Jasmine Jain: Welcome back to Pushing Over the Box. Today, I'm so excited to be joined by Roni Mahler started her career with Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, then became a dancer with ⁓ the National of Washington, finally moving to American Ballet Theater, where she became a soloist. ⁓ Roni taught prestigious schools, such as the Juilliard School, the Alvin Ailey School, Ballet Academy East, Kansas State University. Ronnie also recently published a memoir titled, Tomboy Ballerina, My Life from Baseball to American Ballet Theater and Beyond. I'm so excited to be talking to her, so let's get right into it. Hi Ronnie, thank you so much for being here. Roni Mahler: Hi Jasmine, it's my pleasure. Can I tell you a funny story about how to pronounce my last name? Okay, nobody knows how to pronounce my last name. ⁓ there used to be two brothers in major, pitchers in Major League Baseball that called themselves Mailer, and that sealed it. But I say to everybody, you go to the doctor and he says, stick out your tongue Jasmine Jain: Yes. Roni Mahler: So it's Mahler, I have a funny story about that. You know, they have different accents all around the country, right? And up in Maine, have you ever been to Maine? Well, they speak with a very strange accent, okay? ⁓ So we had a summer home in Maine and my went to the post office to open up Jasmine Jain: Yes. Roni Mahler: her post office box so she'd be able to pick up her mail. the postman's name was Alan. And said, well, Mrs. Mala, we're all set now. You're ready. And she said, we pronounce it And he said, round these here parts, it's Mala. So. Up in Maine, it's Mela. Okay, fire away, Jasmine, fire away. Jasmine Jain: I love you. So when did you first start dancing and did you fall in love from the very beginning? Roni Mahler: When I was four, my mother took my six-year-old sister and I to a children's matinee by American Ballet Theater. And my younger sister was only two, so she didn't come. She was too young. And I remember the program to this day. It was Les Sylphides, Peter and the Wolf, and Aurora's Wedding. which is the third act, the final act of sleeping beauty. And the curtain went up on Lacell Feed. I was enchanted. Everybody was in those little white costumes with wings, ⁓ said, this is what I want to do. And that was it. Never another thought. Never another thought. My mother always wanted me to keep up my social life. So when I was seven, I would get an invitation to a birthday party for a Friday night, but I had class. So I'd say, I can't go. She'd say, well, maybe you could come just for dessert. And she'd make me show up late for dessert. She was right, but ⁓ was like, this, I wasn't interested at all. Terrible, terrible, but it paid off. Jasmine Jain: what did your early training journey look like? Roni Mahler: Mmm. you're asking ⁓ the right questions. My mother was trying to enroll me in a ballet school, but I was a very good mimic. So every Saturday morning she'd take me to a different New York City ballet school. And one of them I remember the teacher held her hands like this. I held my hands like this. My mother yanked me out of there. I never saw that school again. Finally, there was a man, a very famous man named Anatole Chujoy. And he had published the dance encyclopedia with a very famous woman, P.W. Manchester. ⁓ they had a weekly dance newspaper called Dance News. And my mother wrote a letter, she was always writing letters, to Mr. Truejoy and she said, my daughter, they tell me my daughter has talent and I need to find a good ballet teacher, what is your recommendation? And he agreed to see her. And she came in and he said, Mrs. Mahler, in my position, I'm not allowed to recommend. But I can tell you a fact. Maria Swaboda is the best children's teacher this side of the Mississippi River. So mom went off and she sent my sisters and I to lunch with our grandmother and she said to the receptionist, I'd like to look at it. I'd like to view Madame Swaboda teaching please, because I want to enroll my daughter. Apparently, Later on I found out that the receptionist said to Madame, we've got a live one here. She wants to see you teach first. Well, my mother sat in that chair and watched Madame with her extraordinary port de bras. and she was enchanted. And that's where I started and I stayed with Madame Subodh my entire career until she passed away. I even brought her to Kansas State University for a 10-day in-service program and it was wonderful. So she guided me and was extraordinary and I have so many of my teaching ideas that still go back to her class. Jasmine Jain: And who were your biggest inspirations growing up? Roni Mahler: Aside from Madame Subodh. Frederick Franklin was of Ballet Russe and my mentor. Madame sold her studio to Mr. Denham who owned the Ballet Russe ⁓ I was 12 because he always wanted a school in New York. So suddenly I got to teach with Mr. Caton, Mr. Swoboda, ⁓ of these stars of the Ballet Russe. Not Mr. Caton, he came sooner because he was older. But, and Franklin inspired me and later on When he started his National Ballet of Washington, D.C., he invited me to be a soloist with the company. And he was my Dr. Kapelius for my swan nilda when I danced Kapelia. And then, of course, there are so many others that I encountered. But I would say, ⁓ and also George Balanchine. because when I was in National Ballet, he came to coach us in an all-balancing program, and I got to study two days with him, coaching me in choleric, in four temperaments, the first solo variation of pas de dis, and in But in We had a small company, I got to do both the Russian Girl and the Dark Angel, which I found out later on was very unusual. And he coached me in all of that. So Mr. Balanchine, Mr. Franklin, and Madame Sorbonne. Jasmine Jain: And what was it like getting your first contract? Roni Mahler: They made me change my name. My name was... M-A-H-L-E-R. That's because the first child was a girl and my father said the next child's going to be a boy and the only name they had picked out was Roger. I showed up. my mother had seen some false eyelashes in the drugstore the day before I was born and they were called Ronnie. She liked the name but she didn't like the way they spelled it. They spelled it R-O-N-I. She said, looks like spaghetti, macaroni. So she changed it to R-O-N-N-I-E and gave me the middle name Joan. Well, I get to sign my contract and Mr. Denham says, what name are you going to use on the program? And I said, Ronnie Mahler. He said, it looks like a boy. said, well, my middle name is Joan. You could use Ronnie Joan Mahler. He said, too much space on the program for a first-year girl. He was a grump. So Mr. stared off into the horizon and said, Ronnie, R-O-N-I, Ronnie. And they changed it back to Ronnie. But the problem was Rice-A-Roni had come out in San Francisco in 1958. This was 1960, and everybody pronounced it R-O-N-I. My mother was furious. wrote letters to me on tour, dear Ronzoni Spaghetti. But signed my first contract as R-O-N-I, Mahler. Then years later, I joined ABT. And Lucia Chase, the legendary director, says, I'd like you to change the spelling of your name to R-O-N-N-I-E. I said, no. She said, well, we have a ballerina, Toni Lander, and she spells it T-O-N-I. And that's too much like her name, but I wouldn't. So I stayed R-O-N-I. So funny you should ask. Jasmine Jain: And was it a big adjustment for you going from a school to a company? Roni Mahler: I was 18 years old from New York, had never been west of New Jersey. And they put me on an airplane and fly me to Los Angeles for the beginning of a four and a half month tour by bus, except for two weeks in LA and one week in San Francisco. Was I homesick. But came to life in the theater and was my godsend because it was a whole new magical world for me. ⁓ I it at great length in my book, as you can imagine. It was magical. So I didn't have to worry. I did have to worry about ⁓ in ⁓ the wrong crowd. Because some dancers are very negative and they only see the dark side of everything. And they feel victimized and everything is unfair and they their whole life. I didn't want to be around that. stayed with my, madame said, stick with the gym. Jim, Jimmy Cap was a, wonderful man who was a soloist and he was very upbeat and very disciplined. And I stuck with the gym and I just, I made it a point of realizing that my whole life as a ballet dancer, aside from enjoying the magic of my profession would be staying realistic about which... dancers were downers which dancers were uppers and finding the uppers and sticking with them. So that that was the big adjustment but I I did fine. I did fine. Jasmine Jain: Yeah. what made you switch companies? ⁓ Roni Mahler: You asked the best questions. The first time was sad because the Ballet Russe was closing its doors. It had run out of money. And all the directors came to see our last weekend of performances at the Brooklyn Academy of Music because knew that we'd be unemployed. Now. Mr. Franklin had already choreographed a new ballet for us with three couples called Tribute to It's escaping me. Symphonic variations, but can't think of the... ⁓ composer right now it'll come to me. 84. When you're 84 things take a while to... yeah okay but it's all right it's an adventure. So anyway was one of two side couples, soloist couples, and then there was a principal. Jasmine Jain: you Roni Mahler: when he knew that the Ballet Russe was closing, he was going to start his company the following September in rehearsals and open the following January. ⁓ he wanted to make sure that he had his tribute cast with him. So he had signed all of us to early contracts. So Monday morning, So we close at the Brooklyn Academy of Music on Sunday and I got to do tribute and big swans and a whole bunch of things. And on Monday morning, my phone rings. Hello, Ronnie Mahler? Yes, this is Mrs. Dodario calling on behalf of Mr. Joffrey. Mr. Joffrey saw you dance over the weekend at the Brooklyn Academy of Music and wishes for you to join our company in time for our tour to India. So he's inviting you to take company class tonight at 5 o'clock. I heard this voice say, I guess it came from me, thank you so much Mrs. D'Addario, but I've just signed a contract with Frederick Franklin for the National Ballet of Washington, so please thank Mr. Joffrey from the bottom of my heart, but I have to decline the offer. Did I just turn down Robert Joffrey? Yes. Was I not the luckiest puppy in the world? But anyway, it was better that I went with Mr. Franklin because he continued to be my mentor and he was sensational. He was the perfect director for me. The second reason. was I was getting married. though my marriage ended in divorce, God wanted me to have my son Eric. And to this day I have a 57-year-old son Eric. But I left the National Ballet to get married and I guested with them when they came to New York, da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da. And then... after I had Eric. Lucia invited me to join the company. I never really auditioned. By that time, Madame was teaching at the American Ballet Theater School. And I guess she just saw me in class. So I never really had to audition. So again, lucky, lucky puppy. Lucky, lucky puppy. Yeah. Jasmine Jain: And do you have or did you have a favorite ballet to dance or to watch? Roni Mahler: Let's go with to dance. really hard to choose. I'm going to say this. My favorite role was Mirta Queen of the Willys in Giselle because I had this amazing jump. the boys in ABT used to come into the wings to watch me jump. And it's such a challenging role because it's a dramatic role. You have to be ice cold because you're dead. But you can't be, you can't look angry because angry is a human emotion. So you have to. but you're in complete control of all those willies and you're really angry at every man. ⁓ that all these willies were engaged to and then the marriage never happened. And you can't show anger. you have to look completely impervious, matter how hard you're dancing. So loved that role. And my ballet dance was Swan Lake. And I... ended up dancing the lead in ABT on my third performance because Cynthia Gregory sprained her ankle. That's in the book. won't go... Did you get to read the book yet? so you know what I'm talking about. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And interestingly I will say ⁓ this about I had 24 hours to learn Odette. Now, I knew the second act because I had just guessed it. Jasmine Jain: Yeah. Roni Mahler: with a New Jersey company, and ABT knew that. So they knew I had second act under my belt. But I had an hour of rehearsal on Friday to learn all of act four. Saturday, the matinee wasn't me, but the evening was me. So there was no rehearsing on Saturday. there was no... So I had a wonderful partner who just talked me through all these pas de deux. And ⁓ learned the storm and this and falling off the cliff. And you read it all. Anyway, so it's very interesting, very interesting. It's all in the book. But there no real time really to rehearse Black Swan, even though had performed Black Swan by itself in concert. Okay? but black swan is another animal, okay? You gotta be rehearsing, blah, blah, blah. So Eleanor D'Antuono, who was one of the principals, she was dancing the matinee, full-length, all three acts, Odette Odile. She said, she came forward and said, I can do Odile for Ronnie on Saturday night. And they said, but you've just danced the full ballet. She said, I can do it. And she stepped in. And as a matter of fact, in the early days, There was historical reference to two different ballerinas, one the Odette roles and one for the Odile roles. So it even had historical precedence. So I did all three acts with ABT, but on my third performance in the company, after doing only big swans under my belt, I did Odette in two and four. Thrill of my life. No wonder you're asking such good questions. Jasmine Jain: did you have a favorite costume to wear? Roni Mahler: Well, never got to dance in this costume. But years later when I was working with Denis Nahat as artistic associate, we did Gayete Prisienne and the seller costume that the current flower seller got to wear was so gorgeous. ⁓ The one wore in ABT before Christian Lacroix, redid the costumes was pretty sad. It was from the olden days. But the one that Dennis had for our current was gorgeous and I got to put it on once and so that was my favorite costume. I loved that costume. It was gorgeous but I never got to dance in it. ⁓ the favorite costume that I got to dance in... I love fairies. which means I love elves. And there's an old Ballet Russe ballet called Les Elf. And I speak about it in the book. it had beautiful wings ⁓ a velvet bodice, and had gossamer ⁓ skirt, I loved being that elf because it made me feel like a fairy. So I love that costume. Jasmine Jain: Yes. do you have a favorite memory from any of the companies that you danced with? Roni Mahler: dancing at the White House the National Ballet of Washington. ⁓ when we booked it. It was September of 1962. Is that right? Wrong. September of 1963. Okay. I was so excited because I adored John F. Kennedy Jr., the president, and I adored Jackie, his wife. And then came the assassination in November. So by the time we danced there, in February of 64, it was a new administration. But it couldn't put a damper on the fact that I was dancing in the White House. What was amazing was I was 20 years old. maybe two weeks shy of my 21st birthday. And Lady Bird Johnson didn't come to greet us. Neither did the oldest daughter, Linda Bird, Linda Bird Johnson. But the youngest daughter, Lucy Baines Johnson, she was only 16, they sent the 16 year old to greet us. And she did such a wonderful professional grownup job. I kept saying, she's only four years younger than me. Wow. So that made it extra special. extra special and it was a memory I will never ever forget. Jasmine Jain: Yeah. ⁓ you ever go through a major injury and how did you deal with that? Roni Mahler: Hahaha You did read the book. So. And it was caused by a doctor, which was really annoying. But some doctor, I had a little cyst and he gave me an injection. It was 1964, they didn't know much. It froze my Achilles in its own sheath with adhesions. So my Achilles was stuck and I couldn't releve, I couldn't demi plie. And it took 10 months to free that Achilles. As painful as it was, I made myself watch performance I wasn't in because I learned so much ⁓ performing from seeing what's important to the audience and that what I'm feeling on stage the audience has no idea about. So it was a very valuable experience, albeit a one. And It taught me. I remembered thinking my life was over. Well, it wasn't. What's 10 months, right? So it taught me patience. It taught me resilience. And what the biggest lesson I learned was that when I was able to go back and start putting myself back in shape, You know how you have bad habits that you've had since you're seven years old and you've never been able to shake them? Well, when you stop dancing for ten months, those bad habits go away. Now you start practicing again and your body is at zero, but your mind is not. Your mind is smarter than when you were seven. Your mind is smarter than ever. and you end up getting rid of those bad habits that were ingrained that you could never get rid of, they're gone. And you actually come back a better dancer. The other thing I learned was the only way to come back from an injury ⁓ to start with demi plie first. If demi plie is difficult, take your time until you can do it correctly. ⁓ you stick your pelvis out, Instead of bending your knees, technique will never be honest and you'll hurt yourself again. So two important lessons I learned and therefore nothing is ever a mistake because mistakes are how We learn. there's an old saying, wisdom is the gift we get from our mistakes. And say, how come you're so smart, Ronnie? And I say, I'm not smart, I'm just old. And I've made more mistakes than you. So I'm wiser because the only thing wrong with a mistake is not learning from it. If you learn from it, it was not a bad thing that it happened. And so I've kept that promise my whole life, and it's really, really helped me. Jasmine Jain: and what inspired you to write a book? Roni Mahler: again, I'd been toying with the idea. It's game I play with my students. I'm thinking of an eight-letter word that begins with P and ends with C that means worldwide affliction. Jasmine Jain: pandemic. Roni Mahler: Very smart. Uh huh, see? So anyway... The pandemic hit. We were confined to our rooms for 18 months. was having my three meals delivered because we couldn't go down to the dining room. I said, ⁓ not letting this time go to waste. I'm to write that book. And the most important thing to remember is you never have to worry about starting at the beginning and finishing at the start in the middle, start anywhere, just begin. So guess what chapter I wrote first. We talked about it already when you were asking about my favorite ballets to dance. Jasmine Jain: Mmm. Then about Mr. Balanchine coaching you. ⁓ your Swan Lake debut. Roni Mahler: Nope. What happened three days into my ballet theater? The chapter heading is called Cynthia's Ankle. And the one. I mean, what else to start with? But that. So I started with that. But those were two good guesses. Very good. One good guess. Very, very good. Very, very good. ⁓ You've your homework, my dear. You're a very good interviewer, but then you already knew that. Since this isn't about you but about me I'm going to save my question for later when we're off air. Anything else you want to know? Jasmine Jain: So how do you and how did you find balance in your life outside of ballet? Roni Mahler: with great difficulty. Thank goodness nature is be social. I valued my friends. I also... The other big love of my life, which I didn't mention... Okay. eight letters beginning with B, with L, and means where I got the title from. Baseball, yes. Baseball me balance in my life. My parents were diehard fans. They were watching a game. My mother was watching a game. Jasmine Jain: Baseball. Roni Mahler: in July of 51 on our little seven inch screen television. said, what's that? She said, baseball. I said, what's baseball? The rest was history. So that gave me balance and in a strange way. And then my ⁓ became Mickey Mantle, whom you may not know about, but you know now because you read the book, but he was way before your time. Anyway, he was injury prone and He danced through a dance, listen to me, he played through a lot of pain and I remember saying to myself in the wings, if Mickey can play on those knees, I can dance on these feet. You go girl. Except we didn't say you go girl in those days. so he was an inspiration to me. So my balance, but my love of sports, that's what led me to teaching football players first in college when I was an assistant professor, tenured assistant professor at Kansas State University. And later, when I was with Cleveland Ballet as Dennis Nahatz Artistic Associate, I trained the Cleveland Browns on the off season. Because I was such a sports fan, I knew what they needed. And I knew ballet, and I knew how they meshed. Jasmine Jain: you And how did you first discover teaching? Roni Mahler: That's a good story, but you see you are... only did you read my book, dear sweet Jasmine, but you ⁓ my book to ask the best questions. This is very impressive. Okay, so... I was all of 19 years old, I think. ⁓ Sobota had a friend who was a teacher in Wilmington, Delaware, who needed someone to teach her advanced girls one day a week on Saturdays and to choreograph a performance piece for them. And Madame Sobota asked me if I'd like to do it. I said, ⁓ yes, I felt so grown up. I took the train. from New York to Wilmington, Delaware myself on a Friday night. I taught them class and I choreographed which is we call it the French from Capellia but it's really the French word is tem varier meaning theme and variations. anyway I choreographed simpler version for them and I loved teaching. I was by the bug. And then I managed to teach all through my career because there's such a thing as conventions where teachers belong to an association or if it's not an association they just pay an entrance fee and they study all kinds of dance from masters and I would teach the ballet classes. I loved helping people gain knowledge. You see I was so lucky. I was trained by a brilliant teacher. I studied with four or five brilliant teachers and I was mentored by brilliant choreographers. I was so lucky. many teachers don't have that good luck in small towns and they're sincere but they lack information. And I found that I could be the purveyor of information to these teachers ⁓ help them become better teachers. And that thrilled me. ⁓ I learned that I loved teaching a long time ago and I always said that performing was my oxygen. But lucky for me, I had always been teaching alongside my performing career. when I was too old to perform anymore, teaching became my oxygen. Now, to have two different professions be your oxygen in the same life, that makes me a lucky puppy, don't you think? I so. Jasmine Jain: So what's the best piece of advice that you've ever received? Roni Mahler: Well, it's a phrase from the Bible that I can't remember at the moment, but it means the sun will come out tomorrow, don't worry. You know, all you have to do is make it to tomorrow and it's a whole fresh start. It's a whole fresh start. So never, never, never despair. when you see the movie, Groundhog Day, don't believe it. It happen. No, but that was the best piece of advice I ever got. And the other good piece of advice was, if you're nervous about getting through something in a performance, because Madame Sabota, I coined it blue lip special, okay? She made me do the whole role from beginning to end. three times in a row. Now, by the third time my lips were blue and I could hardly get through it and she didn't care. But when I only had to do it one time in performance, I was Wonder Woman! Yay! So, the blue lip special and the sun will come out tomorrow. That's my best advice. Jasmine Jain: Yeah. how do you define success and has that changed over the years of your career? ⁓ Roni Mahler: No, it has never changed. Success to me is, going to know this from the book, disturbing molecules. Okay? When on stage... Jasmine Jain: Thank you. Roni Mahler: I try to disturb as many molecules as I can as I move so that the audience sits in their chair and goes, ooh, what was that? They feel my presence on the stage. And now that I teach, I also disturb molecules. communication and changing people's lives and giving them a way to be as positive about life as I am. That's my main goal and my wish. Jasmine Jain: What advice would you give your 13 year old self? Roni Mahler: Don't overdo Madame Subota's exercises to the point that you hurt your hip and have to keep your leg down for a year. Okay? You see, I too much of an overachiever. And overdid things and ⁓ gave the ⁓ ability to myself. In retrospect, I would look back to my 13-year-old and say, Life is long. You have plenty of time to live it. the exercises the teacher gives you, but don't try to fix everything immediately. Things take six six weeks. of it's tragedy. especially at 13, you're growing. So things inside your body are vulnerable because they're not finished growing. They're moving parts. 13 year old Ronnie, be a little more patient and be a little kinder to yourself. That's the hardest thing for an overachiever to do. Jasmine Jain: Well, thank you so much for coming on and for all of this amazing advice and stories. I hope so. Roni Mahler: Do you think I had a good time? say yes ma'am you look like you had a good time. Jasmine Jain: Thank you so much. Roni Mahler: You're welcome, my sweet, and congratulations to you for this entire concept you've developed and that you've carried forward and ⁓ And just remember, life is long. ⁓ Bye-bye. Jasmine Jain: Yes.