speaker-0: you There's no officer. Because he knows he's lying. He has to admit things. If he was being honest, you're at a bar, you're drinking, of course you had more than one or two beers in four hours, right? But why do you have to say that? Because you're lying about everything. That's why you're not mentioned in the wait rooms, right? That's not why you're mentioned in being mad. He has a guilty conscience. You know he has a guilty conscience. I'm talking about reasonable doubt. Where's the police officer? Where are the other store employees? If this was such a vicious attack with a bottle that shocked the census, that came out of nowhere, you'd have the entire restaurant here. But they aren't. Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system. Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system. These stories are about the not-guilties public defenders get on a daily basis. ...the criminal system. With the deck stacked against us.

speaker-1: basis in an unjust criminal

speaker-2: Alright, alright. Welcome to another episode of Another Not Guilty. My name is Dallas Gutman. I'm a public defender in good ol' Cincinnati, Ohio.

speaker-1: My name is Rachel McKay. I'm a public defender as well. came up with Dallas in Cincinnati. I'm currently actually in Puerto Rico, full disclosure, but Dallas and I came up in Cincinnati together and we are here today with a throwback round two from one of our best guests of all time, Stanford Frazier out of PG County, Maryland.

speaker-2: go. Stanford, you have a few new life updates. Let's talk about that.

speaker-0: I got a four month old. Exciting, exciting.

speaker-2: Congrats!

speaker-0: you

speaker-1: ⁓ congrats.

speaker-2: Are you sleeping?

speaker-0: Last night was a little rough, he's a solid sleeper.

speaker-2: Here, there, here and there, good.

speaker-1: That's a blessing. ⁓ My brother has a little one and they haven't slept in four years.

speaker-0: Hahaha!

speaker-2: Don't worry, you will, you will. Other people don't, but you will.

speaker-1: No, yeah, you will. What's baby's name?

speaker-0: Well, his name is Stanford as well, so we call him Trey. Trey. He's the third one.

speaker-2: Okay. right. ⁓ right. Cause he's the Stanford Frazier. Wow. That's cool. That's cool.

speaker-1: That is a powerful name.

speaker-0: Yeah, just go for it. And then me and my wife, as a granny joke, we always spell the tray differently every week. So our favorite one still the tray like nay, so like T-R-E-I-G-H, you know.

speaker-2: ⁓ I like that.

speaker-1: So then you couldn't have it in this meeting.

speaker-0: And that yeah, so you know, there's like, you know, there's TRE TRE why

speaker-1: What are the other ones?

speaker-2: T-R-A-Y like a serving truck. Yeah.

speaker-0: Because obviously you guys can join in. can join in. then there's T-R-A-E, like Trey Young, who is now a Washington Wizard, know, the little sports reference. if listeners call for more, you know, put it in the comments. When you give a five star review, submit your spelling.

speaker-1: There's TRE with the accent. Yes. M-A-E ⁓ Submit your trace back. Submit your trace back. And that's not the only life update. What's the other?

speaker-2: So then we'll run out soon.

speaker-0: The other one is I'm running for the Maryland House of Delegates. It's our state house. And yeah, I'm running for office. Primary, June 23rd, 2026. Get excited.

speaker-1: Alright!

speaker-2: Let's go. All right, so.

speaker-1: Primary June 23rd.

speaker-2: We're going to talk about your campaign a little bit later in the episode and kind of what your, platforms you're running on and how you're planning on, you know, making Maryland a better place for all and using your public defender knowledge and mission and values to bring that to the house. So I can't wait to talk to you about that a little bit later in the episode. But first I want to get to this not guilty you have for us today. Yeah. So what, what, what's your client charged with?

speaker-0: Get into it. So this is my first jury trial story. So my client is basically charged with assault in the second degree, that's our misdemeanor assault. We only have two in Maryland, as well as disorderly conduct. Disorderly conduct carried a max 60 days in jail, but then assault second degree, even though it's a misdemeanor, we have 10 year misdemeanors in Maryland, so it carries up to 10 years in jail.

speaker-1: What?

speaker-2: In prison or jail?

speaker-0: I guess prison. If you get more than 18 months, it can be prison. Yes.

speaker-2: Whoa.

speaker-1: Wait, misdemeanor assault in Maryland can carry a maximum of 10 years?

speaker-0: It's a weird system. have some misdemeanors that carry a large amount of penalties, but we also have sentencing guidelines. So if you don't have record, your guidelines would be much, much lower than that.

speaker-2: So if you're just like constantly misdemeanorly assaulting people, they're like, all right, you gotta do 10.

speaker-0: I yeah, potentially. Whoa. There's been some movement to add like an assault third degree so there's like more differentiation, right? But it's never happened or hasn't happened yet.

speaker-2: That's shocking.

speaker-1: Hey, we'll get to that at the end, I bet.

speaker-2: Yeah

speaker-0: teaser

speaker-2: Exactly. Okay.

speaker-1: So your client is in what kind of sentencing bracket? Like what's your client facing?

speaker-0: Hmm. I mean, he didn't have a record. So I think he probably would have been facing like between like probation in one year. But the allegations are that, you know, it was a, I guess a dispute and like a, like one of those restaurants, it's like slash a bar that like maybe on the nights and weekends sounds a little clubby and that like he allegedly clubby broke a bottle over someone else's head because he was drunk more or less.

speaker-2: This is classic misdemeanor shenanigans. Classic, a drunk person offends another drunk person and we get to criminal charges somehow. what's the state's theory of your case?

speaker-0: I mean, I think I gave it. think the state's theory is that my client had too much to drink on, I don't know, on $5 tequila night or something. And in a rage, maybe just in sloppiness, like brutally attacks, right, as they try to describe it. Another person with a bottle, there's like injury, there's lots of blood. Client gets arrested.

speaker-2: Okay, so how do you meet your client?

speaker-0: So I have to do a little background on Maryland. So we have two levels of the trial court, the district court, and the circuit court. And basically, one case is that basically all misdemeanors, more or less, start in the district court where you have nothing but bench trials. So trials in front of a judge. And what's interesting, though, is that if you lose that bench trial, you can appeal de novo to a jury trial in the circuit court. Or. If you don't really like what's about to happen in district court, we call it a jury trial prayer. If the maximum penalty of what you're facing is more than 90 days in jail, you can say, you know what? I want to skip this bench trial. I want to go straight to a jury trial in the circuit court. Does that make sense?

speaker-1: Wow. So you can do your bench trial, lose your bench trial and the appeal, like are you then automatically granted a jury trial or do you have to win essentially win the appeal to have a jury?

speaker-0: If you just file a line of appeal if you want it and then you can have a trial. But it's like different in every jurisdiction because let's say you come into court, we would never judicial shop. But let's say it's a judge you don't want to have a trial in front of and you ask for a jury trial prayer. Like in Pritzker County, we have something called like CA day, where basically every two months or every six weeks, all the like criminal appeals or criminal jury trial prayers are like handled on that one day.

speaker-2: ⁓ okay. So it's actually good for your clients then this system. Because even though if it's a lower level misdemeanor, you can't have a jury trial. If you don't like where you're at, you can kind of get out of it. You can ask.

speaker-0: I think so. I think so. You can ask for a jury trial, yeah. Or sometimes, you know, sometimes you have arguments that are more legally tailored to a judge, but sometimes you have an argument that maybe, you know, a repeat player would be desensitized to, but 12 members, 12 of your peers, right, that's what the Constitution says, would understand that and find you not guilty.

speaker-2: the emotional argument exactly.

speaker-1: Bring it to the box. When the judge is too familiar, you bring it to the box.

speaker-2: Is this what your client availed himself of? This prayer?

speaker-1: Hehehehehe

speaker-0: Yes, so what's interesting is I didn't meet him until after he made this jury trial prayer. And I think something happened in which he wasn't like doing the right things to apply for public defender. So I think he made that jury trial prayer without a lawyer. Yes.

speaker-2: Okay. Himself? It's always so funny to me how clients know how to do stuff in court.

speaker-0: Yeah. And then the background is like, was my first jury trial. like when you start, you do a lot of bench trials or you can do a lot of bench trials. And the joke is you can always fix any mistake you do. Right. So when I first started, I had a lot of trials, but I was like 18 months in and I hadn't had a jury trial yet. So then my office was like assigning me cases that they really think had a strong chance of being a jury trial on what we call CA day.

speaker-1: Okay. And this was one of them.

speaker-2: So that's kind of how you got there. OK, so when you meet your client, is he out or in? OK, and he's out. And what does he say about the case?

speaker-0: Exactly. He's out. So I meet him and then, you know, he's mostly Spanish speaking, but speaks a little bit of English and you know, I speak some Spanish as well. So we communicate that way. Sometimes we use the language line translator, sometimes I'm just speaking Spanish at him. And he basically says, it's funny, we were talking, we talking, I was trying to get this story out, he wasn't trying to say it at first, but then he basically says, yeah, so I'm at this place, I'm at the lounge, I'm having a good time. But he said he's flirting with the waitress, the pretty waitress everybody likes, more or less. And then-

speaker-2: Okay.

speaker-1: Okay. He waitress he is flirting with wait. ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah, he reaches you know, like you like movie scene walks in the music, know slows down the winds blowing that way Yeah And he says every good time is like a good for her, you know, but he's doing his drink So then he says at one point he like grabs her and does like a little like like a little dance That's like a little salsa, know to step with her for a moment and then like I guess that was the line too far and this other guy got like really mad about like him like

speaker-2: ⁓ She's backlit. Someone didn't take kindly. Was he also trying to salsa with her and he got jealous?

speaker-0: I think my client just had the juice that night and everyone was like, no, I want the V-Wave.

speaker-2: Yeah. Okay. right. This does feel like the plot of a movie. Then what happened?

speaker-1: Dang. Yeah. She's the waitress.

speaker-0: So then, I mean...

speaker-1: Is this a weeknight? I feel like this is a weeknight. ⁓

speaker-0: you know, you afterward get some drinks in, who knows, right?

speaker-2: Yeah, this does feel like weeknight shenanigans.

speaker-1: You

speaker-0: But my client basically says this guy gets really aggressive with him, it's threatening him, all these other things. And then basically comes at him, he's about to attack him, so my client gets the bottle and hits him with it to defend himself. But he says the guy was coming for him before he made those actions. And that's the only reason he grabbed the bottle and used it.

speaker-2: Okay.

speaker-1: Okay, so they're out of place. It's the waitress. The wind is blowing through her hair gently. Client sees her, does a salsa two step. Turns out she's the waitress for everyone. A third party who believes that she's the waitress for him gets upset, comes at client, maybe doesn't technically touch client yet. Client thinks he's gonna get something, pulls the bottle, hits third party.

speaker-0: Basically. Yes. Exactly, I hear it, I'm listening to him, and you know what? I'm like, I believe you. And if I believe you, a jury's gonna believe you. Let's do this.

speaker-1: Okay, and we're rolling.

speaker-2: Okay, let's do it.

speaker-1: every public defender's last.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: Do you have to file a notice of self-defense? Is this like an affirmative defense where you have to put the state on notice or do you just roll I just roll with Okay. Okay. Cool. So then what's your next move? What kind of discovery do you get?

speaker-0: it no notice of something. Yeah, so because I got this in this this prostor, I was like, all so I had the police report. And then for a while, I basically had nothing. I think I eventually get a 911 call. But there's like, I emailed the prosecutor like, hey, there's surveillance footage. Basically don't get a respond for. response for a long period of time. I'm like, oh, is there at least body camera like catching how he looks afterwards? And this is like my first one. So, know, I've been doing I've been doing this since August 2017. So when I had this case, it was before basically now like basically 90 % of officers, 95 % of body cams back then it was like 10, 20%. So there's no body cam either. So I had nothing. Yeah, basically.

speaker-1: Wow.

speaker-2: You just have, it's just basically he said he-

speaker-0: He said, said. then there's like, maybe I have like three photos of like face with like a wound and like a little bit of blood, not a little bit, but like blood trickling to the side. So I got that of the alleged victim.

speaker-1: OK. That difference is so interesting to me that most of us who are younger attorneys only have practiced in a world with body camera. But most attorneys practiced a ton of time where there was no body camera, or it wasn't expected. Which, I mean, in this case, I don't know how much that'll change. But generally, that would be just a completely different style of practice. ⁓ OK, but so no body camera here, photos, police report.

speaker-0: Yeah, mean, yeah, photos, police support. I will say, even in a simpler, quote unquote, case like this, like if you have body camera, you have like a witness statement from the states by may and complaining witness.

speaker-2: It's something to impeach on. You kind of are like free flowing. You have what the prosecuting witness or whatever your jurisdiction calls it in hopefully a witness statement in the police report and that's it. You don't have how they looked, how they were acting, maybe a little side comment they said, maybe pick something up. It's just so much more information when you have body cam.

speaker-1: Exactly. Especially in a case where both parties were probably drunk. That's something that a lot of times doesn't make the police report. And then you see the alleged victim on body camera and you're like, you're drunk. Yeah.

speaker-0: Exactly. Show me some slurring words so I can show it to the jury. Let's actualize this for everybody. And then the other thought is like, when you have, it's secondhand when the officer is writing their police report. So I like never really cross someone on what an officer wrote they said. It's like, can like kind of cross the officer, but it's not as strong.

speaker-2: Airways.

speaker-1: Good

speaker-2: Yeah. Was there an affidavit? ⁓ Did he write an affidavit or anything? Yeah. So it's just really not that much. It's hard to, you know, undermine their credibility without that. What is it? So when you meet your client, how does he feel? How's he doing?

speaker-0: So the background is he's a green card holder, right? So I mean, he's kind of thinking, ⁓ he's like worried about like, what would any kind of deal do for his immigration status? And then he's kind of saying like, OK, yeah, I hit him with the bottle. But like, the guy was coming at me. shouldn't. Why am I in trouble, more or less? Those are kind of his thoughts.

speaker-2: Okay. Okay.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-2: And then did you advise him on kind of what like a guilty finding or a plea would, how that would impact his immigration status?

speaker-0: Yeah, so we're blessed. You know, we have some immigration lawyers. Well, you Maryland's a statewide system So we have like about I think now we have around two like immigration attorneys that know that we call criminal gation, right? And those things so there's like a little worksheet that they have and then you can like call and set up an appointment To like get more details if you can't read the worksheet or if you forget the last CLE training you did

speaker-1: Right. Exactly.

speaker-0: Exactly. I was like, yeah, don't remember the CLE, so let me just like set up that meeting. I had that meeting and it was kind of like, based on my conversation, I was like, you know what? This seems like I got to try this case. I don't really want to like jeopardize your status in any way.

speaker-1: Yeah. And was there going to be some sort of offer that could have been safer for client or was it going to be, I guess the term of ours, moral turpitude? Was any offer still going to be morally turpitudinous?

speaker-0: Yeah, I think so I think for this case the concern wasn't moral torpitude was like whether it should be considered like an aggravated felony and because Maryland only has two levels of assault like right like with this type of assault be the kind of like assault that would meet that and it's like ⁓ maybe even unclear how like the federal fourth circuit would interpret it We're like, ⁓ it's like, you know eyes are glazing over really getting deep into the weeds, but because there's uncertainty I was like

speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, the immigration courts, do interpret state law sometimes differently than the states interpret. So you got to be careful with that. OK, so you're feeling like we got to try this. You got to try this. Yes.

speaker-0: You know, I think I like never really got an offer from the state until the day of, but I tried to proactively make an offer. I think I even argued against myself. think my first email, I was like, all right, he'll do like 24 hours of community service and like eight hours anger management.

speaker-1: Okay, what did you offer?

speaker-0: to put it on something called the STET docket. That's like our inactive docket. It can just be like STET general. It's enacted for three years and then you're allowed to get it expunged. Or it could be something we call a STET with conditions, where if you complete the conditions in a certain period of time, the case is dismissed. So it's like diversion program, it's kind of like almost a free-rolling in which the attorneys can maybe fashion something that they agree with. it doesn't have to be a person like a specific. There are some specific diversion programs, but this is a little...

speaker-2: Kind of like a diversion.

speaker-0: Flex more flex.

speaker-1: That's cool. Yeah, we don't, have diversion, but we don't have that. Like if you came up with the DIY creative sentence, they would be like, what? But that's, they'd be like.

speaker-2: No. ⁓ So then what? I think I know the answer to this, but what was their answer to your ⁓ offer? Literally.

speaker-0: he didn't respond the prosecutor didn't respond to that email ⁓ just like did it respond so then like maybe then like the Thursday was set I like emailed again like how about this how about this 24 hours community service

speaker-2: Ghosty.

speaker-1: Laughter

speaker-2: just basically like screaming into the void like okay let's do this i'm hearing a no let's try again

speaker-1: It boxes like Stanford Fray.

speaker-0: Well, you know, I'm always down to try cases. Well, at this point, I had a lot of bench trials and like, you know, you want the jury trial experience. That's why they gave me these cases, but like, you don't want to do that at the expense of the client. And with the immigration issues, I was like, all right, this isn't something you should. Even if you look at the light most favorable to the state, this isn't something you should do, but like, should you like lose a green card over this? Like can something be worked out at this person? I think there's something that can be worked out short of like, you know, criminal convictions. So I was trying, I was trying to do that. And it wasn't, so I was like, all right, what about this? You know, he'll go to like, instead of eight hours community service, I mean, instead of like, you know, an eight hour anger management course, or just, no, I don't think I said the hour time. said, what about he'll do eight AA meetings on top of community service? That was like mine. Cause you know, this happened at a bar, maybe alcohol.

speaker-2: Yes, that is clean.

speaker-0: involved. Yeah, just maybe. No, I mean, maybe not.

speaker-1: Mmm.

speaker-2: name. Just, just guessing.

speaker-1: Yeah, Sanford Sentence is like 30 hours of yoga.

speaker-0: Yeah!

speaker-2: It just keeps getting, you're just trying new things over and over again with no response. So did they ever respond to you or did you just see that?

speaker-0: I mean that, with the offers, it was to see the Met Rial.

speaker-2: Just see them at trial. Okay, so then do you do any of your own investigation before you get to try?

speaker-0: Yes, I did. So we didn't have this was the one get in trouble. We did not have an office investigator at the office at the time. And even now, to be honest, our office investigator probably wouldn't do this kind of case. Maybe it was like summertime. We got investigative interns, but like at the low level, you they got to we got murders and like armed robbers.

speaker-2: Yeah, they have.

speaker-1: You bigger fish to fry.

speaker-0: You know, but we have like investigator interns that we could like not invest like panel like people that you could get approved you get like three hours approved for Like this type of misdemeanor. Maybe you can get like three hours approved, you know But I was like, I don't need that. I'll go to the restaurant bar myself So, know, I went there. Yeah, I did And let me see. Okay, you know wasn't that fruitful when I got there. There wasn't any There was no surveillance footage of the event. It had been months, you know

speaker-1: Go Stanford,

speaker-2: Yeah. At that point, how long after the event was it that you...

speaker-0: I mean, I don't know exactly, but it was like more than three months, maybe like six ish, because like he had a case.

speaker-2: There's no way it still exists after four, three, six...

speaker-0: Because it was in district court first and then got moved, right? Then he asked for the jury drop right? Then he came to me. by then, definitely months had passed. So there was nothing.

speaker-2: And that's kind of the issue with these long processes where these clients go through a couple of attorneys first before they get to the main attorney who's gonna work is that you kind of lose the opportunity on these time-sensitive discovery issues. But I digress. So you go there, there's no not fruitful.

speaker-1: No, absolutely.

speaker-0: Not fruitful. I mean, you know, I get my chips and salsa, you know, I got, got a chicken quesadilla. It was really good. was like, yeah, this Did you see- You know, I, I, I don't know. I don't think so. I didn't have a photo. Okay. Okay. But you know, I think so.

speaker-1: How was it? The waitress?

speaker-2: You would know if you saw it.

speaker-1: Yeah, sounds like those who see her know they have seen her.

speaker-0: That's true. I didn't have any of those moments, you It wasn't working that day.

speaker-2: Okay.

speaker-1: Okay, so she wasn't working. And you got chips, you got salsa, you did not get surveillance.

speaker-0: surveillance. like, I don't know, sometimes it's like when you do, that's the one thing a good thing about investigators, they can do it better. Cause like, I don't know how to like ask questions about like something that happened months ago that was like an arrest without sounding myself like a cop. Like I'm trying to have you dark and I'm like, no, no, no, I'm really not. I'm trying to get information. And it's just like,

speaker-2: You're like, where were you the night?

speaker-0: And like I speak Spanish, but you know, I've always been working on my Spanish and you my Spanish is better today than it was then too. So I'm also like, you know, trying to like speak and that is maybe it's like the language barrier as well. So like I'm sounding like a cop or a narc and I'm like using broken Spanish. Okay. Yeah, exactly. My shirt says FBI, you know.

speaker-1: Yeah, and your shirt says FBI.

speaker-2: So then that doesn't really turn up anything. Did you do anything else before trial?

speaker-0: course, I got the story once, but I think I prepped my client twice with, all right, this is how we're do direct. This is obviously true, but because it's a self-defense case, you gotta let the jury know, how did you feel? And did you feel threatened or you were in a dangerous situation and that you were physically in jeopardy when he was coming towards you, threatening you? Which, I don't know, sounds dumb, but sometimes people say, yeah, he got really mad and approached me. But you have to express those things because that's like... the self-defense instruction, those are the elements you have to meet.

speaker-2: Yeah. And so you're, you're, you're prepping your truck, your client to testify because you don't think that you're going to get the instruction otherwise.

speaker-0: Exactly, because it's like, I mean, you have a witness list, but at this point, it's like, if I don't have the waitress, when I went there, I didn't really talk to anyone who could tell me anything about the event. The only way I get self-defense is through my client's testimony.

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-1: And can you talk about that more? What do you have to establish in Maryland to get the instruction? And then what is the instruction?

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna like now try to filibuster and try to go to my Westlaw login so I can find the exact

speaker-1: You don't have to say it exactly, like generally, as your client, like what are you, what basic elements are you trying to make sure get in there? Like imminency or like reasonable fear or like.

speaker-0: Yeah, stuff like that. I mean, basically you have to believe that you're in jeopardy, you or others, because there's defensive others as well, right? Which is actually a separate one. Or even property is like in physical jeopardy of someone else, that you didn't start the situation of physical jeopardy, or if you did, you didn't elevate it to the necessary, well, I guess this isn't the case, lethal force, but that's not applicable per se in this case. And then that a reasonable person would have believed this level of fear, like the force necessary was needed to match what you felt. or what you like harm that you perceived. More or less, without pulling up my Westlaw.

speaker-2: And because it's an affirmative defense, you have to put that evidence on or you have to, that evidence has to be elicited by you that your client didn't start it and that he was in reasonable.

speaker-0: Let me not mess up cases. We're not in front of a court, but I guess I would have to put on. I think there's a case where the state put on someone's statement, like an interview statement, not in my case. But in the statement, there were elements of self-defense. So without the client testifying, the judge didn't give the self-defense instruction, and the court, the appellate court, kind of reversed it, saying, that's stuff was put into evidence of self-defense. So doesn't necessarily have to be me putting it on, is what I would say. In this case, yes.

speaker-2: Yes, you had to. Okay, so then now we're getting into trial.

speaker-0: Basically, yeah, I'm trying to see if I yeah. think we just at this point. We just get in the trial

speaker-2: How's your client feeling before trial?

speaker-0: He's like cool but nervous. Like he had never been arrested before, never been through a criminal case before. No record. He did like one or two nights before he bonded out. So he's nervous and he understands because I consulted with immigration, with our immigration attorney. He knows that this has potential serious impacts on his life. So there's definitely nerves.

speaker-2: So he has no record.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: And then it's funny, you usually say, ⁓ I have a lot of experience, right? But then this client is like, okay, how many jury trials have you done? Have you done a jury trial before? And I'm like, I have started a jury trial before, of course.

speaker-2: Yeah, I have done half, half.

speaker-1: you

speaker-0: How many? I've done some.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-2: I was just like, don't ask me that. Let's just go. So then, since this is your half, you've only done half, how are you feeling going into this jury trial?

speaker-0: Oh, I forgot to mention, so we do have something called CA mentors, right? And they're more experienced felony attorneys in the office. They're assigned a couple of attorneys to mentor for these jury trials if something's gonna happen. So I met with him, this is what I'm thinking, and I'm gonna go over this. And I was like, you know, even those judge led here in Maryland, let's go over the fraudulent practice just one more time, just to get me more comfortable. So I did that a couple times with him, but he was kind of just like. ⁓ but you've had like, you know, what'd he's like, I mean, at this point, you probably had a hundred bench trials. And I was like, yeah. But this is a little different, you know? So that's how I was feeling.

speaker-2: Okay, so you were just getting help preparing and trying to get all your ducks in a row.

speaker-1: And is he going to sit with you or is it just you and client and that's it?

speaker-0: So every CA mentor is different. So some of them would sit with you. He was more like, you don't need me to sit with you. You're... yeah. I'll be... Yeah, yeah. He'll be like, I'll be in the courtroom. I'll be in the back, you know? I'll like text you or something. you got... Yeah. And later in the story, I think even a funnier tidbit about this, my CA mentor for this case. So it's good.

speaker-1: He was like... That's a savage when older attorneys

speaker-2: Like, you got this. All right, another foreshadow.

speaker-1: All right, so.

speaker-0: So I had a couple of other cases that I go to the courtroom with the prosecutor who has like is ten and I came to that courtroom last so by the time I was there he had like two cases left me and someone else. And then it was me. So well but at that point I come up to him again and I'm like hey hey you know you didn't respond to my emails but like all right what if like 12 AA sessions you know what mean? It was funny well so even the

speaker-2: And then it was.

speaker-1: You know.

speaker-2: And he was like, no.

speaker-0: So my CA de mentor, was, he is of Latin descent and has like, you know, he's a natural, he's a fluent Spanish speaker. So even, so when the, you know, States, you know, complaining witness came in, he like chatted him up. You know, something, I'm a defense attorney, you have to talk to me to chat him up. And he was like, and he kind of was like, ⁓ I'm not trying to get this guy in like trouble, trouble. You know I mean? And he was like, I mean, if you're cool with this death, then I think it would have really helped with the prosecutor being cool with this like diversion, you type of thing. And he was like, yeah, I mean, blah, blah, blah. I mean, like I kind of talked him into it a little bit, or he's like, no, I kind of get the, I mean. I guess you come from certain communities, you understand immigration consequences, and he wasn't trying to do something that harsh, even though he was mad about what happened. So he was kind of there, and he's like, yeah, he's OK with it. So I was like, all right, maybe this will happen. the prosecutor was almost there, but then he forgot the facts of the case. read the police report again and said, no, he hit someone with a bottle. I need jail time, is what he said to me. OK.

speaker-2: So here we go. So you're at the CA day and your case is going and you're ready to pick a jury. So what kind of jurors are you looking for?

speaker-0: You know, like I said, this is now my second time. I'm going to be honest with you. I had no real thoughts. I guess I just wanted people, I guess the victim and my client were both Latino, but I was like, hmm, okay. I guess like no clear biases against like, you know, Spanish speakers or like, you know,

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-2: You're looking for people who aren't biased against Spanish speakers, you're not. This is judge led, so you're not really doing it. Was there anything that happened in Voir Deer that's notable? We don't have to go through the whole.

speaker-0: I'm going be doing it myself. ⁓ Not at all. And because of the type of case, I had four strikes, the state had four strikes. So it was like, you know what mean? It was over in a snap.

speaker-2: Do you like your jury at the end?

speaker-0: I think so. It was definitely more women than men. And I was trying to think like, man, statistically, I feel like men are more likely to get into a bar fight and understand. But I was like, whatever. I think it was a good jury.

speaker-2: Yeah, I guess nothing you can do about it then. All right, we have a jury. All right, so you've been here before. You're here again. We're getting into opening. Is client cool at this time or is he getting more nervous?

speaker-1: Okay. All right.

speaker-0: Yes. The one thing I forgot to say is, know, so because it's a jury trial, we have like a trial clothes closet, but client was like, I mean client was probably like literally like same age as me, similar body type. So when I was going through them, I like didn't find any clothes that I liked the morning of. So I literally, I had like my backup suit, like in my office and I was like, Hey, just put this on. It looked better on him than it ever did on me.

speaker-2: Perfect, and you fit? Thanks. So he's looking fly. He's feeling good.

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly.

speaker-1: everyone.

speaker-2: So let's talk about opening then. ⁓ State opens.

speaker-0: I mean, it was just like, this was out of nowhere, know, he was drunk and he just hits him with a bottle. You get cut, think about a bottle, how much it hurts. It's like one thing it'd be like a fist fight, but like he brought weapons into this. Like that's kind of how he's like talking about it.

speaker-1: Okay. Okay. I don't think you can say that. All right. How was your opening?

speaker-0: Yeah So, you know, I'm like, I'm trying to do this by the book. So, ⁓ there's a thing, because my client looks really nice. The one thing I think it's important that like the, you know, stakes complaining witness, he was like a beefy guy and had a neck tattoo.

speaker-2: Wait, there's... Okay. ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah, the victim. ⁓ My theme was very clear. used the alliteration and I was like my client and you know got got involved with a drunk dangerous and deadly individual and had no choice but to defend himself. Mm-hmm. You know, that's classic

speaker-1: Triple D, not to be confused with diners, drive-ins, and dives.

speaker-2: That is very classic opening 101. Drunk, deadly, dangerous. Let's go. It's a staple because it works, you True. So who's the state's first witness?

speaker-1: Clean. Perfect.

speaker-0: And I think true. So this is where the case got interesting. Basically, I thought I was prepared for like an officer, right? And then maybe this is not even a great child story because like there's no officer. It's just the alleged victim.

speaker-2: Okay. That's it. That's the only witness they call. Oh, so you all you do all this prep. Your CA mentor says you should write some of down. You go, no, I'm good. He goes, no, you should write some of it down. So you write it all down and it turns out you didn't need to because there's only one. OK, so let's talk about the witnesses direct. Nectats direct.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah, mean, neck tat. Yeah, so neck tat. mean, it's more of a story. He says he's there, you he's having a good time. You know, he does say, and he kind of says like, it's out of nowhere. He didn't say anything to the guy. He wasn't doing the guy. But then the guy at one point was just looking at him angry and then hits him with the bottle, which, you know, hey, maybe that's his truth. But I think part of it is also like, well, why would he do that? Like, you're just trying to say that you're just having a random time at a bar and a guy just gets angry and it's like you had no interactions with him at that night or anything. So that's like one of the notes I had. But that was.

speaker-1: Yeah, that omission already creates a credibility issue.

speaker-0: That was like kind of my thought. I was like, okay, okay, maybe there's something I can work with here. No mention of the waitress, which come on, we, no mention.

speaker-1: Everyone knows the waitress.

speaker-0: Come on, come on, So then it was my turn to do a direct, I mean, a cross. And then, you know, it's not like a Perry Mason moment, but I did get the point where I was like, you know, this is a bar you were drinking, right? And then he said something like, this actually happened late in the night. So he had been there maybe like four or five hours. And I was like, how many drinks did you have? And he said, one, one beer, maybe two. And I was like, in four, was like, for four hours? Yeah. And I was like, okay. So I was like, all right, I got one. And you know, I that down. Get your notes.

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-0: So like I'm already, so like I'm just gonna just call him a liar straight up. That's like my thinking like when I get to closing, I'm just gonna be calling him a liar. It's unbelievable. And I think that was like maybe the highlight. Oh, I do the, I do the, know, how tall are you? How much do you weigh? You know, that type of stuff to try to like. Yeah, cause he's a stalky guy. was like, yeah, he's a I don't think my client could have won a fist fight with him, you know?

speaker-2: to show the state. Right. That's why you...

speaker-0: Exactly. had he that's the only way he could protect himself from this, you know, bodybuilder.

speaker-2: Exactly. So that's like the main point of your cross was that you kind of caught him in a lie or just an unbelievable story. So now we're trying to undermine his credibility. And so then what state rests. All right. Were you okay. And you were surprised by.

speaker-0: Yeah. I was, I like really thought the officer, like, I mean, I have a police report. There's no, you know, there's no body cam because there's no body cam at the time. But I was, I was, I was prepared for like the officer who wrote the report. And then I had random miscellaneous officer just like, you know, cause like more than one officer usually shows up. Right. And obviously maybe they're probably bringing five squad cars for this. Right. And like, who cares? That was just been repetitive, but I was expecting one or two officers plus them. The state, I guess the state tried to get like in the 911 call, but it was like from someone at the store happened afterwards. I kept that out.

speaker-2: Right.

speaker-0: Like it's hearsay doesn't, I mean, there's no one to cross it's hearsay and confrontation clause. It was how I kept up the 911 call.

speaker-2: So who called 911? It wasn't the PW or it wasn't.

speaker-0: I like, I don't even... I wasn't even complaining about this. can't remember, maybe like a store employee who's like, ⁓ this event happened.

speaker-2: How were they, who were they gonna try to get that in?

speaker-0: Just like as a certified business record and I'm like, okay, so yeah, it's authenticated But you still have to hear say in confrontation issues confrontation clause You have a right to run any witnesses against you and this is like basically a witness giving testimony that you're not allowed to cross-examine Right. So that was like simple

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-2: You know what, you know what that makes me think? It makes me think that the prosecutor thought he had an easy win. So he just like didn't do a lot of work.

speaker-0: Well, I'm not gonna disparage anyone. I'll say, as you said before, we don't have to file anything for self-defense. So maybe he wasn't thinking as a defense attorney, but how can he explain this? There's no evidence that the alleged complainant, when it's hit him first or anything like that, this is an open and shut case. I think that was probably the prosecutor's perspective.

speaker-1: And sometimes they're in a situation where they're not going to offer anything and they also barely know the case and they kind of also just sit down and do a trial. So sometimes it's as unplanned as that.

speaker-2: And that's just who they had that day. ⁓ All right, so then they rest. Any mid-trial motions?

speaker-0: Yeah, so I do buy, you know, motion for judgment of acquittal and I get it on the disorderly conduct and you know, cause I was kind of like,

speaker-2: Okay. So what's the reasoning behind that?

speaker-0: I mean, I basically like the commotion of the bottle thing, like disturb the people who had to watch it, more or less like a public, disordered type of disorderly context.

speaker-1: Okay, but yeah, they can't get the elements.

speaker-0: I guess they're like, this guy talked about how like he was like, you know, hurt from an assault, but didn't really say he was disturbed. And there was no, like, there's no civilians that testified. I don't know. Maybe the judge was just liking me that day. It was like, all right. And it's like, you know, 60 day offense. So who cares? And I got MJ away on that.

speaker-2: All right, okay, so now we're one down, one to go.

speaker-0: Exactly.

speaker-1: I get that it's intuitive that a disorderly would be part of an assault, but at least for us it sounds like you too. You couldn't quit the disorderly because they didn't get public disturbance even though we're still arguing about whether or someone...

speaker-0: It's so funny. Got hit by a bottle.

speaker-2: Right. Or that the public was disturbed. mean, who knows? Maybe they just kind of along their business. that could be true. We don't know.

speaker-1: Maybe the public was neutral or into it.

speaker-0: Maybe it was bottle smashing night at the pub, right? Who knows? Yeah, so defense case and it's like, all right, client, you know, you do the, don't have to testify outside the presence of the jury. have the right. You have your constitutional right. I want to go and testify. All right. I call client to the stand.

speaker-2: Yeah. All right, let's go. So let's talk about your direct.

speaker-0: I mean, I think my director was good. I wanted to be honest. So my client, you know, said he had three to four beers, right? He talked about it and he mentioned the like, he like mentioned the waitress and it was kind of funny because even in Spanish, like I understood it, but you could like, you could see his like, you could see the smile, but on his face, his whole face brightened when he talked about the vertigo shit. like, he even did like, he did like he did like a hand troll, like yeah, I had to dance it. And then he's like, he's he's like doing a hand like spin, like while testifying.

speaker-2: like motioning the soul.

speaker-0: He was definitely still proud of these moments.

speaker-2: It's phenomenal.

speaker-1: He's like, maybe someone in this jury knows what they will respect me.

speaker-0: So I thought it was good, he's honest about how much he drank and you can see the emotion of the waitress. It's like, all right, this is believable, how much he's big upping this moment.

speaker-1: Yeah. His love is palpable.

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, then he testified about the guy who's like angry and like was threatening him and like doing all this stuff He's like, ⁓ my name and the whole time he's like looking very very well put together in a suit, you know, Yeah in my suit and I think it came off like I was like, wow, know, you prep you prep clients a lot And no matter how many times you prep them or what you say, you know, you have no idea how they're gonna testify.

speaker-2: It's definitely a leap of faith. Especially during Cross. But yeah, you're just like, okay, we'll see how this is going to go. What did he say the threats were?

speaker-0: Man, this is like honestly, I was trying to think, I can't even remember specifically, but like cursing, definitely like some curse words. Like there were definitely like, not even curse words in Spanish, but like curse phrases in Spanish, know what mean? Like Spanish idioms of threats, I guess, that he like mentioned. And if the guy was like coming towards him like, hey, I'm you, know, I'm about to, you know, swinging his fist and like stuff. So I think he saying, ⁓ that's my girl, why don't you touch her? Like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna show you, can't touch her, stuff like that.

speaker-2: Stuff like that, okay. Cool, so how did he do ⁓ on cross?

speaker-0: Okay, on cross. Honestly, the cross was great. I don't know. Even though I kind of opened on it, right? I opened on self-defense a bit. I guess the prosecutor wasn't like, I don't know, maybe he thought just like, didn't thought my client wasn't believable. So he's like, he's like, he was like trying to get in the, I don't know, he's like, oh, he threatened you? Yes. Well, you didn't call the police? No. You know I mean? like that was like those kinds of like questions where like you couldn't, like, yeah, I mean, what am I supposed to say to that?

speaker-2: Yeah, whatever.

speaker-0: So don't think, my client was not hurt at all on cross was my perception of.

speaker-2: you didn't think it was that effective. At this point, how do you feel about your case?

speaker-0: Yeah, I don't think so at all. I'm feeling really good, but I also think it's gonna come down. I was like, all right, we gotta like wrap it up with a Nebo. Like, you know, we gotta get the- Yeah.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-2: Okay, so you're not like celebrating just quite

speaker-0: I'm not celebrating, but you know, between not calling the officers, right? And then, know, neck tap versus suit. You know, I got a hammer. Because even though I think it's a big thing, him talking about the alcohol, have to explain why it's important that he why him undermining how much or undercounting how much he's drinking relates to everything about the case. So I have to connect those things during my closing. So that's what I'm thinking about.

speaker-2: Okay, so yeah, let's talk about clothes then. So state clothes is first, What's their clothes like?

speaker-0: I mean, I think, well, no, not think. do like, you know, they do the whole, this is simple. They do a PowerPoint, but it's only like, you know, three slides, because it's only one element of one charge left.

speaker-2: Right, right, had to cancel their disorderly conduct one or two.

speaker-0: I didn't mention that. They choose the photo. So the PowerPoint is like photo, elements, photo, right? That's basically what the PowerPoint is. And he's like, yeah, come on, this is open and shut. We don't hit people with bottles. It was that kind of thing.

speaker-1: I'm

speaker-2: Yeah. Okay. And then how about yours?

speaker-0: Honestly, I was a torturer. This is my first clothing to a jury. Yeah, yeah, I had opened before. had picked this.

speaker-2: Alright, yes. You've farther than you've ever gotten at this part. So you're ready!

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: I was you know, humbly I like think I did an amazing job like I was hitting the know, the But no actually one of my colleagues they still mention it that like because like the waitress thing I literally like while in front of the jury I was like imagine if good nights imagine, know, you do a little by live I did a salsa dance in front of the jury I Did the whole night like being my client and then seeing this guy coming at me

speaker-2: Oh, you do a little salsa dance? Demonstrators are

speaker-1: You like went and got the four person and did a

speaker-0: Yeah, you know, but. It's like, know, you got an objection. The steps were OK, but when I did, there's like objection, right? No.

speaker-1: Dip.

speaker-2: That was a bridge too far.

speaker-0: No, but like I was I was like harping that and then I was like, you know Why is it important because he knows he's lying, right? He has to omit things because if he had it if he was being honest You're at a bar you're drinking. Of course, you had more than one or two beers in four hours, right? But why do you have to that because you're lying about everything. That's why you're not mentioning the waitress, right? That's not why you're mentioning being mad and you have to see he he has a guilty conscience You know, he has a guilty conscience. And then I said we're talking about reasonable doubt. Where's the police officer? Where the other store employees? If this was such a vicious attack with a bottle that shocked the senses, that came out of nowhere, you'd have the entire restaurant here. But they are. Because they know my client acted in self-defense. You know what mean? Just doing that type of stuff. And I thought it was powerful.

speaker-1: Nice.

speaker-2: I'm convinced. Amazing. then obviously that was effective, but did the state do their

speaker-1: Yeah, that's great.

speaker-0: Did a rebuttal. was that like? Honestly, well, I don't mean me, but my perception was it was like panicky. Like I felt like I did a really good job and the state felt like they had to like, wow, ⁓ wait, I'm about to lose and had to try to like...

speaker-2: This is like the first time that they're even considering losing. Like they've kind of phoned it in a little bit. They don't have any other witnesses. They, you know, just have like a three slide PowerPoint. Now they're like, uh-oh. It's like the 11th hour, really. But so yeah, tell us a little bit this.

speaker-0: Yeah, so I mean it was like longer than his closing but not like strategically just like okay I'm gonna it felt to me like I'm gonna try to throw everything and the kitchen sink to try to like get this case back Yeah, and then he had one line that was maybe like what's it called objectionable? I didn't like oh, yeah, if this is really self-defense, you know, he was arrested. He went to jail the victim wasn't And I was like thinking in my head like I mean my client is here so he was arrested but like can you really say that in the closing whatever?

speaker-1: Yeah, I'm also trying to like cite why you can't say that, but you just can't.

speaker-0: Yeah, like I don't have a case, but I'm like, I don't think that's proper. I'm not gonna object because like I don't really like objecting it over to the closings, but I don't know what's happening here. I don't like this.

speaker-2: Bye.

speaker-1: Well, what it really comes down to is he's shifting the burden. Yes. He's saying because that person was arrested, he has to prove that he's innocent. Is the vibe behind.

speaker-0: I think so. think so. Yeah, that would be the way to... But like you said, first jury trial, I was not prepared to make that argument, but it definitely still to this day, it's like, I could have objected to that. I just, I should have said something.

speaker-2: Sometimes in trial I'll be like, wait, was that objectionable? And then by the time that I've thought it through, the moment's over. And I'm like, okay.

speaker-1: I know it's, it's a fine line because your body's just like objection and then judges like grounds. like, wait,

speaker-2: ⁓ Okay, he's panicking, he's spiraling, he's lost the plot, he's making accusations, he's shifting the burden. And then the jury has it. how does your client

speaker-0: I think at this point he's feeling good. He's feeling confident.

speaker-2: Yeah, he's watched you do your magic up there and you're feeling good.

speaker-0: Yeah, I'm feeling good, you know? You know, was like, all right, but my dance practice, my salsa lessons paid off and...

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-2: What about your CA? Is your CA mentor feeling

speaker-0: He's feeling good and then here's the best part. He says Stanford by the way, I got a dead disappointment this afternoon So I'm gonna head out This is the teaser so you know jury questions ⁓ yeah, just gotta handle those on my own if they come up, right?

speaker-2: You gotta do it on your own, right. So were there any jury questions?

speaker-1: Clean those.

speaker-0: Yeah, he's like I got a teeth cleaning

speaker-1: It's hard to get a dentist appointment in his defense. It's really hard to get a dentist appointment.

speaker-2: It's really hard to get into the dentist. if you need to go right away. He made that appointment like seven months prior. So there's gonna be

speaker-1: Lee. He probably made that appointment when Stanford was in high school.

speaker-2: That's right. So then were there jury questions?

speaker-0: There were... ⁓ yes! This is where I lost confidence. I think the jury question was like, what's the like, amount of jail- what's the like, maximum jail time for second degree assault?

speaker-2: you

speaker-1: It's surprising to that we don't see that question more. I guess judges are good about saying that you can't ask that, but I'm surprised Joris don't at least try more often and just ask what the penalty is.

speaker-2: Right. Because you know they're wondering. Okay, so then you were like, uh-oh, they want to punish you.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: So then I'm spiraling. So now I'm like, ⁓ wait, I'm losing. What? How did that happen?

speaker-2: Yeah. You call the dentist office like, yeah, I need to talk to you. Put him on.

speaker-0: See ya, version!

speaker-2: ⁓ okay. So then any more questions after that? What did the judge say? Like, no, obviously we can't tell you.

speaker-0: Can't tell you that. Yeah.

speaker-2: and don't even think about it. Then you get the verdict, the call that you have a verdict. So then when you get the call that you have a verdict, what goes through your mind?

speaker-0: basically.

speaker-1: was the jury out.

speaker-0: two to three hours, maybe two, maybe like two, yeah. Okay, okay. All right.

speaker-1: Two hours, two hours, two hours. Okay, so yeah, what's going through your mind?

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-0: I mean, I was spiraling after the question. was just like, what's about to happen? I was like, no. But I'm scared, but I'm also like, man, I definitely had some good eye contact with least a couple of people. Maybe a hung. Maybe a hung. Maybe I'm going to a hung jury. I think I got one or two at least, even with the bad question. I'm thinking, I don't think I won. I'm like, all right, let's hope I get a hung. That's what I'm thinking in my head. And I'm by myself. I'm walking by myself.

speaker-2: Yeah, you're like, I saw Sud. ⁓

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-2: Right, right. How's your client doing when you get the verdict?

speaker-0: Someone says my face is very easy to read, so I was like trying to say positive things, but I think my face was giving like not positive. And he was just like, Frazier, what's going on? ⁓ the verdict is here. Okay, let's go back to the courtroom. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-2: Alright, so yeah, walk us through that moment when you get the verdict.

speaker-0: So we're going in, verdict, know, they hand the sheet to the judge, and then, I don't do this anymore, but then when they walked out, there was eye contact, and there was like smiles and stuff towards me, and I was like, okay, this is a good sign.

speaker-2: You knew.

speaker-1: All we're back on. We're back. This is a roller coaster.

speaker-0: It's like you know what it's over so back it's over we're so bad. Yeah

speaker-2: So wait, why don't you do that anymore?

speaker-0: I don't want to read the jury. I don't want to know now. I don't look now. It's too much.

speaker-2: Yeah, you don't want to look.

speaker-1: Yeah, I don't look at you.

speaker-2: Yeah, it is too much. ⁓ So then, okay, you've gotten some smiles, some nods, so now you're back. You're back in action. We're so back. Let's go through like the reading of the verdict.

speaker-0: We're so dead. Yeah, I mean, you know, the judge gets the paper, it back, four person, blah, blah. You know, you have a verdict, yes, all right, read the verdict on the charge of assault on first degree, blah, blah, blah. Assault on second degree, I apologize. We find the defendant not guilty. know? Yeah. I do a little fist pump, like, bare through the client. You know, it was like a bare hug. Yeah, yeah. And then things were, you know, we were great. It was like great.

speaker-2: You hit him with a bottle. Yeah.

speaker-1: You

speaker-0: It was funny to believe him leaving the courtroom. I was like, dang, thank you to him, right? And he was like, no, no, no, thank you. Thank you.

speaker-2: Thank you for letting me be your first jury.

speaker-0: Yeah!

speaker-1: What?

speaker-2: He's like, wait, what? Yeah, don't worry. Did you stay in contact with them at all? you know, like, you know, was there an epilogue?

speaker-0: There's two postscripts. We stayed close. is, so he was, you know, green card at the time. He is a US citizen, you know, now. Okay. was able to do that because he says years ago. And then a much shorter postscript was that like the next day, I have a sweet tooth. ⁓ no, actually it might've been that day actually. I like went to the grocery store to, all right. So like I'll eat healthy, have my smoothies, I'll work out. But then like every, like you might find me a random Thursday and I'll eat like a whole like, like Oreo box.

speaker-2: That's relatable.

speaker-0: So I'm like, I'm getting my like trial, I'm still in the Afroglow, my trial victory Oreos, and I run into one of the jurors at the grocery store. Yeah, and they recognize me at first. No way. Yeah, yeah.

speaker-1: Can you imagine if you're that juror because you know like we see a bunch of jurors, but they see like one defense attorney

speaker-2: Right. And you're kind of a celebrity in their eyes, right? they just watched you salsa on the- Yeah. What did they say?

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, they came again.

speaker-1: You were dancing with the stars.

speaker-0: They were just like, oh man, you just did such a great job. Was your client happy? Blah, blah, blah, stuff like that.

speaker-2: Did you ask about like why they found your client not guilty or did they say anything?

speaker-0: No, I mean I was just like in the moment. It's like ⁓ god. This is great hugging I was also like it was like cool, but like I said I was in my moment I was also thinking like I don't wanna like I can communicate now right?

speaker-1: Yeah, no talking with jurors after is very counterintuitive.

speaker-0: Exactly, because like the whole time you're not posted.

speaker-2: And you guys don't do that. You guys don't have an opportunity to do that right after the verdict.

speaker-0: We do, we do, we do. Yes, you can. Did you? Not in this case. So I think one, I was like inexperienced. Now I realize some judges are like, if you want to ask, they ask the jury, hey, do you guys want to talk to them? And if the jury says yes, cool. But the jury says no, don't chat with them. So I think in this case, just, yeah, just, of us chatted with the jury.

speaker-2: Yeah. Cool. Yay. Well, congrats on your first. Well, I mean, you've had many, but little Stanford making his way. And then cut to now you're doing big things. So I guess this is a good time to transition into, ⁓ you know, what's going on with you now and your campaign. Tell us a little bit about some of the things you're running on.

speaker-1: Yeah, on the first.

speaker-0: Yeah, I know.

speaker-1: Awesome.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, so I'm running for the Maryland House of Delegates. It's what we call our state house. And the background is I can do this job and stay a public defender because it's a part-time legislature, which means it meets from basically January to mid-April every year. And then for the other eight months of the year, people will have other jobs.

speaker-1: Wow.

speaker-2: Okay, so you can still be fighting the good fight. Fighting the good fight year round, I guess, but in court and then in the house.

speaker-1: month fight and a four month fight and we switch. I'm gonna find a four month fight.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: Let's talk about some of the stuff you're, you know, some ideas you have to make your district a better place.

speaker-0: Yeah, so one of the big things is, know, I want to enhance public safety. You know, I think the Oregon Cahoots program, the Dallas Star program, it's like when you have like non- most 911 calls are non-violent calls to service, right? But we're sending like police officers basically to almost everything. So sometimes you get the call for, hey, there's a guy outside shirtless, kind of passed out, it's weird. Instead of sending officers there, you can actually send maybe a nurse and a social worker, right? And then we can better utilize our officer resources for truly violent calls of service. So that's one thing.

speaker-2: Right, and you know, those situations tend not to escalate when there's an office.

speaker-0: Exactly, exactly. That's one big thing.

speaker-2: Is there support for those types of programs in Maryland?

speaker-0: think there's definitely support. There's been conversations over the years, but we're trying to actualize it to make it happen.

speaker-2: I think really what it comes down to is just like saving resources and just making sure that everyone's getting the exact care that they need, whether it's a police officer who goes into a dangerous situation or a social worker or firefighter who just helps someone kind of change directions real quick.

speaker-1: Exactly.

speaker-0: Yeah, I mean when I talk to people like we can like allocate our resources better and make everyone safer and happier. So that's yeah

speaker-2: Yeah, that's great. What else are you running on?

speaker-1: Awesome.

speaker-0: Well, one of the big things we're talking about is people who are really concerned about cost of living, rising housing costs, rising utility bills. And there's some ways, I talk to people about how part of what's happening is that there's an increased energy demand, right? And how do we balance that increased energy demand? We need new sources of electricity, new power plants, but also across America, it's like an average 15 to 19 years to connect a new transmission line to the grid. So even if you're building new power, we're talking about literally a kid. You know, baby, Trey will be in college by the time that new transmission line connecting that new power gets on the grid. And, know, even this podcast, right, we got all of us got computers open. We got laptops checking our phones like we're all using more electricity, right. And then like electric vehicles. So that's like increasing the increasing car bills. And then another thing is, you know, some people were skeptical about how increasing housing supply can lower prices. But I think we're seeing now from like New Rochelle, New York, as well as Austin, Texas. even Auckland, internationally in New Zealand. I saw a little webinar about them where they've dramatically increased their housing supply and what they've seen is they've been able to have rents actually go down while other areas have gone down. Yes, using the law of supply and demand can be a way to ease pressure on housing. So those are some of the things that I want to do.

speaker-2: You're you're saying more housing.

speaker-1: Absolutely.

speaker-2: And I think that's good because I do think it comes back to public defense, right? All of these things you're talking about benefit our clients, right? It benefits our clients to not have as much contact with police, but still get help. It benefits our clients to have a lower electricity bill. It benefits our clients to have housing. I mean, all of that because we do service poor people and people who are, you know, kind of on the fringe. And I think that, you know, all of that's good. think that's, that's really noble that you're helping our clients in on the front end and the back So thank you, yeah.

speaker-0: That's I mean, thank you. appreciate it. And yeah, that's the goal. Definitely. So the primary is June 23rd. And basically I'm just like contacting voters, putting my messaging out there. I ordered some yard signs, you know, I was knocking doors yesterday, you know, you know, I'll I'll say this pitch, right? You know,

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely.

speaker-2: So what's next for your campaign? You're doing it.

speaker-0: It's really funny, like when run for office, you do gotta ask people for money, right? And one big thing I say, there's a hundred people listening to this podcast and they all gave a $50, that'd be $5,000. And that'd be enough to send mail to about 9,000 voters in my district, right? And yeah, so hopefully they'll put maybe my blue link in the episode description. If you want to help a public defender get into the state house, I think you maybe should donate to the campaign. All right.

speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to help Stanford, you want to help, you know, our clients and his district, basically, live better and have better services, donate to his campaign. We'll put a link in the bio on, you know, where you get this podcast.

speaker-0: And I'm hearing everyone over $1,000 gets their preferred tray nickname to be used for a week. That's what I heard.

speaker-2: Right

speaker-1: So you should have led with that, absolutely.

speaker-2: You should have loved that. All right. OK, well, anything else you want to say before we sign off?

speaker-0: I just, you know, thanks for having me and, you know, thank you for the opportunity. And it was like really good going down memory lane actually talking about my first jury drop.

speaker-2: Thanks for taking us on that journey with you. We all started somewhere. Thank you so much for your not guilty. It's really good to talk to you again, Stanford.

speaker-1: Yeah, thank you. We'll have you back for a third.

speaker-0: Hey, the trilogy. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty. Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A &G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix. And guess what? We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.