Tori Nook: Hi, welcome back to the Tori Nook talk show where real conversations meet real success. I'm Tori Nook and I'm the founder and CEO of Anchor Retail. I'm an entrepreneur, a wife and mama three. In each episode, I feature founders, entrepreneurs, wellness leaders and personal development voices who've built their successful careers and their lives with intention, intuition and a strong sense of who they are. And today's guest is Tamara Alexander Johnson. ⁓ ⁓ is an accomplished executive, independent board director, strategic advisor ⁓ with more than 30 years experience in the global markets guiding growth, governance and also enterprise transformation across a wide range of ownership structures. She's the CEO of Corporate Real Estate Advisory Services, where she provides strategic advisory to help organizations optimize their corporate real estate portfolios and delivers executive level reporting for CEOs and board directors. She's also an adjunct professor at the University of Denver in Colorado at the Daniels College School of Business. Over the course of her career, she has led and advised on more than five billion in corporate real estate transactions and ⁓ &A activity across office, retail, industrial and mixed use, medical office, land development, and long-term ground leases. Her experience spans work with public REITs, Fortune 500 companies, private investor groups, international finance institutions, foreign-owned entities, and government organizations. Her work has taken her across complex global markets all throughout Europe, Central and South America, Canada, Australia, and Asia. And today, she continues to serve organizations through board and advisory leadership across real estate, financial services, renewable energy, agricultural land retail, manufactured housing and self storage. And she and I met through a former podcast guest, Marcy Moneypenny. Both of them are from Colorado. So anyone out of Colorado shout out to, we've had a lot of guests coming out of that state. So welcome to the show, Tamara.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Hahaha Thank you, Tori. really am excited that you invited me to join today.

Tori Nook: You've got a very exciting resume background here. You're really the first of ⁓ your on the podcast, really. from a real standpoint with all the ⁓ &A and everything you've done, it's ⁓ very impressive. And I'm just like what originally drew you into this industry of corporate ⁓ &A in real estate, ⁓ global real estate, What's your story?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Well, my story actually is probably fairly simple in its beginnings. years ago, was studying for my real estate broker's license in the state of Colorado and in the class was sitting next to two different ladies that were in office leasing. And obviously I really had no idea that people actually paid someone to represent them in the market to lease their space. It just never occurred to me.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: So I spent the time to get to know them, finished of course getting my license. then I started investigating, well, how does this work? Do the property owners have the representatives? Which I found out of course, the listing agents. Then do the tenants have someone that represents them? And yes, those are the transaction brokers. So I started networking in the Denver community and actually interviewed with a couple of people, but ended up with a gentleman who's, ⁓

Tori Nook: great.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: daughter was my age, relatively speaking, and he took a liking to me and said, well, you're tenacious. I can teach you what you need to do. You just have to work hard and be committed to what you're doing because you're helping us as the owners with the properties that we own and you're helping those tenants, whatever their needs would be, whether it's office or industrial or they also had retail properties. And I thought,

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: you know, what a crazy, crazy win-win situation it can turn out to be if the negotiations go well enough. You know, in your times where things go sideways and then you just have to agree, well, it's not the right fit. And we're one parts company, usually amicably. But that just blossomed into moving around to other various owners of real estate assets and either helping to acquire the assets, which was my big push in the ⁓

Tori Nook: rape. Great.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: early 1990s, the savings and loan crisis. I worked with a group of investors that came to Denver from back East and said, Hey, we want you, we know the market, you've leased it. We want you to find properties for us to buy. And they had, of course, it was a family partnership when they brought in limited investors. Boy, that grew over a period of five years. We and another competitor bought up almost everything along the whole front range because

Tori Nook: Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Obviously, banks had repossessed these properties, savings and loans had failed. The Resolution Trust Corporation came in, took over those savings, loans, assets, and then insurance companies were taking back properties where people just walked away from them. So, I mean, what a wild ride. I mean, I bought office, industrial retail, we bought ⁓ vacant land, usually a jade, something that we owned. We bought bulk

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: units of condos that the full development had been done, but the developer just bailed when the construction loan failed. we came in and finished the works, did all the common areas, sold the assets. I mean, that went on for five years. That was just incredible.

Tori Nook: Rape. Rape. That is, well, what's the name of the company you worked for at the time? ⁓

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: It was Etkin Equities, ⁓ Bruce and Douglas Etkin out of Southfield, Michigan. And they also owned Etkin Construction at that time, but spun that off to the owners, the companies as Nesop.

Tori Nook: Okay. Okay. So they were sitting, I'm assuming on a pile of cash to come in. mean, as we know a lot, well, not a lot, but a decent amount. And now, especially with the boom of family offices, which we could talk about later, that are sitting on piles of cash, they cannot wait for crisis to come and jump. I I lived through the recession, been there, done that, did a ton of deals. I remember you can...

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Tori Nook: an older broker when I was interning told me the most money you're probably going to make is during the downtime. ⁓ Not true, but close, I'd have to say. And those guys, very intelligent that they did that. And that sure gave you a ton of experience across all different assets. Like it's interesting they didn't stick to just one, like say retail or just industrial. mean, they went across the whole board, which made your job.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Right. Well, it instantly, it's, right. ⁓ it made it incredibly fun for me because I thought I was just always going to be an office leasing, but you know, the industrial, high cube product was no brainer. I mean, we've even come in and do the improvements to the properties. We buy them at 50 % least if even that. Then, ⁓ after the CapEx was done and start a real marketing campaign with brokers that we'd hire in the community, we build the assets up to over.

Tori Nook: you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: 100 % vacancy occupancy in almost all the properties. And then we had several offers to sell, but they didn't want to. We just kept this going for about five years. In fact, they just liquidated. They are now probably in their 80s, the brothers and their partners, and they liquidated about right before COVID. Their ⁓ original portfolio that I had probably amassed for them.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. ⁓ okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: of about 250 million in 1995 values to over 600 million when they sold it in 2019. So it is a good story. It is.

Tori Nook: Wow. Wow. Interesting. That's a great story. And especially in Marin. What's nice is, what's interesting is people don't realize, you know, I think a big thing I like to emphasize, especially the younger listeners or even people in our middle career, when you want to get into real estate, you just need to start, right? You start off in brokerage, leasing, then you move into working for a developer, you acquisitions them. for five years and then what did you do after you left their group?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Well, it was actually around 2011. I had my daughter after that period of time, and she was just about five or six and ⁓ went to work. Also kind of just a friend that helped refer me to this role at Western Union, which you know is a Fortune 500 company, one of the oldest stocks traded on the stock exchange. And was, and... ⁓

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah. Yes, that's a great stat, right?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: and they needed someone to come in and begin what they call basically transaction manager. Cause they leased about three to 4 million square feet of real estate globally, primarily office, but they had several retail functions. had several call centers that would sometimes be in old warehouses. And then they owned banks of course in Europe. And that was my first.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: chance to ever work internationally and that was so exciting for me. And I was there eight years.

Tori Nook: Right. It's not ⁓ either, you know, to get into not too many, unless you're working for a global services group, like at the CB or JLL, like not too many people could work for a company, you know, in house that is really doing real estate, totally globally. I mean, and that the fact that you weren't just stuck in the United States only doing the US portfolio, which I find interesting.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Right. That's true. Yes, well it was. I the Canada market's similar to the US in some respects, but when you go into Central and Latin America, totally different mindset and way of doing business. When you're in Europe, I remember one of the first transactions, a funny story, a lease renewal in Moscow, even though we also would hire brokers in the local markets. This time I moved up more, I was supervising all the other transactions team.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: construction management team and then our lease repository, which we would have for portfolio of assets. And when the lease finally came in after we negotiated the deal with a letter of intent, literally one half of the page was in Russian, the other half was in English. It ended up being like a 50 page document because you had to try to review all of it. And the attorneys would do it along with me because they wanted me to review the business points, make sure everything was right.

Tori Nook: Right, okay. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: and they were looking at the legal issues. But I remember making a joke, well, do we have to sign it in Russian on the left side and English on the right? ⁓ we did that with our attorney, who was a general counsel of Western Union. And he laughed and he said, well, I don't know, we're pretty big-tent. And I don't think they're going to force us to do that.

Tori Nook: Yeah, that is kind of funny because of the fact that they're in a a whole different alphabet system.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Completely different. ⁓ But working internationally was just so fascinating for me. And actually, what I started to say is that period of time was 2011. And that was moving me forward to where, you know, I've culminated today working on the corporate real estate sector of the industry. So, you know, both Western Union and when I was at VF Corp, and then my time at BBVA Bank, we were the ⁓ occupier.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: either owning the space with the banks or Western Union, primarily using it, same with VF Corp. And they had a central policy that I helped them to develop that really said, is, mean, obviously we do business internationally, but these offices can all look pretty much the same anywhere we design them based on what's going on in the office. Let's develop these, we call them our...

Tori Nook: Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: ⁓ Workplace of the Future Standards and it was a facilities optimization model based on the size of the office. If it was a small go-to-market sales office, ⁓ for instance, we purchased the Fintech company custom house that was all over Canada in probably the 90s through about 2010 and that's when we, they just finished the merger when I was joining them and it was ⁓

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: I we have to consolidate these offices. We don't need five offices in Calgary or three in Toronto. And then eventually when we bought other European companies, we'd have five in Paris, right? And six in London. mean, no, we need to consolidate these. So this was how we took the opportunity, ⁓ leading the corporate real estate team to say, let's create some uniform standards. And it also saved money. Obviously we'd built by the same furniture, as you know, that, ⁓

Tori Nook: Okay. Great.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: strategic sourcing team would do all of that, but based on our direction, what, you the test fits were done by the architects we used in those markets. And we would say, you know, this is, office is going to house 50 people. So this is what it should look like. And what helped me was to be able to go to the senior leaders, usually the CFOs of each of the units that Western Union owned at that time. Or I actually had several meetings directly with the CFO of ⁓ Western Union.

Tori Nook: right?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: to say, here's my business case. This is what it looks like. We can stay here and renew and cut down the square footage. Or if you think you're going to expand, we have an option for an additional whatever it would be. Then here's if we pack up and move to two other locations and completely consolidate, we can even lower our footprint. Because usually you could. You go into new shell space, there's economies of scale and you can negotiate to fit into 10,000 feet instead of 15, five, right? As an example.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. Right. Totally. right?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: I'd show them the P &L savings. This is what makes sense. mean, we're going to have to pay to move to the other space and build it because Western Union paid for all their own TIs, even though we advertise it over the terminal lease. And I would just say, this is my recommendation. Stay here and renew in this space for three years. See how the business unit really grows now after we've acquired this other company. And if it shouldn't grow as you wanted, then we have an early termination clause.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Conversely, if it's going to go well, then we can get out of this lease and really move forward with the size that we need. And that's what I did, ⁓ gosh, for all the assets at Western Union. Then when I moved to VF Corp, that was in 2019. And, ⁓ you know, they actually own 25 brands, but the biggest ones are Vans, ⁓ Jansport, the backpack, Timberline Boots.

Tori Nook: Yes. Okay. ⁓ really? Mm-hmm. No. Mm-hmm. ⁓ right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: North Face jackets. When they moved from California to Denver, it was with about five of their brands. ⁓ And we negotiated a long-term lease in lower downtown Denver called ⁓ Lodo. It's near the Union Station. Right at the time that was all being redeveloped. ⁓ I negotiated a lease to put in three airport hangers at the Centennial Airport for their private jets. I mean, never done that before.

Tori Nook: Okay, got it. Yes. Right. Okay. That's a different one. Yeah, you've really spanned everything in your career, which I find interesting because not too many people, so many people are just in a set course or just even just set whether only in development, only in leasing, only in brokerage. And it's interesting how years really spread, which leads you to like where you are today. So now you have your own company. ⁓ what year did you wind up starting that?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Right? Right? Right. Well, actually between ⁓ leaving VF Corp and then COVID hit, and then my stint at the Colorado State University System, which is a ⁓ land grant university from the state of Colorado, and they have a major veterinary medical center in Fort Collins, north of Denver. We also have ⁓ quite a bit of bio med.

Tori Nook: Right. Mm-hmm. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: studies that they're doing and tenants on their property. This is the CDC leases 100,000 square feet from them. And it's on the part of the campus called the Foothills campus. So it's separate from the main campus. But they asked me to come and lead the real estate services team for the university and all their assets, which was real property, land, agricultural land, water rights, mineral rights, the leases.

Tori Nook: Okay. ⁓ wow. Right. Mm-hmm. ⁓ nice.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: that we would do for the forestry service. mean, again, they're just a very different animal. And they had five campuses, three in Fort Collins, ⁓ one in Denver, one in Pueblo, which is south of Colorado Springs, and then in Todos Santos, Mexico. Of all places, it was an agricultural research center donated to the university. So it was just fast. And that was working really in more government.

Tori Nook: Wow. Mm-hmm. Right. Thank interesting. I didn't know all that.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: regimented type of situat of governors made all the land. So I made the pre whenever we needed to lo or there was a large prope to the university or about help them to see, well, th asset because what's e

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: convincing them instead to just sell it on their own and bequeath the money to the university. Things like they would never think about. They just thought, ⁓ I'll take any asset given to me. But some of them, know, functional obsolescence was involved. The capital maintenance to keep up the property was probably too high. it costs money just to hold on to it in the property taxes versus whatever income can be generated. But they didn't think about it from a real estate standpoint. So I enjoyed it. I did that for about three years. But then the...

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. brain.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: They offered me early retirement and that's when I moved back into my consulting. I also started teaching at the University of Denver.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. At the same time. So what made you decide that you wanted to start teaching? Cause I think it's great. I always thought the best professors that I had a business school for this former CEOs, ⁓ you know, or CFOs or chief marketing from, you know, various companies. Cause they had real hands on experience, real hands on experience and fantastic stories to tell, to go along with your boring textbook stuff.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Yes. There's companies. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, that had me in a situation where I had to, and it was offered to me by a colleague who was on a board of directors with me with Cornet Global International Real Estate and then the local Colorado chapter. And he needed to do some traveling with his students and take time off to finish the book and asked me to step in and teach the class. And I said, well, what am I going to teach? And he said, corporate real estate and facilities management. And I said, that's what I do for a living. Of course, that's wonderful. I'd love to do it." And, you know, I said, well, you have the working knowledge that they need to hear. And, know, obviously there was a textbook and, you know, curriculum that I followed, but he was very generous saying, you know, adjust it the way you need to bring in all your examples at Western Union, VF Corp, show them what it's like to own or operate a university portfolio that's so much different from other commercial real estate.

Tori Nook: Right. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: And I speakers come in and speak about all sorts of topics. know, because now we're in the post world of work, right? The post COVID world and totally different environment. show them what I was doing at Western Union, you know, 2011 through, you know, 2018. And then COVID hit and now there's a new world of work. So I would bring in colleagues that I have one in particular was at Cognizant and they are a third party.

Tori Nook: Thanks. Totally.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: service provider of internationally, but mainly in APAC and ⁓ also in India, but it's of the space. They'll rent it, the office space or call center. They rent all the equipment and they provide the employees and someone like Western Union, because we use them could just come in and say, we want to call center here for 24 months to see how it's going to look and operate for us. And we just want to write one check every month for everything. ⁓

Tori Nook: ⁓ nice. Okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: This gentleman who came to speak said, well, I'm going to show you what our space looks like now globally, because I had to reduce from 6 million square feet down to 4 and 1 million square feet within 18 months. And this was only for a three-day return to work environment, because they just couldn't force people other than, in India and in China, or the Philippines, who

Tori Nook: a lot. Okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: don't have the work environment in their home that we do. They don't even have high speed internet. Nor do they usually have the computer or the facilities or the space. So they were willing to come back to the office and yet companies were saying, yeah, but I...

Tori Nook: Right. Right. Now. Mm-hmm. Right. That's a really good point. This is probably why the virtual assistant, that could be a whole other topic, has just exploded from those countries. Yeah.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Right. It has. But I'd help the students to see now. ⁓ I had a gal come in last spring and her whole topic was neurodiversity. And she's doing it in office space as well as in the universities and libraries and such. That there are people who need to come in and do heads down work in the office, but they have sensory issues. So it's like a literally a pod. But inside, you can control the lighting, the HVAC, ⁓ you can have music piped in if you need it, calming music. Completely close it off, work there for period of time. And even if you end up having to have a conference call in there with another part of your team, do so with all the equipment attached. it's just phenomenal.

Tori Nook: Right. That's... Well, it is fascinating because so many more people now than ever have sensory issues. And that's very interesting topic to study. ⁓

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Correct. Well, that was good for her to show the students how now that has to be taken into account in any office space we're designing, primarily internationally, not so much here in the States, but.

Tori Nook: sure does. Right. No, it's a global, it definitely is global. ⁓ So how much of your time is spent between now that you're at the point of your career that you have your consulting company, you're teaching, what takes up more time? I'm assuming are you focusing more on the consulting and teaching one class like a semester? How are you balancing all that? Okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: It's a graduate class offered twice a year ⁓ and DU is on the quarter system, so spring quarter and fall. But actually the other half of what I've been doing the last year and half is really focusing on board of director service. while I am now on the board of directors of Colorado, the credit union of Colorado, and it's about the fourth largest one here in Colorado.

Tori Nook: Okay. Okay, what do you do in that end? Okay. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: And I'm also on the board of a nonprofit organization that deals with the family situations in their various stages of homelessness. And that's also part of a national organization called Family Promise. Right. But I'm actively interviewing with a couple of other regional banks and some real estate investment companies that are either startup, they're one in particular is doing a new retail AI.

Tori Nook: ⁓ I see. Okay, you have heard of that.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: prop tech kind of device specifically for hotels. And ⁓ they haven't quite gone fully public yet and pulled the trigger. But what a great concept. mean, all of the property check has changed dramatically in our commercial buildings, whether office, retail, industrial, medical, all since the post-COVID world of work. So they've come up with this software plan to help with the maintenance and operations and even the booking for these hotel chains.

Tori Nook: ⁓ cool. Okay. ⁓ heave. Trastic. Right. Okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: So they sell the whole software. ⁓ I've just found that with my business experience, even though it's primarily commercial real estate, course, ⁓ it's so diverse with the ⁓ &A activity of fintech companies. And the biggest push the last 10 years has been on sustainability. And companies in large corporate entities like Western Union have to prove to their shareholders, to their...

Tori Nook: Right. right? Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: board and to ⁓ their employees or sometimes even the landlords, what they are doing to be sustainable. Are they lowering their carbon footprint? Are they producing a product that is harmful or can it be a renewable project? And this was a lot of what happened at the university as well. And I really focused on being able to present to boards my training and expertise on not just ESG, but the

Tori Nook: rate. interest. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: environmental, the sustainability issues, and the governance needed to really implement a policy and keep it going.

Tori Nook: What do you think boards need most from their executive leaders today? Other than we talked about sustainability. If they more women, I figured you'd say that.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Well, first of all, need more women. Need more women. But you need more people of ⁓ diverse backgrounds. You really do. I'm just finding that if, as I'm interviewing, if it's still a group of the typical, ⁓ right, group think that, ⁓ you know, it's great to have the interview and the time to talk to them, but.

Tori Nook: Okay. Same old, yeah.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: If I don't feel I can be valued, then I'd rather look at another opportunity where I will be. And that's where I found that people that do have cyber training or specific HR training, because it's so important how to keep your employees. Because we had the great, what was it called? Right after COVID-20, 21, 22, all the baby boomers, well not all of them, but a good majority of decided to quit. Yeah.

Tori Nook: Right. Right. true. ⁓ yeah, yeah, that had a name. can't remember what it was. Yeah.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: I just forgot the name. so companies were scrambling to get the employees in, to get them trained because some of them were new out of college. And we're now finding, in fact, this happens a lot with the majority of the top international companies, they started bringing in a chief human resources officer to lead the corporate real estate team, have them roll up to them rather than just the finance leaders, which is what it always was when I was at Western Union and VF Corp.

Tori Nook: pray.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: in particular, because they need, it's not just go into a market, consolidate, eliminate jobs you don't need and lower your footprint. No, it's how do we keep these employees? How do we, if they're not exactly gonna be what we need in this Frankfurt office, could they work in Munich? Just as an example, does everyone have to just be terminated and find another job and then we have to pay to retrain them and put in new benefits and.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. rate.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: It was almost a vicious cycle. the chief human resources officers now are really saying, this is the market that's tough. We have to work to keep our people. This is what we need to do. And this is how you have to design the offices. And that's why a lot of this neurodiversity came up.

Tori Nook: That is really interesting, like long-term enterprise value, like you're bringing from like your deep experience in the governance, succession planning, risk management, know, policy oversight that I don't think a lot of people even really talk about, you know, especially because times are still uncertain. They've my opinion been uncertain since COVID. And unfortunately, I personally think this is worse than the recession because we're still going with no end in sight.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: They are. Well, thank you for that comment because I do feel like I have a lot to bring to the table. ⁓ it's just, you know, being in the right environment for someone to see ⁓ the value is there, that I'll be the 30,000 foot level strategic advisor. I'm not going to come in and operate because that's not what you do at the board level. You know, ⁓ old saying is ⁓ in, fingers out, you know.

Tori Nook: you Hahaha. now.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Be aware of what's going on and be able to talk about it succinctly and be able to offer new ideas that might be needed. But you're not there to run the company. You would shift it. Just support the CEO and his or her staff so they can run it properly.

Tori Nook: Yeah. I more women, ⁓ I know there's a lack of women, especially in even your generation. I you were one of the few that's working corporate America in the 90s, right? But there's obviously a few women that worked the latter since the 80s. Like they're obviously either retired, close to retiring. mean, why would they not go into board leadership? positions ⁓ with certain companies. I a lot of them are paid to and a lot of them, I the big ones are, why would they, why do think there's a lack of them? And you think people don't want them? Or they just don't want to do it?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Well they are, they are play. Well, it's probably three different things. Sometimes having been in this industry 30, 35 years, know, pretty male dominated, ⁓ fighting to get where we needed to get to and have your voice at the table and seat at the table. They may just be tired and say, you know what, I've done it. I've done it. I'm ready to move on. And there are those of us that

Tori Nook: Right. Just that they're, blown out. Yeah. They're

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: realized, well, you know, that the younger women coming up behind us, and even some of the younger men, it's a different environment now. They need sponsors. They need mentors to help them. They only choose which way to go. And that's what I bring up in my class. Everybody thinks they want to be a developer. And I said, well, you realize you can make $150,000 a year as a facilities director and look at what you get to do, work with all this cool property tech and.

Tori Nook: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: You know, you're advised on everything when it comes to capital improvement costs, which are very important. And I think it's just that that's a group that they realize I want to give back, which I do, and continue to support the business environment with our skill set. But the third part of it is you need to know that it's some ways going to be similar to when you started in the industry and commercial estate 30 years ago. You need to know that.

Tori Nook: rape, huge. Mm-hmm. Great.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: You have to speak your mind, groove with your background and your work environment, your education, your other accolades, whatever they've been, know, been in board service or leadership roles, that you have a right to be at that table. You have things to bring to them that could be helpful. And just assume that if you keep making the connections and be patient, that something will come to fruition.

Tori Nook: Right. Right? mean, you're known to be like a collaborative leader in the various companies you've been with. I mean, in your experience, and this even comes to the board, what separates a good leader from a truly transformative one?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: I think you have to decide to be a good leader and it's not always easy. You want to be a servant leader. ⁓ want to know I'm here ⁓ lead and guide my people. I may have to kind of direct them down a path once or twice, but I have to let them learn it on their own, support them if they make mistakes or if they ⁓ tremendous success ⁓ lead by that example.

Tori Nook: Right. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: say this is what I did in my career and these are some knocks I had to take and even some hard criticism I had to take. I'm not gonna push that on you, I'm just going to make some suggestions that you can see possibly the benefit of learning from what I did wrong or right.

Tori Nook: rate. You're now the third guest that has talked about servant leadership and that's how they lead, which I think that's great that you mention that that's one of the best ways to go because I agree you learn by mistake but you do need the support because some people just don't even have the support. Like I was even wondering when you were working especially for Western Union and bigger companies like that but the fact that you were working in the international arena and I understand you had people there in those countries whether it's brokers or whomever, ⁓ architects that you're working with but who trained you to do those jobs because even when you're working in those countries you even have to understand the customs so you're not disrespectful and it's I remember taking a whole class on culture business communications when I was in business school.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: The culture. Well, I've always been one to seek out both men and women that were a little bit more experienced than I was and to ask them, you know, can you help me with this issue? And when it was doing transactions, really before I went to Western Union, there was a top lady broker here in Denver with CBRE and one of the top producers too.

Tori Nook: Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: but very petite blonde woman, very quiet, but very well-spoken, very well-educated. And she's one would help me to say to myself, know, Tamra, you can do this and don't give up. Don't let anyone dissuade you. And if something happens that you're uncomfortable about it, then just find a polite way to exit. Just get out of the room, get out of the situation, get out of the deal. If that was something like that, because your reputation is more important. than someone being manipulative or harmful to you.

Tori Nook: Right. Well, that's stage advice. In these companies that you're with, did they assign a mentor to you? Because see, like, I didn't have one. And I was like, you, I'm going to, I noticed who's the top work, you know, ranking person and the fact that they're approachable and that I could go ask them questions. I mean, I'm like, train myself, but I didn't know if a lot of the companies you're with, if they really had somebody mentoring you or did you just have to shuffle around and ask questions?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Right, yes. I shuffled around, I asked senior leaders at Western Union. I would get to know the brokers that we'd work with in the other markets. And I would say, can you take a few more minutes after we're on this call and just make sure I'm understanding the culture and the time difference, not just the time from Denver to London, but in Italy, the entire month of August, no one works.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you had to hurry up and get those deals done before the next date. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: But you had to get things done by about mid July, right? And then remember that in December, about mid December, all the Christmas and holiday situations began. But it goes through into mid January. So without knowing this, I didn't understand it. But then I had to be the one to explain back when I was running. Right, I go to the seniors with my business case and they wouldn't be signed the lease. Well.

Tori Nook: why nothing was getting done.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: And we have it all teed up to bring it to them January 15th when they're back in the office and we'll pay attention to it. You know, and they just didn't understand. ⁓ But you know, after a while, when you've begun to do business in these different parts of the world, you just realize there's a different culture.

Tori Nook: Is that one of the ways, like what really expanded with your global experience, like the way you think about business leadership navigating change?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Well, what was interesting is ⁓ it's still very male dominated in certain cultures. For instance, Central and South America, very male dominated, very, and not in a negative way. It's just that they will sit, the CEO would have his office with a conference room next to it. And while they having their meeting or making the deal, then they all sit afterwards and.

Tori Nook: Right. Okay. No, right, I understand.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: smoke their cigars and sip on their tequila. And that was just part of them doing their business. And of course I never really wanted to partake in it, but you had to find a polite way to say, I'm sorry, I need to go back. have work to do or whatever it is and let them finish with that and never feel that I offended them, right? Because they invited me to do this. That's not really my cup of tea. when I, you know, I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be the only woman in that room anyway.

Tori Nook: Okay. Right. Yeah, right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: in that situation, right? Because it wasn't business anymore at that time. One thing I was going to say to you is that at Western Union, I got a group of the women together. They did all different things in Western Union, usually at the VP level. And we formed our own leaning circle. And we did this in like 2014, 2015. And it was general counsel's assistant, her paralegal, VP of procurement, VP of finance.

Tori Nook: Nice. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: one of the gals who was running the governance in all the European markets.

Tori Nook: Do you think more companies now already automatically do that, especially after all this DEI and everything? I know you have to work at Urban America for a while, I'm curious if, I wonder if they do that more so because I was really smart on your end, I think, to do that and to lean in.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: I hope so. Well, the book had just come out, Cheryl Sandberg's book, and I remember reading it and I remember talking to a couple of ladies that I knew. I didn't know all of them at the time when we formed, it was about seven of us in the group. And I said, you know, we can do this. We need to help each other. We all have these same challenges, not only with maybe men in our groups, but when we're dealing with this international environment, you know, we need to get together and brainstorm. And it lasted for probably 18 months. It was just the best program.

Tori Nook: Right. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: And then we all decided, you some people got other job offers and would leave or, ⁓ you know, just make changes. So we brought it to an end, kind of like a mentor program. You know, it's not indefinite. ⁓

Tori Nook: Okay. Did you feel that you also helped support each other? Because I feel like not until recently has this really come out in the past couple years post-COVID, but I think a lot of working women don't have anybody to really understand even how to balance work life with kids themselves, their husbands, the home management aspect of it.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: You know, in fact, ⁓ this was one of the topics we first brought up in our Gleanin circles. One of the gals was a VP of marketing and she was ⁓ pregnant with the first child and ⁓ never occurred to her to check and see, which is probably a lot of us, because by this time my daughter was about 10, 10, 11, 12, but they only offered like eight weeks paternity leave. Our European countries.

Tori Nook: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bye now.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: They get a year off paid, their position stays there while they're gone, and they come back and just step right back into it. we were thinking, here we are in the United States, we're in the corporate office, and we don't even have a policy like that.

Tori Nook: You know, United States is what I think the third worst ⁓ maternity. It's literally it's terrible. mean, really eight weeks is long and normally it's six weeks, which I think is insane. And then technically, unless the laws of change, can with by law take off six months, but they are only obligated to pay you up to three. Unless that's changed recently. I haven't had kids nor have any of my friends in a long time, Which is nuts. It's nuts.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Well, that's part of what we all had to try to help her figure it out. then we brought it up to, each of us made a point to bring it up to our senior leaders of our divisions and say, can we address this policy nationally? And, you know, we'll form the task force if we need to, can we bring this to someone's attention? Because for one thing, it's onerous.

Tori Nook: Okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: You know, here in our country, we can't even get, you know, decent maternity leave or even investigate, you know, child care facilities on the site. And they have been doing that. That's one of the, well, now since COVID, now we have, can bring your dog to work. You can have the doggy daycare. But you know, it gets people back to the office and, you know, it's an amenity that tenants and employees, you know, want to have now.

Tori Nook: which a lot of big companies have been doing. Yeah, seriously. Right. Great.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: But to your point, was one thing that we didn't quite get everything solved. She actually went to her discount, in particular, her was Rebecca, went to her manager and he said, well, how much time do normally have for her vacation? And it was like six or seven weeks. And he said, you know what, I'm going to give you full three months. No one's going to know that you're not working after your initial whatever it was, probably 15 weeks, you know, and.

Tori Nook: Okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Every once in a while you can just check and leave the email or give me a call. He said, your job would be here when you get back. He said, unfortunately, you can't tell everyone about this until there's a policy change, but you're important enough to me and I know what you're going to go through and I don't want to lose you. And so, you know, it was a simple win for us, not a big one, but it did bring the, and anyhow, it was coming up in our New York office, California offices.

Tori Nook: Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: I mean, I was a single mom. ⁓

Tori Nook: I think people don't realize that, you you may lose a couple of weeks out of somebody, but at the same time, the cost of having to train someone new, rehire someone new when you have a really good employee The fact that he had the humility and the common sense to work with her is awesome.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: It is. It is.

Tori Nook: Yeah, it is a battle. mean, would you consider like, are some of like the harder like seasons in your journey that you felt like that taught you about resilience and leadership? mean, that's, know, maternity leave is one battle, but what else did you feel was out there?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Well, there have been times I was passed over for promotion and working on a team and you know this in brokerage and you're doing the co-calling, you're bringing in the deals, ⁓ you're working them ⁓ and they, they, I I'll just say the establishment might come and say, you know, ⁓ some of those top clients of yours, those deals, we're gonna give them to the guys over here because they're.

Tori Nook: Okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: They're just stronger in this area and you can stay on the team, but it's going to be run by, you know, Joe Smith. And, you know, it was that sort of.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. And then how do you handle that? Because I've had younger girls come to me and ask me that same or that same scenarios happen. And what would you, what is your advice on that?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: I learned the hard way, approach it two different ways. Either go to the male team that they're assuming I'm just going to roll right into and take my deals to, right? And talk to the head of them and say, listen, ⁓ I understand what's going on here and I'm not going to interfere with this power play, but I want the recognition for what I'm doing. The deals I'm working on, I don't care if your name is the lead, but then I'm listed too.

Tori Nook: Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: is having negotiated this transaction. And I want the credit when you do all those team events where so-and-so's team did $5 million in transactions this year. Just give me the credit that's due if my deals come to fruition. And that was usually better. A couple of times I went directly to the mail, usually the leader of the office, and I was just told, sorry, that's just the way we do it here.

Tori Nook: raise. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: you don't like it, you can leave.

Tori Nook: Right, exactly.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: And I stayed kind of to finish some deals and then I left because I knew it wasn't going to change. I just, I said, I'm going to find a better environment.

Tori Nook: Yeah, no, it's not going to change. Yeah, these are to move on and the intuition and know like this isn't going to last long, long term.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Right. And incidentally, that's kind of when I would make the transition then to go more into the corporate real estate world. ⁓ Which not that didn't happen, but it was.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: It wasn't quite the male hierarchy to the sense that we had a full team. had the construction manager, the project manager, the HNS manager, know, environmental health and safety and we get facilities and we have a legal team. So you always knew it was a team and everyone got recognition.

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. rape. That's very interesting.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Yeah. I think it was just different mindset because.

Tori Nook: You know, yeah, exactly. And every environment is different because I mean, I was fortunate enough where I did work in an environment where, you know, various environments where that it was like the smartest, hardest worker wins. They didn't really care who you were. But unfortunately there's environments where that doesn't matter. And you just got to kind of figure it out fast, especially if it's your first job. Like what's the, what's this, what's the inner sanctum of these cultures? you know,

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: And you know, that's what I'm doing with the young lady mentors, mentees in particular, but even have a couple of young male mentors at DU that are undergraduate. And I tell them, said, find your voice. Don't be, you know, bowled over by someone. ⁓ Just stick to your guns with you have the experience or the education or both and the willingness to learn. And you'll work hard, but you're not going to be

Tori Nook: ⁓ they need him too. mean, young males, absolutely. Because they could get a male for every which way. Right. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: taken advantage of or not appreciated.

Tori Nook: Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, exactly. Because this is not a male female thing. I mean, this is just across the board of how to conduct yourself in business using your voice. And this is even goes for not even just who you work for, but in my opinion, clients you're working with, the vendors you're working with as well. ⁓ You just have to. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Yes. They can be difficult at times and on purpose.

Tori Nook: And look, I always say people who have, you know, common sense, sometimes they don't even realize how they're even behaving or sometimes they rethink about decisions they've done, but you have to professionally use your voice to explain it. Right? I mean, don't get me right. You're going to come across, think some, we all do some crazy narcissists. You're not going to change. And that's when you just move on. There's no talking that's going to get you through. But you know, over the stage of your life and career, like how has the definition of success for you evolved? Like what's your definition from when you started to now?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: You know, I think looking back now, I mean, obviously it was always important to, you know, do the transactions to show the quantity and the dollar volume of them and, and have that accolade. But I early got involved in the commercial real estate groups like Crew Denver, part of Crew Network, ⁓ Cornet and NYOP and got involved in those boards or, ⁓ committee level.

Tori Nook: right. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I'm in that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: to realize that I wanna know what all is going on on the market and meet other people. And I also want that opportunity to build my leadership skills. And then let that be something that could be said about me too. she was a great...

Tori Nook: Right. Right. So you went from dollar value to being servant leader. How can I give back? Is your version of success? When you think about the legacy you want to lead, mean, that's obviously one of them is the servant leadership. ⁓ But what else matters to you the most?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Right, right. I think that's part of it. Well, one thing that I've enjoyed about the teaching, it's very similar to being a mentor or a sponsor, is that nothing makes me feel happier than when they'll come to me and say, thank you for that job interview that you helped me to prepare for, or thank you for that lead with that CEO of that development firm. I never would have had a chance to talk to them. then after they have the big win, whatever it is,

Tori Nook: Mm-hmm. for sure. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: and they'll post it now on LinkedIn, which is so common. And they'll thank me. They'll say, thank you to my mentor or to my professor. ⁓ I just, know, bells go off in my head. It's like, wow, well, I helped them. That's what I want to do. I it makes me feel proud, of course, but you know, I helped them to accomplish something and I feel even happier when they acknowledge me for having been there for them.

Tori Nook: Great. rate. Right, no, I agree. And that is something, again, going back to the teaching with all your experience that I don't think, I think a lot of professors obviously do it full time realize it, but even you're teaching one class a semester. I mean, so you leave such an impact to so many students. mean, great professors, that's what they do. They give you a leg up, right?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: They, well, that's what I feel is part of the role. You're not just supposed to stand up there and lecture to them. No. Get them engaged. Let them know how you can introduce them to other people in the industry. ⁓ Tell them about the other organizations to go to and meet other people. And you'll see why Urban Land Institute, ELI is so much different than NIOP, right? And look at IFMA, International Facilities Management Association. know, my gosh, that's a great...

Tori Nook: Right. No, which some do, but I like, yeah. Right. in network, right? Mm-hmm. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Internet is a group.

Tori Nook: And I think another good thing to note too is that students, ⁓ even like with international council shopping centers as well, they all have ⁓ discounts for students to be a member or to go to their conferences as well, which I think is something to highly, highly recommend doing. ⁓ Just one conference could be like a mini internship. What do you think has kind of switching gears like surprise yourself over the course?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: They do. Yes. Yes. I

Tori Nook: the most surprising the most about yourself over the course of your career.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Well, it surprised me how much I've grown, not only in my ability to do the transactions and the comfort level and understand the finances, but I've grown in the transaction itself where I would take a certain lead role and see it through to the end and be a part of that negotiation process that brought it to fruition. Even if I had a team, you still... want to, it's amazed me how the deals sometimes have become easier now after these years because you can see the roadblocks. You can see something coming that, and you have gut feelings. You're like, oh, this is not going to work. And, and you find you got to have a plan B. You always have to have a plan B. That's the story of my life. And I think what's also been the biggest surprise is that, well, as an example of my daughter, who's now 26 and been out of college now,

Tori Nook: Brave. rape. Great. Okay.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: About four years and not by any direction of my own has moved into the construction industry, commercial construction. And now she's on the marketing side, but with a big general contractor and ⁓ she's meeting all the people in that space, you know, the AECs and ⁓ the subcontractors and the other general contractors and just familiar with the construction process and

Tori Nook: Okay. Yes.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: I I knew about these things, but I didn't ever have to lead that part of it. That was what we turned over, know, that side of the business. And I'll go to functions now with her crew functions as an example, and she'll know more people there than I do. And it's just that she's really embraced, and there's women in construction industry here not too long ago, March, and that's really grown phenomenon here in Denver. And she's even spoke at some of these panels.

Tori Nook: Okay. Right, right. Mm-hmm. ⁓ nice.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: to say this is what we women can do to help one another in this industry. ⁓ They're really pushing for safety now, which I think is important, in physical safety, with the P &E. But also I think they're beginning to realize that ⁓ if there are any areas of some intimidation going on in that male environment to stand up for themselves. And I've even had my daughter say, mom, I learned from you.

Tori Nook: Interesting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: someone makes you feel uncomfortable, I'm gonna figure out a way to just get out of the room, get out of the situation, and I'll tell my other ladies too. And I said, good.

Tori Nook: right. Right. And that goes for men too, because I mean, some men are put in some crazy positions that could even be blackmail level too, you know. So you got to know who is around you. And that leads me to my last question is how do you protect like your energy and your clarity when you're operating at such a high level? Because you have a lot going on. Like you're working at corporate level, you're a single mom, you're running your household, you're taking care of yourself. Like what are you doing to protect yourself and stay grounded?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: See you. Well, I just have a glass of wine every evening. That helps. I love to cook, so I'll pour the wine, get dinner ready, kind of let myself de-stress, so to speak. I do enjoy playing golf, so I picked it up again the last few years. I'm not anywhere near as good as I'd like to be, but I'm playing with lot of other women and men, and it's fun for me. We live in a beautiful state here in Colorado, and I'm...

Tori Nook: Thank Decompress. Okay. That's fun. It's relaxed. ⁓ yeah.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: always out walking around. I look at the mountains and you know, I just read a lot as well because I think reading is helpful. And I just find, you know, I have a strong faith and I find that there are times where I'm just stretched to the limit or frustrated or disappointed. I just take a little walk and have a little talk. And yeah, and it'll help me get through some hard times.

Tori Nook: Yeah, it's pretty spectacular. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yes, I like that. Have a walk and have a little talk with God. I love it. I love it. Yes, that's Sage advice and you're my first guest that I've ever talked about having a glass of wine, which I think is great, you know, why not? ⁓ So before we wrap up, where can listeners find you and learn more about your work?

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: We'll. Well, my LinkedIn post is probably the most Right. ⁓ I have one for the business as well. ⁓ But ⁓ seems to cycle through the personal. ⁓ I also have ⁓ posting or I guess a bio through the University of Denver website. They've done that for all the professors and adjunct professors. ⁓ am ⁓

Tori Nook: your active social channel. Right.

Tamara Alexander-Johnson: Still involved with crew and in fact as a past president, now I'm involved again with their mentor program. But I also try to participate in many of the organizational meetings that I can and I'm still involved in ULI. And again, the LinkedIn profile is good to reach me. I'm pretty much available. People text and call and email me regularly. I will make myself, if I'm not, you know, I'll let you know, I'll get back to as soon as I can.

Tori Nook: Perfect. Good. Good to know. Well, thank you for listening to another episode of the Tori Nook Talk Show. And thank you, Tamara, for coming on. It was fun. ⁓ You can catch all these episodes every Tuesday across all channels on YouTube and Spotify and Apple. I'd love to hear from you. So if you enjoyed this conversation, please hit subscribe so you don't miss any episodes, read and review. ⁓ Send me a note on any topics that resonated for you for our next topic show and have a fabulous week.