Rob Carver: Today on the Pro Talk Podcast, you're going to have the opportunity to learn what it's like to be a part of the last play of one of the most intriguing, inspiring, memorable, and controversial plays in Major League Baseball history. That's right, two cities, two fan bases, a night they're never going to forget. One experienced joy, jubilation, the other disbelief, devastation, and pain to this day. But before I introduce you to the to today's guest, make sure you push that subscription button and the notification bell. That way you never miss an episode of the Pro Talk Podcast and always get to learn from one of these amazing professionals. All right, the scene is set. It's October 14th, 1992, Atlanta Fulton County Stadium, National League Championship Series between the Atlanta Braves and the Pittsburgh Pirates. In the series, the Braves have come out to a three game to one lead. Pittsburgh Pirates storm back. Now it's three games all. And here we are, game seven. And the winner of game seven goes to the World Series. In this game, it's the ninth inning. Bottom of the ninth inning, the Pirates are up two to zero and the Braves are up to plate. the Braves come out and they get scrapped and they get one run. Now, the series is set. Big moment. It's two outs, but the Braves have the base unloaded. David Justice is on third and a slow runner named Sid Breams on second. Who steps up to the plate? None other than Francisco Cabrera. Who? Exactly. Francisco Cabrera gets up two outs, bottom of the ninth and hits a ground ball between the shortstop and third baseman. David Justice easily scores. Now we have a tie ball game and Sid Bream is rounding third. As he's rounding third, the ball gets in the outfield. Pittsburgh left fielder Barry Bonds picks it up, throws it home. The catcher catches it. As Sid Bream slides, he applies the tag. His right leg was in the air. He gets tagged out on the left leg and the umpire amazingly calls him safe. Today in the Pro Talk podcast, you have the opportunity to learn from the catcher from that play of the Pittsburgh Pirates, none other than Mike Spanky Lavalier. Just a little bit of background before we talk to Spanky. Spanky played 12 years in Major League Baseball and he was a catcher. 1987, he was a gold glove winner. 1988 was named by the Sporting News as an All-Star. 1991, he was the number one catcher in Major League Baseball with a 998 fielding percentage. He had a career 992 fielding percentage. He spent five seasons in the top five of all catchers in major league baseball. 1987, he was number one at throwing out runners. You did not want to run on Spanky. For four straight years, he was in the top five of throwing out runners. He has coached national junior players and teams. He's been a commentator and he's been a major league advisor and he still helps out the Pittsburgh Pirates. First thing first, Spanky. Appreciate you joining us today. But probably everybody wants to find out how'd you get the name Spanky? Was it a goof by your parents or how'd you get that nickname?

Mike: No, actually, yeah, I get that nickname later in life. I probably had a half a dozen nicknames, but in 1985 I was playing for the Cardinals AAA team in Louisville, Kentucky. My manager was Jim Fagosi, and he thought that I bore a resemblance to the Little Rascals character, Spanky. He started calling me that. I didn't put up too much of a fuss, because if you do, that automatically stick, but as you can see, it has stuck up until now. In fact, my friends don't even call me Mike. I don't even answer to Mike anymore.

Rob Carver: That's good. Well, I guess the nickname could have been worse.

Mike: Well, you know what, it's intriguing, depending on the audience that I'm explaining it to. I have a little fun with it.

Rob Carver: that's good. you were born in Charlotte, North Carolina, and you spent your high school years in New Hampshire and you played ball at, was it the University of Massachusetts at Lowell or in Lowell, Massachusetts?

Mike: Yeah, at the time it was University of Lowell. It's now part of the UMass chain. I think the proper is the UMass at Lowell.

Rob Carver: So what age did you start playing baseball?

Mike: Yeah, I started playing baseball at age seven. It was a T-ball league. I think we played two games that year. And it was just, this is New Hampshire in the 60s. So obviously, you know, it's not to the point where it seems like every little kid is playing on a travel team. That's much different back then.

Rob Carver: Did you play any other sports growing up?

Mike: every chance I could if there was a tennis racket, a hockey stick, a football, a soccer ball, anything with a ball I wanted to play and I really, really enjoyed being able to do so. As everyone knows, New England winners are pretty tough and you can't play baseball so you had to do something and I was just a sports lover.

Rob Carver: So whatever season it was, you played that particular sport.

Mike: At least one, sometimes two. My senior year in high school, I played soccer and ended up kicking for the football team during the same fall season.

Rob Carver: That's cool. So did you play football at all or just kick?

Mike: I kicked until we were eliminated from soccer and then all my buddies were on the football team and I learned how to play nose guard.

Rob Carver: wow.

Mike: And it was quite a transition. Just putting on a football helmet was something weird all by itself. It felt like it was about 40 pounds.

Rob Carver: Did you ever play any musical instruments?

Mike: Now I spend all my music lesson money on baseballs, golf balls, footballs and basketballs.

Rob Carver: Who is your favorite coach? Was it a little league coach or in any sport? Who is your favorite youth coach? Or you might have several.

Mike: Yeah, you know a couple guys stand out. Obviously we had a couple of dads that coached in Little League. Dick Bezoian and Harry Albee were my Little League coaches. Just wonderful gentlemen that gave their time. But I think once I got to 14, 15 year old Babe Ruth, these two guys really stood out and kind of sent me on my way and that was Don Bolesky. and Mickey Hannigan. And they coached our All-Star team where in 1976 we won the Babe Ruth World Series in Pueblo, Colorado.

Rob Carver: That's awesome. growing up, did they give trophies for every kid, for every sport you played like they do now?

Mike: You know what? There was no such thing as participation trophies. You know, if you won, you got a trophy. If you didn't, well, you need to work harder or get luckier.

Rob Carver: think that's great. Who is your toughest coach or teacher?

Mike: Well, I'm going have to say, you know, as far as teacher goes, I had taken a class at a university mall. It was care and prevention of athletic injuries. And it was taught by our trainer, George Carruth. And I thought, well, this is going to be easy. You know, I've been in his trainer's room. He's put ice on me. He's taped ankles. You know, this is going to be a piece of cake. Well, first day I walk in. and there's nothing but like nursing majors in this class. And the class was all about anatomy and all the rest of that, which was pretty much brand new for me. It was an easy class for them, but for me, it was very, very difficult. George didn't cut me any slack. And I'm kind of thankful for that because I really learned a whole bunch.

Rob Carver: That's good. Now were your parents supportive with all your sports?

Mike: Yeah, actually my mom was my minor league coach whenever I played that. Yeah, when I was eight years old before I got to Little League, she was our coach. yeah, mom, she took me everywhere to, you know, hockey practices, five o'clock in the morning, games, you know, two hours away. She was always there.

Rob Carver: Well, part of the pro talk podcast is what we need to help kids today learn from their defeat and their failures. And adults can learn that too. What was your worst defeat as a kid? Was it a hockey tournament or or baseball or a tee ball? Or do you have a particular defeat that still sticks in your mind?

Mike: Well, probably the one that sticks out the most was in high school my senior year. We're playing in the state tournament. We get to the finals. We're the defending state champions. We won my junior year and in the final game, Joe Seneca from our rival high school in Manchester, New Hampshire threw a no hitter against us and we got beat. And that right there was the last sport I played. in high school, shortly thereafter, graduated. That was a way to end high school.

Rob Carver: Have you ever crossed paths with Joe or did you ever send him a, when you made it to the big league, send him a card in the mail?

Mike: Yeah, let's just say that he's never gotten a Christmas card from me.

Rob Carver: Should send them a copy of your first check. made it.

Mike: Hahaha!

Rob Carver: Oh, getting to the professional ranks. I looked at your statistics and you had over 2800 played appearances in the big leagues and you're a career 268 hitter. And the interesting thing about baseball is they say that if you are a 300 hitter, you'll make it to the Hall of Fame, which is still failing 70 % of the time. So. What was it like knowing that most of the time that you're going up to the plate, that there's a chance you could fail or I heard Derek Jeter say one time he believed every time he was coming to the plate he was going to get a hit. He knew that wasn't going to happen, but that's the mindset. But how did you handle that going 0 for How does that shake your confidence going into the next day after you do fail?

Mike: Well, I think the biggest thing was, you know, if I was prepared and I had everything, you know, I knew my energy level was going to be there. Preparation was there. If I failed, that was part of the game. When you think about it, it's one against nine whenever you're up at the plate. Nine guys in the field. Maybe an umpire behind the plate that doesn't like you. Maybe that's one against ten. But those are overwhelming odds. And to succeed three out of ten times is a great achievement. I don't know so much if a boxer would win in the ring against nine opponents how he'd do. So that's something that your mindset has to be that you know you're going to fail. Just never want to be to the point where you become complacent with it. and that you accept it. It is part of the game, but that was kind of like what drives a lot of us was after the 0-4-4 the next day, what am I going to do to help my team get better?

Rob Carver: Well, let's let's get into, you're playing a game today and you hit one right on the nose and it's a line shot. the second baseman dies and catches it. What's your mindset going into the next at bat? Are you thinking I'm going to drive this next one over his head or are you going to just remember that you make good contact and stay tough mentally in the box?

Mike: Well, you it's, you got to really live in the moment. You know, what's happened has happened. You go ahead and you analyze it briefly. All right, what happened at bat? Everything, you know, happened the right way. It did work out. The next at bat, it's basically step in the box and see the ball. And it has nothing to do with what happened in the past. what's going happen in the future. As soon as you don't live in the present, that's what ends up happening. That's where you get these slumps. And it's very easy to say to live in the moment. But I believe that the best of all time in whatever sport, they were able to do that more often than the rest of us.

Rob Carver: So the saying goes, you got to remember to forget. Did that help you?

Mike: Absolutely. You know, again, you learn, you know, if there was a mistake, and even if there wasn't a mistake, you learn from it, you file it. The next at-bat is a completely new experience.

Rob Carver: they say life's biggest battles, the six inch battle between your head. So for instance, how tempting is it? You got met on second and third and no outs and you're up and you know that, if I get, if I get a base hit or when I get this base hit, there's a chance that we could win the game off my base hit. How do you stay in the moment? Or are you just thinking, read, read the pitch, read the piece, read the picture, or what are you, what are you thinking?

Mike: Yeah, Rob, all I used to do was whenever I got in the box, I'd tell myself to see the ball. Before anything happens, that's the only thing under your control. You can't control the pitcher. You can't control the fielders. You can't control the umpire. You control when you see the ball. If you see the ball right out of the hand, that gives you the best chance in order to be successful. And if you start thinking about, need to get a hit. Okay, you're worrying about the wrong thing. In order to do the right thing is you got to prioritize. Baseball, you don't have a lot of time. If you're returning, let's say a serve in tennis, and it's 130 miles an hour, how much time do you really have to think? You don't. You've prepared, you react, and then same thing, see the ball right off the racket, till it hits your racket. That gives you the best chance for success.

Rob Carver: Yeah, I think there's a great quote by Aura Hershizer that you cannot fail if you focus on execution rather than results. So that's kind of staying in the moment, right?

Mike: Yeah, that's what I mean. And I find that in a lot of youth level players. And I'll ask them, what are you trying to do when you come up to the plate? And the answer is very, trying to get a hit. I want to get a good pitch. I want to hit the ball hard. I want to stay inside the ball. I want to stay balanced. And all these things, and I'll ask them, all right, if I put a blindfold on you, what are your chances? And they go, well, I've got no chance. OK, so now you end up having them backtrack here. What gives you the chance is seeing the ball early and then to simplify it. You know, in the course of a season, you know, if you're trying to do things out of order, you're going to really struggle unless you're uber talented. You know, but I still think even those guys, the Tony Quins and the Wade Boggs. the Barry Bonds, all those guys, you they were able to separate and to concentrate and see the ball earlier more often than the rest of us. Yes, they were physically probably more talented, but also I think mentally they had an edge.

Rob Carver: So going to the mental side, would you ever go up to the plate trying to convince yourself? Now it's one thing when you own a pitcher, but if it's a pitcher that owns you, do you go up to the plate in your mind saying, I'm the man, I got this guy? You ever do that?

Mike: Again, I go back to the most simplistic form, you and I'll look at past stats and if I struggle with a guy, you know, I'll have a discussion with either another player that was maybe a left-handed hitter. Hey, how'd this guy pitch you? Or I talk to our hitting coach, Milt May. Hey, Miltie, what are you thinking about this? And once you've gone ahead and made your game plan, then you stick with it. and try to execute. You know, you've got to have trust in your preparation. If you've prepared the right way, that's really what it's all about. And then, you know, it's execution. You can execute, sometimes you're not.

Rob Carver: So that's that human element, I guess, right?

Mike: Exactly. that's, you know, again, it goes back to the mindset, one against nine, you know, whenever you get a hit, you know, that's fabulous. You know, you've you've just overcome all odds right there.

Rob Carver: Well, you were talking that, about having a physical and mental advantage, looking at the roster of your pirate teams back in the early 90s. And you guys were loaded. You got Andy Van Slake, then Bobby Bonilla, then Barry Bonds. And then the other coach is saying we got to watch out for the spanky guy more than anybody, right?

Mike: Well, you know what I thought? You know, the way my mindset was physically, obviously, you know, at 5'8", 210 pounds, couldn't run, much power. I had to be mentally stronger than the other guys, which to me gave me a huge advantage. You know, and that's the way that I had to think because I couldn't out-physical them, but I could out-think them. I could be mentally stronger than them. And to me, it was my advantage. You know, the pitcher just survived. You know, advanced like Bonilla Bonds. Now, up comes Spanky. Well, this guy can't really hurt me. That was my advantage as far as my thinking goes.

Rob Carver: That's great. Now, one of your coaches, your manager, Jim Leland, what you know, everybody thinks he's this gruff, mean guy, but I've heard interviews from you and other players on that pirate team saying what an inspirational guy he was. Do you remember anything he said to you or the team after a poor performance by you or the team that lifted you guys up that was encouraging?

Mike: Rob, I don't think I can share that with you

Rob Carver: You

Mike: or the general public. Let's just say Jimmy had his own way of doing things. And, you know, the way he conducted himself every night as a player, we were comfortable in the thought that he was going to put us in the best situation to succeed, which then would help the team succeed. And all of us were fully confident in that. So again, that was part of his preparation that he'd get the right matchups, whether it on pitchers against hitters, whether it was our hitters against certain pitchers. He had his game plan. And again, it's like any coach, if you have a great game plan, it's a matter of going out and executing it. And that's one of the things that made Jimmy great. He communicated. as well as anybody that I've ever seen.

Rob Carver: Is there a professional game that you remember that you ended the game with a strikeout or did something or what was the most painful one for you?

Mike: Well, I'm going to go back a little bit to Little League, okay, whenever I was 12 years old. And we're facing a pitcher, I think his name was Terry Bonnet, and he's from a small little town, Hensfield, New Hampshire. It's the first time I ever saw a curveball, Rob. I struck out three times. I don't think I struck out three times in the four years that I played Little League, total. And I struck out three times in that game, all on the curve ball. And I thought to myself at that point, I better find something else to do. Because

Rob Carver: you

Mike: there's no way I'll be able to get a hit if someone throws me the breaking ball. Well, eventually, sought more, learned about it. But as a big leaguer, there's no doubt in my mind the lowest point. was in 92 whenever Sid Breen was called safe at home. That was devastating. And

Rob Carver: Yeah, we're gonna get to that here.

Mike: yeah.

Rob Carver: Yeah, well, there's a lot to that and we're gonna touch on that in just a couple minutes. this is a very personal question I asked you before, what is the worst professional failure? I mean, was it athletic related or what's the worst thing?

Mike: Well, and again, from a personal side of things, I love Pittsburgh. I love playing for the Pirates. In 1993, the first week of the season, I got called into the office after the game. Ted Simmons was there and Jim Leal and the whole coaching staff. Ted Simmons released me that day. Well, it happened to be Easter Sunday, so I don't know how many folks out there. can say they've been fired on Easter Sunday. That was quite devastating. I was numb. I was in shock. I wanted to finish my career with the Pirates and saw that all evaporate. didn't know if I was going to play again. You know, initially, you know, I mean, this is, you know, devastation. I'm having to leave. a place that I fell in love with. And then that right there in itself was very, very difficult.

Rob Carver: Now, that's been a few years since that has happened, of course, but what are some long-term benefits from failure that's helped you the rest of your life?

Mike: Well, know, it's a lot of people say it too, you know, in baseball, there's always tomorrow. You know, the sun's gonna come up tomorrow, regardless of what happens today. I like thinking about stuff like that. I'm always gonna get that extra chance until you don't, and then it doesn't make any difference anymore. So to me, you know, is if I get an extra chance, I'm gonna try to take. every advantage of that chance and see if I can change the outcome.

Rob Carver: That's great. I appreciate that. When you when you've been coaching national players and national teams and you spent some time in a national, I guess we can call it Sports Academy. Some of the things I see with kids today, it's all about when I help coach Little League with my son and kids that I coach in tennis, as soon as a kid does something great, they show me their dance and they don't like it that I take the point away from them in tennis that, we don't dance on the tennis court. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. The success of celebration. Did you see some of that with the national ranked kids?

Mike: they wouldn't do it on my team. Wasn't allowed. you know, but in the kids defense, the way major league players act right now, it's more like, WWF wrestling, walk up music, you know, the playing to the crowd. that wasn't like, nobody even thought about doing that because number one, you're disrespecting. the name on your back, you're disrespecting the name on your front, you're disrespecting your family, you're disrespecting your opponent. And to me, that has no place in the game. Obviously, walk off home run, yeah, jump up and down, go crazy. But you hit a single or you get on base with a walk and you start all these gyrations. To me, there's no room for that. You know what? It's sad to act like you've been there before. With a kid, it's hard because they really haven't been there before. So their role models, to me, need to clean up their act or else the game eventually people are going to get sick and tired of watching that.

Rob Carver: I love what you said there, that word respect, that kids talk about the entertainment value or what's on... you know, the highlight reel and we were watching the game the other night and somebody hit a double and it was like a wave to the bench and then this gyration and what was that? You just hit a double and that wasn't around when I was a kid either. And when you said that disrespecting your opponents, it's OK when you hit a home run. But to do this seems like every place isn't that what you're supposed to do? You're paid to do that, correct?

Mike: Well, exactly. And, you know, as a kid, there's not enough good coaching, you know, of people. And we have to understand that many of these folks are volunteers and they don't know better. And it's a shame that these kids aren't being taught. But there's not enough good coaching out there. in order to rectify this situation. Let the kids play is probably one of the worst things that's happened to youth sports. Yes, I love the youthful exuberance, know, the big smiles, the not playing out celebration, but the instantaneous, you know. wave to the parents or something like that where you've come up with a big hit. I get that. But to say, hey everybody look at me, to me you're giving your opponent a reason to beat you. And I don't want to ever do that.

Rob Carver: Well, that's great. I had a little league coach. We were about to win and we were up by a sizable margin. And he said, guys, just remember there's a team over there. They're going home crying because they lost. And I thought that was awesome. Cause all we cared about was celebrating, going to the Dutch aisle, getting ice cream and a trophy because we won. in your experience with the, junior academy or just your experience being around. Seeing kids, this might take, I mean, we could have our own series of podcasts on this, but what do you think parents are doing wrong? for their little baseball players.

Mike: Well, I think the number one thing is, and there's a few important things here, parents aren't realistic, you know, as far as the futures of their sons and daughters. There's only going to be so many people that are going to make the big leagues. There's only so many people that are going to make it to the NFL, the NBA, to professional tennis. There's a whole lot more that aren't going to make it. And parents think that if they throw money at lessons or at certain schools that automatically makes their child successful, they couldn't be more wrong. I can't tell you that a kid at age 13 has a chance to make the big leagues, but I can tell you there's ones that that won't. There's some very, very good players out there, but you know, there's a lot that goes into it. It's not just talent. A lot of it is your mindset. There's a lot of, I played with a lot of great players that mentally couldn't hack it. You know, they were the big fish in the small pond and now they're thrown into a big pond and all the other fish are as good as they are, if not better. And mentally, a lot of these kids that are just tremendously talented just can't hack it mentally. know, and that's a big part. Obviously, you have to have physical tools to succeed. You can't buy those tools. You know, a lot of those are God-given abilities. And I'm thankful for what God gave me. I wish he would have gave me a little more. It might have been a little easier. But you know what? He gave me that. And then that was up to me to be able to make that work. And I think a lot of times, everybody wants the instant gratification. Here I took three lessons. I'm going to get four hits tonight. If that's not how it works, I'm paying $80,000 a year to send my son or daughter to this school. that will guarantee them a D1 scholarship. That doesn't happen. know, it just say, you know, there's too many factors out there. Baseball's worldwide. Tennis is worldwide. I think really American football is kind of really the only sport that's not completely worldwide. So you're thinking about you are now with travel and everything else, you're competing against the world. just not competing against kids from the United States anymore.

Rob Carver: So do you believe year round sports are bad for kids?

Mike: I love to see younger kids, and this is all the way to high school, play as many sports as you can. To me, you develop into a better athlete. You use different muscles. You have different attitudes. Obviously, your attitude on the football field and your attitude on the golf course is going to be completely different. But if you can learn how to adapt. to all these different sports. And then when it comes time to where, you know, I go to college and maybe I've narrowed it down to two sports. I'm okay with that. But I see way too many kids at age seven taking, you know, three lessons a week of one hour a piece in baseball. And by the time they're 10, they don't want to play anymore. You know, sometimes, you know, too much. is going to work against you. And I think that happens more times than not. If it's not from within, if you're not driving yourself, if your parents are driving you, that's ultimately going to be a fail.

Rob Carver: Well, I guess probably one of the biggest questions I could ask you is how do we get kids today to become mentally tougher and to work harder?

Mike: Well, Rob, I think I would write a book and make zillions if there was one answer to that. A lot of it to me comes from home, from family. As a parent, I've had four children. I want the best for my four children. But realizing that they have to have failure. in order to succeed. If you're never failing, there's going to come a time whenever you do and it's going to be total devastation and you don't know how to deal with it. Adversity, to me, is your best inspiration. you know, being behind the eight ball, you know, that's a great place to be and thinking about that, you know, it's like now it matters. I'm just not going through the motions. I've got to do this or I've got to do that in order to get behind or get from behind the eight ball and get into an advantageous position.

Rob Carver: I love that. I don't hear that enough that adversity and failure are great teachers. That's awesome. Well, I know some of my buddies here in the ATL want to get to the heart of the matter. Back to 92. I have a couple of notes here and then I'm going to let you take the floor. Terry Pendleton started off that inning for Atlanta and he hits a double down the right field line. I'm not name dropping here. I had a friend who played for the Atlanta Braves and he told me that Atlanta Fulton County Stadium, there was a vacuum down there that most balls that were hit well went foul. in right field. So I'm saying that's a fluke. He hit it off the end of the bat, but he started off the inning with a double to right field. I want to address one thing with you. There's first and second with one out. Damon Berryhill is up at the plate, and I painfully went back and watched this inning. I thought it was a pitch up here, but watching it inside pitch off Stamberlinda, they called it a ball. It's very close. two and one, another inside pitch, three and one, another inside pitch. He gets walked. And then Tim McCarver, and they showed the replay, he said, Mike Lavalle, you're barking at home plate umpire, Randy Mart, he showed it. And you are shaking your head. It's a family friendly podcast, but can you tell us what you said to Randy Mart? Or what'd you think of those calls?

Mike: Well, number one, we didn't lose because of Randy Marsh. Randy Marsh was a fine umpire, but he's also a human. And I believe, you know, and it's easy to happen. He got caught up in the moment. You know, you're at Fulton County Stadium. The place is going crazy. You know, I thought there were strikes and I let him know that. I says, Rob, okay, stay with us here. Stay in the ball game. You know, trying to get him. And that was after the first pitch that he missed. And they were strikes. And I just honestly think that that was human error. I don't blame Randy. You know, it's hard to be an umpire. And these guys, you know, they get a heck of a lot more right than they do wrong. But they are human, you know. And at the time, I wasn't thinking about humanity. I was trying to get my guy to raise that right hand and call strikes, but it didn't happen. And again, that's just, you're looking back on it. It's much easier for me to say around my living room table that it was behind the plate.

Rob Carver: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's get back to now what everyone wants to talk about. Francisco Cabrera's hit. was a legitimate hit. I give him credit in a pressure situation since he didn't play much. what I saw and looking back at the replay from the camera angle, from the Braves dugout, when Sid slides and you tag him, I'm not sure if anybody ever talked about this, but Jay Bell. is jumping up like this and he makes this move like, yeah, he's out. And I've never heard J. Bell interviewed or asked that question, but, you know, I guess I'm not sure what the rule is, is just like the Phantom touch at second base, like if the player is at the bag, he's out whether he really touches the bag or not. Sid's foot was in the air. It looked to me like you touched his leg and his foot had not touched the plate. So what do you think?

Mike: Well, I couldn't look at it, you know, the replay for 10, 15 years. It was that, I that's how much

Rob Carver: Sure.

Mike: it hurt. I didn't want to see it. But then I started doing some broadcasting and I had some of my buddies from ESPN to go back and take an independent look. And we only had two angles at the time. So. He said, look, it was inconclusive. So, okay, it wasn't obvious that, you know, he was safe. Here's my deal. Whenever you have a bent leg slide, okay, your top leg is up in the air. Going into second, going into third, no problem, because the base is up above the ground and you will touch. your foot with that lead leg. And home plate is even with the dirt. You can't dig your spikes in or you'll break your ankle. It's one of the first things that they tell you. You can't dig your spikes in. And I believe that I touched his back leg and his right leg was completely over the plate. but I don't believe it had touched home plate yet. So, you know, and I still to this day think he was out. It doesn't change anything. I know whenever I go do some card shows, I get that picture put in front of me a lot of times. And my comment was he was out and then I signed

Rob Carver: Hahaha

Mike: it. So, you know, that just, you know, it is what it is. It's now, know, whether... You know, and Sid is one of the best people I've ever met. We're still very good friends. We have fun with him. He signed, I was safe. I signed, he was out. So, you know, it's unfortunate that we didn't get the call, and he did, but at no point has he ever gloated. At no point has it ever been a contention between Sid. the city of Pittsburgh because he lives there. You know, and that's pretty cool. you know, again, it shows what a great human he is. And he almost, I think at one point, he felt bad because that was against a team that he played for, a bunch of friends on that team that he played with, and a place where his kids, family. we're growing up in. So I mean, it's kind of a tough situation for Sid. But let's just say it was a little tougher on us.

Rob Carver: Well, you know, as a pirate fan, we hadn't scored a run since the first inning. And I thought it doesn't matter if he was out that we were dead. We didn't have anything going and the Braves would come back and they had that momentum and it was just meant to be. And, you know, I've heard you say in previous interviews, it's the umpire's call. So you've taken the high road and you can't change what's been done. So it was, it was great for the city of Atlanta. immediately. Yanked. my phone my landline out of the wall because I knew I'd be getting calls and felt like I'd been kicked in the gut for about two weeks. But can you do you remember anything? I mean, I, I thought I saw Jim Leland and borderline tears and interviews. Did he say anything to the team? Or what what what happens in that locker room? What can you say?

Mike: Well, you know what, was nothing that could be said. The only thing I could ever compare it to, and it's not fair to me necessarily to compare this, but in the movie, Saving Private Ryan, Tom Hanks at the very end, whenever the tank shoots and everything is numb and he can't hear anything, and there's all this movement going on, that's what it felt like. I couldn't hear a thing. I was walking back to the dugout knowing that the game was over. I didn't have time to be upset. It was total shock. And I think that was the whole thing. We got into the locker room and I think all of us were, you if we didn't have a tear in our eye, we were certainly, you know, devastated by it. Nobody said anything. I went in the trainer's room for at least a half hour because I wasn't ready to discuss that play with any of the media that was in there. You know, so it was just a total numbing effect. I don't think Jimmy had anything to say if he did. It went in one ear and out the other. I wasn't comprehending anything at that point.

Rob Carver: Well, and if anybody's ever played catcher with somebody coming down third base, I still think it's amazing. That situation, you could have really screwed it up by dropping the ball. You may that would have really sucked, right?

Mike: Yeah, that would be, you know, along the lines of poor Billy Buckner, you

Rob Carver: Yeah.

Mike: know, a great player, you know, that missed that little ground ball, you know, when he was playing first base with the Red Sox, you know. You know, it was a great game. You know, lot of people that I've talked to, you know, blame Bonds, you know, and you said it best. You know, scored the first inning. We had other chances to score and we didn't. You know, so it wasn't Barry, it wasn't the umpire, it was us, a collective whole that didn't do the job. You know, and it just, it's easy to point fingers at the end, but sooner or later, you know, and I think this is something that helped me cope with it was, you know what? We did our very best. The wrong team won. You know, next year, was going to be next year. And as much as you try to forget it, you forget it and you go on. So that's something that in devastation, baseball is a very humbling experience. And you've got to be smart enough to forget.

Rob Carver: Well, I think I'm going to show the last two minutes to every kid I teach because right there, that's a great perspective on how to handle losing and with respect in class. And you're not making excuses because that's symptomatic of kids these days that they have a reason why they lost and they blame everybody else. And you guys are grown men. took responsibility. We're just a couple more questions and then we'll wrap up. What's your all time favorite baseball moment?

Mike: Well, there's a couple. Gosh, I want to say 1985 I was the opening day catcher for the St. Louis Cardinals. Darrell Porter broke his toe in New York, the opening series. They're going back to St. Louis, which was a brand new team for me. I just knew the guys in spring training, but it is quite the production in St. Louis. We're all in those IROCs, all bright red. had our own car and driver and they take you around the field and the place is going berserk. It's crazy. Once that's over, they announce the lineups and then I'm ready to go out on the field. I'm just a kid that just can't get after it fast enough. And Bob Forch just grabs me on the shoulder. He says, wait a second, just slow down. And I go, I'm ready to go, for she, I'm ready to go. And he goes, no, no, watch. And then Ozzie Smith goes out and he does his double back handspring. And I don't remember touching the ground whenever I got to home plate. That was like the first big, big, big deal for me. The second one was also at Bush Stadium in 1990. And we clinched. to go to the playoffs. Doug Drabeck on the mound, ground ball to Chico, over to Sid Green. And I remember running down first baseline, Danny Walling was at the plate. I may have beat him to first. I'm not sure, even

Rob Carver: No.

Mike: with all the gear on, and how slower this could be. But just the jubilation of, my gosh, we've done it. And then that right there, two of the two biggest moments. for me, and it happened in the same stadium. Obviously, there's so many more, but those two stand out for me.

Rob Carver: Who was the toughest pitcher that you ever faced?

Mike: Well, it's crazy because it's easy to say Maddox because he was. mean, you know what? He did whatever he wanted with the ball, including scuffing it. Yes, I would have said it. Greg Maddox was a cheater. He's admitted. Okay. Talking about throwing scuff balls. but you know what? Uber talented, crazy. with his control. The other guy was David Cohn. David Cohn, we had all of his pitches. He tipped his pitches from the windup and still couldn't hit him. And that was righty against, that was a lefty and an enter. Lefty gets lefty, that's a different deal. But righty gets lefty, feel like I got the upper hand there. I knew what was coming and still couldn't hit him.

Rob Carver: That's crazy. Now who is the best of your playing days? Seeing it with your own eyes, who was the best hitter that you ever saw?

Mike: I got to see Tony Gwynn for, gosh, six, seven years. I only got to see Wade Boggs for two or three. I think Tony Gwynn was the best pure hitter. You know, as far as hitting for average, not striking out, you know, overall hitter, that was him. The best hitter overall was Barry Bonds. followed closely by Frank Thomas. Yeah, they both could do everything, but Barry had more speed. Power-wise, they were unbelievable. RBIs, big heads, everything. These guys were the two that stood out.

Rob Carver: How great to sit there and watch that and play against all that great era that you played in.

Mike: Well, it was a lot more fun playing with him and stratificating with

Rob Carver: Yeah. Who do you think was the best baseball team of all time?

Mike: Well, it's hard. It's really hard to not say the 27 Yankees. You know, I mean, that just they just had everything. You know, I got to think, you know, a couple of those Braves teams, you know, the early 90s, you know, with that pitching staff, Schmoltz, Glavin, Maddox, you know, that mean, that team had speed, had power. had defense, had, but more importantly they had great pitching. I think those teams were great. The Reds in 1990, with the nasty boys, there's certain teams that in certain years, it would have been great to have those matchups, but it's impossible. there's, as far as I was concerned, the 1967. Red Sox was the very best team because I was seven years old. It first time I started watching baseball. So to me, that was the greatest team ever.

Rob Carver: That's one of those who's the best of all time. It's a good bar room argument, because you can never definitely say there's no statistic to say it. So it's just a great discussion at a bar, I guess.

Mike: Yeah, I mean you can talk about wins, losses, all that stuff. I mean, lineups. That's why baseball, it's just, hopefully it's an everlasting game.

Rob Carver: one last question for you. My favorite sports team of all time. most memorable sports team of all time to me is the 1980 US hockey team. So what's your favorite sports team of all time? Any sport?

Mike: Well, that miracle on ice, I was 20 years old. I was a hockey player. And that to me was just to be professionals. And that was just maybe a once in a lifetime thing that we saw. That right there epitomizes this is why we play the games. Everybody has a chance. It might be a slight chance. But everybody has a chance whenever you cross those lines. And that's one of the biggest things. As a player, knowing that it doesn't matter who's on the other side, I got a chance to succeed today.

Rob Carver: Well, that's great. Well, Spanky, I want to thank you for your time. I appreciate all your insights and I hope everybody learned from Spanky some of the things that stand out in my mind, how we talked about respecting the game, respecting yourself, respecting your opponents, you make a fool of yourself by dancing and celebrating when you did the things you're supposed to do, how to handle adversity. Failure is a great teacher. Spanky, want to appreciate I tell you I appreciate you for your friendship and your leadership and spending your time today. So before the next episode, make sure that you don't forget another episode, push the subscribe and notification bell so you can learn something from the next pro that we talked to. So till next time, make the most of your time and hang tough.