Jason Nix: Welcome to Across the Globe. This is the official podcast for the Global Methodist Church. My name is Jason Nix. We are so glad that you are joining us today, whether you're listening or watching, social media, YouTube, whatever it is, we're so glad that you have joined us today for this conversation with Bishop Jeff Greenway. And we are here and just want to remind you guys as we're getting started and we're trusting the Lord and seeing this thing take shape, to like, share, subscribe, all of the things you're supposed to do. We want you to do it. Send a text to a friend and say, hey, check out Across the Globe. And just so we can continue to get the word out there, continue to call up stories from the local church as God moves in the global Methodist church at large. As I mentioned in sitting here waiting for me to stop yammering is Bishop Jeff Greenway. And we are excited to have this conversation today talking about just the history and what brought us to today and where we're going in the future all that kind of cool stuff but before I say anything else Bishop Greenway how are you doing today thank you for joining us Jeff Greenway: I'm doing great, Jason. Thanks for inviting me. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Jason Nix: Absolutely. Where are you? Where are you joining us from? Because we are global church. We always want to kind of see. Jeff Greenway: Right, I'm at my, one of my roles is I'm a conference superintendent as well and I'm at my conference office in Gehanna, Ohio just outside of Columbus. Jason Nix: All right, all right. So we already talked about all of the sports things that we needed to talk about being up there in Ohio. And so we got that cleared out before we jumped on the air here. I want to start real quick and just go straight to the point. We're getting ready for Johannesburg, our general conference in 26 in Johannesburg, South Africa, as was the case in 2024 in Costa Rica. Election of bishops is kind of front and center of the tasks that we will be taking on as a church body. And on March 18th, you released a statement saying that you would not be seeking re-election. So I want to just, I want to leave it real broad. Tell us about that process, how the Lord kind of spoke to you and moved and anything else that we would kind of be interested to know about what the Lord's been doing in your life. Jeff Greenway: I appreciate that. First of all, I've been involved with the formation of the Global Methodist Church since the very first meeting that took place at the Woodlands in July, August of 2016. I was the first chair of the WCA Council. I was a member of the Transitional Leadership Council, chaired the task force that wrote the first draft of the Book of Doctrines and Disciplines, and chaired the task force on the nature of the episcopacy. And when we were developing the plan for Costa Rica, we decided early on that we were going to have another general conference two years later because the whole church wasn't here yet. that there were parts of the church that had been able to get out and were ready to launch into a new denomination, but there are also parts of our movement that were not able to get out of our former connection. And there were also bodies of like-minded Wesleyan holiness denominations and collections of churches around the world who would want to become a part of what we were forming. When we're taking a look at that, decided that have this two year period of time that we would elect some interim bishops, people who agreed only serve for two years. So that when the whole church was here in 2026, that we'd be able to elect bishops for the whole church moving forward. And a couple of exceptions that were Scott Jones and Mark Webb, we grandparented them in and Scott is retiring at the same time. I am, but he's also, but Mark is going to stand for election. But, uh, we decided that that was the plan and the original plan was that we would only have people serve for two years. The original plan was we would, we would seek out retired elders who'd be willing to do this without any future career path, um, to, to make the episcopacy a longer term deal for them. Well, that was changed in the process leading up to the general conference. And that was not what was, adopted at the general conference. But I had said early on that if I was ever in that pool that I'd be willing to serve for two years. Well, about six years, by the grace of God, I was elected. I'm blessed to serve as a bishop. I love the teaching office. I love the role. I think Jason Nix: Yes, sir. Jeff Greenway: we've done the right thing dividing the temporal leadership of an annual conference to the conference superintendent and the apostolic leadership of the episcopacy into the role of the bishop. I think that's all great. But I was about six months into serving and I just began to hear from people, are you sure? Are you sure? And I said, yeah, I'm sure. I said I'd do this for two years. But one of the ways that the call of God has worked in my life is there's always been a consistent message that's come from a variety of voices in the same direction. was that way for my call to faith. It was that way for my call to ministry. It was that way for my call to go be president of Asbury seminary. It was that way to do the things I've been doing lately. So after about 15 of those messages from different people across the church, I said, you know what? pray about this. And it was people that I know very well, it was people that I don't know very well, it was fellow bishops, it was people in the administrative structure of the church, and so I began to pray about that. But was never settled that I ought to stand for election again, but in February of this year I was in Thailand having their second annual conference. Wonderful people in Thailand. And I stayed a couple of extra five days to meet with the emerging leaders from Vietnam and Myanmar Which hopefully Vietnam will have its convening conference this fall before I'm done being a bishop but that happened over at over Valentine's Day and in the in the inside pocket of my suitcase my wife had put a Valentine's card and In the Valentine's card there were two sentences that are not reconcilable. The first sentence was, am lost when you're not here. And the second sentence was, I know you're doing what you love to do. And I do love what I'm doing, but I love her more. And my wife doesn't care to travel the world. I love to travel. When we go, she needs to be back two weeks is the maximum amount of time. And so that just kind of weighed heavy on me. And I spent a couple of sleepless nights kind of wrestling through that. That was an irreconcilable differences. And in the priority list of my life, my love for Jesus is first, my love for my wife is second. And my vocation is not either one of those loves. Jason Nix: Yeah. Jeff Greenway: the byproduct of those loves, but it doesn't define who I am. So I actually wrote the first draft of that letter on the plane flying home from Thailand at the end of February and Jason Nix: Mm, yeah. Jeff Greenway: sat on it for a couple of days and a couple weeks and kind of massaged that a little bit more. But if you recall in the letter I listed four different reasons I said no. The first one is I gave my word and my word matters to me. Now that doesn't mean that God's call is static and God's call doesn't continue to unfold, but for me, there were a lot of people that I know voted for me in Costa Rica because I said I wouldn't stand for election. By the way, I prefer using that language. I hate the phrase running for bishop. In fact, that's language from our old connection. I Jason Nix: Yeah. Jeff Greenway: think we allow ourselves to stand for election and if we're not elected, that's okay. If we are elected, that's okay. It's not the same office as it used to be, although I would just say there are segments of the church that are still trying to discover that. But I said I wouldn't and my word matters. The second reason was my wife has sacrificed a lot, my kids and grandkids. I mean, for the last 10 years, I've had the equivalent of two full-time jobs. Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: One, pasturing the church or leading the annual conference that I was serving. And the second was building a denomination on the side. And I'm so profoundly grateful I was able to do that. But it's been a lot. She sacrificed a lot. My kids have sacrificed a lot. And just like my friend Keith Boyette came to recognize that there was a time and a purpose for everything, I came to realize that it was time for me to readjust my priority and with the time that I have left, you know, I want to spend it investing in the relationships that give me life and are the most fulfilling for me. The third reason actually is probably just as important as the first two. I think that founders need to model when it's time to leave. You know, I've been a founder. There's not a thing about our movement that doesn't have one of my thumb prints on it. And I'm not ashamed of any of that. I'm honored to have been a small part in what we've become. But... I happen to believe that one of the reasons we got in so much trouble in our former denomination is because people who would be like-minded with us did not understand when it was time to leave. And they held on to things and didn't transfer relationship or authority or even power to initiate change. And we lost a couple generations of people because of that. I just, know, George Washington, they wanted him to become king and the most important thing George Washington did was go back to Mount Vernon. and kind of set that tone. But those are, that's kind of the thought process. I'm, I was in perfect peace when I sent the email to the general Jason Nix: Yes. Jeff Greenway: episcopacy committee and to the assembly of bishops. And, I've been a perfect piece ever since. I, I'm, I'm not anxious about going to Johannesburg. I'm not anxious about any of that stuff. I, I, have opinions and I have concerns and I've shared those in appropriate ways in different places, but on a personal level, you know, I'm at peace. And I hope that the General Episcopacy Committee will choose to grant me Bishop Emeritus status. And if that's the case, I'll be glad to help the Assembly of Bishops in any way I can. And this will be the first time we've really had Emeritus Bishops who still have some gas in the tank that can help when things get thin. But I'll be able to pick and choose, you know. Jason Nix: Absolutely. And I'll just say, just a voice of gratitude, just personally, but even just maybe speaking for our movement and the Global Methodist Church at large, you are not, I love the way you just kind of shared that story. You are not alone in the formation that the Lord has moved through teams of men and women. but that you have been part of that in a very integral way. And so as a pastor here in Arlington, Texas, I say thank you for your obedience because it laid the road for a guy like me to be obedient to the Lord and the calling He's put on my life. as we look at all that, I think you've said everything just beautifully. You even answered questions that I hadn't asked yet about the process and how the Lord kind of spoke and how this thing came about. I am curious, was looking over the last two years and longer, but this last period is what has been the most surprising thing to you or what has been a moment that has kind of caught you off guard as the Lord has been at work in our church? Jeff Greenway: That's a great question. First of all, me just say one more thing about the founding. Jason Nix: Yeah, yes sir. Jeff Greenway: It's astonishing to me what God did with thousands of volunteer hours and like five staff. You know, when we formed the WCA, publicly launched it in Chicago in 2016, I coined the phrase, we're building this plane while we're flying it. When we founded the Allegheny West Conference, I said, we're still installing essential systems as we're landing it and we're building the runway too. I mean, there was danger on all sides. It could have easily gone off the rails, but that's evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit in this thing. Is that there was no limit to what God would do if people would not care who got credit for things. And the surfacing of gifts, profound gifts that has occurred. has been amazing. I think that I've always known that this was a spirit-breathed movement. I've always known that this could not happen apart from the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, but there's not a gathering of Louisville Methodists that I've been a part of that I've not experienced the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. That's part of being a movement, right? We are totally dependent on anything that happens that God shows up. and that God is guiding us and that the Spirit is filling us and using us and changing us. And so that's been a pleasant surprise. I thought that there'd be no other place like Allegheny West because our first annual conference was off the hook, crazy and amazing. And Jason Nix: Yeah. Yeah. Jeff Greenway: then I was guest preacher at some founding conferences, some convening conferences, and I said, wow, this is happening here too. Jason Nix: Yeah. Jeff Greenway: got to Costa Rica and my prayer was may the same spirit be in the room as Costa Rica as I've experienced these other places and it was like tenfold what I had experienced in other places and that continues to be the case whether it's a small annual conference of 30 churches like in Thailand or if it's 500, 600 churches like in Allegheny West or if it's you know anything in between when we gather business is not even secondary it's you know The conferences that I'm a part of, it's to inspire and instruct and to celebrate and ordain and then do the things we have to do to check the boxes so we can go to next year. But it's, it's what conference was intended to be when Wesley used to get the preachers together. It was what the Christmas conference was when they gathered in Baltimore in 1784. It was for instruction and sound doctrine Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: and to check on the state of people's soul. That's remarkable. Now another surprise to me has been the gravitational pull in some places in the church to return to what the episcopacy looked like and I will tell you that that has largely not happened in the assembly of bishops, but Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: it has happened in places in the church that have arrived a little bit later. and they still think that they're in 2000 and not 2026. And so it's taken a lot of discipline on the part of the bishops to stay in our lane. I'll give you an example. I had not been a bishop of one of my areas for two weeks before I got letters trying to go around the conference superintendent to get me to pull Trump to Jason Nix: Yeah. Yeah. Jeff Greenway: order something to happen. That's not my job. So my standard operating procedure is I respond to the person thanking them for their inquiry, but this is really a conference superintendent matter. I copy the conference superintendent and say, I expect to hear from both of you about how this has been resolved. So I keep myself out of that triangle and stay on my task of preaching, teaching, guarding, defending the faith, know, Jason Nix: Yes, Jeff Greenway: setting appointments, presiding. That's my job in this role. But there's a lot of gravitational pull to return to Egypt and it's going to take a lot of discipline by the next assembly to stay in Canaan. Jason Nix: Yes. Jeff Greenway: And it's going to take discipline. Now, we've done a great job this last 18, 19 months of putting foundational DNA and building culture. But you know, as many as half of the assembly is going to be new, and they've not been in the room doing that. So there's some work to be done between election and when they start. But at the end of the day, they're going to have to own it again. And they will have to set the boundary because the gravitational pull from places in the church is really strong. Jason Nix: 100%. I'm reminded of just as you shared that story, the 242 conference, which is for young clergy leaders. The first one was at Lake Junaluska in the Carolinas. And it was the last one that I could attend because I was 40 and the next year I would have aged out. So I made sure to go. But in one of the panels, Bishop Jones and Bishop Webb were there. And I asked the question because they said, what do need from us? What you know, what we're here, like bring your concerns. I said, how do we know that we don't fall off the rails and head back to the only thing we know, which we know the Lord is calling us out of? How do we protect that? How are you guys protecting that? And they kind of looked at each other and said, that's on y'all. Y'all are the ones who are gonna be carrying the torch. So if... If staying faithful to the mission and the identity and the DNA that the Lord has given us as global Methodists, that's going to be your responsibility in the generations to come. And it was this really, and you talked about just passing the baton, know, releasing power in a season from generation to generation so that the faith delivered to us gets delivered from us. And Jeff Greenway: Yep. Jason Nix: it was just such a beautiful picture of that. But bouncing forward and looking ahead, just on a personal note, what does the next season look like? What do the rhythms look like? What are your hobbies? Are you looking forward to getting in a river somewhere with a fishing rod? Tell us what the next season looks like for you. Hey, yeah. Jeff Greenway: Well, I love the fly fish and I've not gotten to do that as much as I would like to. I'm planning about a five-day fly fishing trip to a secluded piece of private water that a friend of mine and I have access to in November. That's part Jason Nix: Nice. Jeff Greenway: of what... My last trip as a bishop, I'll be going to the Korean Methodist Church's General Conference to sign our memorandum of understanding on behalf of the Assembly. And Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jeff Greenway: I will leave in October, but I won't get back until November 4th. Now they've promised me they'll pay for my flight back, you know, so I'll be able to get back. Jason Nix: Good, good. Jeff Greenway: But I think within a week I'll be knee deep in a trout stream. Jason Nix: Come on. Jeff Greenway: I try to go fly fishing two, three times a year, and I didn't get there this spring because it's just been very busy. actually that's a question that my kids and my wife are asking Jason Nix: sure Jeff Greenway: me right now because Jason Nix: yeah Jeff Greenway: you know I've been I've been going at this for a long time. Jason Nix: soon. Jeff Greenway: So I think I'm gonna take two three months and I'm not gonna do anything. I'm just gonna be. I, during the last five years, have redrafted 15 of Wesley's 44 standard sermons and Jason Nix: Mmm. Jeff Greenway: I've made them accessible. You Wesley was a biblical theologian and he would get a 55 point sermon out of one phrase in one piece of the Bible. And, and so what Jason Nix: I know, yeah. Jeff Greenway: I'm doing is I'm, working with the sermons, but I'm an expository preacher. So Jason Nix: Yes, sir. Jeff Greenway: I'm trying to find biblical narratives that make the same point. Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: And I'm using Wesley as well as an expository style to capture the essence of the sermons. And 15 of them are done and they're ready for publication. I think I'm going to spend my first year and finish that out and see if anybody wants to publish it. And I've been preaching those sermons around. that's been fun. Jason Nix: Well, I want to read it because I've said for a very, long time, I'm so grateful for John Wesley and his obedience to the Lord and everything that the Lord did through him. But if you're going to sit down and read one of his sermons, you're going to need about four different dictionaries and a couple of different commentaries because it is beautiful and it still rings in your heart. But there are multiple times that your brain is saying, what does that mean? Yeah. Jeff Greenway: Well, and if you preach a sermon, it's going to be two hours long. mean, it's just, so, so boiling it down to something that will Jason Nix: That's great. Jeff Greenway: fit within 25 to 30 minutes is the goal. So that's one thing. I've had a lot of people say, oh, you're going to have all kinds of opportunities. The one should be Bishop here. I've not had any of that. don't necessarily anticipate much of that because honestly, Jason, I've never been the person that gets called to be like the platform preacher or the guest, whatever. I've been too busy serving my churches Jason Nix: Yeah. Jeff Greenway: and doing this other stuff. I'm going to, the other pieces is that my mother is 89 years old. I'm the primary person responsible for her. She's just had a health crisis. There will be more crises to come. But at some point we're going to move to be closer to one of our kids because our last child that lives near us is moving to Toledo, Ohio, probably this summer. And we're not going to move. the Toledo with all deference to Toledo. It's a wonderful town, but I grew up in Erie, Pennsylvania. Jason Nix: Not say anything bad. Jeff Greenway: I know what snow measured in feet, not inches looks like, and I'm done shoveling that kind of snow. we're going to find out where we're going to go and get involved in a church, be supportive of a pastor, and maybe teach a Bible study, you know. And then if the assembly has need for a Bishop Emeritus to come and help if somebody can't cover an annual conference or Jason Nix: Yes, sir. Jeff Greenway: if there's a task force that needs to be worked on or a zoom call that I can jump on. I'll be glad to do that, but I'll also be glad to have it on my terms. Jason Nix: Absolutely, absolutely. You don't happen to have any kids in North Texas, do you? Okay, well, it was worth a shot because I was like, come on down here. We'd love to have you. All right. Jeff Greenway: I don't, I don't. Yeah, we've got a kid in Pennsylvania, a kid in Ohio and a kid in Kentucky, so. Jason Nix: I love it. love it. So two more questions. this question, so similarly to what are the rhythms personally, and thank you for sharing just kind of what that process looks like for you. But maybe, and let's look beyond Johannesburg, even though we can include Johannesburg. But as you are, again, just being obedient to the Lord, serving and being part of just this beautiful thing that the Lord is doing. What is some words of encouragement or words of warning? And again, you can get, you can get pretty crazy with any words of warning because you're not, you're not standing for a reelection. So, Jeff Greenway: Yeah. Jason Nix: no, I'm just, just, I would love to hear just from, from what the Lord has been doing in and through and around you and what you have seen in our church. What are some words of encouragement or words of warning that you would have for Lady and clergy alike as we move forward? Jeff Greenway: That's another really good question. So I'm working on my last teaching time as a bishop and as a conference superintendent. And the title of my last talk is Just Some Thoughts Before I Go. And I'm not going to give all of those to you. You'll be able to find them on various conference websites later. But the one that sparked the need to do this is... We are in this wonderful period of time right now where we're movemental. And movements are messy. And movements color outside lines. And movements have moments of ambiguity. And my word of encouragement is to don't be in such a hurry to lock everything down. Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: Because the minute we lock something down, we institutionalize it. nothing will kill a movement more than institutionalizing something. And one of the things I've learned over the years is that institutions exist to protect themselves. And once an institution feels it's threatened in some way, it'll break its own ethos to protect itself. We just saw that happen in our former tribe, right? So, Jason Nix: 100 % yes. Jeff Greenway: for example, I was converted in 1973. It was in the middle of the Jesus revolution, the Jesus people movement, the charismatic renewal movement was going Jason Nix: Yes, Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: on there. There was more charismatic than charismatic at that time, but you get the feel. And Jason Nix: Yeah, yeah. Jeff Greenway: I was not converted by Jesus people, but I was discipled by them. And there's a whole generation of us that are in our 60s and 70s and that's how we came to faith. And we came into the church with this idealism that we could be a part of this movement to renew the church. And we smack dab face forward into an institution that sucked the life of that movement out of many of us. And now I happen to believe that the North American church has been living on the fumes of that Jesus revolution from the early 70s for 50 years. But God is doing it again. Jason Nix: Yeah. Jeff Greenway: And he's doing it among young people. Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: And I know Mid-Texas has a huge young people movement going on. Allegheny West just had 450 students at a winter retreat Jason Nix: Yeah. Jeff Greenway: in which, actually, Will Gregory was the speaker there. He did a great job with our people, with our students. 19-year-old speaker at a youth event for an entire weekend. And an example of that is here in Columbus, Ohio, where I live, Ohio State. You know, I'm not an Ohio State football fan, but their football team has done an open call on campus every semester for the last two years. They've rented a PA system. They've stood up and given their testimonies and hundreds of students have accepted Jesus and been Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: baptized in the lake in the center of the Ohio State campus. And the first time I heard that, my first thought was, well, who baptized them? Jason Nix: Yeah. Jeff Greenway: That's the wrong question. That's an institutional question. Jason Nix: That's the wrong question. Yeah. Jeff Greenway: And a movement question is how do we tap into that? And so I'm telling people all around me, listen, do everything you can do to foster this movement that's happening all around us, but do not try to control it. Jason Nix: Hmm. Jeff Greenway: Water it, feed it, nurture it, encourage it, and pray God that some of that splashes off on the rest of us. Because we're movemental right now and not institutional, we have a chance of having a generation do what my generation didn't get a shot to do. Jason Nix: Yeah. Yeah. Jeff Greenway: And so I just, you know, so for example, we're coming to general conference. There's all kinds of legislation about locking stuff down, you know, and codifying everything. I hope we come out of general conference with a thinner book of doctrines and disciplines. I hope we come out of general conference holier than we arrived. I hope we come out of general conference understanding that we're a part of a movement of the spirit that if we try to control it, it will kill it. So my big word of advice here is be comfortable with ambiguity. And the messiness of the movement is a sign of life. And once everything kind of gets codified and put in place, it's a whole lot harder to jumpstart something then than it is to ride it now. Jason Nix: Absolutely. Jeff Greenway: The other piece I would say is to... concerned, well I'm always concerned that we stay tapped into the Spirit, but just a word to the pastors who are listening to this. We have 50 years of pastoral leadership that's been trained to preach using moral therapeutic deism. Moral meaning that God wants us to be good, therapeutic that God wants us to be happy, and deism that God is some detached entity out here that really put things in motion but doesn't care about the way we live. Listen, God doesn't want us to be good. He wants us to be holy. And God doesn't want us to be happy. He wants us experience joy and the other fruit of the Spirit. And God is not detached. He became one of us to save all of us. And we know that. We know that. But we don't always preach that. And I think there needs to be a reframing of what preaching looks like in our movement. Jason Nix: Mmm. Jeff Greenway: and that will come from those who are younger than us. Jason Nix: Yeah, the ones that will ask the questions that some of us are a little too afraid to ask and actually go seek an answer. Jeff Greenway: Yeah. Jason Nix: How do we do this different? Yeah. Jeff Greenway: Yeah, and the third piece of advice is don't be afraid of questions. know, don't be. Some of my greatest learning experiences have come by asking the right questions. Jason Nix: Sir. Jeff Greenway: And sometimes they're in there. I'm known for being the one who's not afraid to ask an indelicate question. You know, because sometimes you just have to name the elephant in the room and. you know, chase it. so, you know, there are other things I could say. But, you know, I'm standing on tiptoe, ready to see what the next assembly is and how they do. I'm standing on tiptoe watching to see what happens in Johannesburg. You know, I'm not as anxious as some of my colleague bishops are, because they're standing for election. I'm not as anxious as some of the nominees are. And here's the thing I would say to all of them. Our worth is not determined by whatever office we hold. Our worth was determined on a Roman cross outside of Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. And if we really believe Wesley's covenant prayer, we will be good at the end of Johannesburg. Yeah. Jason Nix: Yes. That's so good. All right. Last question. I promise. I've done this a little bit, Bishop Greenway. you are so easy to talk to because you just, I love the way you just put your thoughts. It's it's as a podcast host. This has been a blast. So here's my final question. we want to always at across the globe. want to always emphasize and lift up the local church. We believe in practice that this is a movement that is founded, grounded, and fueled through the local church up through the rest of the global body. So do you have a story, either from your conference, from your local church, a story of transformation, something that God has done, a way that he's been moving that you could share with the rest of the body? outside of the 30 stories you've already shared in this conversation. Jeff Greenway: So as you know, I've had two full-time gigs going on. the gig has either been in my local church or building a denomination or it's been as a conference superintendent and leading a denomination, right, as a bishop. So let me just share. When I went to Reynoldsburg 20 years ago, I was beaten, battered, and bruised because I had left Asbury Seminary. It wasn't my idea to leave Asbury when I left, but I did. And I followed three pretty high profile moral failures among lay and clergy leadership in that church within 18 months when I got there. So when we arrived, we were all hurting. I sometimes joke that, you know how porcupines make love? It's very carefully. That's how we approached our ministry. But I remember, I don't know how to preach anything other than... Jesus Christ and Him crucified and the whole of the Wesleyan message. And I can remember after my first Easter, the person who was the chair of the board at the time came to me and said, you really believe this stuff, don't you? And I said, believe in it. I'm counting on it. And to watch, and I could, there are other churches this has happened. To watch that church go from being a mile wide and an inch deep to be really deep. To have 18 people called to ministry out of that church in 18 years. To see it develop a global mission understanding and to be able to transfer that to my executive pastor seamlessly, know, almost 24 months ago, has been, was a gift. And then, you know, let me share an international story with you that is a word of hope. I'm the Bishop of Thailand and somebody else is going to have that privilege next year. But one of things I love about Thailand is the DNA of multiplication. You cannot be ordained a deacon in Thailand unless you've planted a church. Jason Nix: Come on. Jeff Greenway: And you cannot be ordained an elder unless that church has planted a church. Can you imagine the human cry in the clergy session of your conference or my conference if we would make that a criteria for ordination? Jason Nix: Well, as an ordained deacon and a church of a church plant, I say yes and amen. Jeff Greenway: So that's it, but that is now a posture that's been adopted by the Philippines. Jason Nix: Yes, sir. Jeff Greenway: I think that you're going to see more of that. And our movement is, the future of our movement is not found in the 7,000 churches we have now. We have to plant about 3 % new churches a year just to stay up with the atrophy and death of existing churches that have gone through their life cycle. So, Allegheny West, I started in Western Pennsylvania, I finished in West Ohio. In my entire 37 and a half years as a United Methodist pastor, the annual conferences I was a part of started two churches. Jason Nix: Hmm. Jeff Greenway: We've planted 20 churches. Jason Nix: Come on. Jeff Greenway: You know, and now we need to plant about 17, you know, we need to plant more than that. But, but the fact that that is happening is, you know, that's exciting for me. And, and, it's churches that will plant churches. It's not, it's not a bishop casting division. It's not a conference superintendent announcing it over time. It's pockets of churches coming together and saying, we need a church here. Or a church that buys into multiplication and budgets itself that you know what, instead of becoming a member church, we're going to plant four churches and we're going to send 200 people to the next zip code and say sick them. That's the future. Now and some people say well that's just really radical. No it's not. That's how Methodism spread in America in the 1830s and 40s and 50s. mean, you know, the church I served for 18 years was started 192 years ago as one of 30 preaching points on the Pickerington circuit in Pickerington, Ohio. And it had eight people meeting in the livery stable of a blacksmith shop. And today, you know, 192 years. Eight buildings later, it is what it is, Jason Nix: Yep. Yep. Jeff Greenway: but it's only been recently that we thought about, we need to plant churches. Because we were so institutionally, once we did away with class meetings and band meetings and became Sunday school driven, and once we became institutionally locked into property, Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: we lost something really vital. So there are pockets of the church that are showing us what the future looks like. I hope we'll listen to them. Jason Nix: If you allow me two seconds of personal privilege as a local pastor who early in this process and As the Lord has called me in in to Resurrection global Methodist Church in Arlington, Texas where I serve we're a church plant And I just I told him in my interview with the with the board I just said if you need if you need a pastor to come in to try to help you become the next megachurch in Arlington I'm just not your guy. I believe just 400 implant is kind of our unofficial motto that 400 implant and you make your financial decisions and your staffing decisions and the DNA ethos of your church. You make those decisions as a church that is seeking to be for a church of 400. Jeff Greenway: Yeah. Exponential has impacted you, hasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. It's good stuff. Jason Nix: It's been, yeah, absolutely it has. Absolutely. So. Jeff Greenway: We have, and here's the thing, there are people outside of our tribe that are quoting Wesleyan, using Wesleyan methods more than we have for a hundred years. Jason Nix: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Jeff Greenway: And we have all the tools, we have the message. I happen to believe that this time in the world, A Wesleyan message is the most attractive expression of Christian faith that can be offered. But we have to live it. We have to live Jason Nix: Absolutely. Jeff Greenway: it. Jason Nix: Well, Bishop Greenway, I've taken, I could sit here for another two hours, but thank you so much for your transparency, for your authenticity. Thank you so much for just your obedience to the Lord that has brought us to this point. So the future belongs to the Lord and we're going to trust him with all of the things that are going to be taking place in the next weeks and months. But in this moment, just thank you so much for what you have allowed the Lord to do in and through you. And we are a better movement because of what you have been obedient to the Lord and what you have spoken into the life of our church. And so I hope that the listeners have just gotten just another glimpse, another piece, another reminder of who we are as global Methodists, what God is doing around the world, what is taking place across multiple frameworks and cultures and in context. I want to just stop there and I'll give you the final word and then we'll close out this conversation. Jeff Greenway: Hey, my final word to the church is look forward. The Jason Nix: Yes, sir. Jeff Greenway: answer is not behind us. The answer is forward. And guard yourself from fighting the last battle. Jason Nix: Mmm. Jeff Greenway: That one's been done. Move Jason Nix: Mm-hmm. Jeff Greenway: forward. God bless you, folks. Jason Nix: Amen.