Project Self: back to the Ramayana Odyssey Podcast. ⁓ this part two of our very special conversation with Puja Swami Chidandanda Puriji of Advaita Ashram Kozhikode Kerala. in the first part of this conversation, Suamiji gave us a beautiful and deeply clarifying foundation for understanding the Ramaina. He took time to so thoroughly explain ⁓ how the revealed the vision of Dharma ⁓ and how Ramaina shows how dharma is to be lived out through an actual human life. He also helped us understand that the Ramayana is not primarily a text of Vedanta, but rather a text of Dharma, a sacred ittihasa that teaches humanity how dharma is to be lived amongst the complexities of life. From there, Swamiji then explained how Rama is both Bhagavan and the embodiment of Dharma. And how especially in Bhivalmiki Ramana specifically, Rama is presented before humanity as the perfect role model, through which ⁓ we learn what Dharma looks like in actual action rather than theory. And finally, Swamiji gave us such a profound understanding of Maharginarada. Not as a superficial figure that's very distant to us, as he is sometimes misunderstood as today. But rather he framed him as one of the greatest teachers in our tradition, a Deva Rishi, a master of wisdom, tapas, and speech, alongside the ideal teacher for Mahadchi Valmiki's question. So, with this beautiful foundation laid by Swamiji. Let's continue to the next question.

Daksha Nair: Swamiji, Ramayana begins with Maharishi Valmiki's question to Maharishi Narada about the ideal human being. I found it very interesting Narada doesn't answer ⁓ Valmiki's question with an abstract sort of definition on what the ideal human being is. Rather, he takes the time to unfold the life of Rama. So what does that show us about the right way to understand Dharma? Not just like as an idea, but as something that you can live in your day-to-day life.

Swami Chidananda Puri: See, a reply to the question of Malmiki, Narada says, O Maharshe, the qualities you asked for are ⁓ not in the society. Only a few are having that quality and I will tell you there is one great man, ⁓ the of Dasaratha called Srirama and this is the life. of Sri Rama as far as I know. See the first Sarga of Valmiki Ramayana contains only 100 verses, only 100 shlokas. So within that 100 shlokas the life of Sri Rama is inertial presented before Valmiki. Now it is up to Valmiki to contemplate on that. to ruminate on what has been heard. So, Valmiki was that much influenced, that much influenced by the sayings of Narada. And we can see in the Valmiki Ramayana, he was always walking, how ruminating what has been heard from Narada, day and night, while walking, sitting, doing any work, always. That thought was there like a flow. And now we can see Valmiki along with his disciple Bharadwaja walking through the forest. So now Valmiki had only one thing in mind, nothing else. That is what he has heard from sage Narada. That is the life of Sri Ram. Different aspects of that. Now they saw a ⁓ pond ⁓ or in that river there was a collection of water and it was that much pure, crystal clear and sage asked Bharadwaja, ⁓ please you go and get my dress, I will have a bath in this. So Bharadwaja went to the hermitage. It was then Vaheguru saw a Vyatha with the arrows, he killed one bird. So there were two birds, a couple flying and playing with all joy. So one was killed down with the help of arrow by the Vyatha. Then the other bird was crying, crying, crying. So seeing this, immediately the of Valmiki, it got attuned with the sorrow of that bird. So now what happened you see, immediately without his even knowledge, spontaneously as it is, a shloka came out of Valmiki. And that is the most famous shloka and the first shloka, Vanishada. what happened? Now Valmiki's mind was clinging to two things. One, he has heard from Shri Jidharatha and the second, how the sloka came in work. I didn't write any sloka before. Of course, where the mantras were there, but slokas were not there. So this is the first sloka. How sloka came? So these two thoughts were there. So thinking again and again and again on these two aspects of how the shloka came, one, to the Srirama's life as told by Sai Chinnagar. So Valmiki day and night, day and night he was thinking, thinking, thinking. Then Brahmaji appeared before and he instructed or rather insisted you rock you a third shloka this is the first shloka and this is a great shloka and in that style you must write the life of Rama in detail so only a few verses are there in the first sarga which were taught by sage Narada So taking those slokas, after detailed thinking, Valmiki found out what Shri Yama's life is. what it was. and you wrote the whole of Brahma Yana. So what we have to learn from this is you cannot say this is to be done, this is to be done, is Dharma. No. The values which we value as Dharma, as our thoughts. Now it is up to you to contemplate on that, ⁓ again and again. ⁓ and connect with the practical life. Practical life means given situations. Situations means that changes with the time and time, you see. The situation a hundred years back is not that of today. And the circumstance of today will not be after a hundred years. So it will go on changing. And along with that, in one place, given place, it will be different from another place. So according to time and time, this change. So all this have to be taken into account and you have to write, you have to make, you have to speak that we are seeing.

Daksha Nair: am always so extremely baffled about how these ancient texts from our traditions very much align with modern science in this way because the way Narada explained it is how any psychologist I say would try to teach somebody this. So I always find myself so amazed how this was recognized so long ago and our modern society is just realizing all of this. So thank you so much, Swamiji, for explaining that. And even today, ⁓ talking about judgments again, Swamiji, many people judge Rama based off of one or two difficult episodes in his life, especially in the moments where his dharma seemed to conflict.

Swami Chidananda Puri: Thank

Daksha Nair: such as like his dharma of a husband and the dharma that he has as a king. So how should a sincere seeker of knowledge from the Ramayana understand these moments? And how should we understand the statement that drama is the embodiment of dharma without becoming judgmental? ⁓ First of all, have to understand that Valmiki Ramayana ⁓ is a ⁓ sermon of Dharma, nothing else.

Swami Chidananda Puri: Yeah. See, first of all, we have to understand that Valmiki Ramayana is a sermon of Dharma, nothing else. It is not taking Vedanta, it is not taking yoga, is not taking Sankhya, nothing. It is only a teaching of or explanation of a sermon of Dharma. And the role model of Dharma is Of course, so many others are there. Sita is there, Naxmana is there, Bharata is there, Kshatriya is there, Kausarya is there, Sumitra is there, so many, so many are there. But the central point is Rama's Dharma. Rama's Dharma. There, Rama is depicted as the very embodiment of Dharma as we have seen earlier. Ramo Vikraha Van Dharma. Ramo, that's a famous saying in the Valmiki Ramayana. You know who said this in the first instance? That is very interesting. In the Valmiki Ramayana, Marija says for the first time, Ramo Vikraha Van Dharma. It is first said by Marija. And what is the importance in that? See, if we love somebody if we admire somebody ⁓ if we worship somebody, we ⁓ give sorts of greatness. We will attribute ⁓ all greatness him or to him. He is a great man. He is such and such great and all. that greatness he may have, may not have. But we will attribute all greatness upon But psychologically you think, if one is a pride of another, He will not attribute any greatness to that whom he is fearing in his absence. Of course, in his presence, he will platter, ⁓ you are great, you are great, like that. But in his absence, he will not say anything great about Now, Maricha was that much. ⁓ I'm of them because in his earlier life, many, many years back. With the arrow of Rama, he was thrown to hundreds of kilometers away. And after that, he went into a forest, a life of exile he was ⁓ following without indulging in any social activities. And he was staying in the forest. That much fear of Rama was there. It was then Ravana came to Madhya for helping him to abduct was in that occasion, for the first time in the Vajnavarnayana, the saying, Ramo Vigrahavan Dharma was uttered. Marija said, Ramo Vigrahavan Dharma Sadhus Satya Parakramaha Raja Sarvasya Lokasya Deva Nami Vidivasavaha You know here Ravana, who Rama is? is the very embodiment of Dharma. So don't go to him and play something mischievous. It will be dangerous for him. Just as Devendra is the king of all devas, Rama is the king of the whole world. So don't try to touch his wife. This was the teaching. what I'm saying is, such a man as Marija who was always fearing Rama, he uttered this. That was the greatness of Rama. ⁓ and who is hearing, us praise. That means we have to understand what Dharma is from the life of Rama. We must not have any preconceived notions, this is Dharma, that is not Dharma. No, you observe the life of Rama and take lessons from that. How it is possible? See, speaking Dharma is very easy affair. Speaking about Dharma, That is very easy affair. You can do that. But observing a practical life in our life, it is not that much easy. Through so much stringent situations. difficult task, so many problems, we will have to go and face all those dualities. then only we will be able to observe Dharma. So in that there are two aspects. Those aspects are Mukhya Dharma and Gowna Dharma. Let me repeat once more Mukhya Dharma and Gowna Dharma. Mukhya Dharma is that Dharma which you have to observe in a given situation. Gowna Dharma is subsidiary to that. When Mukhya Dharma and Kaunad Dharma are not contradicting, there is no problem at all. You can observe both. But when Mukhya Dharma is contradicting with Gowna Dharma or Gowna Dharma is contradicting with Mukhya Dharma, then what we have to do? We have to renounce, get rid of Gowna Dharma and observe Mukhya So in getting rid of this Gowna Dharma, what much pain is there? We must be ready to suffer that. You must be ready to suffer that pain. Pain for what? Pain for getting rid of Gowna dharma. For example, you take an example. the case of a teacher, a school teacher. So she is a very ⁓ model, very good teacher who is considering all the students as one without any differentiation. ⁓ It is. It is. Now just imagine there were 40 students in her class last year. This year also there are 40 students but her daughter or her son joined that class. Now if she seeing 1 plus 39 equals 40. Last year it was 40. This year 1 plus 39 equals 40. That means she is giving importance to her child. If that is the case, I will say teacher is lost, teacher is died. There is no more teaching. Because in the classroom, in the school, the Dharma of mother, the individuality of mother is Gauha. Whereas that of teacher is Mukhi. So she felt in that. He is giving special consideration to her child. It won't happen. It must not happen. Now imagine go back to home and the child come, oh mother, no, no, no, no, I am your teacher. No. In the home, she is mother. The individuality of mother is muktadhar. Teacher is gauna. So in practical life, we must be able to divide these. If there is no contradiction, we can observe both. If they are contradicting, you have to observe mukhiya. Whatever pain is there, you have to suffer. If you understand this much, you can see the life of Rama and realize it was the very, very embodiment of dharma. Take whatever example or whatever situation in Rama's life. One example I will tell you. see the occasion to discard. feed. So, Rama knew more than anybody else, he was pure. He was purity manifested, purity embodied. Rama knew that. Which Rama? Rama, the husband. Which Rama? Rama, the person, the human being. But there was another individuality and that is that of the king. We are having these eyes. These are our eyes. Through these eyes we are seeing the world. You are seeing me, I am seeing you. But the eyes of a king is not these eyes. It is Raja Naha Chara Chakshushaha. Raja Naha Chara Chakshushaha is a great saying of Chanakya. So Raja, the eye of Raja is those who are doing spy work. Chara Chakshushaha. That is the eye of Raja. So being a Raja, He was collecting the reports by workers and their report. Everywhere in our country people are murmuring about the integrity of Rama, how Rama can be a king like that because they were respecting the purity of Sita. If somebody else from some other countries criticizes, there is no problem. You need not give any heed But inside the country, a single word must not come against the king. That was the Dharma Shastra of those years. So, ⁓ was only two options for Rama. One, take the personality of a husband and live with Sita. Option two, accept the personality of a king. Then there is only one way, renounce. So, which is Mookia? Which is Gautam? This is the point of stringent rest. For that we have to rely on the Shastras. you should renounce one for the sake of community. You must get rid of one for the sake of the nation. So there was no other way for Rama. If somebody like Bharata or Kshatra Prana or Lakshmana was ready to take the of a king, Rama would get of the position of the king and he will leave happily with Sita. But that was not the case there. Then what will happen to the nation? See, so Rama without any doubt decided to renounce Sita. Which Rama? Rama the king. Now you see Rama the husband. Rama the husband was crying, crying. Even after being the emperor of a great nation or a country, he was sleeping on the ground just like a mandicate. and like a Rishi Hilly. He was only those times. He could have married again. No. ⁓ He remained. as he was. When occasions came to perform Yajna, He made the idol of and sitting near that he performed. And we can see in the Ramayana, every now and then, he was crying, crying, crying. That is the husband. But the king, there was no any way were he. He was adamant like this, so many occasions are in the Ramayana where you will see the differentiation of the Mukhya Dharma and Gauna Dharma. So to understand Ramavasti, ⁓ embodiment of Dharma, you have to realize these two aspects, okay, Dharma and Gaurana Dharma. And you must keep in mind this will change with time. Because we today, that is in this ⁓ age, and practices in a society of this age is entirely different from the customs and practices of another age. That you have to keep. Yeah.

Daksha Nair: Swamiji, your really a lot for me as well, personally. ⁓ I feel like the Uttarakhand is so difficult for people to read because people are just looking at Rama as like a bad husband in that sense, but it's so important to realize that Dharma is so abstract and can change with the time and such, like you beautifully explained Swamiji, so thank you for that. And finally Swamiji, one more question. If a listener were to remember one thing from our conversation today, what would you want them to carry in their heart as they approach the Ramayana?

Swami Chidananda Puri: The main message of the Amaya Nahis of the Zoodharma. our life in this world, wherever we are living, whatever be the field we are working in. to have success in life. to reach our goal in this life. We have to observe Dharma. And observing dharma is not an easy affair. We must get ourselves ready for any sort of suffering. But we must be that much adamant in observing. that message we will get from the avayana. Of course so many, see from different corners so many attractions will call you come here, come here, come here, deviating the path of Dharma. is our life and it was always like that. Now ⁓ ⁓ era We can see it is so many attractions from different corners are calling you. So we must have a role model within us and a great ideal, highest ideal to which we are attached and that ideal must be that of Dharma. And what is Dharma? Many a times people will misunderstand Dharma to be a religion. There is no connection, no relation between Dharma and religion. Dharma is that which is binding everything together. from a subatomic particle to the grossest universe. is held together by a system or a rule. ⁓ That is Dharma. Anena tharya te sarvabha. If we understand in that way, we will realize it is the string that is making the very sustenance of the universe. So science and technology must be based on Dharma. Religion must be based on Dharma. Our economics, our politics must be based on Dharma. Religion must be based on Dharma. If religion is not based on Dharma, it will distract the very fabric of our society. If technology is not based on Dharma, it will distract the humanity. That we are seeing, So Dharma is the very base of our life. And that is explained in the Amayana. with the help of many great personalities. ⁓

Daksha Nair: Swamiji, that was such ⁓ a good take message in terms of dharma and thank you so much. Pranams once again. ⁓ Your insights have truly valuable and this conversation for me personally has been so so special because ⁓ I have grown with the Ramayana at my side and it's always been so important. ⁓

Swami Chidananda Puri: Very good, very good. I have to hear from student like you, especially who is living in this. ⁓

Daksha Nair: I from a like you, especially who is living in this. ⁓ Yeah, so glad and I feel so so grateful that our listeners able to... ⁓ Thank you, Swamiji. ⁓ And I'm so grateful that our listeners are able get this wisdom you as well. ⁓ So to our listeners, thank you so much for being with us in episode.

Swami Chidananda Puri: Keep it up, keep it up, keep it up.

Daksha Nair: We hope this conversation helps you approach the Ramayana not just as a beautiful story from the past, but rather as a living source of guidance, self-understanding, and inner growth. So if you did find this episode meaningful, please do share your thoughts with us in the comments, and please share this episode to others that might benefit from it. And you can follow the Ramayana Odyssey podcast on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts. And if this journey is meaningful to you, Please help us take the message of the Ramayana to more seekers. And until next time, let's keep listening deeply, reflecting sincerely, and keep walking this sacred path together. Jai Sridhar.