Danielle Townsend: Today's guest got into art through music and into technology through curiosity. Porick Freeman is a Dublin-based creative developer and media artist who works at the intersection of sound, image, and human perception, systems that generate visuals in real time from the data his synthesizers produce and then performing live inside those systems, navigating through audiovisual spaces. He designed himself. Sounds so easy. ⁓ He grew up in rural Ireland and started collecting records at 13, moving into DJing and then synthesis and then a master's that took him into abstract animation, psychoacoustics. We'll have to find out what that is, and the psychology of audiovisual experience. He then moved to New York, then on to Melbourne, where he was working in the National Gallery of Victoria and eventually teaching ⁓ interactive media to fine art animation students. He luckily then for us came back to Dublin and was freelancing as a creative developer, building interactive installations, AOR, VOR experiences, mobile applications, while to perform and make work as well. in twenty twenty one he performed at the Light Moves Festival in Limerick, supporting Beatrice Dillon. He made River Poem, a collaboration with Dr. Janine Najee that retrains GPT two on Finnegan's Wake. And generated new Joyce and Pros and projection mapped it live onto a three-dimensional model of Dublin City along the River Liffey. Then he also on Arts Council funded project structures in 2024, and we'll speak a little bit about that later. He even made time to stop at Bounce 2025, the first bounce, ⁓ mesmerized the audience ⁓ Trinity College with his performance that closed the show. What I want to talk to Pork today. Is about what he describes as the core of his practice designing an audio visual space and then navigating through it. The gap between designing a system and performing inside it, how he makes decisions when the outcome is never fixed, and what it takes to work seriously in a field that sits somewhere between music, visual art, code, and cognitive science, and doesn't quite belong in any of them. Porik, welcome to Rough Draft.

Pauric: Thanks, Danielle.

Danielle Townsend: So can you start off maybe the start of your journey? Like how did you get into design and creativity?

Pauric: ⁓ it was probably so like like you mentioned, I was ⁓ playing records from from when I was young, so I was always interested in music. ⁓ and when I I think when I when I finished high school then I I was going into college and I did a my my degree was in communications and creative media. And that was where I was ⁓ introduced to a couple of other fields like outside of music. So we were working a little bit with ⁓ some visual design, some interactive design, which was probably one of the one of the more ⁓ interesting areas that I kinda took on at that point. ⁓ and then ⁓ there was a little bit of music as well within that or or sound production. ⁓ and then everything else that goes along with kind of media studies, theory and sociology. And that's kind of where I got introduced to a lot of other fields that probably fed into the work that I'm doing now. I think yeah.

Danielle Townsend: And so just to ask, just I'm I'm I'm always interested to know. So you started collecting records at thirteen. Do you what was your first record? Is this something something really credible?

Pauric: No. ⁓ no, it w well there was I remember we got six records and we it was myself and my brother, my older brother, and ⁓ we bought them from HMV Records, I think, ⁓ which was on Grafton Street. So obviously we had to travel up from Monaghan to to go to the record store. And we bought six records. I can't remember them all, but there was a I think there was two Moro Picado ⁓ records in there and that's that's kind of the only ones I remember from it. I still

Danielle Townsend: Funny that, isn't it? I don't remember any of the rest of them. ⁓ but your so your early love of music then, do you think that really kinda brought you into the the kind of career that you have now?

Pauric: Yeah. I I think so. I guess like where I grew up there's not like a huge at least in in that time anyway, there wasn't like a lot of a lot of other art around to see. ⁓ so I didn't come from a a family of of artists or anything like that. My ⁓ my parents didn't work in those fields or or n nor anyone else in in like aunties or uncles or anything like that. So it was kind of a something that I wasn't really exposed to. And I think it was ⁓ I got exposed to music, ⁓ to electronic music quite young. So I just became interested in that. And then it wasn't until I ⁓ went to college that I kind of realized that there's all these other disciplines that are ⁓ interesting and that that actually suits ⁓ the way that I think or or what I'm interested in.

Danielle Townsend: And then growing up in Monaghan and you're saying like there's not there wasn't a huge amount of access to kind of art, like what were you interested in as you were growing up?

Pauric: Music. I was like it was just purely music. I mean when I was younger there was, you know, other things like Lego and and different things when I was ⁓ when I was a child, but ⁓ when I kinda hit be or became a teenager then it was music and I was pretty obsessed with it, I think, at that point. and yeah, I was ⁓ I started DJing and then ⁓ started producing music or trying to produce music or trying to find out. It was kinda different back then because

Danielle Townsend: Weird.

Pauric: Like it was the access to information was different so you had to like there was the internet wasn't really there as it is now today where there's ⁓ such ⁓ it's so easy to access information or learn how to do things. ⁓ but it was mostly based around buying magazines. So you'd have to buy a magazine and then ⁓ the magazine would have information about how to do a certain thing. And those magazines weren't really available in Monhan, so you had to wait until you were in Dublin or something like that. And then you pick up a magazine and and then you'd read about perhaps some software for making music and then you'd you'd try that out. Yeah. And that was kind of how it went.

Danielle Townsend: ⁓ yeah, and then and and then I read ⁓ in an article that you you started then kind of getting into interaction design and programming with Flash. ⁓ so I d I it brings back memories of the old program flash, the heydays of Quark Express and Director and all of these kind of things. And like that the magazine, like you know, Creative Re Review would have s have information on the new software, like, you know, and I didn't I wasn't exposed to that until I went to college too and saw, ⁓ actually this is a thing, like but yeah, so what kind of things were you kind of

Pauric: Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle Townsend: tinkering around with when you started to get into kind of different software.

Pauric: Yeah, so like a couple of the modules that we were learning in that we were doing in college, ⁓ there was one that was I think it was called interactive authoring, which was ⁓ the kind of the way that it was framed in in academia, I guess, back then. and ⁓ we were introduced to Lingo, director, director and and lingo. ⁓ that was the first one. ⁓ and then ⁓ to Flash and Action Script then afterwards. ⁓ and actually when I was preparing for the podcast I I actually found all the old ⁓ Flash ⁓ games and things that that we had to produce. So it was kind of interesting to look back. Yeah, I'll I'll ⁓ I'll try and find some ⁓ screenshots and stuff. so so yeah, so that was the first time and

Danielle Townsend: ⁓ we need to see them.

Pauric: I that was that was the first time I'd been introduced to programming. ⁓ and I didn't really know much about it or or I didn't think much about it up until that point. But ⁓ I just really loved it. Particularly the the action script programming 'cause it it felt robust and and ⁓ there was a lot to explore within it. So ⁓ that's probably the first time that I got really, really hooked on some aspect of it was ⁓ flash and it was an assignment and I remember like just being obsessed with doing that assignment ⁓ 'cause it was yeah, it was just like it was just new and it was different way of working and you could write this code and then these images moved or you could p make a game or whatever and it was just yeah, it was just completely new to me I guess.

Danielle Townsend: Yeah, Flash was a lot of fun, wasn't it? And d was that the first kind of thing that you felt like I've made this? You know, it's not just I'm learning a piece of software, but I'm actually, you know, I'm experimenting and I'm trying different things and it's producing strange outcomes which I wasn't really aware were gonna happen. Was that kind of when you were doing that particular assignment? Yeah.

Pauric: Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of like like it just the fact that you Like it went from from text into something that was like had a graphical interface and then you could you could interact with it and there was a little shooting game that I had where you had to shoot aliens. ⁓ and like to get from text to that was just that that was the thing that I was kind of most interested in. And then ⁓ a lot of the kind of the logic behind it and and changing the logic and how that would change the rules within the game and different things like that. ⁓ to the point where I'd like by the end of when I when I graduated graduated from from ⁓ my undergrad, I was like fully set on just being a Flash programmer. Like that's what I wanted to be my job. ⁓ but ⁓ within a year like I think ⁓ Flash had kind of been cut from a lot or yeah yeah it was on a downward spiral at that point. So I had to ⁓ think of something else.

Danielle Townsend: Yeah. So then you moved on and ⁓ from Flash and went into much more complex kind of software and then code and data and visual systems. It must have kind of felt like a kind of alchemy then when you were able to really start to control things and get into coding.

Pauric: Yeah, yeah. So towards the end of ⁓ the undergrad ⁓ the the final projects that we worked on ⁓ in our third and fourth year w was installation. So that was and so we did two different installations and ⁓ that was the point that became ⁓ like you're starting to d pull in loads of other ⁓ software. So you there was like w both projec both installations that that I worked on at that time were sound and video based ⁓ and and interactive as well. So you were kind of pulling together like the interests in music that I had as well as ⁓ some of the the flash programming and and visual art and different things like that. So and they're all kind of coming together and you were making them talk to each other ⁓ which I guess is not really that much different than what I what I'm still doing now. Yeah.

Danielle Townsend: Yeah. And so then you kinda I suppose most of the work you do is kinda a touch designer now, ⁓ and using Ableton and and going between the two, is would that be right?

Pauric: Yeah, yeah, it's still using ⁓ other platforms as well. It just kinda depends on what the project is really. ⁓ like sometimes ⁓ things like Max MSP or processing or other other platforms come up. ⁓ it's always a case that that depending on what the project is, there's usually a a way to approach it that best suits the project ⁓ and that's I like to just kind of keep focused on that. ⁓ it just so happens that like 95% of the stuff that I want to do ⁓ touch designer is really good at doing that. ⁓ so I I do tend to be working with that particular platform ⁓ quite a lot yeah from from ⁓ interactive and video side yeah

Danielle Townsend: And then I suppose just I supp to talk about your process. So like, you know, you're designing something in your studio in Dublin and then, you know, it's gonna be experienced in another space, another place, a different country perhaps. You know, there's a you know, the the the distance between those two points, what does that look like? And can you walk us through like your process when you start a commission or start a job?

Pauric: Yeah, ⁓ I mean again it's always it's always different, but it's always useful to try and think about what that space is and give context to what the final piece will be 'cause it's it's so different looking at it on a screen in in the studio versus when it's in a space. First of all it's it's going to be bigger for starters so there's it's going to be ⁓ there's going to be a scale that's that's kinda unknown at that point. ⁓ but then there's so many other factors that come into it. And sometimes like for example with the with the structures show it's it's a show that you want to be able to perform multiple times in in a lot of different spaces. So you're trying to make it in a way that it's suitable for lots of different ⁓ or it can be adjusted ⁓ during the performance to to suit different spaces ⁓ as well. ⁓ like there's there's sometimes there's techniques to do like I I try and use ⁓ previs ⁓ to see to get an idea of what the scale will be. ⁓ and I have like kind of small little previs ⁓ systems that I can just put this put the put the video into so I can get an idea of okay this is what it looks like on stage, this is what it looks like in scale. ⁓ and it it helps you to kind of strip things down to a level that's suitable because obviously when everything is made a lot bigger it has such a ⁓ a bigger impact. So ⁓ when you're work or I find that when I'm working on a smaller screen I tend to pack more into it and then whenever I'm ⁓ whenever I get into the space and it's so much bigger it feels like it's too much ⁓ for that. So ⁓ so that's one example of where the previews can be handy to kind of get somewhat of an idea of that.

Danielle Townsend: Like working at that scale, like how is it just experience? You know, being able to like that kind of look at at something that's packed in tight on a small screen and know that it's gonna you know, is i it's gonna be too much for the the space or you know how does it how do you kind of how do you grapple with that 'cause it's all about scale really, isn't it?

Pauric: Yeah, yeah, it definitely has a has a huge effect. I mean you I I think it's it's probably similar to a lot of other ⁓ disciplines as well, where it's kind of like the ⁓ the more you can kind of strip it down to its its basics, the the the easier it will translate. ⁓ and the easier it'll translate on both a large screen ⁓ as well as ⁓ say smaller ⁓ spaces as well. ⁓ so it's just it's just a matter of I usually develop the work or develop it to a certain point and then go okay, what can I remove ⁓ while keeping it ⁓ keeping the idea still there. Yeah. And that's that's just generally the approach I go for for any of that.

Danielle Townsend: Yeah. And like how how do you describe your work? So if you were like if you were trying you know, you it's a beautiful sunny summer here in Dublin and you're out at a barbecue and you bump into someone and you're trying to explain, you know, what it is you do, what what is your kind of your party line?

Pauric: yeah, that's a good that's a good question. ⁓ I don't I don't really have one. It kind of jumps around. It it also depends on who you're talking to. Like if I'm back in Monaghan and I'm talking to my auntie, it's a it's a very different conversation than than if I'm ⁓ if I'm in if I'm in Dublin and I'm chatting to ⁓ someone someone from the arts. but ⁓ I try and describe it as ⁓

Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Yeah.

Pauric: music composition that incorporates video as well. Yeah, something something around that. ⁓ just so it's people can can I guess understand what it is straight off the bat and ⁓ if they you know if they have any ideas of of or if they if they're familiar with that area at all they can they can ask more questions from there I guess.

Danielle Townsend: Okay. Yeah. And do the aunties understand what it is you're doing?

Pauric: I I I won't like it's kind of it's difficult for them, like even with my parents, I don't think they fully understand what it is that I do. ⁓ because they just they don't they don't really see it or they don't there's no one else that they know that works in that and it so it's it's kind of difficult for them. They're really supportive, of course, ⁓ but ⁓

Danielle Townsend: Ha ha ha.

Pauric: Yeah, it's it's I think it's difficult for them to fully grasp ⁓ yeah, what it is and and why why I'm so interested in it. Yeah.

Danielle Townsend: Yeah, no it is it's a it's a I suppose it's tricky ⁓ pursuit and then it's tricky to explain it as well. And I think ⁓ most people that are involved in a creative career do find it difficult to articulate to their closest relatives, you know, what it is they actually do and yeah, it's it's it can be tough. But ⁓ you're so like your work is kinda you know, it it's visuals, it's, you know, it's animation, it's it's it's data, it's all of these different disciplines that in their own right. They have their own kind of references, they have their own, I guess. ⁓ Where are you for inspiration for your work? Like, you know, where are you getting that, finding that from? ⁓

Pauric: Yeah, ⁓ I think probably first and foremost music because just because that's I guess my my initial interest and the the area that I've studied more so ⁓ and that I'm more familiar with. ⁓ so that's probably where most of it comes from. ⁓ but I there are other areas like I'm quite interested in graphic design, like contemporary graphic design in particular, like ⁓ there's a lot that I like about about that and there's there's elements of that that I try and bring into the work. ⁓ like I just think it's interesting to ⁓ I guess at the end of the day if you're presenting something in in in video, like you're you're there's a narrative that needs to be there and it's a communication with with the audience. ⁓ and I just always have found it useful to think about ⁓ visual communication like and and what how that discipline can feed into it and and because there's a whole study like you know that's that's that's an area that's ⁓ that's been studied, it's been researched, it's been put into practice and there's there's lots there. It's just a a fruitful area to look into because ⁓ I guess it it hits on a lot of the points that that I'm trying to ⁓ work with. ⁓ so so that one's a pretty pretty useful one. And I and through that then kind of interested in typography. ⁓ And then yeah, I think that would be kind of the the main ones. I don't necessarily have like the although the work that I do is is animation I guess in in some way. I don't have a huge knowledge of of animation or of that. a little bit of the abstract animators from the the twentieth century, but outside of that I don't really know much ⁓ about that field, for example.

Danielle Townsend: So let's have a look some of the clips. so let's talk about your process ⁓ and talk about how this came to ⁓

Pauric: Yeah, ⁓ so this project started ⁓ in January twenty twenty four. ⁓ it was ⁓ funded by the by the arts council so there was a nice ⁓ Yeah, so I had I had a ⁓ I had four months to work on a project which was which was really nice. and I think like there was lots of things before that that kind of had brought me to that point in terms of the the setup that I was using and the approaches that I was using. And this was the first time where I was kind of sitting down with all the technical aspects of it kind of understood ⁓ and developed and then I was just sitting down to kind of compose, I guess. So just ⁓ a bit more freedom.

Danielle Townsend: And like you so you you know, these kind of hyper digital environments that you're kind of creating ⁓ within this, like, you know, what is it you're trying to kind of achieve within that?

Pauric: Yeah, so I think at the at the core of what it is, it's really about music composition and using video as a way to extend the composition process. So using video to either expand upon it or remove information from it or change your understanding of what's been presented within the composition. ⁓ but it's really about Like I guess that's my background is music composition and r and writing music ⁓ mainly, so it's it's about doing that but about using different mediums to tell that story.

Danielle Townsend: I'm really interested in like, you know, the process versus the technology, right? And it's kinda like so, you know, you ⁓ you have a clear idea of what it is you're trying to achieve and then that you know, using like ⁓ using certain media, you say, kind of what you're your output ends up being and it's kinda nearly a like an unintended not an unintended consequence but un an un unintended output. but you know, ha like how do you kind of navigate that that it's you know, there's a there's a plan obviously, but the plan changes quite probably fluidly.

Pauric: Yeah. yeah, there's I guess there's a lot of things. Like before that point I probably spent like seven or eight years like playing around with these ideas and and when I was doing that I kinda realised that when you have ⁓ sound or music And that's presented alongside video, it it changes the experience for the for the user versus when that when that video is taken away. ⁓ and and like there's there's fields of study like the the McGurk effect, for example, that that kind of looks at that. ⁓ it's not a very ⁓ compositional ⁓ way of thinking about it. It it's it's just a a phenomenon that that's kind of part of ⁓ being human. ⁓ so That was kind of interesting and then it spent like quite a few years ⁓ Basically just playing around with that and being like, ⁓ that's kind of interesting, this is interesting. ⁓ what happens when this happens, or when you put these two things together, and how does that ⁓ change the experience of the music? Like, does it help the audience understand ⁓ a section of music better, or does it help them to feel a bit more confused, or you know, just trying to like play around with what it is that the audience would feel from that kind of experience? and alongside doing that. there's a lot of kind of technical parts that you kind of have to work on as well. So ⁓ you know programming this little section so that it will do things in that way. ⁓ And that can be very time consuming, the the programming part. So there might be an idea and then I might have to like segue or a a sidestep ⁓ for a week or two to develop this kind of component and then come back to it and then you're like, it it might work or it might not work at the end. You know, it might ⁓ get the desired effect ⁓ or not. So so there's a lot of that and there's a lot of like back and forth and it's a kind of it's a it's a pretty slow process. and I think

Danielle Townsend: Yeah.

Pauric: that that was what kind of a lot of that was figured out when I was starting this project. So a lot of that I'd I'd kind of spent a couple of years, I'd done a couple of shows at that point. Like I think there was ⁓ I pro ⁓ There was probably three different shows that I'd kind of done up to that point before. So so I had the understanding and the tech was kind of ⁓ produced up to a certain point. ⁓ so not having to think about that and to understand what works and what doesn't work ⁓ was really useful going into the project at that time.

Danielle Townsend: And like what what's the feedback from the the audience, you know, because ultimately they're the ones experiencing what you've put together.

Pauric: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, I got a lot of different ⁓ kind of reactions. ⁓ I mean it's it's a it's ⁓ it's it's a it's a music piece at the end of the day, so there's there's elements a lot of it that are quite intense and that's that's just what ⁓ what I'm kinda drawn to in in music. ⁓ so that's ⁓ that's always interesting 'cause it's it's ⁓ That's an experience that maybe some people might not have expected before they they go in to see the show. So ⁓ they're kind of almost confronted with that. So some people comment more on the music, some people comment on the on the video side of it. ⁓ I think I think there's a lot of people that that watch the show and they come from one world or another world. And they tend to focus a bit more on that ⁓ naturally, let's say. ⁓ but I would say that probably the most The most comments come from people who have a music background because they can kind of understand a little bit about what the video is trying to do. ⁓ because really the video is kind of framed around ⁓ music, like structures in music and and ⁓ arrangements within music.

Danielle Townsend: And like so, you know, your work is is obviously live and it's happening like in front of everyone. Like is what's the hardest kind of technical kind of or even creative problem that ⁓ you kind of have to, you know, think on your feet mid performance. Is there anything that you're like that has kind of made you stumble or made you, you know, kind of upset the kind of performance?

Pauric: Yeah, I mean there's yeah, there's always moments where you kind of forget to do something or there's there's something that you're me you you wanted to do at a certain point and then you forgot about it and then it's a bit too late and y you have to decide whether you go back and change that to be where you want to be or you just kind of let it go and kinda go with it. ⁓ yeah, there is there is one thing that I've kind of designed within the system that ⁓ helps me at least is that the video side of it I don't actually I can't see the video while I'm performing. So so what I've done is the the system's kind of programmed ⁓ the video system is programmed to respond to how I interact with the with the synthesizers ⁓ and then mo pretty much most of the gigs ⁓ the the video is behind me so I don't I don't see it at all. ⁓ so I'm not really using that as a way to like that's not informing how I perform. So I'm just able to perform on the on the the music side of things. And that I think that just helps because it it stops me thinking too much about about the video and if you're watching it and then you're trying to make changes or anything like that. I I don't feel like that would be would be nice ⁓ a nice position to be in when on stage in front of an audience.

Danielle Townsend: That way I suppose it it really is unique. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like completely unique. You're not aware it's kinda happening behind you. and like with structures, you kinda I think you've said that that's kinda it's a work in progress, and it's kinda it's never it's something that's never finished. like with with that performance, how do you know when it's at a point where, okay, I can show an audience now? Do you know what I mean? Like ⁓

Pauric: Yeah. ⁓ well af at the end of the four months I had a I had a perform of the the the the initial four month kind of phase of producing it. that was at the end of that I had a show. ⁓ so that was kind of okay, it has to be in somewhat of a finished state to to present it. and then each time I performed it after that, I'd usually do some changes to some elements that I was maybe not happy with. I'm like, Okay, I can, you know ⁓ fix up this part or fix up that part. ⁓ and then in addition to that just writing entire new sections for it as well. ⁓ and that's just really a case that ⁓ like I've been performing it now for Two years. So there's there's gonna be a point where there's a bit of an overlap in terms of audience, someone who's seen it before, and I just like I like to be able to keep it fresh ⁓ and keep it interesting in a way that people can come back and and see it again. ⁓ so just writing new sections for it. ⁓ and that's just really a case of like ⁓ exploring some of the ideas that I didn't have time to do in the past, or maybe a new idea has come up and yeah, composing that.

Danielle Townsend: I think we have another video. We're going to take another look at another piece of the performance. And then maybe you could talk to us a little bit about ⁓ equilibrium and that was a collaboration, isn't that right?

Pauric: Yeah, Equilibrium was a that was a collaboration with ⁓ a Dutch artist, Sebastian Smink, ⁓ who's a ⁓ good friend and ⁓ we'd been that actually started out as a different project ⁓ called Phase ⁓ and we never really were able to to finish that one but he ⁓ he came over to Ireland here to ⁓ develop that that phase piece and what we ended up with was a piece that was entirely different and ⁓ ended up being ⁓ equilibrium. So I kinda we had one ⁓ phase of developing it here in Ireland ⁓ Over a couple of days and then the final part of it was developed ⁓ in Amsterdam at the ⁓ Maca Institute. ⁓ so we were in there for which was a a really amazing space. ⁓ it's a huge a a lot of their their focus is on like ⁓ cinema. ⁓ so they they had this huge ⁓ I think it was like eight meter wide ⁓ projection screen in the space and They just were like, Yeah, go for it, use it for ⁓ a couple of days and and we could kinda do whatever we want. So we got some ⁓ lasers, we got a sound system in and we kinda played around with the ideas that we developed in in Ireland and yeah, the installation kinda grew out of that. And then we had a a small opening on the on the Sunday. So if you could come visit.

Danielle Townsend: that one I suppose ⁓ d on in ⁓ Amsterdam and you've done lots of work in Ireland. Is there a difference ⁓ to what produce based on, you know, ⁓ different countries, climates and things like that? Is that something that you consider in as part of your work?

Pauric: not not really. I I tend to ⁓ I tend to try and produce any of the work in a way that is suitable for for any space because it's kind of hard to know like when you have a situation in Ireland like I ⁓ Ireland's a smaller country it doesn't have as as many spaces as like you know these other cities like like Berlin or or Amsterdam or places like that. ⁓ it's very hard to to compete ⁓ with the scale that they have and and the the the access to space. so always when kind of ⁓ composing the work it's it's useful to kinda think about ⁓ it being possible to be presented in any ⁓ country. I think that's or at least that's the way I approach it because ⁓ a lot of the times the the places where it is presented is going to be overseas.

Danielle Townsend: coming back Ireland, then did the festival in Limerick Light Moves. ⁓ and that was ⁓ audio visual projection as well, it? ⁓

Pauric: Yeah, so that was ⁓ that was actually the first audiovisual performance that I that I ⁓ that I've done. ⁓ so that was it was there was that was the first kind of point after maybe like eight years or so of playing around with different ⁓ audiovisual composition approaches. ⁓

Danielle Townsend: ⁓ okay.

Pauric: I was kinda documenting the work and it was starting to come together to be somewhat of a show at that point. and ⁓ I got the opportunity to perform so that was kind of a deadline that forced me to kind of put everything together. ⁓ it was a much more ⁓ from a technical perspective it was a much more simplified version. It was just using ⁓ it was just using a modular synthesizer and ⁓ video. So it was it was a lot more streamlined and in many ways it was actually easier to to kind of work with it because it was it was so stripped down in terms of the the available tech. ⁓ so that was ⁓ yeah, and it it like that was that was a good kind of learning point for for composing. ⁓ and I think a ⁓ since then I kinda went another direction and started incorporating a lot of other ⁓ technologies, ⁓ particularly like sound technologies. ⁓ and then once I'd done that I realized that that first kind of show in in Limerick was was actually ⁓ a nice way of working because of the simplicity of the system. So it just forces you to work with what you've got rather than trying to rather than having too many choices. Yeah.

Danielle Townsend: That kind of reductive nature of the work and having more kinda having less to play with and having more parameters sometimes can produce better work rather than throwing, you know, the kitchen sink at something. Do you agree with that?

Pauric: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like and ⁓ I think it's the same in in any practice. Like it just has it brings a continuity to the work and it just helps everything to to work together a little bit more. ⁓ and I think from an audience perspective it's like they're their n their their brains is not like jumping around too much from too many different ideas. ⁓ and I've always felt that like for audiovisual performance there's there's a lot for the audience already. Like there's already sound and video kind of presented at the same time. There's a lot to kind of take in. ⁓ particularly within the context of like you're in a music performance environment. ⁓ so normally it's just music and then you've got this added element on top. So it's like ⁓ there's a lot to take in. So I think kinda simplifying it down ⁓ can can help things communicate a wee bit better.

Danielle Townsend: And just from my own experience I've obviously saw I saw you at bounce, the audience was completely still. I don't think people took a breath, so they were just captivated. But when it's placed in these kind of more entertainment style settings, you know, like kind of ⁓ club kind of venue type of places, is there like a hush of silence or you know, like what is the what is the feeling like in the room?

Pauric: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, it's kind of interesting 'cause they're all really different. ⁓ depends on like I think it's just ⁓ like there's there's ⁓ an expectation that people have before they go into a space. Like if it's if it's in a venue that's that's standing, like people are expecting to ⁓ move a little bit more ⁓ and maybe dance a little bit or ⁓ yeah, whereas if you go into ⁓ most of my shows are actually seated so the ⁓ like the bounce one for example that was that was seated. So I think that's ⁓ that's people have a certain expectation whenever to go into that space. you you have a different way of interacting with the work when it's like So ⁓ first of all, you're gonna stay for the entire length of it. ⁓ you're not going to get up and leave at any point. Whereas when you're in a venue where you're standing, you're more comfortable to leave and go to the bathroom or or leave to go somewhere else. So so it creates a total different audience from that perspective. and yeah, and it can definitely and I try to change the live show based on that. ⁓ so Yeah, just making it more suitable for for a seated audience or a standing audience and yeah, I think that's kind of ⁓ it's kind of useful in performance.

Danielle Townsend: Yeah, and it's i it's you know, it's that thing of like, you know, you'd you'd go to certain bands, you know, and you just hear people talking, you know, and you nearly can't hear the band and you just wonder like, you know, why people have come to a certain ⁓ event if it wasn't to experience the music, but like if it's a seated thing, I think you just you're gonna experience it in a completely different way, as you say, than if you're standing up, maybe people beside you chatting and it's a lot more ⁓ you know, energetic in the audience, I suppose you're gonna have a a completely different feeling and experience of the work itself and then come away thinking maybe totally differently about the little the moments that you've put in there and what you were hoping to achieve, ⁓ you know, based on those just those simple the physicality of of how you're experience ⁓ experiencing the work.

Pauric: Yeah, definitely. And like there's I think particularly for seated and this is kinda why I prefer seated in environments, is that like the work can be a little bit more delicate or you can go into a lot more subtle detail within a seated venue because people just seem to have a bit more ⁓ focus or they're a bit more engaged with it. ⁓ so you're able to go into those moments and and people will appreciate it. Whereas if you try to do that in like a festival setting or in in a in a space where people are standing and there is that movement of people, then that can sometimes not translate as well. Yeah.

Danielle Townsend: And is this is this kind of what you mean by psychoacoustics? Is that that term is that what that means about the experience?

Pauric: Yeah, well well psychoacoustics is the it's the the field of study that kinda covers ⁓ acoustics and the the physiology of the body. ⁓ and There's there's it's it's a couple of different areas kind of working together to understand how we experience sound. ⁓ so there's obviously the the the physiology of the ear, like how the ear ⁓ filters and shapes the sound as it enters into our ear canals, and how we localize sound, so how we we find out where it's coming from and different things like that. ⁓ but then also it's looking at ⁓ the kind of cognitive science aspect of it, like how like when The sound enters into ⁓ into our brains, like what what kind of happens at that point and how do we understand the experience? ⁓ and like and also the the acoustics of a room, so the the the that field kind of covers that as well. So it's quite a broad ⁓ field, but the a lot of the kind of interesting parts that I find is ⁓ that point whenever it kind of enters into the body and we're trying to understand it, and our brain is trying to make sense of. The information when the when when music is presented and this this works for all our senses really but when it's presented with other information like perhaps ⁓ visual information, well our brain actually merges the two together. So it doesn't s it doesn't treat them separately and think, okay, well here's a video and here's here's sound. It actually kind of merges them together in a a process called ⁓ cross modal integration. So it's i integrating the the multiple senses. So then you get a different experience again from that. ⁓ and of like a lot of these things are are kind of primal things that we had when we were let's say hunter gatherers that were useful, so like how we localize sound and how we merged ⁓ a visual movement of something with ⁓ a sound that we hear. So that was obviously ⁓ useful if if ⁓ if you're hunting and there was some danger around. So there's a lot of these things that kind of tie back to that. But it's it's it's kind of built into ⁓ our brains. And there's it's still an area that of course is very ⁓ there's a lot still to understand about it. but it's certainly quite interesting in terms of what we know

Danielle Townsend: And while you might say there's gaps in your your knowledge of graphic design and I think as you said, graphic design is a great base because ⁓ even if you went from graphic design into motion, a good motion designer is a great graphic designer. You know, they ha ⁓ there there's there's knowing the certain kinda you know, the first principles ⁓ really can apply to any design. ⁓ and the visuals that you produce are stunning within their own right, without even the sound and you know, I I f I find that that's what in instinctively kinda drew me to your work 'cause I just thought, Wow, these visuals are stunning but also there there's this, you know, sensoral thing happening where I'm experiencing this music too. ⁓ and it's it's almost like sensory overload, you know, full immersion, sensory overload. and forget where you are for a moment, you know, while you're just kinda just really deep in in the experience, which is something that, you know, doesn't happen through a lot of media now. You know, we're very distractable as people, but it really there's this immersion to your work. so I can see it it's you know, it's ⁓ d different audience members might kinda talk about it from the the sound point of view, from the the the music point of view, the the visual. But it is such an immersive immersive thing. it's

Pauric: Yeah.

Danielle Townsend: it's it's almost hard to h to con conceive how actually appears on s o on It's just it's you know it's for me it's it's ⁓ such a treat to see. ⁓ it's yeah, no it's it's it's wonderful. And I imagine now probably doing making the work and the and and that is, you know, it's it's quite detailed but

Pauric: Good. See you.

Danielle Townsend: In my head, if I was think to think of you working, I think you're working in a kind of a flow state. ⁓ You know, you're just deeply involved. would that be ⁓ anyway anyway true? Do you get that kind of flow state? ⁓

Pauric: Yeah, like sometimes, yeah. ⁓ there's a lot of times when it's like it's really, really slow process. That's that's the only thing and I think that's what kinda keeps a lot of people away from it, or at least that's what I think does anyway. ⁓ so it's it's like he you know, you could be trying to do a certain idea or or work on a certain aspect of it and it might end up Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, you could end up like two or three days or or spending quite a while like programming something, which isn't necessarily ⁓ or at least I don't fully consider it a a flow state. ⁓ 'cause you're you're kinda removed from both the the sonic element and the the visual element. ⁓ so it's ⁓ it can be tricky. But then once you what I try and do is I try and build it in a way that it's performative so that I can ⁓ pr do all the the kind of technical side and program it up and then ⁓ whenever it's ready to go then I can kinda play with it and program or perform on it so that ⁓ you can extract different things during the performance. So I guess that's maybe a little bit more of a of a flow state. Yeah.

Danielle Townsend: And because this podcast is called Rough Drafts, the last question I tend to ask is about something that's unresolved or finished or unfinished. So is there anything that you have maybe you know in your mind that you haven't explored yet, you want to kind of dig deeper into, you want to spend a bit of time with, or anything that you really want to challenge yourself with ⁓ in the next in the next while?

Pauric: Yeah, ⁓ from yeah, th there's there is a couple of projects that I'm working on. At the moment there's an installation that I'm working on that's actually ⁓ quite a bit different than than the work that I do for the performance. So that's kind of taken a a completely different approach to things ⁓ and that's working with with ⁓ spatialization a bit more so so ⁓ working with with the space of an environment which is kind of a it's a little bit difficult to do it in performance because ⁓ mainly because when when when putting a performance together you want to make it suitable for multiple venues so you kinda have to or yeah it's strip it back down to something that's easy to ⁓ reproduce in in another venue or in another in another space. So having something that's complicated and spatial and and ⁓ works within within an environment can be ⁓ tricky. ⁓ so so trying to work with that for ⁓ insulation at the moment so that I can kind of Yeah, just explore some of the ideas that I'm not really able to do within ⁓ performance. So that's that's probably one of them. and I think the other one then is incorporating ⁓ device. like incorporating voice within the work. ⁓ so like ⁓ it's at the moment obviously it's ⁓ my show is electronic, there's no voice ⁓ part of it. ⁓ and there's a couple of kind of technical things that make it tricky to work with voice. ⁓ so just trying to figure out what ⁓ how to kind of overcome those obstacles and then once once I've kind of overcome those obstacles ⁓ how to compose best with that.

Danielle Townsend: Okay, interesting. And would this be live voice or recorded or ⁓ Yeah.

Pauric: I would I would like to be I would like it to be live voice, yeah. I mean this is ⁓ it that's the voice is not something I've started working on yet, but but I think it would be nice that's something that's been on my mind for a while. ⁓ and I think that it would be yeah, I think it would bring another another perspective to the work ⁓ and another possibility for for storytelling, I guess, which is kind of what it all kind of boils down to.

Danielle Townsend: Yeah. stay tuned and check out your website and socials and all that kind of stuff. great. Well listen, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much. ⁓ we're gonna leave it there unless there's any other anything anything else you'd like to to mention.

Pauric: No, I think that's great. Thanks very much for ⁓ for inviting me on. It's been really great. Thanks, Danielle.

Danielle Townsend: ⁓ it's been pleasure. Thank you so much, Park.