BOUNCE: Hi there, this is Danielle from Rough Drafts. If you like our content, please consider giving us a follow. You can listen and watch on Spotify and YouTube, you can listen on Apple, and over on our Patreon you can see full content, videos, case studies, and much, much more. Go on, click the button to follow along. Neve McGardle is a designer from Galway based in Dublin and sometimes Florence. She works freelance to allow her the freedom that travel brings, but at the heart of her work Is a distinctly contemporary Irish design aesthetic. In this episode, she speaks about her interests that have enriched her design process, from film, literature, writing, and her family's habit of collecting and curating objects of place and ultimately of nostalgia. As a graduate into the world in 2020, she speaks about getting started when the world was in chaos, a pandemic graduation that came with no show, no ceremony. No moment of arrival. Not that that held her back. With incredible projects, she deep dives into her work while at Slater, working collaboratively with the studio team on a book design that ultimately went on to win the DAD pencil for book design. The process of making this book is incredible, with the artist Paul Yates, a poet from Belfast, described as in concert with the team throughout. Everywhere she goes, she finds inspiration. collector of ideas from cafes in Italy to workshops just to keep her making and her hands busy. Her next rough draft may involve embroidery, Florence, or something else that she hasn't quite worked out yet. This is a fantastic conversation. I hope you enjoy. Welcome back to Rough Drafts, the podcast from Bounce, where ideas are still forming. Today's guest is Neve McArdle, a Dublin-based graphic designer who is, by the industry's own measure, still relatively early in her career. She graduated from IADT, the Institute of Art Design and Technology, in Dunleary. She joined Slater and within a few years had an IDI award for data visualization, multiple 100 archive selections, and a DNA D pencil for book design. Now, DNA D pencil at whatever stage you're at is something spectacular, but there's something very specific about winning one when you're still kind of working out what type of designer you're going to be. So that's the conversation I want to have today about that transition from graduate designer to fully fledged designer winning awards and how you find your feet in the industry. I met Neve a few years ago when she took part in the IDI Designer in Residence program. And I noticed how rigorous her process was and how detail oriented she was in her work. Her work is beautiful alongside that too. So Neave, welcome to Rough Drafts. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So you might start by telling us how you got into design. ⁓ okay, so yeah, I suppose like I had a like a traditional route in design and that like I studied it in college. I didn't come to it years later, but I I guess like going back to when I was in primary school, I always liked drawing and ⁓ creating things and ⁓ my family were like really encouraging that. Like I have three siblings. We're always like drawing, doing comics, like making kind of stuff. And both my parents they don't work in a creative field, but they are both like I think quite creative people and like very ⁓ like strong like problem solvers and logical kind of thinkers. and I think those skills like like I think they both could have probably done graphic design in another life and they're both like really interested in it and ⁓ supportive of me like when I went to IDT. and the town I grew up in is in Galway and it's very like art and music was like just kind of a part of ⁓ the experience growing up there. ⁓ in school ⁓ I had a teacher that she was big on you know entering us into art competitions and kind of doing posters for something that might be happening in the town and we would do like, you know, she was doing drama and theater and it's just like really creative outlets that you kind of like had to kind of get involved in. And ⁓ that I think as well, like I didn't really realize this, but when I was thinking about this for the podcast, I was just kind of realizing like I was always kind of comfortable putting like ideas forward. ⁓ like from a young age, because you'd be doing these kind of like projects where you're like on show for people. and so I think I had like confidence in those kind of creative areas where I might have lacked confidence in other things and like I was quite I could be quite like shy and quiet, but I always felt like sure in my kind of creative capabilities and stuff. So ⁓ like all through school I loved ⁓ art and but I didn't want to I had a lot of other interests too. Like I really loved English and I loved maths and I ⁓ kinda had like both of those kind of sides. ⁓ and so I didn't want to do fine art or anything kind of like that. I wanted to kind of combine the two and ⁓ Viscom is obviously good kind of it it uses both. It's very creative and artistic in a way. But then also you need to have like ⁓ I guess like a logical kind of mind and like problem solving and being able to break things down to like their simplest form and stuff. and I didn't know anybody that had done Vizcom. and I felt like very yeah confused on what I was gonna do because I kind of knew that I didn't really want to go into like a a course with, you know, lectures, lots of lectures and huge numbers of people and stuff. and then ⁓ in I kinda had an idea about it, but in fifth year the Grand Budapest Hotel came out when I was in fifth year. And I liked that's one of my favorite movies. And I remember my mum sent me an article ⁓ about Annie Atkins because she was obviously the lead graphic designer on the film and she was based in Dublin. And I think just because it was so like close to home in a way, I was like really ⁓ it was I was very impressionable. I was like, ⁓ this sounds like something I would like to do. And I emailed her and ⁓ she replied and said that. you know, she had like a visual communications background and then kind of had kind of moved into film. ⁓ and so that was kind of so I didn't really want to do film, but I I didn't have the word, I guess, for what I wanted to do. ⁓ but yeah, that was very like that kind of gave me a bit more clarity on like that there is something that exists that is this. ⁓ and then so I took a year out and did like my portfolio and stuff. And then Started in IDT and I actually did in third year. We did internships and I got to do an internship with her, which was amazing. And it was like it's obviously really different graphic design for film. It's like completely a different kind of thing. But a lot of those things that I use that I learned there, I would use now. Like I like you know, for graphics for film, I mean, I don't know that much about it, but you're always kind of like recreating something from the past or trying to r recreate a world in the future that feels believable. ⁓ and I think I in my research I take a lot of inspiration from the past and I always want things to feel real and like there is a a r a rationale behind everything. So I think that kind of thinking has kind of followed me through. ⁓ and Then after it's kind of during college I I used ⁓ language like a lot in my in my projects. Like I really liked copywriting and I often found ⁓ myself gravitating towards like writing things before even sketching things maybe. ⁓ like kind of sketching through language and kind of trying to sum up what I was trying to say in a couple of words or set kind of understand like the tone. I remember in second year we did this project that was basically introducing us to the concept of like a tone of voice. And that was like I think a turning point for me because I really liked doing that. And I felt like establishing a tone of voice came like kind of naturally to me or like I could use words to kind of ⁓ establish what I was trying to say. And I kind of then use that like throughout all my projects. yeah, I really like I definitely like typography and working, but I also think the actual words are so important as well. and I think, yeah, I might like I'm really interested in like and enjoy like film and literature and I think those things really influenced in college, like how I kind of approached projects and stuff. and I think as well like on the kind of graphic props for film side, like I always like things to feel real. And ⁓ I guess, yeah, in college like I didn't use Illustrator that much. I which I use all the time now, but I I was very like hesitant to I didn't ever want to do something that felt like it was completely like done by a computer. And obviously now I know there are ways to do to use those thing those softwares without that being the outcome. But in college I was very like, you know, using like paper and ⁓ photography and like photographing real things or making image making from like organic material. I was like very hesitant to to kind of do that stuff. And I didn't feel like I necessarily had my own like illustration style as well. So I definitely gravitated towards ⁓ yeah, kind of like image making from like an actual thing. ⁓ and then after college, so I graduated in twenty twenty and I finished like my grado and stuff. I moved back to Galway and finished it at home. And yeah, graduating was just like it was not fun. a not fun time for anyone and nobody was really hiring. Like we kind of all had this dream that we would, you know, you know, graduate, maybe take the summer off and then just like land in a studio somewhere, but that was that was not ⁓ the case. ⁓ the world had other plans for everybody. Yeah. So what a tough time though to graduate in your final year and, you know, I remember it so well, the lack of like grad shows, all that kind of stuff that really really impacted that that graduating year. Yeah, it was it it is sad, like, because I think as well in in IDT anyway, and probably in all the colleges, but like the grad show was something that we would go to like of older years. And like they were always like all dressed up and it just like it just it really felt like the penultimate like Congrats, you've finished, like you finished Vizcom and yeah, not having it, it was just I don't really know when we realized it was never gonna happen. Like the whole time we kinda thought, ⁓ it will still happen but then it's been like six years. I don't think it's gonna happen again. But it is, it's a rite of passage, you know. And like I know the like the function of the grad show is, you know, it's ⁓ you know, industry come, ⁓ potential, you know, opportunities arise, all that kind of stuff. But for the the graduate themselves it is that release, that moment of Yeah Yeah. I've done it. And then like it's well, I think it's really important. ⁓ you had obviously a supportive family, but it's it's kinda interesting ⁓ for parents to see it. Parents or guardians to see what the work is 'cause sometimes it can be a little bit like, you know, we don't know what she's doing or he's doing, but they're doing something in arts or something in or something. You know, and and a lot of people don't and parents don't have the language, don't really understand it. So when they see the work and then they see the work of your peers, they get it. It clicks with them. And then they kind of have this newfound, you know, pride in in the work that you've done. So it's it's it has so much has there's so not having one loses on so many points, you know? Yeah, so so much. Like I think, yeah, that point of people being able to understand what you've been doing for the last four years because it's ⁓ in a way like it's even though like vis like graphic design is so integral to like everything you see around you. You don't really know what it is. And like I still get like, ⁓ do you paint? And I'm like, in my spare time sometimes, but not for work at all. Like it's it's such a like under kind of understood. And what what what do you think that that is coming from? Because I had that experience, you know, like, you know, years ago. of like wanting to do something creative, not knowing what that thing was, thinking maybe it was advertising because I had a vague knowledge that that existed. But not you know, and like not but not really knowing. And it was like that, it was like a portfolio course and a and a lecturer who said, No, this is what you're you're actually trying to grapple for. It's called graphic design and visual communications, you know. And like it's terrible that kids are not informed. And that was years ago. And I don't know that that has changed too much. You know, I d I don't think it has really. Well, when I was in school, like we had career guidance and it didn't come up like I had to do the research myself. ⁓ and I feel like it was such an obvious like route for me because yeah, it just kind of encompassed everything that I was interested in. I don't really know, but I think I think it's taken for granted. I think people don't actually stop and think like who Designed this sign or this like wayfinding that I'm using. Like it's almost like the things that we we just don't like, we're so used to seeing certain things that we don't necessarily take them in. And I think as well, like a lot of it is kind of ⁓ people think it's just like art or something like that. And and I also think a lot of you know, there's a lot of things that people can kind of do themselves, like especially now, like with things like Canva and like, you know, people maybe don't realise that there is actually somebody that has spent time like studying it or like understanding it and, you know, trying to make it as strong as possible. So I I don't really know. Like yeah, it's just not I suppose yeah. I think I think we're missing lots of people. even considering the industry, you know, because of that l that the disconnect between what it actually is, what a day to day looks like. Yes. You know, and the joy that can be derived. And as you said, like it's you know, it's not about, you know, ⁓ she's good at drawing, she's good at art. Yeah. It it's when you have the like all of those skills, the interest in literature and reading, like if you can't you can't design if you're not into reading, you know, you can't set type if you can't if you don't read type, you know? And like that combination of different interests is really where kind of graphic design holds a great space. Yeah and yeah it's it's ⁓ I think there's a lot of people maybe pushed into different roles and they could they could be missing a great, great career. Yeah. Yeah I agree. Like so then you finished college in in the the horror of twenty twenty. And then what was what was the the plan? So you were hoping that there was gonna be a grad show that never appeared. You were hoping that you would take the summer off and the world would turn back to normal and that kind of did and didn't to some degrees. There wasn't great hiring going on in any studio or anywhere because everything was ultimately closed. So what was what were what was on your mind? What were you thinking? I was kind of and a lot of us were freelancing, which was like code for unemployed. ⁓ and I was freelancing, you know, like doing projects for friends and family and yeah, taking time off as well, which was obviously nice. ⁓ and then I yeah, I was kind of try I was trying to sort of yeah get a few projects. So I actually I did do kind of I guess two sort of, you know, projects that I think then added to my portfolio and helped me in the next thing. So I did a project ⁓ I don't know if you know Neave McCabe. She's she also went to IDT and I actually heard her speaking on a podcast like when I was in college and talking about and so I I she was kind of doing ⁓ during COVID, she had just started this kind of lifestyle brand. She's like a t she does UI and UX now, I think. I could be wrong, but she was doing kind of textile design and like these really beautiful like ⁓ blankets and cushion covers and all this really nice stuff and I really liked liked her work and then also like was very inspired by the fact that she had just kind of set this up. ⁓ so I met with her. She was so nice to meet with me because I just messaged her and I was like I'm kinda, you know, just out of college. No one's hiring, but if you ever need a hand on anything. And I did a a project with her, like just like a small kind of art direction like photography project. But then that I used in my portfolio for like going forward. And then as well from the, you know, the new now, there was the kind of graduate ⁓ archive. I think Hens Teeth found me through that and I did some posters with them. So I had like kind of two kind of small sort of things to kind of keep me going. And then in March, I actually I don't know if you know this, I worked in Cloud Picker as their in house designer. No, I didn't realize. Yeah, for ⁓ for six months. So that was like my first proper job. And I started that in March. so like after I graduated. So it was nearly a year after I graduated. And that was like such a good first job. Like I I really liked it there. ⁓ it's actually ⁓ so CloudPricker's like a specialty coffee company in Dublin. ⁓ and It's the two founders. So Frank is one of the founders and he has a graphic design background. He went to L S A D. So it was a really good first job because it was in house and I had Frank there and he was like, you know, he knew where I was coming from because he had the same kind of background, obviously much more experience. But he was like such a good like mentor and as well, I think working in-house. I think a lot of the focus in college is on like getting out into the studios and you all kind of know about the studios, but doing an so doing an in-house role seemed kind of unusual maybe, but it's a really good thing to try because you're kind of forced to sit with one brand and kind of explore like all of the boundaries within that brand and and figure out where you can kind of push them and you end up doing maybe like a similar project again and again. So you kind of every time get faster and faster at it. Like ⁓ I did like I did everything there. Like it was ⁓ it was just a total like all arounder. Like I was doing ⁓ campaigns for social media. I was like doing like coding on the website. I was doing product photography. I was coming up with like copyright like it was just it was such an all arounder and ⁓ yeah it was really good because you just get really familiar with the brand and you kind of start to understand how the brand works and where you can kind of bring in new things that still feel within like the universe is a really good ⁓ kind of first job and like having Frank there, like he was just very like he just is a designer. So he knew exactly what you know I was talking about or he was like really encouraging and just like it was such a nice place to work. and then about like six when I was there for six months, Slater approached me and I had always like kind of followed Slater. ⁓ they seemed quite like mysterious but and yeah so I interviewed with them and then got a job there as a junior. So like it I was sad to leave Cloud Picker, but I knew that I kind of wanted to kind of branch out and work with different kind across different companies and So yeah, that's kinda how I got into Slider. But I used, you know, projects from CloudPirk and then from that like a brief stint ⁓ freelancing as well to kind of ⁓ beef up my portfolio. 'Cause I think it is good to have at least something that isn't just from college, even if it's just a personal project, just to kind of show that you're you're still doing stuff and you're interested. ⁓ yeah. It is. It's so important 'cause it's, you know, it's shown that you can actually work to parameters and particularly the cloud example. You know, there's tight parameters within the brand there, but you're kind of trying to navigate new routes all the time. So that's really really good exercise. But then also you ⁓ you do have a a client to service too. Yeah. Where I suppose the the projects that you're working on for college, your lecturer is your client potentially, which is great, but there's you know there's a lot of regal room there for you know and there's a lot of time as well. You know, there's little the less time you would have spent on those projects. Yeah. Yeah. And you can kind of Almost take the project whatever direction you want to take it, which is like the joy of college that you don't yeah. So then so then you went into Slater, mysterious Slater, Eno loved to hear Yeah, I know. But it was like I didn't really know who like what was there, but I liked their work a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know what you mean. They they just put out the work, yeah. It's it's it's really ⁓ it's really ⁓ about it's always at all about the work and they do fantastic, fantastic projects. So what was that like then that start? ⁓ so yeah, when I started, Were you on site or were you working? Yeah, so actually when I joined, everyone had been at home and then we all came back in like so I basically made them all, I guess, come back in. But it was kind of like a a fresh kind of start and everyone, yeah, returned to the office. and yeah, one of the first projects or like the first project that I was briefed on was the Polyates poetry book. So that was like straight off ⁓ straight away. And yeah, when I think back, like I just like I'm just glad that they let me work on it basically. ⁓ because I think yeah, it was just it was such a big project that ⁓ they wanted me to like be involved in, which was really nice. So how it kind of worked was with that project, we kind of did like to kind of roots initially, but it was it was not like a standard book project by any means. Like it wasn't like, you know, we were approached with all of the content, everything organized, ready to go, a publishing date. Like it was not it wasn't like that. And so the the poet and he's also an artist and like prose writer as well. Paul Yates is like a really old friend of Ian Slater. And so yeah, it was kind of an unconventional like Paul is very ⁓ original, like in everything he does. And it was just kind of an unconventional, I guess, like process during the project because it wasn't It it was it was I was really just fortunate to get to work on it because I don't think it's I think it's rare that you get to work on something that, you know, is really personal to both the client and the like Ian as well on the studio. Yeah. And like there obviously we were trying to get it done, but we were also letting the process just unfold in the way that it would organically, with Paul kind of being at the center of it. Like ⁓ So It was probably like tricky for like from a project management side, but like it was kind of just within the studio for the full like I was in Slider for just over two years and I finished the project and like like left Slider pretty so it was the full like duration of my time there. ⁓ and it would kind of pick up and drop down again. But like even in terms of when we would receive like the content for the project. It would all be, you know, separate ⁓ you know, separate files. It wasn't like one huge document. And then when we were getting reviews, like Paul would send like a huge binder of all the pages printed out with like handwritten notes and stuff. So it was very like ⁓ yeah, he's very analog and he has like a way about him like Yeah, so it was it was not like a standard kind of process, but ⁓ And d did his way of working then do you think it informed the look of of the book? 'Cause it does feel like a massive undertaking in curatorship 'cause Paul Yeats has been producing work for what about sixty years. Would that be right? And so he has tones and tones of work. So that kind of taking a you know taking out work is probably was half of the the challenge to kind of keep it concise as well. But that I can just I can imagine the binder when you say it, I can imagine the binder when I see the final piece. I can imagine that it's kind of calling from there, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, defin like when I was thinking back on it like in preparation for this, like it completely was informed by him and it was like a very symbiotic process, I think. Like it couldn't have happened within a a specific time frame because like we were just getting information kind of gradually that was you know he might send something and and then we'd see something in it and be like, ⁓ we well this makes sense for this part. Where has that been? He was like, ⁓ yeah, like he just very it was almost like we we didn't even know what he had to provide kind of. So it just had to come out kind of slowly and I guess There like it's such a big project. There's so much to kind of so I'll I'll start at the start a bit for it. So we we had done we did two routes initially. ⁓ and I did a lot of research like into his poetry, ⁓ into his paintings, because he had loads lots of like he's mainly known for being an artist, ⁓ a visual artist. And yeah, so we did lots of research into that. I was trying to kind of pull out like themes, ⁓ recurring kind of subject matters and to kind of like find a concept ⁓ to kind of base the the work off. And ⁓ there was just so much. Like it was it was in ways overwhelming because there was just like he has such a rich body of work. Like ⁓ and you can go into the poems and you can go into the paintings. It was just like enormous kind of, but we did kind of gradually get through it all. And I think initially like when I so I was working on a concept and then or on one route with Emma Wilson. She's the creative director there. And then Sinead McClear was working on another route. And I think like looking back on my route, like this it it the original kind of thing that we presented, like I like I still really like it and love it and stuff. But ⁓ I think it would have been probably hard to to roll out the whole book in that way. So I think it was it was kind of yeah, trying to understand where we just let the work be the work and where we like interjected. And when we presented the two routes, like, you know, you're kinda always like waiting for the feedback, which one are they gonna prefer? But he kind of liked like everything. and so then it was kind of us then kind of merging the strongest parts of both. So and I think like in terms of like the approach, like Sinead's was more like restrained and probably more like appropriate for an actual like really long poetry book. Mine was kind of all based on like the contrasts in his work. And, you know, I was suggesting like having different characters within a typeface, a different font, depend you know, like it was just I was kind of when I look back at now, ⁓ I'm glad we kind of moved. We we developed it so much and it would that original one probably would have been really difficult to actually feasibly roll out. And I think also the original one was maybe like It was almost me trying to like be the artist myself as opposed to just letting, you know, like there's these sections that were kind of like handwriting, which I was kind of inspired by his rent handwriting. But then we kind of realized, well, we can just use his, like you don't need to be doing all that. and then yeah, certain certain things like ⁓ like we had in ours a ⁓ the slipcase kind of concept. And I think I think Shane might have had that as well. But we had kind of the the cover with his handwriting, like the title, which did end up like on the final book. And then a different kind of slipcase design, which was ⁓ based on these paintings that he has that are like on book covers and they're like a grid kind of ⁓ almost like a game kind of board. And so we kind of used that for the original cover. ⁓ and Sinead had like an image, one of his paintings on the cover. And so we ended up going with that but changing the painting. And then Sinead's like type system, I think we kind of used more of like her the way she had just like set the poems and stuff. And then she also had that tab kind of system, which I think I don't I don't think we had that in our one, but we we knew that we wanted to do that because it was such a ⁓ because Ian said we could and it was such a like it's beautiful, you know, and it really shows the the paper stuck as well. Yeah, yeah. And ⁓ yeah, once we found out that that was like a possibility, we really wanted to kind of incorporate that. And yeah, so the after that kind of first presentation, like the book kind of just developed like slowly, but it was kind of there then at the start after that, after that first round of development. And then it was like tweaking things. ⁓ and I think like one of the biggest things we were trying to figure out was the kind of section divider spread. So it's grouped by it's grouped by year kind of time period. and then within each section there's like different subsections aren't always the same type of content. So there was a lot of like content organization, like on my behalf, I think like I was trying to figure out, okay, this is like a similar type of section to this, but they appear in different sections. How do we make it? How do we sign posts that like just that everything is clear? So, you know, he had like we had the overall time sections, then we had groups of poems within the time sections that had their own title. And those section dividers, we always kind of had this idea of using like his paintings. but I think, yeah, it was on it was on ours. We had them kind of smaller at the start, and then we decided to do kind of full bleed so that those would be the sections that you could see through the cutout tabs. Because he has so many paintings and we had like scans of them at the outset of the project. But it almost felt like I think this was probably the trickiest thing is that we, you know, we would put kind of put them into the layout and see, but then you were always having to crop them to make it full bleed, which feels like the dishonesty to the original painting. And then if you put them in smaller, like it is a poetry book. It wasn't a book of his paintings. And he really wanted it was kind of his like he's always known as an artist. So this book was really like a retrospective of all of his like ⁓ writing work as well. So it was tricky. And then we kinda I don't know when this happened, but like it wouldn't have happened had we not just like let the process run its course. But ⁓ you know, if it had been rushed, we probably wouldn't have had time to do this, but we just kind of it sounds like really simple now, but we just asked him if he would create a suite of paintings specifically for the book and like to the correct dimensions and kind of like focusing on having like different colors that they would appear differently and kind of inspired, I guess, by the book and like the process ⁓ of like creating it with him. And like of course he was happy to do that and he made these like incredible. paintings and then they were photographed and that I think like tied the whole thing together once we just kind of treated it as like its own kind of art project, like almost that there was no need to kind of pigeonhole these existing paintings in when they weren't created to be in a book. ⁓ so that really I think like brought everything together and and then other things like we used his handwriting throughout the book. originally that in that first route, like I was kinda trying to recreate it and then we realized, ⁓ yeah, we can just ask him to do that. So because it's gonna be way nicer. He has like amazing, really unique handwriting and he also uses ⁓ Roman numerals in place of numbers. That was also an inspiration for the original kind of cover. And then we used like Roman numerals throughout throughout the book. And yeah, so we got him to write this was another thing that like just came during the project because he would send us notes and it was always in this like reddy, brownie ink, like he writes with like a an ink pen and often on like pink or like a kind of like like brownish paper stock. And it was kind of a recurring thing. And then we were like, ⁓ this is like obviously his like palette that he's choosing. And that kind of informed the color palette and then informed how we colorized his handwriting and stuff. ⁓ that is kind of where like a lot of the kind of red sort of thread throughout the book comes from. This kind of like dark red. but yeah that that would have if it had been on a huge time schedule, we might not have got to that point where he sends us a handwritten note with this, you know, like stuff like that that just really like the process just kind of had to evolve that way. And I think the process did become or the concept kind of just became like it was a book of his work. It didn't didn't necessarily that was the concept that it was of his work and reflecting his process and like all of his work. And it wasn't like we needed to come up with some kind of you know I think like Sinead wrote like that the book was designed in concert with the artist's work and that is really what it was. Like it it was just yeah, there was no we couldn't really rush it because Yeah. Yeah. But it it it's interesting. It's what a great project first of all to work on. I know. Yeah. What an amazing project. And then to be able to ask the artist to come to come you know, to commission the artist to do part of his homework. I don't ⁓ you know, for the for the book. But that like just even the slowness of it as well and the allowing the kind of the book to be ⁓ almost the evidence of the process of putting it together. You know, like there's so much like loveliness go like that's just You're so lucky to have been ⁓ part of that. And I think like as you said there, like, you know, you were doing the handwriting then realised you don't have to do it. Like and even even having that realisation such a at such an early point in your career that you can kind of ⁓ you you've to move out of the way and it's not you know, it's about the work as opposed to the design of the designer of the work. ⁓ that's a great l learning, you know, to to have ⁓ happen on a project. But then the project itself went forward to the awards world, the glossy awards world. So what was that like? So the D and A D pencil, what was that like winning winning that? I don't actually remember like I so I was actually out of Slater like once all this kind of had happened. I mean it was a it was cool, like I ⁓ yeah, I w was getting like the texts from people and stuff from like because I'm still in touch with people that work there. but yeah it was it was just surreal. But I guess like ⁓ yeah that stuff is obviously great but I try not to like think on it too much. But I I just remember like everyone saying like that's a really big deal, you know, like that is actually, you know, a big thing. but it was such a like collaborative. Yeah. Like I think I had like my schedule allowed for me to kind of work on it. But it was completely like decisions were, you know, made like Sinead and Emma and Ian and Paul as well. Like yeah, it was very collaborative, but I was the one that was like Yeah, making sure it would I I was like, I want this to be finished. And ⁓ you know like there was You could just kind of change things for forever almost. And even like things like the cover, like we had a different painting on there and then but we weren't like a hundred percent on it. And then Paul said offhandedly, like, ⁓ this painting is like the closest thing I've done to a self portrait and we were like, Okay, well then we should probably use that. Like you there's just so much you want to have a reason for everything. So Yeah, I think that I'm I'm glad it did so like well in awards because it was such like a labour of love for like for the studio as well and it was such like a personal project for the studio like ⁓ and like Ian and stuff. So yeah, I'm glad that it did. And I think probably like the timing as well. You know, like you s Slater obviously are a beautifully collaborative ⁓ studio and they have that culture anyway, but Just at the timing as you describe it, you know, coming back to the office having been away and everyone being able to work together yeah for the first time. And then to work on on this was just such a a a lovely welcome, kinda welcome coming to the studio and a nice introduction for you as well. And it's interesting the the awards kind of world, you know. I think designers have a bit of a funny relationship to awards, love, hate kind of kind of thing. But I think that D and A D ones are quite a global benchmark, you know, it is a very international one. I know there's there's awards, you know, like in every country, every country has their own design awards. but the I I think the D and A D one specifically is quite is quite global. And I think that I think that's why maybe people feel it is such a big deal because you are most likely going to be pitched against peers across the globe, you know, rather than, you know, your your your like local kind of community. So yeah, it's it is a it is a funny one. But I suppose it then it gives you the the designer then a you know a a greater platform and you know the benefits of of being part of that process is yeah is you know is great as well. Yeah. So that was such a such a high starting point. So then so so then where to next? What was the next kind of the next step in in in the process? So you say you you left Slater And what what did you leave Slater for or why? I wanted to be able to travel like a little that was kind of a main a big thing. Like I've always like wanted to like live abroad and I wanted to kind of yeah, I guess have more flexibility to do that. And that was kind of a big part. And then I also Yeah, I just felt like I kind of it was kind of I I suppose like with the book ending, it was it did feel like an ending of like a whole chapter, like because once it was off to print, it was like, ⁓ my gosh, this is something that's been I've been thinking about or like has been a a weekly kind of thing. And yeah, but mainly I wanted kind of flexibility. I kinda like I was always kind of interested in freelancing. ⁓ like my dad works for himself and I always kind of liked the idea of that and like being able to kind of work with different studios and work across different projects with different clients and kind of obviously like freelancing gives you a lot of flexibility, which at that point, like in time I really wanted. and yeah, so I kind of left with the plan to take like I think I left in November and then I was going to take Christmas off and then kind of start freelancing or kind of figure out if there was something else I wanted to do. But Then the the IDI designer residence program was like advertised. and I think I applied for that before Christmas, just like it would be good to have something like this could open doors to different things and kind of like kind of I could hit the ground running in the new year with like a freelance project if I got it. And then I d was lucky enough to get it. And that kind of just really like propelled it forward because I had like a focus. I had at least one project, that's all you need to start. and ⁓ yeah, it just kind of gave me confidence and taught me a lot. Like I remember so that I'll just like explain that residency was basically five it was pairing five designers that were either based in the West of Ireland or from the West of Ireland with five companies in the West of Ireland, ⁓ in and around Galway to kind of solve like a problem that the company was having and the it was kind of like an open sort of brief experience. It was kind of like matching the designers as best they could with like the different companies and ⁓ kind of seeing what would result from the residency, which was like there was a certain like time period on it and like there was also, you know, supports in place. Like we had you there and like also like we were all assigned a mentor. Like I was w ⁓ assigned Fuchsia Macquarie and she was kind of helping me as well. So it was like a great first freelance project because, you know, you weren't totally on your own. Like you had kind of the structure. But then yeah, I taught like I remember doing a call with you and you were talking about like writing the brief. And I had never really had to like do that. Like that was done for me in Slater. Obviously you're kind of writing it as you go, but I remember then being like, I really need to write this brief and I was I did such a like detailed one. and I was paired with Cree, which is ⁓ a heart and stroke charity in Galway. so they kind of work on they do loads of stuff, but they ⁓ work on kind of like prev helping people to prevent like cardiovascular events, so like a heart attack or a stroke. And they also, you know, do like pop up clinics in their center and they offer ⁓ they have like accommodation at their kind of they have this custom built center, Cree House, in Galway, and they have, you know, accommodation for people that maybe their family members are in the hospital nearby and they just do loads of work and they're I think they're been around since like nineteen eighty five, maybe. ⁓ funnily enough, my my mom is American and Cree was she worked in Cree here. That was her first job ⁓ in Ireland. So she like knew the people Yeah, so weird. and yeah, so the kind of like the brief was open in a way. It was kind of dependent on the w which kind of organization you're paired with. So there was a lot of kind of initial kind of discussion about like what we would try to achieve within ⁓ the time and where kind of help, like design help was needed most. And I don't think I don't think Caree had like ever engage with like a designer in that kind of way. So ⁓ I think yeah it was like a good experience for them as well. And basically there was kind of two problems that then sort of we were able to merge together. So they were kind of having trouble around like their messaging around like prevention. So when we say prevention, it's like we're referring to prevention of like ⁓ yeah cardiovascular events and like heart disease and heart failure. ⁓ and then also they have this purpose built headquarters, Cree House. And it's like it was like a new building, but there was no, I suppose, like stamp on the building to say like this is Cree. Like it could have been for lots of different organizations. So we kind of decided to sort of merge those two and to design environmental graphics for the building that would also kind of ⁓ have messaging around prevention in like a fun and kind of welcoming way. so that was like an interesting process, even just figuring out what this is going to be. And ⁓ yeah, that came from like a lot of research and then conversations with them. And then like because it wasn't like they were kind of wasn't like they said, okay, we have we want to do this and this is what we wanted to say. I was also kind of like coming up with the content. ⁓ so and I'm obviously not an expert on ⁓ cardiovascular disease or anything like that, although I did learn a little bit ⁓ when I was working there, but ⁓ so I did like a lot of research across like what they're saying right now, like how they speak about it and like ⁓ trying to distill it down into like key kind of points. So I had like ⁓ you know, all of the causes of this and like how to kind of frame them in like a more positive way. So instead of saying like I don't know, like instead of saying like do exercise, you know, it was like something like move your body, you know, just like kind of ways to like make it more fun and make it like action based as well, all the copywriting. And then I also kind of was developing like an illustration style. So I did like I did two routes and one of them was it was kind of like a similar concept, but I suppose like a different way of doing it. I wanted it to like Cree has this logo with a big red heart in the middle of it, which is like very iconic ⁓ around like Galway anyway. And so I wanted to kind of like use that symbol because obviously it's such a Such a known symbol of the heart. ⁓ I wanted to use it but in a different way. So I was kind of looking at illustrations where maybe they were all built from this symbol, or maybe they were built from like parts of the heart and stuff like that. So I did like initial kind of sketches on that. And then I did two, yeah, two routes, and one was kind of more like full body illustrations and maybe more I thought that they were gonna pick that route. ⁓ it seemed kind of more on brand for like the sector and stuff. I don't know, it seemed a bit more conventional. And then the other one was a bit a bit more different in terms of like it was more kind of bold and it was lots of like kind of icons with bold text and this kind of almost like patchwork structure of getting all the messages kind of in one piece. And they actually decided to go with that one which was like I was surprised, but I was really happy that was my preference as well. ⁓ and then it was kind of just taking like some elements from the other route, like mainly more the tone of the colours, and then kind of merging the two. And then also focusing like really honing down the messaging and also the points in the building where these would appear because the building has like these huge windows that has like a window when you enter the building it has like it had lots of there was a lot of places to put things but obviously we didn't want to put something everywhere it would be too much. And so it was kind of picking it kind of worked out well. There was like three key messages and three key locations. And we kinda yeah developed whether it was going to be a window vinyl or a wall graphic kind of based on the location and the message. And yeah, it just it worked out. I worked out it's nice when something like that happens, like you've an even number of what you're trying to achieve and ways to achieve it. and really love the copywriting on that project. Yeah, so strong, it was just so clever, you know. I think that worked really, really well to try kind of bring it all together. So it really kind of showcases your love of of writing. Yeah, it was it was fun. Like I I do generally like in a project I would I would write like, you know, twenty things that do the same thing and then maybe like one or two of them are are the winners. But yeah, that that is fun for me because I was trying to think like what would, you know, I want to see or what would like make me look at it or or kind of laugh or because the the building as well is used for lots of different purposes. So, you know, we kinda had to be like sensitive to all types of people that might be there. Like maybe they have a family member in hospital or maybe they're just going for like an information night or something. So yeah, the language really wanted it to be like kind of accessible for everyone and engaging but not like and kind of not too scientific or too kind of down, I guess. We wanted it to kind of be uplifting and ⁓ Also like like this kind of concept of signposting that you've arrived in Cree and you're kind of at the center of Cree as well, like was really important. There was just, yeah, a lot of like I think the copywriting really is like the best part of that project, like bringing it bringing it all together and ⁓ The illustrations is b the illustration style is beautiful. It's so effortless and you know, you can really see how it's coming from the brand. But yeah, I just think the the the language is just clever and it's you know, as you say, it's not kind of talking down to people or, you know, kinda saying, ⁓ you know, do more exercise. You know, it is in a it's a fun way of kind of introducing like, you know, good better behaviour ⁓ into the language of the work, you know. So yeah yeah, no, it was really clever. And it was actually quite interesting that that project i because the the the five designers that you mentioned, they've all gone on and done f fantastic things like yourself. and the companies actually ⁓ in in a lot of cases ha are still using the designers that they were paired with because ⁓ I remember I worked with IDI at the time ⁓ on that project ⁓ to bring you know design and new talent ⁓ via the new now that you mentioned which incidentally was the platform that it was created ⁓ by myself and Kim Mackenzie Doyle when there was no a grad show. So it was really about kind of sh showcasing, you know, younger talent, new talent, saying like it's it's here and it's in it's in the West of Ireland as well. And ⁓ the clients, you know, I'm I remember speaking to them, they were quite they were just as, you know, anxious about working with designers 'cause they didn't really know what is going to happen here. So It was actually quite interesting how that dynamic was, you know, rolled out and and everyone worked so well together. and it was great to be supported by Galway Culture Company and crew as well, ⁓ at the time. But, you know, it's it's those things. It's like kinda a nearly it's almost like the experience and and getting someone to experience working with a z designer actually demystifies the whole thing because I think some clients might feel or c you know, ⁓ businesses might feel that a designer might come in and be kinda, you know arty, you know, and not strategic. I think all the way through your presentation and the meetings that we had, you were very strategic about what you were trying to do, what you were trying to deliver for them, what was a achievable within the parameters and what they could get the most value out of it. So that was a real consideration, along with the visual points as well, you know. So I think they were they were really impressed by you and I'm sure they've been back in touch to do More works. Yeah, I did I did their strategy document that later that year, but I think yeah, I think that they still use like the illustrations and the type base. Like it was kind of like a little mini brand edition sort of for them. So I think that they do still still use it. Yeah. Yeah. It was really it was really good. fantastic to showcase your skills because you do have you've a a a great ability with illustration. and and typography, you know, and it's not always the the case that that that that's the that's how how it lands, but you you kinda you marry the two of them really, really well ⁓ and they work really really well in combination ⁓ with then obviously your your your book design, award winning book design skills. So after after that then then your you kinda your next project then was an Irish language project, is that right? Yeah, yeah, I did a yeah, I did a couple, but that was kind of the next big one. And I think having done Cree like that really helped me to then get this one. so it was a project with ⁓ yeah, the Irish language centre, Laura Lanthuguelga at Maynooth University. ⁓ and it was it was similar kind of brief to Cree in that they wanted to create like wall graphics, environmental graphics to kind of signpost ⁓ their area of I think it's the arts building. ⁓ I could be wrong. and they it's the director there, Eva Neglen, she she found me via a friend in Seek design that I freelanced for them a little bit as well. And yeah, I think having the Cree project like yeah it was really was really beneficial to have that. and yeah, basically the centre is kind of responsible. They do a lot of like teaching and testing around the Irish language and, you know, they offer loads of like resources for language learners. And it's just like amazing ⁓ organization within the university. Like I really yeah, I just ⁓ I really like what they do and like believe in what they do. So it's really nice. ⁓ project we asked to to work on and like it was I guess like it was there was so I think it's funny like with projects around like the Irish language I just feel like in Ireland we have such a sense of like Irishness and like our Irish identity and I've noticed it like ⁓ living abroad like we just love being Irish and like there was almost there was like too much I did a lot of research at the outside of the project and possibly like it was like too much, like it was there was just so many things that I wanted to incorporate. but we did kind of yeah, there was definitely a process of kind of editing with that project. so the initial kind of how I would generally approach like a project like that is I Yeah, I do a lot of research, but not just like visual research. I like to like research into the subject matter. And because this was, you know, the Irish language centre and it was kind of like the idea was kind of to create like the Irish language centre, they want it to be kind of like it's like a miniature guail tuct in the school in the university. But also like Mayneath is like I did another project for them ⁓ this year and ⁓ has a really strong history of like ⁓ promoting the Irish language and the university or like a lot of students and staff speak Irish or want to speak Irish. Like they've just done a huge report on it, ⁓ which I've helped design. And yeah, so the the task was tr trying to kind of signify as like a it was kind of signposting to say like you have kind of arrived in like the centre of Irish at Maine University. But then also showing what they do as well. ⁓ so it was kind of like very similar, like brief to Cree in a way. and I think yeah, I did kind of three kind of mood boards at the start and kind of three different concepts. And it was kind of one concept but then taking parts from another one. So the kind of concept was this idea of like weaving the way and it was kind of like the interconnectivity of like all of the things that they do and then also kind of bringing in some like Irish kind of elements of, you know, like craft and stuff like that. And ⁓ then they I had another kind of mood board that was more like I suppose like the wall graphics you would see in like ⁓ in dairy, like the murals up there and stuff, like kind of establishing place. ⁓ so it's kind of a combination of two and we had Two kind of walls to work with, and one was kind of the one that you saw initially when you came in. So we kind of used that as our sort of like big kind of bold, like you you are here type message. And then the other one was kind of explaining kind of what they do. And I think so my first kind of there was just a lot of like the mood boards were quite detailed and possibly too detailed, like there was a lot kind of a lot to kind of take inspiration from and I always try to yeah have like a rational kind of approach and does this have a place here? Why did I do this? Or and I had done also like research, like historical research into like kind of the original like I suppose like visuals of the Irish language, like the first kind of book published in Irish. And so there was just a lot of things to kind of incorporate and they loved like all the research. But then distilling it down was hard. ⁓ I did find it hard and the the first kind of stage I think I probably hadn't distilled it down enough, maybe. I I still like all those we just simplified it gradually, which I guess is like part of the process, but I had kind of created the system of like almost like little posters that were all connected together and each one kind of had a a phrase, a saying to kind of represent an aspect of the what the center does and ⁓ and then when I presented that they really liked it, but we kind of like distilled it down and also updated kind of like the color palette as well to kind of like modernize it. ⁓ because they had like kind of brand colours which I probably was too close to and wasn't trusting my own maybe like got on them and I think that they they even asked me in the that first presentation like what do you think of the colours? And I think maybe I was giving them what I thought that they would expect. And there was also like I remember there was like a a floor kind of graphic in there which had like really distinct colours. And ⁓ I was trying to kind of make it all come together. But ⁓ I think once we changed the color palette, it really like lifted it and felt like Yeah, what it was kind of the tonally it was like more in line with what we were kind of thinking. And then also simplifying like the typography as well. I think like with something that is like Irish language based, there's so much obviously like a rich typographic history, it's hard not to look at all of that and it's hard to kind of like you really need to step outside a bit and look at it. And I think the first version I did, like looking back, it probably wasn't as legible as it should have been. But then we kind of finessed it and reduced the like number of typefaces. And we ended up using Farset and First to you the it's a typeface, yeah, based on like signage in ⁓ in Belfast. And yeah, I think that that this was a real process of like simplifying it each stage. ⁓ to have a stronger kind of outcome and to have a better hierarchy. ⁓ but that was kind of I don't think I could have done that at the first stage because I think they had to see what I had done to be like, ⁓ we actually want to highlight one, two, and three the most and then and I always try to do that like with any content, like have a clear a hierarchy or like if I'm working with copy writing like short phrases like which ones do we want people to see first, which ones ⁓ are like kind of a fun addition, sort of. ⁓ but yeah, the theme of kind of weaving and interconnectivity and this whole kind of idea of like they're trying to bridge the gap between Irish language like research and then practice. ⁓ so bringing it from yeah, I suppose like learning about it to actually like everybody using it. So there was just always this kind of like idea of like Connecting different things and making things easier for people. And I think that concept carried through but in a way that I didn't expect it would. Like But yeah. And do you think your confidence is kind of growing in that you're you said there you're you kind of were showing them what you thought they expected or thought they maybe wanted, rather than maybe y you know, what you think you should be advising them to to go with. Yeah, I think on that one Like I do think I'm I generally would be, you know, I would show what I think I think on that one there was just I had done so much research that it was kind of like distilling it down. I think I couldn't see until I actually showed it to them. And they were asking me questions, you know, like it was mainly like the color palette and stuff. And I was like, Yeah, I kind of realized ⁓ okay, I should have I had done so many And that was fine because I had done lots of variations. So we kind of broke my standard like stages and I sent them like screenshots of all the kind of colour iterations I'd done and then we went from there. They preferred one that I hadn't like chosen to present. so yeah, I think like my confidence has grown or I think with that project I was so happy to work on it and ⁓ like working with the public body, like it's they have to add you to the supplier list. It's not a straightforward process. So they were really like kind of like vying for me to work on it. So I think I put pressure on myself then. And then maybe my decision making wasn't as like a hundred percent. ⁓ like it was kind of a like a real like turning kind of project for me. Or I felt, you know, working with like a public institution and they were like really fighting for me to be able to work on it because often with universities they have a long supplier list and it's easier for them to use someone that's already on it. And once you get on it, it's great because then they keep coming back to you. But yeah, so I think I just I really wanted to do a good job and I probably got on my own head a little bit. But it all was fine in the end. And then the application, so you get the approval, the artwork is approved, you're like great. Then the application onto the the wall on site itself. How did that work? Yeah. So that was Can't remember the name of the company, but they yeah, it was outs so I was actually in Italy at the time. Or actually I think I was in Wales. ⁓ but when I was done, it's just setting some work. Italy, Wales, Sanking, who knows Milan Puelli, who so I would supply like a very detailed like artwork kind of I suppose like master file, like explaining the finishes, and then we got like samples printed and applied to on a different section of the wall and stuff. and then yeah, it was all one kind of vinyl that then was like sealed onto the brick so that you kinda had that like pattern of the brick behind it. We kind of decided to do it that way. so yeah, it's a funny one like sometimes like I think ideally I could should have I could have been there, but from the outset of the project I was like, I'm not in the country. So yeah. But yeah, it's a I think you just get better and better at l knowing what to ask printers. And I also think like it's another thing, like I think I've learned that some people know more about certain subjects than you do. So say like I learned that ⁓ a lot like working with Joanne Byrne. Like she does obviously like she's an amazing like interpretive ⁓ designer and she just knows so much about that like physical kind of application and I was actually working on Mystic Dublin with her when it was being when this project was being applied so I could ask her questions. ⁓ but yeah I think things like that it's good to just ask printers, ask the craftspeople and like the people that are gonna be doing it because they probably do know more or they might know a better finish on something or a better way to do something. So yeah, she she really taught me that like it doesn't have to be a big deal to kind of just ask a question like like that and kind of not presume that you know exactly how it's gonna come out. Like you need to kind of work with the suppliers and printers and they probably know more about it. And they know workarounds. They know workarounds and how to get it to look. Like if you know how you want it to look in the end, they'll know how to get it there. How to do it, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I always whenever I'm you know, sending a quote or something, I'll always say, Or whatever you recommend for this finish. Like I might not know I don't know what you have in stock. I don't know. So yeah, that is a thing that you kinda have to you don't really do that in college or anything. You kinda just have to learn through experience. And I had I had kind of like project managed that side of the Cree project as well. So it was good that I'd done that in advance. Yeah. And then moving into kind of packaging, you really like the the knowledge of substrates within packaging is a huge area all of its own. So your your project then that you kinda ⁓ worked on for the kind of ⁓ the eyewear Yeah, that's a whole nother ballgame altogether. And again, you know, you do need to work really closely with the the producers producers of the packaging. So you might maybe bring us through that one. ⁓ yeah, so that was a project for pupils, which is an IWER ⁓ company founded by Niall Sullivan. It's ⁓ he's based in Oxford, I think. And yeah, he designs the glasses. And I think they're produced actually in like northern Italy. And but he works like he goes over and kind of works with them. and yeah, this project ⁓ was an interesting one because I think like the process informed the outcome as well. But like it was kind of a a really nice kind of project email to get because he basically, you know, he he has the existing brand. of pupils, which is kind of like the the word mark, this like dark green kind of signature color. And then he had his packaging, but he really wanted to redesign it and kind of elevate it to make it more of an experience and like a keepsake for people and also to kind of communicate like what pupils values. And ⁓ in his original email he kind of said that he He wanted to integrate more like Irishness into the packaging, like con contemporary way, and that he liked in my work, like references to film and literature. So it was kind of like a good, I think, like marriage ⁓ for the project and for me. And he was really open to kind of any sort of ideas. He didn't have any, I suppose, like expectation except that it needed to obviously hold a pair of glasses. ⁓ but yeah, he wanted to be like a high finish, but really like conceptual and really like a s a kind of like as you're unpa unwrapping and there's kind of a story unfolding. ⁓ so for that one, ⁓ I kind of started ⁓ because there was so so much to kind of take inspiration from and he had like really nice kind of inspiration points for me to look at like film, literature, Irishness, which are all things I love, like researching. So I was trying to sort of look for I suppose links between maybe like kind of trying to look at, you know, famous examples of glasses, spectacles, like within an Irish kind of context. And I was trying to also kind of come up with the concept. So I would have done like a lot of kind of I guess copywriting to try and establish the what the concept is. So I had like all these kind of different, I suppose, sayings. And yeah, I tend to write like little like phrases almost like almost like a cat like yeah, well like I was saying, like a title for the project if it was a a book or something. But ⁓ I I liked this idea of like ⁓ a pair of glasses as like something that you look through. And it's like a window in a way. And that's kind of like how you're seeing the world. And I suppose like when you wear a pupil's pair of glasses, you're seeing the world through their lens and also through like an Irish lens, because it's Irish founded and Irish designed. And I just thought that was like a nice kind of hook and a nice kind of poetic kind of play on on it. And he really wanted to kind of show like hit like the interest. like I guess the brand values of like design, craftsmanship, architecture, literature, film, like within the packaging. so those were kind of like key kind of hooks that I was looking at. ⁓ and really just that idea of like an Irish viewpoint. and then obviously I also had to research like the packaging format as well. ⁓ because he was kind of open to anything for that. So I kind of looked at a few different different kind of like ways that the box could open. And then I was actually in ⁓ I was in Fl Florence at the time when I designed this and I went to a cafe just like randomly w like and the cafe used to be like an optician's or a an Iwears store and they had all the original cabinets, which are like the where they would have kept glasses, which kind of are just like a cabinet with all these little box drawers that you slide out about the same dimensions as the box. So then we kind of I really wanted to do like a sliding box and that was his preference as well. So we kind of took inspiration from that. and then yeah, I was looking for examples of, you know, glasses and eyewear design in Ireland. And obviously, because he had mentioned literature, that was kind of in my mind and a lot of like famous Irish poets and writers are kind of well known for wearing glasses as well. Or there's famous portraits of them wearing glasses. So that was kind of ⁓ a hook as well. Like Joyce of James Joyce obviously is one. And then ⁓ there's like a famous photo of Samuel Beckett wearing glasses. So I liked that kind of idea as well. And then I was just finding more and more as I went through like I found this like I was looking for like design and kind of innovation in Ireland and found this bridge in County Clare that's called like the Spectacle Bridge. And it was designed over this really deep gorge. And it would have been like too heavy. So they cut a circle out. So it was like a little perfect circle window. And it kind of has this like, and it's called the spectacle bridge because it looks like a pair of glasses. So I was like, okay, this is we'll use this as well. And so it was just lots of like little things that I found. And then Also, ⁓ because he had kind of mentioned architecture, I was looking at like kind of st street vernacular and like a lot of you know, for the last like three hundred years or so, like we used like a lot of like Neo Palladian architecture, which is very like symmetrical and like evenly spaced windows and all this stuff was kind of just like feeding into this concept which I landed on, which was kind of like the idea of a window to your world that like you know, when you wear glasses, you're kind of like physically changing how you see the world around you. And so when you're choosing like a pair of pupils, you're looking through the world through an Irish lens, like no pun intended kind of thing. But and then yeah, the idea that we would kind of pay homage to like different kind of aspects of Irish culture ⁓ in connection with this idea of seeing and looking at things in a different way. ⁓ on the packaging. So ⁓ the the kind of yeah, it just kind of developed from that. I did lots of I I really liked the idea of like I had done mood boards, which I would usually yeah, usually would do a few like two or three kind of mood boards with a kind of concept behind them before I kind of start designing just 'cause I think it's more like time and cost efficient for the client as well. So I had done that and ⁓ he really liked the idea of a cutout window within the box, which obviously linked into the concept as well. So yeah, my initial kind of like ideation was kind of around those shapes and how that would work with the box and how you could kind of get some sort of like interaction ⁓ as you opened it. So we kind of I landed on this idea of the little cutout at the top and then when you pull it out like something is kind of revealed. so again, linking into that concept of like seeing and sight and Yeah, I think my original like sketches all kind of had that in them, but ⁓ there was like a number of ways to do it. And then in terms of like kind of image making or something, ⁓ like more of a kind of illustrative or visual element, again I was I was in Florence and I was looking at like you know, the circular like crowned glass. and that obviously remind like I w I had found it in a lot of my research into like Irish architecture and then I saw it in ⁓ Florence as well and was like, ⁓ that's it's always circular and it kind of connects with this like idea of a window or like a portal into different things. So ⁓ there was kind of image making on the box based on that. And then when you revealed it ⁓ when you pulled out the kind of the inner box. So it was it was sliding box. When you pulled it out, you would get a a kind of quote from ⁓ I think it was a Samuel Becker quote that we the final box was. ⁓ and Yeah, it was it was just kind of, I suppose like integrating those things into the packaging in a way that felt like organic and not too much. And then we also like I I guess we ha I just done so much research and like the there was a lot in the concept that then I wanted to kind of like reflect that because for me I find that stuff really interesting, like when ⁓ when you get a a box or something and there's something to discover and it's not just like This is our brand values or this is our, you know, like a a really something I suppose we'd put so much work into the process and then we didn't want that to just be lost. So we had like a a little kind of fold out poster that was almost like explaining like the concept of the the packaging and I guess also just showing that the brand, like pupils really values like this this stuff and values research and culture and literature and all those things. So, ⁓ that was also like a nice inclusion. And then yeah, it also just kind of got to explain the process a bit more and, you know, that then the process really informed the final the final outcome. ⁓ so yeah, it was it's good along. Because it's it's you know, and it actually it's it's kind of cinematic. Like, you know, it's so beautifully done. It brings in all of those strands really well without feeling cluttered and trying to kind of embed too many points of meaning. But it actually i if you if someone told me this was in a film and Annie Atkins created it and it was like part of the plot, I'd be like, okay, I'm there. You know what I I'm like, I want to see the film. It has that kind of cinematic feel to it. it's i I just I I not that I wish I wore glasses, but I wish I I could pack these glasses just for the packaging alone, you know. But You know, it is it's it's interesting. You're in an optician's and you notice things and it just kinda occurs to me as you've been talking through the projects and your starting point in Galway, you were always kinda involved in looking and seeing, you know, you're always kinda you're putting in front of people, putting ideas out there, involved in the community, kinda like ⁓ always kind of collecting research in in a in a way, you know, and your projects are really informed by your reality, you know, and like y you can see it in in the work. It's like, you know, the films that you like, the books that you read, the the authors that you know, the the things you find interesting, you know, they really are coming from you. ⁓ and it's it's it's interesting 'cause it's like, you know, there's a certain amount of that that is conditioning, but there's a certain amount of that that is just, you know, your behavior, just the way you are, the way you are curious. And I think certainly yours is the latter. ⁓ you're you've got a a curious mind and and a great outlet for it as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think like yeah, I definitely collect things like and my like I think that I've always kind of had like my my So my family is like my mom's side the family is American and my grandparents had we would go there every summer and they had this big house with just so many so many things in it and like I would go back and see the same things every year and I think that sense of like archiving things and keeping things is like really in our family and like observing things and like appreciating those things as well. Like my grandmother kept like She lived in New York and she kept like all of her play bills from every musical she went to and like we would look through those as kids, you know, just like stuff like that. That yeah, I I definitely like nostalgia, I think, like plays into some of my work as well. And I yeah, I just like the things that I like and try to yeah, have them influence things. Yeah. Everything we're you know, we're made up of all our experiences, aren't we? Yeah. Yeah, it's probably the same for most people. Yeah. But I suppose because the podcast is called Rough Draft, ⁓ is there ⁓ a rough draft that you have ⁓ at the moment? Maybe it's a project that you're working on, a project you'd like to work on, an area you'd like to explore or a discipline that you'd like to try. Is there anything within your your own practice that you feel is, you know, on the horizon or are next next to be investigated? yeah, I have lots of things, but I think I I really like I suppose it's not necessarily design. Well it is, but I would like to explore more like textile design and like embroidery. I love like all that stuff. I would love to find a way to incorporate that into my work more because that's kind of something that I do on like to relax, like on the side. And I would like to explore that further, whether it's doing a course or something. Like I did a an embroidery an embroidered textile design course in NCAD like five years ago and I've kind of always had this like inkling to do something with that. Like I do like working with my hands and but I don't know what that will be. So yeah. But yeah, something something like that. And I think as well just like living like in Florence for like a time like obviously Florence is like at the center of you know, like renaissance design and it's like it is like an open air museum, but there's so much like modern design there as well and like artisans and craft makers and that is just part of like a daily life there. And there was always something on like something, some workshop you could go to for free or some group meeting up like I would like to either partake in more of those things here in like Dublin now that I'm back or you know, maybe like set something up. I don't know if I wanna commit to doing that. But there's just always kind of something and like a lot of printmakers and jewelry mak like just everything. ⁓ they have so many artisan shops that are still like surviving, although they have like decreased in ⁓ the last number of years. But I just think that stuff gives people so much joy, like a physical kind of way to connect with people without, you know, necessarily having to pay rent in a studio or do something like these kind of pop up kind of things where people just get to try something new like without, you know, like we were trying, you know, like ceramics there just randomly. And I know you can do that here, but it's everywhere there. Like, you know, it's just like you can't really avoid it. Yeah. So Yeah. No, it is true. It's so important 'cause those creative outlets are really what ⁓ you know saved people during COVID and ⁓ you know are the way in which you you kind of take a rest and a break from from your day to day and and kinda they are mindfulness and meditation all of their own. So they are really important. So I look forward to coming on to coming along to some expectations. I'll hold you to that. But Neve listen it's been so lovely to speak to you and thank you so much for sharing your process and all those Brilliant projects that you've been able to work on. And I wish you the very best for your future long career. Thank you. Thanks for having me and all the travel that you're going to do, of course, as well. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so lovely. If you like that, why not find us over on our Patreon, where you'll find lots more podcasts, video content, and case studies and lots, lots more. That's Bounce Creative over on patreon.com.