Matt: Thank you so much for joining us again on the PS Podcast. Really excited to be looking at another week in our Vision Series. Wes, welcome. Thank you for your lesson on Sunday. Can you kind of give us a little recap of what we talked about?

Wes McAdams: After a sermon is over, have you ever wanted to make a comment, ask a question, or listen to the preacher say more about a particular idea? If so, this podcast is for you. My name is Wes McAdams, and I'll be sitting down with one of my fellow McDermott Road ministers to discuss comments, questions, and thoughts that have come up after the sermon is over. Welcome to P.S., the Post-Sermon Podcast. Thanks so much for listening to P.S., the Post Sermon Podcast. To find out more about this podcast or about the Church of Christ on McDermott Road, you can visit our website at ccmcdermott.org slash P.S. If this has been an encouragement to you, we also hope you will rate and review the show wherever you're listening, as well as share it with a friend. Because we believe sermons are not just for Sunday, but for our whole week and our whole life. Yeah, so we have been talking about the idea that our mission, both at McDermott Road and I think for all Christians everywhere, is to help people become more like Jesus. And we really tackled the idea of we all have a responsibility to help the church accomplish that mission, that we all are participants in helping people become more like Jesus, both in ourselves becoming more like Jesus, but also in helping other people. become more like Jesus. So we looked at Romans chapter 12 and we talked about offering our body as a living sacrifice and how we are all part of the body of Christ and we all have different gifts from God to help us contribute to the greater good and the well-being and the functioning, the accomplishing of our mission of the entire church.

Matt: And so when you think about that, you you've been talking about mission and vision for several weeks now. What are you hoping is the benefit of having taken the time to go through our mission and our vision with the church?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, I hope that people recognize that everything we do should serve that purpose. And I hope that that makes all of us from the elders to the ministry staff to all of our staff to every single member. I hope that it helps us to examine all of our ministries that we do sort of as a congregation, the congregational ministries and the personal ministries that we all have. throughout our week. I hope it helps us to examine everything and say, you know, am I becoming more like Jesus? Is my life looking more like Jesus today than it was a year ago or than it was five years ago? And then I hope that it helps all of us to say, if not, then how can I become more like Jesus? And how should I think about the things that we do? the singing that we do, the taking of the Lord's Supper that we do, the prayers that we offer, how can I think of all of those things as helping me be transformed by the renewing of my mind? Is my mind being renewed? And am I participating in that? So everything that we've talked about in this series from the condition of our heart through the metaphor that Jesus gives of the various types of soil, to what we talked about yesterday in looking at our own role and responsibility. I just hope that we all are looking at ourselves and asking, am I being changed the way I should be changed? Am I being transformed the way I should be transformed? Am I participating in what God wants to do in me and what God wants to do in all of us as a church?

Matt: I love the word responsibility that you talked about yesterday. I think sometimes we, whether we are intentional about it or not, we can view the church as just another voluntary part of our life. But when we think about it being a responsibility, how do you think that changes the way we approach our involvement in church?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's so easy to be a consumer and I hate to use that word, but, everything, nearly everything else in our life, we consume and we just ask, well, what can this organization or this company do for me? And, and even things that like clubs that we join, like you said, a voluntary association. Like we, we think of it in those terms, like what are the benefits to me rather than. what is my responsibility here? I've already in many ways, I've already received the benefits of being part of the church in being saved. Like Jesus has already given me the benefits and there obviously are so many more benefits to being part of the church that come on an ongoing basis. I can't even imagine where my life would be if not for the church. But I think constantly about JFK's quote about the country, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. And I think about that in terms of the church. Ask not what the church could do for you, but rather ask what you can do for the church. And I wonder if we think about it that way. Like, I want to serve and I hear from so many Christians that do have that perspective that say, I want to do more. I want to help. I want to serve. I don't just want to be a spectator. I want to be a participant. want to, I want to be actively involved and I want to be in a church where I can be. actively involved. The Christians that sort of fall into the other category of, actually I just kind of want to sit on a pew and show up once a week, they never say that out loud. We're not explicit about that, but we just sort of fall into that habit ⁓ maybe because it's not being challenged and we have to challenge that to say Jesus doesn't save us in order to be pew potatoes. He saves us to be active and to be serving. And we really do have a responsibility because if we're not playing our role, if I'm not playing my role, then other people are missing out on whatever it was that Jesus intended for me to bring to the table. And if someone else isn't playing their role, then we are missing out on whatever it is that Jesus gave them to bring to the table. It's just like in a body, if my thumb, suddenly stops working and stops doing its job, then the rest of my body suffers. Then it's not benefiting from what that thumb was supposed to bring to the table. And that's the way it is in the body. You can think, well, you know, nobody's going to miss me. And, you know, what I can contribute is no big deal, but it is a big deal. And it's not really your place to say, I really don't have to do these things. The rest of us are suffering. when any Christian doesn't bring all of what God has given them to the table and say, I want to be a part of what God is calling the church to be and do.

Matt: So I totally agree with that. mean, how do you think we actually foster that vision? We talk about it. We've provided this vision series. But you mentioned the renewing of our mind, the renewing of our hearts, the commitment of our bodies. As someone who's trying to do those things, are there spiritual practices that you think can help me as a church member be more proactive in those things when I do come to the community life of the church, if that makes sense.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, I think different people probably are motivated and inspired and encouraged and empowered in various ways. For me, and I think the way the New Testament is written is that when we allow the gospel to really sink deep into our hearts, and this is why Paul, I think, writes Romans the way that he does and Ephesians the way that he does, is he starts off with these theological truths of who God is and what God has done. And then that moves us and motivates us and the love and the desire to serve is just overflowing in our hearts. And we just say, okay, well, what can I do? how can I respond to God's love with? my own faithful loyalty. What can I do for him because of what he's done for me? And I think that's exactly the transition that we're seeing in Romans chapter 12. But I think that's what we have to do as the church also. Like we can't guilt people into service. We can't just twist their arm and be like, hey, we need you guys. We need you guys. We need you guys. I am always against service by compulsion. Just as Paul says, God loves a cheerful giver and he doesn't want us giving financially out of compulsion. He also doesn't want us serving out of compulsion. And I always just feel like if you have to trick people into serving, if you have to twist their arms into serving, I really don't want that kind of service. Like we're not interested in that. So like if we can only man the ministries that we have ⁓ by those sorts of underhanded means. then I feel like, then we shouldn't even offer those ministries. If that's the only way that we can find volunteers to do these things is by sort of tricking people or manipulating people or compelling them into service, then let's just not do those ministries. Let's only do the ministries as a congregation that we can find people that are just, they can't help it. They have to find some way to serve. And so we say, yes, if your heart is just. bursting with a desire to serve the Lord who has served you and who has blessed you and has saved you, then here's an opportunity to do that. So I think that we have to, in order to get people to that point, we just have to keep pouring into them the love of Christ. And eventually, when their heart is soft and when it's good soil and when that seed sinks deeply into them, and sometimes that takes a long time for that transformation to happen. People can be churchgoers for decades before They really are transformed by the love of Christ and their heart is, and their mind is renewed and they are sanctified in a whole new way. And they recognize, wow, I never knew what God did for me. I have to do more for his people and for the world to reach out to them because of what Jesus has done for me. So I just think we pour into the cup until it's overflowing.

Matt: I think that's great. Now let's build on that a little bit. Let's say you're someone who has started to notice that transformation happening that's moved in their heart from compulsion to desire, but maybe that's a new feeling for the first time. And they're like, hey, I've never really participated. used my gifts, how would you encourage them to, I mean, I can assume that that would be kind of a fearful place in some ways, like I want to, but I've never done it. Like how might you encourage them to take the leap?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, that's a great question. Jesus tells the story, this parable about these different servants that are given different amounts of money, and the first two, they do what might seem risky. I think to the third guy, it does seem risky. Like, they go out and they use the master's money. And the third guy's like, wow, I only have one, but I'm just going to bury it because I'm afraid that I'm going to misuse it or I'm afraid that he's going to come back and he's going to demand that I give him his money back. And so I don't want to lose this. And so I'm going to bury it so that I don't lose it. And he's the only one who's punished. The other two went out and leveraged what they were given so that they could earn more. And they had more to offer the master when he came back. And I think that that applies to us in that just do something and that the only way you're going to fail is by doing nothing. And so whatever it is, find a way, like just go find something to do. Start small, look at other people and say, how are they serving? And what could I do? I can't do exactly what they're doing, but what if I did this? I think so many times, like we don't know how to serve because... our world, our life is so filled with noise. I think that if we just slowed down, take a walk, ride a bike and look around at your neighborhood, look around at people in your life and say, what do people need? How can I help them? How can I serve them? There may be like somebody with a ⁓ flashing sign at church that says, hey, we need volunteers, do this. But sometimes there's not a flashing sign. Sometimes nobody is. is trying to flag us down and say, do this thing. You just have to, you just have to pay attention. And that means turn off the podcast, which is ironic because we're recording a podcast, right? Exactly. Yeah. Just drive in silence for half an hour and think about your neighborhood. Think about your community. Think about the, if your kids are at school, think about people that are also in that school system and think, how can I serve them? What is something I can do?

Matt: Shut us off, shut us off now.

Wes McAdams: for other people because of what Jesus has done for me. Don't think about, well, will this be effective at bringing them to Christ? You don't have to worry about any of that. You don't have to worry about the results. The Lord will take care of the results. You just faithfully serve. Whatever it is that you can do and whatever need that you see that you can help meet, just do that and do it in the name of the Lord. Let them know that you're doing that not because you want anything from them, but because of what you've already received from the Lord. Like, find a way to say something along those lines, bring glory to the Lord and serve people in some way. So, yeah, follow other people's example, look around at what other people are doing or what they're asking you to do, but also just be creative and just look around and see what needs to be done.

Matt: sure and I definitely don't want to over dissect the parable that you use. don't want to take it out of context but in the idea of serving and the idea of responsibility you know sometimes we have the other person involved at our church too who is serving and you know is risking it and the parable says that they'll be given more right and so ⁓ you know we also hear a lot about what is you know How do you take care of your own health as you're serving or or if you're in a body? You know, is there such thing as doing too much to not allow other people to serve or what do you think about the other side of the proverbial coin there?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, I think a lot of times we burn out because our motivation isn't what it's supposed to be. Like sometimes I think we're trying to, you know, I don't know, there there's all kinds of bad motivations for serving. And I know I've fallen into those categories before and like, well, I guess nobody else is going to do it. And so I guess I have to do it. And we do it out of bitterness and we do it because we feel compelled to do it or we do it like hoping that other people will recognize us. sort of a ⁓ martyr complex sort of thing and all of those things can be super unhealthy and they lead to being burned out because we're just frustrated. And so we really should serve out of joy. We should serve out of a joy for what God has done for us. And sometimes that means slowing down and it means sort of re-examining what am I doing and how am I doing it. And if we've lost the joy in the service, then sometimes that means Take a Sabbath, like God built into every single week an opportunity for his people to rest and to just be secure in what God has done and what God is doing and the promises that God has made about what he will do and trust him. And that was one of the beautiful things about the Sabbath that, yes, we're not under the law of Moses anymore, so you don't have to take a Sabbath, but it's probably pretty wise to take a Sabbath. to remind yourself that if you stop juggling the balls, it doesn't mean that everything's going to fall apart. You and your little plate spinning on the little poles, you are not keeping the world going around. And I need that reminder. I need the reminder that Wes, it isn't you, it isn't your work, it isn't your effort that keeps the world going around. It's the Lord. He's got this. Yes, it's good for you to serve. You have a responsibility to serve. You should work really hard, but it's not you that's keeping everything in motion. It's the Lord. And so just stop and rest and wait and watch. He'll make sure everything is okay. It's okay to take a break. It's not all dependent on you. And I think sometimes that's a really healthy and good reminder for us as well. And then once we've taken that break, then we could see, yes, God, you have blessed me and you've taken care of me. Now I have even more joy that I want to serve out of.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, I think that's really true. And I mean, you mentioned on Sunday just, you anytime you're serving, anytime you're putting yourself out there, there's some insecurity that comes with it. There's some, you know, introspection about motives. There's some, you know, tension that you feel within yourself anytime you work with a team or anytime you're a part of a group and you see other people's talents and gifts and and you know, I mean we noticed that you know working in full-time ministry. I mean I've had the opportunity of replacing myself several times in youth ministry and you know it's it was interesting seeing people that did it in different ways with different approaches and different talents and you know it can put you in some weird feelings. Like how do you manage some of that tension of we are flawed vessels serving flawed people to the glory of God? Like how do you think about that?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, that's a good question because we I'm I'm kind of addicted to things about productivity and efficiency and and which all implies that I know how this thing should work the best like it it would work best if everybody did this thing in this way and they only Participated according to this system, but that's not the way the body functions and we have to trust the lord that if Everyone is working hard and as we said on sunday if in any form of faithful service, like if they are offering themselves in any form of faithful service, that God somehow takes all of that, which might look like chaos to us, it might look like a mess to us, like how could this person who's baking cookies for people and this person who's fixing cars for people and this person who's teaching Bible classes and this person who's knocking on doors and this person who's whatever, how could God take all of that and bring it together so that it's working together in a comprehensive unity towards the end that he desires. We just have to trust that he is like he is bringing all of that together and bringing it together for good and that he is accomplishing his mission through all of these various forms of faithful service. And we just have to trust that. And we have to trust that some people might be able to do things and you look at them and say, wow, that is amazing. And I'm sort of jealous of the way that they are able to function and what they're able to offer the Lord. And other people, we might look at them and say, wow, you're not doing anything or what you're doing isn't really important or significant. We have to stop on both ends of that and just do what you can do well and trust that God is. taking all of it and bringing it together and the results are going to be amazing and we won't see the results until the age to come, until the resurrection. And in the resurrection, we will see how everything was contributing together towards the whole. And I have to remind myself of that when I'm disdaining my brother or my sister and saying, man, why don't you get busy? Why don't you do what I'm doing? Or when I look at my brother and I'm jealous and I'm like, wow, I said this on Sunday that the way he preaches, the jokes he tells, the way that he does, you know, he's a quote unquote better preacher than me. I have to stop feeling jealous. I have to be so thankful that there are guys doing what I can't do and doing it in a way that I can't do it. I need to do what I'm called to do and be who I'm called to be and let the rest of the body be who they're called to be. And if we genuinely are serving the Lord in faith, the Lord is going to bring it. all together and work it all together towards his goals.

Matt: For sure. There's an idea that I read a while back that I kept thinking of when you were talking on Sunday. And I know it's been the case for me, but it's just the quip that comparison creates a fragile soul. And I don't like to think of myself as fragile, but it's true. are. It doesn't take a lot to throw us into a mindset that

Wes McAdams: Mmm. I love that.

Matt: isn't what we intend or you know even a place of if we were in our best you know health or our best motives or whatever I think we would be able to recognize like hey that person is doing those things for the glory of God and we would celebrate that sometimes if we get too worn down and we get too insecure or we get to just you know spread then immediately you know that mindset can can change really quickly. ⁓ for sure.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, it's amazing how often we will criticize because we've compared and in the back of our mind, we're really jealous of them. And because we're jealous of them, we have to find ways to cut them down and to say, wow, you know, I don't like the way they do this. And I don't like the way they do that. And really it's just, as you said, it's our own insecurity. It's our own jealousy. It's the own, it's our own fragility of our soul. I love that idea. I like the saying too that comparison is the thief of joy. And it does, it steals joy from us. And we really would be so much better if we looked and said, wow, I could never do what they do, but I'm so glad that they're doing it because it's making my father even more famous. It is bringing glory to my Lord and my master Jesus. I am so thankful that they're doing what they're doing. Even though I can't do that, I'm going to go do my thing with the same enthusiasm and the same zeal that they're doing their thing.

Matt: You used that word there, famous, and you used that word on Sunday as well. Is that a way in which you're trying to make the term glory more approachable? Or I feel like famous is a word that I think we should use more in church, but it's one that maybe we don't use a lot. What are you going with with the word famous there?

Wes McAdams: I just wrapped up a class on Wednesday night about, let's see, what was it called? Why the Gospel by Matthew Bates. We just finished studying Why the Gospel. And a lot of what he talks about in that book is about glory, that Jesus died, that God sent his... son to become human and die for humanity and then be our king and reign over us in order to not only bring glory to the father but restore the glory of humanity. And he uses that word famous a lot in that book. And it's not always my favorite word to use in place of glory. I think there's times where that's an appropriate comparison and sometimes where it's not because famous has all kinds of different connotations than necessarily our intended by the word glory, but yeah, I think that sometimes that's exactly what we need to be talking about, that yes, I want my Father to be even more famous. I want people to revere Him. This is what Jesus prayed in the model prayer, the Lord's Prayer, that we want His name to be hallowed. We want the whole world to hallow the name of Yahweh. We want Yahweh's name to be known. We want the Father to be known by the world. And anybody who is making our Father even more famous, who is making Him even more well-known, who is bringing glory to His name, we ought to celebrate whatever it is that they're doing. If they're doing it faithfully to glorify our Father, why wouldn't we want that? If we were a son and someone was doing that for our dad, wouldn't we love that? mean, one of the things that I love about being in ministry is seeing what happens at a memorial service or at a funeral when someone's name is spoken well of and they're able to look back on their life and say, they did this and they did this and wasn't it so wonderful that they did that. And it means so much to a family when someone could stand up and bring glory to their loved one. Like, why would we not want that? If somebody was bragging on my dad, if somebody was celebrating who my dad is and what my dad has done, I would be so thankful that they were doing that. Why wouldn't we do that with our Father in heaven? If somebody is making our Father's name even more widespread, why wouldn't we say, thank you for doing what you're doing for my father? Because my father is your father and that makes us siblings and I'm so thankful for the work that you're doing.

Matt: This is kind of an aside from what we were talking about, but with what you brought up, I think something that you have brought out, especially in our staff conversations or whatever, that you think there's something being lost by people not going to funerals and not maybe recognizing their spiritual value. Do you mind talking to that just a second? Because I do think it's really important.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, and I think there's relevance to the conversation that we're having right now that being there for one another, supporting one another, especially through times of grief is so important. Don't let your brothers and sisters go through those moments alone. Even if you barely know them, show up for funerals, not only for the sake of the family, but for your own sake. Like you are going to gain so much. You're going to learn so much about a life that maybe you didn't even know that person. Maybe you just barely know their family, but you will gain so much about who they are, where they came from, and how God used them, and how God worked in their lives. Like all of that is going to be so valuable to you, especially from the perspective of examining your own mortality. to say, someday this is gonna be me and I'm going to be in that box or I'm going to be in that urn. What do I want people to say about me? What kind of life will I want to have lived? And am I living that life right now? We need to examine our own mortality. We need to be there for one another. So yeah, it's really fallen out of style to go to funerals, but I really think there is an extreme amount of importance to that.

Matt: I think you're right. It is amazing how many times you do leave a funeral and you're encouraged and you're strengthened and it serves as a point of introspection for your own life and your own spiritual journey as well. So in thinking about being an incarnational body, the ⁓ body of Christ, being a body that is there to glorify God, what are some opportunities that you hope that the church will lean into in terms of being that incarnational body of Christ.

Wes McAdams: Yeah. Again, I think there's a danger in being impractical when we talk about some of this stuff. And there's a danger in being overly specific in some of these things. like on the one hand, it could be just so theological and so academic that we don't even realize what are the practical implications, like you said, to being embodied and actually serving, rolling up our sleeves and doing for other people what God has done for us. Like we have to be really practical with that. But sometimes I'm afraid that we get so specific with that to say, okay, well here are the seven opportunities that you have. Like you could volunteer at Thrive and we need help in children's ministry and you could be a chaperone on our youth events or you can help with providing food for the family at this specific funeral. Like all of those are really good opportunities. We actually do need volunteers in all of those ways. And those are very real applications to what we talked about on Sunday. But I'm afraid sometimes that when we get really specific with stuff, people think, ⁓ well, I can't do any of those seven things. So there's no way that I can serve. Again, I think that it requires some creativity for us to think through our individual situation. And that's really what I want people to do is just think about their own life. their own abilities, their own opportunities, their own strengths, and then think about the needs that are around them and say, where do my abilities and someone else's needs intersect? How can I help them in those very real ways? And when they do that, they are offering their body as a living sacrifice. That is their priestly duty. And so whatever that is, and chances are the opportunity is right there. under your nose, whether you recognize it or not. Sometimes we get really good at ignoring the opportunities that are right in front of us, but it's right there in front of us. And if we will open our eyes to it, then it becomes our responsibility, our duty. Like once we see it, once we know we have a responsibility to do it, anyone who doesn't do the good that he can do and should do and knows to do, James says for him, it's a sin. Like if you know the good that you should do and you say, nevermind, don't really want to do that, then it's sinful. Like you're missing the mark. I often think about compliments that way, that we even use the term, owing someone a compliment or paying, I guess we say it that way, we pay someone a compliment as if it's money. I like to think of it as owing someone a compliment. That if I think of something nice about someone, I owe them, like now I'm in debt to them because I thought something nice about them and until I say it to them, I'm in debt to them. And so when you pay someone a compliment, it's because you owed them that compliment because God put it, I believe God put it in your heart, in your mind to encourage that person. And until you actually pay it to them, you're in debt to them. And we need to realize that there is a responsibility that we have to do the good things that we recognize need to be done and we have the ability to do.

Matt: I think that's really helpful. mean, it's amazing how our language sometimes does either speak to our motives or speak to that understanding, this idea of being in a transactional relationship of owing and paying and all those things. It's just interesting that sometimes that economic logic can sink into other areas that or places that were involved. know my preacher growing up, his big pet peeve was saying the phrase, problem. He always would stress, you need to say you're welcome because it was. something that you were willing to do on their behalf, not like, nah, you know, didn't know skin off my back or whatever, you know, no problem for me. But, you know, it's just, it's funny how those little, you know, mental shifts can, be impactful. when you think about, you know, as we're kind of coming towards the end about responsibility, personal responsibility, shared responsibility, we sometimes can get into, you know, a conversation about accountability. how do we, you know, we know our, some of our brothers and sisters gifts and talents. We know, you know, like you said, that there are areas of the body that suffer when we don't bring our, you know, our gifts, our talents and our heart and our motivation to it. Like how do we speak into our brothers and sisters lives when maybe we notice that that's happening and how do we empower them or call them to account in those opportunities.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, I think that there's no way, this is such a good question, Matt. I'm so glad you asked this. I think there's no way for us to hold people accountable without a relationship to start with. Like you can't really hold somebody accountable outside of a relationship. Like it's very difficult, if not impossible, for me to hold a stranger on the street accountable to pretty much anything, like maybe obeying the law, but I can't be like, hey, buddy, Be better, like be a better person, be a better human being. I'd like to say that to people sometimes, but it means nothing. Like I have no relationship with them in order to hold them accountable. That's why we have to be involved in each other's lives. We have to be intimately involved in each other's lives. The word fellowship, unfortunately we apply it to having a potluck meal. Fellowship, koinonia, is so much more than that. It's to be in partnership with people. We have to have fellowship with people in order to hold people accountable to the fellowship, to the partnership that we have. If I have a partnership with somebody, then we both know, okay, I have a responsibility and you have a responsibility. And if I'm not fulfilling my responsibility, please hold me accountable to it. And to remind me, Wes, you're supposed to do X, Y, and Z. You're supposed to take out the garbage and do the dishes. And every Tuesday, you're supposed to do this. If we have a partnership, then we know we both have responsibility here. We have to start thinking about, quote unquote, church membership in terms of our partnership and fellowship within the body so that we can hold each other accountable to say over a meal while we're breaking bread, hey brother, I brought you over to my house today. One, because I just want to share food and share time with you because I love you. We do this all the time, but. I have to tell you, it's really been on my heart that we need your help in this area and you have an ability to do this and you used to volunteer in this way and we really miss you and we really need you. We have to have a relationship there to begin with. If we're just pulling this out of the blue with people, it's not going to mean as much. They're probably just going to leave. I don't think if somebody's barely showing up to worship, for us to say, hey, by the way, you really need to be volunteering for X, and Z. That's probably not the way you're gonna be effective in doing that. Build a relationship with them, serve them, let them know you love them, and then hopefully they will see, ⁓ this is what it looks like to serve other people. I ought to be doing that. And if they don't, at some point, tell them, hey, we need you. the rest of the body needs you and we need you to contribute in the ways that I know that you can contribute. And for a lot of people, that's a huge encouragement to them. Like it's a big encouragement because it's empowering to them. It acknowledges you have talent, you have strength, you have ability, and we need you to apply it to this. Some people have never been told and don't genuinely believe that they're needed. People need and want to be needed. So when you communicate that to your close friends and your family to tell them, we need you, we need you. We're not trying to run you off. We need you even more. We need you to help us in these very specific ways.

Matt: Yeah, I think I want to lean into that a little bit because it's something that, you know, to peel back the curtain, like we've talked about a lot as a staff of like. Do we sometimes try to make things too easy? Like, do we try to make it to where, you know, it's all prepared and you just show up and you do a little thing like? Or do we need to give people more responsibility so there is that, you know? feeling of value and need and then with that, like, how does it then not become the unhealthy thing of, ⁓ this is mine, you know, or this is mine forever? Like, I mean, any thoughts on, you know, how we walk that balance of giving people responsibility in a healthy way?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm so glad you brought this up because this is one of the things I love to talk about. It's that sometimes we talk about ownership, like giving people ownership in a ministry. And I like to kind of push back on that idea and say, well, it's not really ownership because we don't want people owning a ministry. We want people to feel a sense of stewardship. And so I did an entire series a few quarters ago on Wednesday night. about stewardship, about how we are all stewards of everything we have. Everything we have is a stewardship. And that's the concept I think that we need people to understand. Like stewardship is hard work. Like we need you to work and we need to impress upon each other that there is some tension there. There's some challenge there. And when we don't, when we just make it not a stewardship. but a spectator sport to be a Christian, where we're just showing up and being spectators. And even sometimes in our volunteer opportunities, we're really very little more than just spectators. Like just come and show people what we've already prepared and what we were already doing. We need for people to actually see themselves as stewards, to say, God has given you an opportunity and a responsibility to serve people in this way. We need you to serve in this way, but not to... take it and be owners of it. We don't want it to be ownership because when it gets to ownership, like you said, people just they latch on to it with a steel grip and they say, this is mine and you can't tell me how to run this thing and I've been doing this for 20 years and I'm going to keep doing this and over my dead body, are you going to change anything? No, it doesn't belong to me. Like the pulpit, some preachers call themselves pulpit ministers, not my pulpit. Like I'm a preaching minister. I'm not a pulpit minister. It's not my pulpit. It belongs to the Lord. And so if the Lord sees fit for other people to preach and other people to teach, absolutely, I'm just a steward here. And so yes, we need to work hard. We need to serve hard. We need to impress upon people the importance of working hard, of being servants. I know we don't like to use the word slave, but yes, even slaves of Jesus. we belong to him to serve, work hard. And he's given us this responsibility that is a stewardship, but it's never mine. And I should never get to the point where I feel like I am indispensable, like this, like I have to be here. And if I don't run it, then it won't be run well. And if I don't do it, nobody can do it. That sort of mentality is not the mentality that we need to have to say, hey, I'm just a servant. My body is a living sacrifice. However, I can be useful to the Lord. I want to be useful to the Lord. Use me up. Use me in whatever way, Lord, you see fit. And then when my time is done, you've got other things and other people that will serve and you will be glorified in all of those things. And just recognizing again, as we said it on Sunday, not overestimating our own contribution, but also not underestimating our own contribution.

Matt: I think that's a great last word to ⁓ have on this lesson. Thank you for bringing it to us. We've got a special kind of special lesson this week. I'm not attached to a series, but what's coming up this Sunday?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, every now and then I like to remind people what's the overall theme again for the year. so our 2026 theme, that is what year we're in, right? 2026. It's hard to keep track. They go so fast. The theme for the year is fearless and faithful. And so we're talking about moving forward in faith, not falling back into fear. And so this Sunday, we're going to be in Romans chapter eight. We're going to be talking about the spirit of slavery.

Matt: All day.

Wes McAdams: versus the spirit of adoption. We've been adopted into the family of God. We've been given the Holy Spirit. And so we need to not have a spirit of slavery as if we were still slaves, but have a spirit of adoption that we recognize we've been, we are children of the Lord.

Matt: We're definitely looking forward to that. want to thank you for listening. If you're in North Dallas, Collin County, we'd love for you to come visit us at McDermott Road and we hope that you're having a blessed week. Thanks.