribs ⁓ during a fight in jail.

speaker-0: It's Rooster Crack. ⁓

speaker-2: What's your worst fact in your opinion from the evidence?

speaker-0: I think it's his denial.

speaker-1: I think it's that he was over with these guys. he, you know, he didn't know them. He didn't go out that day. He just was home all day. And, you know, this was all, why are you all at my house? Why am I here type thing.

speaker-3: Yeah. then it was weird that he went home and didn't do anything after that. Right. And who did you say called the police?

speaker-2: Like didn't call police or whatever. Right.

speaker-0: Nope.

speaker-1: Buddy called the police. only the I mean police would have been called because there was a shooting. The hospital would call police but there was an officer that happened to be there when these two guys show up and ⁓ he gets taken back to be treated.

speaker-0: Either way

speaker-3: Okay, okay. So there's no 911 call, there's no body camera of anything like excited at that point. It's like the body camera turns on in the hospital.

speaker-1: No, there was there because the body worn camera right got turned on at the hospital when the officer and nurse cut dates taken immediately back right so the officers trying to speak and figure out like what happened where it happened you know all those kinds of things and the cousin tells him is that they just left this which is in the brook area of Jacksonville and then he's like ⁓

speaker-0: some excite ⁓ counter. with a cousin. Who did? And the first thing that bar called in Cahoots. Later, they left the locks. Sorry, the date was so drunk. He couldn't

speaker-1: So the cousin so I mean He even tell the police like where they were at that night

speaker-0: Hmm.

speaker-3: Hmm.

speaker-2: Yes, I'm sure that's helpful in trial.

speaker-1: That was helpful.

speaker-3: Also, the date was on the phone with the cousin's wife in the emergency room, like waiting area, kind of talking to her about the shooting and telling her that they had been in a fight and they were beating this guy's ass and all of that was on the officer's body warm.

speaker-2: any ⁓ pre-trial motions or any pre-trial hearings that stand out.

speaker-1: ⁓ Filed a motion in limine to prevent us from talking about how the cousin and ⁓ kicked out of the military for that fight. So that was something that the court held in the veins, you know, just to see if it would become relevant at some point because I guess the yeah, the that he had not about his ⁓ situation in the very that's

speaker-0: Well, the state date rather have been. date had testified in his deposition, told Klien. military contrary to a client

speaker-1: told us. ⁓ And then we at one point

speaker-0: filed a pretrial immunity motion, stand your ground motions.

speaker-1: in Florida and I have

speaker-2: That's different than self-defense. I know, I think that we're all pretty familiar with the Stand Your Ground motion because of that, what was it, George Zimmerman George Zimmerman, yeah. But can you explain that just a little bit, just quickly, how that's different than self-defense?

speaker-1: Do you want to take a s*** out of it?

speaker-3: Yeah, so state your ground give you immunity from prosecution. So you go the court decides standard ground motions and if it's granted then you have immunity from prosecution where self-defense is more of a trial argument.

speaker-2: Okay, so stand your ground is not a defense to a crime. It's basically like you were standing you were in a position where you have you like didn't have the duty to retreat and you could use deadly force. Is that what I'm just guessing the law and then and so that's saying like they're saying well because you were in that position like it there's no crime committed here.

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-3: Wait, so if that's a pretrial issue, kind of the basics of it are not that different from self-defense, it's just procedurally at a different point, they have to support that with preponderance? Or how do they have to support that?

speaker-1: So to the state, if you file a ⁓ legally sufficient motion that makes a prima facie claim of self-defense, then the state has to show by evidence that you were, and so that would be a decision the judge would make. that, you have the opportunity to file an interlocutory appeal ⁓ and then have an,

speaker-0: It shifts the burden. claim, it shifts the burden to the state. stand your ground hearing the state would have to share in convincing it we're not acting in self-defense That motion is denied. appellate court rule.

speaker-1: on whether that motion should have been granted. Assuming it was properly denied, you can still make your self-defense claim to a jury.

speaker-0: And they're working with a difference. It also shifts the burden to the state there and in the state. Beyond a reasonable doubt that.

speaker-1: has to show that the defendant was not acting in self-defense. So it's pretty for the defense. At some point it was decided that the judge was going to hear her out during the trial, which really doesn't make a lot of sense because it's an emotional, but that's what she was going to do. the first day of we ultimately

speaker-0: Pretty robust. standard for us. You're the standard. unit. right.

speaker-1: ⁓ able to convince a client not to move forward on that ⁓ because again since it's a anyway it didn't it's easier for a not guilty based on self-defense than what a judge could based on the different standards so he just decided to trust us and and let it go

speaker-0: can be heard during the the jury would have had. standard.

speaker-2: So now we're getting into trial. How's your client feeling like going into trial?

speaker-0: is another.

speaker-1: He's wreck. ⁓

speaker-2: How are you guys feeling?

speaker-3: good stuff to work with. And we actually also, so here in Florida, we do board certification. So you can ⁓ be board certified in certain areas of the law. And so we had another attorney who needed ⁓ another felony trial to recertify for board cert. So she was sitting with us as well. And so generally, she and I were having a lot of fun. Troy was very locked in. And he knew this case backwards and forward. I he had read the victim's medical records. He knew just he had timestamps from every body worn. So he knew what he was doing. He had it together. Were there any plea negotiations?

speaker-1: No, the state had said, you know, that she would entertain like a double digit offer if he wanted to make one and he was not willing to sign up for 10 or more years. So no.

speaker-0: for

speaker-3: Okay, so you left it there and it's going to trial and you know for sure that it's going to be a jury trial?

speaker-1: Yeah, at this point we're into jury selection.

speaker-0: heading

speaker-3: Okay, and the defense at this point isn't necessarily self-defense, it's more accident mixed with self-defense.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's a good question.

speaker-1: When I remember going to Dina's office and saying, so I was saying that it was accidentally discharged. And so are we able to even in self-defense when it's accidentally discharged? And then I found a case on point that said, you know, if you're acting in self-defense, then you know, accidentally. That so you would still get the self-defense instruction to the jury. So, OK, yeah.

speaker-0: claim. Your act of offense and discharge could be part and parcel of

speaker-3: Okay, so you're confident that if you proffer what you need to proffer through client, you can get the instruction.

speaker-1: Yes. OK. There was a there was later and then I was like, but.

speaker-0: state raise that issue. Boom, here's the

speaker-2: Okay, so what kind of jurors are you looking for going into trial?

speaker-3: I think Jersey were just kind of skeptical.

speaker-0: Dear

speaker-1: We had to war on military and war on the gay aspects in the case and that kind of stuff.

speaker-3: And how were the responses from the jurors? Good. I mean, talking specifically about whether or not you believe gays have the right to serve in the military. Because once you get talking, then you get all kinds of opinions. we didn't really have, sometimes you get into jury selection and there's a lot of negative and kind of. crazy opinions and then I try to Colorado as much as I can. So you try to then bolster those crazy opinions and sound like you're agreeing with them, but we don't really have that too much in this case.

speaker-2: And when you say Colorado, mean jury deselect, right? Yes.

speaker-3: Yeah, which our judge is not the judge of G-Bock is not a huge fan of D-Selection.

speaker-0: you asking them how they feel?

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-3: Yeah, that wasn't big. I think we got called the sidebar. That's Vah-deer. What do mean? Why you ask them how they feel?

speaker-2: So what is, you know, when people think of Florida, right, I think they typically think of, you know, conservative, ⁓ now MAGA, which I know that's not true for everybody, you know, what is the general makeup of Jacksonville? What's the general demographic there?

speaker-3: I do think it's a little bit more conservative. Is it diverse? Yes, for some reason our jury panels aren't as much.

speaker-2: What's your client's race?

speaker-3: He's African-American. So the jury, is it all white? Yeah. Or is it? It's all white. The jury's all white, client's black. I honestly don't think he was. I think he was just... There's also a level, I think, where you have no idea really what's going on.

speaker-2: Was your client worried about that at all? It is interesting how our clients respond to jury selection because I've had many times where my client's like, ⁓ I really like that one. You do? Yeah, they just said they love police. Like, yeah, she seems nice. She's not, promise. Did you have any interesting moments or forecaused challenges or peremptory strikes?

speaker-3: You're like, wrong.

speaker-0: You want the police officer?

speaker-1: I think they did a Batson challenge on us.

speaker-2: Yeah. On you?

speaker-3: In what context?

speaker-1: They'll even that's in challenge if you're kicking off a white lady ⁓

speaker-3: You're like, everyone's a white lady.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓

speaker-2: Okay, so let's talk about opening. So the state opens first, right? Okay, so tell us a little bit about the state's opening.

speaker-1: They open.

speaker-3: It was very methodical. Basically, their argument in opening was there was this date. The client gets angry at some point when his date says, this is going to be the only date kind of thing. And there's a struggle. And he shoots them. It was kind of a short opening. thought, so there's the judge who presides over GVOC used to be a prosecutor and so she says a lot you got to handle your scandal and I didn't feel like they handled your scandal handle handle handle yeah so if you go to start with the bad fact right you're gonna handle not like sandals yeah just the difference in what the witnesses I thought were gonna testify to and say

speaker-2: Kill your what?

speaker-3: I didn't think they addressed an opening.

speaker-2: You didn't think that the state handled their scandal very well. That's what you're trying to say. their scandal. So wait, I guess, so their theory is that your client got mad when DATE said, is, you know, we're not going to have a second date and then like started beating everyone up and shooting people.

speaker-3: or their sandals. Yeah.

speaker-2: So this is basically like a credibility war. Like this is a he said he said. Okay. That's the state's opening. How about your opening? Who opened?

speaker-1: Darcy opened and...

speaker-2: The person who was getting their board certification hours.

speaker-1: Yeah, Darcy's awesome. Shout out to Darcy.

speaker-2: Yeah, shout out Darcy. Let's hear about Darcy's opening.

speaker-1: ⁓ Basically, there's going to be a few things that won't be in doubt no matter.

speaker-0: said, you know.

speaker-1: ⁓ Who you believe or don't believe like everyone's drinking whether they admit it that there were some arguments That it was two-on-one. Mr. Griffin being the one and the smallest of them ⁓ that he was beaten and he was terrified and that he was defending his own life and that Mr. Holton was shot like those things will not be in dispute and then you know pay attention closely to the evidence and what the witnesses say and inconsistencies and you know that sort of thing but she kind of bullet pointed things that like were indisputable and that also supported our theory of defense.

speaker-2: Okay, so she was saying that, you know, it's two on one, there was drinking, someone got shot. are facts not in dispute.

speaker-3: Which is a great approach because the theory of defense is kind of locked down, but not necessarily. It sounds like you're going to see how it goes down. yeah, anything that just highlights the confusion of the situation is a clean way to go.

speaker-1: X ⁓

speaker-2: Did say your client was going to testify?

speaker-1: ⁓ she did. Yeah, she said you're going to hear from him. And, ⁓ at that point we knew that he was going to have to testify. So yeah, she mentioned that. ⁓ what else? It was kind of a, you know, maybe five, 10 minute opening. It wasn't that long.

speaker-0: I think that was, it was.

speaker-2: That's fine. I think you got to prime them and get out of there so they don't get bored. Okay, so then who was the state's first witness?

speaker-1: Yeah. They put on the date. Yeah,

speaker-2: Be strong.

speaker-0: Ha ha ha.

speaker-3: Yeah.

speaker-2: Never mind. Never mind.

speaker-1: So he gets up there and basically tells what he had told the initial detective. I want to say that he didn't mention going back to his house. He definitely didn't mention all the drinking that was going on. ⁓

speaker-2: Did he mention going back to his house in the deposition? Were you able to impeach him on that or did he ever say?

speaker-1: Okay. Yeah, he said that in the deposition. The cousin did as well. then, yeah, the cousin said that he was in the car the whole time. Date was in his deposition said that cousin got out of the car at some point. So, you know, we had a lot to work with as far as that goes.

speaker-2: So his direct was just basically what he told his initial statement to police.

speaker-1: Pretty much. Okay. And so then on cross, ⁓ I started asking him about, you didn't you thought you were in cahoots, right? You were saying that you're gonna beat my clients ass, right? And then he denies that. So then we go, okay, refresh recollection with the body worn camera. And I think we did that a couple of times and afterwards he was just kind of compliant like, yeah, I said that. Yeah. I said this. I said that. ⁓ does he see

speaker-2: Does he seem drunk on the body-worn camera?

speaker-1: He seems plastered on the body-worn thing. Wonderful. Which we didn't actually introduce. We probably could have got it in as an excited utterance or whatnot, but he pretty much admitted to everything that we wanted him to admit to on cross, so it wasn't necessary to get into all that.

speaker-3: Great.

speaker-0: didn't.

speaker-2: So Hugh, you guys just like shredded his credibility basically on Cross.

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, and the one I think one of my first questions to him was Talking about so you all were in the car and you were driving and you were talking about your military experience and you and you made a disclosure to client to to Terrell about your separation from the military didn't you and then there's an objection from the state and so we have to go sidebar pretty much for every objection and the states like You know

speaker-0: We fought emotion and limiting on this. know we're not.

speaker-1: supposed to talk about this and judges like well he hasn't answered the question yet and you know depending on how he answers then we'll you know know whether it can be brought up or not and so go back and say you told him why you separated from the military didn't you yeah and you separated from the military yeah yeah so within like the first two minutes like their whole their motion limit he was like off the window

speaker-0: because you got into a fight didn't you?

speaker-3: Go Jackets! Okay, it's interesting that the judge though handled it on the record. Like if it were flipped, I'd be pissed, but great for us.

speaker-1: So I think that was all with the date and then they put the cousin up next and the cousin's version of how he got shot was just wild, right? Because he's maintaining that he's just sitting in the car the whole time, that this bullet magically like goes through the car door and through the car seat and he still thinks that he was.

speaker-2: He was saying that he was sitting in the car and client was outside of the car

speaker-3: with the date and the client is heading into it, got out of the car and while they're scuffling he gets shot.

speaker-2: Wouldn't he have to have shot from like below the car?

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-3: Or got shot. Yeah, I mean, maybe if you're in the backseat and you shoot into somebody's

speaker-2: but you still have to be like up through.

speaker-1: Well, other thing is date our cousin thinks that the bullet went into his penis which the medical records show That the bullet went into his buttock and then out with the penis. So he never knew Like what the you know what the trajectory was?

speaker-2: I guess that makes more sense than if he like, yeah, he just was lying.

speaker-1: Yeah, and I had to ask cousin to ⁓ I although I knew he would deny it I kind of wanted to lay the foundation so I asked cousin like you propositioned my client like give you some head didn't you? Of course he denies that but you know at that point now the jury's like, ⁓ okay, what's right? What's this preview?

speaker-2: Yeah, they perked up, I'm sure. It's about to get juicy.

speaker-3: Yeah. ⁓ I'm really angry about it because they made this big deal about how that was the first time that the cousin had ever learned that his cousin was a homosexual. You remember that? It was this whole thing about how he had no idea that our client and his cousin were even on a date until later.

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah

speaker-2: he go to like a gay bar? Or was it a regular? Or was it just like a not a gay bar?

speaker-0: Yeah, that's super.

speaker-1: This was a regular bar that they went to, know, Date was saying that they'd left the Sk-Bar when he first encountered police. ⁓ There was another thing that, so there was a lot of medical records and buried within the medical records was ⁓ that the cousin was being treated for HIV. And so that little nugget was something that would maybe tend to support my client's contention that They might have swung both ways, but I wasn't going to make, you know, I, I didn't know how to bring that up. The medical records had been admitted into evidence just by stipulation. So I was going to, and I didn't want to, I brought, I didn't even bring it up in closing, but I did. We can talk about that later, but like, I didn't want to ask him about the HIV thing on the stand. ⁓ it just felt kind of icky, but I knew that I was going to be able to kind of allude to it later. So.

speaker-3: When you say it felt icky, do you mean just from an ethical or personal standpoint, it felt ⁓ like foul play to play that angle or play that to some degree stereotype or that it just ⁓ seemed irrelevant?

speaker-1: Yeah, the stereotype, like arguing that stereotype felt icky. ⁓ and I knew that it was something that was going to come out during my close since that evidence had been admitted already. So I just kind of left it there. But ⁓ yeah, I didn't I didn't want to make an argument like, ⁓ he must be, you know. down low because he has HIV, like that's, didn't want to make that argument.

speaker-2: Okay, so that was that all for cousins testimony Okay, who who how many witnesses did they put on?

speaker-1: I think so. I think they probably put on like 12 witnesses and I think that almost all of them was to establish ID. Like they weren't even, it was all about like date was, client was there, client was with them. Like it was, I don't, even though we'd filed a stand your ground motion. So, you know, they had to be on notice. That's just a self-defense claim. They were, they were, all their witnesses seemed to be focused on that client was with them that night.

speaker-2: Do we need to go through all 12 witnesses? Okay, so then who did they put on next?

speaker-1: No, no.

speaker-3: I think the initial responding officer was important. He was at the emergency room when they got there. Okay. And so they put him on and through that witness we were able to establish Thanks to Troy's incredible time stamping of his body warm. You know, just how intoxicated the cousin and the date were, what the date was screaming on the cell phone about, you know, beating up our client. That's also, I think we started with him maybe kind of what he saw in the car or didn't see in the car. But I think it was, he was helpful to just kind of highlight.

speaker-2: Wonderful.

speaker-3: how intoxicated they were. So you got in the statements about them kicking clients ass through the officer? Yeah.

speaker-1: Like he said, like my cousin started instantly choking him. He said, I'm about to fuck this inward up. He was choking him and I was punching him. And then the date was upset because he wasn't getting good shots. And he's like, I want to fight this guy. These are all things that he was saying on the phone while he was sitting in the hospital.

speaker-2: Was he like bragging to this person? great evidence.

speaker-1: I think we got it in through him and then we also got it in through the officer. So it's kind of duplicative, Yeah, yeah, I hear it again. Yeah, again.

speaker-2: Great notes. Tell them again. ⁓ Okay, so that was like the function of that officer's testimony for your case.

speaker-1: Yeah, we also got out through him like ⁓ the date while he was at the hospital he was there for quite a while and he was wanting to go home but they kept making him wait for the detectives to show up. But during this period of time like he's kind of walking all over the place at one point he tried to go back into the car that had already been taped off with police tape ⁓ and we were getting through that officer that he was you know had access to the car at one point because there was no tequila bottle found in the car. So. we wanted to kind of insinuate or argue that he had gotten rid of the tequila bottle either while the car was at the hospital or somewhere along the way. But we felt like that would be something that the jury would be wondering is where's this tequila bottle that client was battered with? ⁓

speaker-2: Right, you were about to say. Okay, was there anybody else that was? Okay, yeah, let's talk.

speaker-1: The main detective. Yeah, Dina eviscerated him.

speaker-3: All right, team.

speaker-2: Okay, let's hear it.

speaker-1: It was awesome.

speaker-3: Let's go. think, you know, just pointing out that, well, really there was no investigation, right? They took whatever the guy said in the emergency room and rolled with it.

speaker-1: You made a really good ending point with the ⁓ medical records and how he'd never reviewed those because those contradicted what the cousin had been saying as to where he was shot and all that kind of stuff. I think your last question was, well, that would have been helpful to look at if you're trying to establish how this shooting happened, right? And I think he had to agree with that.

speaker-0: You

speaker-2: That's very satisfying when that happens. really is.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-3: Yeah, I know. it's like having someone on the stand is kind of, mean, I like our job for that reason because we kind of provide accountability through random audits. You know, like when you're an officer filing a charge, you have no idea if you're going to have to at any point testify to anything related to that. And statistically, you're not. But every once in a while you are and you're up there just like.

speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very painful for everybody but us. Okay, so that was, so you shredded his credibility. ⁓ Who else testified for the state?

speaker-3: So. Yeah. The main people.

speaker-1: I had the... Yeah, they had the FBI agent come in and they had done like your location.

speaker-3: It sounds better, right?

speaker-2: ⁓ okay, so you've got some- Right.

speaker-1: Yeah, so all to establish that he was with these guys, right? It's like we've we already said that he was with them in our openings.

speaker-0: Yeah!

speaker-2: Right, yeah, they've already planned it all, so they're just gonna do it. Was there anyone else that moved the case along, you know, as far as you guys were concerned, or was that pretty much it?

speaker-3: Yeah, no, no. So as far as your worst facts that you were scared of being clients denial outright that he was ever there, the fact that client went home, the fact that like he wasn't on scene for any of the aftermath, did those did those facts come out?

speaker-1: I mean, the state asked their witnesses about, you know, client's appearance, you know, when he was arrested and then, of course, his denials and his interview. I mean, think that was it. They've definitely brought those bad facts out through their witnesses.

speaker-2: All right, and then so then you guys put on a case.

speaker-3: How's the client feeling at this point?

speaker-1: He said bundle of nerves. I we kept going through his direct like over and over and over again. I think that on our break right before he testified we went through it again and ⁓ you know he mostly was able to stay on script.

speaker-3: So halftime clients, still extremely nervous. It's your guys turn. Your plan is put on client, and that's pretty much it, right? ⁓

speaker-1: But on client, yep. he, ⁓ we go through his testimony and it's exactly as I explained before from our first meeting when he told me the whole story. ⁓ And we also had... plan to do a demonstration for the jury ⁓ about how all of this went down in the car. So we got some chairs and put them in the well. And then I acted as though I was the date sitting in the front driver's seat, client sitting in the back rear passenger seat. And we acted out for them exactly, you know, how this altercation occurred. And ⁓ the funny part was after after clients hit with the tequila bottle right he gets out of the car and then as I mentioned the cousin gets out of the car and puts him in a chokehold and so I say demonstrate for the jury how he put you in a chokehold and he grabbed me and like

speaker-3: I was like...

speaker-2: That's pretty good though because it shows how violent it is.

speaker-0: Very disgusting.

speaker-1: busting out laughing. Everybody was laughing and I was like, okay, this is gold right here. We had also planned to act out the part where the client's on the ground and then date gets on his back and I was going to be the client with the date on top of me. And I was like, okay, don't change the plan. Especially after he just put me in this chokehold.

speaker-2: Honestly though, I think a lot of people listen to the show for interesting and unique practice tips. And I think that's one of them is, you can use the well, you can act stuff out, you don't have to just describe stuff. I'm inspired by that.

speaker-1: Yeah, it is very effective.

speaker-3: So creative and it's so humanizing. Like here's someone charged with attempted murder and he's there with his attorney, attorney's completely comfortable with this man having his hands around his neck. And it's a joke. Like in that moment everyone's laughing. So it's just so humanizing.

speaker-2: My fear in court is like passing out during like, like in front of the judge or in front of a jury and like soiling myself so I don't f*** if like I would feel comfortable doing that because I think about that a lot. Like waking up like, did I s***?

speaker-3: You

speaker-0: I'm sorry.

speaker-3: You

speaker-2: You did. good for you. Good for you, Joy. So it went as expected on direct then, and even better than expected.

speaker-0: ⁓ Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, we had to come up with the reason why he denied knowing these guys. So I think we talked about the talk, ⁓ you know, that all that black boys get when they are growing up from their parents and like you don't cooperate with the police or and stuff like that. And then I had him walk through like the the emotions and experience of actually being in that interview room and how it was cold and everything's metal and the smells that he smelled. and you know like really trying to just like bring it to life like what it was like sitting there as to explain why he would potentially you know not be truthful about what had happened.

speaker-2: Okay, yeah, that's also, you know, great stuff to bring up, the talk and the emotions and the sensations of being interrogated. Because I think a lot of people think that they would act normal when faced with this, I think that's not true.

speaker-1: Yeah, they had him in that interrogation room for hours before they even came to speak with him. So at some point, like he's asleep and, you know, I think the state was trying to painted as like, this is not how somebody would act when they've, when they've been in this situation, especially if it's self-defense, like everybody would act a certain way. And we were just really trying to, you know, explain to the jury, like not everybody's going to act the same way. Not everybody's going to, you know, just be totally forthcoming with what happened.

speaker-2: And so that was that basically like your direct then.

speaker-1: Yeah, that was my direct.

speaker-2: Yeah, let's talk about the cross. you nervous about the cross?

speaker-1: ⁓ god yeah, yeah, I thought yeah ⁓ They didn't really land a lot of punches. I don't think on the cross It was one of those and crutch across is where it's just like

speaker-3: to cross.

speaker-2: Why would you lie? Who lies? Stuff like that.

speaker-1: Yeah, I was like, and this jury to this and it's like, yeah, I do. Because that's what happened. Right? Like he, held up pretty good.

speaker-0: You want to

speaker-3: And yeah, every punch they could have land you guys already had addressed pretty much like you knew it was coming out and yeah

speaker-0: There is. ⁓

speaker-1: one thing that we were not going to talk about in the direct where he when he was running through the park jumping fences he dropped the gun and so we we were just gonna like ignore the gun altogether and he and that was our plan and he mentioned that he dropped the gun when he was running through the park and I didn't like

speaker-2: injury?

speaker-1: Yeah, I didn't like that because we're wanting the jury to think that he's a responsible gun owner and acting in a reasonable manner. But he drops the gun and then he never tells police that, I dropped a gun in the middle of a park where kids play and stuff like that. So we were just going to, you know, they don't bring it up. We're not going to bring it up. He brought it up and said he dropped the gun. But they never went back and asked him about that. So I thought they kind of dropped the ball there. Right.

speaker-2: Yeah, they could have gone.

speaker-3: Drop the gun.

speaker-1: Yeah, good job.

speaker-0: I the gun.

speaker-2: You're not handled. You beat me to it. ⁓ so then you leave the cross feeling pretty good then.

speaker-1: They handling the skin? Yeah, felt pretty good. ⁓ So client had testified, you know, that he he went to the hospital or he went to go get medical care after after he got out of jail. And so the state opened a rebuttal. We closed. We rested after our client. But, yeah, the state ⁓ brought in a rebuttal witness, ⁓ the custodian of records for the jail because they wanted to introduce jail calls where ⁓ He was talking with somebody and he was saying Like yeah, my ribs are real fucked up and then I then I done gotten to a fight ⁓ Like the first day I was there and They were trying to make it sound like he was saying that he got his ribs fucked up in this fight Like he wasn't at the jail like he wasn't injured, but it was like totally not the way He said it on the phone.

speaker-2: doesn't sound like that at all.

speaker-1: No, they were just trying to make it sound the way they wanted it to sound, not what he had actually said. So they opened the case up to do that and then...

speaker-3: And also, he wanted to put in the interrogation video.

speaker-1: Yeah, so. That's right. They brought in the interrogation video. They had taken out the part where he invoked and then they picked up like after that and mostly it's just him sitting there and like Dina said they're trying to show that he wasn't injured. He's moving around blah blah blah and at one point I don't know why he did this but at one point like he flips a chair over and it's got chrome legs so he's like looking in like looking at his reflection and the chrome chair leg and he's like constantly picking out his chin hairs and I thought they were gonna bring that up to like show that he's trying to like change his identity or something I don't know like he was steady like pulling out his chin hairs and then for no reason other than just to be a snot they play this part of the video where he lets out this long long ass part and it was just like ⁓ my yeah

speaker-2: I'm gonna him.

speaker-3: Yes.

speaker-2: Nature called. Come on, stay.

speaker-3: Cause you think you're alone but surveillance doesn't rest. Yo that is so bad for the state. It's like you are relying on a fart to prove an attempted murder. Right! Your case is ass.

speaker-1: No.

speaker-2: That's funny, yeah. I don't think jurors like that. mean, like, they're just like regular people, right? Like they don't want to hear that. They don't want to see that. So then they closed, did you like cross on any of that?

speaker-1: Yeah, it was totally unnecessary. French. I don't know. I don't think so. We just argued, you know, in closing that his statements on the the jail call weren't what they were trying to make them out to be.

speaker-2: Well, let's talk about close. So do the does the state close first? Yeah. OK, so what's their initial close like?

speaker-1: State closes first. I was underwhelmed with it.

speaker-3: Yeah, the is always little bit more formal. ⁓

speaker-2: These are the technical.

speaker-1: I don't think they made any strong points to contradict the self-defense claim in the first close.

speaker-3: Okay. Unmoved by the state's closing.

speaker-2: And then, Troy, you closed, right?

speaker-1: I closed. ⁓ actually did a PowerPoint.

speaker-0: I did, I started out by

speaker-3: You ⁓

speaker-2: you

speaker-1: I just by saying, know, client got up here, he told you his truth. He told you what happened. ⁓ Date, he has no fucking idea what happened. He thinks that he left his gay bar and then started going through like with with his testimony, the date's testimony about, you know, how this contradicts what the cousin said, how ⁓ how basically just hammering on how intoxicated he was. and then moved on to Cousin. So I kind of did it chronologically, which I know is not always the best way to do it, but I felt like in this case it made sense to kind of take it chronologically. So I was kind of telling the story from client's perspective and then date's perspective and then cousin's perspective. During when I was talking about Cousin, That's when I brought in the medical records and I never argued that he that his ⁓ HIV status, you know, was indicative that he was ⁓ bisexual or anything like that. I just didn't feel comfortable with that. But within the records, I had ⁓ taken a page and put it on the on the slide. And it was actually a slide from anesthesiologist notes where it talked about ⁓ how the patient was ⁓ Acute eto H intoxication and then broke that down like he he had alcohol poisoning from that Yeah from that night So he had alcohol poisoning and that he was arousable and following commands But he was non consentable and then broke that down for the jury like this guy's so drunk He can't even provide consent for surgery, right? So like we can't believe his version of what happened ⁓

speaker-2: Same night.

speaker-3: the state attorney thought when they realized that actually read you get medical records in hundreds of pages

speaker-1: Yeah, on that same page is where it said history of HIV and then talked about the medications he was on so I didn't bring it up but it was just on the PowerPoint just like right there for them to see and I left it there for quite a while and yeah told him invited them to go review that page and then made some comment like you know I think I think cousins got a little secret he's trying to keep from us so that's kind of the way I handled that ⁓ and then pulled up the page where it talked about the trajectory of the bullet going into the buttocks and out through the penis and so how that obviously, ⁓ know, cousin's version of events could not be true at all. ⁓ And then hit on how there was a bullet in the back seat. So that bullet had to have come out when client pulled out the gun They were both saying they never saw a gun until he got out of the car and this fight happened he pulls out the gun and That bullet being in the backseat was like physical evidence that corroborated the client's story that he pulled the gun out and used it in self-defense to you know hit the date Talked about how the injury to the client to the dates. I was like a a line, you know, it looked like a butt of a gun, it didn't look like somebody getting punched. So, you know, just invited them to like, you know, use their common sense as the state likes to always say that this, you know, this couldn't have gone down as either one of these two witnesses testified to. And so when you take everybody's story and you look at the physical evidence, it corroborates that that our client was telling the truth and that he was being attacked and ⁓ that this was self-defense.

speaker-3: Perfect.

speaker-2: And then let's talk about the state's rebuttal. And then I want to talk about how you felt about your clothes.

speaker-3: So she, I enjoyed the second class because I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. She got up and started ⁓ yelling, right? And she just starts about how now the shooting was because client had been on the state and he saw where this guy lived and our client was living at home with his parents and saying he was jealous of the apartment. And then he was jealous because the date had a car. She lost it at some point, it really spiraled into the next...

speaker-1: like

speaker-2: Okay, so nothing great in the rebuttal. Troy, how did you feel about your clothes?

speaker-1: ⁓ god, wasn't after it was done. I sat down and I realized that I'd never even argued the lessers ⁓ So there you know, could have been aggravated battery or attempted manslaughter and I had a full Slide on it. So it's kind of hard to explain those differences to a jury about like what elements, you know are missing from ⁓ the lessers and

speaker-0: PowerPoints.

speaker-1: I for some reason just completely blanked on it. Then when I sat down, I was like, oh fuck, like I didn't argue the lessers. And so after the jury went to retire, we we went to the attorney, the lounge. And I was just like, oh my God, oh my God, like, this seems like malpractice that I didn't even argue that. then Darcy is so sweet. She's like, I really want to argue lessers because we're like saying, you know,

speaker-0: you in this kind of case I don't know that you even

speaker-1: that this was self-defense, so why then give them the opportunity to like, you know, find them guilty of something lesser if they're... So it ended up working out, but yeah.

speaker-2: But I do agree with Darcy that like, although it's scary, I think in a case like this, you're saying that it's a justified crime. So it has to be not guilty. So after a close, know, you're kind of bummed. How's your client doing?

speaker-1: I don't really know how he was doing. I know when he came back after we got the bell and there was a verdict, ⁓ he came back and he was just like, if he could look white like a ghost, he'd look the whitest.

speaker-2: That moment is nerve-racking for us. I can't imagine how it is for the clients.

speaker-3: I can't imagine. How long were they out?

speaker-0: They were out for...

speaker-1: three almost four hours I think and as time was going by I was thinking ⁓ this is bad because to me this is pretty clear that it was self-defense and if they don't see it that quickly then you know they're trying to figure out what charge to put on them instead of not guilty. ⁓ Now Darcy again it's like no I think this good I think this is good the longer they're out you know it's probably better for us so who knows it's hard to read those tea leaves.

speaker-0: This is good.

speaker-2: It's impossible actually, I Okay, so you get the bell. Get the bell. So then what, like, does your heart immediately drop? What's going on with you?

speaker-0: You

speaker-3: Very.

speaker-1: Get the bell. Yeah, I'm trying to be cool, know walking in you know trying to trying to look like we got this for the client and I remember the court reporter looks over at me and she said how many not guilty have you gotten and I was like well not very many you know maybe two or three and she's like well you're about to get another and I was like ⁓ okay She just she just knew she knew from the way that everything had come out that this was a defense verdict I guess

speaker-2: What, did know or did just said that? Yeah, that's cool. So she's trying to boost your confidence a little bit. So you're there with the client, the jury walks in. Are you trying to see like if they're looking at you or looking at your faces? Okay, what do they look like?

speaker-3: I see.

speaker-1: They weren't

speaker-3: down. And I don't know if that's true or not right, but you're always like, wait, if they're, are they looking at us? But I think they were just trying to avoid the standard turnings. That's my Yeah, there was no winking or anything like that.

speaker-2: Okay, so then tell us the process of reading the verdict. I know it's different in every jurisdiction, so tell us, of walk us through the moment.

speaker-1: No. Yeah, so the judge says, understand you reached a verdict. The four person passes the verdict forms up to the judge. She reviews them just to make sure that they haven't missed anything and that, you know, there's no exceptions or whatever. Then they hand it to the clerk to publish. And when she said not guilty, I just looked over a client and he started bawling. And then I started guys trying to choke back tears and then got the second not guilty. And it was just like, which

speaker-2: How charge do they read first, the attempted murder?

speaker-1: The attempted murder with the 25 year old man was first I believe.

speaker-2: So you kept getting the not guilty's, walk us through all of that. Yeah.

speaker-3: .

speaker-1: Yeah, I mean not guilty and then count two not guilty and he's done he's able to walk out the door Yeah, we were like, ⁓ I think Darcy said we need to take this outside he's looking displeased with the with the jubilations

speaker-3: He was hugging.

speaker-2: ⁓ boy, cares, I mean...

speaker-1: Wow. ⁓

speaker-2: That's amazing. I cannot even imagine the relief that he felt.

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. Me too. was like, I just, I've never had that much pressure on me in my entire life. I just, I felt like I was floating after that.

speaker-2: I bet.

speaker-3: It's an unimaginable, well we can imagine it because we do it, just that quantity of pressure and an outcome happens like that quickly. It all comes down to that moment where someone's just reading a piece of paper. And there's of things about our job that are not like the movies, but that absolutely is. It is that dramatic, it is that stressful, and it's real. Are you kidding me?

speaker-1: That's weird. So after that we went out to get some photographs and ⁓ his boyfriend was there, his boyfriend was just, could not stop crying. then what clients say at the end to you, Dina?

speaker-3: About how he wasn't going to get on dating apps for a while?

speaker-2: Okay, well boyfriend standing right here, ⁓

speaker-3: You

speaker-2: For a while, it funny too. I'm going to give it a short break. OK, so have you kept up with Client? Do you know how he's doing now?

speaker-0: Yeah

speaker-1: Yeah, he's doing well. ⁓ talked to him last week to tell him about the show and make sure he's cool with everything being shared. Yeah, he's doing well. He's working. ⁓ He says he's doing good. He's steady out of trouble.

speaker-0: So.

speaker-2: What a harrowing blip in someone's life, you know, to like have no criminal record, go on a date, have this like horrible trial where you beat the charges and then just move on with your life and, you know, live normally again. Like, what a crazy experience to have. Like can't.

speaker-3: is so well said. A harrowing blip.

speaker-2: Yeah, remember that time I started the attempted murder and I got acquitted? That's crazy. Want to go to Inka Hoots? Right.

speaker-0: Okay.

speaker-3: It was an old- ⁓

speaker-1: You

speaker-2: Alright, yeah, well done, well done. I learned a lot. think next time I'm gonna try to do some type of, you know, live reenactment or something in one of my trials.

speaker-3: Yeah, reenact the full attempted murder.

speaker-2: Yeah, Okay, so this is the part of our show where we ask our guests what we call the ultimate question. ⁓ Why did you want to become a public defender, Troy? We'll start with you.

speaker-0: So after law school.

speaker-1: I didn't really know what I wanted to do I thought I was gonna work and do like civil rights work and I Couldn't find anybody to hire me to do that. So ⁓ I started my own firm and did that for about ten years and then ⁓ Adam and I got married and he was working at the PD's office and I would hear about how much fun it was and the camaraderie and I just kind of felt like I wasn't really, you know, doing anything to help people. I was fighting over property and time sharing and kids and stuff like that and then COVID hit and then I just felt like I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing. So I just wanted to use my privilege for helping people and so. That's what I get to do and stick it to the man or at least try to.

speaker-3: Stick it to the man.

speaker-2: Definitely a calling for sure, no matter when you find it. It's very satisfying. Dina?

speaker-3: I went to law school with lot of the or several people who became public defenders in Jacksonville and they seem to be having a lot more fun than I was at work and I liked being in courtrooms so it was really the idea of trial for me why I came over and I just very quickly realized that the criminal justice system will absolutely run you over if you don't have somebody who's willing to stand beside you and make sure that it doesn't. And that's why I'm still here. yeah. Well said. Well said. And public defenders are fun. That's a common theme. Someone was doing something like, because of all this type of law, and they kind of like look over into like that office building, and they're like having a party every day.

speaker-2: That's right. It's like it's hard and it's gritty and I like that about it and I could not imagine doing anything else

speaker-3: Well, great job, guys. You crushed it. And yeah, just an honor to talk to two more PDs, three, including Darcy, who's not here, but who just laid it all out to protect a client in another neck of the woods in another state in our country. So just great job, and all the best to you. And when you get another NG, let us know.

speaker-2: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. was great talking to you. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty. Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A &G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix. And guess what? We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.

speaker-0: Thanks for