Matt: All right. Fortune, this is astrology.com forward slash compatibility forward slash fortune cookie dot HTML. ⁓ Seems legit. ⁓ Okay, crack open your cookie. Be the change you to see the world. ⁓ Tasha: Hmm. Absolutely. What seeing Luke appear on time for once. How ⁓ we make that? How do we be that change? Do we turn up late and then that makes look early? Matt: I'd like to see Luke appear at all. Yeah. later than him. Yeah, guess it would make, if we turn up late, does that make him on time? I don't know. Tasha: Does it? Is that how that works? You Matt: I'll text him. He was last seen today on WhatsApp at 1326. I assume he's fallen asleep. So far, it's been forgotten, fallen asleep, no reason given, and then tonight it's like... Forgotten. Tasha: Again, again, yes. Thank Forgotten. Forgotten, fallen asleep. What? Dead. The name of tonight's episode, ladies and gentlemen, is Forgotten, fallen asleep, dead? Question mark. Matt: Dead. Next one is dead. Dad? Yeah, forgotten. Fallen asleep. Dead? Dead? Tasha: Dead? Dead? Dead? Do you know what? I'm not even at the point where I'm going to question it anymore. I just assume he's gone to the sofa and died. Matt: Yeah, yeah, and it's no judgment on my part, genuinely. I'm not even annoyed. I'm just concerned. I've Tasha: disappointed. Matt: I see. right. Well, okay. So like industry wise, like what is something that you've been thinking about recently? Tasha: Mmm. Oh, how tough it is. Right, like so recently, so when I got made redundant from Sumo, this must have been about a year and a half ago, something like that. But yeah, it be about a year and a half, think. So I got made redundant from Sumo, that, whether that time period was ago. And that was the first wave. And I think that's one of my colleagues that got made redundant with me and we sat there, we literally did go. give it three, four months, there's going to be another wave. Granted, it about six months, but then came a second wave of redundancies. All right, cool. Well, that came along with other redundancies in the industry. And then again, they've done redundancies, again, hitting the bigger players, so like your technical director is never find that. So the industry is getting tougher. People are just getting made more more redundant. And now that that's happening, Because it's so tough out there, people are lowballing on salaries, expecting you to do the job of your senior, your director, all the normal responsibilities, everything that you do that you're pro for, that you are known for. They fully expect you to do that and more, but for half your normal salary. And they can offer that because they know that you're going to get nothing else through or if you do, it's going to be really hard because not only is it hard to get jobs in an industry that's now going through redundancy and layoffs and is being very cautious with their hiring. But they now use AI to read for your CV. So you don't even get seen by a real human until after the AI. And then you're like, well, how do I get past AI? Do I have to get my AI to write my CV for me to get me a job? Because some things are you can't really measure. Like, probably I'm going to make all these infrastructure changes. And I can tell that people make progress. But how am I supposed to? give you that percentage, ⁓ I increased their productivity by 80%. I'm like, I don't know, I done this years ago. Matt: Do you think it's on the part of the low-balling of the salary? Do you think that that is intentional or do you think that the studios are suffering in exactly the same way, that there's not enough money coming into the studio? Okay. Tasha: Yeah. Hmm, no, I think people are stingy now. I think they're hoarding their finances, wanting great talent for less cash. And they know they can offer that because you can try it. You can fire out over 100, 200, 300 CV applications and you'll maybe hear back from what? Two, three. So they know they've got you backed in a corner. The industry has you backed into a corner. So unless you want to consider options elsewhere and you're happy with that, then they can bull ball you as much as they want and they'll be okay for it because there's there's no more potential employees than there is employers. Matt: Yeah, so your classic supply and demand issue, you know, to a certain extent, whatever the kind of thinking is behind it. Tasha: Mm-hmm. Matt: Plus they have this layer now of, like you said, AI. So I have to create using AI, a CV that will get past your AI. So like what like and I was working with someone the other day and they raised this as a genuine concern. It's like there's a way that I could kind of they were talking about like the fact that their inbox is it's too much, there's too much volume ⁓ for them to comfortably deal with it. And they said, like, one of the things that they were thinking about is like, well, I could get an ⁓ AI tool to go through my inbox and then, like, either reply for me or suggest replies. And so my inbox is kind of talking to their inbox without us kind of having to really interact. And it's that kind of idea. At this point, Tasha: Yeah. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Matt: this point, you just take AI out of the equation and get people talking to each other again. ⁓ Tasha: would be nice, right? So like, we, when we write a series, yeah, okay, we're not perfect, right? We're trying to get through the waffle of what we do. We're trying to describe what we do accurately, dress it up, sell it, but also make sure we're hitting all the key points and make it human. That's the whole point is where you're human. But again, AI to write all the care about is numbers and stats. And that's all that's good for us. When it goes from you to an AI, the bots don't really look for the humanity and what you're doing. You could be doing some great things. You're not going to get seen because AI's like, I don't see numbers here. Bye. It's keywords, they're trained on keywords, numbers and stats. They're not trained on how to actually read a CV. But actually, this person's got the skills for the job that we need. You want to talk about someone with driving force that can make positive change to team direction, functionality, motivation, how they approach work. You can't measure that in stats. Or maybe you can. I'm just really shit at that measuring of stats because I hate stats. seeing the potential for that's like I technically I think one of my old jobs I produced myself out of a job because the new teams function so solidly they know how to plan their work two three months ahead of time they can chart it they can track it they can time box it they've got their sprints sorted to the point where they're like when I left and I asked to come back they were like we actually don't need a producer anymore we've got this lekt like shit I've produced myself of a job I mean, it's a great compliment, I'm so proud, but... Can I come back? No. Matt: Yeah. One of the core tenets of genuinely good leadership, or good management even, is to find, ⁓ hello. Thank you very much. I've just been brought a lovely hot cup of mint tea by my delightful wife. I know, right? I am very lucky. And also some chocolate. I know. No. It's mine. Tasha: Mm. Ooh. ⁓ You are a very lucky. ⁓ what? Can I have the chocolate, please? ⁓ Matt: Also, you are about 250 miles away. Tasha: I want chocolate. That shouldn't stop you, Matt. You should care enough. Exactly. I mean, I wouldn't even trust it with the Royal Mail though. They'll probably just steal it out of the envelope. Matt: OK, where the will is away, right? think it might melt by the time it got there. I don't know, but it's also possible that they would steal it. Although I don't know how they would know there's chocolate inside and like it had melted. Tasha: Nah. Do you know what? It's so bad. I had coursework. It was a chunky envelope. was proper coursework. was just selling optics. Sent it off to my tutor to come back and get marked. So it got marked. But it hadn't come back to me, sell it, it shut. Hadn't gone through and marked it. Somebody thought there was cash in that envelope, ripped it open, was sadly disappointed to see my physics homework. Matt: Yeah. ⁓ The ⁓ mark of a genuinely good manager or a good leader in some respect is to make themselves redundant, is to make it so that you lift them out of the team and the team just sort of keeps going. Tasha: Mmm. Yeah, absolutely. They've made some great changes. They've put the right person in ahead of code. She's been running forward. She's got the team growing. They know how to run in sprints. They can go through and forward. They know how to do dependencies. It's great. I'm so glad. I'm so proud. I would also kind of like the job that. Matt: Can you pitch a kind of like, so you don't need the producer anymore. Hey, but how about I come and do something? Tasha: I asked that. They were fine. The vibe was like really positive, right? The reception was really, they'd all want to work with me again. They'd all be happy to. They just don't know where I'd fit in. like, just, can I just come and sit and be pretty? That'd be nice. Matt: If I ever set up my own studio, will absolutely, worst case scenario, give you a job where you can just come hang out. Tasha: ⁓ mate, I'd be so good at that motivational shit. Matt: Well, not exactly. Tasha: If you need some like more visual bullying for a day. Matt: ⁓ Motivational bullying. OK, fair enough. Good to know, man. All right. There's another potential ⁓ episode titled motivational bullying. Tasha: It's not going to be friendly between us. What you talking about? This podcast taught you nothing, No, Billy. ⁓ that is a thing as well though, to be fair, once you're in a group of like the three of us, you riff off each other and there is that gentle playfulness of like bullying, that's the whole point of what friendships are. So motivational bullying. Matt: Motivational ⁓ Tasha: You're fuzzy. Matt: You're fuzzy. Tasha: You are fuzzy. You're fuzzy. And now the potential name for the episode is, you're fuzzy. Matt: You're fuzzy. You're fuzzy. Right. You're fuzzy. Yeah, the thing I was going to talk about there about CVs is that creation of a CV is genuinely a skill set, right? But being able to create a nice CV that will pass muster even with a human is not the same as being able to do that job. Why do we need people to be able to create a CV to get a job that is not about them creating CVs? It is about them creating code, art, audio, Gantt charts, I guess. Well, I don't know what producers do. So Gantt charts, is it? There you go. Tasha: get charged roadmaps, communication, facilitation, the human element and I don't know. Matt: Someone is working, someone working at the moment, but it like, was like, what do you producers do anyway? She's like, we just make people hold hands and talk. Tasha: ⁓ she's the nice producer side. ⁓ Matt: She's a nice producer. She's more Luke's style of production, not your motivational bullying style of production. So why? What? Nice producers? They do. Somewhere. Some studios apparently want a nicer, more positive culture. Tasha: Yeah, yeah. That means suppose they exist somewhere. Yeah, suppose the warm fuzzy one's got to produce somewhere. Okay. Look, just because I don't do fluffy man, all right? Matt: So what is the point of a CV if I think that there's a better way, as we move into the future, there's got to be a better way for people to connect in terms of jobs. Tasha: So here's the thing I've been thinking like we still have to fill in a CV, we to write a CV, right? And then I'm thinking, surely there's a platform that we use that we track our job history on, right? As if that platform exists that tells you where you worked and the times and what you did and what your goal was in the companies. I'm oh wait, shit, that does exist as LinkedIn. So why can't we just say, hey, I'm a senior producer, here's my LinkedIn portfolio, I'd love to chat about the role. Matt: ⁓ it does exist. Thank Tasha: Let me know and just give them a link to your profile. Why do I then have to go out, fill out your form, right, multiple times, even if I did say use my LinkedIn portfolio, always gets it wrong. So I don't have to sit and manually load it, link it to my profile and then provide you with a written CV to prove who I am and that I'm good at what I do. Why do we have to jump to someone? Why can't you just look at my LinkedIn or just look at my CV and go? Matt: Yeah. Tasha: and see that I'm qualified. Talk to me as an actual person before you decide I'm not a fit for the role. Matt: Yeah, it's it's you know, it's it's got to be this. It's got to be a better way of doing it. I don't think LinkedIn is the answer any more than a CV is the answer. You still have to create a kind of nice CV on LinkedIn. It's maybe a little bit easier because it's kind of like it's a fairly standard thing rather than a CV, which you can kind of format any which way you want. That doesn't, you know, so. Tasha: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matt: But there's got to be an answer that isn't sitting down in front of a word processor, like dating myself a little bit, just a little typewriter. But I mean, I know that there's a tech company at the moment that are, you know, there's more than one tech company at the moment that are experimenting with a job site that's a little bit more like TikTok, Instagram style thing. Like where, you know, and I don't know if that will gain traction. I don't know if that will sort of work in the short term, maybe in the medium to long term, because younger people do not necessarily want to do the same things, the things the same way that my generation and all the generations do. Tasha: Yeah. Mm. Mmm. Same, yeah. I know, right? What the fuck? Matt: It's their fault. You know, it's one of those it's one of those frustrating conversations because I don't know what the answer is. I just know that there has to be a better way through this. Tasha: No. I think using AI is definitely not the way forward to read for CVs, definitely not. I think you can read for someone's CV and you can see senior producer got 10 years of experience, AAA studios, know the industry tools like JIRA, project management, can make any kind of facilitation. And you'll know the minute you get them into a call, you'll know if they're worth their salt or if they're not. You just have to talk to the person. So all that a CV should be to say is, I am a senior producer, I've got this skill set, I'm familiar with these tools, these are the companies I've worked with, this is for how long, these are the people that rate me, give me a chat to me, just chat to me. And that's it. Now I appreciate like for what used to be case of like for every one job there was like over 200 applicants and you have to filter them out somehow. But using AI to do it, you're gonna get like, like oh so much good talent now, especially now with the amount of layoffs that everyone's going through. you're going to shoot yourself in the fit and loose with really good talent. So, because not everyone knows how to write a CV. Matt: Yeah, I've been chatting with some people recently ⁓ and they're super smart, super switched on, but they admit that writing a CV is not particularly the stuff that I am good at doing. So I got to get good at doing that. And I'm not even that comfortable in interviews. So I guess I've got to get good at that. And these are incredibly talented, incredibly driven, incredibly engaged people. Tasha: Mm. Yep. Yep, exactly. Matt: that these processes seem to naturally filter out. ⁓ Yeah, and it's just a damn shame. Yeah. Tasha: Hmm. Another thing was worse, if you actually managed to get your CV through and you get to, and we're putting you in for an interview, to get ghosted, get ghosted and never heard again. You can chase them for updates. You can ask them, never reply. And then when they do eventually reply, like, ⁓ you're still on the list. Never reply. Never reply. It's like, do you know how rude that is? Do you know that you are representing your company and this is not the way to do that? Matt: Thanks. Yeah. Tasha: Like there are some companies where the recruiters have been so blasé that I'm like, do you know what? I really don't ever want to work with you because this is how you treat people at the interview stage. What do you treat your employees like? I mean, that's disgusting. So. Matt: Yeah. I love this. What the actual fuck? Tasha: ⁓ fuck. Hi, Luke Did you fall asleep? Matt: Hi, Lurd. Luke: Aye. No, this time we were in a mild panic. Can hear me? Matt: Are you even there? We can't hear you or see you. Tasha: Yeah, we can see you and hear you. I can. Well, you're having problems anyway. You are the technical glitch today. You are the technical glitch today. All right. You're fuzzy. Luke: Can you hear me? ⁓ Matt: I can't see him. I can't. You're having problems. Luke: Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. Matt: All right, you're fuzzy. I'm going to just I'm going to reboot, see if that helps. Hang on. Tasha: Bye bye. Hi Luke. Luke: Hello, yeah, we had a panic attack. Maya's submitting a story for like a story competition and she wrote a really good story about three months ago. And we assumed we knew where it was and all of a sudden no one knew where it was and I pretty much emptied the loft and got rid of loads of stuff and made it like a job to sort out the loft. And then almost gave up and I was like, hang on. Tasha: Thank Mm-hmm. Matt: Hmm Tasha: Mm. Luke: When I was doing the bathroom, I moved a load of stuff. ⁓ what's that in the corner? Literally just pushed into the corners of bag full of a year, six books. So, and it's there and she's now typing it up. So it will be forever digital. Yeah. She's got to get it down to 500 words and it's like four pages. It's not gonna happen. Tasha: I'm glad you got it. That's more than 500 words. Yeah. ⁓ Luke: Yeah, she said, can I cheat and use chat GPT? And I went, no, I'll do it. Don't worry. Tasha: We've just been talking about the use of AI in CV so ⁓ maybe not encourage her to write with chat GPT. ⁓ Luke: Have you? Yeah. Yeah. Matt: Welcome. ⁓ Luke: Hello, sorry I'm late people. Tasha: Welcome. The title of today's episode is Fallen Asleep, Forgotten or Dead? Or You're Fuzzy? Luke: Yeah, Luke's late, he's asleep. Matt: ⁓ Yeah. Well, now that you're because we're going to we're to we're free forming this and so far it's actually been pretty reasonable, but I'm glad that you're here cause you're here to go through the proverbial. Luke: fuzzy. Tasha: Mmm. Luke: I'm here now. Tasha: ⁓ damn. Luke: Let's change that. Yeah. If everything was going well, I'm here to change that. Tasha: Fabulous. Matt: We were sort of quick catch up for you is that we've been discussing the fact that the industry is hard right now. That there's such a glut of people in the industry looking for work that games companies are now potentially sort of like starting to take advantage of that fact because supply and demand, right? Also, if Tasha: . Luke: Mmm. Tasha: Thank Matt: we start to just use AI to filter CVs and AI to create the CVs to get past the AI filters. Why are we using AI at all? Is our CVs really the right way to do recruitment? And what is the future of recruitment within the games industry? Is that a fair summary, Tash? Did I miss anything? Tasha: Now I think that's a fair summary. Matt: Yeah, all right. Luke: See, I hadn't used my CV for getting a job for a long time. When did I need to use it? I used it. I didn't even use it for improbable. So I hadn't used my CV for eight years. I was just using LinkedIn and recommendations. And it's only lately that I've been using it. And ironically, it's not doing very well. And when I run it through the, is this AI friendly? It says, you should say more of this, more of that. And you're like, yeah, but that's a bit. Tasha: Wow. Thank you. ⁓ So I ran it through, so I have my CV and I ran it through once, yeah this is great. Literally done nothing, ran it again and went, ⁓ this is bad. Ran it again and went, ⁓ this is great and I'm like, what is it, great or bad? Luke: Yeah, so yeah, give me the truth, yeah. Matt: Was it the same AI that you ran it through as well? Tasha: Same AI, same CV, is either great or good, it doesn't know. So see, that is another thing, your ATS doesn't know. It doesn't know what a good CV is versus a bad one. Because if I can run the same CV through like two or three times, then it can give me great, good, great, good, or bad, or whatever, great, bad, whatever. How do you know it's not just saying bad randomly to your applicants? Luke: Mm. Matt: Mm-hmm. Luke: Mm. Yeah, I think the other thing that's probably harming me is that because there's an influx of candidates versus jobs, there's like more candidates than jobs. They see me and they see like I've worked in several different industries and the games industry and then they see someone that's just been in the game industry and just worked their way progressively through their career to the position they're in and then, ⁓ let's get that guy because that guy or that person ⁓ is a better fit. yeah, so tarnished because I've got varied experience. Matt: Have you thought about just lying. Tasha: Create an AI company. worked here for like 10 plus years. Luke: What? AI you mean? Yeah. Matt: I've always ⁓ found that a peculiar thing about people selecting candidates. Well, you've worked in lots of different industries. Yeah, that's a good thing. It means I have a rounded experience. I've got a view of the world. Luke: Yeah, so it's tricky. Mmm. Yeah. Tasha: Yeah, you have experience, yeah. Luke: Yeah. Tasha: You can see tried and tested methods. You can see what's going on. You can apply things. Why is moving around bad? Luke: Yeah. Yeah. And then the other, the other one is have you worked on a project from start to finish? That's AAA. Like the amount of people that haven't is huge. No, but I've been thrown in the deep end on broken projects, left, and center though. Matt: Yeah. Tasha: I was going to say like, correct, I always get thrown at the end of project. I like, you want us to walk from a start to finish? Do know how long projects are? Some these are like nine years. You're going to stay somewhere and put for nine years for one project. No, people move every two to three years. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Matt: that would it would it would depend on the project. Like, yeah, if there was a project that I was like, I can dedicate a decade of my life to this. Gen like genuinely at the start of project. And I was like, I could definitely do a stint. Yeah, then yeah, I think I'd be up for it. But Luke: Yeah, a sequel was different. Tasha: Mm. Luke: Mmm. Tasha: Mm. I think it would have to be something I absolutely loved. I'd have to see visible progress. This is the problem with projects that are that long. You don't see visible progress all the time. It's just so destroying. Matt: on Luke: No, they shouldn't be that long anymore. They just simply should not be that long anymore. Matt: Be fair, the projects, ⁓ I'd be interested to kind of look at this, like how many projects took a decade to create that were actually end good at the end of it? So I guarantee that's not many. Tasha: Mm. Luke: Mmm. Yeah. Tasha: What would be your project that you do a stint it in? What game have you enjoyed and loved enough that you would say, do you know what, I could work here for 10 years on this kind of game? Luke: That's a good question. I like that. Matt: My marriage. That's about it. Just my marriage to my wife. We're only six years in at the moment. Tasha: I don't know she'd appreciate you calling your marriage a game. Risk and reward. Luke: Mm-hmm. It's a game for Matt though. Matt said this is fun. Yeah, I'm just gamifying it. Have you got analytics on how effective she is at tea making? Matt: She knows how I It's a game for me. Well, it's not. Tasha: create a shared dashboard for that. Matt: ⁓ yeah. Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can have a time to tea gauge, can you? Time to tea. I've asked for tea, how long does it take to get to my desk? Time to tea. Matt: huh, I've got I've got burn down charts ⁓ on her. ⁓ Tasha: Does she know she has a burned down chart Matt: Ha ha! Yeah. And my last marriage. Thank you. Tasha: So this is Matt's last episode everybody. We have enjoyed your time. Luke: Hmm So ⁓ to balance things out, the wives have probably got something along the lines of how many projects we've started, not finished. So that's probably a balance out. Tasha: Ahem. Mm. Matt: Well, that would be 100 % of them. ⁓ Classic starter, not. I think it's maybe not the one game, but certainly like the just the Halo series, I could see myself kind of like if anybody from. Luke: Yeah, yeah, it's at least all of them. It's at least all of them, Tasha: I'm totally stalled. Luke: Hmm. Matt: what they called, I can't remember what they renamed the studio to, but if anybody from Halo Studio would like to hire me for a decade, I'd be more than up for a conversation about that. Tasha: Mm. ⁓ Luke: I'm a rockstar fan, so it'd be Red Dead or GTA. It'd be just, yeah, mind-blowing. Just get lost in those. Matt: Yeah. Tasha: Larian for me. Matt: Larian. Interesting. Okay. Tasha: Maddie in here. Divine Erebol did. Maddie, absolutely not. I hate Maddie. It's not I hate, I I can't play the game very well. All of them. All of them. Maddie O'Cart's the worst for me. I can't. I think it's great for everyone else because I lose. Oh God. But yeah. Luke: thought you said Mario at first. Do you? ⁓ Mario's good. Yeah, which bastardized Mario did you play? Mario Kart's awesome! Matt: Which one? Which, which, cause this, ⁓ okay. Luke: We need a Mario Kart session between the three of us. Battle mode, just balloons. Yeah. ⁓ Matt: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That sounds OK. Tasha: No, mine would be Larian. I'd happily go work for Larian on like Baldur's Gate or Divinity. Yeah, that's my that kind of game is my jam. Like that turn based RPG story is my jam. Luke: ⁓ okay. Okay. Did you play Final Fantasy? Okay. Matt: Okay. Tasha: Yes, I love Final Fantasy Square Enix. very difficult. I've applied multiple times. ⁓ They won't respond. Not now, yeah. I've seen what's happening. It's a shame because I'd still love to work on the FF14 MMO. That would be great. Matt: You don't want to work for them anyway, man. Luke: Not now. Nah. Matt: Thank you. Luke: Mmm. Matt: Is that still going? Tasha: FF14, yeah. Matt: Okay. I don't, I mean, okay. Well, Tash is Scottish, so think it's okay. ⁓ Tasha: I think it's their moneymaker. Luke: They've just got no English people working on it, that's all. Tasha: Mm-hmm. It's all in Japan. Luke: Yeah. Tasha: Yeah, I'm odd enough to like bridge that gap, right? Luke: Aha! You get there quicker than us. Matt: But we were talking about, is there a better way? Is there a better way for games companies to do recruitment than your standard, especially now with AI filters, people using AI to create TVs, sending them to an AI filter? What does the future of recruitment in the games industry look like? Luke: Just some spitball ideas. So you know when there's a house that's up for rent and you have multiple people turn up and do the viewing at once? Some sort of random interview like that would be fun. Where everyone's there on like an open day for interviews. Just seeing how it goes. And then you see who naturally resonates to each other and da da. Matt: Yeah. Tasha: An open day interview. Mm-hmm. Mm. Matt: I was like an open casting call kind of situation. Yeah, okay. Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll give you a call back. Tasha: No. Matt: I mean, we did shit. Yeah, we actually did something like that once. It had had fairly mixed results, but I think that the idea was good. I think we only ran it once, but we did do that. We actually kind of like we still went through that original kind of like CV based process, but then we got a lot of people in on the same day. Talk to them, kind of like tested them out, see how they were like in person like so. Yeah, it was a good day. It was a it was a good idea. I think we could have. Luke: Mm. Matt: refined it had we kind of done it more frequently. Yeah, something to that, sure. Luke: I can imagine getting 20 CVs for one role and you want to whittle it down to like five or six people. It's quite tough when you get to like the last, I know, 10, eight. And then you're making a mistake. You're guaranteed to make a mistake. You're looking at a piece of paper where someone coming in and you talk to me like, ⁓ wow, your CV doesn't come across like this at all or vice versa. ⁓ wow, you're terrible. Your CV was really good. So that both happen. Tasha: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, talking to the person in either case is the way to kind of actually get to know if they are worth their CV or not. Luke: Mmm, it is. Matt: in. Luke: Maybe that's the other angle, Tash. Maybe it's a, maybe they do a video recording. Tell me why you want the role. Here's one that goes down the AI route again. You could get AI to do a first interview. Tasha: Hmm. But this is it. how do we get to the point where we speak to the individual as a first stage rather than tell me, give me your CV that is easily written out by you? How do you do that? Luke: I feel dirty saying it. Matt: you Luke: I think we just have to change it. Yeah, I think we have to, I think we have to change that. Like send me your CV. I'll look at your CV and decide if you're going to have an interview. I think, I think that's bad. I think that's, I think that's broken, but we could use AI to do like a video call and the AI would ask a set bunch of questions that you would ask rather than allow AI to have free rein, which, which is bad. Allow, give them specific questions that you want to get answers for. And you're expecting, I don't know, number of words. Tasha: Because talking to the individual is the best. How? But that you're still having that first stage, yeah. It is broken. Matt: Thank you. Tasha: you Hmm. Okay, like a video application. Luke: and then you watch back that video. Yeah, then you watch back that video. Going back to the casting call stuff, Matt, so that if you wanna be an extra or you wanna be in a film or TV show, you do a video first, then you get your audition, then you get your call back. You can do the same sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, promo tapes. Tasha: Mm. Mm. Matt: Yeah. Self-tape. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that there's something there. then like, OK, hypothetical situation like you guys are running your own studio. How do you then start to implement this new way of recruitment? Tasha: Woo. Luke: Just do it. Just, just do it. You can overthink it. Tasha: Yeah, so I mean, can still have, you can still have your job board, and says they were hiring for this, but then in the recruitment rather than a CV, you know, maybe a link to your LinkedIn, that would be something that we could look at, but send us a video application. Here's the questions you need to answer. Matt: You Luke: Mm. Yeah. First round is video application. Tasha: Record yourself. Tell me more about you and your video application. ⁓ Luke: think AI would make it more natural. I know it sounds it sounds unnatural. But if an AI agent is chatting to you and asking thanks for that really appreciate it. Right. Your next question is that that's much more fluid than looking at a sheet and going like, what are we? And it's less nerve wracking. I've done a first round interview with an AI. And it was pretty good. But then I realized that company was just farming people. And just I just felt like cattle. And I don't like that. That's not good. Tasha: Hmm. Matt: Pfft. Tasha: But yeah. Mm. Mm. But do like the video application idea. Because then it's like, well, you're getting to see the person, see how they communicate, how they talk, how they come across. And you can be like, all right, cool. Let's bring them in. Yeah. Luke: Mmm, yeah. Yes, you could merge the two. Matt: What do you do to make it equitable for people who do not like appearing on camera? Luke: Give them a cat cartoon avatar. Tasha: Candy. Matt: Ha ha! Tasha: but could they also just maybe do an audio recording? Matt: Mm-hmm. I'm jotting these down because when I go for my own game studio, I'm going to steal your ideas. Tasha: They don't have to maybe sit up. Luke: They're gonna steal our ideas. Tasha: They don't have to necessarily record themselves if they're not comfortable or for whatever reason, but an audio recording of who they are and what they do. Luke: I don't know, maybe there's a put your foot down type approach here. You're gonna be in video calls. If you wanna work hybrid, the whole role is hybrid. You need to be able to use your camera. Yeah, yeah you do. Tasha: Mm. Matt: Yeah. Tasha: No you don't. There's so many meetings where people are uncomfortable being on camera that they turn it off during the meeting but they are still present, they still contribute to the meeting just without being on camera. Luke: How does that come across? Tasha: Introverse. Nanks anxiety. Does it though? Luke: No. It comes across rude. Yeah. Because there's introverts that have their camera on, they're... they might... Tasha: Yeah, so they're happy to push themselves. That's fine. You don't know yet. This is a person doing an interview. The application. I would still be happy enough to hear the audio as long as they can communicate clearly and effectively and sell who they are on that audio recording. I'd be happy. Because I'm still going to have to bring them in to see them, so they're still going to have to face me at some point. Matt: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you get to face me. Face Tasha. Luke: You'll have to face me. So she's like the yin and yang together there. She's like, they might be shy on the camera. They might not want to speak, but when they see me face face, I want to see them. Yeah. Tasha: Yep. Hahaha Matt: Hahaha! Yeah, I am the end of level boss. Tasha: I gotta be nice first because at some point they are gonna have to come in and see me. you know, I'll be nice first and here we are. Luke: Yeah, you're have to look at each other's faces, whether you like it or not, this is my face. Yeah. Matt: Yeah. Go from that. What was the phrase that you used earlier, Tash? Motivational bullying. Tasha: What was that? Motivational Bullying! ⁓ Luke: Wow, okay, motivational bullying. It's good. Matt: Ha ha ha ha. Tasha: That's us here in this podcast. We motivationally bully each other all the time. I mean, we have just threatened Matt's Luke: is. Nice, yeah. Matt: No. I do that on a very regular basis myself. ⁓ Luke: And he's still waiting for that cup of tea as well. You've got one! ⁓ nice. And chocolate, wow. Wow, nice. Tasha: No, he brought it. He got it earlier. And chocolate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She beat him to it this time. She was ahead of the game. So that burn down chart's going to work in her favour tonight. Luke: A TTT rate is good. Time to tea. Time to tea. Matt: Absolutely. Time to tea Tasha: Fab, have we solved the world's problems? Matt: I think we fixed it, yeah. Luke: ⁓ So what other ideas do you want to steal from us, Matt: What have you got? Luke: Well, I'm a plethora plethora plethora I can't plethora Matt: ⁓ Tasha: Plefada, normalize burning it all down and starting again. Luke: Yeah, let's do that. Matt: I mean, I do think that there is something to this. I was talking to Tash earlier, I think there are some tech companies out there at the moment that are experimenting and trying to build platforms where people can apply for jobs or have profiles that are a bit more kind of like modern, that are a bit more like Instagram or TikTok. People are more comfortable using those kinds of platforms. Luke: Yeah. Matt: We are always going to have ⁓ introverts, we're always going to have to find ways to adapt the new way of doing things to be more inclusive. But I don't think it's any more exclusive than writing a good CV or coming across well in a face-to-face interview. I think it might be a little bit better in lots of different ways, giving people a different way to apply for a job. It's more inclusive. It's got to be. Luke: What about mobile games? Are there any mobile games that you think, that's awesome, I love that. No? Tasha: I don't play any. I don't play any mobile games. There's none on my phone. Matt: I tell a lie. ⁓ body of mine. ⁓ did a mobile game that is fantastic. ⁓ mindset. And it's a little puzzle game where you're just sorting different shapes into different circles. And it is genuinely phenomenal. And it's... Luke: Sounds a bit like Tetris. Matt: ⁓ No, no, quite. No, no, not at all. And it was Harry, Harry Holmwood, games industry legend and all around absolutely delightful person. And he made a game called Mindset. he in conversation with him, I think he did say it took us a while to kind of get right. what I like, I hope I'm not speaking too far out of school. Tasha: and Luke: Okay. Yeah, that name rings a bell. Tasha: Mm. Matt: But he was kind of saying, one of the things that really blew their mind about it was that no one else had done it. And they felt like someone must have made a game like this already. Yeah, it seems weird. But yeah, they stumbled across this kind really cool idea for a puzzle game. And I believe that they've just done a deal with the newspaper. So the newspaper are now printing. Luke: Mmm. ⁓ wow, nice. Matt: like in the initial pages, like a version of it. You've got to the puzzle. It's very cool. But I don't think I care so much for working on I have worked on mobile games. I quite enjoyed it at the time. I don't think I'd do it again. But if I could work with Harry, I probably would, to be honest, because he's genuinely a delight. Yeah. Luke: You've to solve the puzzle. Yeah, that's really cool. Tasha: That's sweet. That is cool. Luke: They're so good now as well. They're really, really good. Matt: Welcome to Prod Pod, where Luke ⁓ is late the half an hour. ⁓ Myself and Tash, we to talk about why the games industry is hard. talk about why AIs talking to AIs in recruitment is probably not the best idea. ⁓ Then we start to about, ⁓ well, then Luke shows We start to talk about what Luke was doing, and then we start to talk about different games that Luke has played and different TV shows that Luke remembers from his past. Luke: Hang on, we didn't make this the Luke show. Matt: All that remains is for me to say thank you to Luke and Tash and you, the lovely listener or watcher or whoever you're ingesting this content. Tasha: and And just. ⁓ sure. Matt: Yeah, I'm going with it. I'm going with ingest. Thank you for watching. Thank you for your time. If you have any questions, do feel free to reach out to us at the email address below, which is gameprodpod@proton.me. And I'll put that in the show notes as well. Thank you for your time. See you next one. See you on the next one. See you on the next one. There we go. I got there in the end. For fuck's sake. Tasha: Bye. Luke: Ha!