Jacob Luetzow: What's up? I'm Jacob Litzo, your Elixir Mentor, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Elixir Mentor Podcast. This is where we discuss everything related to Elixir from interviews with enthusiasts and pioneers in the community to innovative projects and libraries shaping Elixir's future. All right. So last time he was here, he pulled off the first X-Mex. And since then, he ran a Ruby conference, booked year two of X-Mex, and is now four weeks from doing it again in Austin. Welcome back, Nathan. Nathan Hessler: Hey, thanks. Yeah. Glad to be back. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, it's good to have you. And we just hung out in Chicago. I feel like that was just like a week ago, but it was already Nathan Hessler: Yeah, September it yeah. September was quite the whirlwind. I was at X Mex the first half and then got to be an C at Rails World and part of the actually got to introduce D H H before he came up and blew the internet up. Jacob Luetzow: I feel like he's just doing the ultimate troll and I'm here just to enjoy enjoy it. Nathan Hessler: What's funny is like on like boots on the ground at the event, it was it was like a conversation, but it wasn't it wasn't near the internet level of yeah, it just wasn't as crazy. It was like, that was an interesting opening, but it wasn't the yeah. Yeah, for sure. Jacob Luetzow: The X ecosystem just blows things up, you know? The drama and the bots get involved. Who knows what happens. Nathan Hessler: Yep. Yeah. You gotta have a hotter take for the clicks. Jacob Luetzow: Exactly. I yeah, yeah, I don't know. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. It was funny. I was like getting texts from Elixirists and Rubyists like, What is it like at the conference? And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. It's actually quite fun. We're having a great time. Jacob Luetzow: That's cool. So how how was it? Was that your first time like MCing like a a large conference? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. obviously and Jacob Luetzow: How'd you how'd you land that? Nathan Hessler: so I just reached out. I actually reached out to the organizer and said, Hey, I'm in Austin, you're coming to Austin, let me volunteer. Let me I'm boots on the ground, tell me what I can do to help. I'll go look at sites or whatever you want. Basically just offered I know that and I you know, I mentioned like, hey, I run I've run two other conferences, so I I kinda know what you're looking for and I can, you know, help. That was a little presumptuous on my end. But and I'll tell you why in a second. But yeah, so like she happened to be, she lives in Europe, but she happened to be in Austin that weekend. And so we just grabbed some coffee and chatted, and she's like, I think I can you can be of a lot of help. Let me figure it out. A couple months later she reached out and said, Hey, can you fill out this application for MCs? And so I did, and she was like, Yep, I think you would be a good fit. So It was yeah. And by presumptuous, Jacob Luetzow: That's awesome. Nathan Hessler: like Ruby or Rails World is a production. Like what I do is a community event with a lot of just kind of off the cuff, like, you know, nobody's like looking for like I don't have videos running at the same time that somebody's mic needs to be on. There's no not a ton of handoffs. We take breaks for the handoffs, like Rails World was a production. There was like front of house, there's back of house, there's mics, there's videos, there's slides. It's like and it's all detailed. It was really impressive and really cool to see behind the scenes for that stuff. It was just on another level. Ma really like two Jacob Luetzow: Now you Nathan Hessler: or three levels above me. Jacob Luetzow: You well, now you got the insider view though of how to level up. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope I never get that big. I don't know that I want to do that. It was it was Jacob Luetzow: Dude. Nathan Hessler: very, very impressive. I mean, like, they're starting eighteen months ahead of schedule. They know what they're doing and like it's her full-time job to run this stuff. Jacob Luetzow: That's wild. So they're already starting w before the current one's about to go. Like, that's yeah. Nathan Hessler: Hundred percent. Yep. And they're doing it from outside the city. Like a lot of my advantage is that I live in the city and it I can like attach it to my current job and just run errands or do whatever, go see a site. I c y Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: you're doing it from Europe and setting it up in the US or wherever, you know, you're just yeah, it's another level. Way, way above me. Jacob Luetzow: That's crazy. Well, I mean, I just think about like what you're doing and I was like, that's a lot of work. And then to bring in like 'cause you like production crews and whatever whatever else, like you got sound guys, video guys, probably all of it. Nathan Hessler: that actually turns out to be really straightforward. the venue that I use has a lot of that stuff kind of statically set up. So if you like what Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: they're doing, they'll just like hit the record button and just record the whole day. And then we just have to split it up and splice it together for YouTube consumption. But Jacob Luetzow: Okay. Nathan Hessler: yeah. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, that's cool. So I'm curious. Well, like I wanna like talk high level conference things first. Cause I feel like you got a pretty good lineup stacking up that I've seen at least. Yeah. So what what is your process for first of all finding speakers? And then how do you like since it's all single track, it has to people can't be seeing the same stuff over and over, right? Because everyone at the conference sees it all. So how do you like stagger talks and how do you I'm sure AI is almost all the talks, at least part of them, right? Nathan Hessler: AI is probably gonna be involved in a little bit in every talk. I I remember watching I think you were talking to Alex a little while back, like right after XMEX and y you were telling him that like it just felt like it was AI heavy. And then I texted Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: you behind the scenes and I was like, we had one AI talk a day. That was it. And you were like, Yeah, but every break and every lunch and everything in between, like when you're talking to other people, it's all AI. So like that's just where we are in the industry. Jacob Luetzow: I wasn't trying to knock it, by the way. I still really love the XMEX conference. Nathan Hessler: For sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I just was like I really thought deeply about that problem and thought hard about that problem and tried to account for it and like it just even I couldn't do much about it. It was still just very AI focused. Jacob Luetzow: I mean, I think it's become like I've almost I think we're like just so sensitive to it because we were like in it every single day, especially being in tech, we're in that bubble, that ecosystem. Because like even like, you know, the Elixir conference in Chicago this year, every single talk pretty much included AI of some sort, you know, into the workflow of whatever it may be. And there's just no avoiding it. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, hundred percent. Yeah, hundred percent. So to answer your question, I try to I try to be a little bit different. I think Elixir Conf and some of the other regional confs, they have a See, they just I think they're more known in the space than I am, and they've been around longer in the space than I have. So they have a little more access and they're a little more aware of like who the kind of thought leaders are, you know. So like Chris McCord and Jose are always gonna talk at ElixirConf. That's never not Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: going to happen. it doesn't make sense for then me to reach out and be like, Hey, would you guys love to be keynotes at X Max? You know, so I'm trying to think kind of outside of the box a little bit on that stuff, try and find new speakers, give people an a chance, there's a you know, there's an opportunity to kind of step up and do something that you wouldn't maybe get accepted at ElixirConf for, but could get accepted at X-Mex for. keynotes, I'm really trying to find like two people that I think will have something interesting to say that isn't technical necessarily. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: really kind of bigger picture stuff like you know inspirational, deep insight stuff. I mean Maggie and Amos nailed it last year, I think Jacob Luetzow: I was just gonna say both their talks were so good. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. They were both like, you know, Maggie's talk on community, and Amos's talk on just learning and I I mean like they were just so good. I could watch those videos over and over and I actually have, like I partly because I have to, but partly 'cause I was like, what was that part again? Let's go watch that again. That was just fun. Jacob Luetzow: Whenever you have to edit video, you're watching this something a lot. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I hate that for sure. but yeah, so like the the keynotes I'm looking for the more like ki like I said, inspirational, community driven, big idea kind of stuff. for the actual speakers, the the in between the the the major content of the of the conference, I'm looking for technical talks. Like but I'm looking for, you know, I'm looking for speakers that haven't spoken a ton. I'm looking for talks that haven't been given before. you know, I I like if the video already exists, it just reduces the reason people will want to come to XMEX. So I need to kinda do that. and I have some people that like I usually build a little committee of myself and maybe one or t two other people to just like vote on how we like things and and whatever and There's a whole process. We can talk through the details of that if you want. But ultimately the goal, like I leave it like I have yet to do this. I've never pulled a card, but ultimately I think it does end up in my hands to make the call, like if there's like a tiebreak or whatever. But so far it's been really straightforward and you know, we've gotten to a good good list without any without Jacob Luetzow: That's awesome. Nathan Hessler: any headaches. Jacob Luetzow: Are you curating topics or are you letting people come with come to you with the topics? And you're like, that's a good fit. Nathan Hessler: I don't I don't curate topics at all. You come to me with what you want to talk about. And if we think it's interesting and a good talk and you've made a good case for what your talk will look like, we're gonna we're gonna like it. I don't even do that with keynotes. I give them the same pitch I just gave you. I want a keynote that's in this space and it can be all over the place. like I don't if you need me help, like this is the other offer I tell everybody is like I'm happy to help, but if you don't need me, I would like to be surprised and get a chance to see it for the first time with everybody else at X. so especially for keynotes like the reason it says keynote is Jacob Luetzow: That seems risky. You could have a off hinged unhinged speaker. Nathan Hessler: It's possible. You could definitely do that. Yeah. but I I I trust I trust my speakers. I trust the keynotes. Like they've they've all I have yet to be bitten by that. So I'll it's one of those things I'd rather not I'd rather not account for it until it's happened, if that Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: makes sense. Jacob Luetzow: I haven't had to mute any guests on my podcast yet either, or like just hit the stop live button. Nathan Hessler: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Most people they we know what we're in for. We know what we're here for and I think everybody's like on board with that. So yeah. The reason like I was getting at the the reason it says keynote is 'cause I don't even know what the keynotes are gonna talk about. Like I'm gonna be just as surprised as everybody when they come on stage and give their talk and Jacob Luetzow: I like that. But you see you see the name and you'll you know that it's something you want to probably listen to or not miss, you know? Like Nathan Hessler: For sure. Jacob Luetzow: I was I like just like going last year, seeing Maggie, I was like, this is gonna be interesting. Like 'cause like, yes, she's Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I was Jacob Luetzow: heavily involved in Elixir, but she's also not on the technical side. And I was like, I I bet it'll be pretty good. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Yeah. I this may be Not mine to share, but it's a fun little story. She I reached out to her. I actually really thought I was like, I bet you she would be a really good speaker. and so I I sent her an email and I had been asking her and Bruce for help and and advice and stuff for X Max as I was setting it up. And so she just messaged back like, did you want me to send this to Bruce? And I like, No, no, I'm asking you and you know, she was like, let me check, let me check and she came back and she's like, I would be honored and man, she just nailed it. I it's such a good talk. What What a what an awesome way to open the first XMEX. It just nailed it. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, that was awesome. It was very cool. So is there a speaker you're particularly excited about off their topic? Nathan Hessler: I man, that's like Jacob Luetzow: And you can't say it all. You can't say them all. You can't. Nathan Hessler: I but you're asked it's like picking a kid if you have more than one kid. Like which one's your favorite? You can't answer that question. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, but we all secretly have the favorite. I'm just kidding, you don't have to say. Nathan Hessler: They all secretly do and they all say the same thing I just did. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Fair enough. We won't we won't pull that out of you. so is it four weeks or am I making that number up? Are we four weeks out from Nathan Hessler: I believe we are four weeks out, yeah, yeah. we try to end Jacob Luetzow: Okay, so Nathan Hessler: standard about three weeks out 'cause that's when we have to place all the orders to make sure everything arrives in time. Jacob Luetzow: I was just gonna ask, how are you feeling this time of year versus last? Are you more prepared, feel the same? Nathan Hessler: I probably feel similar but for different reasons. Like it's it's just stressful. Like there's this like weird like curry up and wait aspect to conferences, right? Like you you lock in the venue, you have that conversation, you open up the C F P and then you kinda wait a few weeks while everybody submits and nothing's really happening, and then and then the end of the CFP you kind of do a little like marketing push and you have to pick everybody and then you tell everybody and then you start ticket sales and you start marketing, but you kinda get in the groove there for a few months while you're You're just you know weekly updates and whatever. And then it's like, okay, now we need to start like reaching back out to food vendors and reaching out and figuring out like swag and signage and all this stuff and nailing all that down and yeah, so there's like there are like points at which you have to kind of like do the hurry-up and then there's like gaps where you're just kind of waiting for the next hurry up. and we are definitely in hurry-up mode now. Jacob Luetzow: That's awesome. Nathan Hessler: there's a lot of orders and then we'll probably like week two and the week before we'll be pretty quiet and then the week of obviously that's that'll be the bigger the biggest hurry up. Jacob Luetzow: And then you just black out during the event and then when it's all over, you're like, I'm back. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. I I mean, you were there, you saw it, like I got emotional just like kicking it off 'cause there was a moment in my head as I was talking where I was like, there's nothing left for me to do. Like it's just it's gonna go as it will, and I'm you know, we're just we're riding the wave now. And it was just like it was a little bit of relief and also just a little bit of like we did it and we're about to see what what it comes to and yeah, it was yeah, exactly. You just Jacob Luetzow: I mean, you must have liked it because now this is gonna be officially your third conference. Yeah, that's awesome. How did your RBQ one go? Nathan Hessler: Third, yep. Yeah, yeah. I do really enjoy it. Say again. Jacob Luetzow: How did the Ruby conference one? How was that? Nathan Hessler: That man, I you know, I it went in a like broad strokes, it went exactly the same as X-Mex. We had some great keynotes, they did a great job. Our speakers were amazing. I had a l because I had done it once before, I had a little bit more awareness of my energy levels and what I could handle. and that allowed me to do more. Jacob Luetzow: Hmm. Yeah. Nathan Hessler: Right. It just was able to do a little bit more, but it's also a way different community. Like I guess I I knew this in my head, but like the Ruby community was just like we were surprised. We got I think for X Mex we got like two big containers of local coffee from this company called Couvet. And we always had a little leftover and we like, Okay, that's the right number. Let's and we did that for Arbecue and they janked through it in the each morning, like before lunch and they were like, Is Is there any more coffee? And we're like, no, sorry. We we had not planned for you guys to be the coffee themes you are. so like, you know, just little things like that, but also bigger things, like obviously with Ruby. No, no, no. No. Jacob Luetzow: Is it because like Ruby is less enjoyable than Elixir, so you need more coffee to write it? Nathan Hessler: actually, man, there's a lot to talk about with there too. They're doing a lot of stuff. There's a lot of updates coming on these things they call Ractors, which are, you know, it's short for Ruby actors, which are inspired by processes in the beam. Like heavily. Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: They're different because they weren't introduced at the beginning. So there's a lot of Ruby decisions that they have to work around. But they're working to make them faster, to make their more more performant, to kind of do the isolation. They're figuring it out and it's it's looking cool what they're doing. but Yeah, the Ruby community is is different. and there's a lot more focus on Rails in Ruby. Like Rails is kind of where most people spend their time in Ruby. Whereas with Elixir, you know, you have people in Nerves, you have people in Phoenix, you have people doing data analytics. you know, there's a lot that Elixir, I think Elixir is just a little more diverse in its different subgroups, whereas like Ruby is not synonymous with Rails, but man, there's a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. That makes sense. I mean, it's like the just the full stack developer, right? Just your typical crud application. That's Ruby on Rails. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, totally. And that actually made it harder. One of the things you asked is how do you like schedule and stuff? And I do I I pull up my agent, we kinda work through it and but like it doesn't make any decisions. I'm just really trying to what I'm trying to do is group like talks together so that I can separate them in the conference. Like it is single track Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: and I don't want the two like I don't want the two DevOps talks to be back to back. Right. I want a DevOps talk on Monday or on T Thursday and a DevOps talk on Friday. And I don't want the I don't want Thursday to feel like Friday. So I'll even put them at different times on each day. really trying to create some like not necessarily randomness, but non-patterness, if that yeah. Yeah, yeah. So Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, you don't need a groundhogs day feeling. Groundhog's Day, right? Just DevOps both at 8 a.m. First thing. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I do try to open up with something core on both Daves that's like just great elixir not basics, but you know, like core elixir. We're not we're gonna Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: like dive into PubSub and dive into this or whatever. You know, they're the yeah. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, no, that's cool. So now, as you plan conferences and you're a developer and I know you're a nerd, so how what have you been building like internal tooling to automate your process of just organizing conferences? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, great question. it's funny. So for the marketing, that's probably the easiest one. Like I have a Chat GPT schedule and I I've it's gotten way better just like understanding the voice that I want. I think ChatGPT has been just really good for marketing copy, you know, Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: that kind thing. and so like I'll just have a thread. So I have a thread right now that's just like XMEX 2026 marketing updates. And so every week I hop in there and I'm like, okay, here's the next announcement. Pass it a bunch of info about what I want to say. It'll spit something out. It knows all the channels, so it'll automatically spit spit out a thing for X and Blue Sky for LinkedIn and for the email. I'll push back on some things and have it rewrite some things. Say again. Jacob Luetzow: Question Are you manually scheduled or are you still manually posting everything? Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Yeah, I haven't gotten to the point where I connect it to the the connectors and stuff. I'm not I'm not quite there. yeah. Jacob Luetzow: So I've been using Grokbot and it is life changing. Like it's awesome. Like all my little bots are just going. I have one that just really knows my like my branding for like creating thumbnails and creating videos. And then I have one that does research and like content copy. And like they're all like learning my voice, and it's awesome. So I just have them all schedule. And then they're tied into my Google Calendar and they put everything on my Google Calendar so I know when posts are going out. And then I gave one Grokbot, who's my scheduler, who goes and schedules all my posts directly to Kin Switch's accounts. Nathan Hessler: Interesting. I thought about that. I'm still I'm still on the s I'm just on the more privacy centric side. Like because if I had I would feel differently if I was running a local model that I knew was not doing any like phoning home or anything like that. Like but the Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: idea of like I just don't trust open AI like open AI all of them, not just open AI, all the models have made it Jacob Luetzow: I agree. I don't either. But at some like at some point I'm like, well, what are they gonna know about Kin Switch? Just like that, I don't know how to market. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Well and I'm not so much worried about that stuff. It's more like giving them access to my emails and stuff that I'm Jacob Luetzow: I do keep that locked down, like they only have access to Kin switch. Nathan Hessler: Do you have like a separate email account that you give access to or something? Jacob Luetzow: Well, they have access to Kin switch, and then they're not allowed to send any emails without like my permission, but they'll draft emails because I like to read everything. And Nathan Hessler: Sure. Jacob Luetzow: honestly, like from when I first started, I was like making corrections left and right. Like, no, this doesn't sound like something I would say. And like the last couple of weeks, it's like got it dialed, which I think is pretty cool. Yeah. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. I totally see the value in that. I think that would be really good. I'm just Jacob Luetzow: But I also I get where your angle is coming from. I just, you know, bottle up those feelings and I'm just like, Jesus, take the wheel. Nathan Hessler: There's definitely a balance in there and everybody's gonna have to find their own. but that's I'm just hesitant. It's not even what you're talking about, I'm not even afraid of it sending an email that I wouldn't write or whatever. I'm actually Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: more concerned that like anthropic and open AI, they can all see that stuff and they're just slurping it up to train the next model. And Jacob Luetzow: yeah. Yep. Nathan Hessler: it's not even I don't even mind that they're training next model off most of my stuff, but there are certain emails in there that I just don't want. Anybody you know what I'm like that's mine. That's I don't I don't wanna give it to them. So like doing that kind of separation is not possible yet in the email. So Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: yeah. Jacob Luetzow: we got Elise saying writing for me is the easy and fun part. So it's a thing I generally won't let LLMs do just because it doesn't save me a lot of time. And I get that. So like I only have it do it like I have it like schedule and kind of draft everything for me because then I'm not doing like the heavy lifting of preparing posts and emails. But and then I just, you know, I review it, make my changes, press send. So, like I Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: don't know. I use it more as like a an assistant because I still like my own voice on it, but I also like some of the work already done for me. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, for sure. I'm not a marketer. So like having a marketing voice trying to pitch the thing is a little bit harder for me. So that part I I do or I let I let a little I give a little bit more to the agent. But yeah, with writing my own emails or whatever, maybe that's not what we're trying to get at. But I I do try to like make sure that when it should be my voice, it is my voice. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: and if it should be me and just right out of my brain without any help, it's right out of my brain without any help. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Well, like in my Kin Switch accounts, I care less about it being my voice. I care more about it like showing my product off. And there's kind of like a product voice versus Jacob's voice, the founder. And so I'm like a little more lenient because it's just, you know, a product. Nathan Hessler: Right. Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. I think I would probably fall Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: in a very similar space there. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: so that's like that's emails and marketing stuff. That's pretty straightforward. I've actually been building out for a couple reasons. I've been building out my own CFP software. that's been really interesting. one of the goals I set for myself was to make it free. Just just so people know, like conferences are most of the time not moneymakers. The the organizers are doing it for the love of the game. Like that's it. So like you you're trying to find ways to cut and make it interesting and and keep costs down. and so like one of the things I had for myself was like, Can I do this for free? So Goo my website is still posted to Google Webb Go no sorry, GitHub static pages. and it uses man, I'm hesitant to say this out loud, but I'm using Google Sheets as the back end. yeah. Jacob Luetzow: All right. Hey, I'm all about creative solutions. Nathan Hessler: I would not do this again. It's been a lot of fun. It's a been fun place to visit, but obviously spreadsheets are not databases, so like querying the spreadsheet and pulling data like I have like a lot of my stuff has like you know, dials in it, like processing dials, right? 'Cause it just takes a little bit to pull the information out or save the information to the to the s to the sheet. so but it's been fun and it's been free. Like I already have a Google account, so that that helped. All the emails that go out from that are marked as no reply, but their gr no reply is just an alias on my email. So if you do reply, I will get it. so there's Jacob Luetzow: I made the mistake. I used to have like a a notify email that if anyone replied to, it would just literally swallow it up and give them an error. And then yeah, creating the alias, you do have to get those replies, even if you don't want them to. But I actually I set the Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I was actually a little hesitant, but yeah. Jacob Luetzow: reply to now. I have the reply to go to my main email, but just in case that doesn't work, it still forwards to me. Nathan Hessler: Nice. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So like you know, like I even looked at using Superbase 'cause they have like free accounts, but the one thing they can't do is send emails. You once once you want to send an email, you have to pay for an account. And that makes a lot of sense for Superbase. They don't want Jacob Luetzow: Google Sheets can send emails. Nathan Hessler: What Google Sheets on a business account can send emails. Jacob Luetzow: Huh, I never knew that. I mean, yeah, you're already paying Nathan Hessler: With app scripts. Jacob Luetzow: for the the works the work suite or whatever the workspace. Nathan Hessler: Exactly. So like that yeah, so like I have that set up. So it it can send emails and I can do like broadcasts and other things that are just kinda more like transactional rather than markety. but yeah. Jacob Luetzow: That's awesome. Hmm. Yeah. I I have never done that, but I like the creative side. Elise Elise is saying that Google Nathan Hessler: Yeah, it's it's been fun and Jacob Luetzow: Sheets is the next SQL light. Nathan Hessler: I think it is. I don't know about that ne necessarily, but it definitely feels like old school access database type stuff. Where it like Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, that's funny. Nathan Hessler: it was never meant to be a full database, but you know, people made it work and it yeah, crazy. Jacob Luetzow: People will abuse tools the way the original engineer never thought. Nathan Hessler: Yep, a hundred percent. I'm in that boat. and and the other goal was to like one of the things I okay, so one goal was to keep it free or as cheap as possible. Check. The second goal was to like one of the problems is that like Most of the software for my level is very disparate, meaning it's just like, you know, point solution here, point solution there. I ha if I want to do a CFP, I need to go get like session eyes or play call. They're very nice software, but they break the experience. They don't integrate with my ticketing system, they don't integrate with marketing or email systems, they don't and it like it just isn't it's not a first class experience to my conference, right? They're being pulled out of my conference experience and being put into, you know, their experience for the CF their CFP experience. Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: I I don't begrudge them that. That was just something I didn't want in my experience. So part of doing it myself was also to make sure that like it felt like it belonged at XMEX and it was specific to XMEX. So like the CFP, which you can't see anymore because it's been turned off, but like it used all the same styles, all the same kind of design language. it was on xmexconf.com that whole time, right? So like everything was very first class and felt integrated. and even at the end, once we got to speakers and stuff, I created similar systems to you s that you see on like the main page for them to fill in their speaker ticket. So like they log in and they go to or they check in and they go to the the the selected page and they see like here's my ticket, go claim my ticket and it's like got all that same stuff. So it's all very integrated, kind of I don't want to say bundled, but yeah, it's like a first class experience. can't remember. I'll think of it in a minute. But yeah. So those were like the two big ones. I wanted it to be free. I wanted to have an integrated experience across I wanted it to be XME like designed throughout the whole process. And then I really wanted things to integrate well. And a lot of these systems, you know, you have information here, you have information there. So I got halfway better with that. Like if you go to like I never want you to be pulled off of the site where I didn't mean you to. So like Tito does a great job of Like they have like an embeddable widget and so I'm using that embeddable widget where it pops up the last piece. The last piece is it. Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: I've actually built a lot on top of it, that like makes a lot of the ticket selection and promo codes all feel very XMEX, but the last piece where you have to put in your credit card and stuff, that needs to be secure, so that does look like a little iframe on top of the you know, and it has that like Tito look to it. But Jacob Luetzow: And I feel like that's a good that's actually better UX because you want people to trust how you're processing their payment. So it's almost good like for Kin Switch, it goes to Stripe, you know, it uses their portal. And I just feel like you just want Nathan Hessler: Yeah. One hundred percent. Jacob Luetzow: people to know you're handling their payment stuff properly. Elise asked, was the CFP running on Phoenix slash live view? Nathan Hessler: No, none of it's running on CFPs or on Phoenix slash live you this round. next round almost definitely. my goal is that I've actually talked to a few conference organizers, actually outside of the tech space, but I was hoping to do this for tech people, was to build something that was more integrated, that kind of checked all those box minus free. Can't do free. But you know, something that they could pull in via like a I wanted to be AI friendly where they can kind of embed the experience so embedding CFPs, embedding the ticket experience, embedding all those like things that I've I've been able to embed, having that integrate well with the ticketing system. So either you know I haven't decided yet if I'm gonna pass off to something like Tito or have like integrations built in or just have my own ticketing system in there as well. but the goal is to like turn it into a Phoenix app that can be used similarly where you can like we can use web components, we can use iframes, we can really, I think with AI, make Jacob Luetzow: I was just gonna ask. Nathan Hessler: this very, very kind of like embeddable. And like somebody used the term event harness, and I thought that was a really good Jacob Luetzow: Cause you're is this Okay. Nathan Hessler: name for it. Jacob Luetzow: I like that, yeah. Cause last time we talked, is this like the SAS product that you want to build to help organize conferences, or is that something else? Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. This is it. And I think this was Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: like the first step. Like, could I do it for me? Like what does it look like to do it just on XMEX and RBQ? And so this was that first step. And I think I've got something that I'm gonna try and turn into something that hopefully more people can use. Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: So I had an ex post this morning and I was like, I will like I no longer like even want to think about using SaaS products that I can't connect with an MCP and just have my agents you learn how to use and run. And like I think the new wave, instead of like mobile first development, it's going to be agent first development. Like if you can't use your full product type typing in like a into a prompt, I think You're not like, how cool would that be if you can set up an entire conference prompting with one of your AI agents? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, totally. So that's definitely part of the goal is like right there's like like you said, there's a split in there. You want to know that certain things just work and they're secure and whatever. So like there are certain parts that will need to fall back to me. Like I like if I do this, I will need to handle the payments. but like Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: hopefully that's something like Tito or other systems where I embed that last kind of that last mile experience to close the loop. But everything before that is as custom as possible to you. via what I would call AI friendly APIs and MCPs. And honestly, like I don't want to put AI into this product. I want the I want BYOA. That's the way I would want it. I want, like you said, I want to bring my agent to your product. Jacob Luetzow: Here's here's like, yeah, I agree with you. Like like Kin switch, I don't need to bring AI into it because what am I gonna do? Do it worse than Claude or Grok or open AI. You might as well use the tools that work well and just let them communicate with your tool. Nathan Hessler: Yep, I agree with that. yeah, a hundred percent. I could see a world where it's maybe like agent to agent, but I don't want an experience where you have to go in there and then kind of like train the embedded agent to do the thing that your agent already knows how to do or has the context to do the thing that, you know. So Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Yeah, I mean 'cause I mean like at the end of the day, it's a crud app. You just need to allow people to create things and publish things, you know, and just make it seamless and easy. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, one hundred percent. So the goal is to build something that's ag agent friendly but still BYOA and you know, embeddable where you can customize the experience, really take control of the parts that are gonna be important for your conference, but then leave the hard parts to me. So like you don't have to worry about setting up a database, you don't have to worry about tracking all this or integrating your CFP with the ticketing system because that's already done. you know, you don't have to worry about payments because that's already handled, that kind of stuff. Jacob Luetzow: So is it going to be kind of like your own like ho hosting platform, like static hosting web pages, or what do you see for that? Nathan Hessler: That's a great question. I think there are Mike, I think there are three different ways to do that. One is like, you know, you already know what you want. You already have a design team or whatever, or you know, you knew you're already coming in with an agent or your own skill set. And so you really just wanna like self-service. I think that's probably the largest group. I haven't done a ton of market research on this, but I think that's very common. I think there's another group of like I still want a very custom experience to my conference, to my event. but I need help. And so I think there are Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: probably some packages where it's like, Hey, you know, engage with us, we'll do something. Excuse me, sorry, hiccups. But you know, we'll do something with you, we'll work with you kind of like on a limited engagement to get something set up that makes sense for you. And then I think a third is like you can use our default like you know, like on Luma. You would just use our default event space or whatever that has some customizability but is still fairly cookie cutter and you can tell it it is Luma when you're on it, you know. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nathan Hessler: so. Jacob Luetzow: I like that. So when are we seeing this launch? six months? Nathan Hessler: Yeah. I mean yeah, I gotta get started. first I gotta get through X Mex and we're Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: very close to announcing another one, so like we just gotta, you know, it's about keeping keeping balls in the air, keeping plates spinning on their poles. Jacob Luetzow: See, you're practically doing it eighteen months ahead. You're already ready to announce the next. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. But that's kind of where it's at. So like I need to start planning this. If I wanna use it for XMix, I think it needs to be ready probably in the next six to eight months. Jacob Luetzow: I feel like what's really cool with your situation, at least you can just like really dog food it and just create the tools you need for like the size, the one track conference right now, you know? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. One of the problems I've had until recently is like like we were just talking about, is like sharing the context. Like if I want to go start a new project, that means I'm gonna probably spin up a new agent, right? A session in that new product that has absolutely no idea about what I've already done in the XMEX folders and all that stuff. Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: So how do I get the context out of there and get it into the new thing? And one of the things I've started using is two EOS. it's like Herder. It's a multiplexer with some agent-friendly stuff in Jacob Luetzow: Okay. Nathan Hessler: it. And one of the things it includes is a messaging system. So agents can talk to other agents. So I Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: can actually like go into the XMEX session and be like, hey, all this stuff that we did around the CFP, go share that. Like write up a document Jacob Luetzow: Man. Nathan Hessler: and pass it over or something to the new app agent that I'm building. Jacob Luetzow: I need to make the jump. I've had like Herder on my list of things to do and I'm still stuck in the T-MUX world. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah. So I would I would say and I'm not I'm not a huge I was never a big T-Mex guy. Two EOS is my first endeavor in multiplexing. Jacob Luetzow: Well, how do I spell this? Nathan Hessler: it's it's literally the letters T-U-I-O-S. Jacob Luetzow: T U I O S. okay. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. And it is I think it's better than Herder. I've tried Herder a little bit. It's not nearly as customizable. Two EOS, I've done a ton of customizations too. And very similar. Like I think most of the customizations I've built, I could also build for TMUX. The thing that keeps me from going back to TMUX or trying really going all in on TMUX is that Tweeos comes with already built-in agent friendly aspects. Jacob Luetzow: That's cool. I mean, and that I think that was the appeal of checking out Herder for me too, right? Like like Tmux works for spinning up like agent sessions and then you remote into them whatever, but it's not I like that the fact that your agent sessions can communicate. I think that's big. Nathan Hessler: They can communicate with each other. They can communicate with the other panes in your window. So that's nice too. Like I no longer Jacob Luetzow: That's cool. Nathan Hessler: like so often I really dislike that the agent would run the tests in the background and say, Hey, the test pass. And I'd be like, Where do I verify that you ran the tests and that they actually passed? So now instead of it running Jacob Luetzow: Is this lying to you? Nathan Hessler: in the background, I'm like, I have some rules that say like, whenever you run tests, run it in the test pane. We've named it test. Run it the test there. And so I can actually watch Jacob Luetzow: I like that. Nathan Hessler: it. Right. And if it needs to restart. the local server, there's another pane with the server so I can see the logs. It's not hidden behind the agent and it knows to stop it. If I need to stop it, I can stop it. It's a shared environment between me and the agent, which is really nice. Jacob Luetzow: I need you to teach me your workflow. That sounds really nice. I like that. Nathan Hessler: I would love to, maybe another I don't know. That that that's another conversation. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, we could do a live a live stream tutorial. see I always try to drag my smart friends on to teach me things and Nathan Hessler: Sure. I I'd be up for it if you're if you're interested. Jacob Luetzow: then I just do it live so everyone knows I'm an idiot. Nathan Hessler: good. I like you know like mine is I'm sure it's not the best way to do things but it's the way I figured it out and it works in my head. Jacob Luetzow: I I think like you kind of can pull together so many awesome snippets from other people's workflows, you know? And yeah, like yeah, like I just run like a digital ocean droplet now and I have Tmux running and I run, you know, like four remote Claude sessions and they're just they're constantly building me features. Nathan Hessler: Nice. I think that's my next move is to figure out how to get in the cloud with this stuff. Jacob Luetzow: We what's nice is just like closing your laptop and things just keep going. And then I can even check in from the mobile app and like I do PR review, I can merge, I can deploy all from my phone. Like it's pretty nice. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, totally. I I th and there's a there's a security access Jacob Luetzow: Until you break production and then you're like, Shit, I need my computer. Nathan Hessler: There's also a security aspect that I think is really nice. Every so often I'm like, What are you doing? You I told you not to do that and it you know, Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: it forgot and did it again or whatever, so Jacob Luetzow: It forgets a lot. But I like I always only have it open PRs and I'm still manually reviewing my PRs. I'll comment on them and then back and like Nathan Hessler: Same. Jacob Luetzow: I still treat I treat my Claude like it's a developer that is like a junior. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I get that. I mean, and part of that is like like I always said even b before AI, as a having been a manager and director, PRs are not to verify that PRs are useful for verifying the code is correct. It is more important that you're sharing the context of the change so that everybody has a similar idea in their head of the structure of the current state of the app. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: Right. And if you're just going to like if you're working with an agent, that's still important that you have that mental model so you can push back at the right points and ask the right questions. And so it matters just as much that you do PR review or code review, even with an agent, unless you just don't care. And there are apps I Jacob Luetzow: I I agree. Well, Nathan Hessler: have that where I don't care. Jacob Luetzow: it's a pen like if it's like an internal tool that I'm just using, I don't care. But for a production Nathan Hessler: Yes. Jacob Luetzow: tool that I charge people money to use, I care very much. Cause like it's like you don't ever want to let down Nathan Hessler: Yep. Yeah, a hundred percent. It's a risk level, it's a risk tolerance. Jacob Luetzow: you don't want to let down your users, you know? Like it's like a Nathan Hessler: Right. Jacob Luetzow: it's a very heavy weight. You have to like have a product that works no matter what. Nathan Hessler: Right. And you don't wanna ever wanna have to send the email that says my agent did this thing wrong or something. And you so you would never send that, so it's Jacob Luetzow: gosh. That would be Nathan Hessler: you take the ownership and yeah, so if you're gonna take the ownership, you better own it. Jacob Luetzow: Right. Like, hey guys, my bad. Your data got leaked because my agent had I should also say Nathan Hessler: Totally. Jacob Luetzow: I don't my agents don't have access to my prod database. Like, yeah, Nathan Hessler: Do not do that either. Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: no way. I let people connect through my MCP and they can let their agents touch their data, but I don't. Nathan Hessler: Right. Yep. A hundred percent. Very cool. Jacob Luetzow: Which in fact, like, so I do have like a pretty like large like MCP live like tool list right now. And I'm working on like ironing out, like I said, I I really think like MCP first is a thing now, right? MCP first development. Like people are gonna stop using your a your UI and your dashboards and things like that as much as possible. So I'm like trying to make a plan around like, well, how can I fully use everything KenSwitch offers? through an MCP. And then there, like, there's hard things like file size upload and a lot of things like that. You can't really do from a mobile app like Claude, right? But I'm like gonna integrate like deep links and things that will take you directly to it in my app. You can upload it and then go back. So like it'll be a very still like walked through process that simplifies your life, hopefully. I don't know. We'll see how Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: it goes. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. I agree with you on almost all of that. I think MCPs will still be useful, but I think just as useful for people who are interested in like kind of token efficiency and whatever will be like a skills a skills endpoint where you can install a skill and having an API. I think those would be just as useful. Jacob Luetzow: Hmm. Yep. Yeah. No, I agree. I just think like the interaction in general, right? As long as an agent knows how to use your platform, that's the win. And like, yeah. Nathan Hessler: Right, right. Yeah, that's why that's why I've been using the words agent friendly instead of like MCP. But yeah, totally. Jacob Luetzow: I like that. I think they should like shift the way I'm talking because I do like the skills endpoint I never really thought about, and that's a really good idea. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I have a Jacob Luetzow: Now I gotta go back to the drawing board because now I'm having better ideas in my head. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, and those are nice too. Like with one of the things that I've done in a couple of my skills is I actually have it as part of the skill to go download to check if there's an update to the skill. Like if I'm using somebody else's skill for a product or something, my local skill is not just a copy of it. My local skill is, hey, if you need this, go download the most current version or go get, you know, Jacob Luetzow: Mm. Nathan Hessler: go get it, however that means. So that we're always working on the latest thing on the right version of things. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I mean, like I've done that. I like why am I blanking on what the what is the usage, usage rules, the Phoenix library? Like, like that concept is amazing. Just to always update and check the new usage or skills, whatever you want to call it. The AIMD, what I don't even know what people are calling agent MD file. You can tell it's been Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: a while since I've actually looked at code outside of a GitHub diff Nathan Hessler: Yeah, it's been a while. I still have my Emacs. My Emacs config has never been so clean with the help of an agent and it's been it's never been so little used. Jacob Luetzow: Did I I didn't mean to say Phoenix, I meant Ash. Yeah. I'm getting yelled at in the comments. Nathan Hessler: Are you using Ash? Jacob Luetzow: I use Ash, yeah. And I'm using Ash AI for my MCP and it's nice. Yeah. Zach Daniel will just throw Nathan Hessler: Yep. Jacob Luetzow: his name out there, usage rules, because I didn't mean to say Phoenix. Stop yelling at me. Nathan Hessler: Right. Well yeah, and usage rules it it is from Zach, but I don't think it's tied to Ash. I think it's a separate package that you can do for all of your dependencies, is my understanding. Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: Right. Yeah, you can. Yeah. I mean, I feel like everything tied to Zach and the Ash ecosystem, it's all the same umbrella, right? Nathan Hessler: Fair enough. Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean like igniter and usage rules are they you you can use those independently of Ash completely. So I don't know. I I understand what you're saying. Like they're they're all coming from Zach and they're all great tools. But yeah. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Igniter's dope too. That's another great tool. Like just Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah. Hundred percent. Jacob Luetzow: fully baked in, fully set up, just like one install command, boom. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, just to pitch conferences to you. I actually got to see a version of Igniter before he released it at at one of the Elixir comps. He was just so excited and he wanted to show somebody and I happened to be like at the table at you know it and he was like, Hey, look at this thing, it's really cool. And I was like, That's pretty dope. That's like, yeah, that's very cool. so Jacob Luetzow: That's awesome. That's very cool. And I just got a notification in ten minutes, my Grokbot has social media posts scheduled. Nathan Hessler: Nice. Very cool. yeah, I haven't tried Grok. I need to Jacob Luetzow: We just we just live off notifications. Nathan Hessler: I need to try Grok bot, maybe. I don't know. I need I yeah. Jacob Luetzow: I don't let Grok code for me, but I use it for I use it like as like my office people, if that makes sense. All my little like digital employees. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, a hundred percent. I do think the models are getting a little more there are certain ones that are better at certain tasks than others. Like I Claude Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: is definitely not good at marketing copy. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: OpenAI has been way better at that than the other two. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. I found I can't I I linked this in a previous episode. Someone made a whole git repo of skills created off like the top 10 marketing books. And I just thought it Nathan Hessler: interesting. Jacob Luetzow: was really cool. And it's like, and I like shared that repo with my like marketing grok agents, and I was like, hey, Nathan Hessler: Mm-hmm. Jacob Luetzow: what do you think is useful in this? What do Can we integrate into our process? And it like went through and it's like, well, don't use this because you don't want to have the voice of like Alex Hormonsey or however you say his last name. And like it went through all this stuff. And I was like, that's cool. So like all these marketing books that I've only read like the first 10 pages of, now my agents, you know, they know it all. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, that is nice. And if you ever want to dig in, you can like now have the agent kind of walk you through its decisions. That that'd be interesting Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: to do. Jacob Luetzow: So I've been like I've said this so many times, like building the product is the easy part. And I think that's how a lot of people feel, at least when you're on the technical side and you're a developer. But I'm at the point where I have to like I tell myself, like feature freeze, like Ken Switch has everything you want. Like obviously performance improvements, like UX improvements, you need to do those, right? Bug fixes. etc but growing my user base is like so hard so i'm like concentrating on all these things and i i like recently had adam on who is he he has a a SaaS product called bloggy and it helps you create like SEO friendly blogs and like like not a difficult product right especially like talking to a developer like I could just build a skill and have it make really good blog posts but like honestly I've been using his product the last week or so. And it like it integrates with like Google Search Console and it helps you like do like keyword research and things like that. So there's like there's things that I mean you could easily knock it off and write your own tool, but he like created an MCP since we've talked and like made it like super easy for me to integrate with. So it's like almost like, dude, well, there's no friction. I I'll probably just adopt your tool now to help me write blog posts. Nathan Hessler: Mm. I dig that. Jacob Luetzow: But and then so him and I started talking. And like I think like my biggest thing is like finding like partners that, you know, make a cut of my subscription, like pushing my product to their clients. So I've been doing this whole like I haven't like put it live yet, but I'm I learned all this stuff from Adam, like how to do cold outreach and stuff without ending up in the spam box. So I've been like all these tools like Plus vibe.ai warms your emails. And so I'm like learning all this cold outreach to spam people. And yeah, I'm gonna just reach out to like financial advisors, like estate attorneys, things like that that people are already in the mindset of like preparing for like their death or making sure their loved ones get things in the case of, you know, some trag tragedy, as I can't. as I forget how to speak, but so it's like it's cool to like learn about all these products from people. And like I I didn't even know that did you know you can have Google email addresses for like three dollars and fifty cents a month instead of ten dollars. Nathan Hessler: I did not know that. Interesting. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. So website called cheapinboxes.com allows you to get a Google email address for 350. So you can create all your I'm gonna say cold outreach instead of spamming emails. You can create all your emails off domains that aren't your main domain because you can't risk if you're like if my main domain starts Nathan Hessler: Yeah, you don't want to lose the trust. Jacob Luetzow: getting flagged as spam, then my important emails aren't gonna get to my users. So like I Nathan Hessler: Mm-hmm. Jacob Luetzow: got like Try kinswitch dot app and like all these different domains now that I can do like cold outreach with. So like, I don't know. This is like a new learning endeavor for me, which I have more time to do because it's easier to build a product because Claude takes the wheel. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. I think you're definitely in the hard part. Everybody I talk to says that building is the easy part and often you want to do the marketing upfront. Like you wanna have an audience or at least an an idea of knowing that there are customers who would pay for it before you build it. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. At least like Nathan Hessler: And so that's that's part of why I wanted that's part of what I want to do with this event software. So I have been having some conversations and some nibbles at like, that sounds interesting, I might do this instead or whatever. But yeah, trying to like flesh that out before I go build a thing. It is nice to scratch your own itch though. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Well, like Ken Switch I built because I wanted it and I started using it, but I also knew tons of people thought it was a good idea. The problem is everyone thinks it's a really good idea, but it's also like everyone procrastinates on doing things that they don't like. No one thinks they're gonna die tomorrow. Nathan Hessler: Right. Jacob Luetzow: So they procrastinate. So no one actually a lot of people won't sign up for it right away unless it's like top of mind, right? So it's like Nathan Hessler: Your vita it's the vitamin versus the pill, right? Jacob Luetzow: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Well, like, why would I take that vitamin today? Nothing's wrong with me. Nathan Hessler: Probably not. Yep. Jacob Luetzow: But yeah, it's been fun. And like it's growing. It's growing every month. It doesn't grow as Nathan Hessler: Nice. Jacob Luetzow: fast as I want it to, but it's growing. Nathan Hessler: That's the I think that's the important part. Like, you know, I look at you and I look at and you've talked to Alex, he runs Eagle, like these are bootstrap companies that are doing things and it's taking a while to get there or whatever, but they get to like work on their terms. I'm not opposed to VC. I just wish more people went into VC with their eyes wide open about how that changes the outcomes and expectations of what you're doing. Right. So Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Well, I also think when like with SaaS, like you need VC money normally to really pump marketing, right? And like make a loud big splash. And if you have a good product and most SaaS, I feel like falls into this category, you start making money day one. It's just you just have to acquire your your own users, and that's the hard part. Nathan Hessler: For sure, for sure. It's a slow grind. Right, like yeah, I'm not gonna you had Rob Walling on, he's probably said it already, so I'm not gonna say it again, but Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, I did everything wrong that Rob suggests, right? Well, like I did it, but not well. Like I, you know, I I had the email list and I had the like the landing page up before I launched my product. So I had like interested people, but I also feel like the I I made the mistake of assuming my audience is my customer. Cause it's really not. Like my audience is other devs like me. So you're less likely developers are less likely to buy a tool that they think they could make on their own or whatever it may be. I don't know. But like, so I think like I got a lot, like a lot of my email list was more like support to watch my my progress versus like I'm signing up. But Nathan Hessler: Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. Jacob Luetzow: I turn I, you know, you just shift and reacquire your new target and it's good. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Yeah. It's I yeah, your ICP is very important, it seems like. I'm Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: gonna say seems like 'cause I haven't had I haven't had an ICP, so I don't know for sure, but we'll find out. Jacob Luetzow: Just do it. You're gonna be You're gonna be dog fooding Nathan Hessler: Go ahead. Jacob Luetzow: your own product very soon. Nathan Hessler: Yep, that's the goal for sure. Jacob Luetzow: Alright. Now what? Nathan Hessler: Well, if you don't mind, I'd like to one of the things we're like I said, we're in the kind of the last push before we've got to place orders and stuff. We'd love your audience to check out XMEX. So I've got a little promo code for everybody. it's mentored friends, all one word. here, I'll put it in the chat. If I can get them in the chat. Jacob Luetzow: I always like to feel so special. We get our own code, guys. And I can't like as far as conferences go, I can't recommend. Like, I can't even imagine. Like, I'm gonna, I still want to try to make it this year. And I told you it's gonna be really last minute if I do. But it's such a good conference, and I can't imagine like your second year, like you already ironed out the kinks. It's gonna, it's gonna be so good. There, I put Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: it on the screen. Mentored friends. Okay, so what's the promo? What do what does everyone get? Nathan Hessler: it's just a fifty dollar discount on the on the ticket price. Jacob Luetzow: Sweet. Nathan Hessler: that code will work right up until the day of. The only difference is If you do it before next week or before the standard you were guaranteed swag, whereas if the later you go, the less likely you are to get your t-shirt and other such things. But we've got some new surprises. Jacob Luetzow: So get it in 'cause Nathan Hessler: We've got some new treats that are local. We love to do local food because you know part of the experience is being in Austin. So we we are getting some new Austin treats and we're getting some new Austin swag. That should be a lot of fun. Jacob Luetzow: Can we also plug your OCD ness about high quality t-shirts? Cause I think people gotta understand. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, sure, yeah. My tea so here's the here's one of This is last year. Jacob Luetzow: And it's so soft. the code isn't working for Nathan Hessler: I am very O C D about this stuff. Yeah, I'm I O C D is the wrong word. Jacob Luetzow: azmath. Uh-oh. Nathan Hessler: could no. no, let me check. I'm checking. Jacob Luetzow: He's debugging live on air. We gotta get the code to work. Nathan Hessler: Let me check. Jacob Luetzow: Azmath is also he's a local he's in Texas. I don't know if he's in Austin, I forget, but he's a cool dude. Nathan Hessler: It just worked for me, which is the worst thing to say when you're doing support. Jacob Luetzow: Uh-oh, it works on my computer. let me see. What is the what's what's the website? xmax Nathan Hessler: xmexconf dot com Jacob Luetzow: xmaxconf.com All right, let's see. I'm gonna do it. X max conf. Nathan Hessler: If you go to tickets, there's a Jacob Luetzow: works on the main page, not the checkout. Nathan Hessler: Yes, that's correct. Yep. I knew that was gonna be a problem. I should fix that. Jacob Luetzow: I see 'cause it's it's confusing. Yep. Nathan Hessler: Yep. Jacob Luetzow: Mentored friends. Nathan Hessler: One of the things we've been doing or I've been doing is giving every ticket a pepper name. so the mirisol is a red pepper and the guajilo is the ripened, dried version of that pepper. And so like putting those two names together for these two tickets was a lot of fun. I've I've learned about so much so much about peppers. Jacob Luetzow: That's awesome. I I like I I like the the tears. It's good. It's it's original. I saw that what was it, the post that went out yesterday? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jacob Luetzow: I was like, yep. I was like, yeah, Nathan, he's really diving into the Austin culture and I love it. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's been a lot of fun. yeah, and I've we gave so for Arbecue, we called our lightning talk section the burnt ends. And which, you know, that's like a nice little tasty morsel. so this for XMEX we're calling the lightning section lightning talk section choritos, which is a little Jacob Luetzow: Nice. Nathan Hessler: true. Jacob Luetzow: I like it. That's good. I hope you have some that would be a good snack, you know, with morning coffee. It's coming. I have to come now just for Nathan Hessler: We're not saying anything. You have to come and find out. Jacob Luetzow: the churros, dude. Nathan Hessler: Have to come and find out. Jacob Luetzow: I I have a soft spot for a real good churro. Nathan Hessler: We got some good churros in Austin. They're they're really good. Jacob Luetzow: Dude, just like I'm just thinking about a good breakfast burrito now too. Nathan Hessler: We do tacos here in Austin, but we've got great breakfast tacos for sure. Jacob Luetzow: You really do. I remember when I was in college, my cousin went to school in Austin and that was my first experience of breakfast burritos done right. Nathan Hessler: yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. man, we've we've got really good food in Austin. It's it's part of the reason we love living here and it's part of the stuff we want to show to people when they come and visit. Like there's definitely a Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Are you doing it in the same in the same location? Yeah. Nathan Hessler: We are. Yeah, yeah. The the it's called Capital Factory. They've also done a little bit of a split, so that I think going forward they're gonna call the what the area we're in Station Austin. but that community or that yeah, that company I guess is has been really amazing for the Austin startup and tech community. they host a bunch of meetups for free in the in their offices, which there's nobody else in town that does that that I'm aware of. We I've reached out to a lot and they've all said here's our rate and you're like I do this for free I can't afford your rate like I'm not Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: making money on this but I'm just you know again love of the game I enjoy being out with people and getting face to face it's important thing so Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, no, that's really awesome. I remember Capital Factory. I I worked for a startup that lived like across or didn't live. Their office was across the street from Capital Factory. And yeah, they've been around a long time. Nathan Hessler: They have been around for a very long time and they've been very focused on Austin as a community. They're you know, they've grown to Dallas and Houston and stuff, but they're still very Texas based Jacob Luetzow: Okay. Nathan Hessler: and headquartered in Austin and what a great company to work with on this stuff. It it really is kind of a unique to Austin space. It's not a hotel, it's not, you know, a random building or whatever, but like we're downtown. It's a wonderful space. I think you know, during RBQ they were testing robots, like walking robots and stuff. so they got, you know, the RBQ attendees got to see some of the stuff that was going on outside as part of Capital Factory, but not part of RBQ, so that was fun. yeah. And Jacob Luetzow: How terrifying are the like seeing the internet reels and stuff of the the human like the humanoid robot races and stuff? Like dude. Imagine a robot chasing you like that. I just Nathan Hessler: yeah, those are crazy. I mean, you know, you gotta test to get there. They're only gonna get better. Jacob Luetzow: hope I have a a 50 cal on me. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, b black black mirror style, those like security dogs or whatever. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, dude. terrifying. Yeah, I don't know. Warfare today is scary. Just get drone striked. No thanks. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's I don't even have anything to add to that. It's just scary. Jacob Luetzow: Terrifying. Hopefully I just we just sit like with an Xbox controller and don't have to be in person. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, for sure. Well let me ask you this. Like I'm curious, you so you went to XMEX, you went to ElixirConf, what's your takeaway? Like why do you why do you do conferences? What what's what's the important fields for you? Jacob Luetzow: so I feel like they're both very different, right? And honestly, confession, I ended up hanging out in the hallways and by the coffee way more than like I skipped so many talks at Elixir Conf. And I was just like meeting people, having good conversations. So I feel like the networking at ElixirConf was. Off the charts. Like I I met everyone. Like, I feel like I met like almost everyone I've done a podcast with in real life. And so that's really cool. I really enjoyed that. So I feel like that was good. Then XMEX single track, you're not skipping talks, right? So I feel like you kind of get the experience of both because I feel like it's small enough to meet, like, I didn't meet everyone at ElixirConf. It's just impossible. But Nathan Hessler: Right. Jacob Luetzow: XMEX is small enough you meet everyone. If if you're willing, right? Like you get to talk Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah. Jacob Luetzow: to everyone in between talks and everyone's on the same track. So you're talking, you're having your coffee breaks, hanging out, but then the next talk starts and you I don't want to say you're forced to watch it, but it's more it feels like a more organized day. So you go and listen to a talk instead of like being a slacker and skipping it in the hallway. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. The other nice thing about a single track is that everybody's gonna seem that see that same talk, so it becomes a common point of conversation. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: whereas like if you know, if there's two or three tracks, who knows where you went to? So you're like, what'd you like? I didn't see that one. And I don't again, I'm not I don't wanna take I love Elixir Conf, I've gone for ten years. I'm not saying that's you shouldn't go. It's just a different experience. there's Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: value to it in just different ways. But yeah. The n one of the nice things about running a single track is everybody seems sees the same talk and so it becomes a point of conversation for everybody. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. One thing that like I enjoyed about ElixirConf was like the room of vendors or sponsors, you could call it. But like Nathan Hessler: Mm. Mm-hmm. Jacob Luetzow: to see so many people hiring, I thought that was cool. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's I would love to get more of that. I'm hoping that, you know, I think Elixir and across the board hiring is going up, but I'm hoping, you know, as we go keep going that that continues to happen because the best sponsors to have are sponsors that are hiring. It it's you know, it just adds Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Yeah. Nathan Hessler: another level to the excitement and to the experience. Jacob Luetzow: Well, I think like it I've seen like so many people have been like taught like they because since I do like recruiting and stuff on the side with Elixir Mentor, everyone's asking me about the jobs and like how they've been applying like hundreds of jobs and zero responses. And it's a it's a tough market because I think what's happening is when job boards are public and you have just forms. They're just getting like saturated with AI BS, like where people are just applying with garbage. And I think they're the filters on the other end aren't good. So a lot of good candidates are getting filtered out in the AI filter and actually never seeing people's desk, you know? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I would add to that, I think interviews themselves are not great tools for evaluation. I think they're as good as they're the the versions there are good versions of interviews, but even the best ones are poor tools at actual evaluation of can you do the job. Jacob Luetzow: I agree. Nathan Hessler: and networking then becomes even more important, right? Because it is actually Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: probably the best signal. You have somebody that's coming to you and saying, Hey, I worked with this person or I know this person. I believe they'd be a great fit. That's probably Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: a better signal than any of the other signals. Like you said, the resume pool, the even the interview process isn't as good as a referral. Jacob Luetzow: Well, I've gotten to the point where I don't know if I want to do recruiting in the traditional manner. Like, cause I've always like advertised, like, look, I do pre-vetited recruitment. Like, you hire me. I promise that they have the skills that you need. You do the culture fit. And as long as you like them, you got a great dev, you know? But I don't know, the last year, I just I absolutely Do not want to do code review because I used to like send out a project and everything's just one-shotted AI generated now. And like, and I'm not even knocking that, like, but you don't know if it's a good developer or not at this point. So I just feel like you're wasting your time reading AI slop. And I'd much rather like I will place my friends that I've worked with in the past or I've seen projects they've worked on. just, you know, kind of off like social merit, right? And be like, this guy's good. You're gonna like him. Great fit. And I almost want to just go that way. So like it's almost more beneficial if you're looking for a job. I don't know, up your social media game, go socialize, go to XMEX, go to these conferences where you like are shaking people's hands. Because if I meet you in person and we start like we have form of friendship, it's easier for me to land you a job, honestly. 'Cause I can just vouch for Nathan Hessler: hundred percent. Jacob Luetzow: you. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I I'm definitely probably on the extreme side here, but I can honestly say that my last I think outside of one or two jobs in my whole career, and I've had probably eight or nine since I've become a software developer. So let's say seven of those have all been through conference connections. Jacob Luetzow: That's awesome. Nathan Hessler: Whether it's at the vendor table or through a friend that knows or heard or just meeting somebody that's hiring and then Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: reaching out like that. All the versions have happened, but they've all had some connection to me attending a conference. so Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, it helps a lot. And like to kind of like just double down on that, I just like me when I started the Elixir Mentor channel and then the podcast, I feel like it's the same thing. And like that's how I've gotten like a lot of my jobs is like people see my face, they associate me with Elixir. They they might not know that I can program, but they assume I can, you know. I don't know. Nathan Hessler: Sure. Jacob Luetzow: So yeah, it works. Just Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, I like I know it's not the best for everybody and and not people some people are are more attuned to that kind of thing, but I do think kind of being out there is just a really good way to, you know and I do that through conferences. That's how I do it. I'm not doing content. I'm doing conferences and kind of the win for me is not that it's a financial benefit. It's that it connects me and puts me in front of people that, you know, we can have conversations and maybe figure something else out. It's very indirect for me, but Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. I'm curious, like and we don't have to talk about this if you don't want to, but like financially, do you break even or do you sometimes do you make a little bit of money when you run a conference? Like what's your overall goal there? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I mean the goal would be to make it financially worth my while. That said, Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: I am let's see. I have yet to lose money on a conference. I Jacob Luetzow: That's good. Nathan Hessler: mostly make a little bit more, right? Like a lot of money comes in, most of that goes out, right? Like there is like Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: there's a cost to venues and you know, food and and swag Jacob Luetzow: Right. Nathan Hessler: and just, you know, there's a lot of expense there, especially if you're doing videos and stuff, doing all that. It adds up really quick. I would say, you know, for me, there's the there's a love of the game. Like conferences, as I said, were very important for me. And I want to make sure I we continue to do these things. so like Jacob Luetzow: I think for anything you're doing though, you have to love it or you're not gonna keep doing Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: it. Nathan Hessler: That's fair. That's fair. You know, I like, especially when it gets hard. It like I think there are you have plenty of things you can do if when they're easy. So I think there are a lot of people who were in software because like, man, that's that was a great place to be for a while. And now it's not as great. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: And I think a lot of people are kind of being like, maybe software is not for me. but Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: that's true. I totally agree with you. The the you want you need to love it if you're gonna do it through the hard parts. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: and Yeah, conferences are super important for that reason for me. Like they help me, I wanna help others. Jacob Luetzow: What do you think like your overall like how many hours do you put into XMEX, like the one conference? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, the one conference, I will say I purposely don't track this. no, I so there's a reason for this. I so Jacob Luetzow: Well, you gotta. Come on, you don't. my gosh. I obsess over data, so I would want to know. Nathan Hessler: there's a reason I don't it's because I don't wanna know. Like I probably put in Yeah, that's exactly what I don't wanna know. It's not worth it. It's honestly, like if Jacob Luetzow: But we gotta figure out how much you make per hour. Is it a dollar? Nathan Hessler: it were a financial win, if it were for financial reasons, I wouldn't be doing it. Like Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. No, I mean and that's Nathan Hessler: My goal Jacob Luetzow: my that's this channel, my YouTube channel and podcast. I don't make any I mean, I make some money Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: off of views, but it doesn't pay for anything. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, like the hourly rate I can tell you is below ten dollars an hour. I like I've done enough Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, I believe that. Nathan Hessler: of b of the back of the napkin math that I can tell you that. Jacob Luetzow: That's just that's just a normal founder rate, you know? I saw, dude, I I don't even know who the Nathan Hessler: Yeah, exactly. And and again it's that there's a lot of indirects. actually Jacob Luetzow: person was, but it was like one of someone I follow on X commented on it. And this guy was like complaining that he's sick of putting in 10 hour days to like see no like forward momentum or growth in like a SaaS product he's building, and that he'll probably just go back and work for the family, like. construction business. And I was, I like made a comment. I was like, only 10 hours a day? Question mark. It's like, what? Like that's just like a normal nine to five job. If you're like doing your own thing, I'm working from the moment I wake up to the moment I turn my light off. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I think you have to, right? Like, well, first off, I'll just re-quote Rob Walling again, but he says, like, you know, funded companies die when the money runs out, bootstrap companies run when the founder's motivation runs out. And that guy's motivation Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: ran out. So that makes a lot of sense. but I do think like, you know, there's this like nine to five is what keeps a thing that's already moving moving. Right? Like there's there's like the amount of gas that's required to get the car to sixty is not the same amount of gas that's required to keep it at sixty once it's there. Does that Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: make sense? Like you just have to put in the effort and it's gonna be a lot more effort than once it's already where you want it to be. Keeping it going once it's going is way different than getting it started. It Jacob Luetzow: Right. It's like starting a fire with s a little flint, you know, a little sparks. It's gonna take a while to get it lit. I just actually pre ordered Rob Nathan Hessler: Yeah. And you know, sometimes you'll come across a Jacob Luetzow: Walling's new book and I'm excited about that one. Idea Detraction, I think it's called. Yeah. Nathan Hessler: I haven't pre-ordered it yet, but it's on my list. if you're interested, you know MicroCroft's gonna come to Austin next year. You should come, I'll be there. Jacob Luetzow: I yes so No, yeah, April, right? Nathan Hessler: April. Yeah, yeah. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. So I wanted to. I was gonna I was gonna book it and everything, but I think I'm gonna be out of the country exactly on those dates. But I th I I I wanna for sure do the US one the following year because I've heard such good things. Like Alex Alex Copemos was talking big about it, and then like Derek from Savvy Cal. Him and Nathan Hessler: Mm-hmm. Yeah, Derek Reimer, Jacob Luetzow: Him and Rob Nathan Hessler: yep. Jacob Luetzow: are buddies, but they just said the conference is so good. So I wanna I wanna go for sure. Are you going? Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I got my ticket. I I I I ended up spending a little bit more 'cause the prices went up. I was like, I'm gonna get a ticket and I kept waiting and I kept waiting. And then I realized there was like a companion aspect. And so I talked to my partner, I was like, Do you wanna go? It's in Austin, so you can just kinda come for the extra the evening events or whatever. you won't be able to go to talks. And she said yes, and then by the time I sat down to actually buy the tickets, they had gone up and I was like, just you know, I should have Jacob Luetzow: Bummer. Yeah, I was gonna Nathan Hessler: just executed. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, I was gonna bring my wife and a baby boy and then I was like, it's not gonna work this year. Cause I think like it's fun to turn a conference into a a little vacation too. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, for sure. I I try to arrive the day before the conference starts and leave at least the day after it ends. That just to give you some time to really experience a little bit of the city, like, you know, Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: Chicago. I've never been there. It was just fun to do some things in Chicago and go out and meet a Chicago dog and, you know, get on the river walk. And that was you know, that's as much a part of the experience as anything. Even with Railsworld, yeah. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, that's awesome. My Chicago trip was in and out. I did not, I just didn't, I couldn't make it work. So I I was just glad I got there. But I like arrived the night before and then I left like I don't even know, right after it ended to head to the airport. But it was a it was still a fun trip. Nathan Hessler: It was yeah, that was a great trip. Even the Rails World, which was in Austin, like I stayed downtown, which so I got to see a hotel that I would have never got to see. I got to see Austin Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: from a different perspective. You know how you like you live somewhere and you get good at your ruts, you just rut those in, right? And you so there's like places I always go and then there's places I never go. And like having done Rails World, I felt like I got to visit Austin a little bit. It was it was kind of Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, that's cool. Nathan Hessler: fun. Jacob Luetzow: Sometimes it's fun to do like a little like stay I not really staycation for a conference, but you know what I mean. Like 'cause you're you're I'm guessing you're just like in the suburbs around Austin, right? So you yeah, you probably Nathan Hessler: That's right. Jacob Luetzow: like rarely get into the city. Maybe you do more than that, but Nathan Hessler: I try to. I try to get down there once or twice a week. I yeah. I'm yeah. Jacob Luetzow: nice. That's I don't leave my house that much. No Nathan Hessler: I again like I I really I just I really do believe in getting in person. So I run a couple meetups, I go to a couple meetups, they're all downtown. Just it's I'm not an extrovert. I have learned to do extroverted things as I've grown and matured, but I just I don't know. I find value in having friends and discussions and all that stuff in person. It's just like this is great that we can do this. but man, consider what it would have what it would be like if we were sitting at the same table sipping on some coffee and just be a different experience. 'Cause Jacob Luetzow: That's my goal. Nathan Hessler: afterwards we could go grab food and we could, you know, it's just it's just different. Jacob Luetzow: My goal is to someday like if I can afford to fly in my guests, I would do that. That would be so cool. Like an in-person Nathan Hessler: Nice. Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: podcast. I don't know if it'll be Elixir Mentor. I have some ideas Nathan Hessler: Mm-hmm. Jacob Luetzow: to like make make it a little more widespanning for viewership, but Nathan Hessler: Mm-hmm. Jacob Luetzow: I think it would be fun. It would be pretty cool. Nathan Hessler: That would be very cool. Agreed. Yeah. Jacob Luetzow: Because like honestly, I get to talk to really cool people just because I decided I'm gonna do a podcast. Like a nobody starts a podcast and now I get to talk to all these really cool people. Nathan Hessler: Yep. Yeah. Then that's what this is great for. This digital conference is great for just meeting people you would never meet. but Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: it doesn't replace getting out and getting in person. Jacob Luetzow: No, that's true. It's really enjoyable to just hang out, have a beer with someone and chat tech. Like Nathan Hessler: Yeah. I did that last night. It was a it was really good fun. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, that's awesome. And like I met like a coworker that I worked with for like two years, never met him in person, and then hung out with him at Elixir Conf. So that's cool. Nathan Hessler: very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. That was like yeah. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. See, it's hard. You don't you don't meet people. Like everyone that I work with, I've never met in person. Like it's kind of wild. Nathan Hessler: You're gonna get me on my rants. I'd so a lot of companies went remote during COVID and so they think COVID remote is successful remote and they're not the same. The the remote companies that work and are successful figured out that you still have to get in person. you know, between one and three times a year. You still have to Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: get together to build those relationships in a way that can't be done over a Zoom call. you and I even, like you said, we had conversations, we would have, you know, it's just a very different process. And it was still valuable. Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: It's great that we can hop on here and it's great that we can meet in person. and Jacob Luetzow: But we come here and yeah, we have side rants and we still chat, right? But we come on here still with a mission and like a topic on mind, right? So you're still like kind of forcing the conversation. And I feel like, you know, enter a beer or two and a group of nerds, that conversation's gonna get wild. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, for sure. Right. And if it's more than three people, like on a like you there's still only one conversation you can have in a virtual conference call. But when you're in person, you're in or at dinner, there's like two like once you have four people, there's probably one or two conversations going on and it's very fluid. Everybody understands, you Jacob Luetzow: Mm-hmm. Nathan Hessler: pivot. Even those two conversations will pivot between two people and you'll start talking, you know, like it's very fluid and and it's just great. I yeah. So I do think, you know, successful remote includes some on sites or some off sites. They're just mandatory parts of being like part of a team. Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. I think every if you're like I have like goals for Kin Switch to stay stay solo till like s I hit certain numbers. But I think like when I hire obviously like I want like when I hire it's gonna I want top talent, whatever. So I want like the world to be my oyster, right? But I think it is important to like have at least a meet a meetup in person, like Maybe a nice resort somewhere once a year. Nathan Hessler: Or or I know companies that did this, you meet up at XMEX or at ElixirConf, right? It's a great like there's training, there's Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: get in person, you do a team dinner one night and just like get the team together. It's there's yeah. I mean I I can't say enough how much Jacob Luetzow: Yeah, that's a good way to do it too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love remote. I would never take a job that isn't remote, but I also like I see like the the importance to having in person interaction is still needed for sure. I feel Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Yep. A hundred percent. Jacob Luetzow: like we're real friends now, you know, because we've met in real life. Otherwise, we're just like Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Jacob Luetzow: online acquaintances. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I don't know if I would go that far, but I agree with you. I do think our friendship got more personal. I I don't know how to say that. I thought we were friends before, but I think we are better friends now. Like just having been in person. Jacob Luetzow: I mean, yeah, we were friends before, but you know what I mean. There's like a Nathan Hessler: Yeah, yeah. Jacob Luetzow: guess it's kind of wild a lot, like at least like professionally, my professional friends or developer friends, most of them are just online relationships, right? Like a Nathan Hessler: Mm-hmm. Jacob Luetzow: Discord channel, get bringing on podcast guests, but yeah. You gotta seal, you gotta seal the deal with a handshake. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, a hundred percent. and one more thing I've been meaning to mention, I slipped my mind there for a moment. We are also doing a couple community free tickets. We just have a a little forum. If if the cost of the ticket is what's keeping you from coming to XMEX, please fill that out. We would we have a couple tickets to give out and we would love to have more people there that you know, just do Help some more people do the conference thing and if it's a financial problem, let's Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Nathan Hessler: let's figure it out. Jacob Luetzow: That's awesome. That's very cool to do. I love that. Sweet. I think anything else? One do one more pump. You gotta just Nathan Hessler: That's Jacob Luetzow: do a promo, give your website promo code again, all that good stuff. Nathan Hessler: Yeah. Yeah. website is xmexconf.com. Promo code is mentored friends. Put it in the promo code on the website, not in the pop-up. Regional conferences like this, they're really a community event, right? This is what I would call community plus. The goal is to come and hang out with Elixir friends, learn something about Elixir, potentially, you know, make some new friends and get to see Austin. Like that's part of the experience is like getting to see a city you may never visit as part of your vacation or whatever, but it's a unique spot. there's a lot to love about Austin. I'm a big fan and love to share everything going on around here. Jacob Luetzow: Dude, Austin is awesome. Guy and it's a it's still a coin flip. It's a fifty-fifty chance that I will be there. I'm gonna be like, I'm Nathan Hessler: I would love to have you there. Yeah. So I think I think anybody Jacob Luetzow: gonna be messaging Nathan like two days before, be like, all right, I'm coming. Nathan Hessler: Nice. Well, Send me your like let's talk offline and I'll get some information. That way, if you are able to make it, we can make sure you get get the good stuff. Jacob Luetzow: All right, sounds good. Awesome. So guys, sign up. It's it's it's a worthwhile conference. It's a lot of fun. Like if I had to pick between like a huge conference and XMEX, I would pick X Max. Like if I had a budget for one conference a year, X Max. Nathan Hessler: Nice. I appreciate that. That means a lot. Jacob Luetzow: So yeah, no, dude, you you deserve it. You deserve the props because you do a good job. And I also know how much work you put into it and I'm way too lazy for that. Nathan Hessler: Thanks. Awesome. Jacob Luetzow: After I knocked someone saying that they're pissed that they're not g making any strides forward putting in ten hour workdays. Nathan Hessler: That's well, I know you're doing more than 10 hours. So you've got plenty of areas where you're I was talking to a friend who was like, I just want to get down to three to two. I want to get down to like six hours a day. He runs his own company. And I'm like, Yeah, that doesn't really count because you wouldn't just spend Jacob Luetzow: It's a scam. No. Nathan Hessler: the extra time building another company. He's like, Yeah, that's right. That's what I want to do. Like, that's not a six-hour workday. That's two like still a twelve hour day. You're just spending it in two different places. Jacob Luetzow: What's worse, I think, with like AI and agents now is even when I'm doing things like with the family and like social things, I'm still always thinking about what I'm working on and I'm still like checking in on progress for things that are happening on my phone. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I was thinking about that. I purposely not put it on my phone for that reason. I don't want to like take my work with me to dinner. the phone is already a big enough a distraction. Jacob Luetzow: I think it's better than scrolling social media. Nathan Hessler: you think it's better? Okay. Jacob Luetzow: Maybe not. Could be more toxic. It's just what I tell myself. Like I'm being productive versus just scrolling and like trolling people on on X or whatever. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, that's totally fair. Maybe it's it's I can see how it would be better in those aspects. My fear is that like it would be more of a reason to be in my phone rather than in the moment. Jacob Luetzow: That is true. I do try. Like if well, I don't pull my phone out when I'm eating dinner and hanging out with people because I feel like that's just so it's the saddest thing ever. Like if you're like going out to a restaurant with like couples or friends, right? And there's like that one couple not talking to each other both on their phones. Like I don't ever want to be that couple. Nathan Hessler: Yeah, I've been that couple many times. It's you know, sometimes it's just like, well, we just need a moment to decompress. But I agree with you. I'd rather be talking and it's definitely something Jacob Luetzow: Yeah. Yeah. Nathan Hessler: to work on. Jacob Luetzow: For sure. All right, Nathan. This was fun. As always, I enjoy having you on and XMEX will go off without any hitches. It'll be so awesome. And I'm sure it's like gonna even be better than last year, because you can't do anything great your first time. And I feel like it already it was. So I'm excited to to hear about it or see it in person. We'll see. Nathan Hessler: Awesome man. Awesome. Thanks. Jacob Luetzow: All right, guys, thanks for tuning in. And I don't have any podcasts scheduled for next week, but I do have the following. But who knows? Sometimes I just get last minute schedules in, and I feel like I didn't have one this week. And Nathan was like, Can you do a promo for me? I was like, I can do one better. Why don't you be my guest? But all right, guys, thank you, and have a good weekend.