Wes McAdams: After a sermon is over, have you ever wanted to make a comment, ask a question, or listen to the preacher say more about a particular idea? If so, this podcast is for you. My name is Wes McAdams, and I'll be sitting down with one of my fellow McDermott Road ministers to discuss comments, questions, and thoughts that have come up after the sermon is over. Welcome to P.S., the Post-Sermon Podcast. Thanks so much for listening to P.S., the Post Sermon Podcast. To find out more about this podcast or about the Church of Christ on McDermott Road, you can visit our website at ccmcdermott.org slash P.S. If this has been an encouragement to you, we also hope you will rate and review the show wherever you're listening, as well as share it with a friend. Because we believe sermons are not just for Sunday, but for our whole week and our whole life.

Barrett: Hey, welcome to the Post Sermon Podcast. We're happy to have you listening or watching. My name is Barrett Bingham. I'm one of the ministers here at the Church of Christ on McDermott Road. Joined as always by my friend and preacher extraordinaire Wes McAdams. Wes, how are you today, man?

Wes McAdams: I'm doing great. I don't know about that whole preacher extraordinaire thing, but I'm I'm happy to be your friend, Barrett. I'm glad we're having this conversation.

Barrett: I'm happy to be Wes's friend, everybody. and I didn't know what else to say. Preacher Extraordinaire seemed appropriate at the time, but now I'm regretting it. Hey, how's your ⁓ head and nose healing up? We'll dive right in.

Wes McAdams: They are healing up just fine. I should get the stitches out sometime this week.

Barrett: Okay. What about the n the neck? Are you whiplash?

Wes McAdams: I am sure that I am a little bit whiplashed. I'm, you know, trying to work out all the kinks. I'm not as young as I used to be. I'm sure I would have bounced back from a bike accident much quicker than I I have this time, but ⁓ but I'm okay. First time in my life. By the way, and and just for the record, for all of those people saying, ⁓ we're gonna have to put you in bubble wrap and all the funny jokes that people have been sharing with me, which is just fine and I can take a joke for sure. But for the record, this is the first time in my life that I've ever had stitches and I've ridden a lot of miles on a bicycle. I I did a lot when I was younger and and I've ridden almost a thousand miles on this bike I that I've had just for the last few months. But ⁓ this is the first like major time where I've gotten, you know, seriously injured. I don't even know if you could even classify it as seriously, but Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The bad thing is for those that weren't here on Sunday, the bad thing is that I really didn't get that hurt.

Barrett: I w I wouldn't, but I mean Iraq for sure.

Wes McAdams: wrecking my bike. I I wrecked the bike and then I got up and I thought I was just fine, but apparently I wasn't as fine as I thought I was. And I tried to fix the situation myself. And then I I was going to ride to the house, which is only a block away, and I completely blacked out and I fell and I hit my head. So I wasn't even moving when I fell and and really did a number on my head. But ⁓ here I am and and I'm healing up just fine.

Barrett: It was truly the e bike accident that keeps on giving because you know, you had you started yesterday's sermon with the story of hey, I've got a bandage on my head, I've got stitches under that, my nose is scraped up. You know, I had a wreck. And you told that story. I wrecked the bike and was fine, got up, passed out, then I did all the damage. And you know, that personal story of your stubbornness, if you will, and I I really I mean, you summed it up nicely of like it was my

Wes McAdams: Yes.

Barrett: Stubbornness, it's my pride too, you know. And I was like, ⁓ it's so relatable. Of like it is multiple things, right? It's not just being stubborn. I think we can, you know, try to make it seem like less of a personality thing, and just like, ⁓ you I was stubborn in the moment, or because I'd had a wreck, I might have been embarrassed. But it's like, well, there's pride attached to all those things. But in the stubbornness, in this pride, I made things worse. And telling that story, coupled with, you know, I had in my notes.

Wes McAdams: Yes, yes. Absolutely.

Barrett: This was you. Like I have in my notes personal example of making things worse. Got a huge laugh in first service, ⁓ yesterday. So maybe again you told us your bike wreck story. Y it was in your notes to kinda have a personal example of that. tell us some about that how that fit into the sermon. And then where there was this kind of shift from like this personal example that was got a big pop into kind of some intense subject matter that has led to some very interesting, ⁓ difficult questions that we're gonna get to today.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, yeah. The the point of the the sermon that I that I had written before the bike accident, I had written that sometimes Sometimes our solutions make bad situations worse. That sometimes when we try to fix something, we make a bad situation worse. And I had already written that when I had the accident. I was like, well, this illustrates exactly what I was talking about. That sometimes something is bad, and then we try to fix the situation, and we try to fix it by our own strength, by our own wisdom, and we make a bad situation worse. And I think we can all relate to that. And I was trying to do so in a way that everybody could relate to because we were transitioning. Positioning into the story of Ezra. And Ezra is this priest and scribe who helps bring exiles back to Jerusalem. And he really has a heart to teach them the Bible, to teach them the law of Moses, and to get them straightened out, to reform the people. And before he even really begins his project of reforming the people, he is told that they have intermarried with the Gentile women, that these Israelite men have married. unbelieving Gentile women and and he he really as I put it on Sunday he freaked out and he he pulled hair out of his beard he pulled hair out of his head he tore his garments and he was appalled in his own words and he prayed to God and didn't know what to do and then he he comes up with a solution or rather one is proposed to him and this the suggestion is that he forces all of these Israelite men To divorce their foreign wives and to send them and their kids away. And he decides that's the best course of action. And he he makes these men divorce their wives and sends them and their children away. And for the next two months, they they have this mass divorce. And the book of Ezra, as we have it in our Bibles today, originally Ezra and Nehemiah are one book, but the way our book ends is just this long list of names of men who had married foreign wives. And then it says that they divorced them and some of them had children. And it just ends rather abruptly. And we're supposed to read this and think, what? What what do we do with a story like this? And that's what I really encourage people to think through on Sunday is was this the right solution? Was this the wrong solution? What should we do with a story like this when we read it?

Barrett: No, that's so good. with that subject matter of the difficult, heartbreaking, rainy divorce season that we talked about. ⁓ and, you know, that subject matter and the abrupt ending with kind of a hopeless ending of like, ⁓ it was a dark time and well, you know, we're moving on. Like what was some of your concern with preaching that? Like did you have a big concern or a number one concern? Or were there multiple things that like preparing that felt worrisome?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, this is such a good question, Barrett, because the this would be maybe the the pinnacle example of a sermon that's very difficult to preach, because I obviously have my own opinion about how the story should be read. I I believe that Ezra made the wrong decision, that he was well-meaning, he was God-fearing, ⁓ he was a man who was religious and pious and all the good godly things, but he did the wrong thing. He made the wrong choice. As Godly people often do. People who want to do the right thing often do the wrong thing. And I think these stories in Ezra and Nehemiah are all about that, all about people who have these really high expectations and desire to bring about the kingdom of God, to bring about all of the things that that Isaiah and Jeremiah and the prophets had promised, but yet they are disillusioned and they're disappointed with the reality. And ultimately the answer is. They need to wait for Jesus. The Messiah is coming and God will keep his promises, but you're not going to bring about that salvation on your own. Even though you you mean to do well, you often do things that are hurtful and harmful. That's how I read the story, and I think that's how we're supposed to read the story. But I I am I am not the that's not the only way to read the story. And there are plenty of scholars who believe that no, we should read this story and believe. And understand Ezra as making the right decision. And many people read it that way. And I don't want to misrepresent the text to say this is the only way it can be read. I want to say, yes, there are scholars who think this, and there are scholars who think that. I do think it is this way of reading it, but that's not to say that this other is not represented because there are those who who take this position. So it is always difficult to preach a text where there are multiple takes on it and where there are scholars. Who fall down on either side of it. You can read a commentary that would suggest that Ezra did exactly what he should have done in that situation, that there really was only one good option and that Ezra chose that. But but there are other scholars who don't come down there. And then to do what I did on Sunday and pull in Malachi as being commentary on this situation, or at least commentary on divorces like these. And this is why. I believe Malachi was prophesying against such divorces. But again, there are commentaries that say, no, no, no. Mm Malachi is commenting on a different kind of situation, not on this particular situation. And and so it it is difficult to preach through a text like that where there are differing opinions on it.

Barrett: Super difficult and you touched on two of the questions that I wanted to ask and I'm trying to decide which one to go to next. So I'm gonna t pick a completely neutral one and talk about feedback from Sunday. And then maybe people will kind of forget what you were talking about and I'll bring it back up. tell me about any feedback that you get on Sunday with a kind of I'll say controversial because there are two sides of the way you could read this and ⁓ you know you've got scholars on both sides. I'm sure people in the audience had opinions on because I I I do ⁓ agree, like here's Ezra a major biblical ⁓ player, you know, and you know, it says he he loves the Lord, he loves the word of God, and then seemingly might have gotten it completely wrong, right? And that's a little concerning. And so did you get any feedback afterwards, ⁓ besides the questions that were sent in?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, I'm sure there were those who disagreed with me, and that's okay. And you can still disagree with me. Send me your disagreements. That's fine. ⁓ I I I am completely open to that. And at one time I would have taken the other position as well. ⁓ but I heard from people on Sunday that were incredibly thankful because they had never even considered the possibility, maybe even the possibility that they could take that position. And it this story really bothered them for a long time. And I think it has bothered a lot of people to To read this story and think, that doesn't sound like the God that I know. That doesn't sound like Jesus. That doesn't sound like a God of love and mercy to send these women away that are vulnerable and are unprotected. Women that had Israelite men make covenant with them, make promises to them, be married to them. We believe that marriage is for life. We believe that when you covenant yourself.

Barrett: Yeah.

Wes McAdams: To someone, even if you probably shouldn't have gotten married in the first place, but you have made these promises now, and and you are husband and wife, and God has made you one flesh, then you have to keep your promises to them. If we believe that that's true, then then this story seems so out of place that God would be in favor of divorcing these women and sending them away simply because of their ethnicity. And and there have been a lot of people that have really struggled with this. And I think it's because a lot of times we read the Bible as being prescriptive. And sometimes it is prescriptive. It is saying this is what you should do, this is a model to follow. Other times the Bible is descriptive. Just because the Bible says this happened doesn't mean that this is what should have happened. The j the book of Judges is filled with stories that are not prescriptive, they're descriptive. And so we Can't read them assuming that just because this is what someone did, even a well-meaning, God-fearing, Bible-believing person did, doesn't necessarily mean that's what they should have done.

Barrett: Yeah, I don't plan on ⁓ hunting down my enemies like Gideon, you know. I I should love my enemies. That's what this tells us. But Gideon does a good job of not doing that. so ⁓ that's c one of my questions is like how do we ⁓ as Christians, like how do we discern what is ⁓ descriptive and prescriptive? Like how do we discern when it's a warning sign against like human ⁓ understanding and human wisdom and human intervention or when it's

Wes McAdams: Right, right. Yeah.

Barrett: ⁓ And I know there are times where it's very obvious, but there's times like this where it's like, you know, I'm sure out of context this sounds like, hey, if you've messed up in a marriage, ⁓ And you find your, you know, partner is unfaithful to the Lord, well you can go to Ezra and you can find a reason to, you know, divorce them and ⁓ and I'm sure that's been used in the past. But ⁓ how do we d what what does that discernment look like? What, you know, one piece of advice would you give Christians in discerning the difference between descriptive and prescriptive?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, it it all comes down to the way we ended the sermon yesterday was that we know what is the will of God, what is the solution of God. God's solution is patient, merciful, self-giving love. How do we know that? Well, we know that because of the cross, because the cross is the ultimate manifestation of God's patient, merciful, self-giving love, but also because This is what God has always revealed about himself. He has always said that he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. Now that doesn't mean that there is never a time for judgment. There is never a time for God to say enough is enough, because God does that, but only after he has practiced long suffering and he has been patient and merciful and he has given himself in a loving way. That we see over and over and over again. And And when we look at this story, we we can't help but think, well, does this match the character of God? And I think that's a question that we we should always ask when we read scripture. When something seems weird, when it seems out of place, when it seems strange, we have this tendency to practice the Passover, just pass over it and and kind of ignore it, sweep it under the rug, and say, Well, that's weird. I don't know what what I'm supposed to do with that. And so we don't do anything with it. Rather, when something seems weird or strange or out of place. Maybe that is an invitation to wrestle with it and to say, what do we do with this? And how does this fit? You know, sometimes when when we have these kinds of situations, if we believe that everything that happened happened because it was the will of God, God wanted it to happen, God commanded that it happened, God made it happen. Then when we get to the New Testament and we get to Jesus and we get to the cross, this is what caused people like the heretic Marcion. To to say, well, maybe these are two different gods. Like the God of the Old Testament is a different, ⁓ a different God than the God of the New Testament. Well, no, they are the same God. And so we have to read the Bible forwards, like from the Old Testament to the New Testament, but then we also have to now begin to read the the Bible backwards and read through the cross back to the Old Testament to say, okay, if the Son of God was always with the Father. In all of this, and they were always united, and and the the will and the heart of the the father is expressed in the the person of Jesus Christ. Well, how do we read these stories now, understanding this fuller, more ultimate revelation? And yes, all of the the Bible is revealing the character of God, but the cross of Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God, and we have to figure out how do we understand. these stories now in light of the cross. And and that's always going to help us to have a better understanding of the stories, even maybe better than than generations before the cross had. Maybe they were left scratching their heads saying, what do we do with this Ezra story? Why has this been handed down to us? Or maybe they had a better way of of understanding and wrestling with the text. We have this tendency to read the Bible like it's a rule book. And and it's not a rule book. It's a story. It's a story that began in the garden and it it led to Jesus and then it's leading ultimately to to the second garden and to the the restoration of all things. And the character of God is the heartbeat of the entire story.

Barrett: No, I took a great deal of comfort in the super disheartening story of like, yeah, here is a prophet that was in the word of God and so wanted to be aligned with the law and to teach people. And there are a lot of people that would say, Man, it looks like you really dropped the ball here, and that his wisdom and his understanding still took him away from the character of God. And so even in my practicing of ministry and being in the word and wanting to help in my own wisdom, I can still miss the character of God. And that's one of my soapboxes that I've got on in youth ministry of like, hey, from Numbers 6 all the way to, you know, the letters to the Corinthians, we see, you know, God talking about my face is a smiling and gracious God, and my face is the same as the face of Jesus. I'm a smiling, gracious, kind father. And then we get to this story we're like, Well, God wanted to send women and children into the n you know wilderness. That's what he w And I go ⁓ it's so such a weird disconnect but ⁓

Wes McAdams: Let me let me kind of point out one thing there, because I think maybe you had said that Ezra was a was a prophet, and I think that that's a a really Good distinction that we need to make is that Ezra was a priest and he was a scholar, but but that's one reason why the prophets were so necessary. And if, and again, this is a big if, and there would be lots of commentators and and and scholars who would disagree with me, but if Malachi is this prophet who is speaking into this situation, it makes it so much more important that. This was the the ongoing revelation from God through these prophets, through these spokesmen from God that were speaking the will of God, because they had this take and understanding that was direct from God, and often they weren't listened to, even by religious people, even by priests, even by scholars, by scribes. They weren't listening to the prophets, and that that prophetic role was always so important. That just because someone was a leader, like Ezra or Nehemiah, we'll get to later, but just because they were leaders and just because God was with them and they loved God doesn't mean that they necessarily were aligned with the prophetic voice that was happening at the same time.

Barrett: Dude, I knew I was gonna do that. I was reading next question. ⁓ the prophet Malachi, how you wove that into the priest and Ezra. My apologies, listeners and watchers, for dropping the ball on the word there, but ⁓ thank you for going back and getting that. ⁓ you know, you you did talk about the parallel, right? With Malachi II suggesting that Malachi is probably condemning the exact divorces that Ezra's making happen and

Wes McAdams: No.

Barrett: he I the language used telling the men that, you know, he they've covered their garments with violence. Then he said, We've We've all done that. We've all covered our garments with violence by trying to fix things on our own. ⁓ you know, I've got a book on my shelf that's like skeletons in God's closet, and it's a lot of those stories where men have s tried to act on behalf of God and there's, you know, all of these holy wars and all these terrible things that, you know, we try to say, Well, that's proof that God doesn't exist and it's like, No, it's proof that w we mess it up all the time. ⁓ so in our modern Christian families and homes, like what does it look like When our well-intentioned solutions to spiritual problems do more violence than help.

Wes McAdams: Yeah. ⁓ there there's so many examples. And I don't want to get too specific, but but but but there are so many examples, both like you said, the holy wars that have been fought, the violence, the literal violence that's been done, the the heretics that have been burned at the stake, that have been killed because people believed I'm standing up for the truth, and they have have killed people, executed people, murdered people, gone to war against people, standing up for doctrinal truth. And even if they're right, they're wrong in what they're doing. They're wrong in how they're trying to establish the truth or protect the truth. But even in our modern world, and I'm so glad that we've for the most part, as Christians, stopped killing each other over doctrinal differences. We still divide over them and we say all kinds of hurtful and harmful things. Well, I can't have anything to do with this person because they believe X, Y, and Z. I can't have anything to do with this person because they disagree with me on X, Y, and Z. Or this person is legitimately wrong. Like they've done sinful, wrong things that that absolutely they're wrong. Well, because they've done that. Then you also do something wrong to them because you're angry, because you're proud, because and again, sometimes we do so thinking that God wants us to do that. And really, a lot of times it's this short term win. Over the long term, the long game. And I think God is calling us to play the long game instead of the short term win. You know, sometimes we feel like, well, if I don't say something about this, nobody will. If I don't do something about this, nobody will. If I don't stand up to this person who's preaching something wrong, nobody will. Okay, maybe. But you feel like you have to own them, you have to put them in their place, you have to shut them down, you have to make them be quiet. And and really you're doing more damage, you're doing more harm than you are good. I think about people, again, I don't want to pick on anybody, but but I think about people that are standing outside of a ball game with a with a megaphone and they're they're preaching the gospel. Like I might agree with some of the stuff they're saying. Hey, you need to repent, you're all going to hell. Like I might agree, like some of the sins they're condemning, you might be right. Those are sins, and and people do need to repent. But not only is is nobody responding to that. Nobody's repenting because you're blasting them with a megaphone, but you're actually pushing people further from God. And how many people, to your point earlier, how many people to this day are not believers? And reject Christianity because of the crusades. And it's like, I'm still having to answer for Christians who went to war against Muslims and fought people to the death to retake a piece of land because they believed that was the will of God, or people during the Reformation who burned people at the stake because they believed that was the will of God. There are people still rejecting Jesus because these well-meaning, God-fearing, Bible-believing people. Did horrible harm in the name of God.

Barrett: Let's get into questions from listeners and our audience and people that were here yesterday for sure. We've got a little bit of everybody, but ⁓ and one that ties in nicely to the solution to those problems and you know the clarification of how do we know it's a godly solution and not human wisdom. But ⁓ one of our sisters, Cecilia Stone, wrote in ⁓ when discussing God's solution is patient, merciful, and self-giving love. Could you provide further clarification? on the characteristics of self-giving love.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, that's such a good question. I'm so glad Cecilia sent that in. Thank you for sending that in, because that that is such an important question. And it's it's one that that the apostles were constantly drawing the early church back to. Like when the early church told people to follow the example of Jesus, the example that they specifically gave to follow was the example of the cross. That's what Jesus himself told them to do was to love one another as I have loved you. And that that could mean washing the disciples' feet. That's one example. But more than that, it was in that Jesus laid down his life for us. We ought to lay down our lives for one another. That's first John chapter three. That that's that is what we are supposed to do. So we're supposed to figure out in any given s situation what does cross-shaped or cruciform love look like in this situation? ⁓ Paul talks about this in Philippians chapter two. He talks about how we are to have the mind of Christ. And he talks about how Jesus, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped or held onto, but made himself nothing. He took on the form of a servant and gave his life. He he suffered and died even to the point of death on a cross. And the point is. For us to imitate that. And he says that we should count others as being more significant than ourselves. That's what self-giving love is. It looks at other people and it says, How can I do good for them, even at cost to myself? Even if it hurts me, how can I help them? Rather than saying, What can I get from them or or how can I make them do what I want them to do, even if that's what I what I think is the right thing to do or good thing to do? Instead of trying to take from or force someone else to do something, it is forcing ourselves and giving up of ourselves. And and instead of taking from giving up, ⁓ instead of causing harm, it is it is helping even when it causes harm to us. And and that's what we see in Jesus. We see that self-giving love. And we're supposed to figure out. And that's the challenge for all of us in every situation, to say what does cruciform, cross-shaped, Christ-following, self-giving love look like in this situation? What does it look like to help them even if it costs me something? What does it look like to help them even if it costs me everything? Even if it cost me reputation, even if it cost me popularity, even if it cost me my my name, even if it cost me money, even if it cost me time, how can I help them even at cost to myself? Not because I'm trying to manipulate them into doing what I want them to do, but because this is what God through Christ has done for me. Because He loved me like this, what would it look like for me to love other people like this? And, you know. Just in case we might think that kind of love is only for other Christians or only other people that are doing it right, we need to remember that when Jesus did that for us, it's while we were still his enemies, while we were enemies of God. This is what Jesus did for us. He loved us even though it cost him everything. And our job is to love each other and our neighbors and even our enemies like that.

Barrett: Hm. So good. I I used to think, you know, taking up my cross daily It like a okay, I've got to be disciplined and I've got to be tortured and taken advantage of. And it's like, no, that's daily choosing to love in a self-sacrificing way. And so thank you for getting into the weeds and the details on that one. Let's ⁓ go to one of our two anonymous questions. and I'll I'll read this one here. Let me get my notes a little closer. But I have ⁓ she says, I have a friend that has begun to practice demonology, and she's begun following a Lord ⁓ Beelzebub. She knows I'm Christian and she respects that, but I feel like it's crossing a sort of line. She's my only friend. I don't want to cut her out. She tells me she doesn't want me to get into it, and she's not forcing her ideas on me. So I'd feel bad cutting her out. I don't know what I should do. Should I cut her out or stay her friend? I'm so conflicted. Tough

Wes McAdams: Yeah, yeah. This this goes right to the heart of what we talked about on Sunday, about sometimes we feel like if we're God's people, then the only right thing for me to do is separate myself from all of the bad, wicked, sinful, unclean people of the world. And that's understandable. And it is a reaction that we can sort of justify by looking at various stories in the Bible. In fact, that's exactly what the Pharisees did. And the Pharisees are sort of the spiritual descendants of Ezra. They the the word Pharisee means separate one. And they really prided themselves on separating themselves not only from Gentiles, these unclean Gentiles, but also from anybody who had. contact with the Gentiles, like the tax collectors. These are Jews that have sided with the Gentiles, the Romans, and are extorting money from their people. And they want to banish, exile anyone who is unclean and separate themselves. They believe the only way that we're going to bring about the kingdom of God, the only way the Messiah is going to come back, the only way the the curse is going to be reversed is for us to separate ourselves from those who are unclean. And then Jesus shows up God in the flesh shows up and instead of separating himself, he's not afraid of the uncleanness of the world rubbing off on him. The holiness of Jesus actually rubs off on them. Like his holiness is contagious. The uncleanness is not contagious, his holiness is contagious. So he touches unclean people, he eats with tax collectors and quote unquote sinners, and he takes the opposite approach of the Pharisees. Now, I'll I'll tell on the podcast the same thing that I told this young lady when she asked me this this question in person yesterday was you do have to guard yourself and make sure that you're not being taught or influenced or led astray by your friend. But but at the same time, you also have to sh to practice love and mercy and patience with with her and help her to see the love of God manifest in you. It's that what I told my life group yesterday, because of Jesus and because of the Holy Spirit, all of us get to be priests. We believe in the priesthood of all believers. That that and that's what priests do. Priests, they bring people to God and they bring God to the people. And that's what we get to do every day in our home, in our school, in our neighborhood, in the world. We get to help bring God to the people, and we get to help bring the people to God. And and that's that's what priests are, and that's what we are. We are a bridge between humanity and God because of Jesus. And as we follow Him and as we walk in the light, we don't have to fear uncleanness. I don't have to be afraid that, ⁓ no, God's gonna punish me. There's no guilt by association, and their uncleanness or their disbelief is not gonna rub off on me as long as I keep my eyes on Jesus and I keep following him. Again, we we do have to guard ourselves and we have to be wise. And if we're being influenced by the world, we we have to, we may have to distance ourselves from that. ⁓ but we always have to practice patient, merciful, self-giving love.

Barrett: Well, and I think she d really summed up the options that we were talking about in the sermon. There's like the human wisdom of, well, I follow Jesus, you don't, I'm on a team, you're on a team. Deuces. You know, I'm not gonna have anything to do with you, I'm gonna cut you out. It's like that makes a lot of sense practically. It sounds good. ⁓ you know, I get where you would

Wes McAdams: Yeah.

Barrett: arrive to that and then, you know, the example of Jesus, that Jesus touched possessed people, that he was around demons himself, and he dealt with that and he you know, was guarded and was I think very careful about it and mindful of how he interacted with those ⁓ individuals and those demons and that sort of thing. But ⁓ I think he stayed their friend to answer her question and was very careful about it in a

Wes McAdams: And I'm so glad you you brought all that up too. And that reminds me of Ephesians 6, because the this spiritual armor that Paul walks through about the helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, the shield of faith, the sword of the spirit. He doesn't tell us all this to say, ⁓ you you should be really scared. There's some scary demons out there. You should be really worried about all this spiritual warfare. He says this to say, you have all the armor you need. You have God's armor on you. You are armored. With spiritual weapons and spiritual armor, so you have nothing to be afraid of. And if we go out into the world and with our friends and our family with that kind of confidence, knowing that as long as my my head is guarded with salvation, my chest is guarded with the righteousness of God, that my my body is shielded by faith. I have the the word of God, the sword of the spirit in my hands, I have nothing to be afraid of. Well that it changes the way that we approach everyone. We we realize we can be patient with people. I don't need to I don't need to change your mind today. I don't need to change your mind tomorrow. I can keep loving you. I can play the long game because I am clothed in the armor of God.

Barrett: Hmm. Such a great parallel. Thank you. the next question is a good one and a tricky one. I think something that I would say is part of like the the universal Christian experience. ⁓ the question says, What if the worst sins of your life come after you're baptized? ⁓ Paul says this in 1 Timothy 1, and it troubles me. even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. Back to the questioner. ⁓ my sins were not done, and are not done in ignorance. It is a daily struggle, even today. I would love your thoughts.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, yeah, we could talk about this for for hours. It's actually why some in the early church, within the first couple hundred years of Christianity, they delayed baptism until nearly their their deathbed because they were afraid that they wouldn't be forgiven of the sins they committed after baptism. They knew that the sins before baptism would all be forgiven, but the ones after baptism, they were worried maybe these won't be forgiven. So I need to wait as long as possible before I get baptized. But that's that's missing a really important aspect of what salvation is all about. We are not saved simply by getting wet, by getting dunked in water. We are saved by being disciples of Jesus. We are saved by following Jesus. We are saved by loyalty, allegiance to King Jesus. And that doesn't mean perfect allegiance. There is no perfect allegiance, there is no perfect loyalty. You don't, I I say it all the time, you don't have to be flawless, you just have to be faithful. Now, I could say about my my wife and and my marriage. Like, is it a perfect marriage? You know, have I been a perfect husband? Have I kept all of my my wedding vows? Well, it depends on what you mean. Like, I have I been faithful to my wife? Yes, I have been faithful to my wife, but have I been perfect? Well, no, I haven't been perfect and I've messed up and but I but I've been faithful to her. I haven't left. I'm I'm still here. She hasn't left me. She's still here. And and that's the thing with being a disciple of Jesus. As long as you are still here and you are still struggling, you are still fighting, you are still trying to be loyal and faithful to him, that's what faithfulness looks like. It looks like tenacious. holding on this perseverance, that's exactly what it looks like. And we are being saved through that, through that faithfulness to King Jesus, through that refusal to let go, through that refusal to give up, through that refusal to to walk away. And as long as you continue to hold on to him, he continues to hold on to you. Now it is possible for sure to say, I'm done, I'm finished, I'm not doing this anymore. And that's exactly what the Hebrew writer is trying to prevent people from doing in the book of Hebrews. He's trying to prevent them from walking away. But as long as we are holding on to Jesus in faith, we are being saved by that faith. Salvation is a gift of God. We are saved by grace through faith. It's not just we're we're saved by grace through baptism, we're saved by grace through faith, through loyalty to King Jesus. Not perfect, flawless loyalty, but flawed loyalty. And as long as we continue to be faithful to him. He continues to be faithful to us.

Barrett: That's very good. I think that's part of like universally maturing in your faith is understanding it's not going to be flawless. And not saying that the person wrote in is an immature Christian by any stretch of the imagination and I hope they don't take it that way. But I I do think it is ⁓ tempting ⁓ early on in your relationship with Jesus and in certain seasons ⁓ to really miss the forest for the trees and get ⁓ wrapped around this idea of well I was saved, am I still saved? And what can I do to remain saved and that sort of thing. But ⁓ great answer Wes. Let's ⁓ wrap up. I've got two more. One that was written in and then I'm gonna ask you where we're going next week and what the sermon series is going to look like moving forward. our sister Shannon Deshays Wrote in and said, It seems that in today's society we have a lot of patience and space for loving our unbelieving friends, family, and neighbors. But we have very little patience when it comes to loving our LGBTQ friends, family, and neighbors. Can you comment on how the idea of not breaking covenant also applies to those in this often sent-away community?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, yeah.

Barrett: It's a big question that I think really, you know, a great example, a microcosm, if you will, of what we're talking about. There's been a lot of, you know, wisdom of men put in how do we, you know, interact with this community as Christians and those saved. And then I think there are lots of ways that we kind of make things worse with that community sometimes.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is exact and I'm glad you put it that way, Bert, because th this is exactly what we're talking about, is that we don't and we shouldn't, we shouldn't pretend like something that is wrong is right. And and and God doesn't ask us to or demand that we pretend that things that are wrong are right. And and we do have to speak the truth about things that are wrong. And and sexual immorality is is wrong. We find that in the New Testament. But so is mistreating people. Mistreating people is also wrong. And we cannot mistreat people or be cruel to people or be merciless to people simply because they're they've sinned sexually. I I think we we we need to recognize that that. Everything that Jesus did for us is our example of how we are to treat other people. The way Jesus loved us, the way Jesus came here for us, the way Jesus gave himself for us again while we were enemies of God. He didn't condone our sin. He can't condemn sin and and die for sin and at the same time condone our sin. So Jesus never, he never affirmed. Our sin, he never said it's okay, it's not a big deal, don't worry about it. You know, that that's just the way some people are, you know, they're you're you're only human. He didn't say any of those things. He didn't justify our sin. He didn't, he didn't pretend like it was nothing, he didn't cover over it or, you know, sweep it under the rug. But he he gave himself, he sacrificed himself, and he loved people even while they were in the midst of their sin. We have to learn from that. We all have to learn from that. We have to number one, receive that and acknowledge that if it wasn't for that, we would be lost. And then we have to go and do likewise and be Jesus to the people around us. And so we're going to we're going to encounter people that have done wrong, whether it's sexual or otherwise. There are people that have done things that are wrong or that are still doing things that are wrong. And again, that doesn't mean that we affirm. That doesn't mean that we condone. It doesn't mean that we sweep under the rug or we pretend like it's not a problem. But we love people and we're kind to people and we're merciful to people and we don't treat people like they're untouchable. We do for other people what Jesus did for us and we play the long game. We we don't we don't pretend like this this can be settled in one conversation. Build relationships with people, maintain relationships with people, even when it's hard, even when it's difficult, even when it's challenging, even when you disagree, even when they think that you're hateful, even when they think that you, you know, you just by holding the the the view that you hold that you're a you're bigoted and you're wrong. I there's a lot of people that think I'm bigoted and wrong. And then there are a lot of people that think I'm compromising because I I want to love people that that think I'm wrong. But but that's exactly the uncomfortable, messy middle that we are called into to yes, speak the truth about sexual ethics and sexual morality, absolutely, but also love people who are sexually immoral. Because you know who else has been sexually immoral? Me, Wes. And I was loved by Christian people, even when I did things or thought things or looked at things that I shouldn't have. And people loved me and helped me and were merciful to me and patient with me and showed self-giving love to me. And I want to do that for other people because Jesus did that for me and other people have done that for me. And that's what it looks like to be followers of Jesus.

Barrett: I think that's so good. I I loved one of the points that you made yesterday. Like, what does the character of God or Jesus teach us to do in this situation? Right. Like that's what we keep coming back to. And it's in the cross, it's in the fruit of the spirit. It's what is the produce of the spirit, and it's in the nature of God and Jesus. And that we see how do we respond to and you know this group of people, how do we deal with them, if you want to phrase it that way, which sounds harsh, but like, you know, not walking away from And and not leaving these people behind and not stiff arming them at the door, you know, that's not in the nature of God for any group of people, but especially this group. And so ⁓ may we always seek to walk and live and respond ⁓ to everybody ⁓ in the spirit. ⁓ we don't have to guess. I liked that was a really great takeaway that you left us with of like we don't have to guess what this looks like anymore. ⁓ so thank you everybody that wrote in questions and thank you for ⁓ making Making this possible. Thank you, Wes, for another great sermon yesterday and for your time today. Where are we gonna go next week in the podcast? Or in the sermon first. Yeah.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, sermon first and then and then also the podcast. Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna talk about Nehemiah. Nehemiah is probably it's the second half of this story, and it's the the part that's probably a little bit more well known to people. ⁓ lots of sermon series, lots of books that have been written on Nehemiah, and I'll just give everybody the hot take right now. I think most of the stories and the lessons we pull out of Nehemiah are probably mistaken. Like I think we tend to say, ⁓ this is a book about Good leadership principles. I think if you were to just sit down and read the whole book of Nehemiah, you might not think so. Because again, just like in Ezra, you you you have all of these great expectations and great hopes and ⁓ everything's gonna be wonderful now and and we've we've hit this milestone, we've crossed this, and as long as we we do this and if we do that, if we build this temple or we build this wall or we do this thing, then the Messiah's gonna come back and everything's gonna be easy and comfortable and perfect. And it's not that. And there's more waiting and there's more work that needs to be done. And I think that's the lesson here. The lesson is that we cannot do it on our own. No matter how great of a leader you are, no matter how smart you are, how religious you are, how hardworking you are, you are not going to bring about the kingdom of God on your own by your own strength and your own wisdom. It takes the Messiah, it takes waiting for Jesus. And that was true. In the days of Ezra and Nehemiah, i it's true today. Wait for Jesus, wait for his salvation, be patient. He's coming, he's coming. He was coming then and he's coming again. And and we have to wait. And so I I can't wait to talk about more about the book of Nehemiah.

Barrett: Awesome. No that sounds exceptionally exciting. ⁓ at the beginning of the episode I almost said, I feel like we've got a forty-five to fifty minute podcast for you. And I didn't, because I did not want that amount of pressure on myself to ⁓ meet a made up time, ⁓ just off the top of my head looking at my notes. But hey, forty-five minutes and fifty-five seconds right this Right this second. ⁓ we did pretty well. Thank you for listening, for watching. Thank you, Wes, and join us next week for another episode of the Post Sermon Podcast.