Glenn Mills: Alright, and we've got a timer. So here we go. We have switched platforms. So we are trying something new this week. so hopefully everything works well. here we are for season three, episode five. And Wayne, how you doing today? Good to see ya. Wayne Goldsmith: Well, I'm doing good as you know that I was out walking yesterday afternoon and as happens in the place that we live there was a two meter Eastern Brown Snake. And for those of you who can be bothered, open up your device after the show, of course, and Google Eastern Brown Snake. And they're they're like a little bit like being hit by a truck. If you don't get medical intervention within thirty minutes, you're up there with the angels, if that's where you deserve to be. And there was a big one out where I was walking yesterday and Quite often when you see beautiful animals who are that dangerous, you try to stay away from them. But of course every Australian thinks that they're Steve Irwin, the crocodile hunter. So I thought I'll go and have a little bit of a tasty look and get a little bit close up and they do this thing a little bit like a mini cobra. They lift their head up off the ground, which basically says, Yeah, I can see you and you don't come any closer. So yeah, I think after that stage, I turned chicken and I ran very fast but It's always good to see wildlife here, as long as they head off in the bush and leave you alone. But yeah. Glenn Mills: Yeah, I mean I I like the picture of the koala or you know, a little bit better than the the brown snake. I mean that was that was a little nicer. Do you have any jokes for us today? Wayne Goldsmith: look I've I've got yeah I'll tell you one I really like. I don't know, it's if you've got a sick sense of humour is my my grief counsellor died. He was so good at his job though, I don't really care. Ha ha ha. Glenn Mills: I've been waiting to use that. We have sound effects now. So there's more. That's exactly Wayne Goldsmith: It's like going on Letterman. It's like going on Letterman. Glenn Mills: it. So so anyway, that that's that's part of our new platform. So I just have to I have to get better at it to be switching back and forth between things. So anyway, I just wanted to I've been waiting for that. So Wayne Goldsmith: It's insane. Glenn Mills: So all right, well we've got We've got this one. We're we're actually going to record another one very, very soon with our friend about social media for kids. And but today we're gonna be talking about building and growing successful swimming clubs and how can a coach build a great swim team. And so so we're we're gonna get started with of course everybody has the dreams of having a successful program. so I I mean, you know, the the idea is what does it take? and where do you start? And what does success look like to you? So we're gonna go through a lot of different things. and Wayne, you've outlined a tremendous amount of of things that you know you really have to think about that. I think is it's great that you've put all these pieces together. and y you know, really thinking about these, you know, I wish I would have known these when I was much younger to really think through all of the steps because it really does shape the things that you need to think about. And it's, you know, with with age comes wisdom. and it's a lot of questions that I do ask people now when you know, when when we're talking about technique and and you know, who do you want to be known as, sort of thing. And I think the first one really kicks it off, which is your identity. Decide who you are, you know, before you get started. Who are you and who do you want to be known as? Wayne Goldsmith: And this is this is an important one. You know, I I find a lot in the industry that we're in, mate, that that a lot of coaches, when you're having discussions, they're a few steps ahead of maybe where they need to be because they haven't haven't spent time on this. They want to talk about breaststroke drills or dry land training routines or core stability or video technology. All those things are important. But underpinning all of that is Who are you? What what what do you actually stand for? What do you believe in? What do you when you walk into a pool with a group, what do you want the other teams to think of? Do they want to look you want them to go, wow, professional, well trained, disciplined, connected, together? Or do you just go, I don't really care, we're just there to for swim. I think coaches undervalue a lot of this stuff, Milsey. But as you know, I work in professional football a lot. And this decision and this process of deciding who you are, what you stand for, what you believe in, what what your trademark is, that it it's it underpins everything on the type of players that we recruit, on our development models, on the way we train. Everything is based on that. And I've been really lucky. I was at Manchester United and got to meet some of Sir Alex Ferguson's recruitment team and I've I've spent some time with the Canterbury Crusaders rugby, we're a dominant rugby force. in the southern hemisphere and other successful teams. And you say to them, How you guys been so good for so long? The first thing out of their mouth is usually something like, Well, we know who we are. We know what we stand for. We know what it means to be us. And then we develop and recruit people in who grow and sustain that. But that first step is to decide, well, hang on, what what do I want to do? Do I want to be a sprint coach? Do I want to be a great age group coach? Do I want to make this a happy place? Do I You've got to go through that process 'cause then believe it or not, everything's pretty easy once you make that decision. But you start with deciding who you are as a group, as a team, as a club and you as a coach. Glenn Mills: So in in a lot of the Zoom meetings that we that we do on our Tuesdays, I I share this video a lot. And this is a video of a student that I worked with for a long time and a 10-year-old. And I do say this quite a bit. Who do you want to be known as as a coach? Who do you want to be known as as a swimmer? And and this is a video that was sent to me by a parent of a 10-year-old. And and I ask everybody, What's different about all of these kids at this point? And the answer is really nothing. Okay. So they all kind of reach the water at the same time. And so as we continue it on, it's pretty easy to tell what's different now. And there's one kid that's, you know, you you can obviously say that, you know, this kid's doing a lot of underwater dolphins. But how hard is that to teach? And this Wayne Goldsmith: yeah. Glenn Mills: this is not difficult. All he's doing is streamlining, and you can see every other kid in here is is up before the flags. And all he's doing is streamlining and dolphin kicking. All this is is patience. There's nothing magical about what he's doing. This isn't that he's an incredible athlete. This is simply that he's patient enough to stay there. And so imagine that all these kids were simply taught patience. And so who do you want to be known as as a coach? And if all these ten year olds were taught that, wouldn't you know, or if they weren't taught that, wouldn't you want everyone to know that that was your swimmer? Wayne Goldsmith: absolutely, Milsey. That's a great example, isn't it? It it's because a lot of coaches, when I talk to coaches about this, a lot of one a lot of coaches will say, I'm a technique coach. You know, technique's really important to me. And then you see all their kids come up before the flags and you go, Well, hang on, probably. Or you'll see them breathe head up, bum down turns, or you'll see them breathing every stroke and fly and finishing with their head up. And you go, Well, maybe you want to be a technique coach or you think you're a technique coach, but this identity piece means you're living your identity and people and you know, I I walk into pools all over the world. I'm about to go to New Zealand for short course and I've got a few club visits to do and I've made my mind up within five minutes what sort of club this is, what their identity is. If I walk in and the team captain comes over and says, Hey Wayne, great to meet you. I'm that team captain, can I get you a drink? Yeah, coach will be with you in a moment. Let me introduce you to some of the members of the team. We'll be starting in 10 minutes, going, okay, independent, leader, respectful, okay, good start. And then I go over and it's five minutes before workout starts. And they're all there stretching, they've got all the gear there, they're filled up the water bottles, they're talking to each other, they're smiling fun, but they're ready. And it's 359 PM, they're in the water, they're getting on the blocks 30 seconds before it's due to go. Start with a race dive. I go, wow. These guys, they know who they are, they know what they stand for and they're living it. And I would and you think, well, good things will come out of this program. And and what's that phrase? I wish i it's an American might be the Mark Twain or it might have been one of your presidents who said who you are screams louder than anything you say. It might have been Roosevelt, I'd I'd have to look it up. I think it was US president. But it's Glenn Mills: Yeah. Something like that, yeah. Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: a wonderful line that who you who you are and what you do screams louder than anything you say. It's a It's a wonderful phrase. Glenn Mills: Well, i you know, when when Rachel and I spent the year and a half in the R V, what we could have told you immediately after that trip is that we know everything about your team within the first five minutes of watching you. Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah, yeah. Glenn Mills: And that's what we learned is that the warm up tells us almost everything we need to know about what's gonna happen from there on. And and it really is that true. The push offs, the you know, the the warm up of your team. really says a lot about who that team is. you know, the integrity of how everything starts. I one of the most one of the most influential moments of my life was actually I was with Coach Gambrel in Japan watching watching a team warm up over there and the swimmers led the warm up while the coaches all had a meeting discussing what was going to happen during practice. So the older swimmers were the ones taking all the younger swimmers, you know, or the leaders, the captains, were taking everybody else through the warm-up on dry land, the stretching and everything, while the coaches were all meeting about what was going to happen. And to me, it was literally like a dojo. It was and and that's the way I saw it, you know, doing some martial arts, that there was a respect for the pool. And You know, I love having fun around the pool and everything, but it's like once you step into this arena, there's a respect for this thing. And so, and I try to I try to make sure that the swimmers that I work with that, you know, once we cross this threshold, that there is this respect for this area that, you know, you're gonna do things a certain way once you cross over this threshold that, you know I like to have fun, but the movements that you make in here are purposeful, that that there's that there's a a reverence to this this area. you know, because Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah. Glenn Mills: if you do if you do things wrong, it's gonna you're gonna carry it with you for a long time. Wayne Goldsmith: But you you've nailed it, Millsy, is is you know, I I you try to you try to talk logic with coaches and you say, just think about for a moment that I've watched and you know, if you're working and mentoring a coach, you've got to have an honest relationship with him. because no point saying, Yeah, I love everything you do, it's really wonderful. Like we're watching Alice in Wonderland and and a Disney princess movie. You you've got to say, Look, if you want to improve, I'll tell you honestly what I see And I say, Now I I gotta tell you what I see, your swimmers turned up late. There were 20 swimmers in the pool but three water bottles. Most of them don't finish on the wall. They got in late during the drill work. Some of them didn't really understand what they were doing. They didn't always have it well. They didn't finish on the wall during the kick work. Some of them had their kickboard under their arm when they turned. Some of them touched, stood up, and went again. Now we're about to start the main set. Can you convince me that everything up to now has been an identity of inaccuracy, non precise, any old thing will do. But now the main set's on, everything's gonna be perfect and we're doesn't happen. It's that start the way you want to finish. And we talked about that before. It's a great line Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: that if the culture is there and the identity is there, then what you see from the start is a demonstration of who you are. You can't, I think a lot of coaches go, Yeah but if this does stuff it doesn't matter. But when you got the main set, we hit our times, we do well that's great. But if it's If it's imprecise and inaccurate and sloppy to that point, chances are it's just going to reflect in everything you do. You go to a meet and under pressure all those things get exposed. So the absolute most important thing, who are you? What do you stand for? What does that look like? And that then flows through everything you do. Glenn Mills: Yep. And think about what it looks like to be you. Wayne Goldsmith: Well you just said it, you gotta see it, don't you? If you Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: I can say to you, Milsey, I'm a really disciplined, hardworking professional. If that's what it what it is. If you walk in and see me asleep at my desk with a case of beer, it'd probably just be Tuesday. But if you see that and there's mess all over the floor and there's work that's not done, Glenn Mills: Wait, I need the sound effects for that. Wayne Goldsmith: and half open pizza boxes and you know, it it's again it's you you walk in and It's funny you say that, but you know, you'll you'll walk in and coaches all say, We've got a really good core programme, working a lot on our core and you go, Wow, I can't wait to see this and you'll see kids, you know, they're planks, they've got sagging here and some of are here and some of them have got their heads up talking around and they're supposed to hold it for a minute and some of them are going, Well, thirty eight seconds is close enough and you're going, Well yeah, great. You have got a great core program, but the way it's been actually executed is not consistent with what you're trying to achieve. So your outcome and and I think a lot of coaches make I I just don't think they understand this enough because we're we're so I how many coaching courses have you and I been to or been a part of? All people want to talk about is technique, drills, skills, dry land, nutrition, hydration. Nobody I I can't think there's too many places you go where they start off with right. beginning your journey as a coach, we're gonna spend twenty minutes talking about what does that look like? What is the sort of club that you wanna build and grow? It's the most important conversation you can have. Glenn Mills: man, I'm telling you, there's a there's a show coming on ESPN in the next couple weeks called Saban. It's all about Nick Saban, and it's got all these, all of his athletes and some other coaches and Kirby Smart's gonna be on. I can't wait to watch this thing. It's all behind the scenes stories from the athletes. Wayne Goldsmith: I'll have to write that down. Glenn Mills: Yeah. I can't wait to see this thing. Obviously, you know. I'm excited because I went to Alabama and you know, and he's had such a storied career at Alabama, but just the man, you know, and what he's done. And, you know, I it'll be interesting to see how much good there is and you know, I'm sure there'll be some other stories, but you know, what a legendary coach. And it's gonna be interesting because there's there's already some hype about how he's shaped some of these young men, but I'm I'm sure there's some other things that we'll we'll learn about him as well. But there's someone that has has basically said, here's how people see me. And this is how I want people to see me. And this is how I want, you know, so he's defined himself, but he's defined himself through winning. so it'll be very interesting. But that's gonna be one that you know, a lot of this is how do you build a successful team? so you know Wayne Goldsmith: Do you think, Milsey, you know you said before right at the outset, we talked about, you know, wisdom and maturity. Do you think if we were standing in front of a group of coaches in their late twenties, early thirties and did this conversation, do you think they'd be bored out of their brain, go, man, yeah, that's all airy fairy stuff. That's yeah, that great. Sounds good, but I just wanna know how many butterfly repeats all I gotta do to teach someone to swim two fifteen. D do you think you've got to get to a certain age or stage of development where you understand how important this is because or it is i Glenn Mills: Man, I yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: because at some point if you go and talk to Gambrel, for example, if you would have a chat with him about this, or you talk to Marshe or you talk to Eddie or any of the great coaches, they would say, Yeah, you've got to stand for something, you gotta live it. They they the the great coaches know it. How do you get this message across to You know, coaches in their first year of coaching, twenty eight years of age, college degree, great sports science and and tech understanding. How do you get it the message to younger coaches? Glenn Mills: I guess that's the thing is that you don't know how important it is until it's too late, probably. And Wayne Goldsmith: Well Glenn Mills: if and if you can if you can really get that point across that you have this opportunity of building your legacy starting from a young age, that you can be this person for the the longer you're this person, the the bigger that legacy is. And you know It is just so important to be who you are for the longest period of time possible. and you know, and defining that. you know, so this opportunity for a young coach to really cement themselves, fem female and male, to really say, This is who I am, and and really committing to that. And being themselves. you know, it who knows what the great coach of 20 years, 30 years from now is gonna be. And so don't follow somebody else's pattern. You may be the pattern. And to define that is is more important than following you you can't follow, you know, Bob's a friend, Bob Bowman's a friend and a a great coach, and Eddie's a friend and a great coach. And You know, all these guys, I've known them forever. You can't follow They're who knows what's going to be great in 20, 30 years. A young coach listening to this, you're going to be great 20 and 30 years from now. And everything is going to be different. You will define it. So you have to, you know, you're going to invent it. So invent it now. Wayne Goldsmith: That's but that's so true. I mean I I I've had a bit of an interest in just people have been great in all fields and I I I was reading about Picasso and Picasso studied under some great masters and he learnt I mean he was doing landscapes and portraits and really understood his craft and then said, But I'm gonna do it that way And so mastered the basics, understood what how to mix colours of light and shadow and all then went, Yeah, but my way's that way and Mozart was the same, classical training, lots of great tutors, you know, when you read about his life then said, Right, I'm gonna write music that way and and Glenn Mills: Right. Wayne Goldsmith: everyone has been successful that and even more recently, look at people like Jobs. You know, Jobs said I can see a day when there'll be a a computer on the desk of every home in the United States and at the time computers filled a room and people go, You're Glenn Mills: Mm-hmm. Wayne Goldsmith: an idiot. But you know, again, he's done this he's done the study, he's done the work. understands what it looks like and then said, right, I'm gonna do that. And I agree with you. I I think you you learn the basics, you look at the masters and you you take some of the best that they've got to demonstrate. But yeah, it's who you are will be the driving force of success through your program more than degrees, more than than anything else. This stuff really matters, coaches. Glenn Mills: I I think I think that would probably be the biggest message that you and I could probably get across to the young coaches through this is that if you copy, you are copying an antiquated pattern. You are copying something that is successful today and especially with kids that will are trying to be successful ten years from now. And so what's the point? Okay, it it just doesn't make any sense. You have to be inventive. You have to be creative. look at technology. Technology ten years ago is not the technology of today. And so the kids and the techniques and the probably even the rules ten years from now won't be the same. We don't know. So you have to you have to look forward. You and I did did this talk two years ago about the planning for twenty thirty-two. you know, we we talked about this. When we first started this podcast, and then we had our sabbatical, you know, with both of us moving. so when you're talking about defining a great team and we're talking about young coaches, goodness, you know, you have to be a visionary, you have to see forward. And so this the inspiration for seeing forward is seeing different and being a Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah. Glenn Mills: you know. Wayne Goldsmith: And we're seeing that, aren't we? We're seeing Glenn Mills: Being brave. Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: this is probably the biggest d debate in a little bit off topic, but this is this is one of the big debates in the sport at the moment. We've got the a lot of the senior coaching groups just digging their heels in and saying it's about aerobic base and about huge volume training and all those things and it worked for them. And then we've got the other side saying, Well, hang on a minute, there's a lot more fifty metre events. There's gonna be inevitably, I think, four by fifty meter mixed medley relays, there's gonna be that's the way the world aquatics is going. So you're gonna see all those sort of things. And so you're a young coach coming through. You're gonna be influenced by the greatness of the senior coaches but what they think. But the future could be very different. And you can either Glenn Mills: Totally. Wayne Goldsmith: say, well, I know where World Aquatics is going and when NCAA's is going and know that but I'm gonna do it the old way. Well nobody wins for very long doing it the old way. And you could be the one by going, what do I stand for? I stand for enjoyment. fun so the kids keep coming back is my first thing. What else do I want to stand for? We're about speed, power, explosion, acceleration and great technique. All right, well that might be what you believe. And y and you know the the people who've tried to change things, Millsy and I I did something the other day, put up a quote by Macchieli, the the great Italian philosopher who basically said if well it could have been Australian swim cage. And Glenn Mills: He wasn't a Australian swim coach? Okay, all right. Wayne Goldsmith: but he But he I mean he said that everyone who's great will try to do things differently. And as soon as you try to do things differently, you'll have people saying you're an idiot, it's wrong because it's not the way it's always been done. And some people might get on board and say, Well, there's an outside chance this might work, so we'll give you a little bit of support. And so you've got to be courageous. You've got to be inquisitive, courageous, Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: dare to be different, all those things and go forward. But if that's you, be who you are and live that through your coaching. Don't try to be anyone else that's Not very good call. Glenn Mills: I had a meeting today with a a mutual friend of ours that we're gonna have on here, Andrew Moss. and so Wayne Goldsmith: Mossy, if you don't mind. Glenn Mills: yeah, Mossy. Yep. And Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah. Glenn Mills: he talked about a brave soul that sailed around the world and taught people how to sail and he's back in the swim game, and so you and I are gonna have him on and we're gonna talk about all kinds of really cool things. And again, how things have changed since he's been in and out of the sport and in the sport. And so, and again, someone that's a visionary and and and done things very, you know, from the old way to the new way and and how things have changed. So, from what you know, so you you can't do this on your own. So you've gotta bring in people. So where do you find these guys? You know, and gals. Where do you find the the right people to bring in to to work with you. Wayne Goldsmith: And I think the this is where the visionary stuff and the who I am really matters because where I've seen the coaches who really succeed, 'cause you've there's two paths you can go with an assistant coach. You can go, I'm really good, just watch me, I'll tell you all about how great I am. I'm gonna get another Wayne. And because I want somebody who'll do what I I think, say what I think, coach the way I do, 'cause I'm right. The smarter coaches will go I'm really good at this. That's me. I know what my skills are, but gee, I'm awful at this. I need a coach who will give us a balance. So that could be, you know, I'm a I've got a lot of knowledge in sports science, got a of knowledge in this and that. All right, there's my strengths. You know what I'm weak in? I I know absolutely nothing about relay swimming. I know nothing. I'm I'm awful in starts and turns. my understanding of backstrokes not that good. I'm not really good on tour with. So I'm gonna look for people whose skills complement me. So our program offers an holistic approach. So because some some swimmers might look at me and go, I don't like him. he's got a problem with his body odor. Could be anything. But the not everybody loves everybody. And but I might go, but okay, well, I know that I've got a connection with this group of swimmers, but I can't connect with these because I just don't understand that age group or I don't coach that group particularly well I'm going to look for someone who's different to me so that as a coaching team we offer a combination and I'm I'm doing some work with a football team at the moment. They're going through the process of looking for an assistant coach. And the it is it's interesting in the room. Some people say look we want someone who'll just fall in line, do what we want, follow this job description. The head coach, very very smart guy, says well no actually we need someone who completes the skill set as the coach and Often say to clubs, think of your coaching team as one big giant coach. That if you were building a giant coach, think of all the skill set as one big pot. And your head coach has got some of those, and your assistant coach and your junior coach has got some of that, but there's a set of skills that are missing in your coaching group. Fill the skill Glenn Mills: Mm. Wayne Goldsmith: set. And then you've really got something. But the easy way, the soft way, and most people just go popularity. And people I can get along with and I understand that. But the ones who get it go, what set of skills do we need to be the team that we want to be? Glenn Mills: Yeah. Well, obviously you can't have a team without the next one. And obviously people will look for swimmers where they always are, which is other teams, which is not necessarily the best place to look for them. So what are some suggestions where to find athletes? Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah, build relationships. That's the that's the key, isn't it? Is I I when I've got a a program often say, I w I wish we had some some swimmers, you know, might be a a a successful high school program or a college program and they're talking about not just recruiting but being the club of choice where people go, they're in a city and they go, Where would I choose to swim? What what is a club that's got a great reputation, great coaching, got everything I want? And how do you become the the club of choice? So part of it again is knowing who you are and living that but you know, what sort of relationships have you got with the learn to swim programs around your club? So I ideally build your own learn to swim program and have that feeding through. Or even you might be living in a city. What relationships have you got with clubs in rural and regional areas who are going to send kids to college near you and looking for someone they can trust? someone that they can get to know. I think if you just sit and wait for them to come in. Like you're you know those those people who open restaurants and they sit at the front stand at the front door looking at everybody who goes past hoping one's going to come in. and it does it generally doesn't happen. But you know what are your relationship like with if you're a high school coach with the learner swim programs and the junior age group programs in your city. If you're a college coach, what are your relationship like with all high school coaches around the country? If you're you're a club, what are your relationship like with all the learn to swim programs and schools, junior schools in your state? It you've got to build these connections and relationships. They're not gonna just come to you because your kids won a few medals at state championships. It's actively building and chasing relationships to come in to a program that's gonna give the kids a an incredible opportunity to be successful. So I know I don't know any other way, Milsy. It's about building relationships, creating a network that see you as the the club of choice. Glenn Mills: It's absolutely about building relationships on all levels. college coaches have to have to relate to club coaches. And I think you know, I I see that all the time, obviously, you know, with what Rachel does. and I've seen it for so long. There are some college coaches that feel elitist that look down on club coaches, but without club coaches, they're nothing. College coaches are nothing without club coaches. And you know, once you once you get a reputation of that kind of that feeling, you're done. Cause who's gonna send you their swimmers? You know. Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah. Well and look it's a ch it's like digging for gold, isn't it? That if you Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: think of it from that analogy, if if I'm running a college program and two kids walk in as as freshmen and they got great skills, great attitude, really fit, really sharp, part of a team, I'm gonna say, Where'd you guys come from? we come from Glen Mills program. I'm gonna go and see you and say, Man, I love what you're doing. Have you got any more? Yeah, actually I do. I do, Glenn Mills: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: but they're only thirteen or fourteen at the moment. And then well man, when they get a seventeen, eighteen, look, I we'd like to talk scholarships and opportunities. So Glenn Mills: Mm-hmm. Yep. Wayne Goldsmith: y you're you're helping the club coach, you're giving a pathway to the talented kids coming through their program. You might invite the club coach in to do a week or to help you run a a holiday program so that they're learning and they're getting better, which in turn everybody wins when you build those sort of relationships. If you go down the less ethical route of poaching swimmers or undermining home coaches and club coaches, which unfortunately goes on everywhere around the world, you've got to keep living that lifestyle. And it's there's a dead end, plus your reputation becomes Glenn Mills: yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: one of no one can trust you and you why be and you and I mate, you and I know what it's like at college level, that a lot of the really successful college coaches have got relationships with coaches in South Africa. And Asia and Australia and Europe. You know, because Glenn Mills: yeah. Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: they go, Good coach knows what they're doing. They're digging up the nuggets. I'm gonna polish them and turn into jewelry or we get probably pulling the analogy too far, but you know, you the relationships are are king. Glenn Mills: Yep. So you're gonna need a facility. So Wayne Goldsmith: A a large bathtub. Glenn Mills: a large bathtub. Wayne Goldsmith: Ha ha Glenn Mills: and obviously where we are, it you know, for a year round, you need to be, you know, out in Arizona, it can be outdoors. Here in Illinois, preferably you want it indoors. you know, but you take what you get. Wayne Goldsmith: It's it's a funny story. My my wife Libby loves to do open water swimming and at the moment where we live on the east coast of Australia, even though it's only just for us springtime starting, the water's around twenty degrees, twenty one degrees, which is quite comfortable. she's been invited to swim with a group in Christchurch where we're going in New Zealand next week. And the group said, I hope you like cold water because it's nine degrees Celsius. Glenn Mills: Ugh. Wayne Goldsmith: So times two is eighteen plus thirty, that's about fifty-five degrees Fahrenheit. Glenn Mills: Yeah, yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: And so I I don't know, I think they'll be looking forward to the coffee afterwards. But yeah, but this all ties in again, Milsey. If I go, I wanna be a coach that develops distance athletes, train all year round. We're gonna work specifically on medley, middle distance, freestyle. All right, well then I need a year-round facility. I need to be able to get at it twice a day. and maybe weekends or need you once you know who you are, you look for the facility. That's the that's the critical element. If you can't get the facility year round and you believe in a big work orientated program, well what are you gonna do? Or I mean the ideal thing, and you don't see it very often in a lot of places around the world is a long course and a short course and a gym facility. If you haven't got that and they're spread across maybe thirty or forty di blocks in a city, so the swimmers have got to travel to multiple places, that might not necessarily work for you. So you've got to go, well, if I believe in this, we're gonna have to do body weight dry land, we're gonna have to have equipment on deck that we bring, you know, but gonna come standard why do you need the facility? What do you need it for? The other thing I I tell coaches is a better facility doesn't make you a better coach. A better facility Glenn Mills: no. Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: gives you an opportunity maybe to do long course mornings, short course evenings, long course Monday, Wednesday, Friday, short course Tuesday, Thursday. I it gives you more opportunities to have a great facility, but it's no good coming up with a great solution to the wrong problem. If facilities are your problem, you need to fix it. If coaching is your problem, you need to fix that. Glenn Mills: Yeah, facilities can lull you into a false sense of security sometimes that you think, you know, the pool's fantastic, so we must be fantastic. And it's not necessarily the case. you did just talk about equipment. So equipment, you know, what do you have? But Germantown Aquatics in Pennsylvania, small pool, twenty-five twenty-five yard, six lane, maybe eight lane. I can't remember exactly. but every inch of the deck is used for dry land, climbing things. you don't have to have fancy stuff. I'm you know, back in Cincinnati, the Marlin pool that I trained at, not a fancy place, but everything was used. it was a it was a dark pool. It's been it's been updated obviously f forty six years ago. it's been updated since then. It's a nicer place now. But it was dark, it was dingy, and there was a cage at the end with dry land equipment that was all rusted out and we all just worked our tails off in there. not a pretty place, but it was very productive. So it doesn't have to be pretty and the equipment doesn't have to be shiny. you just have to be able to use it. So, you know, that's that's about it for that. Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah, it it's it's true, isn't it, that you don't need everything. Equipment's great to have. But I I always say to coaches, why do you need it? If i can you or or I go the other way with equipment and say, Can you still achieve the result without the equipment? What's what benefit is the equipment? And 'cause it's mm. Glenn Mills: Which Rocky movie is it? With you know, when he's doing the lifting the logs and then you got the Russian to Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: yeah, about number four or something. Look, I I I saw a coach it was a coach in Northern Australia who said, I'll show you my kettlebells and what he had was he had old buckets, iron steel buckets, and put some concrete in the bottom. And then Glenn Mills: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: so the kids would grab that and swing these iron buckets with a little bit and if you wanted more weight, he just put more concrete in the bottom. And he said He said, because kettlebells are ridiculously expensive for what is in effect a chunk of iron with a handle on it. So he just made a went to the hardware store, bought a bunch of buckets, a little bit of concrete or or more concrete, and there was a kettlebell workout. So yeah, don't get don't use equipment coaches as an excuse for, Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: you know, if only we had a better gym, we would be a better team. No. Become a great team and then use whatever's available to you and yeah when they go to college they've got incredible facilities. But if you're a high school coach, you don't need to spend a lot of money on it. Glenn Mills: Is that the same coach that dropped the crocodile in the pool and had it chase the kids down the s down the pool for their sprints? Okay. Wayne Goldsmith: No, no, Mark. No, no. I don't know what's happened to Mark. I saw him in Brisbane a few years ago. And yeah, interesting guy. But that really happened. But what people don't tell Glenn Mills: I know. I saw it. Wayne Goldsmith: you the the croc was about this big and a great story. It it got Glenn Mills: It doesn't matter. Wayne Goldsmith: him it got him so global publicity. Got him Glenn Mills: my gosh, yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: worldwide publicity, but but I was really quick story. Learn to tame the fans. Leading in the ninety six Olympics, we're in training camp North Queensland, and I had people like Michael Klim was there. I mean American audience will know some of these names, but Alex Popov was there with and Gennardi was there. So at the time, world record holder, world champion, dual Olympic Games, gold medalist. And we go to the the Cairns Crocodile Show and we're watching it and there's a guy in the crocodile cage and he's talking about I mean these are big, these are five meter crocs, and he's talking about crocodiles and he's going, has anyone got any questions? And someone yells out, Yeah, what do they eat? And he said, I eat about four chickens a week. And someone yells out, How fast can they swim? And one guy goes, Well put it this way, if the Olympic champion was here today, this crocodile could give him the head start win him and seriously pop off, takes off his sunglasses and goes, Excuse me, I am here, I want to race Glenn Mills: my gosh. Wayne Goldsmith: True story. So every day this guy's doing the I'm cool, I know everything. Saying, if the Olympic champion was here, this crocodile could give him a head start, catch him. And the actual Olympic champion takes his glasses off. Glenn Mills: my gosh. Wayne Goldsmith: And I was standing next to him and I just I died laughing. Anyway, the next morning I get a phone call from the head of the Australian Olympic Committee. He says, Wayne, what the hell are you doing up there? Because I was running the team. And I said, Why? He said, front page of the Sydney newspaper this morning. Olympic champ to race Cans croc. Glenn Mills: my gosh. Wayne Goldsmith: Because what the ki what the crocodile place had done, they got onto the media and said, Hey, we're gonna organise a race with the Olympic champion and we didn't we wanted to be under the radar. We didn't want all the press. And yeah, they they grabbed the opportunity and that but it was hilarious. When he took his glasses off and said, Excuse me, I am here, I want the race. man. Glenn Mills: my gosh. I think it just have separate lanes. I'm sure the the croc wouldn't come across. Yeah, 'cause then it get DQ'd. Interference in the other lane. So Wayne Goldsmith: I Alex is pretty big athlete. If I I'd probably be more scared Glenn Mills: yeah, yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: of him than the crocodile. Glenn Mills: Yeah. not so sure. But anyway, yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: Sorry, side issue on crocodiles. Glenn Mills: Yeah. We gotta keep this moving. I've got parent teacher conference tonight. money and resources. How much do you need? When and why? how do you generate it? Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah, I know this is a constant challenge, isn't it, for every swim club. But again, I Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: come back to that core question is what are you trying to do? What meets are you going to target? Why do you want to go to those meets? Who's going to pay to get there? We can't just keep saying to parents you've got pay more money. Swimming's expensive enough as it is. Do you have a fundraising committee on your committee, which we might touch on in a moment? Do you have a fundraising strategy? Do you engage the kids in your fundraising? do you engage colleges with if you're a high school coach with strong connection to the colleges who've got more resources, do you engage them in some sort of fundraising activity? But you've got to have a strategy to raise the funds that you need. But message for all high school coaches out there and and junior coaches, guys, it's not glamorous. I've slept on floors Glenn Mills: No. Wayne Goldsmith: in bathrooms, I've slept on floors in kitchens, I've slept in cars more than I can I care to remember I've shared a double bed with two other male coaches. yeah, not there's anything wrong with that, but w you know, where we've we because we had nowhere else to sleep and we had to share expenses, man, so you don't need as much money as you think. But don't expect five star accommodation Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: or business class. We've all done the hard yards, you just need And think about how much money you absolutely need, not how much money you think you'll want. Glenn Mills: Yeah. And there you go. Committees and management teams. So you need volunteers, you need help. Wayne Goldsmith: Who are the three most important people you need to know in a swim club, Billsy? Glenn Mills: well the the fr my dad taught me that the most important person that you need to know when you're going to the pool is the janitor. So the the well the person with the keys in case, you know, if the the the guy Wayne Goldsmith: Why? That's Yeah, guy opens the door. Glenn Mills: that opens the door. So, you know, if the pool's locked, you can't get in, you can't have practice. So that was the first one. Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah, I'll take that. Glenn Mills: my dad taught me that very early on in my career. So That was my that was my first most important person. So who's who's who's yours? Wayne Goldsmith: The the current president of the committee, the ex-president of the committee, and the next president of the committee. They Glenn Mills: Yeah, there you go. Wayne Goldsmith: have coffee with them every week, talk to them about what you're doing, update them on progress towards meets, keep them in the picture, share your vision with them, because you're the technical, tactical, strategic leader of the program, but they're the political leader. They're the one that is out there knocking on doors, talking to sponsors. deal and putting out fires behind your back but made the janitor again really quick story sweetenham in Hong Kong and we're trying to get into a pool. Can't get in, was booked, arguing with the op the guy the janitor. Need to get in, gotta do this. And he said no there's rules and there's policies and you can't open till that time. Everything else and I come back and I told Bill. Bill goes, I'll take care of it. Walks over and I and I thought Mate, did you d how how'd you pull that one off? Did you you know, did you threaten him? Did you talk about policies and you know, he said no, I just gave him twenty bucks. That's what you need the money for. Bribing the janitors. Glenn Mills: There you go. That's it. Yeah, there you go. That's it. So all of this stuff takes long term planning. You gotta think ahead. Everything takes a plan. Wayne Goldsmith: The work I'm doing with this with a a football club at the moment, Millsy, is is very relevant and topical here. Is we've sat down and we're talking about what do we want to look like in five years. And one of the first things we call this the crow's nest approach, because you're up the crow's nest looking over the horizon. And one of the things we've said is what does the game look like in five years? Because once if we if we predict and say, well, the game's going to be faster or there's going to be more replacements in the rules or the the rule about possession's gonna change, then we need to be developing players now who can play that game. Glenn Mills: Mm. Wayne Goldsmith: And it's a it's an important exercise. You need so if if you were to say for example, I think that by twenty thirty four, that unless you can break nineteen five for a fifty and NCAA, you're not even you're not gonna be in the top fifty. Who knows? Glenn Mills: Yeah, yeah. No, yep. Wayne Goldsmith: All right, well that means if I want to develop sprinters who are successful at NCAA DIV one level and internationally as well, and we're six years out for that, what does that look like? Well, core training, power training, flexibility, sprint work all year round, great technique under pressure, good skills. I've got to recruit kids. You know, it gives you once you know what the destination looks like, everything else falls in. But you can't decide in twenty thirty three to start producing sprinters who can do that in twenty thirty four. You that's now. In the eleven, twelve you know the when I work with Olympic teams, Millsy we go the we know generally the age range of successful swimmers, so medal winners, outside of things like 200 breaststroke for women and four hundred medley maybe for women and some distance events. We know the average age is somewhere between late teens Early twenties. All right. Well, if Glenn Mills: Mm-hmm. Wayne Goldsmith: you're preparing for the twenty thirty six Olympics, so that's ten years away, and that's the age range, you're talking about putting in place development pathways and development strategies for your eight year olds to fifteen year olds. That's that's the thinking of a winning coach who's be thinking like that. But it starts with what does it look like? There now, what are we going? What's the world record for fifteen hundred for men now? Is it fourteen? Where did he swim? Glenn Mills: Fourteen twenty six. Wayne Goldsmith: Fourteen twenty six, you know, in ten years we may be talking fourteen ten. Who knows? But I tell you what fails is saying I'm gonna swim train swimmers to swim fourteen twenty six in ten years. That that's not gonna work. It's as great as Glenn Mills: So if you have Wayne Goldsmith: it is. Glenn Mills: so if you have an eight year old that has the potential of winning the Olympics ten years from now, what's the most important thing for that eight year old to be doing today? Wayne Goldsmith: To create f as a coach to create an environment where they fall in love with the sport. Where they just their love their line in Glenn Mills: Boom. Big you they they have to be in the sport ten years from now. So they have Wayne Goldsmith: You got a Glenn Mills: to stay in the sport. That's the most important thing. It has nothing to do with their aerobic base. It has nothing to do with it. They have to Yeah, Katie Lidecki. Yeah. They Yeah. They can't wait to get to practice tomorrow. That's that's it. Wayne Goldsmith: You want having pictures on the wall of great American swimmers. You want sleeping yeah, sleeping with their goggles next to their on their their spare pillow. They get to practice, they're pestering mum and dad say, Take me to practice, take me to practice. I can't wait to see Glenn. Yeah, y that's what you want. Glenn Mills: Take me to practice. That's it. So right there, connect with parents and family. So you gotta they gotta w they can't wait to get to practice because they have so much fun going. And they have their friends Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah. Glenn Mills: are there, everybody's there, and they just can't wait to get there. So you gotta you gotta make this an enjoyable experience all the time. next one is Yeah, yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: Parents have got parents have got so many choices, Millsy, haven't they? And they're everyone's busy, like you. Everyone's got everyone parents are working two jobs. They're flat out, they've got other kids, they got their own fitness and well being, they got their own just relationship time, they've got so much of that going on. If they don't enjoy if I'm a parent, okay, man, I hate going to swimming, it's so boring. I don't want to sit there and watch this again. They'll make the decision not to come. So yeah, you've got to have great relationships with kids and families. Glenn Mills: So the next one was again, you've gotta you've gotta learn, you've got to build connections with local professionals from like you said, physical therapists and you know, all the other things. So but build your own swimming academy is what you were talking about here. Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah, the a lot I think you can if if you're again if you say, you know what I'm about, I'm in I believe in the holistic development of the individual, about mental, emotional, psychological. But you think because you're a high school coach or a young age group coach that they're gonna wait till they get to college or part of the US swim team to get that. No, you can do it locally. Pick up the yellow pages or this thing and Google sports psychologist near me or child psychologist near me, ring him up and say, Hey, I'm Wayne Goldsmith. I've just started a program in Illinois. I've got a team of three hundred kids. I'm looking for someone who'll come in and do a talk about relaxation, mindfulness, Glenn Mills: Mm-hmm. Wayne Goldsmith: concentration, and self-belief. Now we'd love it to be you. Now we can't pay you. I'm really sorry. We can't pay you. We'll give you a team shirt and some team gear. But I will recommend to all the parents and all the kids and all our newsletters, we will promote you and encourage our team to go to you professionally when they need mental skills services. Glenn Mills: absolutely. Wayne Goldsmith: So they're going, I've just picked up potentially 300 clients without having to do anything, and all I gotta do is come in four times a year and do a talk. So don't think that just because you're an age group coach with a small program that you can't be highly professional. Because there's professionals in your neighbourhood who are desperate for clients, everyone's short of money these days, who you're opening the door to their client base. They they love my experience I've I've actually done it this myself a few times. They love it. The local physical therapists, the local doctor, the there's there's so many people desperate to get into your club to get exposure to kids and families because that's their client base. And all you're asking is, hey, can you come in a few times a year and do some work, show our team how to stretch, you know, or get a a Google local dietitian, local nutritionist, and say, Could you come in and do a talk to kids about what to eat? And then could you maybe meet the parents of our senior group at the local market supermarket, a grocery store, and show them how to shop for the right foods. And in return, we will recommend you support you as our official team nutritionist. Man, that it that's so easy to do. A few phone calls Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: and you've created a swimming academy. Glenn Mills: Yep. That's incredible. Build connections with higher aspirational locations. I mean, you know, this was this was so good. I mean, like local colleges and you know, other, you know, just other sports teams around that are really, really good. Wayne Goldsmith: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm when I'm in Christchurch, even though I'm there ostensibly for short course racing, I've got I'm going out to dinner on two nights with senior rugby coaches who are exceptional rugby coaches who are all blacks and and going out with them and I'll learn I love the short course racing, being there with the swimming community, but I'll learn more about coaching from those guys because they're way up and they're working under extreme pressure, lots of stress, elite athletes on the road as part of a team preparing for the world championships. I mean these guys are really serious coaches. So I'm gonna pick their brains, Millsy, while we're having having burgers and cokes or whatever we do, but I'll be picking their brains about how do you build a team under pressure. what when you're on tour and you lose, how do you lift the team up? They're away from home. How do you pick a team up on tour when you don't have your usual support system around them? You know, if you've got someone on tour who's struggling, how do you support them and lift them when they they're really feeling alone? the the information that you learn as a coach from coaches who are not just at a higher level but in another sport. And y every town has got a college football team, college basketball team, you've there's coaches who get this stuff who can help you develop an understanding of team dynamics. Glenn Mills: So the next section here is, you know, now let's talk about you, about the individual coach. And I don't want to shortchange this, but I do have parent teacher night. So I think what we should do is let's stop this now, and then we're gonna do a part two on this that we can do maybe later tonight, or we can do it tomorrow before our other or maybe after. So we'll just kinda see. But we'll do it within the next day or so. Because I don't want to shortchange it because I think the tying this together with the how to build the team and then how the the most important part about this and is something that our generation skipped, which is the the for lack of better term, self care, you know, the the mental health, the the self care sort of thing, is so important because it gives you this longevity. of you know, really kind of keeping that that fire going really, Wayne Goldsmith: It's Glenn Mills: really well. Wayne Goldsmith: totally agree. It's a great decision, Milsey, and I b it is worth very much a focus on it. I know Glenn Mills: Yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: I'm I'm in New Zealand next week and next Friday. I'm doing Glenn Mills: I'm going to China on Sunday, so yeah. Wayne Goldsmith: and I'm doing it my first workshop that I've been asked to do by the local sport group Sport Canterbury is on coach well being and coach wellness. So th that's their they probably I said, What would you like me to talk about? They can choose anything they want. And they said we want you to do a two hour workshop with local coaches on wellness and well being. And I'm I'm hearing more and more swimming oil the Australian swimming coaches have just done a big research project on it on it. British swimming coaches have done a research project on it. it it's it is a critically important one. So great decision by you. Glenn Mills: Wait a second, wait, wait, wait. I gotta get better at that, like switching over to that. So yeah, so let's let's end this for this section of this talk now, and then you and I will pick this up in the next you know, later today or or tomorrow. And so we will we will continue this. Excellent. Wayne Goldsmith: good. Sounds great. A great discussion. Enjoyed it. Glenn Mills: Good to see you, and I'll see you in a little bit. Thank you, Wayne Goldsmith: See you soon. Glenn Mills: sir. Alrighty.