Matt: Hi and welcome to GamePro wait wait, we do the intro at the end. What the am I doing? Luke: I don't know. Don't know what you're doing. Yeah. You need to keep that Tasha: Please put that in the intro. Luke: bit in though. Tasha: Yes. Luke: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of GameProd Pod. I am Luke. That's Matt. This is Tash. This week we are talking about gaming outside of games and the real life applications. We also talk about game production balancing the macro level versus the micro level. Can you stay in the clouds or can you go down to the weeds? We also played this game that me and Tash absolutely love and adore called True or Flace. I hope you enjoy the episode. please put your comments in the comments and like, subscribe, share with your friends, family, loved ones, even people you don't like would like this. Hi and welcome to the end of the beginning. Or beginning of the end. Matt: I'm I am Tasha: And what the fuck am I doing? And what the am I doing? Matt: have to bleep that out because otherwise YouTube get a bit shirty about swearing. It's something to do with swearing in the first few minutes of like the after that they Luke: Yeah. Matt: don't care so much. Luke Tash, how how the devil are you both Luke: Good. It rained yesterday. And it hasn't rained for a long time. Matt: It didn't rain here, you lucky bastard. Luke: It did we had one night of rain, it was good. You lark lark lucky bastard. Matt: No, not here. Lucky lucky lucky lucky bastard. Luke: Lucky Lucky Tash, do you know the reference? Tash doesn't know the reference. Tash you need to you need to watch all the Monte Pythons and then come back. Well wait, we're wait we're wait. Matt, let's just wait. Tasha: they're broken they're but they're broken no I don't I really don't know Matt: It's Monty Python. Yeah. Yep. In fact we're just gonna pause recording here. yeah, pause the recording. Tash is gonna Luke: Just gonna pause. Go Tash. Go see you in a few days. Matt: go Luke: Watch the Tasha: No. Luke: entire arsenal of Montpython. Tasha: No, she is not. She absolutely is not. Matt: Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. All right. Okay. Luke: Okay, all right. Next time, next time. Matt: So, Luke, it rained where you are, Tash, not where Luke: Hello. You did. Matt: you are. How are you, Tash? Tasha: Cash is back from competition time and has that medal. Luke: Woo she's got shiny things. Tasha: Yeah, Matt: what Luke: Shiny Tasha: Shinies Yep, European Championships, British Nationals. This one gets me to World Championships, which I go to in September. So. Matt: All right. Now, do you have to present that like on the door? Is it like a a ticket to get in? Luke: Yeah. Tasha: No, it's Luke: Mm-hmm. Tasha: recorded. It's all recorded anyway, but it's just nice showing off the middle. I mean, like that, that's Matt: okay, right, right. They got a digital record. Yeah, man. They do they Tasha: pretty. Luke: That is good. I like the I like the gold on. Matt: they look very they look very heavy. We were chatting about this earlier. Like Luke, you think you'd be able to use them comfortably as wights to do to do curls twice? Max max rep. Luke: That's a belt buckle. Yeah. And yeah, I could probably bicep curl that twice. Just twice. Yeah. Ain't that's t that's my max Tasha: Twice. So yeah. Luke: rep two. Yeah. Yeah. Matt: Ha ha ha ha. Tasha: So yeah, that's, that was, so those two medals, six weeks plus 12 weeks of training. Because I qualified at the British Nationals, I now get to go to Worlds in September, so I've got another like five weeks of training. So yeah, it's good. Can't wait for this season to end. Matt: Yes. And come back reigning champion, world champion, yes, that's the aim. Tasha: That's the aim, we're going for the experience. I there's a lot of countries going so far. There's like Hungary, Russia, Ethiopia, South Africa, all of them are going. So a lot of Luke: Wow. That's cool. Tasha: strong people, a lot of strong women. So, you know, if I can get a third again, then I'll be three for three. That would be nice. If not, then do you know what? At least I went and I threw my hat in the ring. Matt: Right. So we're how am I wow Thank you. It's a Luke: How are you, Matt? You've asked about us, how are you? You're not just a host for us. Tasha: Mmm! Matt: it's my job as the host to sort of bring you into the conversation, but thank you for asking. How am I? Yeah, I'm all right. Yeah. Luke: Okay. That Tasha: That's it. Matt: Ha ha ha. Luke: brilliant. That's about as good as my eleven year old gives me when I say how was school? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's alright. Yeah. Did you learn anything? No. Matt: Ha ha. Tasha: Yeah, it's It's fine. All right, Matt: No. Tasha: Nah. No, they do it. They learn at school socks. Luke: Sucks. Tasha: Mm-hmm. Matt: I mean we I mean we could save them Luke: Why are your shoelaces untied still? Matt: we could save them years and years of going to school by telling them that it it sucks and that they don't have to go because they're not really gonna learn anything anyway. Which which which Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Only two of the subjects are worth going to. Tasha: Only trauma, they will learn trauma. Matt: yeah, which two subjects, Luke? Luke: I think English and maths. Tasha: What, the Matt: interesting. Tasha: best subjects or the worst? Luke: The the only relevant I think science is relevant to an extent, but English and mouse. Matt: To an extent. Interest okay, English maths. Right. Interesting. Okay. Luke: Hmm. If you've got suggestions in the comments for other subjects, please please like and subscribe and comment. If I've triggered you, please comment Matt: other subjects that are worth going to school for, yeah. Tasha: Maybe geography, geography is very useful. Luke: triggered and then tell me why I've triggered you. Geography Matt: If I geography is stupid. If I need Tasha: Yeah. Matt: to know where things are, I'll Google it. Luke: Well, that's what Google Maps is for. That's to teach you geography. My kid knows how to use Google Maps, therefore she's good at geography. Brilliant. Tasha: Okay. Matt: See? who do you think out of the three of us Luke: Your kid he mister Yeah go on. Matt: who out of the three of us would you trust with a scalpel? Because we're gonna be talking about the use of of games outside the games in games industry. so outside of just pure entertainment, we're gonna Luke: Mm. Matt: be talking about that. So like who do you think would who's the most trustworthy The best motor skills. Luke: Well, because Tash Tasha: The reason we're not surgeons. Luke: Yeah. Tash is good with heavy weights, so I don't think she could grip something that meticulous. I think she'd be Matt: Mm. Tasha: Yeah, Luke: like fisty with it. Matt: Yeah. Tasha: I don't have the patience for many Luke: Yeah. Tasha: things. Luke: And I'm and my ADHD is too too troublesome. I'd get bored of a scalpel and try and pick up a hammer and I'd move from object to object. Or if I was if I was cutting out someone's liver I'd get a bit bored and cut out a h a lung or something like that. I'd just play around. Tasha: With that said, I don't used to have a cake business and that's fiddly. Luke: Okay. I was good at operation. Matt: Right, so you've both just said that you would be terrible at this and now you're like, maybe not so much 'cause you used to have a well wait, Tash Luke: We're arguing with ourselves. Matt: Tash, I I just I just wanna sort of just sort of dig dig into that. You had a cake business. Tasha: Yeah, yeah, back in Glasgow I used to make cakes in the side and make them for people's birthdays and whatnot, yeah. Luke: That's awesome. Mate me and Matt are both expecting Matt: Absolutely phenomenal. Luke: cakes now on their birthdays. Matt: Absolutely. Tasha: My favorite cake was a Halloween brain cake that I used to make. was great. Hold on. Luke: I knew it'd be something edgy like that. Yeah, like red blood gooing out the side of it. I can imagine that that's you, Tash. Sti stick Tasha: Yeah, of course it's me. Come on. Luke: some stick some links in the the comments. Matt: And and did Tasha: I will send you, I'll send you soon. Matt: Yeah, please do. And d was Luke right? D did did Goo ooze out of the brain? Was it like a filling thing? Tasha: No, it didn't ooze out. So I am really proud of how I used to make the blood because it was a jam. So you would make a smoothie, boil it down with some lemon juice and some red food colouring. So it became kind of coagulated like blood. Matt: Wow. The the the sheer amount of hidden talents, Tash, like genuinely phenomenal. And Luke, Tasha: Hahaha! Matt: you said that you wouldn't be able to do it because your ADHD would prevent you from focusing. Luke: Yes. Matt: but then you said you were very good at what's the operation. Luke: operation. Yeah, I was I was very good at that. Matt: Interesting, okay. Tasha: I wonder, is there a way that I can... Luke: I think I think the ticking made me focus more. So on that point, I do have a a Pomodoro app that I use on my phone that keeps me focused as well. I th there's something about the ticking. There's something about that that healthy level an anxiety that keeps me on a task at a time. And that's that's Matt: Just Luke: a good tip for anyone else that's got ADHD. it's good to have something that's keeping you on on focus and on target. And for for people like me that helps. And maybe for people that don't have ADHD, it would give them Bad anxiety, but it helps with me. Tasha: Okay, I've sent it in our LinkedIn chat. Gentlemen, it's the brains. Matt: Gotcha, love that. Have you? All right, thank you. I'll yeah, I just saw that come through. That's fantastic. I'll make sure Tasha: you Matt: that I pop those in the show notes. Or maybe I won't. I do s I say that a lot and then I never do. So Tasha: Fabulous. Luke: if if Matt hasn't, please put a comment in the below and say, Matt, you forgot Matt: phenomenal. Please do. Luke: the the link to something. Matt: Yeah, call me out on my absolute bullshit in the comments. feel free to do that lovely stuff. Ha ha ha Luke: Yes. We welcome that. Yeah, it's a feature. Matt: ha Okay, so games industry hot topic. Topic. we discussed the hot topic of the day and we tried to find a new angle on it. And today we are going to be talking about serious games and the use of games outside of pure entertainment. so we've got surgeons on sticks, you know, surgeons using video games to enhance their ability to operate. Those that's actually video games and specific simulators that have been built for them. and also beyond the operating room, so we've got drone pilots, astronauts, military personnel, massive companies using serious games as training as well. So gamification and simulations. Luke, Tash, what are your thoughts on this Luke: I'm a big fan. I think it's awesome. and I love I love the idea of surgeons trying some software first before they cut me open or do some brain Tasha: Mm-hmm Luke: surgery on me to get rid of, I don't know, like a tumour in my brain or something. I love the idea that they're trying it fifteen, twenty, a hundred times Tasha: Mm. Luke: until they get the technique right. I think that's great. And and the and the gap between what a game is and what entertainment is and what training is is is is narrowing as well. And sometimes you you may use something or have an experience with something but it's it's it's kind of a mashup of all these different things. Like I know people that play truck simulator and for hours they play truck simulator. I know people that watch people play truck simulator. I know people that watch people that watch people play truck simulator. I know that sounds like a inception but Tasha: Does truck simulator help you drive a truck? Luke: Well that's well yeah it does. Yeah, because it's quite it's quite it's quite realistic and it's quite monotonous and and you have to go from pit stop to pit stop and stuff like that. And what I'm getting at is that it's it it's interesting that people wanna do like l mundane things or straightforward things in in in a a a three D world if you like. And then if you go back to the brain surgeons things, it's saving someone's life by doing these things over and over again or repeat. Tasha: So what I'm curious about for that is the transversal. So you have the digital side, so you can practice and hone the cutting and whatnot. But you're obviously practicing the feed the world, so the resistance isn't there for you to feel the Luke: Yeah. Tasha: skin layers, the muscle, the flesh, the fat, any sinuous tendons. You don't know what any of those feel like. How does that translate over? So I'm wondering if there's a stage in between like tattoo artists practice on sketchbooks, then they practice on of plastic like oranges or pig skin to kind Luke: Mm. Tasha: of get the depth of the needles and to see how it feels on that before they start to tattoo people. Is there something similar for surgeons that you practice digital to get the fine art then maybe be used also start practicing trying to cut up I don't know pig cadavers to get that feeling of muscle sinuous tendon I don't know. Luke: Mm. Matt: Well, Luke: Yeah, Matt: in terms of that aspect of simulating the real environment, yeah, Tasha: Mm. Matt: that was actually sort of like I believe that I mean certainly I don't know if it started in Edinburgh or potentially Glasgow. I can't rec I can't recall. But certainly like there was a there was an epidemic in terms of like grave robbers taking like the you know, fresh cadavers and then taking them to scientific organizations Tasha: Mm-hmm. Matt: for them to practice, to them to to really sort of like, yeah, pick it apart. So in terms Tasha: Practice. Matt: of that, yeah, absolutely. What's really interesting about the the modern interpretation of training surgeons in particular is that there's two aspects to it. There's the kind of the very there's a hardcore simulation aspect to it, which I believe is still predominantly digital, so that you can get a feel for using the tools. And that's I believe that's referred to as something laparoscopic. surgery Tasha: Hmm. Matt: training. But there's this really neat thing that there's studies that they've done getting surgeons to play first-person shooters, racing games, and other kinds of games to see if they had that has an effect on Luke: Mm. Matt: their ability in those situations. What's really interesting, this there's specific surgery games around this as well, so it's not like theme hospital, for example. Luke: Hmm. Tasha: Yay! Matt: but you know, there's they've tried first person shooters that has a slow start but a really high gain really high gains after the first few weeks of playing results in significantly higher control. racing games don't have as much of an impact, interestingly enough, on surgeons specifically training. And then surgeon simulations, like real hardcore like surgeon digital simulations, like the serious game idea. Like they have incredibly high yield in terms of the benefit that they give to surgeons Luke: Mm. Matt: because it's not just training the the sort of reflexes or the the sort of the micro sort of movements of the the surgeon's hands, but you're sort of in there and it's like it's not real, but it gives you a really good chance that when you are in that real environment, that you will make fewer mistakes. And it is, it's tangible the difference. Luke: Yeah, and it's the reactiveness, I guess. Yeah, that that's what first person should give you, that that reaction speed, that be able to adapt. Tasha: There's definitely like a tested feasibility. So when I was in high school in our science assessment, it's it's the smallest test for it. But they, we have a group of us, we have like these stopwatches, these buttons. And basically the idea was, teacher, we start it, you have to stop it as soon as it starts. And they tested it amongst different kids to see how fast it took them to react and stop the buttons. I think I was in the top three with only seven seconds to react because I played a lot of games when I was younger. Luke: Mm. Tasha: So there is like there is a connection there but Luke: Definitely. Tasha: I don't know like I still find like you can do all the digital fine art like that finesse and that fine tune there that would make sense because like don't know the resistance of your skin the flesh that that would come into it as well that would still need real world practice. Luke: Maybe that's coming. Maybe that's coming in the in the sort of the VR world where you'd wear gloves or you'd wear Tasha: Mm. Luke: like suits that react to movement and stuff and like Yeah. The same Tasha: to give you like real life resistance onto your hands. Luke: as they're they're looking at sort of first person shooters where you wear a suit and and you when you get shot Tasha: Mm-hmm. Luke: it's like you get like a sort of subtle shock. haptic feedback, yeah. Yeah. Matt: So it's this haptic sort of I yeah, haptic feedback. Yeah. Tasha: subtle. Matt: I I I think that if that's not already something that is being done, I would expect that that it's it's relatively soon. Certainly, Luke: Yeah, I I imagine it is. Tasha: Hmm. Matt: yeah. I mean the kind of the work that they did on ch te trying to find out the impact that I mean, I think this is again, it's around specifically first person shooters, but the sort of the the the the massive benefits of playing verse first person shooters versus not. And there's a lot of research done into that. And the the this this kind of like this curious thing when you're playing a first person shooter, like that you have to focus, that you have to be able to kind of like put other distractions like out of mind. You also have to multitask, doing a lot of things at the same time, you have to be able to switch very, very quickly Tasha: Hmm. Matt: between those things as well. So that's all of these things. They did these amazing studies into it about how how much benefit you get from that versus people that don't play games. So non-gamers are at a then a natural disadvantage when put in the same situation as a gamer. Tasha: Mm. Matt: And so it's not the kind of it's not the simulation aspect of it, that is just pure you know playing video games like for entertainment, but you come out with this almost sort of like curious natural advantage in certain situations over regular people. Regular people, people that are playing games. What do you do with it? What do you do with your time? Tasha: Non-gamers. Sleep. Matt: The classic answer from T. I I just like to sleep. Tasha: So I do, honestly. Matt: What other what other examples did you guys come across while you were looking into this? Luke: I I know they do this with dentistry as well as an example. So being a being a dentist. It it gets me thinking about that sort of our role as as project manager producers as well, that we could broaden our horizons in the sort of roles we would go for as well. Maybe there's there's an avenue there for for producers and project managers to I know, I'm just saying f if someone did want to go down this route. Yeah. Tasha: I don't think I want to be a project manager slash surgeon. Project manager by day, surgeon by night. Matt: Yep, oop. Luke: I also I also find it fascinating that that maybe people that that wanted to be a policeman end up becoming a policeman in a simulation game or they wanted to be a truck driver but then they have twelve kids and they're they're tired at home so they end up doing truck simulator. So I find that quite fascinating as well. Even if th some of these games are th like these are this is more game rather than simulation of real world. But they they they want to spend all their time doing that and they enjoy it and they find it relaxing. Tasha: I played the little kitty big city, does this mean that I actually just want to be a cat and sleep? Luke: Yes, fact. Yeah. I've spent hours as a taxi driver in five roleplay. Just picking people up. That yeah, GTA five Just just wandering around Matt: That's the is that the GTA? Yeah. Tasha: I spent hours as a cat wandering the city. Luke: people, picking people up, making them laugh and doing a silly accent that I probably shouldn't shouldn't Tasha: Hahaha. Luke: do here. but yeah, it's just it's fun. Tasha: you Matt: and that's the that's like games are wish fulfillment. So yeah, that's I think that's Luke: Mm. Matt: always going to be a a a natural tendency for people that find their way into video games to go Tasha: Mm. Matt: to those games that where they can explore that in a in a safe environment. So Tasha: Yeah. Matt: what would it like to what would it be like to be a taxi driver? Yeah, truck driver, farmer. to Luke: Yeah. Yeah, truck driver, taxi driver, dentist, pharma, surgeon, axe killer. Tasha: If you take it at its most simplest form, education is gamified. In its most simplest form, that's where I guess it started. Like some of the earliest games I remember my dad getting me were a couple of games called Math Blaster and Zoombini's. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Whereas my dad got me Leisure Shoot Larry. So So yeah. So that's the difference between our parents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what a classic game that was. Yeah. Tasha: Well, different lessons. My dad got me logic puzzle and Matt: Ha ha ha Tasha: maths because I struggle with maths, just calculate, so that's fun. So my dad got me those and your dad got you, Larry. Luke: Yeah. How to escape from people wanting to beat you up, murder you and yeah, all sorts of dodginess. Very funny. Tasha: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matt: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tasha: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Matt: I I I went on a little bit of a a history tangent with this because I I I started the more I started thinking about the simulation aspect of it, the more I started thinking about chess and Go Luke: Mm. Matt: and the precursors of Tasha: Hmm. Matt: those games. I think Chaturanga is one. And it sort of led me down this this little rabbit hole where Is precursor to chess. And I think I there's go, which is the sort of like little black and white sort of dot things that you flip over. So I think that one that's that comes from the kind of like that's basically a synthesis of at the time. And then chess. and the sort of like the precursor to that, again, it's a synthesis of almost a kind of a battlefield situation that you might find yourself in. And all the different units can move in different ways to kind of simulate how that might look on a battlefield. Luke: Mm. Matt: But what that has sort of going against it to a certain extent is the fact that it is you take turns. Now that doesn't actually happen on a, you know, in a real war, like or it's Luke: The real world. Yeah. Matt: in any, you know. In any sort of like situation you might find yourself in, it's very rare that you will take turns at something. But then like skip two, and it it's like skip two hundreds of years later, and around the sort of 1700s, 1800s, you had these people starting to create actual tabletop war games work. And Luke: Mm. Matt: They had all these different rules. So they had, if your troops were far away and had a musket or something like that, for example, the the impact of the shot would degrade. But it was just all done Luke: Yeah. Matt: manually. This is this is people, so they had an umpire, essentially. Yeah, Luke: Wow. Matt: you had separated tables. So you set your guys up over there, you set your guys up over there, you have somebody who basically then transmits information between the two battlefields, and then You can only see their troops if you could actually see their troops. So Luke: Right. Matt: that what they were doing, they were, and it's this precursor to the fog of war that I think Luke: Yeah. Matt: Red Alert was one of the first games to introduce the concept of fog of war. but Luke: was like, Is that true? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's multiple. There's multiple. Hmm. Matt: Could honestly couldn't tell if it was the first game, but certainly one of the first that I recall. There may have been others, yeah. But yeah, so they're Luke: Mm. Yeah, yeah. But but Fogger War as a feature, as a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Matt: they're like even in the sort of 1800s, they're starting to think about these things. They're starting to gamify war. Yeah, Luke: That's amazing. Yeah. Matt: absolutely phenomenal. Skip ahead Luke: Yeah. Matt: a little bit further. you had to start to train people to use planes. And the only way to learn how to fly a plane, to begin with, was to get in a plane. Luke: Yeah. Matt: That was it. And it's this what's the what's amazing about this is this idea that we had we had to create simulations so Luke: Mm. Matt: that we could practice all of these things in these kind of like safe environments where you're not gonna lose lives, costs. millions of of you know pounds worth of damage and so on and so forth. so they a guy whose family have like built pianos and organs because of the the knowledge that he gained from the way the organs work in terms of the transfer of like air and energy, he built a pilot training system. I think it's called the Link, Luke: wow. Matt: the Link Simulator. The reason Luke: Mm. Matt: I love the fact that it's called the Link Simulator is because that has then That's the that's the guy's name from Zelda essentially. Luke: okay. Yeah. Matt: And as I I don't think that's why they call him Lick Beck. Tasha: So we go around smash all the pots, right? Matt: So basically the simulation is to go around s smashing pots and stealing hearts. Luke: Yes. Tasha: Yeah, smash any pots, get Luke: And you Tasha: your rupees, steal your hearts and pick up the chickens. Luke: And you can't open the door unless you got twelve hearts. Yeah. Tasha: but always pick up the chickens. Luke: But it it always pick up the chicken. It's interesting though 'cause 'cause the people that work on the runways, as an example, that that shuttle the planes around, they have to do a certain amount of hours in the the training simulator before they can do it physically. and the same as pilots and stuff, they have to do a certain amount of virtual landing and take offs and stuff before they're able to to fly the planes and like over time. There's lots of that those things and it's almost like mandatory training now as well. And I think I think they're starting to do that with driving instructors as well. They have to go through some virtual reality driving simulations to make sure that blah blah blah they know their stuff. Which is fascinating. I wonder whether it's going Matt: Hmm. Luke: to be a gating criteria for things like surgeons. Like you have to have this many hours in in pre-surgery or VR surgery. Tasha: surgery simulator. Luke: Yeah, before you can actually do it with the real world. Tasha: must have these three gold achievements on Steam. Luke: Yeah, yeah. Have you have you got your XP? Yeah. Did you collect all the hearts? Matt: That's I think I love that. that's the sort of next layer of gamification is the kind of the achievements. That little dopamine hit we're saying Yeah. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. McDonald stars. Yeah. Tasha: You just get your little Luke: I flipped five hundred burgers. I got this many virtual stars. Tasha: achievements on Steam. 26 out of 50. Luke: Yeah. Before you start your jump McDonald's, you have to do it in the virtual world. Matt: You have to play overcooked. Tasha: Do you lose your shit? Luke: Yeah, yeah, just hours. Hours and hours. Yeah. Yeah. Can you pass the McDonald's test? Matt: You have to play overcooked with it really is. Yeah. Tasha: No, no, that's... That's your couple's relationship test. Before you get married, you have to play over-cooked. Matt: And not have an argument about it. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: Yeah. Matt: there's a go on. Luke: It it's it's fascinating, the bridging of the gap between the the the sort of two worlds, if you like, the Tasha: Mmm. Luke: the practical use of entertainment or practical use of I I don't even know what you'd call it. I it probably has a name. But this this sort of this thing that you use this virtual experience to train yourself to be get better at these things and then tie that to a a a first person shooter or a car game or these things to make yourself better and stuff. The other thing I was thinking is that Do you remember America's Army? It was basically a first person shoot that was developed and they put a lot of money into it. America put a lot of money into it. And what they were doing is they were looking at the stats of the players to work out who was actually good at the game and allegedly they got in touch with the people that were good at the game and they'd say, Would you want do you want to join the army? And they're like Tasha: I don't know what they did with Forza as well, like the racing game. only done it once. Luke: I think Forza Forza was one of them as well. Yeah, there was a there is a couple of drivers that that have been in F one races and stuff since Tasha: Yeah. Luke: playing F one. And I think I think there is a famous driver. I don't wanna butcher his name, we maybe Matt, can you pull that shit up? there is a famous Matt: Yeah. Luke: driver. I think it's an F one driver that was actually that came through that route. Tasha: Yeah, there was a whole thing. There was a movie that I watched about Formula One racing or something like that Luke: Yeah. Tasha: where they had a bunch of people that were really good at the game and they decided to try and take their tactics like, okay, well we take these people who have the fastest speeds in our game, they simulate all of our tracks, Luke: Mm. Yeah. Tasha: get them in, make them actual race drivers and see if they can help us win. I mean, it worked, but it wasn't without its trials. Like they weren't actually race drivers, but they knew Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: the track so well from the games. They knew where to do the right sort of like speed up, slow down type idea. They just had to learn how to be race drivers at the same time. Yeah. Luke: Yeah. And the hand eye coordination and reactiveness. But yes, it but y it goes back to the point you made earlier about tactile feedback. That physical feedback. Now Tasha: Mm-hmm. Luke: you can get really good racing simulators. I've got a mate that's got a racing simulator that's worth more than his own car. but it kinda makes sense because he's not going to kill himself. He's in this racing simulator and it does everything. Absolutely everything. He's got the gear stick and he's got three screens set up and stuff, and it's phenomenal. He's got an amazing setup. and he says, I don't wanna buy a Subaru, I don't wanna buy this, I don't wanna go on the English roads, I wanna do this at home. Okay, cool. And he streams. And it's an amazing setup and it just makes you think if he's really good at that, he's probably a really good driver, maybe he's sharper on the road, he's gonna see things before the likes of us because we're not acute like this he is. Tasha: Excellent. Luke: Interesting. Matt: Love it. Anything else on training simulations and games outside of games before we move on? Luke: The the only other thing is is like the the forces, things like police force and ambulance and fire brigade and stuff like that. I can imagine this sort of thing would be really handy to them to to memorise in the process and the flow and the the steps to do. I I can imagine that they're either using this sort of stuff already or they're going to be using it very soon. and I think I think it's good. I think it's good. Matt: Already, actually, yeah. already using it. the police force absolutely use they they use VR as well, plus they use controllerless Luke: Right. Matt: VR. So they can you can spin up a sort of a de-escalation scenario. Tasha: Hmm Luke: Nice. Matt: like there's various police forces that are sort of starting to utilize these kinds of serious games to help train their staff. The other thing that they do, which I thought was really interesting aspect to it, is that the the debrief is done completely anonymously. So in a you after you're done with the training, Luke: Mm. Matt: you can go in and debrief completely anonymous anonymously about like what happened in the scenario and also other kinds of aspects as well. So they're gaining, they're Luke: That's cool. Matt: getting like once they've gone through this process, they get all this information from it. Luke: Yeah. Matt: Then they can then take and put back in, they can redevelop and and and tweak and change the scenarios. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Luke: Yeah, and improve on it. Yeah, they can look at usability and stuff. That's good. Matt: and that's like having that kind of feedback loop like Luke: Mm. Matt: for these kinds of training scenarios is phenomenally well thought out. it's interesting that outside of the outside of you know. People who play video games a lot having a kind of advantage in certain situations outside of that. One of the things that was notably missing from all the research that I did was how n I didn't see any games companies using simulations Luke: Mm. Matt: to help them with their training requirements. I saw no Luke: Yeah. Matt: notes of that whatsoever. Lots of games being used, lots of like Commercial video games, City Skylines, Microsoft Flight Simulator, you know, Call of Duty, Halo FPS is that kind of thing being used. Tasha: AAA game development simulator, pick your job role. Matt: It's the Game Dev story which don't get me wrong, I loved, but I would not use necessarily as a template. Luke: Game it was it was it game dev story, do you remember that? that was great. Yeah. No, no, Tasha: Game Dev story. Luke: absolutely not, yeah, yeah. Tasha: I think it'd be too stressful to make AAA game dev simulator. Luke: And just just random XX coming in and saying, I've got a new feature idea. Go and make that. Wow. And then walk off. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'll buy pizza for everyone. Yeah. Tasha: You have two months to make this, but we're over scoped. Make it work. Matt: And you have to play it in real time. Tasha: look, my developers have burnt out. no, you've taken them to another project. no, look, I have no resource. no, what do you do? I don't know. Luke: You you you could do what you could do is make make sure everyone works really, really hard and then when the game's released and does really, really well, make Tasha: I've been pizza Luke: them all redundant and Matt: Yeah. Luke: then and then take a massive bonus. to be popular in the industry. it actually happened Tasha: Pizza's too nice in this day and age. Pizza's too nice, now you just get made redundant for your good work. Matt: Let's move on to the next segment. Tasha: true or false? Luke: No. Matt: No. Tasha: you Matt: It's not. Luke: Tash, we should surprise Matt and do our own true or flows. That's that's we will do it. Tasha: Yeah, we should trifle. Matt: I would love that. I would love for you guys to surprise me with anything. That would be love. Delightful, yeah. You Luke, you turning up surprises me. Luke: Okay. Well ev and anything. Okay, wow. Wow okay. Hey I've surprised you. Wow. They're Tasha: Look, I surprised you with brain cakes. Luke: still here. They're still coming. How is this still a thing? Matt: He ha ha ha. Tasha: I surprised you with brain cakes, okay? Luke: That's true. That's true. Matt: You did surprise me with brain cakes. I don't have Tasha: There you go. Matt: a brain cake to eat, so I'm less surpr I'm more I'm surprised about the fact that you did it, but I would like to taste it. Luke: But he still doesn't believe it. Matt: Yeah. Tasha: I can't, like how am I supposed to, you were down in Brighton or London or whatever? Somewhere. Somewhere. Luke: No, he's he's Yeah. Matt: They're the same thing. Down down south. Luke: He's he's he's on top of a hill. Tasha: Down south. Matt: I am on I am on top of a hill. Yeah. Well n not quite, but nearly. Nearest dam Luke: Nearly. Matt: it. That when it floods, I'll be safe. I'll have a lovely beachside property. Tasha: See, I'm North West. Luke: Yeah. Matt: The next segment, my lovelies, is games production, viewer challenges, and what is it really? And Luke: Mm. Matt: the the the topic for today's episode is the zoom lens, the bird's eye view versus microscopic detail. How to keep your head in the clouds, milestones, quarter release, quarterly releases, and six-month roadmaps while your feet are firmly stuck in the mud, individual JIRAs, daily blockages. and minor issues. So Tasha: Mmm. Matt: Tash, Luke: Mm. Matt: Luke, thoughts. How do we manage multiple levels of views while creating video games? Tasha: How exactly? Luke: You know what's really handy now? AI. Like it and I tell you I'll tell you what I mean by that, so Matt: No wait, I had I I'm I was gonna make a little th a little sign so w whenever Luke mentions AI, I just hold up the l the AI sign. Luke: AI. But it but seriously guys, it so every day now I've got a thing that that comes up in my in my messages and it basically tells me all the things that that came up yesterday, all the things that are pressing, all the things that I called out earlier in the week and it gives me like a little crib sheet of things that I I want to be looking at. It's almost like my my personal assistance. Tasha: See, I got really nasty with Claude. Luke: S is so good. Tasha: I wanted him to be my assistant and read our messages and just give me like a rundown in the morning. he Luke: Yeah, that's what it does. Tasha: tries, he can't fucking do it. Sorry, I won't swear again. But I got really, I just got really upset with Claude. just actually, I think I said to Claude, like, you're supposed to be intelligent and you're not. Luke: Yeah, so Claude isn't the right Tasha: Claude, Claude apologized to me. Luke: Yeah, it will it I'll apologise and then you'll say do it again and it'll do the same thing and you're like No, Claude, look No. So I use Claude for for the coding side of things and the programming Tasha: Mm. Luke: side of things, the more technical side of things. ChatGPT is great for messages and all that sort of stuff. Whereas Tasha: Yes. Luke: Copilot, Microsoft Copilot's really good at the monotonous look across all my notes and tell me where it all comes together. Tasha: Hmm. Well, I tried to do it via Power Automate, but it just kept coming up to earth because Claude didn't know what it was doing. So Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: I got really annoyed with Claude, like, you're supposed to be intelligent and you're not. Stop messing me around. Give me actual direct instructions. Stop messing me over. And Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: Claude just apologized profusely and that was it. Luke: But the real future is something called OpenClaw or something similar to that. Whereas when you ask OpenClaw, can you do this thing for me, it listens to what you want it to do and it finds the right agent for the right job. So for instance, if I'm saying, can you help me redraft this email? OpenClaw, whatever, I call it Steve. I call my dude Steve. My dude. it then it then sees that I'm talking about email, it uses ChatGPT for email. If I say help me program this website Tasha: Thank Luke: or do this thing in the app, it'll use Claude. And if I'm doing something more mundane and normal it used Copilot or it use Llama or other LLMs are available. But if we go back before AI, yeah. It's yeah, Tasha: But anyway, to help us, to the point that's relevant. Luke: it's it's about using your calendar. It's about using your own calendar and trying to box your own time in, trying to find methods that that keep you honest and keep you on track. I think Tasha: Hmm. Luke: being part of the daily stand ups and talking about the things you're working on is really important as a PM or a project manager. Up sorry, as a producer, because if you're just the person that's that's driving the stand up and asking other people for their inputs, no one's gonna know what you're up to and you're not gonna keep yourself honest to the things that you're doing as well. So I think it's really important that you call those things out as well. And then if you're in multiple teams like me and Tash in the past, I I've been in one project, she's been another, we've had Scrum of Scrums where we talk to each other about our projects and there's a way to link up and see how honest we are with ourselves, and that's a really good way of doing it. It it is Tasha: Yeah. Luke: tricky to sometimes go from the weeds to going into the I don't know the trees and then maybe going into the clouds and you do have to be dipping and out and you can't stay at the low level because if you stay too low level, you end up being a micromanager and that doesn't last and you just break teams. so you've got to find that right level to get to and then keep going in and out where needed. And then if there's a risk or something, you go right to the micro and you say, Okay guys, what what Tasha: Yeah. Luke: is the problem here? What's the challenge? What are we looking at? How can I help? Explain that to me. Explain this to me. Did you just say something similar to him or her? Can we just talk about that a bit more? And just really sort of being that sort of coach, if you like, or that that steward to make sure information's coming out. Matt: But how do you do that? How do you make sure that you are remembering to get in there, you know, with the teams, looking at the detail, looking at things that are actually happening on a moment to moment basis, but also take that step back. Tasha: I think there's a few things at play there. The experience being the key one. So both Luke and I have a lot of experience. We know where we can dip in and out. So for instance, if I have features that I am directly driving, I'll be far more involved in the day to day, how to break it down, where it's kind of going in scope, what I need to be on top of. And those will be my priorities on specific times. If I'm stepping back, doing my daily stand-ups with the teams that I'm running to see how they're getting on. Do you have blockers? Do you need my assistance? Are you good? Fine, sweet, come and talk to me if you need me. And then further back in the layers, like right, as a pillar as whole, these are the features that everyone's working on. This is how it should look and this is how it should run down. But then if someone plays something about my feature, I immediately go back in to check it and see where it is. Now a lot of that is just experience, so it becomes second nature for us because we're able to do this. But if you're just starting out, then... having your daily ceremonies, so your stand ups, your backlog refinement, depending on whether you're doing Kanban or whether you're doing sprints. So it'll either be a retrospective and sprint planning or it'll be a backlog refinement. However often you want to do it will keep you on top of that. I go for notepads like there's no tomorrow. So I have checklists that tell me I need to do this. I speak to this person. I need to do that. This feature is in trouble. The scope is here. Speak about this with this person. And I have a checklist I go for. That's how I do it, but I'm a little bit more, I guess, old school because I quite like my physical checklist that I can just scratch off and say I've done stuff. Or what I've now done is I've now got two or three whiteboards around me that I have loads of stuff scribbled on. Luke: Mm. Matt: I live in a similar kind of world to Tash. Actually, like a lot of the time I'm just sort of like filling notebooks Tasha: Hmm. Matt: full of information. But my other the other sort of part of me is the same sort of like world as Luke, where I actually use Google Gemini like for tracking Tasha: Mm-hmm. Matt: much longer term projects, Luke: Mm. Tasha: Yeah. Matt: and also being able to kind of like then create smaller action items that sort of lead me all all the way up to those. The the Tasha: Mm. Matt: kind of one of the things for for me, and this this is this is not a tool that I've ever been able to implement, but a tool that I I was learning about was flight levels. Have you heard of this? Tasha: No. Luke: Nee, maar k dank je nog. Matt: It's it's great. And it's it's not it's not specifically for projects. it's really more of a kind of a company wide sort of framework to make sure that communication is going correctly at the top level and then like down to the individual contributor level. So the flight level is very broadly speaking, what you do is you have the top level ideals of like where is the company going, what is the vision, what is it that we're achie trying to achieve. Luke: Yeah. Matt: then you've got the middle layer, which is the sort of like the management layer, the people that are coordinating all the different kinds of tasks. So that's another layer of communication right there. And then the individual contributor layer as well. So that's like the real specific things. So it's starting to think about what it is that you are doing at that very, very high level. So that that very, very high level might be the game pillars. Then the next layer down is what what milestones have we got, what needs to be done to make sure that we're hitting those milestones. And then the layer down from that is like the the really specific individual action items that are coming up. Like so how do we get this particular asset? Yeah, exactly. Tasha: Yeah. Achieve X, Y, Z. Yeah. Matt: And so it's trying to layer it up that way. And that while I was I'm very sad that I never got to implement that at the place that I was working at the time, Luke: Mm. Matt: always felt like a really good way of being able to make sure that everybody had that information to hand because it's in the in the the very ideal OKR style world in which this kind of thing might live, it's all transparent as well. somebody used this phrase earlier which I thought was brilliant tribal knowledge. You don't have Luke: Mm. Tasha: you Matt: tribal knowledge You're taking all of that and you're putting it out there for everybody to see so that everybody's really keenly aware of what it is that every single layer is trying to achieve and absolutely Tasha: Yeah. Matt: do. Luke: Yeah, I'm a big fan of using things like pillars as well. So if you have some pinners that a project uses and then Yeah. Tasha: I love game pillars. They can remind you of what you're trying to get to as well. Luke: And and as so it's funny 'cause there's a few processes that I've put in place over the years. And as soon as you put some of these processes in place, you think, is this one gonna kick off? Is this one gonna resonate? Tasha: Hmm. Luke: And and there was once when when I I walked into a meeting late. Sorry, I was late. And and the team were talking about design. I just I just walked in the room and sat at the so sorry guys I'm late, carry on. And they and they carried on talking and they were talking about a design. They talk and they said, But John, where does this where does this fit in with the pillars? They brought up a pillar on the screen. I was like, This is brilliant. They're talking about something I introduced, something I encouraged and and then I just gave them the backbone. I didn't tell them what the pillars were, I just gave them the process around it and they put those things in and it all sort of resonated on its own. So it's mm Matt: So I know what game pillars are, but for anybody that's listening that doesn't, if somebody could explain game pillars. Tasha: Game pillars are the core fundamentals of what you're trying to achieve with your game. So, you know, for instance, one of the games that worked in Emporium, the core fundamentals was keep it fun, keep it lighthearted. It's inclusive for everyone. Want it to be integrated with Twitch, want to be able to make use of that. So there's like a whole load of things about inclusivity, keeping it light, keeping it fun, not getting too serious. and just generally be an inclusive game. Those were our core funds. So we were able to actually say, okay, this is what we're creating. It actually helped to shape what we created. I think we achieved that quite well because of the core pillars. So a lot of game development studios should have their game pillars, but what tends to happen is that the game pillars, especially in bigger AAA studios, become so complex or so over thought and so full of information that people forget. Luke: Penninated. Tasha: Yeah, they forget what their pillars are and just create it because this is what we're trying to achieve. So we have to do this, this and this. You're like, no. Luke: Yeah. They they use it as a a bias. It's like a cognitive bias. They're they're they put them together so you agree with them, as opposed to what Tasha: Mm-hmm. Luke: do we all think our pillars are, how do we all achieve this? Tasha: Mm-hmm. Luke: What what do we want to be true? And then say that's that's our pillars. Let's let's anchor to that. Matt: We are as a as a species we're incredibly good at solving problems by adding things and very, Tasha: Mm-hmm. Matt: very bad at solving problems by taking things away. Luke: Mm. Matt: it's you know it's not just game pillars, like it's it's it's kind of like every every sort of challenge that you come up against. Everybody wants to and it's that thing, like that classic line of like, I want to add value. And you're like, sometimes Luke: Yeah. Matt: you can add value by taking things away. Luke: I'm I'm a big I'm a big fan of the you have to you have to polish a diamond before or you have to break a diamond before you polish it. I I like that phrase. You have Tasha: polish that diamond before you break it. Luke: to break the diamond before you polish it. Matt: You can't make an omelet without breaking diamonds. Luke: You have to you have to cut the diamond, you have to polish it, and then it's yeah. Matt: First you first you cut the polish, then you break the diamond. Luke: Alright, cut that. First you cut the diamond, then you polish it. You can't you can't Matt: Okay. Luke: polish a turd. Tasha: And then you have two engagement rings. Luke: Yep. But yeah, pill pillars pillars are Matt: That's big of me. Luke: a great sort of anchor to to work towards as a team or a project. And it gets people away from the you said this, your documents this, your feelings this, your emotions that. Matt, you just want that because it's your thing. It's kind of like, no, these are our pillars that we've all agreed to. Doesn't match that. Okay, cool. And it's it's that the pillars doesn't have personality. The pillars don't have a sex, an education, a a religion. It doesn't have any of those things. It just it it just is. The pillars are the pillars. There's no Matt: is there a way of having pillars so that that's your you know big hairy ass goal? Is like the game is going to be fun and lighthearted and inclusive, right? Pillar, right? For example, Tash. Is there then a sort of like way like to sort of build at mini pillars almost, I suppose, like yeah, Luke: Sub pillars. Mm-hmm. Matt: so that you can kind of go like that's how you start to get a little bit more granularity, I guess, is kind of what I was thinking with this. Tasha: Yeah. Yeah. You do start to tend to develop like your granularity, like what makes it fun? What are we aiming for? Luke: Yeah, define fun Tash. Yeah. Tasha: What is your, what are you wanting to achieve? And it was, well, what platforms are we putting on that will help dictate what we're making because Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: the change is what we can do. How long do you want your game play to run for? Do you want it to run for 40 plus hours or do you want it to run for an hour? gives you a lot more freedom in what you can develop because if you're only developing something small, you can get a lot more creative with it because Luke: Yep. Tasha: you can spend more time on it. Luke: Yeah, and and fun means something very different to probably all three of us. So you've Tasha: Yeah. Luke: got to find something that matches the whole team and say, This is what we define as fun. Tasha: Mm. Luke: Ninety percent of us agreed. Ten percent. Sorry, mate. Tasha: Yeah, but if they don't agree with our version of fun, they'll find another company that does have their version of fun in their game. And that is the beauty of that. Matt: But if they don't agree with my version of fun, then they're just wrong. Tasha: Sure. Luke: Could be. Matt: Good. Tasha: Sure, sure. Matt: Agreed. how do you maintain these separate views as a producer and not go mental? Tasha: I I don't know, you kind of can't a lot of time, the blinds become really blurred. Luke: And you shouldn't. Yeah, you shouldn't. So there's Matt: Really? Luke: a healthy level. Yeah, there's a healthy level. So for instance, a a producer wants to to to ship a a project on time, quality, scope. Whereas Tasha: Hmm. Luke: a design director wants to change everything to make it better constantly and then doesn't often have a fixed mindset on where we want to finish things or budget things. And then you have art art directors that want to make it really polished and and beautiful and want to keep up with the latest trends and stuff. doesn't necessarily care about gameplay. So you're in the experience that looks amazing, but the gameplay shit. They don't care. So it's a majority of them don't care. So you've got to find a way to have the art director and the design director arguing to like healthily. And then you've got the project manager or the producer saying, these things are great guys, but we've got this budget, we've got this scope, we've got this team. Tell me what we can do versus what you're talking about. So that that disagreement level is the whole the classic yin yang, you need that To make a successful Tasha: Hmm. Luke: game. And if you don't have that, it's gonna be one or the other. Or it's gonna be doomukum and it's just not gonna be anything, it's just gonna be lasting forever. Tasha: Yeah. Luke: so Tasha: It's one of those things like there's no, I don't know if I've got enough to say that this is exactly what the answer is. It's more of a, you kind of learn from experience how you float and it just becomes a bit second nature, but the lines are really blurred. And sometimes you'll probably do it without thinking. It just becomes that way. You know that, or I've just started doing things and like, whatever happens. Luke: It aligns with with with Scrum as well. Scrum Scrum has the the product owner and the Scrum Master d deliberately Tasha: Mm. Luke: at loggerheads. Tasha: No, sometimes the Scrubmaster is your product owner, your project manager. Luke: Well well I mean by design. I mean by design. By scrum dot org the book. Tasha: yeah, but in games, it's often your producer is the scrum master as well. Luke: Yeah, that's that's broken. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tasha: But it happens all the time. We are scrum masters. Luke: Yeah. Yes. Tasha: So the lines are blurred, Matt: Any other top tips any other top tips for people who are trying to figure out how to look at a the production of a game from different angles or different heights? Tasha: think some of the advice I gave recently is to take a step back, breathe, realize that it's not as big as you think it is. Break it down into its relevant sections. Sit down with what you've Luke: Mm. Tasha: got and what you're seeing. Break it down into its relevant sections. If you have to just line it up, figure out what you need to do for each and then just slowly start to action that. If you are feeling overwhelmed with everything, This happens to all of us. Take your step back. However you compartmentalize, do that, whether it's in a notebook, on Jira, or on a whiteboard, do it, and then just start to move the pieces forward. Luke: Gotta chip it away. The other thing I find useful is is work back schedules as well. So looking at your end date, working your way backwards. And then from that Tasha: Mm. That was funny. Luke: you can work you work out what we need to be doing this sprint versus next sprint. And then shit, we've not got enough resource or we we should be here. Where are we? Let's do we need to cut back features? Okay, I need to escalate these things because according to the work back schedule, this is where we are and this is where should be. and then you could look you call in all the different disciplines to chat through that as well and and Communicate, communicate, communicate, talking, talking, talking, like finding the ways to to stop people bitching about each other on the side and stuff and bringing them together and say, like, we need to talk about these things together, 'cause ultimately we're making one project here, we're making one entertainment experience game, project delivery, website, whatever it is, we're working together on these things to make something fantastic. And if we don't communicate, we don't get on well, then it's gonna be shit. Matt: On that bombshell, lovely stuff. Thank you, Luke. And Tash. Let's move on to the next segment. Anyone like to guess what it is? Luke: True of flies. Matt: That's right, it's true or flays. Three games. Two are real. One is fake. Luke: How do I turn my camera off? Tasha: Yay. Yeah. Matt: And we've got a bit of a god theme this week for reasons I can't remember. Are you ready? Luke: No. Tasha: Nah, but sure, why not. Matt: Great, let's let's begin. Game number one. Great God Grove. The world is ending and the gods are squabbling. Suck up and launch dialogue in a world of puzzles, puppets, and weird gods, or the rift will consume us all. Game number two Supreme Being Simulator. For the moment life starts to think for itself, it starts to think that someone else is responsible for all this nonsense. And that someone is you. Called into being by barely sentient creatures, but you are you a benevolent god or a destructive deity. You must choose. Guide your civilization on the path to righteousness or damn them to internal subservience. Game number three Shadows of Forbidden Gods. Take on the role of a dark elder god and lead your agents to bring about an apocalypse in a fantasy world. Work in the shadows, avoiding the heroes who will try to stop you as you bring about plague and famine, ice age and volcanic destruction, madness and never-ending night. Game number three. Game number one, Great God Grove. Game number two, Supreme Being Simulator. And game number three, Shadows of Forbidden Gods. Tasha: Yay. Luke: I I was chatting to my my daughter earlier and she's she's playing this game and I and she says, Dad, look at this game I'm playing and I looked over what she's playing and she's in this reception room and these creatures come up to the window and they have to they they ask for like ID, they have to have to be verified and you have to you have to click a camera to see if this look a certain way, then you have to give them ID, then you have do this. You're basically virtual reality reception worker and that that's what she was doing. I thought it was really interesting. Yeah. That's a real game. Yeah. Tasha: So that's a real game. Okay, we Matt: Yes, Tasha: know that one. Matt: that is, but that's not one of the three that so yeah. Luke: I know, I just wanted to go on f on a tangent. Tasha: I think Matt: All right. Tasha: the last one is fake. It is find a fake game, right? Matt: It is find the fake the Still Luke: I love the main task, forget the rules. Matt: don't know the rules. we're looking for the it's we're looking for the pig at the disco. Which of these Luke: Is it flace or true? Pick at the disco, well, check the stats. Matt: games is the pig at the disco? yeah, so Luke: Which of these is the real one? The wrong one. Matt: no, we're looking for the fake one. Luke: Yes. Matt: We're looking for the one. Tasha: Yeah, I think it's the third one. Luke: Yeah, no I'm with Tash, wherever that was. Yep. Yeah. Matt: Shadows of the Forbidden Gods take on the role Tasha: Yeah. Matt: of a dark elder god. No, it's Subr Supreme Luke: there's a shock. Matt: Being Simul It's Supreme Being Simulator. Luke: I reckon do you know what I reckon Tash, I reckon every single time Matt's one he's actually been lying cause he knows we won't Tasha: I think so. Luke: bother googling it. I've got the stats. I've got the stats. Matt: I've got the I'll output the stats. yeah, I do. I have got the stats. Tasha: I understand. I understand. Matt: I've got it all like logged now that I've gone through all the transcripts. So yeah. I'd Luke: Have you? It's good. Matt: I mean it if I yeah, right. Luke: We feel sorry for you, that's why we let you in. Me and Tash actually know the answers. We just know it feeds your ego if we keep letting you win. Matt: It's true, it does a little bit. Luke: Yeah, see, there we go. I like the way he whispered that. It's it's true. It's true, it does a little bit. Give me something. I need this one thing. Yeah. Damn you water hell. Tasha: I'm that we're, I like that. Yeah. Matt: There's a little bit. Give me something. I need this. Luke, I need this. Ha ha ha. I need just give me this one fucking thing. yeah. Tasha: We gave you plenty. We give you plenty. Matt: Great God Grove is a real game. Shadows of the Forbidden Gods is also a real game. And they they both look pretty cool. Luke: And if you've worked on any of these games, please leave a comment in the in the comment section, please. We'd like to know. Matt: Please do get in touch. Tasha: you watch her stuff. Matt: all right. that is everything that we have for this particular episode. All that is left to do is thank Luke, Tims, Tash, Nathani, and you, our glorious listener, for tuning in. Feel free to reach out to us at gameprodpod at proton.me. We'll be back next time with more hot topics, more production challenges, more true or flays, and Luke: No. Matt: much, much more. See you next time. Bye. Luke: Pi Tasha: Bye! So what's the stat for how many times you said my surname wrong? Luke: Hey That's a great question. Matt: So great great question. I would say it's Luke: Ninety percent Matt: easily about ten plus times of the because it's Tasha: Hahaha! Luke: Uh-huh. Matt: only in the last two or three episodes where I've started pronouncing it correctly. What can I tell you? Yeah. Tasha: you Luke: Funny. I like why Tash looked impressed when he got it right. huh. Matt: What can I say? I'm not very good at stuff. I'm not very Luke: Not very good. Yeah. Matt: good at anything. That's why I went into management. Some of if Luke: huh. Matt: I've d I've no discernible skills or traits. Management track for you, my boy. Lovely lovely stuff. Luke: That'll do. That'll do, Pig.