Matt: Well, let's just take a step back for a second because I'd like to define what we mean by these different terms. So over time is one thing. Crunch is, as you referenced earlier, Luke, crunch is an entirely different thing. It's almost like.

Tasha: .

Luke: Mm.

Matt: like you've almost got this kind of like spectrum of, okay, I put in an extra hour or two one day this week because I was in a flow state. I absolutely, you know, and I just felt like I was so close to the solution that it was worth me putting in a little extra time. You know what? I rocked up the next day, like a couple of hours later, just to kind of compensate for it. Like that's, that's a very healthy balance. But then you've got all the way up to and including, ⁓

Luke: Mm. Yeah. That's healthy. Mm-hmm.

Matt: essentially what boils down to a sort of enforced months long 60 to 100 hour weeks to try to like you were saying Tash hit some kind of deadline, whatever it may be. So there's always going to be nuance. There's always going to be times where you can look at it objectively and go.

Luke: Mm.

Matt: Is this needed? this important? ultimately, is this short lived? And there's going to be genuine cultural issues that are, if not introduced by leadership, are absolutely allowed by the leadership to manifest. So where's the line?

Luke: Mm. Mm. Yeah, it's a thin line and it's tricky line. And like I say, it comes down to that level of healthiness of working a few hours over time here and there to hit deadlines, working together, like everyone's in it together type feeling. like that, teams typically like that. Like we're all working towards a big release together and it's a big push. And I think that's healthy. And some of the greatest games out there have had a ⁓ heavy push at the end, but not...

Tasha: Yeah.

Luke: Like the crunch, it used to be in the 2000s and stuff where it was like, everyone's working till midnight and we're going to keep working overtime until yada yada. And that was very unhealthy. And me and you went through that map back in the day with testing as well. No doubt. Tash has been through it as well. Yeah. Crunch. Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah.

Matt: We did, but...

Tasha: overtime and crunch? No, I refuse. No, I 100 % refuse. I don't know. I think at one point there was one of my previous studios, ⁓ long, long time ago, said that you need to come in a Saturday because the team are doing overtime. was like, for what? And it was like, is the only time I ever done it because it was a contractor and he needed the cash. After that, nah, no.

Luke: Mm. Mm.

Tasha: I have a life outside of this. have friends I want to go see. I have plans. have training. have competitions. And trust me, you want me to go do my training for my mental health and your safety.

Luke: Hmm.

Tasha: do not interfere with my personal life, my working hours and my working hours, if it doesn't get done between then it can either way tomorrow we have to reassess scope during working hours, 100 % no. And I don't encourage my team to do it either, like do your work, go home, if I need to reduce the scope, they need to reduce the scope for me to consider what's going into the release and actually assess whether this is needed or 100 % like that.

Matt: Mm.

Luke: Yeah, it's almost like it was expected.