Daksha Nair: Namaste everyone and welcome back to the Ramayana Odyssey podcast. In this podcast, we journey through the Ramayana one story at a time. We listen to the story and then we pause to reflect on its deeper meanings. And from time to time, we also have the blessing of learning from revered teachers who help us see this great scripture through a deeper lens. And today's episode is truly very special for me. It is truly a blessing and a privilege to have the opportunity to speak with Poojya Swami Chidananda Puri Ji of Advaita Ashram of Kozhikode Kerala, India. Swami Ji is one of the most respected teachers of our time, for offering authentic Vedantic teachings, fully based on Pramana, the means of knowledge. And what find so personally beautiful in Swami Ji's teachings is the clarity ⁓ and the and the way that deep truths are unfolded in a manner that's both rigorous and deeply transformative in nature. For us in the Ramayana Odyssey Project, Swamiji's lectures on the Ramayana have been one of the key sources of inspiration for us. We've often returned to his insights while thinking through the spirit, subtlety, and vision of the scripture. So for me personally, This conversation is very, very special because today I have the blessing of speaking with Swamiji about the scripture that is personally most dearest to me, the Ramayana, and about Rama who is so deeply loved and dear to my heart. Namaste Swamiji. Hari Om. Thank you so much for blessing us with your time and guidance today. ⁓ ⁓ our journey so far, we've covered the first few stories of the Ramayana. Swami Chidananda Puri: Namaste. Namaste. Namaste. Daksha Nair: So we went over the transformation of Ratnakara into Maharaj Valmiki ji and then Valmiki's question to Narada ji about the ideal human being and the profound Ma Nishada moment where poetry itself is born. So as we reflected on these stories, many deeper questions came up for us about the Ramayana, Vedanta, Dharma and simply the subtle way these scriptures unfold. ⁓ So with your permission, I'd love to play some of questions before you. And to start off, Swamiji, it's often said that the Vedas reveal the vision of Dharma and that the Ramayana shows us that Dharma lived out through real human life. So could you help us understand this connection a bit more clearly? Swami Chidananda Puri: Ramayana basically a Ithihasa Ithihasa And first of all we have to understand what an itihasa is. So basically, it has us and put on us. Both are text scriptures having second authority, that is Akshar Vedas, and they are for explaining the concept of Veda to the common people. As well said in the Mahabharata itself, Itihasa Puranabhyam Vedam Samupabhram Hayet, you have to explain Veda through Itihasas and Puranas. So what is the difference between the Itihasa and Purana? In Purana, so many stories are taken and with the use of such stories, Vedabhyasa is explaining the message of Veda, different messages of Veda. Whereas in Itihasas, of course in Itihasas so many stories are there, but Basically, itihasas are not stories. They are many, many parts taken from history. That is, history spread in those times. So that is the first difference between purana and itihasa. Puranas are mainly stories for the sake of explaining the teachings of Veda. Whereas itihasas, they are live stories. that the history, lives of great people. to explain Vedas. So when we take Ramayana as an idhyasa, it is to explain to the common people what Dharma is. It is an explanation of For explaining or discussing different aspects of Dharma, many lies. Life of Rama life of Sita, life of Lakshmana, life of Ravana. So many personalities or individualities were taken and through that Dharma is explained. So you cannot say it is a text of Vedanta. Ramayana is not a text of Vedanta because in the Valmiki Ramayana no Vedanta is discussed at all. There is no teachings of Vedanta in Valmiki Ramayana. It is a text of Dharma. But in later days, so many Ramayanas came. That means, seeing the greatness of the Dehasa Ramayana, Bhagavan Vedavyasa in almost all the Puranas repeated the Ramayana in his own words. As a part of that, there is a... part which is called Adhyatma Ramayana and that is included in the Uttarakhanda Brahmandapurana. So that is actually a text of Dharma at the same time a text of Vedas. is an explanation of Vedanta also. So in Adhyatma Ramayana we can see it has a tiered range of Vedanta. At the same time, explanation of Dharma also. Whereas, Itihasa Ramayana, it is just explaining what Dharma is. Now, one more explanation is required. See, the Veda teaches to the world, Dharmamchara, Satyamvada, Swadhyayanma, Pramada, the basic teachings of Dharma. Now, the meaning of Dharmamchara is you have to follow in your life what is Dharma. You follow Dharma. That is the teaching of meaning of Dharmapchara. So speaking or teaching that is an easy affair. can speak, you can explain hours and hours, but in practical life it is not that much easy. Observing Dharma is not that much easy in practical life because we are in life so many ⁓ ⁓ which we are going through. ⁓ In each and every situation we have to find out what our Dharma is. And even if we find out what my Dharma is, it is not easy to follow that. So what Valmiki in his Ramayanam does is he explains this with the help of the life story of Bhagavad Shri Rama who always followed Dharma. Whichever be the situation, in all circumstances faced boldly and always followed Dharma. And on the other side, there are the lives of many others like Ravana who couldn't do that and failed. So the two aspects of following Dharma is well explained. One seeker or one student who go through the mayana can clearly understand how to in a given situation. What will happen if I am not observing karma? Like that. Daksha Nair: What will happen if I am not observing? Like that. Swamiji, your explanation was absolutely beautiful ⁓ and this is one of my favorite parts of our ⁓ modern psychology, ⁓ in my classes, we've learned a lot how you need example to best learn something ⁓ and I think you explained that perfectly with Rama, with Ramayana the connection to Dharma. So thank you so much, Swamiji. Swami Chidananda Puri: Yeah. Daksha Nair: My next question is, in our tradition, Rama is loved as Bhagavan, but he's also presented as the ideal human being. So how should we begin to understand this combination? So is Rama only a historical divine figure, or does he represent something deeper for the seeker themselves? Swami Chidananda Puri: Yeah. Daksha Nair: ⁓ Swami Chidananda Puri: See, who are ⁓ very embodiment of high values. like sathya, dharma and all. We respect them as the very, very personification or very embodiment of Ishwara. In that sense, Rama was the embodiment of dharma. This I am saying from the standpoint of Valmiki Rama. In the Valmiki Rama, you are seeing a life which is the very manifestation or the embodiment of Dharma itself. That's why it is said in the Valmiki Ramayana, Ramo Vigrahavan Dharma. Ramo Vigrahavan Dharma. That means Rama is the embodiment of Dharma. What Dharma is you have to learn from the life of Rama. Now coming to Adhyatma Ramayana. In Adhyatma Ramayana, the life of Rama is portrayed as an incarnation of Bhagawan. Of course, in the Valmiki Ramayana also, in three or four occasions, is ⁓ undoubtedly explained that Bhagawan incarnated as the Rama for the protection of Dharma. But Valmiki didn't elaborate that divine aspect of Rama. Of course, in the four or five occasions, Valmiki clearly said Rama, Sri Rama is the incarnation of Bhagavan Mahavishnu. Without any doubt, he said that. But at the same time, Valmiki wrought Ramayana in such a way as Rama, Srirama will be a role model for the human society. We must have an icon, we must have a role model. So as a role model Ramayana is presented before us by Valmiki and therefore the human aspect is more explained there. Whereas in the Adhyatma Ramayana along with that the divine aspect that is Sri Rama is the incarnation of Mahavishnu. That is That is the thread of Adhyatma Ramayana. So to understand these two, there is no contradiction at all. In our philosophy, is not somebody who is sitting in heaven away from you and controlling the whole world. No. Ishwara is within you. Ishwara is without you. Ishwara is among you. Ishwara is in the society. See. In the Bhagavad Gita it is said, yad yad mibhūdhi madhsatam śrīmadhūrjita me vavā tatta devāvagacchattu māma tejomśa saṅkāpam That means, wherever you are seeing mibhūdhi madh, that is some manifestation having greatness, having greatness, urujita, that much energetic. you understand to be my ⁓ manifestation. That is that Ishwara ⁓ more effectively manifested in those beings. You understand that. So Ishwara is not somebody who is sitting in heaven and commanding. ⁓ that is not our concept. So in Rama we are seeing the very by the embodiment of Dharma and for protecting Dharma he came. Therefore we are worshipping Rama as Isvara. That is from our side and from the higher side, Bhagawan, to protect or to bring back equilibrium much needed for the sustenance of the universe. What type of equilibrium? That between Dharma. Devi and Asuri is a part. See there are two types of forces in each and every individual, in each and every society, in every nation and the world at large. There are two types of see one ⁓ is sure Devi the other is Asuri. So there is ⁓ a balance between these two. When that equilibrium is lost, the very sustenance of the world will be in danger. So whenever that happens, there will be mechanism. to regain that and that mechanism or that power which is coming to regain that equilibrium is avadharana. That is avadharana. So Bhagawan Sri Rama came to regain that. You got that idea? So we are worshipping Rama as Ishwara. From another point, we are worshipping Rama as the very embodiment of Dharma. In two ways it is. Daksha Nair: ⁓ I think that was an absolutely incredible explanation again, Swamiji. I very much always thought that seeing Rama as a human helps initially bring people closer to Ishvara as a whole because it is easier to relate to a human and then once they further their studies they can begin to look at Rama as an avatar Bhagavan as well. So I really really enjoyed that explanation. ⁓ Swami Chidananda Puri: Yeah, yeah Daksha Nair: So, Swamiji, the Ramayana begins with Maharishi Valmiki's question to Maharishi Narada about the ideal human being. So, clearly, Valmiki sees in Narada the ideal teacher for such a complex question, but in the modern world, many people have a very superficial understanding of Narada and they often view him as a more negative character. So, could you help us understand the true role and greatness of Maharishi Narada in our tradition? Swami Chidananda Puri: Ahem, see? The greatness of Maharada We cannot explain in words because he transcends the capacity of our speech. For example, in the Veda we can see Narada. In the Veda itself we can see Narada. For example, in Chandugya Upanishad you can see Narada as a student of Sanat Kumara who is ⁓ approaching the great sage Sarat Kumara in search of the ultimate knowledge or ultimate wisdom. So after getting instruction from Sarat Kumara, Narada became that much enlightened that we can see in the Chandu Gokaleshwara. Then in the name of Narada, There is one Upanishad itself. In the name of Narada, there is one Upanishad. That Upanishad is Narada Pariparajaka Upanishad. Narada Pariparajaka Upanishad. That is in the name of Narada. See, Upanishad is in the name of one page. So see that greatness. And go to Idihasas and Puranas. We have two Idihasas and eighteen Mahaputas. All these are to explain Vedas or are explaining Vedas. In all these we can see only one person. Of course many are in many but all in all Puranas and the Dihasas there is only one person and that is the great Devarshi. and he was a great ⁓ teacher of music and in his name there is Sangeetha Shastra in the name of Narada. Sangeetha Shastra and you can see in the Puranas like Bhagavata Narada was the teacher and Yamayana also Valmiki asked Narada, who is a role model for this society in terms of Karma? Why? Narada was Narada. Who is Narada? Naram daddhadi dhi Narada. Naram daddhadi dhi Narada. The meaning is, Naram, there are different meanings for ⁓ One is the humanity, the other is ultimate knowledge. So, Narambhadadi, one who is giving that ultimate knowledge to the society is called Narada. See, he was the greatest teacher of the humanity. And when we come to Puranas, there is one Purana in the name of Narada. That is Narada Mahapuranam or Brhad Naradiyya Mahapuranam. Both are one. So, one Purana is dedicated in the name of Narada. And all Puranas, all Idhihasas contain the teachings of Narada. And Narada without any restriction, you could go everywhere. And therefore Bhagavan in the Gita says, Devarashree namata Narada. I am Nairada among the devarshis. That is the greatest devarshi is Nairada. So such a great sage. Nairada, very personification of wisdom and knowledge, that was he. And it was because of that, even after knowing many sages, Valmiki didn't ask this question to them. But when he met Nairada, he asked this question. And that is the beginning point of Valmiki Ramayana. and it is a tapasvadhyaya niradham. That is the first epithet given to Narada. Tapasvadhyaya niragam. Then Vagvidambaram. Tapasvadhyaya niragam means one who is well established in tapas and svadhyaya. Swadhyaya is that is. So in tapas and svadhyaya he was well established. Then the second is vāgvidāṁ varam, the greatest among the knowers of vāga speech. That means the verbal meaning and the indicated meaning, how to use words correctly. So he was the greatest proponent of śabdaśāstra, Narada. That was the greatness of our friends to learn. ⁓ we must have the knowledge from the souls. If you are studying physics, you must not get that knowledge from newspapers. You must get from the textbooks of physics and from scientists, physicists. That is the source. All the knowledge must come from the source. Daksha Nair: thank you so much, Swamiji, for explaining that. ⁓ Swami Chidananda Puri: Thank Daksha Nair: this conversation for me personally has been so special because ⁓ I have grown up with the Ramayana at my side and it's always been important. ⁓ Swami Chidananda Puri: Very good, very good. I have to hear from like you, especially who is living in this. Keep it up, keep it up, keep it up. Daksha Nair: Swamiji. And so grateful that our listeners are able to get this wisdom you as well. ⁓ So to our listeners, thank you so for being with us in this episode. We hope this conversation helps you approach the Ramayana not just as a beautiful story from the past, but rather as a living source of guidance, self-understanding, and inner growth. if you did find this episode meaningful, please do share your thoughts with us in the comments, ⁓ please share this episode to others that might benefit from it. 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