Matt: are we doing? This is a bit of a riff kind of episode, but today we're going to be talking about Metacritic. ⁓ is it? What? ⁓ did it come from? Where did it go? Where did it come from? Cartinide Joe. ⁓ ⁓ if you don't know what Metacritic is, it is a website where you can input ⁓ own scores into various ⁓ of about various video games. ⁓ it also aggregates ⁓ various different ⁓ magazines and web mags. Is that a thing? Web mags? Sure. Yeah. Who also review video games. And one of the cool things that it does is actually takes various different ways of reviewing and scoring games and kind of turns them into a sort of percentage style thing. Luke: Yeah, I'll go with it. Tasha: Sure, why not. Luke: It's like a game ranking. Matt: Yeah, like game ranking. And it has an awful lot of influence on the video game industry. Tash, Luke, what are your takes on Metacritic? Tasha: Metacritic. So in the past we knew that we had additional use for the service and demo for the work. And we used that today for the work. That went really well. Luke: So in the past, we've used Metacritic as initial reviews of scores on demos and things like that. And then we use that to gauge where we need to make improvements. That works really well. ⁓ The trouble is sometimes it goes off in a tangent too far and you lose the sort of overall direction you were already heading in, or you send it off too soon and the review is judging something that was Tasha: or you send it off too soon and the reviews judging something and everyone views it back and is saying it was a filler. So yet now you're putting it on the SSL website and it's going to make you the first person to vote that killed the person from online over it. I believe it's fair to hope that something that we have to vote for, if I can have Facebook that votes for it, I'm going to vote for Luke: everyone knew that that particular thing wasn't good enough. But yet now you've got all the eyes of Sauer on looking at it. It's going to make it even worse because those things that you should have been spending your time on are overlooked. That's the negative side of things. The positive side of things is that the aggregation, the fact that it aggregates all that data from all the different angles and gives you a score around it all. The other negative, I know there's two negatives, one positive, is that end users Tasha: you So you can get rid that and just do that. Just do that five minutes and you're better. So you really, do really well. And that's that. And someday you'll always get a good day. And that's how I know that. So what I've definitely outwitted is some really good examples of that. The porpoise is one, but I'm going to what I'm talking about. Luke: Typically don't care much about the Metacritic and just because you get high Metacritic score doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna do really well and vice versa Some games that are a block acclaimed might have a low Metacritic score Matt: There are definitely outliers. There's some really good examples of that. think Portal is one got an incredibly high Metacritic score, but only sold initially. So tens of thousands of copies. Obviously it is now sort of, you know, beloved by all. Yeah, exactly. And the reverse is also true. Lots of games that have scored sort of like fairly average-ly, but sold incredibly well. ⁓ However, there are stats to say Luke: Cult. Matt: that particularly high scores do have a positive effect on sales. It does need to be 84, 85 plus, and it has to have had the, you know, it has to have been genuinely a good game and had a good marketing machine behind it. But then that's when it really starts to come together, all those different sort of confluence of events, if you will. Yeah. Luke: Mm. Tasha: Mm-hmm. So the most experience I've had of Myth Critic is when I worked in Rebellion where we kind of gauged where the games sat when they were released. Not gonna lie, past that I've not really had much engagement with it. Luke: Hmm. Tasha: Haha! Matt: Great take, Tash, thanks. ⁓ Luke: Yeah, a lot of companies do do put a lot of effort into it and they do like listen to it more and they focus too much on it sometimes and you can end up burning time and effort. Tasha: You can't. I just genuinely don't see why you waste so much energy on it. Luke: It's almost like what they do with politics, isn't it? They do polls and then before they're about to do something, they do some polls and they say the polls say this, the polls say that. But yet, if you ask me, probably you guys, have you ever been polled by the government? No. Do you know anyone that's been polled by the government? Matt: Only in the... Luke: Yeah, not, yeah, not, not, I'm not talking about bent over by the government. I know that's what you're going. But yeah, so, but, but like, and the Metacritic scores are often, I don't know, from a magazine review that you've taken, taken for granted, but perhaps the marketing team get on really well with that magazine company, and they've got a really good relationship and stuff. And it's like, hang on, how did that score go so high when it wasn't that great again and stuff? the Matt: ⁓ yeah. Tasha: Maybe. Luke: There's a lot to it and the data is not always. Valid. Tasha: I'm just trying to think, isn't there something else that we use? Is IGN give you review scoring? Is that not? Luke: IDM would be one of the data sources for the Metacritics Core. Matt: Mm-hmm. What was the one you said earlier? Game ranking? Yep. Tasha: Yeah. Luke: Game rankings, the one, Yeah, Eurogamer and yeah, all these. Matt: Does Amazon actually have Metacritic built into their point of sale? Which is interesting, especially as they're a games publisher, which it feels perhaps like a conflict of interest. Yeah. Or someone is marking the homework here. Well done, Oz. Tasha: I don't know. Luke: Mmm. Yeah. They're marking their own homework. Pat on the back. Really, really good work, Luke. Really good work. Tasha: Mm. Good job. Luke: We're amazing. Matt: It should buy our game that we published. Luke: Yeah, we think you should buy our game because we think it's great. Yeah. Tasha: I Matt: Is it, you know, the thing that I was thinking about earlier when I was researching this was, it, is it the antithesis of artistic endeavor? You know, you're trying to, know, video games are art. You know, I still think that's a topic that's up for debate, but I think that like broadly speaking, like enough video games have been produced that are. works of art that you could argue for. So, I mean, for example, is there an art critic website where you rank different pieces of art, where then you release a version of your masterpiece early so that everyone can weigh in with their opinion on whether your new painting is worthy of public appreciation and sales. Luke: I'm sure there is. Tasha: But could that not be the same for music, books, ⁓ and every other? Because they do have their own. Books will have their ratings, Good reason, everyone will do that. I'm pretty sure music has loads of that sort of stuff. Matt: Good reads. Luke: And there's a bias there. ⁓ if there's a review for a game and the majority of the like is coming from audio people or audio files and they say the music's amazing, it's a great game. Hang on. The music's great, it's not a great game. And the other thing I think about is if you compare it to film. So like the film 300, right? It's a visual masterpiece. It's amazing, it's beautiful, but it's a shit film, let's be honest. It's a shit film that it doesn't really do much. It kind of goes on this boring linear path. It doesn't really go anywhere. I, this is Sparta. Okay. Gerald Butler and his stupid accent. Um, they, sorry. Um, but you could look at that and go, that's a visual masterpiece is amazing. It's stunning, but actually it, it, doesn't. And there's games like that as well. Games that are visually beautiful and like really cool. And there's games that are beautiful that are actually really good as well. But there's games that are really ugly that are fantastic. Tasha: Yeah. But I can't. That's personal preference, right? So like there's a game that I've got amazing scores and done really well. was Journey, if you remember. And it was just like this little game that you play as a little, I don't know, triangular dude. And you collected a whole bunch of scarves. Visually amazing. Great graphics. I hated it. I don't have that. I have to be like, why am I here? What am I doing? Why am I collecting scarves? What am I jumping around for? Matt: Yes. ⁓ Luke: Mm. Mm. Right. What's going on? Tasha: Why am I in the snow? What is... It made me so frustra... No, but that made me really frustrated. So it's all personal preference. I don't do vibes. Luke: You just got to go with the flow, Tash. Right, yeah. Matt: It's a vibes game. Luke: Yeah, it's cause you like Final Fantasy, you're like, I want stats, give me XP! Yeah. I'm with you, I'm with you. Do you like Zelda? Tasha: No, I just want a story. But I can appreciate visually. I like Summer's Elders, yeah. the last one I played properly was probably The Ocarina of Time. Luke: Okay, but that's got a good mix of fantastic gameplay and visuals and audio and all that sort of stuff. It takes a lot of boxes. Tasha: Yeah. Matt: I mean, ideally you want to sort of marry the audio visual aspect of it, but I think I was reading an article or at least an interview with the guys that did Caves of Cod. And if you've seen that, that is really old school graphics like Commodore 64 era possibly even prior to. But it's the core concept of the game is so interesting. Luke: Mmm, and it's a lot more like that now. Tasha: Mm. Matt: and unique that it's that it's it's what they've done is they've they've had to I think this is someone kind of pull me up on this if I'm if I'm wrong but they've they've used relatively sort of basic graphics so that they can make the game as complex and as interesting as they feasibly can and that's the trade-off I don't think I mean it's the kind of game I don't think they could do with a with real with more Tasha: Mm. Luke: Yeah, they don't have to spend so much time on that. Yeah. Matt: graphics behind it, it would be very difficult for them to make it more visually pleasing. But my point remains the same, is that we have this way of... worrying about the audience, like the success of it based on the audience reception, based on the critical reception. And it's to the point now where it's even before the game is released, it's ⁓ a company's fortunes are sort of like hanging the balance. So the most recent example is Crimson Desert. Tasha: Mm. Luke: Yeah. Matt: that the company that made that, is it Pearl Abyss, ⁓ their stock ⁓ dropped 30 % on Pearl Abyss. How would you pronounce it? Luke: Abyss. Tasha: ⁓ Luke: No, just laughing. There's on the A. Okay. Perlibus. Perl- Abis. It's fine, either way, it'll just make me laugh at you. You underline the A. Yeah. Abis. Yeah. Tasha: Parlybus. Paralympus. Pearl Abyss. Abyss. Abyss. Matt: I did hit the A pretty hard. Abyss. Tasha: No, it wasn't even abyss, it was abyss. Luke: Abyss. Like you're reading how to spell it. How do I say it again? Anyway, come on, Carowmap. Matt: abyss pearl abyss pearl ab a score of 78 caused a 29.88 percent stock drop for pearl abyss Tasha: Yeah, Pearl Abyss. Luke: Yes, that's what happened. that's what happened. Yeah. Welcome to the chat, everyone. Tasha: Yes, yes AI Matt, welcome to the group chats. Matt: I am working on an AI avatar of me to host this instead. Yeah. Luke: We should. I think that because, it won't answer back so much. Every time you say the letter A, can you just underline it a bit more? ⁓ this. Tasha: I might say a best better. Matt: I'm not taking tips on how to pronounce things from a Scottish person. Thank you. Luke: Carry on. ⁓ wow. Tasha: No, that's because my English is better. Matt: Is it when I'm edit no no no no no no no I'm not done with this conversation ⁓ When I'm trying to edit this and I'm trying to get the subtitles right I have to rewrite your entire script Luke: Yeah, too shy. Anyway, what was you saying, Matt? What were you saying, Matt? Tasha: Ha Luke: Now we need this bit. We need this bit. No more editing, just let it roll. Tasha: ⁓ Just let it roll. Matt: So in the months, no, this is all usable. In the months up to launch, I think that the stock price for Pearl Abyss rose by about 50%, possibly more, on the back of the hype around the game. And then with this Metacritic score of 78, after the embargoes and so on, the stock drop was impressive. Luke: role. Tasha: Mm-hmm Matt: like 30 % again, even though the game sold over 2 million copies in less than 24 hours. Yeah. Luke: Mmm. It's nuts, isn't it? Tasha: Yeah. Should companies, profits and what not, solely hang in the balance of pre-assumed assumptions? Luke: But that's business, isn't it? And that's the way the stocks and all that sort of stuff works. people do that deliberately as well. They spread news to make stocks plummet to buy them. Tasha: Hmm Mm. Luke: I won't talk about the oil price, but it's just dropped. Matt: it? Interesting. We're not, anyway, not that kind of podcast. Yeah, it's a whole, that's a spin-off podcast. It is After Hours. Luke: No. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. After Hours podcast, we call it. I was gonna say... After... Yeah. I was gonna say something as well. Shit, no, no, I was gonna say something. Before Pearl Abyss, I had something in my head that I was gonna bring up, but it's gone. It might come back. Abyss. Right, Bisto. ⁓ Bisto. ⁓ Bisto. Tasha: This is after the worst. Matt: ⁓ bis. Mm, ⁓ bis. So, ⁓ bis, so nice. Tasha: ⁓ this. ⁓ this. Luke: haha Matt: ⁓ is what's the future for Metacritic because like you alluded to this earlier Luke that I'm assuming that we're recording that section that it's a snapshot so you can send you can put something out early and if it gets reviewed if it's open for review on Metacritic it's a snapshot of that game in time and it does not reflect changes to that game made over Luke: Yes. Matt: its lifespan. the really good example of that is dammit, what's the one with the planets and the flying and the, it was terrible. No, the other one. It was terrible on launch and they spent years fixing it. Thingamajig. Yeah, that one. Something, something, Arbus? Luke: Planetside. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ I know the one you mean. That one. Yeah. It was a, it was, no not Pearl Abyss. It was, it was an extraction game. It was an extraction. No? ⁓ Matt: No, no, no man's sky. Thank you. Yeah. ⁓ Tasha: No man's sky. Luke: Okay, so what's the extraction game I'm thinking about? Okay, there was an extraction game that had a similar problem. They put a demo out too soon. It got absolute nylon, like a space extraction game. No, you get to fly spaceships and stuff, it really cool, but it was so buggy. You could literally fall out of the spaceship while you're trying to be flying it. Matt: Escape from Tarkov? Mar- Marathon. Hmm. Luke: That one. Put what's called in the comments, please. All our followers. Thanks, chat. Matt: Yes, Andrew. ⁓ And the... yeah, No Man's Sky. So in theory, the Metacritic score for No Man's Sky is probably terrible. I've not looked it up because it was just a snapshot of it in that moment. then cut to of like seven or eight years later, everybody loves No Man's Sky. It's a very well regarded game. They had a kind of amazing redemption arc. Luke: Yes. Yeah. Yep. Matt: ⁓ that very few games genuinely sort of like that like cyberpunk probably ⁓ a similar ⁓ story but Is this really important anymore when we have more and more games coming out that are maybe not ready, that maybe want to be out early? So what is the future for Metacritic? Is it going to become obsolete? Are there going to be better websites that are more adaptive? Luke: This is what I was gonna say. So I think what's happening with film, with music and with gaming is that we've gone from having this sort of route into releasing games and music and film and now it's done this. I know you can't see my arms, but my arms are really wide. It's basically widened out, spread out so thin that you've got niches, you've got people that are into very niche type of horror, you've got people that are into a very niche type of rap, you've got an audience that are into really old school Commodore 64 remakes. on a console that's just like Commodore 64. You've got games that are coming out on handhelds that are just for that handheld device. And there's people that have the old Amigas, like there's like a new version of the old Amiga, there people producing games on them, like a completely different niche market. They won't give a toss about Metacritic and stuff like that. Yeah, it might be Amiga, but yeah, I've got friends that are into those sort of retro new machines. They're not the old machines, they're new retro machines. Matt: Do you mean the arm ego? Luke: which is amazing. there's phones that are coming out that are based around sort of retro phones. that everything's widening is what I'm getting at. And things like Metacritic are very linear. It's like, you must follow this linear path to releasing something, same as Spotify, et cetera. But the music and film and movies and games and all that sort of stuff are going in a way you can't predict. And that's a great thing. So. Unless they can scrape the entire internet for everything about that product and that thing and make it realistic and not paid for and not manufactured, yada yada, then it's already obsolete. It's obsolete now. Tasha: Mm. Matt: Yeah. mean. In that case is Steam. So have you ever sort of gone on to SteamDB to look at, know, so yeah, it's basically a database for Steam games. And that does have the same sort of functionality that you see on the Steam ⁓ store page. ⁓ And it shows you what the overall score is, and it shows you what the most recent like number of scores is. And so there's something there as well, even Steam recognized to a certain extent, fact that scores can change over time. Luke: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Matt: So, you know, why is there not already a, I guess a challenger, you know, to Metacritic that is a lot more sort of live almost? Luke: I think you're onto something there with Steam. think platforms are the way you could judge that. So the Steam as a platform, you see spikes of games that come from nowhere. They just go, and then everyone's playing that game. There was a fake Pokemon game that came out like six months, a year ago that loads of people playing. It was fun. It was silly and great, but it was, it was like a rip off a Pokemon. Loads of people jumped on that. There was a game where Sea of Thieves spiked at one point as well. And I love that. I love when things just spike and just come from nowhere. And you can use Steam for that sort of stuff. And I think the Google Play market and Apple sort of markets and stuff like that have that same sort of thing. So maybe that's the answer is aggregating the data from these various platforms and then using that as the overall score. Maybe we can produce a thing that scrapes all that data map. Tasha: Just a graph on a dashboard, Luke: Yeah, just scrape all that data and present it. It's fine. do it. Just do it now. Give me five minutes. Matt: Yeah. Tasha: That's it, right? All right, Matt, cool. Good, go for it. Matt: All right. I'll just. Luke: ⁓ Dear ChatGPT, can you scrape all the data? Matt: off the internet. I tried to use Grafana once and I gave up immediately because I'm just stupid. Luke: No, I think that's good. I think we've covered a broad range, but we welcome questions in the comments and we can bring it back as a topic. Like, subscribe, comment, provocatate, provocatate. It's a new word. I just made it up. Yeah. Provocatate. Inflate, provocatate. Matt: Questions, comments. We need to do one of those kind of provocatate. Flaily? Provocatate? I like provocatate. Tasha: provocative. Provocative. Luke: ⁓ It's like comment in a provocative way. Matt: I thought it was maybe like a sort of sexy Mr. Potato Head. Provocatator. Tasha: Look at it. Luke: No. Hello darling. What the of a tater? Maybe that's what this episode's called. There we go, boom. Okay. Tasha: From Fokker Twitter. That's a different type of potato. Luke: Yes. Provocatato. Put that on a t-shirt, Provocatato. In light suspenders. Yeah. Matt: Provocatato. Sexy potatoes. Provocatato. do need to do some merch at some point. ⁓ maybe, why did Jesus? Tasha: Pfft. The provocatate. Luke: Fuck Tato. Matt: Why did Jesus get cancelled and provocatato just a very potato Luke: there, boom, on T-shirts. Tasha: What would the Jesus get cancelled look like? Would it just be Jesus with a giant X over him? Matt: That could be, yeah, I like that. can pitch ideas. Luke: No, just Jesus on the cross. Jesus on the cross after he's died. Tasha: on a t-shirt. Matt: Jesus on the cross, but with the red cross through it. Or Jesus on the red cross. Yeah. Anyway, we'll figure it out. And I like these ideas, Yeah. Why? Who buy? Well, exactly. Tasha: with a red cross. Luke: Yeah, he's done for. Yeah, thanks. Tasha: Just on a t-shirt. Luke: We're gonna get canceled if we talk about Jesus too much. ⁓ I don't know, someone. Jesus will cancel us. He's coming back apparently, He's coming back. Yeah, he's having a rebirth. Tasha: ⁓ we will. the religions will come after us. Matt: He's is he? It's about time. It's been ages. Luke: It's Easter, he's coming back. Tasha: And all I want to do is, it's about time time. Give me a minute. In a minute. Matt: What the? Luke: In a minute. ⁓ Tasha: Beef. And teams, can't we all just get along? Luke: Peace. Matt: Yeah, here we go. Luke: Can't we all just get along? Tasha: Yeah, sure. Why not? Luke: I said that in meeting once at SCI Games. It went down well and it wasn't forgotten. Everyone was arguing and I was like the assistant producer at the time and I spoke up every now and again. I just said, can't we all just get along? And everyone just shut up and that point it became my sort of catchphrase. Matt: Did you? Tasha: Hmm. you Matt: Can't be, I'll just go. Tasha: . Matt: I've been working with ⁓ some guys recently and they've been, on more than one occasion, they've said, ⁓ we need to remember like sometimes that we're just making video games. It's not, yeah. And I love that. Luke: Yeah, absolutely. No one's gonna die. We're just making games. Unless you're making video games that train the army. Yeah. Tasha: Yeah. have that conversation recently with They were talking about all the jobs and they were we treat it as if it's life or death and that the world depends on it. I was like, we're just making games. We're not surgeons. We're literally, we've lost the fun of making games, which is weird because games are about creating fun. Matt: Go on. Luke: Yeah. There's a statement on his issue. Make making games fun again. Now make making games fun again. Matt: Make games fun again. ⁓ making games fun again. ⁓ Yep. Tasha: Making yeah, making yeah. Yeah. Like, Jitter was fun. Like, making Jitter at a prog ball was fun. It was, yeah. Yeah. It was like, it was my favorite job to date. Luke: Put that on a red hat. Yeah, I enjoyed it probably. I got some good times. Core memories. That was a good job. You never realise at the time when you've got a really good job or really you've got a really good experience. It's always after you look back and go, shit, that was really good. I really wish I'd appreciated it. Matt: Alright. Tasha: Hmm. Yeah. ⁓ I fully appreciate it. Luke: Like me and you, Matt, staying up all night long. No, hang on, playing games, testing games. Testing games all night long. That was good fun. And we were listening to Stevie Wonder and Luther van Drost and all that sort of stuff. Thanks to Alan. Do remember Alan? Alan was in charge of the music. Yeah. He used to play CDs. Do remember those? He used to play CDs. Matt: mean, testing games all night long. Yeah. All night long. Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: Hmm laughs Matt: I do vaguely remember Alan, which is weird for me, because I don't remember anything. CDs. Yeah, I remember cassettes. Tasha: ⁓ do you remember cassettes? ⁓ CDs were. Or was it the little... That's the ones, yeah. Not the cassettes. I had a MiniDisc player. Luke: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The CDs were special. many discs yeah many discs yeah yeah they should they should have stuck about they were arguably better quality than CDs Matt: All right, before we go too far down this fucking nostalgia. Yeah, I know, but it's just remember it's just like our remembering things. That's that's the whole conversation is do you remember stuff? It's like, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, Tasha: Yes. Luke: I like this rabbit hole. Let's get a rabbit hole. Tasha: I like this to have a whole memory lane. Wait, no, hold up. Do you remember stuff back? Luke: Alright we can talk about do you remember games then? ⁓ is that what it is mate? You just can't remember much you get jealous you're like fuck you guys I can't remember it yeah mini what? mini Walkmans? yeah yeah Matt: I just don't remember anything. I don't fucking... I don't remember tapes. Mini-discman? I don't remember anything. Tasha: I can't remember this, I can't remember this! Ha ha! Luke: I don't remember what it My brain's gone. Why's my brain gone numb? Tasha: Amen. Matt: I barely remember this morning. ⁓ I've got to do another marker now because you guys faffing around. It's a good job we don't pay per marker. Just got to do another 50 pence. ⁓ Yes, true. ⁓ Luke: Haha. Tasha: Hahaha! Luke: Sorry. That was a nostalgia moment. Tasha: Hahaha! Luke: No Tasha: No, we don't, you do. Yeah, come on Matt, when do we get our money? Luke: Yes. Now, when do we get our money by the way, Matt? Should we invoice you for this? Where's my money? Matt: Yes, you can definitely invoice me. Luke: Okay, sweet. Cool. ⁓ Tasha: Yeah. Luke: ⁓ shit, dude, what do like? Mate, don't you remember Green in the pub that day with me and Dash? Yeah, you told us how much you were gonna pay us. Yeah. Tasha: Yeah. We wrote it on a coaster. Matt: I don't remember anything. Tasha: Develop a sofa, by way. Luke: Yeah, it was nearly a year Matt: It was nearly a year ago. ⁓ Do you remember DEVELOP last year? Right. All right, shut up, you two. Hang on. ⁓ my god. ⁓ my god. Tasha: Here they go. No? No? Luke: Hey, hey. Me and Tash had a really nice meal. That was a great meal. I'm getting nostalgia again. That was a great meal. We just randomly walked into this ridiculously expensive restaurant, man. We've both been made redundant and Tash thought this place looks good. Yeah, it good. Then I looked at the menu, was like, how much for a steak? But Tash was happy. So I was just holding like, like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, looks fine, Tash. Yeah, looks good. I'm thinking, Yeah, I did have some money. Did have some money. Tasha: We're done. Who did this? Fuck it! Shut up you had your money. Matt: Sometimes you just gotta go with the kind of joy of it rather than, yeah. All right, will you two shut the fuck up now so I can intro this segment, please? Yes. Luke: Yeah, I didn't report back to management. I kept that under radar. Yes. Are we on shut the fuck up segment? Okay, go. Is this PG by the way, Matt? What's the certificate on this one? ⁓ Tasha: Go with the Tasha boozy flow. Yeah. Matt: Have you developed ADHD? Oh, okay, right fine. ADHD may have got worse. Tasha: Are we going to have Peggy Rittings? Luke: What do mean if I developed it? I've always had it, This is a standard operating procedure. Tasha: The Lick-O-Ware system is burning out. You pulled the bear. Luke: Yeah, yeah, just, it's woken up. Yeah, I've got I've got Lucas a that's what it is. I'm waking me up. Matt: I've got a right. Luke: Other energy drinks are available. This isn't Wayne's world. Matt: This is like, it's 20, it's 20, it's like, it's quarter past eight, man. Yeah, I'm looking at it, quarter past eight. It's like bedtime, basically. I'm rounding up. Luke: Are you looking at the time? Are you looking at the time? Tasha: No, it's 12 minutes past 8. Don't be dramatic, you fool. No, don't round down. It's under 5. Round down. Luke: Getting so old, man. Getting so old. Okay, go on then, on. Round down! Round down! We're project managers and producers, round down! Matt: All right. It's 10 past 8. The five minutes does not make a difference. Luke: There we go. Boom. No, no, it's a big difference, man. It's a big difference. Ask your wife if your five minutes take makes a difference. Tasha: Ha ha ha ha ha. Luke: Yeah. Matt: Aww. Tasha: He's roaching up. Matt: I'm rounding up. I'm just waiting for it to click over to 2013 so I can say it's quarter past eight. I can round up now. It's 13 minutes past eight, which means it's quarter past eight, which means I can't. Not on this clock. And that's the only one that matters. Scottish time. Luke: Yeah Tasha: No, you can listen. No. It's still 12 minutes past eight. ⁓ Luke: No, Scottish time is different. It's not a clock is an ock. ⁓ Tasha: Now it's 13 minutes past eight. Matt: It's a clock either noon. Luke: clock height. No way! I like that, yeah. Anyway, on that note. Tasha: I'm fucking clock yous. Matt: you Tasha: Right, move on Matt, hurry up. You're slowing us down. Matt: Now I've got to put another... shut up you two. My god. The worst. You've got to shut up. I need a minute. I need a moment of silence. Yeah. Luke: Come on, Matt. Press the button already. Press Bhutan. Oh, we've got a pause. We've got a pause. Go. Do you need a long pause? Tasha: It's about time time. Luke: or a slow pause. Matt: We're not getting to this segment, are we? It was going pretty well, to be fair and square. I'm having fun. But we're not making a lot of progress. No. But I mean, what are you... Tasha: Tonight is a disaster. Luke: It is going really well, I'm having lots of fun. No, but fun, progress. Progress, progress. Tasha: Hey look, be wished, be wished man, stop it. Matt: Do what? Luke: Yes, stop it. Matt, stop it. I don't know. Tash, Tash, towel's off. Matt: Stop what? It's time- ⁓ fucking hell. Will you shut up, Shut up for two seconds. Luke: I'm just breathing! Stop breathing Luke! Tasha: Hold on, hold on. Matt: It's time for game production challenges and we're to be talking about beef in teams. Why can't we all just get along? Tash, Luke, can't we all just get along? Tasha: Fabulous question. Matt: Yeah. I muted Luke and he hasn't realized. Tasha: I saw that. Yeah, I saw it. was great. It was beautiful. This is why we can't get along. Because you mute your producers. Luke: You fuck. This is why you don't have nice things, Because you mute your team. Matt: I regret nothing. I would do it again. I would have done it earlier if I'd thought about it. Tasha: Yeah, you will. Luke: I know, can tell. Well, yeah, you probably will. Yeah. Okay. ⁓ good shout. ⁓ Tasha: Why can't we get along? Is it conflicting personalities, conflicting views, conflicting priorities? Luke: If we all got along, we would be in an echo chamber and we'd all agree with each other and we'd make shit products. You have to have a little bit of a debate. You have to have a little bit of disagreement. As long as you respect each other, you can make something great. Tasha: But do we though? Luke: I think good companies and good studios that make good products largely do get along. Tasha: Mm. Luke: They might crack the whip, like I know GTA and games like that have worked really, really hard to get things done, but they're all on the same mission. They're all driving towards the same outcome. Tasha: Yeah. Matt: they cracked the whip and they bust the unions. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Matt: Is it so I mean this really? Yeah, this topic. This topic is is about conflict then so you know conflict within within teams. So what is the role of the producer? ⁓ When? This transpires. Luke: 10 % unhappy. Hmm. Tasha: to hear the conflict, to hear, assess, and I guess look into in ways that you can resolve it amicably, mutually, that moves things forward in a productive light. Luke: Yeah. And a key thing is being patient with it and not trying to fix it straight away. It's all about listening to the different personalities, listening to the different sort of cultures, listening to the different ages, different levels of experience and stuff like that, because artists will naturally get on better with artists. Programmers will naturally get on better with programmers. You put them in a room together, there'll be some conflict, but you've also got the dynamics of someone that's less experienced wanting to be heard and having something to say, but Tasha: Hmm. Luke: they haven't got that, that sort of core experience that gives them sort of some of the obvious things, ⁓ as like ruling these things out versus someone that's very experienced. But then you've also got the other hand of someone that's very experienced, might be slightly burnt out or might not think outside the box. So you've got that contrast. Tasha: You've also got your different communication styles that do cause massive conflicts. So you've got your more direct logical thinkers who just get to the point. You've got the people that like to talk around a subject, pad it out, like the formalities or waffle. You've got others who are your big idea thinkers who like to think outside the box constantly, but don't actually come down to where the problem is. they're all way over here, whereas the problem's down here. So you've got your big idea thinkers, you need to bring them back. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: And it's a mixture of those personalities and communication styles can cause a lot of conflict and a lot of miscommunication as well, because a lot of things can get misheard or misunderstood, which can cost you time and money. And there lies another conflict and another thing you have to resolve. ⁓ Luke: Yeah. And especially when you work remote and stuff, if you're directly working in a sort of an office together and or boardroom together, talking through something, it's much, much easier to solve these conflicts than working remotely, because you pick up on people's body language and mannerisms and stuff like that. And maybe you chat to them in the kitchen, maybe you chat to them over a cigarette. If you smoke smoking kills, don't smoke, but those things, they, those things make a big difference when you can talk to someone face to face. And I think there's something to be said about. Tasha: Hmm. Luke: being in the same sort of vicinity of someone you naturally have a little bit more respect versus this remote thing where you feel separate. Not like you're a troll, but you just feel a bit more separated from it. Tasha: Yeah, levels of seniority as well, that's the thing. that transcends whether it's remote or in person. If you're quite new and quite fresh in your career and you have to deal with someone who's a CEO, that's intimidating. So you might just say yes, even though you know that what you're doing is wrong or you don't know what you're doing at all. You could just say yes and you probably will. You might not have the confidence to go directly to a CEO and say Luke: Yeah. Yeah, you feel nervous. Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: this, that or the next thing, or to resolve a problem or say, you probably didn't handle this well, we could have communicated this better. You may not have that confidence to be that comfortable with people of that level of seniority. Even between like juniors and seniors, there can be the level of conflict depending on how your senior holds themselves or how your junior holds themselves. There's a lot of nuance to this. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there is. Yeah. It's seniority. It's discipline. It's culture. So someone from one country talks completely different than someone from another country. ⁓ a lot of some cultures will say yes to everything and then try and fix it after and cause cause themselves problems. ⁓ some, some cultures will say no to everything unless you explain why and all this stuff. So you've got all that to do with, and then having a clash of those versus seniority. Tasha: Mm-hmm. Luke: It can get quite messy. So the producer and project managers and scrum masters and those sorts of roles are there to try and they have to listen. It's really important to listen. Don't try and fix it straight away. It's, it's about listening to what's going on. Listen to the different people, cultures, and all the sort of challenges. Then having a word, having a, having a think about what, you can do to fix it. And ideally deal with people one-to-one initially. Don't, don't do the whole, get them in a room together, make them hug that doesn't work. It's not, it's not. Tasha: I think the thing that I'm trying now is because I find that because I am a direct communicator myself, I'm telling people how it's best to communicate with me and I'm ultimately like asking them how it's best to talk to you. Because in this day and age, people do pick up on these things and they do get uncomfortable with it, in particular with people who are very direct. So it's like, hey, look, I'm not into complex language. I'm not into fluff. Luke: primary school. Matt: you Luke: Yeah. Tasha: I like it direct. I like you to tell me what you want, what you're looking for, and what you want me to do with this information. Keep it simple. Because if you don't, these are the questions that are going to fire at you. And it's not because I'm trying to be mean. It's because I'm trying to get the most effective solution in the fastest possible time. Luke: Yeah, and even the term fluff to someone like me who's a bit, I'm a bit more poetic. I'm a bit more flowy and a bit more. So the word fluff for me is like, no, I'm adding some poet poet, poetism to it. I'm giving it a bit more structure. And you're like, Luke, just tell me what you want. Okay. Yeah. Which is, yeah, that's fine. I've also worked with a programmer that was mildly autistic. And one of the first things she said to me was like, can I have a chat with you? Like we had a planning meeting and she said, can I have a chat with you? And she wanted to explain how she feels about things and how she didn't. Tasha: Yeah. Yep, precisely. Luke: She didn't really pick up on subtleties and stuff like that about emotion and things. She really explained it well. And it made me not treat her different treat as a special kid gloves or anything, but it made me not think she's being harsh when she was saying something or giving feedback or something. And it also made me back her up. If anyone ever reacted negatively to it, I would, wouldn't be saying, stop. She's mildly autistic. I wouldn't be saying that. It'd be more like, no, she's got a valid point because there's such a such and, and then try and encourage that conversation back and forth with her because she Tasha: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Luke: she'd appreciate the back and forth conversation much more than someone going, ⁓ that's rude. And sort of keeping themselves very British way. Tasha: Yeah. Yeah. I've had programmers come to me and is best how I communicate. And I've always really appreciated how they've come and told me because I'm like, when I say, can we have a chat? For me, that's not a scary sentence, but for some people it can because they think, oh shit, I'm in trouble. So I learned with this particular programmer and like, hey, I just want to talk about this part of the game that we seem to be having problems in, but I need to wrap my head around it. Can you chat me through it? They'd be okay with that. However, if I just go, hey, can we have a quick chat? Luke: Mm. Yeah. Tasha: I them. Well, I'm really sorry. Luke: Yeah. And that is quite a terrifying phrase as well from a producer to a team. Cause they're like, ⁓ shit, I've done something wrong. Yeah. Especially someone that's proclaimed someone, someone that's proclaimed themselves being direct you, me talk now. Yeah. Yeah. But there's, different phrases you can use, isn't it? And this, this is a good, a good segment on his own matters. Like what sort of phrases can you use instead of, ⁓ Matt: Especially a Scottish producer. It's like... Yeah. You and me outside. Yeah. Tasha: I'm not that telephone. The noggle Yumi talk now, went, can we have a chat? Now we save that for the pub. Luke: Can we have a quick chat? there's like, even when you've got five minutes, let me know. Like there's loads of phrases that you should avoid using really. and, then it was, yeah. So, so, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm being direct. So are you Matt? Yeah. Yeah. That's cause no, just, just no. Yeah. Tasha: Mm-hmm. Matt: You said that you said that I'd make a good segment. I don't think so. There's some direct communication for you. No, I disagree. I will read it. you want to pitch it, I'll read it. But it's a no from me. OK, so we have all these different things that sort of contribute to why teams feel like maybe they can't always get along. We've got different perspectives, different communication styles, different cultural. Tasha: Nah. I disagree. Matt: different backgrounds, we've got online versus in person, the seniority. The challenge here is how we start to bring all these different people together in a way where it becomes more of a ⁓ melting pot and less of personalities butting up against each other. You were talking there a little bit about the solution here is... listening, as like, you know, trying to figure out where the communication issues are present and where communication is breaking down to try to help to solve that. Tashi was saying, you know, be explicit as far as your communication preferences are concerned. It's a really useful thing to do across an entire organization, just to give people a little bit more self-awareness around these things. Luke: Yeah. Matt: But what else works when you are trying to help people manage conflict? You can't stamp conflict out and it's not healthy to do so because then everyone's just kind of nice and they dance around it. So how do you breed a culture of healthy conflict? Tasha: No. Luke: Mmm, you don't want that. Yep. Tasha: I mean, there's not always. You can do your best and there's no silver bullet to this. That's going to fix all the problems. So point in case that I had a job that I worked at where there were two leads that were determined hell after high water to just clash continuously. You pull out all the tricks, you pull out all the stops and legit got to a point where like, I genuinely don't know anymore. I'm just exhausted. There are some that genuinely just want to clash. Luke: Yeah. But there's, there's, there's techniques to that as well. So at CCP, for instance, the, the art, art, leads, and then the design leads and the tech leads would often have arguments and stuff, but there'd be times where I say, do you know what guys, can I just stop this conversation? This debate is really healthy. It's really good. Just keep it respectful and carry on this debate because then you'll find a balance that's going to work. Tasha: Mm. Yeah. Luke: And the more you say that as a producer, the more you encourage that mindset of like, it's healthy to argue. It's healthy to have this debate because we've got to find that equal level where the technology is this much, the art is this much, the design is this much. We all want what we want, but we've got to find that the way to work together. So I think encouraging it makes it positive. If you say, we got to stop arguing, that makes it such a negative. And then those people feel like they're, they're pushed in a corner and they want to fight their corner. it's like, no, hang on a minute. It's okay to have that debate as long as you keep it respectful and that's the tricky bit. So some people have that feeling of I'm being disrespected because you're going over me. Tasha: Yeah. The debate is good. Yeah. The debate is good. In this particular instance, despite even using that advice, they just kept going at it. you're not going to win every battle. But I guess the kind of point is it's doing the best you can to help move things forward in a productive and positive way and keep the environment from going toxic. it's like you say, it's listening to all sides, all angles, going out and getting more information so that you are more armed. Luke: Yeah, you can't win everything. No. Yeah. Tasha: helping people understand each other. What can you see the cat? Luke: Tash's cat's Elm the dangerous. I just heard the cat picking up a gun or something. Matt: Just hear it. Yeah, just keep hearing it kind of, then a kind of clack clack. Tasha: She knocked over, she's decided that the desk is her friend and she's knocked everything off the desk because she wants attention. But it's one of these things, it's just making way to get all the information that you can and realizing that you're not always gonna win and you're not always gonna pick the right path. Sometimes you're gonna choose things, you're gonna choose a direction and it's gonna be wrong. It's not gonna fit the situation. Luke: Yeah. Figured. This is like me, me, me. Talking about conflict, cats are conflict. Matt: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Luke: Yeah, but we've got to make progress. Tasha: you've got to make progress somehow. So it's definitely a nuance. And I think you're constantly learning. I'm still learning to this day. And it's like, OK, new bunch of people, new teams, new situations, new seniority. It's like, OK, how do we handle this? You go and you do it. Matt: All right, anything else on this before we move on? Luke: What do you think, Matt? What do you think? Conflict. Tasha: Yeah, what do you think? Matt: About what? About what? So. Asked and answered. We are moving on. we're gonna do, yeah. So now the new flow is outro first, then intro. Because it's easier for me to cut it out of the end and stick it on the front. It helps me with my editing. Tasha: Okay. Just like that. Luke: You Tasha: ⁓ Luke: Right, okay, yeah we want to save future maps. Tasha: Okay, Matt. Matt: This basically, yeah, just saves me a couple of minutes. It's quite useful, Yeah. Yes. ⁓ Luke: Is that you rounding up or down? Just yeah. Yes. Yes. All of the above. Tasha: Yes. Is it A or B? Yes. Luke: What games are you playing at the moment Matt? Tasha: Yes. Matt: ⁓ that's a terrible segment idea. Everybody does that. I hate it. Stupid. We're doing the outro and then we're doing the intro. Luke: He's very formal today, Tash, isn't he? He's like, yeah. Tasha: He is, isn't he? It's almost like he's in a rough. Matt: I'm like, I'm not, you know. Luke: Yeah, it's like he's got better things to do than be with us. Matt: I mean, that's always true. ⁓ Tasha: Matt, I'll have you remember you suggested this to us. Matt: Yeah. I did. I did suggest this. I stand by that suggestion. And I enjoy myself. Right. What did I say? We're doing outro. Yeah, we're doing the outro. ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just going to leave all this in. Yeah. Cat on the shoulder. Luke: outro Yeah, it's fine. Cat on a shoulder. Why not? Matt: ⁓ That is all we have time for for this particular ⁓ episode. ⁓ All that remains for me to do is thank you, our listener, and Tash and Luke, Tasha, Natani, and Luke Timms. If you would like to email us, ⁓ then it's gameprodpod at proton.me. ⁓ Hope you had a good time and enjoyed this as much as we did. And we'll see you next time. ⁓ Tasha: Bye. Luke: Bye.