Matt Mead: Welcome to the PS Podcast. We're so glad that you're joining us today for a conversation about faith and how we think through living the sermon each day in our lives and really blessed by your lesson yesterday, Wes. But you've been gone for the last week or so. Do you mind telling everybody about your trip and the cool things that you got to be a part of?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, thanks, Matt. It's good to be back. But yeah, it was a it was a great trip. I got to go to the European Vision Workshop in Bucharest, Romania. It was sponsored by Sunset, the Bible Institute in Lubbock, Texas, also by World or yeah, World English Institute, I believe, and Healing Hands International all co-sponsored the the conference. And it was great. I got to be with over a hundred people and most of whom are busy doing mission work or ministry in some congregational setting and just awesome to to hear about all the awesome things that God is doing all throughout the world. Things that that we we tend to to totally be oblivious about and maybe even in places that we didn't even know exist. And it was really great to hear those stories. And then we support a congregation in Tallinn, Estonia. This is my third time to to be in Estonia and it was great to see those brothers and sisters, not only our Estonian brothers and sisters, but also our Ukrainian brothers and sisters that have been displaced from their their home and are living and working in in Tallinn and in other places around the world and and it was just a good reminder that the war is still going on and and they're still suffering because of the war. And we need to be praying for our Ukrainian brothers and sisters and and not only thankful for the places God has sent them, but also be praying that that this war ends and that there be peace.

Matt Mead: Well, thank you for saying that and thank you for going and being a part of that. I know that that they were blessed by having you there and it's amazing when we get to see so many things that God is doing that we aren't even aware of, and so thank you for being a part of that. While you were gone, we launched into this new series and Barrett got us kicked off last week. But do you wanna kinda tell our our listeners about the series that we're in?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, Baird did a great job talking about Shifra and Puah and and talking about the Hebrew midwives rather that that lied in order to make sure that the the Hebrew baby boys were not were not killed. And amazing story, amazing women. And yeah, we're talking about fearless women of faith. We're this whole year we're talking about fearless and faithful. And and we're highlighting some women that that certainly fit that description and are great examples of fearless faithfulness. And we talked about those Hebrew midwives first, and then we are talking this last week about the daughters of Zalofahad and how they they stood up and said, We want to be part of the inheritance that's coming in the promised land. And I'm excited about this series because I I think all too often we We sometimes overlook or forget about, I don't know exactly the intention behind it, but sometimes we don't know the stories about some of the women in scripture. When we think about I in fact I started this week by saying when you think about fearless faithfulness, who comes to mind? And we might think about Abraham and we might think about David or Elijah or Paul or Peter, and these are great examples and we should talk about them, but we also need s need to talk about our sisters in the faith as well. And and so that's why I'm excited about this series.

Matt Mead: Yeah, one of the phrases that you used in the series was sometimes we can be unbalanced or we can be incomplete in our understanding. What are some of the dangers that you think come from being unbalanced or incomplete in our coverage of these stories?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, both in the ancient world and in the modern world, even modern Christians, sometimes we we forget that we are co heirs with brothers and sisters are k co heirs in the kingdom and and I think sometimes we We think that women are less capable. I mean, we I I certainly believe that that there are different roles and responsibilities for men and women, but that doesn't mean that our sisters are any less faithful, any less courageous, any less bold, any less capable of of understanding and and teaching and leading and helping in in various ways in different times and different contexts, of course. But but I think sometimes we we We sometimes leave our sisters out of the conversation. And not only does that not do service to the the sisters that we're highlighting, that these women in scripture, but I think that there is something that we are failing to to impart to our sisters today and helping to empower them to know that they have a role in this story as well. That this is not a man's world, this world to come that that that we're a part of as Christians, and that that we are all. co-laborers in in the kingdom. And I want our sisters in Christ to know that they have a a place and a role and that they can be just as fearless and faithful as their male counterparts are.

Matt Mead: Absolutely. No, I think it's really important and appreciate you doing this series and as we think about, you know, the different texts that we have in scripture when it comes to you know highlighting the role of women. Sometimes you have stories that you could spend entire series on, whether it's Esther or Ruth or even some of the the ladies in in the New Testament, the Marys and and other people. But sometimes we have these stories that we don't even get the names of the women that are involved. So how do you go about choosing which stories to do, but also, you know, what is your perception on maybe the fact that some stories we get more info about the people and some stories we get just the bare minimum and what are we supposed to do with that?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, it's so interesting. And we could spend this whole podcast, I think, talking about this subject, both in the intention of the the biblical authors, that sometimes they didn't include a wife's name, for instance. Like we don't know who Noah's wife was, like who what was her name? Like surely she has a tremendous story to tell. And there's quite a story that that we could learn about Noah's wife, but we don't know some of these wives' names. but then there are other women in scripture that we do have their names. And there's actually a lot written. These daughters of Xalofa had, for instance, are written about several times. And almost every time they're listed by name, these five sisters are listed by name. That's a lot of real estate in the ancient world. When they are pinning this on an ancient in a scroll, that that real estate, the the financial cost that it costs to write something down, not just in in how much space it takes up. But also in the actual literal cost of writing something down, and then the scribes having to copy it every time they copied the scriptures, it's a big deal to record anyone's name, much less these five sisters recording their name over and over again. But in spite of the fact that we know their names and their names are repeated multiple times in scripture, their story comes up here in in in Numbers chapter 27, and then later in the same in the same book, and then also in Joshua. Not only are they mentioned several times and named several times, most Christians today don't know their names. And so there's on the one hand the the fact that sometimes the the women kind of get overlooked in the beginning, the original telling of the story by the biblical authors for whatever reason, obviously inspired by God. So he has his reasons why certain people are included, both male and female, and some people are not included, male and female. And then There's the the modern intention. Like, why do we skip over some stories? Both, again, not just women, but but men as well. There's a lot of people in scripture that are mentioned, that are named, that we have their stories, and for whatever reason, we just haven't made their stories known. And it's really fun, I think, to to go through scripture and find these stories that that are there, that are highlighted, that the the inspired authors wanted us to know and to remember, and to actually remember them and say, hey, How come we haven't talked about this story in a while? Or how come we how come none of us know about the daughters of Zalofahad? I know that's never was never in a children's Bible story book when I was growing

Matt Mead: Mm-hmm.

Wes McAdams: up. So I'm I'm glad that we have the opportunity to to talk about them. And and again, it's not just women that get overlooked. There's a lot of stories in scripture, a lot of men in scripture that that are also overlooked. And it's it's fun, I think, to to go back and and find some of these nuggets that are there, these gold nuggets that sometimes we we have to pan for a little bit, but I'm I'm glad we we get the opportunity to do that.

Matt Mead: Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that when we got the order of worship on Saturday that comes out, I I read the title of the sermon and I had to go back and and look up the story. It was not top of mind for me, so thank you for for doing that. You know, it kinda made me think of, you know, my kids are of the age that we did a lot of the the ABC books and there's a different, you know, letter associated with a different name, and it's kind of like sometimes they really have to stretch towards the end. So if somebody's got a ABC Bible book that they're working on, daughters of Zlofidad, there at the end might be just what they need to finish it up. But when you

Wes McAdams: Absolutely.

Matt Mead: when you think about this story, what do you hope that that we take away from it? You gave us three takeaways at the end, which we'll talk about in a second, but you obviously and I think we all do as well after hearing it, can appreciate that it's important. What makes it important?

Wes McAdams: Yeah. I mean these these daughters for anybody that's not familiar, the the fact that the the inheritance of the promised land was going to go to the male heir of the family, it made it made sense for lots of different reasons. And that's the way the law was written that the male heir would be the one to inherit the portion and to steward the portion and would kind of be in charge of the family's inheritance. Well, Xalofa had died without having any sons, and so His name, his branch within the clan was about to disappear. And these daughters stood up and they they stood up for what was right, and not only for their own sake, but also for future generations of their family and for past generations of their family, it would be like their father never existed. It would be like Xalofahead's name was completely cut off if they hadn't stood up and and advocated for what was fair, what was right, what was just, what actually other nations and other civilizations Had rules like this that were written into their laws to protect a family's inheritance. If there was no son, it would pass to daughters. But in the law of Moses, that didn't exist. And it would have been really easy, I guess, to just say, well, it doesn't it there, there is no accommodation for us. And so we'll just have to marry some other Israelite male, some other family, and and marry into some other tribe, some other group, and our father's name will just be cut off. And And that he will have no inheritance in the promised land. But they weren't willing to do that. They weren't willing to leave the status quo as it was. They were willing to stand up and speak up and say, this isn't right. And our father deserves to have his name remembered and his family deserves a place in the promised land. And we want a place in the promised land. We want to be part of the family and part of the story. And I think that there are times in our life where we need to stand up and speak up. And I think that this gives us a great example of. Of what that looks like, not to do it rebelliously, not to do it as somebody who's trying to burn things down or or tear things down, but somebody who, as I said on Sunday, loves God, loves God's people, loves the law of God, but but has found a a real genuine hole, a gap where people are not being served, where people are not being taken care of, and their injustice is happening and and God listens and God responds and God changes the law based on their petition, based on their request. And I think that's amazing. I think it's amazing. It's a revelation of the character of God who wants us to be bold, who wants us to ask, who wants us to come before his throne and do so with confidence. And I think there's so much we can learn from this story.

Matt Mead: Several things to to drill down on there. Maybe we'll start with talking about the nature of the law itself and this idea that this is something that is teaching them about God. This is also something that's teaching them about how to be in relationship with God. But do you want to spend a minute on maybe what makes it a little different from maybe the codified legislation that we have today, or just to talk a little bit about what the Torah was and the the purpose it was supposed to play in their lives?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, great question. I love talking about this because I I think and and I've I've come to to understand this over the years, that the law and the way they thought of the law was more like instruction in wisdom, that it was something they were supposed to meditate on and it was supposed to make them wise. Not that it was going to cover every potential scenario, because there were going to be lots of potential scenarios that weren't covered by the law. And that wasn't the the point. The point wasn't that it would cover everything. But that it would shape them into being God-honoring covenant partners with God in wise ways so that they would know how to handle those situations that weren't specifically covered verbatim. And this is one of those situations. And now the law beg was changed in order to accommodate these kinds of situations, in order to specify this is what you do in these situations. But they had been shaped by the law. These daughters of Xalopahad. Had been shaped by the law to know God cares about us. And even though it's not spelled out and specified in the law, I know based on the law what kind of God He is. And I know I can come before Him with confidence, knowing that He will, He will listen and He will accommodate us. And I think that's really important for the way that we look back and read the Law, that the Law. Was supposed to shape people into being wise. And I think we need to learn to read both the old and the new testament that way to understand that God wants us to be wise people. There's not always a line that God draws and say, okay, this is, you know, it's not always black and white. And we we have to be really careful, I think, that we're not trying to find where's the line and try to get us close to the line without stepping over, or that we're always worried about every T is is crossed, every I is dotted. It's not really how the law worked. It shaped It was supposed to shape people into being people who loved God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and loved their neighbor as themselves. And there's gonna be lots of scenarios that come up where we have to wisely determine what's the loving thing to do in this situation? What what does the law equip me and empower me to do? And even more so now, who Now we are led by the the spirit and not by the law. And we are not under the law, but we are under grace. This is Romans, this is Galatians. We're set free not to do our own will, but we're set free to do the will of God. And hopefully, the entirety of scripture has shaped us into being wise people who know how to respond, even when we don't have a code telling us. This is what you do every time this scenario happens because we live in a different culture, in a different time, very different people, but we're still being led by and guided by and will be judged by the exact same God who expects us to us to love him with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves.

Matt Mead: I appreciate it. you know, kinda what you brought out about Moses as well. You know, we know from different times in the wilderness journey he was spread thin by, you know, a lot of people coming to him asking him to adjudicate certain situations and this might have been an easy one to take a shortcut on and just say, Hey, it is what it is, but he instead takes it to the Lord and the Lord weighs in on the situation. How do you think we apply that type of logic to our day to day lives and and and how can we, you know, maybe Remember to learn from both the daughters and from Moses in the way that he handles this situation.

Wes McAdams: Yeah, we are so quick to respond. I remember somebody telling me one time that in certain tribal cultures, it was very common to to wait to respond to someone. Even if you knew the answer right off the top of your head, it was really rude to respond to a well thought out question with a really quick response that you are showing the gravity of their question. By waiting and responding slowly and thinking about and meditating on what your response is going to be. And I think sometimes we pride ourselves on answering quickly. I know the answer to this. I know the answer to that. And we want to respond really quickly. I think that we need to learn from Moses and say, I'm gonna have to take that to the Lord. I'm gonna have to pray about that. I'm gonna have to meditate on that. And I'm not expecting God to answer me the way that He answered Moses. And I don't think any leadership today should expect that. God does lead us and teach us, and we need to not assume that our tradition or our assumptions or our background or our own intuitions or our gut instinct or what we call common sense that these things are the best guide, that the Spirit of God is our guide, and He speaks to us through the collective wisdom of the church. He speaks to us in our worship, he speaks to us through the scriptures, he speaks to us through the person of Jesus. And we need to we need to go. And sometimes we need to meditate on the cross and and just reflect on what is the cross and what is the sacrifice of Jesus? What is the servanthood of Jesus? What does the selflessness of Jesus teach me that I need to do in this particular situation? And I think we need to be slow to respond to things. This is James's whole point when he says, be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry. You're gonna hear some new things. And the only way to respond in a wise, godly way is to be be slow in your response. Don't assume you already have the answer. Don't assume you already know. You need to take the posture of a student, the posture of an apprentice, the posture of a learner. And it would have been really easy for somebody like Moses to kind of have his ego on the line and be like, hey, listen, ladies. We gave you the law, we told you the way that it works. And if it doesn't make accommodations for your situation, that's tough. Get over it. This isn't my problem. You know, listen the first time. He didn't do that. Instead, he humbly said, I'll take it to the Lord. And he took it to the Lord. And the Lord's response might have surprised people because the Lord said, They're right. And accommodation does need to be made. And you do need to give them a possession in the land. And so it takes a lot of humility to. To answer well and sometimes the only way to answer well and answer wisely is to answer slowly.

Matt Mead: And you you gave some of some of this guidance already about some of the instructions that that you would give people when knowing about when to stand up and speak out, when to, you know, enter into situations. But as we're thinking about, you know, that back and forth, you know, in this particular situation, it's instructive about the Lord changing the way and and then the ladies getting the inheritance. but sometimes the stories don't go that way, right? I mean it's very possible that there are other times when we could petition in a cause that we think is right and and other, you know, factors or other wisdom is brought in. What do you think we can learn from those situations?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, yeah. I assume you mean like if we bring something to the Lord and we say, This this is this is the way it should be, or God, please give me this. And and and I said on Sunday that that God loves you and He listens to you and He wants you to plead your case with Him, but He doesn't always agree with you. And I think it's really important to remember that that God doesn't always agree with you. And that's how you know that you're following a real living God and not a figment of your own imagination. Tim Keller was really famous for talking about that. That when your God always agrees with you, he's a God of your own imagination. He is not the God of Scripture. The God of Scripture is a real living person, a divine person, not a human, but a divine person. And he's not always going to agree with you. And again, that being slow to speak and slow to become angry, quick to listen, like that applies both to The person who is adjudicating a situation and is in a leadership position, but also to the people who are pleading their own case or the case of others. And we need to say, This is what I think, this is what I want. We need to be able to take that to the Lord and be able to take yes for an answer or no for an answer or not right now for an answer. And sometimes those are the answers, and and we need to be okay with that. Even Jesus Takes his petition to the Father. Jesus is God, and he takes his petition to the Father. And he says, If it's your will, let this cup pass for me, but not my will, your will be done. And that has to be our attitude. We have to be able to take our petition to the Lord and do so boldly with confidence, but also at the end of the day, be willing to say, Not my will, but your will be done.

Matt Mead: Absolutely. No, that's great. Great guidance to think about. We did get a reader question or a listener question this week, and it's always a blessing to do that. this is from our sister Daphne Veal. And she writes, How old were the five daughters of Zeloafat? These were strong women at the time, unmarried girls who demanded their inheritance. It is very empowering to see such young girls be bold in their faith. Do we know how old these daughters were?

Wes McAdams: No, we don't. And I'm glad we I'm glad Daphne sent this in because it gives us a chance to talk about the rabbis. So in in some of the Jewish writings, there's a lot of speculations about the daughters of Zalophad. And and in fact, Zelophahad is actually associated in some of these rabbinic writings with the the man who gathered wood on the Sabbath day and died for his sin. The daughters mention that that their father died in the wilderness because of his own sin, not Not the sins of Korra. He didn't follow Korah. Now, I don't I don't think they're they're mentioning a specific episode. I don't think there's any reason to necessarily to say that he died, like was struck down because of his sin. but I think they just meant that he wasn't, there's no reason for him to be cut off. He wasn't part of a a rebellion like the rebellion of Korra. But there there's all kinds of speculation, not only about who Xalofahead was, but also his daughters. And the the rabbis said. That they were 40 years old before they married, which would be have been incredibly unusual. And they they surmised this because they were so wise and they were waiting to marry men within their tribe, as the the tribe of Manasseh insisted that they do, and that they wanted to make sure that the men that they married were worthy. And so they waited until they were 40. Now, according to tradition and according to that that ancient way of thinking, that if A person waited that long to get married that they weren't going to be able to have children. And obviously, these women had children, and that's kind of the whole point of the story because they continue on the family line. But they they even again they speculate that, well, maybe their the childbirth was miraculous because they gave birth after 40. All of this is outside of scripture. We don't have any evidence that any of that is true. they do think that they were older, older daughters of Xalopahad, but we really don't know. They could have been very young at at the time. again we have the stories of them getting married later on in the in the book of Numbers, chapter 36, about them marrying within the tribe of Manasseh, but we don't know how old they were. But regardless of their age, these were younger, you know, relatively younger women. And and Daphne's exactly right. They their their story is incredibly inspiring because they were very bold in their faith, regardless of their age.

Matt Mead: And you connected I I believe their ancestry to to Joseph, was that correct?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, that's right, yeah.

Matt Mead: how do you think Maybe some of that psychological like we have within that story, you know, the desire to have a male heir and you know, maybe, you know, again we don't have the story, but you know, growing up in this context, do you think these daughters would have dealt with some of that psychological tension of probably their father wanting to have a male heir and yet he keeps having daughters? Like for some people that might decrease their boldness or that might decrease their feeling of of worth Worthiness and inheritance, but i it doesn't seem to in this situation. Any any thoughts about that?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, I haven't really thought about that. That's a really good question. And and who knows how their you know, again, we don't know their mom. Like who who was their mother? We don't know the story of of her, but we do know that they were shaped by the Torah and they're that they were shaped by the law of Moses. And and maybe even before the the law was written down, before Genesis was written down, hopefully, and I would like to believe that the story of the creation was passed down. To these Hebrew children, even while they were in Exodus, so that they knew the story of creation and how God made both men and women, both Adam and Eve, to be his images in the world, which was an incredibly unique idea. Of course, th their their ancestors would have grown up in Egypt. Everybody from Joseph, between Joseph and Zalophag. All of those generations had grown up in Egypt, and the Egyptians believed that Pharaoh was the image of God, but they certainly didn't believe that slaves were the image of God. And they didn't believe that the men and the women were images of God. But that's the story of creation. The story of creation is that every human being, regardless of their ethnicity, regardless of their gender, regardless of their socioeconomic status, we are all the image of God. And that That should shape us to be the kind of people that Zalophad's daughters were, to be able to say, I am also an image bearer of God. And yes, maybe my dad wanted a son, but he didn't have a son. And that shouldn't mean that the rest of us are cut off from this story because we are also the image of God. And this is our story, and this is our family, and this is our inheritance. And I would like to believe that that story, just the creation account, the first, what we would call the first couple of chapters of Genesis. should shape people, both men and women, especially within the nation of Israel, to think this way about being human and being a part of this story. And as you move through Genesis and you move into the story of Abraham, to know this, this is our great, great, great grandfather. This this is our story and we are a part of this story just as much as if our father had had a son.

Matt Mead: So let's maybe take that, you know, one step further to to to our situation now, not directly our situation. We're both fathers of of sons, but let's say if if you and your wife had a daughter, what would be the takeaway you would want to to instill in your daughter from from this particular story?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, I I I hope for all of us, for men, for women, for moms, for dads, for daughters and sons, that we all have this spiritual imagination to say we are a part of a story, a story that includes every single one of us, and we all have a unique role to play. Every single person with every single giftedness and every single situation, we all have a unique role to play, but we are all equally important in the story. And we need to embrace our role in the story. I think the real problem for all of us is that we are tempted to give up this story that revolves around Jesus, in which we are all major characters for another story, a story that's that's fictional, in which I'm the main character and the story revolves around me. And constantly our world is telling us that you are a story in and of yourself. You are the main character of your own story. You go do you. But that's a very small story. It's a very small story that revolves around me. I want to be a part of the story that the daughters of Zolofahead are part of. I I want to be their brother. And I want a story that revolves around Jesus. It revolves around this people of Abraham. I want to be a descendant of Abraham. And I hope that men and women, that every single one of us embrace our part in this story. Because I think that's what they were doing. And I I hope that every little girl, you know, not only embraces Who they can be in the world and what they can do in the world. But we're bit we're a part of a bigger story than that. That that we embrace our role in this story, in the story of Scripture, in the story that again culminates in Jesus, but that we all get to be major players in there, there are no side characters. We are all major players in this story, but we're not the main character. And we need to not trade in the story of Scripture, the story of the gospel for our own story, in which we're the main character.

Matt Mead: I think that's a great word to end on. Thank you for sharing that. As we look towards to next week and I believe this next week is our last week in this series. What's coming what's coming next week?

Wes McAdams: Yeah, yeah. We have the story from Bethany of Jesus being anointed and and this costly perfume that is being used on on Jesus and and how people kind of threw a fit about that and how we we might also throw a fit about that. Well, what about the poor people? And and shouldn't we share this with poor people? And Jesus is okay with this extra extravagance. And and there's a story here for all of us to learn, a story from our sister again for us to learn, but a story that we can all apply to our life.

Matt Mead: Thank you again for reminding us of the Daughters of Zolofidad and looking forward to this next week. If you are in the Metroplex, we would love to have you join us at McDermott Road or we'd love to have you join us online as well. So thank you so much for listening to the PS Podcast. Have a great rest of the week.

Wes McAdams: Thanks so much for listening to P.S., the Post Sermon Podcast. To find out more about this podcast or about the Church of Christ on McDermott Road, you can visit our website at ccmcdermott.org slash P.S. If this has been an encouragement to you, we also hope you will rate and review the show wherever you're listening, as well as share it with a friend. Because we believe sermons are not just for Sunday, but for our whole week and our whole life.