speaker-0: you speaker-1: you speaker-0: We were just friends and I said, well, you told the police you were acquaintances and she's like, well, what's the difference? I just kind of poking a little bit. Most of my trial prep was about preparing transcripts for impeachment. Little things like she told the officers, you know, clients showed up in lingerie, but it was a, it was a black dress. speaker-1: the bear. Is she saying your client was in lingerie beating her in the driveway? speaker-0: She called it lingerie. So I asked her I was like you said she showed up in lingerie. She's like no I didn't It's like alright. Well, let's play a video. So a few like little pokes and she was just over me speaker-1: This started unraveling. speaker-2: Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system. Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system. speaker-1: These stories are about the not guilty public defenders get on a daily basis. speaker-2: And welcome back everybody to another Not Guilty. It's your boy Davey D for defense here bringing you the freshest Not Guilties across these United States. And of course, they can't be fresh without our awesome, the most freshest co-host of the Not Guilty, Lauren here today. What's up, Lauren? How you doing? speaker-1: What's up guys? I feel like my name should have been accompanied with like brr brr brr. I'm back. speaker-2: That's right, that's right. We're here recording live from the A &G studios or our lunchtime break here at the public defender's office, whichever you want to call it. Okay, we get, if you have a nice lunch break, so that's good. We work hard, we deserve it. ⁓ Lauren, how you doing there today? What's going on? speaker-1: Doing good, doing good, getting excited for the holidays. speaker-2: Okay, all right. Me too, it's gonna be great. Courts are slowing down. Everyone's kicking cases in the January now. speaker-1: I know it's crazy to be writing 2026 on stuff. speaker-2: Okay, but here another not guilty world. We need to do defense attorneys and public defenders across the United States. People want to know how does the not guilty happen? How does it really go down? What is it that someone get off on a technicality and it's like no, we just point out that everyone's full of shit. That's what we do as public defenders and we're really good at it. And today's guest is one of the best in our office. We have Annalise Nuxall from the Los Angeles County Public Defender's Office here to share a recent not guilty she got here at the Compton branch. So I'm really excited to have her as a guest. I work with her every day. She's so awesome to be with. She has a great spirit, a great laugh, great smile. Annalise, welcome to the show. Thank you for being on it today. speaker-0: Hi David, thank you for having me. I feel very honored. speaker-1: CPT team is here today. speaker-2: So Annalise, you got this not guilty a couple weeks ago. I said, hey, you want to be on the show? And you're like, what show? Who are you? And I was like, I'm David Moore from the not guilty. She's like, ⁓ that's you? I'm like, yeah, that's me. That was me. speaker-1: That's embarrassing. speaker-0: Yeah, I told them I'm more of an audiobook person, but... speaker-2: ⁓ I just wasn't getting the ⁓ know, like I was around Annalise, she just treats me like anybody else. ⁓ speaker-1: Not like the celebrity you are. speaker-2: Right, right, you know ⁓ speaker-0: I would have been more reverent, I'm sorry. speaker-1: I can't wait that you're going to be super chill about your, you know, celebrity experience here, but hopefully with a really good story. speaker-0: I so. I thought this was an interesting case. speaker-1: All right, let's hear it. speaker-2: Yeah. All right, Annalise, introduce your client and tell us what he was charged with. speaker-0: My client is a she and she was charged with carjacking and kidnapping alongside a co-defendant who was charged with just the carjacking. speaker-1: already have a question. Is this kidnapping for the purpose of carjacking or carjacking and kidnapping separately? Because that's a big difference. speaker-0: Right, exactly. Carjacking and kidnapping separately. So it's not a life case. Okay. But she was looking at 10 years, eight months. Okay. speaker-1: So for those who are listening, my question was because if it's kidnapping for the purpose of committing another crime, that's automatically life. So, yeah. speaker-2: If it's just kidnapping for the purpose of just kidnapping for the fun of it. It's couple years. All right. So, Annalise, what did your client allegedly do? What did the police claim your client did? speaker-1: Is this a cup- speaker-0: So the police report reads that my client and her co-defendant and a third party drive up to, we'll get there, but an acquaintance's house. And my client gets out of the car, co-defendant gets into the driver's seat and co-defendant blocks the complaining witness's car in kind of like at a perpendicular. So complaining witness is blocked in. My client goes up to the window and says, get the fuck out of the car. This is George's car. This isn't your car. Get the fuck out of the car. You bitch, et cetera. speaker-2: So that's okay. So like, so your client, what's your, do we have a name for your client? You can go with a pseudo name if you want. speaker-0: Yeah, we'll call her Diane. speaker-2: Okay, so Diane and co-defendant, what's co-defendant's name? speaker-0: Let's go and dance. speaker-1: Diane and Dan are in a car together and they go to acquaintance? speaker-2: complaining witnesses house, the alleged victim's house. Is it a house or apartment building? Okay, she's in the driveway backing out of her car, right? Or trying to back out, right? speaker-0: It's a how. She pulls into her driveway a minute before. speaker-2: Okay, so they pull up behind her. They stop their car perpendicular on the driveway so she couldn't leave or drive backwards if she wanted to. then Dan, the co-defendant Dan, gets out of the car and approaches her, right? speaker-0: Codefending gets into the driver's seat. Yeah, so my client drives in, gets out of the car, and then Dan gets into the driver's seat. speaker-2: of the car they drove in. speaker-1: while your client gets out to harass the complaining witness in her driveway. speaker-0: Yes, got it. speaker-2: And what happens when your client approaches the alleged victim in the driveway? speaker-0: They start, she starts screaming, give me the car. The police report reads that she was pulling her hair and hitting her. ⁓ and this was caught partially on ring. Yes. speaker-1: The complainant was still in the car while your client is pulling her hair. speaker-0: Yes, the door is open or cracked open. There is ring video. speaker-2: And this is on the Ring video. speaker-1: But your client knows this person and says, me the car. mean, it's a very specific way to start an argument with someone you know. Okay, you're to tell us more about that later. speaker-0: Yes. I'm going to tell you more about that. None of it even comes out really until trial. And even then, there's still some questions about whose car this is. speaker-1: Okay, so in the police report, does it acknowledge that your client and the complaining witness know each other? speaker-0: that they're acquaintances. speaker-1: Okay, and so the police report just says your client basically attacks her. She's yelling at her, she's grabbing her hair, trying to pull her out of the car and saying, give me the car. speaker-2: What happens next? speaker-0: Yes. Complaining witnesses, kids were in the car. They go into the house. One kid is 17 and then one kid is six. So they go into the house and then the police report reads that the complaining witness is forced into the passenger seat. My client gets into the driver's seat and moves the car away. And then my client proceeds to drive away with complaining witness in the car. speaker-1: ⁓ dear. speaker-2: Interesting. speaker-1: And that's the end of the police report. speaker-0: Then, complaining witnesses dropped off while she said she was pushed out of the car about a mile down the road. speaker-1: Like just on the side of the road or at a gas station, just... Okay. speaker-0: Side of the roof. speaker-2: that tumbles out of the car and rolls in the street. speaker-0: She said she's pushed out. So client, client apparently pulls the car over. Okay. they stop. And then my client drives away. speaker-1: Okay, not a moving vehicle. I'm playing like a 245, but okay. speaker-0: Yeah, and then complaining witness walks home. Yeah. And that's the police report. speaker-1: And then she calls the police, the complaining witness. speaker-0: She denies it, but we know someone called 911 and we never got a 911 call, which I played up at trial. speaker-2: Then how is your, so there's a 911 call, but there's no, we don't know what the contents of that call are, but the police are called. They take a report and then when's your client and co-defendant arrested? speaker-0: So complaining witness tells the police, know where they went. They're at her house. They're at Diane's house. Here's their address. speaker-1: Feels like more than acquaintances. I don't know the addresses of my acquaintances, but okay. speaker-0: Exactly, Lauren. This is, this is the relationship here is very interesting. So police go to Diane's house. The car is there with Diane and Dan. Diane comes out with the keys says here are the keys to the car and they both get arrested. speaker-1: Okay, no other statements made by your client? speaker-0: Later under Miranda. Yeah. speaker-2: I am comes out of the car, what comes out her apartment with the keys and gives us to the cops. And was the complaining witness with the cops at the time? Okay. And then that's when they're arrested. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Continue. speaker-0: No. Then she has a Mirandized interview where she says, yeah, I took the fucking car. That's my ex-girlfriend. So she tells them that that's the relationship that they had broken up. speaker-1: Do it. she say why she felt entitled to take the car? speaker-0: She said that that was not Complaining Witness's car, that she was, that it was Mr. George's car. Mr. George is a- Mr. George is this unknown entity that is lending people cars. Apparently he owns a car lot. It's a very Compton case. speaker-1: not Dan. Who was the car registered to? Not Mr. George or Dan or Diane or the complaining witness. Did that person report their vehicle stolen? Okay, so this is the exact clusterfuck you would expect. Yeah. speaker-0: another person. Yes. That's what I'm reading and I'm like, holy crap, this case. speaker-2: Wait, was codefendant also, was Dan also arrested? speaker-0: Yes, at her house. speaker-2: He was speaker-1: Did he also give a statement? Smart. Shout out to Dan! Way to play it, Dan. speaker-0: No. speaker-2: Yeah. And we don't even know if Dan's really involved in it. He could have just been driving there to drop her off and then takes off without knowing anybody about a kidnap or a car jack. speaker-1: I suppose it's possible. Is Dan Diane's boyfriend now? speaker-0: Yes, there was a romantic relationship going on between them for sure. I did get jockeys. Yes. Yes. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-2: So all right, so you got this case, Annalise. Were you there at the beginning of the case, or did you take it over from somebody? speaker-0: I did not arraign her, but I met her at her first setting date for her prelim. speaker-2: Okay, so tell us what that was like when you went to go meet Diane. speaker-0: How is she? Diane is devastated that Dan is in custody. That was. speaker-1: is not herself. speaker-0: Just Dan. She said Dan did nothing. She can't believe he's in here. She's crying. She's inconsolable. speaker-2: Dan's a good guy. Dan's a good guy that got caught up with the wrong woman, and now he's in jail. We've heard this story thousands of times. speaker-0: Yes, so client is just beside herself about Dan and I'm just trying to focus on what is happening. I'm trying to get out who Mr. George is. I'm trying to get out who the complaining witness is to her because at this point it's, it's unclear and client just keeps going back to when is, when is Dan getting out? And I'm like, Dan's looking at a lot of time and you are too. So. Let's start talking about how we're going to fight this or reach a disposition. speaker-2: Right, so then where do you go from there? speaker-0: I think that there might be a mental health diversion potentially. So I get the ball rolling with that. So we put it over a couple of weeks. The next time I come to court, my client tells me, fuck your bullshit mental health diversion. I'm not waiving any more time. I want Dan to get out. I want my trial. speaker-1: I mean, I don't love her reasoning, but I do love when our clients are like, let's just ride or die, let's go. speaker-0: I loved it. was like, one moment, let me document this in my head. yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Start answering your questions at that point though. When she said, I'm not waving anytime, fuck your mental health, let's do a trial. And you, I assumingly said, great, let's talk about a possible defense. speaker-0: Exactly. That's where we went from there. I'm like, all right, I need to get some info here. So it comes out, she tells me that her and the complaining witness had had a romantic relationship in the past. She had kicked her out of the house, her and her kids. And then my client heard that her ex was bad mouthing her around the community. And she didn't like that. And speaker-1: Okay? speaker-0: She had talked with this guy, George, who said, complaining witness has been talking shit about you. speaker-1: This is the Mr. George character? ⁓ The car lot that he's letting people borrow cars. Okay. speaker-0: Yes, Mr. George. Yes. So clients really upset. Diane is like, Mr. George is telling me that you're talking shit about me. So I'm going to go confront you and I'm going to give your car back to Mr. George. speaker-1: Wait, did Mr. George ask her to get the car back? Did she say Mr. George said that he'd already told this woman to bring his car back? No, Diane was just on a mission of vengeance for Mr. George because she was mad that her ex was talking shit. speaker-0: Yes, got it. Yes. And Dan, she says, has absolutely no part in it. He was just backing around the car. He was speaker-1: Dan was just trying to leave. speaker-0: Yes. And the complaining witness does identify both Diane and Dan as the people who are there, which comes into play later. ⁓ The complaining witness identifies both Diane and Dan as being there, as Dan being the driver that blocks her in and Diane as the one, which she ends up recanting as to Dan. speaker-1: we say that last part again? speaker-2: So this is kind of like a, not really disputing the facts. She does drive up with Dan, she does get out of the car, she does confront her, and she does take the car. speaker-0: Yes, but she says it was done with complaining witnesses consent that they were going to go sort it out with Mr. George together. speaker-2: And that's so there she say she willingly scooted over into the passenger seat to allow her into the driver's seat. speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: ⁓ What about the ring video that shows her grabbing her by the hair and stuff? That doesn't sound very willing. speaker-0: You can't see the hair pulling from the ring because of the angle. You can see her at the driver's side window and you can hear what she's saying. But because of the angle, you can't see the any physical altercation. Get the fuck out of the car. This is Mr. George's car, you bitch. Get the fuck out of the car. Give me the car. speaker-1: What do you hear her saying? speaker-0: just on repeat and then you hear the complaining witness shouting no. speaker-1: Okay. All right. I don't love it, but I don't hate it. mean, there's some good things in there, but I think it's a little bit... If Mr. George wasn't asking for the vehicle back, I think that's still a potential problem in your case. speaker-0: Right. And Mr. George cannot be contacted. speaker-1: Mr. George is not coming to court. speaker-0: He's mythical. Yes, he is not coming to court. speaker-1: Even if he's real, he's not coming to court. speaker-2: Hey. speaker-0: We end up doing the preliminary hearing. speaker-2: Okay, tell us about that. speaker-0: Complaining witness doesn't show it is a 15 minute pre-lib. They have the one officer Testifies to what they all Yeah, and what can I cross on like are you sure? speaker-1: the hearsay. And then your client's rubber stamp held the answer. And you're not waving any time, you're going to trial. speaker-0: Yes. No, at that point, I think we waived two days. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: The offer post prelim is five year state prison as to both. speaker-1: So you know that you can't find Mr. George. I assume ⁓ co-counsel did not let you talk to Dan. speaker-0: I did not speak to Dan. speaker-1: Okay, did you try and get a statement from the complaining witness ex-girlfriend since she didn't come to the prelim? And did she agree to speak? speaker-0: I did. She agreed to speak and she mostly reiterated her story. speaker-1: from the police report. And her story is that your client violently attacked her. Did she talk about, did she acknowledge that the car wasn't hers, that it was Mr. George's? And, but, so when your investigator spoke to her, she said she had permission to have the car and your client attacked her. Okay. I mean, it's basically leaving you in the same position as before you started. speaker-0: Yes. Yes. Yes. It was, it was, it wasn't a great outcome with the investigation request. And then I tried to investigate the third person in the car. There was a person in the backseat of the car that Diane and Dan were driving. speaker-2: ⁓ speaker-1: Wait, the third person? And who was this person to them? A friend? And that person didn't want to give a statement? I love Compton cases. ⁓ speaker-0: No. speaker-2: So ⁓ then, are you trying to do before trial then to get ready? speaker-0: Well, I tried my client wanted an offer. Then she's like, if you can get me probation, I'll, I'll eat the strike. I have no other strikes. I just want probation. I'll take suspended time. My client had some like a couple other felonies in her past, but nothing. It's like drug stuff. Um, so I begged the prosecutor. He says, no, I'm like, the time. No. And then speaker-2: That's it. speaker-1: At this point, had Dan pled out? speaker-0: No, Dan has not pled. speaker-1: So now, so she went from pure concern over Dan, when you're first meeting, to now I'm here and fuck your mental health diversion, I'm not waiving any more time, to now fuck Dan, just give me a deal that gets me out on probation. speaker-0: Yes, she wanted out. speaker-1: I'm not mad at Diane for this. Okay. speaker-0: No, but, but we did have conversations. So at one point we were talking and she's like, I'm going to take the stand. And I'm like, ⁓ okay. ⁓ what are you going to say? And she's like, I'm going to tell them that Dan had nothing to do with it. And I was like, can you also say you had nothing to do with it? And we got, we got into it a few times. I, at one point she just keeps talking about Dan and we're, like 20 days from trial and there's no offer. speaker-1: Hahaha speaker-0: other than that five years. So we're talking about the case and she keeps talking about Dan and how she needs Dan to get out. And I was like, Dan, I don't care about Dan. He's got his own lawyer. I need to protect you. And in like a very teenager way, she's like, but I care about him. She's like crying. So we had our tips and I had to leave lockup. Then I came back. like, I'm very sorry. I know you care about dad. Let me send you a book. Let's try to ease the emotions here. speaker-1: So your client's story is that she was taking the car to bring back to Mr. George. speaker-0: with the complaining witnesses consent. They were going together, yes. speaker-1: Did your client admit to pushing the complaining witness out of the car? speaker-0: No, she said that she wanted to be let out of the car that she decided she didn't want to go to Mr. George's. So she pulled over and CW got out. speaker-1: And then, what is your client's explanation for the fact that she has the car at her house and not with Mr. George when the police come find her? speaker-0: That's an excellent question, Lauren. She wanted to just go home, shower, drop off Dan and the third person. speaker-1: before meeting up with Mr. George? Because I assume that the prosecutor at trial is gonna zero in on these facts to poke holes in your client's story, right? So how long was it between when the alleged carjacking occurred to when the police showed up at your client's residence where your client just had the car parked outside? speaker-0: Probably like 45, 50 minutes. It was fairly fast. speaker-1: So that's fast. So it is potentially believable that your client was dropping off other people and regrouping. speaker-0: or at least regrouping with them because they had driven back. So she didn't drop them, but yeah, she went to meet them. speaker-1: Okay, it's not like it was there for days without going back to Mr. George. Okay, Mr. George. Okay, so you've done all of your prep, right? speaker-0: No. Yes. It felt like I was ready. I felt like this was a credibility case. speaker-1: ⁓ huh. speaker-2: So you had a five year offer, you're saying it's a credibility case. Lauren, were you gonna ask a question? speaker-1: Yeah, the complaining witness. Does she have her rap sheet? speaker-0: very minimal, a couple petty things, but from- speaker-1: that you can really impeach her with. You can't impeach her with any testimony at the prelims, and she didn't testify. And when you sent an investigator to speak to her, she basically tells the exact same story she tells the police. So if it's a credibility call, you're not going to be able to talk about different statements that she's made. So I guess if you can't impeach her with any prior crimes of moral turpitude, what was your plan to make her less credible? speaker-0: No, no. speaker-1: Aside from the fact, I guess, that she wasn't completely forthcoming about her relationship with your client. speaker-0: felt like a huge part to me. But ⁓ she didn't have any injuries. They took photos of her face where they alleged some redness and of her arms. But there was no she's describing this beat down essentially, where she even says at one point, like I lost hair and there was nothing nothing to show that. So I think the physical evidence went toward that. and just the way she acted on the body-worn video, I didn't think that she would make a good witness for that. speaker-1: Okay. And she was saying that she was not the one who called the police. speaker-0: She said that on the stand, police were dispatched for a potential carjacking. speaker-1: goes to credibility too. mean, if you've suffered this violent attack, it feels like that might be a thing you'd report. speaker-0: one would think. speaker-2: I mean, the kids, you're right, the kids probably called the police, right? They ran inside the house, the 17 year old, maybe. All right, so we got a five year offer. It's not getting any better. We go in the trial. It's a credibility issue. And really it's a credibility issue over whether or not the complaining witness voluntarily scooted over into the passenger seat to let Diane into the car or did Diane force her to scoot over and Diane forcefully entered into the car and drive off. Kind of like the case right there, right? speaker-0: That's pretty much what it hinges on. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-2: ⁓ you got no evidence to sub corroborate your, your, your version, right? speaker-0: Not really. speaker-2: Not really. You have a ring video that shows that there was some yelling. There wasn't a friendly... There was sort of a verbal altercation, you could call it. ⁓ speaker-1: For the audio it has where she's telling her that this is Mr. George's car. I like that. speaker-2: Yeah. Maybe there's a legal issue on whether or not she has a right to take the property of somebody else that doesn't belong to that person. Did you do any research on that? Like on the possession or right? speaker-0: It's not a defense. It's a car jacket. speaker-2: Just a little CYA. Was that even necessary? Was that even necessary CYA research? don't know. Okay. Okay. And then the co-defendant, Dan, marched along to trial too, right? speaker-0: Yes, he will not take the five years. speaker-2: Okay, all right. And then who's a dance counsel? speaker-0: Alternate public defender. speaker-2: Okay, and how's APD been on this case? Good. speaker-0: fine. I was nervous because I felt like my client is the heavy here. Yeah. And speaker-2: Okay. speaker-1: it was a good feeling, ellie speaker-0: I was afraid that she would just get up and throw my client under the bus. That's probably what I would have done if I had Dan. So, and I had never done a co-defendant trial before. Yeah, would, would, just puts your mindset in a whole different position because I feel like now I'm, now I'm almost looking at two prosecutors. speaker-1: They're the worst. Yeah. Plus you have even less control. I trial's crazy because the best laid plans can just blow up in your face. But when you have co-counsel and there's a co-defendant, what's happening is even less out of your control. If there are things you don't want to talk about, nothing prevents them from getting up and bringing them out in front of a jury, even if they're not trying to blame your client. So yes, I think they're the worst. speaker-0: And I like tried to chat with her. I'm like, here's the thing. I don't think you want to throw my client under the bus. I'm just trying to, you know, remind her like, hey, like, look, maybe both of them didn't do it, you know. speaker-1: So did you have a conversation about working together or was it very sort of close to the chess that APD was playing it so that you didn't know what they were going to argue? speaker-0: I mean, we were friendly, but I don't think it was like books open, like, let me show you everything. She got an investigation into the third person in the car. She turned that over to me. The third person in the car did speak to her saying she'd come to court to support Dan, but not my client. So. speaker-2: Dude, dance the man. speaker-1: Dan's a man. I'm wondering about Dan's relationship with all these women and why your client was so concerned about Dan. have suspicions, but you know. speaker-2: Unless Dan is George. speaker-1: Dan is somebody to these women. Dan is somebody. speaker-0: Dan is somebody, yeah, he wouldn't take anything either. And his max was higher because he had a prior strike. speaker-1: that tracks with my theory of Dan. speaker-2: about how you're like, who's this Dan guy? What a big deal. And then you saw him for the first time enter to that courtroom. And then what was that like? You finally got it, right? You're like, ⁓ speaker-0: You know what? I didn't feel the same magic that my client felt. speaker-2: Okay. All right. Well, let's, let's talk about trial then. Okay. It sounds like, all right. So you don't know what you're doing. I mean, you know what you're doing, but you don't know what's going to happen on this case. Where are we going? What direction we're going to fight over two different, two facts. So then let's talk about the judge you get in front of. Did you like the poll you got when you were sent to? speaker-0: I papered first, one judge, and then I ended up in front of, I think, a great judge for this case. speaker-2: Okay, great. Good job. Good job. And when we paper someone over here at the Los Angeles County public defender's office, we're just saying this judge can't be fair, send us somewhere else and hopefully that judge is fair. hopefully it's not worse than- You only do it once. Okay. And so tell us about, was there any pre-trial motions? Motions of limiting 402s. speaker-1: to do it once. speaker-0: Only 402 of interest because everything was coming in was that on the day that the complaining witness was subpoenaed to court, she came in scrubs. And my clients whispering to me like, she doesn't work. She doesn't work. Like, why is she wearing those scrubs? So I make a 402 ordering the court or asking the court to order the prosecutor to have their witness show up in civilian clothes. speaker-1: ⁓ I like it! She was pretending to be a medical professional. speaker-0: i said- i was like, we trust these people inherently, like, this is crazy, and the judge is like, what authority do you have for this? and i'm like, i don't know, it's- it's prejudicial speaker-1: Yeah, I like it. Did it work? speaker-0: He said, we'll cross that bridge if we need to. And she rolled up in regular clothes. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-2: Now I feel like as a judge, I would deny that. It's like they can wear whatever they want. They can wear a fucking pirate outfit. I mean, like it doesn't matter. I mean, you could just cross examine them and be like, as a medical professional? No, I don't. speaker-1: You just like to make people believe you are? speaker-2: Like the bear scrubs? You're fucking fake and phony? That's just like your test- Just like your testimony. You want people to believe what is not, okay? speaker-0: But what if she said, yes, I am a medical professional? speaker-2: Great, where, and then you go down and you What's your groove? Yeah. mean, it would have to be licensed by a board, right? You could probably look them up real quick in some type of portal and yeah. right. But yeah, you have enough to worry about. I get it, I get it. So, okay. speaker-1: So this was your only 402. speaker-0: I mean, other than the standard 402s, know, exclude witnesses, there wasn't a lot. mean, there was the ring video, there was body worn video. At first, the prosecutor said she wasn't going to bring in any of my client's statements. She ended up then deciding to bring in them. She must have listened to the Miranda's interview over the weekend because we came in Monday. She's like, ⁓ I actually am. And I'm like, what are you going to speaker-2: So let's talk about jury selection then. On a case like this where you're not quite sure what direction the case is going to go in or what your defense is going to be. I mean, it's a straight credibility issue. So what's your goal for jury selection? speaker-0: I didn't want emotionally charged people. I guess I wanted people that maybe looked at this and were like, ⁓ okay, it's a fight. It's, you know, I didn't want anyone that would get like emotional over what happened. speaker-1: How are you selecting for that though? speaker-0: Trying to just kind of ask them about- a vibe. Honestly, based on where they were, the vibe they were giving, they did not care for me. They didn't like me. The jurors, they loved the judge. Totally laughing with the judge. They're all having the time of their life. I get up. speaker-1: Bye. speaker-2: The jurors. speaker-1: crickets. Really? speaker-0: I like make this, I have a hypothetical about sports and the Dodgers were in the playoffs when I was doing this and I asked them, I was like, who watched a Dodgers game last night? Like two people raised their hand out of 18. I was like, come on, we're in LA, only two people. And one guy's like, some of us don't like baseball, right? And I'm just like, I am so sorry. I did not think that that was controversial. I kept him. speaker-2: Hahaha! You were the first attorney to voir dire too, right? Were you the first one to go? I think it's hard as the first Lord of voir dire. You really got to crack through those people and sometimes it's hard. Blah, blah. speaker-0: Yeah. couple of people had been victims of carjacking and part of me kind of wanted to keep them because they were like, this stranger gone to a car, put a gun to my head. And these facts I thought were just so different, but, but I didn't keep them. witness credibility, how do you judge someone's credibility? And then a lot about beyond a reasonable doubt. It was, it was hard. I felt it was my first Compton trial. So it was a totally different batch of jurors than I was used to in a good way. So it was a challenging re-selection I thought. speaker-1: you speaker-2: And then did APD, the codefendants council go next? speaker-1: But speaker-0: She went next and pretty much piggybacked off me. speaker-2: Okay, okay, except they liked her, or him. speaker-0: I they liked her more. I felt it. was looking at them. Except she was likable. like, how dare you? speaker-2: I mean, strategy but likeable. Yeah. My joke was better. I had a better story. speaker-1: Yes! speaker-0: I was a little offended. I started off with my usual like, my name is Annalise Nuxall and I like to say I represent the people too, just one at a time that normally gets a laugh. Only person that laughed was a prosecutor. speaker-2: ⁓ yeah. speaker-1: That's worse than no laughs at all. speaker-0: I'm like that's awesome awesome you guys like it's like people think I'm charming, but okay speaker-1: It doesn't sound like you kicked a lot of people though, like you got a jury pretty quickly. speaker-0: After the judge's voir dire, it moved pretty quickly. My client and I got into it over one person. We're at the table just whispering back and forth furiously. She wanted me to kick a high school teacher who didn't want to be on a kidnapping case because of kids. speaker-1: But then I child victims. speaker-0: She's gonna be awesome! She's expecting something awful! speaker-1: Yeah, and it feels like a high school teacher would also sort of not be as fazed by the drama between the women. If you're working with teenagers all day long, this doesn't seem like it's out of the realm of the ordinary. Yeah. speaker-0: I thought so. Yes. So we kept her after though, like my client, like after that just crossed her arms was leading towards the alternate public defender. like, I get it. I get it. You're not happy. speaker-1: What did you end up with? What did your final jury box look like? speaker-0: ⁓ it was six men and six women and a complete three Latino jurors, three African-American jurors, three or two white jurors, and then a couple of racially ambiguous jurors. speaker-1: Okay. Okay. speaker-2: I like it. speaker-0: That sounds great. liked it. I liked it a lot. speaker-1: Alright. speaker-2: And so you're saying your client was sort of leaning over and trying to associate with code with co-counsel. speaker-0: She really liked co-counsel. Yeah, mean the jurors. speaker-1: and your client. Everybody likes to co-counsel better than you. speaker-0: It was rough. It was rough for my ego. It's okay. We got through it. ⁓ speaker-2: How is the prosecutor's body here? speaker-0: was good. It was a standard standard prosecutor vaudeer. speaker-2: Okay, let's talk about opening statements then. What was the prosecutors? speaker-0: The prosecutors, I think she over-promised. speaker-2: Okay, great. speaker-0: So she went through the facts, she showed the video, the ring video, which I expected, pointed out who all the characters were, but it was pretty standard. But I think she over-promised on what that witness was gonna testify to. She made it seem like, I think she made the complaining witness seem like she was gonna be a lot more sympathetic and she wasn't. speaker-2: And she played the video during her opening? speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: It's ballsy. speaker-2: Yeah. So then you have to, your, I feel like if that happens, if I was, if that happens in case Simon, an opening statement in the video is a damning video. Pretty much the whole case is being played right then and there. I feel like you have to really attack that video in your opening statement now. speaker-1: Did she play it with the audio? Or just? Yes. Okay. speaker-2: So then what'd you do in your opening statement and what was your strategy? Did it change at all because of the video? speaker-0: No, because my strategy was to lay out my entire case in my opening. know, sometimes we do the like, wait till you hear all the evidence, you know, keep an open mind. But in this one, I wanted to get ahead of whatever APD was going to say. mine was actually very detailed, you know, and my whole theme was like, look, solid falls apart. So I was like, you just saw a video, you know, it looked, it looked great. It looked great for them, but you, you, it's going to fall apart. And I laid out that a lot of the story aligned until, you know, really ultimately this was a consensual encounter. speaker-1: I like that. It's a very, I think that's solid theme. Like, I understand that you're gonna see these things and it's gonna look bad, but just trust me, they're not gonna be able to get there. speaker-0: right. speaker-2: What looks solid falls apart. Okay, I like that. speaker-1: IKEA furniture. speaker-2: I mean, is there a world where they just like, that's how your client and the complaining witness communicate with each other? They see each other, they yell for a second or two, and then they just calm down and then like, okay, agree, and they just drive off together. speaker-1: That's probably why they broke up. speaker-2: Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. Okay. Okay. So what was APD's opening statement? speaker-0: Talk sec. He really just focused on her client. Never even talked about my client. I didn't talk about hers. I just kind of left him alone. And she did the same for me. So she just kind of talked about how he was in a car, had no idea. The car was, he just was reparking the car, had no intent or even understanding that there was a carjacking or a kidnapping. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-2: Great. All right, so then off to the first witness for the people then, speaker-0: Yes, and this is actually really important. The week before the trial, complaining witness emails the prosecutor saying Dan had nothing to do with it. So she had recanted a week before. speaker-1: Well, I mean, these are three women now highly concerned about what's happening to Dan. Your client, the mysterious backseat passenger, and now the alleged victim herself. speaker-0: Yes. It's all about my client. Okay. So she takes the stand first. Says, yeah, that she parked her car and pretty much tells the story of my client coming up to her, telling her to get out of the car. But then there were some differences. She says like, She says things like, what, I moved into the passenger seat, or she said I jumped in the passenger seat. So I'm trying to get all these like small discrepancies because I'm just hoping to build from there. She says then, ⁓ this time that she gets out of the car. Instead of getting pushed out of the car. So she's starting to make some inconsistent statements from before nothing major, but enough. thought that, okay, I'm going to start to seize on these. inconsistencies. speaker-2: If she testified she got out of the car, that means she would have had to testify she got back in the car then at some point, right? speaker-0: got out of the car after client had driven her away. Instead of being pushed out of the car. And then she seemed like how I expected her on the stand. She seemed angry and very short with the prosecutor. Just like her, her statements were like, well, yeah, then that happened. Like filled with attitude. speaker-2: ⁓ okay, okay, so she got out of the car. speaker-1: So she's stuck by her story though that your client beat her up. Your client beat her up. And that your client drove away with her in the car against her will. When she said she got out of the car, did she say like, and then I escaped? speaker-0: Yes. Yeah, she was like, I was screaming at her, get me out of the car, let me out of the car. And then she pulled over and I got out of the car. And then she walks home. Now, but then when the cops get there, and this is on my cross, you know, I was like, well, you told the cops where to find her. You you knew where she was going because you agreed to go there. So I tried to get on that. You know, it's like who you weren't getting kidnapped. You do exactly where to find clients. speaker-2: Does she testify to the relationship with client? speaker-0: I asked her about it, she denies it. speaker-1: Did you ask her like how she knew your client then if she denies that it was her girlfriend? speaker-0: said we were just friends and I said well you told the police you were acquaintances and she's like well what's the difference like that was the tone yeah and I was like well you knew where she lived and so like so it was a very she I didn't think she came across well and then I just kind of started poking a little bit and speaker-1: Coke's a bear. speaker-0: Most of my trial prep was about preparing transcripts for impeachment. Little things like she told the officers, you know, clients showed up in lingerie, but it was a black dress. speaker-1: She's saying your client was in lingerie beating her in the driveway? speaker-0: She called it lingerie. I asked her, was like, you said she showed up in lingerie. She's like, no, I didn't. I was like, all right, well, let's play a video. And then everything just like felt really defensive. So a few like little pokes and she was just over me. speaker-1: This started unraveling. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And then I said, did you call 911? She's like, no. Mom's like, okay. She didn't. speaker-1: Do know who did? Did you ask her why she didn't call 911? No. Oh. Okay. speaker-0: Wait, did she just walk home? speaker-2: Did she just walk home? speaker-1: Just calmly walks fucking home. But your hair was yanked out of your head. speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. It felt bizarre and I was hoping that the jurors would kind of see that. And then I had her, the prosecutor had her circle injuries on an exhibit and I had her circle her so-called injuries on my exhibit because I thought my toner looked better, like the color. It looked less red. Yeah. So I had her circle injuries and I was kind of like, okay, so you circled something. I see. I'm going to publish it to the jury. ⁓ speaker-1: Any other really good moments with her? speaker-0: The biggest one I think was the lingerie moment. It was bizarre, but I think it really pissed her off. I sat down and my client's like, I don't think she likes you very much. speaker-1: And you said she can join your club. speaker-0: Literally none of you like me like and then she recanted as to Dan. She said he wasn't there I Couldn't see the person driving in the car speaker-2: There now. like it. speaker-1: Dan's already won. speaker-0: David, his attorney are just like, sit. I'm fighting for my life. Another actually big point on cross was on direct, she never said she was afraid, which you need force or fear for these. And I'm like, you were mad, you know? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, you were upset that client did this to you. Yeah. And, and you were afraid for the other people on the road because client was driving recklessly while punching you. Yeah. speaker-1: They're sitting back. speaker-0: and just kind of getting out like all this anger in hopes to avoid the fear portion. speaker-2: So then how did APDs cross go? speaker-0: APD asks like three questions. speaker-1: What did APD need to do? Yeah, exactly. client wasn't even here. So thanks. See you later. speaker-0: Hers was fast and... speaker-1: Yeah, bet. She wanted that to be over as quickly as possible before there could be another switch in the story. Yeah. speaker-2: So then who testified next for the people then? speaker-0: Clients, I'm sorry, CW's daughter who's 17, 18 now. speaker-2: She ran into the house, right? speaker-0: Yes. So she testified that she saw them screaming, she saw Diane yelling at her mom, and then saw them drive off together. I think that she was the most important witness for me because I got out through her that Diane had lived with them for a period of time. They did holidays together. ⁓ speaker-1: Much more than an acquaintance. speaker-0: And much more than a friend. I mean, we've gone now from acquaintance to friend to someone to... I mean, someone you'd spend family like a Christmas with. And I was like, have you ever seen your mom and Diane argue? Yes. They would scream at each other. Yes. speaker-1: Just a typical day. speaker-0: Exactly. ⁓ And then I was like, and they drove off together. And you didn't call the police. She's like, That's like, because they knew each other. speaker-2: . speaker-1: I it doesn't, I was gonna ask what she said they were screaming about, but I guess it doesn't matter because you have the video with her saying like, this isn't your car, this is Mr. George's car, so. speaker-0: Right. speaker-2: Also presumably the complaining witness could call her daughter or text her daughter, help, I'm in trouble, know, something like that. She never received a set type of communication from her mom regarding that. speaker-0: At one point in the body worn, complaining witness said she didn't have her phone on her. So I didn't want to get into any of that because I thought that that would be better for argument, know, just like leave it alone. Because if I start crossing on that, like now I could ruin that. speaker-1: and the DA wasn't smart enough to bring it in. speaker-0: The DA got the case, she got it handed off to her. I don't, well, I don't think she was prepared to, you know. speaker-1: Okay, so the daughter testified in a way that you felt like was favorable to your case. It's not looking good for the prosecutor. And again, Dan's already in the clear. What was the... speaker-0: Yes. Do you have an APDR drinking coffee with my client? I'm just sweating. Then they call an officer that arrested client, got the keys and found the car at her house. I didn't have a lot for him. Sure. And then the last officer, so it went pretty quick. ⁓ The last officer testified that he came to the scene, spoke to complaining witness. Eight, the prosecutor tried to use him to impeach the complaining witness about Dan. ⁓ it wasn't great. I got in some statements from the officer that the complaining witness had told him about getting pushed out of the car. And then this was, I felt like my big moment. I was like, you saw injuries? Yes. I was like, you took photos? Yes. And I bring him the exhibit that. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: complaining witness had already circled her injuries in red and I gave it to him and I gave him a blue pen I was like circle the injuries in this pen and he circled a different part of her arm I was trying not to like be giddy But I was like this is amazing. There is no injury. They can't even circle the same spot on the photo speaker-1: Nice. that she'd already done it too and he still circled ⁓ speaker-2: The photograph you gave him had red circles on it. And you couldn't figure out what the injuries were. speaker-0: Yes. Circle the different part. speaker-1: see the look of confusion on your face. You got it. That's what she said. speaker-2: Okay, just making sure. Maybe there's another exhibit with red in it, but this one didn't have the red on it. Okay. speaker-1: No, you got it. speaker-0: I took it from him. I was like, don't want him second guessing this. was like, thank you so much. speaker-1: questions please leave speaker-2: So you're just gonna save that for closing, speaker-0: Yes. speaker-2: You don't give them a chance to be like, Hey, what's up with these red circles here? You don't give them a to that up. That's the tough part. You know, when you're in trial in the moment, you highlight something more, but you give them a chance to clean it up or you just save it for closing. The best thing to do is save it for closing because they'll think, they'll think, and they'll come up with an answer and ruin it. speaker-0: Yeah, so. speaker-1: Was that what they're witness? speaker-0: Yeah, and they got in ⁓ my client's Miranda's interview about taking the car, but the good part is I also got in the part about how they were ex-girlfriends. So now we've had many iterations of who these women are to each other. And that was our last one. speaker-1: Your client's Miranda statements aren't, they're not fatal to your case, right? Because she's saying what you can hear in the video. She's saying, I didn't beat her. She was coming with me to go deal with this situation because the car didn't belong to her. So I mean, normally when your client's Miranda statement comes in, it's a very, it's very bad for your case. Normally it's never, I've at least Myself, I've never had a trial where that part went well, though, but in your case there wasn't anything really detrimental Especially since you were going with the idea where you weren't trying to dispute this didn't happen You weren't trying to say she didn't take the car So her statement coming in Couldn't really have hurt It could only have helped by corroborating some of the things that you were trying to get out and trial speaker-0: No. Right. I agree. It wasn't the worst. I still didn't want the admission of taking the car, but you're right. At the end of the day, it didn't. didn't. Yeah. speaker-2: So that's time for the defense case now. And before we move on, there any little side stories that happened during trial that we didn't, any little stories that we want to find out about that we just asked the right question or anything like that? speaker-0: Yes. I think client was warming up to me as the case. had gotten her some clothes, which that was a whole thing. don't know. Women shopping for your own clothes. Like, I don't know if anyone has like cried in a dressing room because like 18 pairs of jeans just like don't fit you. But having to like get her clothes was so difficult. like ask her her size and she's a larger woman and she's like, I don't know. And I was like, No, Dan, gotta, what clothes? speaker-1: I don't know that David understands how hard this is. Because I feel like men, they have the measurements, right? And if you have your measurements, you can just buy anything. But women's clothing is like, I'm ⁓ extra small in this brand and a medium in this brand. And it's just, nothing's cut the same. It's so difficult when you are personally there shopping for yourself. Shopping for another person who's being cagey about what size to get in the first place, I do not envy you. speaker-0: I was like plus size stretchy dress. So one really funny thing, my client came out and I had brought her a couple of options and she's like, me and the deputy think that that dress looks like a curtain. A curtain. speaker-2: The what? speaker-1: She moomooed her client. She moomooed her. speaker-0: turned around to the bailiff and I was like, are you kidding me? Really? You're weighing in on the outfits. And he says to my client, he's like, come on, you're doing me dirty here. was like, I felt like we were getting along. I think she saw that I was trying, but just, you know, she had her hair done every day and we had a lot of discussions. I've never had like this sort of like, she's like, should I do my hair curly or straight? and then she would like come in with braids and she's like the girls, the girls did them. there was some, and then she had her falsies eyelashes on that she put on with wet coffee grounds to get them to stick. just like a lot of. speaker-1: Do the highlighter makeup. Our clients, our female clients in custody come up with all kinds of way to do their hair and makeup. speaker-0: And she truly did, I mean, I felt bad for the clothes because again, was just going for, like you said, I moomooed my client. It was just like a lot of humanity in there where she just wanted to look presentable as a base feeling of humanity. I am a woman and yes, I am in this trial, but I still want to look. speaker-1: You Yeah. speaker-2: Alright, so speaker-1: I assume Dan's case was dismissed at 1118. speaker-2: Well there we go, that's what I asked. So the prosecution arrests, ⁓ motion to dismiss by you, Annalise? Denied. speaker-1: Denied. Thanks for coming. speaker-0: It was denied pretty quick. Yes. And then, APD makes their motion and the prosecutor submits. speaker-2: ⁓ gosh, even so now the prosecutor likes Dan. Just submit and apologize is too right? The process submitted and apologize. speaker-0: So my client is weeping. She's so happy. She's not sad at this point. She is happy. I'm like, are you OK? She's like, I'm so happy. And I'm like, good lord. OK. speaker-1: Yeah You're still on trial, Diane. Head back in the game. speaker-0: Yeah, I'm like, this is the part come over closing this afternoon. So it was nice. I got a ton more space. So Dan and APD leave the table. So the jurors are in the jury room. They leave they clean up their stuff. Diane and I move over. I was like next to the projector. I'm like super crunch during this whole trial. They leave. I screwed over, I spread out, jurors come back in and the judge is like, all right, we're now down to one. The jurors are like looking at me and my client. like, I don't know, don't look at me. speaker-1: Did you feel like that made it better or worse though? Or maybe no effect at all? Because on the one hand, seeing someone already get dismissed, I feel like could look good, right? Like the prosecutor has brought this case against both of these people and they've already lost one before it even goes to you. On the other hand, I feel like it could look, it could make your client look even more like the heavy, it could make her look more guilty that one was already let go and yours is still. speaker-2: There's a reason why your client's still here. There's reason why Dan will let go because he's innocent. Right. speaker-0: I had that fear about that, but I think it ultimately made it better because I didn't have to worry about what APD would say during her closing. I could argue as freely as I wanted. speaker-2: Or maybe Dan would get up and testify. Who knows what Dan would have said, right? speaker-0: Maybe. Dan had like a manslaughter charge back in the day, so I don't think they want to- speaker-1: Not surprised. speaker-2: Okay, so Dan's a passionate person, man's love. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-2: Okay, so time for the defense case, Annalise. Tell us about it. speaker-0: I rested. speaker-2: Alright speaker-0: I did, I talked with my client. was like, Hey, I know you wanted to testify for Dan, but now his case is done. So you don't need to test it. mean, like, is that something you still want to do? She's like, no, I'm good. speaker-1: Yeah, excellent. speaker-0: I didn't want her to testify. My client would have gotten feisty on the stand. speaker-1: And if the complaining witness didn't come off well, and you got all the things out that you did, what could your client have added? Yes, I took the car. I actually did beat her ass because she pissed me off. Like, what could she have said? speaker-0: Right. Yeah. So luckily Dan's life was spared. So my client did not have to tell the jury. did nothing. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-2: Perfect. So, so you rest time for closing arguments then. speaker-0: Rest, I asked them to add a lesser of vehicle theft. speaker-2: And that is the lesser of speaker-0: It's not a lesser included. I just asked them to add it and they said no. Cause I was like, I'm going to go in if they added, could just, I could argue theft, you know, client admitted to taking the car. It wasn't hers because at this point I'm, I'm, I'm just trying and my client was okay with it. I was just trying to figure out a way to avoid the other ones. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-2: Okay, so they said no, so it's time for closing arguments then how the process speaker-1: or nothing. speaker-0: It's all or nothing now. Yeah. ⁓ the prosecutor did fine. mean, it was a pretty standard prosecutor closing argument. You know, played the video PowerPoint with the seal. Yes. The, big old DA seal and then the, you know, the slide with your role as a juror and outside of it is like sympathy sentencing, you know, all that. she, you're not supposed to go there. speaker-1: people. speaker-2: box. Fuck about people speaker-1: Did she replay the video? speaker-0: Yes. ⁓ speaker-2: All right, so then how's your flow jar gonna go? speaker-0: ⁓ I think, well, I think it went well. So I was fired up at this point. You know, ⁓ I came in back hall with my, with my theme, you know, look solid falls apart, had a picture of a house with a broken foundation. I was thrilled with that slide. Who knows the jurors again, I don't think they were really amused with me one way or another, but that's fine. Went super hard on. speaker-1: You're to blow it down. You speaker-0: there was no fear, that she never testified to any fear, and that there was no force, because if there was force, you would have seen the injuries. And then I popped up that picture with the two separate places circled. like, I was expecting like, oohs and ahs, and like, like, you know, I was having my moment, but they, they all just like looked at it. The jurors, they, they saw it. Again, I don't know what I was, well, I was expecting more. speaker-2: How were you feeling in that moment? Did you think you had the upper hand in the trial or were you just, or maybe you're kind of, you're just fighting to the end, you're not really thinking about it. speaker-0: At this point, I'm just fighting to the end. speaker-1: because everyone's hated her. She has gotten no positive feedback, so she just has to keep trekking. speaker-2: What are the vibes from the jurors? What was that like during the closing argument? speaker-0: They were pretty stoic. I had an alternate nodding along with me, which I'm like, you're not relevant. I kept making eye contact with them for the affirmation. I'm like, what am I doing? You're not, you're not a part of this. I expected there was a couple of people I was really trying to go to because I thought they'd be a for person. They, so I put that up and I, I was like, you didn't hear anywhere in this testimony that there was fear. ⁓ and then I had a few slides with. You know, what's complaining when it's set on the stand and then like ways that that was disproven, like things like the 911 call. She didn't say she made it, but the officers said there was one and her daughter didn't make the 911 call. All these things I just had, there was about 15 things that didn't quite match up. So that was. speaker-1: Dan, did you talk about how she said he was there and then said he wasn't? Good, without being worried. speaker-0: Yes, I said exactly. was like, we know she implicated Dan at some point because he was sitting right there, you know, and now she says on the scene under oath, never saw him. I was like, we know that's not true. So I felt super passionate during my closing. I felt like it was, I felt like I gave a good closing. speaker-1: You got to pick apart their elements of the offenses. So there is no fear. There was no force because there's no injuries, which is actually not true, but it's great that you got away with arguing that. So you got to, you got to argue that no force, cause there's, there's no injuries. And then you got to argue the complaining witnesses credibility because of the lies she told about the 911 call because of the lies she told about Dan. And because of the lies she told about her relationship with your client. So you miss anything? speaker-0: Yes. And then just some semantic stuff where she said I was pushed out of the car at the end when client dropped her off or did she get out of the car on her own? Those things. speaker-1: It's one those things where I feel like the prosecutors say, they're going to nitpick about small change. That's actually a really big thing. If you just get out of a car that's pulled over versus being pushed out of a car, that's a significant change, a significant detail. I thought it was saying you're being attacked and kidnapped. just feels like a thing that would be consistent if you were telling the truth. speaker-0: It's. Right. And then I brought up the point about the lingerie just cause. Again, I was like, she said it out there. Now she denies it and you know. speaker-1: Because it was fun. I like it because it makes her look ridiculous too. speaker-0: Like, would you even fight me on that? You're right. It was kind of a, don't be ridiculous moment. So I was feeling super good. I sit down and my client, she's been like writing notes. You know, I give her a pencil and a notebook paper and she's like writing and I was like, this is it. She's gonna tell me, she's gonna tell me I did good. And she slides the paper over and it says, I'm so scared. speaker-1: Heh. No, Aww. Well, at least she didn't tell you that you did terribly. speaker-0: No, but I was like, oh no, I sat down. was like, you're rocking. Like that is how I felt. speaker-1: What I actually love about this though is that despite all evidence to the contrary throughout this entire trial, you sat down expecting your client to be like, great work. The entire way things had been going, you were just optimistic and thought she was going to be like, I feel good. Good job. speaker-0: I did. speaker-2: Did you respond then to the I'm scared? a what'd you do? speaker-0: I just looked at her and I said, know. I was like, I know. I tried to comfort her, you know, because again, the whole time she had just been asking me to promise me I won't get 10 years, promise me I won't get 10 years. And I'm like, I can't promise you that. The prosecutor gets up in her B and she's like, I don't know why the defense keeps talking about the lingerie. speaker-1: And that was it. That was their whole B argument. Don't pay attention to anything else the defense attorney just talked about. Let's talk about this stupid lingerie thing she's focused on. speaker-0: That was mostly the- I just gotta laugh. She also said like you don't need injuries for force, which is true speaker-1: Okay, yeah, I love the way she said that though it's true Reluctant admittance. Mm-hmm speaker-0: trip. speaker-2: Yeah. So what, long were the jurors out for then? speaker-0: ⁓ the first day was like maybe 45 minutes. We came back the next day about an hour in, ⁓ they had a question and it was, ⁓ one of the jurors believes that she, ⁓ the complaining witness testified that she was afraid. want read back. And now I'm like, I screwed up. She said it. She said it. I promised them there wasn't in the testimony. I'm texting APD. I'm like, did she ever say she was afraid? speaker-2: Okay. speaker-0: I am sweating because I felt like I made this big promise in my closing that you never heard her say it. And I am like, I'm sitting there and I just I'm sweating and the court reporter is preparing the transcript. speaker-2: By the Annalise, just so you know, like other day I was in a preliminary hearing and the witness said something about like, ⁓ there was this. And I said, yeah, objected, assumes facts are not in evidence. And the judge was like, no, no, there was testimony towards it. And I was like, ⁓ And then I looked at my notes and I even wrote the thing down in my notes. I just in that moment forgot that there was testimony about it. speaker-1: You know, speaker-0: It goes so fast. speaker-2: happens. speaker-0: Yeah. So I'm scared though, because I felt like my case, both these charges require force or fear. So I was like, that was one of my big promises. And the fact that they were listening, I was like, But I am panicking. And we're sitting there and the court reporter is searching in her transcript, fear. And she's like, fear's not coming up. And the prosecutor's like, search afraid. Search afraid. And I am just sitting there. and she never testified that she was in fear. It was awesome. So we got this read back where she had never said it. And now I'm like, okay, I'm feeling a little better now. speaker-2: Okay good, good. not out of the woods yet, but you survived. speaker-0: I talk with my client, we go back there and I'm like, how are you doing? And she's like, I don't know how you do this job. She's like, I didn't sleep last night. Did you sleep? like, how do I sleep? The jury's out. And she's just like, I don't know how you, how you and other public defenders do this day in and day out. She's like, I mean, you're invested. And I think at that point it clicked with her. how much had gone into this and how that I was emotional. I think she saw me at the table when this testimony was coming up, how I was getting scared, you know, that like I cared about her. And I think she saw that. ⁓ That was nice to have that. She told me that in that moment, she goes, my daughter's pregnant, which I knew. She goes, if I walk out of here, I told her you need to name. my grandbaby, Annalise, because I think it's a really pretty name. And she's like, yeah, but my daughter doesn't like the name, so. speaker-2: ⁓ Can't get away to this speaker-0: Like you don't need to name anyone. Like I, I get it. I'm just, I'm exhausted. So they come back question two right before lunch. speaker-2: But she's like, know what? My daughter really liked Alternate Public Defender's name. speaker-1: She's considering Danny is what she's considering. So after we back, much longer were they out? speaker-0: Another probably hour, hour and a half, they come back saying, we cannot come to a verdict on the carjacking. are eight, four. Can we convict on another charge? Which I'm like, yeah. speaker-1: They want the 10-8-5-1-U-S-S-S-S speaker-0: No one wanted to give it. ⁓ And the judge wrote back, no, you must decide on the charges given to you. speaker-2: So did they have a verdict on the kidnap then? They're hung on the car jack and then on the kidnap there's no verdict? Okay. speaker-0: Didn't say. Then they come back after lunch and it's probably three thirty. ⁓ Third question, we are deadlocked on count one. Five seven and we have a verdict on count two. speaker-1: the numbers moved a little. speaker-0: They moved, so we go up there. I talk to my client, you know, she's like, what does this mean? What does this mean? And then I'm like, I don't know. And then she's like, is the five years still on the table? And I was like, no, like what? I don't know. I think she, was really emotional. ⁓ speaker-1: So did the judge let him deadlock and do the verdict? speaker-0: The judge pulled them. They all said that they could not come to a verdict on count one. So it was hung seven, five, seven for not guilty. So he dismisses count one. And now I feel like I'm okay. Like now at this point, I'm like, there's no way seven people. Well, I guess that's just what I thought. Maybe it was, and I heard them laughing in the back. They come out as not guilty on count two. speaker-1: Hey. speaker-2: for Kidnap. speaker-0: on the kidnap and my client is just like clinging to my arm like sobbing into my arm. speaker-2: So the judge, wait, the judge dismissed? speaker-0: I'm sorry. He declared a mistrial at that point speaker-2: ⁓ okay, you didn't dismiss. Okay. I'm so sorry. Declared a missed trial. speaker-0: Wow. speaker-1: Right, didn't get your way to get the 10-8-5. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh, she would have had a conviction. speaker-1: Mm-hmm speaker-2: All right, I'm sorry I interrupted you on the sobbing part. So your client's, you're sobbing, she's hugging you, you're hugging. speaker-0: It was just like, felt just like a very human, just like, felt just like hurt the relief, but she's still, you know, she's crying, but then she's like, what's, what's happening with the car, Jackie? I'm like, I'm trying to figure it, you know, I'm like trying to get to that point. So the jurors leave and I asked the judge to dismiss on account one, you know, I say they couldn't run any other evidence, you know, she testified, they had all the witnesses. And again, this judge was right for this case. He, agreed with me. ⁓ and he dismissed it. speaker-1: Wow. Client walked out in a moo moo of free woman. speaker-2: And then I killed speaker-1: Nice work, Annalise. Did you talk to the jurors afterwards? They did not want to talk to you. speaker-0: Thank you. was... They all fled. It's not happening. Not me. They're like ATD level. speaker-1: Yeah, they were done. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, it was, it was great. ⁓ yeah, the client, ⁓ the, son had had my Google voice number. She texted me like a couple of days later, she was, or maybe a week later, she was just like, can't tell you, ⁓ thank you so much. can't tell you what it means to me to have you fight for me like that. ⁓ Mr. George, let me a car. I'm starting work. was like, ⁓ Mr. George ever again. speaker-1: No, he really shouldn't. Also, from now on, let Mr. George get his own cars back. Way to go, speaker-2: What should the title be for this episode like Mr. George's neighborhood or? Or I don't know we'll think of something Dan demand speaker-0: Damn the man. speaker-1: Down the man, I mean. speaker-2: Yeah. But the great trial though, that's, I mean, that's such a great trial to go in like that, not knowing what's going to happen. I think sometimes when we go to trial, we know all the facts and we know what, you you just got to your case on and like whatever happens happens, but to just kind of be open to whatever's going to happen and be in the moment to kind of just go with the flow of things. It's like, it's hard to do and it's very nerve wracking. So a lot of props to you, Ana, at for that. That was awesome. That was good. speaker-0: Thank you. It was a relief for Diane. speaker-1: And for you, another hometown hero. I like it when we have our own people. speaker-2: So Annalise, you've been a public defender for how long? speaker-0: ⁓ Almost six years. speaker-2: Okay. And why did you become a public defender? We want to know. speaker-0: I became a public defender. I know you asked this question. I grew up with a brother with autism. We are 12 months and 12 days apart. We are so close in age. He is the light of my life. And I think growing up, I was really in tune to inequities and how some people, you know, are going to need help ⁓ in life. They're more vulnerable to things. My faith, I view people, you know, my faith dictates that everybody has dignity and inherent worth. And I think in our system, ⁓ our clients are not treated like they have any worth or dignity or, know, because of race or socioeconomic status or, you know, what they've done in the past. So at, when I was a sophomore in college, I interned at the public defender in Santa Barbara. I was in drug court. All I did was take notes for the attorney. And I thought. what a cool job to help people, to protect people. Yeah, that's why I just grew up with that mindset and this job I think fits that perfectly of being able to protect people every day. speaker-1: Hear hear. speaker-2: Well, glad to have you on our team, Annalise. And I know when I went back to Charles recently, they moved me to Compton. The felonies in my office was right around the corner from Annalise. And I never heard of her or knew her, but I always popped in and said hi to her. She was always great to talk to. So it's great to have you here and work with you every day. speaker-0: Well, thank you for having me. If I had known you, you know, hosted this podcast, I would have been friendlier. speaker-1: You are suitably impressed now though, right? speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh, over the moon. speaker-2: All right, but thanks for being on the show and Lauren, as always, great to hang out with you and see you. speaker-1: So great to see you. Nice to meet you, Annalise. Glad you're part of the team. Bye, speaker-2: Bye everybody. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty. Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A &G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix. And guess what? We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from... speaker-0: the trenches.