speaker-0: Monday comes early. This chapter closes. A new door opens. This is the second shift.

speaker-2: There's nothing like a metastatic cancer diagnosis to put it in really sharp focus and say, I have got to make the impact I have while life is mine. And you want to live life. Go have the experiences, go have the adventures, spend time with your family, do all those things that matter, as ⁓ a fatalistic experience. But if you want to have ⁓ a truly fulfilling mortal life, spend less time complaining and more time just doing stuff and serving people.

speaker-1: Most of our guests are navigating life after medicine or after the military or after the corner office or after some other high impact career. Today's guests had that decision almost made for him. In 2022, Dr. Peter Crane was diagnosed with a large tumor that required radiation surgery and a lung rehabilitation. He's a rural family physician in Idaho. full spectrum of care, delivering babies, the whole thing. And after facing the possibility that was all over, he fought his way back. He's still practicing and he still calls medicine the greatest profession. So naturally the question we wanted to ask is, what does almost losing your career teach you about why you do it in the first place? And can you really find your second shift without actually leading? Here's our conversation with Dr. Peter Crane. Welcome everyone to the fifth episode of the Second Shift podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Brian Jepson. I'm a recently retired emergency medicine physician that continued working as a full-time financial planner. I'm here with my co-host, Darren Millage, who also holds a certified financial planner certificate in MBA and is a former Air Force fighter pilot. Today, I'm excited to introduce our guest, Dr. Peter Crane. Before I tell you a little bit more about him, I'd like to... Tell you how we met, Peter, do you remember?

speaker-2: ⁓ yeah, yeah, we were at a conference together.

speaker-1: Yeah, we were at the White Coat Investor Conference. was about a year ago. And I actually met him at the crack of dawn one morning along with his lovely wife. We were all out deciding it was a good idea at a medical slash finance conference to go on a 5K run.

speaker-2: Well, of course, who wouldn't want to go to a conference when you're on vacation and going on a run at 6 a.m. when it's cold? Right.

speaker-1: That's right. That's how we first met, struck up a conversation. I learned a little bit about him and we've stayed connected since then. It's been a pleasure over that time getting to know you, Peter. I'm excited for our guests to get to know you a little bit as well. ⁓ Just a quick recap on his bio and then we'll get into some of these things in detail. He's a graduate from the University of Utah Medical School, which is ⁓

speaker-2: Thank you.

speaker-1: Close to my heart since that was my alma mater as well. Interest-wise speaking of the white coat investor, Jim Dahlia, think was also a graduate of the University of Utah Medical School. The three former Utah Ute podcaster in the physician space. What are the odds?

speaker-2: Thank you. have. Congratulations. What are the odds?

speaker-1: Anyway, a family medicine physician in rural Idaho, which is I would say a dying breed, which I'd like to talk a little bit more about that and why you chose that. Also a podcast or doctors making a difference is the name of your podcast, which is fantastic. A podcast I love. It's one of my favorites. I'd love to hear more about that. And then maybe most importantly, a cancer survivor. So let's get started. Aaron, why don't you kick us off? Peter, thanks for joining us. ⁓ Reading ⁓ just the about page here, what stands out immediately is the fact that you were literally hired to replace the physician who delivered you. don't know how many other people, we just talked about like, what are the chances of three physicians from

speaker-2: ⁓

speaker-1: ⁓ old Utes physicians and meeting at a white coat investor, but literally like this is, think of all of the probabilities. These have the slimmest odds of getting hired to replace the position who delivered you. So just what was that like? What was that like walking into that role ⁓ at that stage of your life?

speaker-2: Well, I mean, when you finish medical school and residency, most people are around age 30. I think I was about 31, 32. And I do remember it felt kind of surreal because it's the same office where I would used to go get sports physicals when I was a teenager. Like, all right, I guess I work here. And it was really interesting because the doctor who delivered me just kind of happened to be nearing the end of his career and the hospital was looking to hire another doctor. And I wasn't sure if that's how it would actually work out. That's what they did. He retired and I took over the spot where he was at. It was a little bit surreal for those, I would say those first couple of years to be in that place because when you're a kid, sort of look up to the physicians in the community, especially a small community and to be able to walk in that space, definitely had a little bit of imposter syndrome, but it was really quite an honor. you work with people that I guess it's challenging to have somebody that... you held as a respected adult when you're a kid that comes in and now you're their doctor. On the other hand, it was quite an honor when someone would say, like, I've got a medical issue I need help with, to be able to really have a sincere love and care for that person has been one of my deepest honors for the last 15 years that I've been back in the community.

speaker-1: You mentioned imposter syndrome and it's something that Brian and I talk about, ⁓ you know, it may not be unique to folks transitioning from an identity defining career into something new to kind of, ⁓ you know, I used to be a domain expert in this, now I'm this, there is that imposter syndrome. I'm curious, you know, in this case, you're the new guy, you're walking in and I'm sure that, you know, I just, curious what that imposter syndrome felt like, how you kind of worked through it. and did it affect you and how do you eventually grow out of it?

speaker-2: I don't know, I think you just, you do something for a while and you know, the phrase fake it till you make it, I think is relevant. And you know, and in medicine, the mantra is always see one, do one, teach one. And I think that that was reflected through all of my medical career. And I think in residency, that's very much how it is. You're thrown in head first and we've taught you how to do this. Remember you have the skills. Okay, now it's two in the morning and somebody's crashing, you need to intubate them. And by the way, you're, you're... other attending physician is at home and they'll be here in 30 minutes. And so you have to manage it. And I think maybe that same thing, I was just kind of used to being thrown in head first on things and using my skills. And so I think in my community, you know, I was able to kind of grow into that role a little bit, trying to help patients that would come in and as people gain trust and as I helped them through these different diseases or I helped deliver their children or I helped take care of their loved ones at the end of life, you know, it developed a real. connection and love for those individuals that have entrusted me with their care. And then it didn't really feel like I was trying to play a role. just, you kind of have all the different parts of your life sort of coalesce into one experience. And so I was okay to be the doctor in the community and the clinic or the hospital and be the person you see in the community at the sporting event or at church or wherever you encounter each other. It's really turned into a very fulfilling experience, challenging, but fulfilling.

speaker-1: I was just going to ask about that because, you know, rural medicine is different. It's a different breed, right? In terms of what you have to do, especially within family practice, because, you know, unlike if you work in a big city or in a big, you know, community hospital where there's lots of resources around you and you play your specific role in that, as a rural physician, a family physician, you are all the roles. And, you know, in not only that, you go in, like you just mentioned, you see your patients at the grocery store and you see them at church and they say, Hey doc, ⁓ what's this rash? You know, like when you're trying to watch your, your kids baseball game or something like that, just, just wondering how, what led you to that decision about why you wanted to do a, a rural ⁓ family doctor and how it's been for you.

speaker-2: So I think if you interview lots of folks who choose family medicine, you'll find that they have ⁓ some of the same background. They kind of liked everything. And I was one of those. I liked surgery. I liked the emergency room. I liked pediatrics. I liked obstetrics. And I really, like truly liked each of those. And I could have seen myself doing any one of those specialties. But then I think what I observed in my rotations is in some places, especially more urban areas ⁓ or just suburban even, some of the family docs were really kind of restricted because there were so many specialties in the standard of care or the expectation is well, if you have a heart thing, you're gonna go to a cardiologist. If you have obstetrics, gonna be at a gynecologist and you could split the care into 10 different specialties. And I don't think I would have done family medicine for me, it just didn't work to just be kind of the person that's kind of following algorithms and managing chronic disease and being the center of a referral. And it's not that I don't do that. have lots of people that refer to and I'm honored to do it. But rural medicine really attracted me regardless of the ability to come back to my own hometown because I could see that it was very fulfilling as a doctor. I could use every skill, every single rotation I was on in medical school and residency. I would put this down like I'll probably have to use this skill and I still do for sure. I don't think there's a single thing I've learned that I don't use on my ⁓ routine life. It's almost like it should be rural medicine. Like you say, it's almost hard to find people that carry on that role, but it is its own unique specialty. When I talk to my family medicine colleagues who work in ⁓ a different setting, it's just really hard to kind of be on the same page because very few people say, well, who did the C-section? Well, I did. Who worked in the ER and worked that person up in intubating? Well, I did. Who took care of him in the ICU for the first 18 hours when there was a blizzard? Well, I did. And it's just, it's such an interesting. dynamic experience. It's forced me to be a lifelong learner, which I've loved. ⁓ But I think that's really what, as an excited medical student, that's why I wanted to do it. You get to do everything, on the flip side, you also have to do everything so it can present lots of challenges.

speaker-1: Professionally, that create any sort of isolation since it sounds like from a cohort perspective, you're sort of a rare breed. And like you said, when you talk to colleagues, maybe they don't get it. Maybe they don't understand. Maybe it sort of blows their minds. Professionally, does that create some isolation?

speaker-2: Sometimes, you what I've found is I have excellent colleagues. In the 15 years I've been here, we've ranged from ⁓ three to six doctors that kind of have ⁓ not the same necessarily. People kind of come in with different expertise on things, but somewhere between three to five doctors that kind of do that same breadth of ⁓ experience. And so they are locally, I have folks that I work with. And then the second thing I found is as I go to medical conferences or I like in my state medical chapter, I found, especially in Idaho where I work, there are quite a few communities that have doctors that do what I do. And when you see someone that kind of has done it for a while and you recognize like, ⁓ yeah, you get it. You understand what this is like. And I've found that there's a lot of collegiality and a lot of understanding. It's not like people think that they're better than anybody else. It's just understanding the circumstances of rural medicine. Like very often you are the only one and you can call people and they can drive in from however far they are away. but you have to be able to think on your feet. And like I say, it's challenging, but it's also quite an honor to be able to do it.

speaker-1: So let me ask Peter, with the burnout rate so high in medicine and you assuming this role as the be-all ⁓ physician for your patients in that community, ⁓ how do you manage it? How do you balance that with life and the podcasting and everything else you're doing? How do you maintain the balance so that you don't become one of the statistics?

speaker-2: Yeah, well, I guess there's two points on that. One is I could never do it alone. It would be impossible. We had a time where we had some shakeup in our hospital leadership and quite a few of the staff left a few years ago. And it really came down to two of us that were doing that broad spectrum care for about 18 months. And that was very hard. That was the only time where I felt like I was just completely overwhelmed because there was only two of us and you couldn't leave town, me and the other physician. did it really have to kind of be tag team like, okay, I'm gonna be gone for 45 minutes. When are you gonna be here? Because it was too much. So having a team of four or five of the folks that can do it, that's, I would say that's number one is my colleagues. And then the second thing, it's more of a time management thing that I think people talk about and I certainly don't have it figured out, but I've just tried to be present wherever I'm at. I know it sounds simple, but if I say, look, I'm at work, you have my full undivided attention. I am here for you. And when I leave work, when I'm at home, I try to say you have my full undivided attention. And it's really hard because there's so many different facets of it. And sometimes work comes home even though I don't want it to, because you get some kind of horribly difficult trauma on someone that you know and love. But I have just found that being present helps me. And then trying to really find, okay, what about this relationship with this person I'm talking to? matters and the relationships are what keep me coming back. I would say I would want someone to show up in my disaster, my emergency, my challenge. And when you have that level of love and respect for somebody, it doesn't feel like you're doing an onerous duty. It feels like you're there to really help a friend or someone in need.

speaker-1: Honestly, I think that's why emergency medicine has such a high burnout rate is that we don't have, know, just in the emergency medicine, we don't have the opportunity to create those relationships. And so, so ⁓ that's I can definitely see that value in the type of medicine that you do.

speaker-2: Yeah, on the flip side, one of the benefits of not knowing everybody that comes in in the ER, because most of the time, nine out of 10 times when somebody comes to the emergency room, I always cover the ER as well, nine out 10 times I've met them before somewhere or I've taken care of a family member or they're visiting a relative that lives in the area or something like that. And that's wonderful to be able to be like, ⁓ yeah, how's it going? You and you kind of get to know people on the bad side when somebody comes in and has... a really challenging, unexpected disaster and your ability to help is limited, it's soul crushing because it's not someone that is ⁓ someone you can just think like, well, that was a rough time to have that patient have that problem. That's also a person that goes to my community or has kids in the same school as my kids. And so it can be challenging for sure.

speaker-1: Yeah, I'm sure that's true, but you know, I think that given that you probably feel less commoditized, commoditized and many physicians might, you know, where, where it's like, ⁓ I do my shift and I go home.

speaker-2: And I found that it kind of depends on, we've had different administrators over the years who have some, you know, dabbled in that, trying to treat their medical staff as a commodity. And in those times when we had one a few years ago, it was particularly challenging and you felt like you were just an asset to be managed. it doesn't really matter what we say, we're just going to have you do the shifts no matter how much. And at those times, yeah, everybody feels burned out and frustrated and angry. But when you say, look, I'm taking care of a team, this is my little medical family, I'll do anything for those people. And that approach leads to excellent outcomes and satisfaction for the employees all across the entire systems. So it is challenging to manage burnout for sure. But I think people will do difficult things if they have a time horizon and they know the people they're serving and they're invested in the outcome. If you give people those kind of parameters, they'll perform amazingly well and then they're happy to do it.

speaker-1: Yeah. So tell us, ⁓ know, our podcast is about second shifts and about ⁓ life changes and career changes. And you are still a full-time practicing ⁓ physician, but tell us a little bit more about your life story that, that put that at risk.

speaker-2: So as you alluded to at the beginning of the podcast, I also am living a life with treating cancer, which I don't really recommend. I think that's what you're talking about, right, Brian? Yeah. So I, I guess I'll, I mean, others who might've listened to my podcast have heard some of the story, but we had gone on it when I was 43, just a couple of years ago, we had gone on a trip to Italy and we saw as jet lag, we came back and I was just laying.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-2: in bed one morning at like 430 awake, cause my brain was on a different time zone. And I just, I don't know, I woke up with my hand just on my abdomen. I just was there. And so I noticed that my left side of my abdomen had this huge mass. And I don't know why I hadn't felt it before. It's just, I don't know, I'm usually, you know, sit there and just feel your stomach unless it hurts or something, but I had no pain or anything. I just noticed that there was a bump and I'm like, what is that? And I thought maybe I had an enlarged spleen or something maybe related to the trip. I didn't know what it was. And, but I felt well, I'd lost about 10 pounds, but I'd also been exercising and trying to be healthy. And I'd had a little bit of swelling in my legs when we went on that trip to Italy, but I kind of attributed it to a long airplane ride. And I thought, well, maybe that's just what happens when you turn 43. But so as the long and short as I saw my ⁓ practice partner and he, I saw him in clinic that next day. Cause I said, come check this out. He was worried enough about it order to CT scan and discovered a ⁓ 26 centimeter sarcoma. mean, like a baseball bat to the face, sort of an experience to be like, whoa. In fact, maybe I told you this, Brian, before we talked, I found it. I was working in the ER that night and I just happened to have the PAC system pulled up for another patient and I couldn't help myself. I clicked on mine just to see the report. And I was like, ⁓ my goodness, there it is. you know, ⁓ it's a 26 centimeter likely sarcoma. And I had to, I just couldn't believe it. I had to go back to work, you know, had patients waiting for me in the ER and I just kind of, you know, wipe away the shock and go back to seeing patients. And, know, my patients, you know, my colleagues as they kind of found out what was going on were more than gracious about it. But yeah, life altering, crazy, you know, and to when you get that kind of news unexpectedly it... it was certainly a shift.

speaker-1: as you alluded to. Does being a physician, did that make, did the medical knowledge make it easier or harder? I mean, you mentioned like the compartmentalization of your work, you see it, you're back to work, but as you sort of dwell on it and you're tapping into your own medical knowledge easier, harder, how did that affect, like as this information is coming to you?

speaker-2: Well, so I mean, you know, the story unfolds as you can imagine. I know that tumors usually have, if they're that big, to have radiation and surgery and chemotherapy and all the things. that side of it, I kind of knew, but I don't know, in some ways it almost made it worse. Cause you know, instead of saying like, well, I don't know what this is, it's a likely sarcoma. Big sarcomas don't have a good survival rate. You you have all that information. And yet what I'm really worried about is, How can I get through this shift? What do I tell my family? I was almost embarrassed about it. How can I, I'm supposed to be helping people. How can I be the one to have this horrible thing go on? And how could I have missed it? know, and it's just all so many complicated feelings at the time. ⁓ But I would say that in balance, I was glad that I had the medical knowledge because I knew what to expect. I, boy, and I know I've told Brian this before, but it's certainly. that experience of being a physician and a patient and having that knowledge and engaging with the medical system regularly over those next few months and even now to go in and do chemotherapy and radiation and surgery. was just blown away by the compassion and skill of my colleagues who took care of me. And at the same time, most every day I would do those treatments and then I'd put on my doctor hat and go back and be a doctor. It's such an interesting juxtaposition.

speaker-1: Yeah, I was going to ask about that because ⁓ I think when you're in that situation, I would imagine that ⁓ you see both good and bad. You know, some. ⁓ So my question is who showed up for you and what were the what were some of the good and maybe some of the bad that you experienced that has changed how you have approached patients ⁓ as now a former cancer patient.

speaker-2: Yeah, so I mean, to be clear, I have metastasis and I still have to take chemotherapy. You know, that's my lived reality. so it's still a challenge. But who showed up for me? Like I say, that was again, my initial impression was like, oh my goodness, how's this going to turn out? And you you feel like the sky is falling and yet just have to compartmentalize and say, okay, I'm going to get back to work and take care of this patient and do what I need to do like you always do as a physician. I felt initially like almost like I was racing against time. I can't take time off because I got to take time off for the surgery. What if I can never work again? I need to make sure that my, my financial house is in order so that when I take all this time off that we can be okay as a family, we can still make the payments and the commitments that we've made. And I, I think at the beginning I was a little bit short-sighted about like, got to get to this right now. In fact, during radiation for six weeks, I definitely would drive. an hour and half each direction every morning. And then eventually I got sick and if I had to have somebody else drive me there and back, but I would still go to work every day. I'd go, I'd just be three hours late and I'd still go to work because I wanted to show up and take care of my responsibilities. And I figured I needed to save my time off for the surgery. And I was so thankful for the radiation oncologists and the general oncologists and the surgical oncologists and my primary care doctor, but they really did show up for me and helped me so much. In hindsight, I probably should have taken a little more time off and allowed myself to go through something that was a little bit challenging. But I, well, at the time, my practice partner of the previous 10 years had announced he was leaving to the community and it was kind of rough timing. So me leaving that my patients had no doctor. And so I felt ⁓ compelled and I wanted to continue to be there for them until we figured out something else. So it was certainly a challenging time for sure.

speaker-1: Did you, you know, you mentioned showing up to work and, and, and, ⁓ serving and kind of fulfilling those, those responsibilities. ⁓ like what did you entertain the possibility that this could lead? mean, let's look, you know, the, the, mortality aside, was there any part of you that, sort of dwelt on the possibility that you may never be able to serve as a, as a physician again? And if so, how did that land with you?

speaker-2: Yeah, no, for sure. That's the big unknown. And even now, I none of us really in mortality, none of us really know what we're going to be able to be like the next day. You know, we live with this assumption that we'll be able to be well for years, but it puts it in such sharp focus when you have something like this. I, like I said before, I really wanted to not leave my patients in a lurch, which was maybe a little bit short-sighted, but at the same time, I really wanted to make sure we took care of them. And I had, ⁓ I just wanted to mention this. I had two colleagues from residency, two really great men that I'd been friends with at that time who found out about it. And I mean, this is incredible. Both of them had just made a change in their lives with their careers and had opened up. They wanted them to start doing some locums work. And the other one had just shifted to a job that had some telemedicine capability. just unbeknownst to me, of course, they had made these changes. But in both cases, they said, hey, Peter. if you need us to come to your job for two months or three months while you recover from the surgery, we're there. And they did, both of them. One of them was in Alaska, one was in Virginia. They picked up and the hospital hired them, know, kind of temporarily put them up in a housing. And for two months, they just did my job. They just, both of them showed up, showed up to the clinic every day. Cause as I mentioned, my practice partner had left. There would be no physicians in that clinic during that time. And they showed up and just... I did it and it gave me some time to reflect on what you were just asking, Aaron, you know, can I work again? What is this going to be like? What's my capability? Because as you probably know, when you do a large exploratory surgery for a big tumor, you have to have an R0. You're looking for an R0 resection of the tumor, which means you remove whatever it takes. And I was told I would lose my left kidney, my left hemicolon, you know, and probably have a bunch of challenges, changes in my body because of it. Thankfully I was able to keep. those parts, but I did have some very significant left leg weakness and have to therapy for months, but I didn't know if I would ever be able to return back to work. was no way to possibly know that I hoped that I would, ⁓ but it gave me just tremendous respect. And I, and I know I've told Brian this before, but I, as I was laying there recovering and, thinking about, do I get to do this again? What would I do if I got to do it again? You know, you kind of sit and replaying all that stuff in your mind. And the thing that came is just this clear thought is If I got to do it again, I'd be a physician. I'd want to be a part of this team of healers that make an incredible difference to a person's life and show up and gather decades worth of experience to make a tremendous difference. And I don't know, it just struck me so hard. It's really why I kind of started the podcast and all the rest is I just, want to highlight and empower doctors that are making this incredible ⁓ differences in somebody's life. And I am so thankful that they have helped me and continue to help me and that I got to return back to the workforce.

speaker-1: Before we talk about the podcast, I do want to get into that, but let me ask you this. How are you different as a physician now? after what you've been through and as a cancer patient, how has that changed your, whether it's your bedside manner or how you approach the job or anything like that? And maybe it hasn't changed you, but I'm just curious if it has.

speaker-2: Well, like every life experience, you know, change as a person, you know, and you never are really quite the same one day to the next, because you're improving a tumor diagnosis and an ongoing, being an ongoing patient. I guess it makes me a little bit more compassionate. I don't think I was an un-compassionate person before, but I definitely, when somebody comes in and says, hey, I have this horrible thing and I'm going through this, I feel like I can relate a little bit better. And when somebody comes to ask me to fill out disability paperwork or something that is paperwork, who likes to do paperwork, I'm less annoyed by it. I feel like, okay, if that's something that will really help you to get what you need so that you can heal and recover and get back to your family, sign me up. I want to be there to help. And my patients, because I'm in a small community, most of them know that I go through this because it's hard to keep those kinds of things quiet in a small community. So most of the time, I'd say nine out of 10 interactions that patients know me and I want to know how they're doing. And we try not to spend too much time on it because there's a finite amount of time and visits, but they want to know how I'm doing too. And so I think it adds a measure of understanding. So patients are like, ⁓ yeah, let's go to Dr. Crane. He knows what it's like to go through this. And I do. And it's hard. Very often I go to the hospital in the morning, get my IV started, do my infusion, and then the nurse or they're nice, but they're calling like, hey, when are you going to come up and round on Mrs. So-and-so? Or when are you going to come up here? We've got a baby that's supposed to be delivered. When are you going to be up here? I'm like, I've got to get the IV out of my arm and I'll be right up. And it's this weird thing, but I'm living this life routinely. And it's challenging, but it is my lived reality.

speaker-1: So I mean, I'll be honest with you that the painting that picture and then seeing what, know, how you tie that into the story, to the podcast, like your mission of help others finding joy, working as a physician. You mentioned kind of this juxtaposition of your live reality. mean, finding joy in this situation is a, isn't in itself a juxtaposition. so, you know, You say you still find joy in medicine, you're helping others pursue that. ⁓ That's almost like ⁓ a dirty word, right? That's countercultural. We don't talk about joy in medicine. We talk about burnout. ⁓ So how do you do that? And what do you see is like the common thread among physicians that you talk to?

speaker-2: ⁓ So I still think being a physician is the greatest profession. ⁓ It's hard, like there's lots of burnout, the systems are broken, all the money seems to flow to people that don't make the right decisions. There's lots of stuff that we can talk about what's wrong. And I'm not denying any of those things are wrong. But really, when you think about why you went to medical school and what made you choose to do that. It wasn't so you could make RVUs and fill out somebody's EMR documentation and meet somebody's productivity requirements. You wanted to help people. You wanted to make a difference. And it's the most unique job because it's not just like, well, you've got a problem and we'll work on it. It's you're right in the details of somebody's life and everything hinges on that moment, like how you talk to the person, what decisions you make. So when I go to my doctor's appointments, especially at that time when everything was so chaotic and uncertain. I just hang on every word, like what's going on? What do they expect? And so it's such a unique job. And if all we do is talk about how hard it is and how difficult it is, we're going to drive our best and brightest away from medicine. And I think we need to work from within to fix it and make it better so that people can get back to caring. And I hate that it's become such a ⁓ productivity business driven thing, because that is really important to keep the lights on, but really we should be focused on How do I make the biggest difference and impact for my patient? And doctors need to still be in the driver's seat on those decisions. So I feel like there's got to be more of an upswelling of physicians who rise and say, I'll take the leadership role. We'll decide together what's best for patients. And usually what's best for patients is usually what's best for doctors too. You work through it and those are the things that make the most sense. What's best for business practice and income don't always match that. But we have to be involved in those discussions. And I just found, Erin, you asked what I found as I talked to people on the podcast. I have found an amazing group of doctors who are caring and uniquely qualified to help people. And some of them have that, carried that mission, you know, of the duty to kind of serve humanity in their own community. Some have taken it worldwide and done stuff. Some have done it through education, but there's a tremendous number of people who, who still get it and they still remember why they're doing what they do. And those are the ones that. Patients love to come to and I think they really matter. We have to be careful not to drive everybody away from medicine.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think, you know, I love your podcast. First of all, let me say that because, because I do think it has a different tone than many of the podcasts, the physician, medicine podcasts. And it is, ⁓ you're a champion of, of the field and you interview people who are doing very cool things within medicine. ⁓ one thing I noticed that is a lot of those, a lot of the guests have had. their own challenges that they faced or overcome or ⁓ created a shift in their thinking or reinforced their career choice or whatever. do ⁓ you have anything to say about that? I I do, I've noticed that with your guests as well is that they're unique individuals that have. And I don't want to say unique is uncommon. mean, I think there's a lot ⁓ of people that go through that and just don't necessarily share their story. But ⁓ what are some of the things that you've learned from your guests about how they took their challenges and made them, helped them to create joy in spite of them?

speaker-2: Well, to have challenges is to be mortal. Everybody has them, they really do. And I think that's why medicine, by being a physician, is such a unique job, is you're helping people, but it's all about the individual in front of you. And when doctors discover that, especially if they've been in challenging circumstances themselves, they get it and say, like, I have this unique skill set. And with the skills and knowledge that medicine has to bring, We can make life better. alleviate suffering and improve disease and help you live longer and better. And when people understand that, it is awesome. I just really love meeting so many of my guests. I recently had an episode with Dr. Stuart Clive. You might've listened to that one. ⁓ A really interesting, compassionate ER doc. And he discovered the idea that maybe he could do it after he'd kind of hit his fine number, his financial independence number. maybe he could dedicate an entire year's salary to help to cure blindness in Ghana. And he did, and he's still working. He's like, work is so much cooler now because I realized that every dollar I'm earning isn't just to fill up my bank account or to pay off my mortgage. Every dollar I earn is going to make a life-changing difference to somebody in a different place. And folks like that, that are just so impactful because you realize there's challenges and it's easy to get burned out. Like I've got to find something else. Maybe I should just... leave medicine and find another source of income altogether. But a lot of people find a way to stay engaged. I would say one of the other things on that Brian is one of the foci of the podcast is to give doctors tools, like kind of like what you're doing with financial tools, coping tools, connectivity tools, advocacy tools, so that you can stay in medicine and not be controlled. You're going to be a better doctor if you're independent or on the path to financial independence because you're not being constrained by an external system as much. And I think all that stuff is a conversation we have to have. Otherwise we really will just talk about the negative because there's lots of it.

speaker-1: So in tying that of kind of not necessarily the financial aspect, but thinking about how those resources, the tools of the tool belt, even elements or layers of advocacy ⁓ assist in Brian and I kind of talk in the context of life after high impact careers, you almost had that transition forced on you. So. So what did that teach you in light of all of those, sort of all of the tools that you just mentioned, ⁓ that you, that you share with your guests on the podcast that they share with you. ⁓ what did you kind of get from, from the experiences as you know, you're kind of staring this, this second shift like it or not that was happening to you.

speaker-2: I mean, life is finite and I think we all know it. As a physician, you really see it day by day. You face disease every day and you see what it's like and generally have a pretty good idea if it can be fixed or not. But there's nothing like a metastatic cancer diagnosis to put it in really sharp focus and say that I have got to make the impact I have while life is mine. And you want to live life. I think we all know that, but... Man, go have the experiences, go have the adventures, spend time with your family, do all those things that matter, not ⁓ as a fatalistic experience, but if you want to have a truly fulfilling, mortal life, spend less time complaining and more time just doing stuff and serving people. As one physician, I can't change the entire system and I can't fix everybody. There's no way to do it, but I can make the impact on the individuals that come to me for their care. And maybe the only people in life that will ever even remember that I existed are my own kids and my family and the people in my community. And I want to have a tremendous impact on them. But I would say maybe the biggest shift in thinking like the second shift is just to say, don't put things off. We all know that, we hear it. But really, if you wanna have an impact, you wanna make some changes in your life, act on it now and make the little incremental changes so that life. looks like the way you want it to look to the best of your possibility. And then the other is just amplify, ⁓ scale your impact. There's some stuff that you can really do to make a difference to people that you don't know, that you can especially make a difference to the people in your sphere, the people you do know.

speaker-1: Yeah, I recently wrote an article on Doximity about a colleague of mine who died of cancer recently. And it made a big impact on, I think on a lot of those who read it, judging on the comments that were given. And a lot of it was coming from, a lot of the comments were coming from physicians who had retired or were close to retiring or... You know, for various reasons and, and one of the themes that was pretty consistent was, ⁓ regretting spending the time that they wish that they could reclaim, you know, and, and to your point, you can always earn more money, but you can never reclaim your time. And, and if you're so focused on earning money, that you are. destroying relationships or not fulfilling relationships, even if they're not destroyed, you're not creating the deep and meaningful relationships that you otherwise could be spending time doing, I think you're missing the boat. And nothing like a cancer diagnosis to kind of bring that to the forefront, I would assume.

speaker-2: ⁓ yeah, you know that every, just like you said, you measure how life has been and all the different things, like you have to have all the financial resources to be able to spend time with love, the people you love and doing things that bring you fulfillment and joy. But really, I just remember at that time, specifically in a couple of years ago when I found that tumor, all the other things that I was worried about, about RVUs and. who's gonna do this so we can make sure we have time off for this and how are we gonna take our vacation time and how so-and-so is mad at so-and-so of some relationship. I just remember all of that suddenly just paling in comparison, not even being meaningful. Why are we worried about this? It's like the little kids fighting over the yellow crayon. It doesn't even matter. Why are we so worried about all this garbage? Really, it should be about relationships and about building trust and spending time with the people you love. If you have that perspective and realize that all the squabbling we do as humanity, it really is kind of on that same level as little kids squabbling over the crayons. Really, if you have that perspective and you realize it's all about relationships and how you have time, freedom, and the ability to spend time doing the things that you love and nurturing those relationships, then everything else kind of falls into line because it's all about those interactions and that you're earning money so that you can have this experience. or you're taking time off so that you can have this experience or you're taking a second shift or retiring or changing so that you can do this meaningful and fulfilling opportunity. Having money or having resources should be a means to an end.

speaker-1: Yeah, I appreciate that. And it's very true. ⁓ The finances are important, right? Financial planning is important because it helps you to create those opportunities. But in and of itself, if you don't take advantage of the opportunities, ⁓ you're going towards the wrong goal. And once you get there, you'll find yourself on the field, I'm afraid. And so I think that was really well said and a good point. Aaron, you ready for the reckoning or do you have any other questions? Well, yeah, I have one more question. It'll actually feed in to the reckoning. So, I mean, that's the whole point. It works then. So if anything were to happen, just, you know,

speaker-2: about the reckoning.

speaker-1: tumor or otherwise, and you found out that you couldn't practice, what would be your plan? And I asked that because, ⁓ you know, when you say these sort of ⁓ life, your broad aperture on what's important, right? Like some people would approach it from a very nihilistic thing of like, you know what? I'm going to go live ⁓ the best life that I can and eat, drink and be merry. Your focus was on sort of looking beyond and outside and... of yourself. And so, you know, what, what would life look like for you if you couldn't practice, knowing that you, do extract this joy from healing, from, ⁓ from serving others, from the responsibility to, kind of humanity.

speaker-2: That's a great question, Aaron. None of us know the cards were gonna be dealt. It's impossible to know. But I thought about that and I thought about it a lot because I truly didn't know a couple of years ago if I'd be able to return to medicine. what would I do with the time I've got left? And maybe one of the bigger challenges is you say like, okay, well get to be alive but I don't get to do some of the things like a lot of the patients that I work with are living with some kind of a profound disability and it's challenging. how would you still have an impact and do something that's meaningful? And I don't know that I have the full answer worked out on that. It certainly brought a lot of thought. One of the first thoughts was like, how's my disability insurance? Have I figured out how I would remain able to just meet the standards of the obligations we've committed to pay for, or how would my wife and my children manage without me? mean, those are all really important things. If I couldn't work, if I couldn't work as a physician, I hope that I would still be able to write or do something to impact the field of my profession. I hope that I would still be able to have impact on my children and be a part of their lives. And I hope that I would still find meaningful work, but I certainly don't have it all figured out because as long as I feel well, I want to be able to do all that I can. I know the future is unknown. I've been on chemotherapy for a year, ⁓ which is but I feel really blessed that it seems to be holding it at bay. The cancer I have is called solitary fibrous tumor, just to bring a little bit of awareness to that. It's a rare type of sarcoma. There are no known cures, but there are some treatments that seem to slow it down. So as long as it'll be really slow, I hope I get to live ⁓ a long life and that I hope that it can be meaningful and impactful. And I hope that if nothing else, I hope my children can see that there is some positive in this world and you have to go hunting for it. But if you want someone to talk to you about negative, that's easy to find. But if you want to find something you can actually make an impact on and help individuals, it's worth going and pursuing.

speaker-1: That's great. And I'm glad we asked that question because I think that Brian and I would agree that the bar is low for common decency and for finding people that will talk to you about the good, right? It's easy to just be a bitter, cynical old guy, know, the currugin, yelling at kids on the front lawn. Well, Peter, I appreciate. you for sharing your story also. I I think it's important for when we do face challenges and as we're trying to figure it out, I don't think we have to wait until we figure it out because we may not, you know, we may not completely figure out the right way to do things. But I think as we go through that struggle, ⁓ other people who are facing that challenge or similar challenges can, I don't know, just gain some strength from that. And, so, ⁓ I think it's wonderful that you're doing that. I think it's wonderful that you're championing other physicians that are doing that on your podcast. so we just really appreciate you being a guest today. Okay. Are you ready for the wrecking now? Okay. So, ⁓ what I love is, is, is you mentioned, ⁓ these, ⁓ you know, larger than yourself, these, these kind of, lofty pursuits of, of,

speaker-2: Happy to be here, thank you, Brian. Let's go for it.

speaker-1: things and engagements that bring joy, I'm curious through all of this, what's the smallest thing that brings you joy now that you never noticed before?

speaker-2: The smallest thing. Not, it's the absence of nausea. That's a terrible thing. It's a small thing. You never thought about it when you're not on chemotherapy. You never even think about not having feeling like yucky and nauseated, but it's just something I never really took for granted or I never really appreciated to its full extent. And now on the days when I'm not on treatment, I'm like, yes, I feel great. Let's go do stuff. And I survive on the other days and I do find I'm thankful that there's some treatments to survive it. But it is a little thing that you just never appreciated how awesome that feeling is, because it was just normal. And I guess that's my, part of my, maybe that's TMI, but that's my lived reality. I'm so thankful on the days when I don't feel yucky.

speaker-1: Sorry, no, I appreciate that. ⁓ So if you could go back and tell your pre-diagnosis self one thing, what would that be?

speaker-2: Don't be so worried about everything. I mean, truly, you get so much in the weeds and the details of how am going to accomplish this financial goal? Is this going to work out? And that's part of the stewardship of our lives is to make sure we attend to those details. But investing so much worry and stewing about so many little things, they just don't matter that much. Spend time with your loved ones and build relationships and... And you know, the kids are going to turn out fine. The job is probably going to continue to provide an income. And if you lose that job, you probably find another one. And it's not that we should be like, just forget about our worries. Cause like I said, that's part of the responsibilities of this life, but it is so important to just say, I've got to see past it and look for the, look for the moments, go take the kids backpacking and camping and do all those adventures when you have them. When my wife and I got married years ago, I was really thankful we had, ⁓ as a bishop and ecclesiastical leader that gave us some advice. said, go have the adventures while you're young. Do it now. Don't, he said, don't spend a lot of money, but if it sounds fun to you to go do some adventure or go on some trip, do it when it sounds fun. Save up a little bit and do it. Because if you wait and do everything when you're 65, the thing you thought was going to be fun won't be fun anymore. You know, it just won't, it'll be a different chapter of your life. And I was thankful for that advice. And we've tried to harp into that, continue to have adventures throughout all of our. married life, but I think that should apply to all of life. Just don't worry so much about everything. Go and enjoy it and spend time with the people you love. That's the thing that I think I've tried to do it, but I think I could have done better if I were to go back and shout something in my ear. That's probably what I would say.

speaker-1: Okay. That's excellent answer. You're doing well. This is the wrecking. Okay. Last, last question. ⁓ what's the question you ask yourself at 3 a.m. when you're staring up at the ceiling fan that you don't actually have an answer for.

speaker-2: That one's a little more challenging. Yeah, I don't have the answer to so many things. So I'm trying to pick up which one, which one to highlight. I, you know, I just can't know the future. You know, and I guess that's if I, when I am in my moments of, ⁓ hardest doubt when you don't know quite what's going to happen next. ⁓ I guess the thing I worry about the most is since you can't know the future, I'm mostly worried about my kids, you know, and I try not to worry about them. You know, cause they're good kids and they're going to turn out fine, but I, I mostly just, want to be there for them. You know, when, when you get this kind of a diagnosis, when you still have kids in elementary school, it is really alarming. You know, you realize like, I want to be there for the next year. I want to be there for the next five years and I want to be there for the next 20 years, you know, but it's uncertain. And so that, uncertainty about the future really is part of our experience for every person. can't know that. You cannot know what the future comes, but I try not to stew about it too much. I just try to. live life in real time and try to be positive and upbeat. But those are, I think that's part of the reality for everybody that has some kind of uncertain diagnosis. hope that hope for today is great and you hope that future years are gonna be good, but it is a little bit hard to plan into the distant future.

speaker-1: Thank you, Peter. So, ⁓ Dr. Peter Crane, thank you so much for joining us. I mean, I think you've given us some great things to think about. ⁓ We appreciate you sharing your experience. think that the experience of challenges helped mold us into the people that we are. And I can definitely see how that's. ⁓ molded your passion towards medicine and helping others. And even though was there before, I, it's, it's really, ⁓ kind of solidified that and you're doing a great job with your, ⁓ with your podcast. thanks again. So, we'll, we'll close it here. We, we usually have a little bit of a recap between Aaron and I afterward to just talk about you without you, without you being here in scaring.

speaker-2: you to have my ears burn.

speaker-1: Yeah, well, you can cut that part off when you're going back to listen to it if you'd like.

speaker-2: Thank you so much. Yeah, for having me on and it was nice to visit with both of you. Appreciate it.

speaker-1: Take care. Thanks, Brian. You and I by ourselves in the debrief reflecting and unpacking what Dr. Crane shared with us. Most of the guests that we have, let's be honest, are leaving, exiting, running from their careers. And Peter ran back to his. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. And that's one of the reasons that I wanted to. ask Peter to be a guest because ⁓ it's a different mentality, Where again, many of us, whether we're running ⁓ or just transitioning to something different, we're looking for other things to help fulfill us. And Peter, on the other hand, realized what fulfilled him and it was becoming the best physician that he could be and taking care of the patients the best that he can be. And that was almost, that was almost taken away from him. So, so I thought it was a good perspective that transitions can happen within a career, not necessarily external to a career. And especially what struck was his devotion to the present. Right. And not just, I guess I should just say a blanket, like, he's, he's always present. He is deliberately present in sort of the environment that he's in. ⁓ and some of us would, would say, that's just avoidance and you're compartmentalizing and that leads to, you know, therapy bills down the road. But it sounds like, you know, he is, he has figured out that, that, you know, present as a, as a physician and in giving, you know, that focus and attention and duty of care to patients and then, ⁓ present as a husband, father, ⁓ kind of figure in the community. ⁓ he's, he's figured that out. And so I, I wonder. You as we kind of talk and look back at the other guests, uh, most folks, think a common thread of the second shift set is there is always, uh, an eye to the future. And I, and some of that is, is sort of a, a downstream effect of, of lifetime learning. You know, you kind of learn something and then you sort of like, let the intellectual exercise say like, Oh, I wonder if I could do that. Or like, what would that look like if I pursued this, you know, down the road? How do I grow into this? Whatever. Um, and. Again, that can be a wonderful, virtuous trait, but taken to the extreme. I think that the risk is that we miss being present. And that obviously as he's talking about that, like, ⁓ I wonder if I like, I'm reflecting on my own life of like, how am I not present with each element of my identity, right? Like how am I not present? at work, how am I not present at home, the streams cross. I don't know. That was really impactful that he broke that down. Yeah. I mean, I think there's nothing like a terminal illness to give you perspective. Right. And many of us don't get that opportunity because we're not facing a terminal illness that we're aware of at the time. Right. So it's very easy. It's very easy to just live our life and you know, keep planning and push putting things off like we do, like we all tend to do. But when you are faced with a terminal illness, all of a sudden your perspective changes. And because you realize the present may be your future. That may be all you have, right? ⁓ that's valid. Yeah. And so you have to pull that future away from future into the present and say, OK, well, what's important? What's actually important to me? and ⁓ how do I make that happen now because I don't know how much longer I'm going to have to live that. And I think that doesn't take away the importance of planning for the future. And he made a good point of that and saying, OK, well, I'm sure glad I had disability insurance. I'm sure glad that we had our debt under control because I'm sure glad that I've made steps to create financial independence. because now that provides optionality, right? So that you can focus more on the things that are important now and in the future. And I love that perspective from him because it reminds us all that we probably ⁓ don't do a great job of that. And this is the second guess and something that I felt, when I hear your reckoning questions, ⁓ about looking back and what would you tell your previous self or whatever. ⁓ It's the same thing. It's stop worrying so much. I mean, plan, but don't worry so much and just be able to live your life more in the moment. ⁓ is, for financial planner, planners, that seems a little counterintuitive that we should be emphasizing that. But then again, I have lots of clients who have plenty of assets who still have trouble doing that. They still keep putting things off when they should just be spending and doing. So I think we create habits in ourselves that are hard to break. Yeah, I I think that's 100 % true. I've had the same experience of, I think it's easy to But again, on some level, the uncertainty of the future ⁓ can be used in a way that ⁓ creates this false sense of accomplishment, meaning that, I don't really know what the future is, but man, this plan on paper looks great, right? And I sort of use that as an avoidance technique to dealing with the present. And not even dealing with the present, but like you said, like giving permission to... ⁓ Enjoy these, you know, each season of life as, as it it's, it's, it's given to us. ⁓ and I know that, that that is, you know, that's a struggle both professionally to, kind of reconcile that with clients. Like, Hey, you know, like you guys, like at some point I feel weird because we're, therapists because like, Hey, you guys can spend. I hear you saying that you value all these things that are the right here and right now, but like that value diminishes because this season goes away when your kids are, you know, this, or when you were unable to do that. So it's okay to kind of use your time, talents and treasure right now to how you want to express your value or what brings the joy to your family. So it's a difficult balance. And I think Peter did a good job of kind of acknowledging that tension and then walking that line. Yeah. I like the point that he made ⁓ that I think he said his church leader advised him, know, where do what you what sounds fun now, because when you're 65 might not sound fun anymore. But but when you're 65, or 75 or 85, what you have is memories. I mean, that that's really what what your assets are, right? Yeah, is is your life memory. And and if you've if you've wasted your life not creating those memories, then it might be too late when you're sitting on your deathbed and not able to do the things that you professed that you wanted to do throughout the earlier years. so, I mean, you're right. I think it's a balance. You know, the other side of that is not planning, not being judicious, you know, just wasting all your, not being able to create assets where you're just wasting your income and not creating optionality for you in the future. But but ⁓ I think it's a balance that especially those who are kind of planner mentality, ⁓ it's easy to struggle with. What didn't we get to, do you think? ⁓ You know, I can think of one thing, but I'm curious what, if you had anything in mind that, man, I wish we had asked this. ⁓ You say yours and I'll think if I can come up with anything. I want to know, you know, is is and maybe maybe this is a discussion for us, but is is is finding joy in the work ⁓ realistic? Is it just, you know, can everybody get to that point? ⁓ And has he had conversations with physicians where he's just like, no, there's no there's no coming back for this guy. Yeah, I mean, that'd be a good question to ask him. I think most of the people that he probably has on his podcast are, excuse me, kind of self-selected. Those who have overcome and have been able to find joy in whatever else they're doing by definition or else they probably wouldn't have come to share that with others. I think a lot of that depends on how just your general approach to life. mean, I think whether you're a physician or someone in the military or, you know, someone who works at Walmart, you know, I think that you see people who, regardless of the circumstances, find joy in it. And you see others that regardless of the circumstances, can't. And so I think being able to cultivate that joyful side is a skill and maybe a personality trait, but something that everybody can work on if you choose to. ⁓ really, it doesn't take much, honestly. It's kind of like what we talked about with Dr. Schufelt is how low the bar kindness actually is, where you don't need to donate a bunch of money to any organization. to be considered generous. You can be generous with your time, your just kind words or just a smile. It's not as hard to do as I think we make it out to be. And I think once you start doing it, it can feed on itself. Yeah. I think that there's a lot of ⁓ onus on the on us, right? To kind of, I don't want to say manufacture the joy, but give the opportunity to find. And I'm reminded when I was a young ⁓ pilot instructor trainee, brand new, like a second lieutenant, you know, ⁓ learning how to teach in the jet that I was in. And class had started already in this old, he was my age at the time, so now he's old, obviously. I know, right? Like when 40 was ancient, Lieutenant Colonel like runs into the class and, you know, he's like an hour into the class and he's so excited to be there. And I'm like, what is this guy doing? And turns out that he had, he had experienced this mild heart attack, which had removed him from flying. he, you know, later as we're talking about this, he had admitted that he kind of already had one foot out of the door. But when presented with the fact that You know, someone else or some other external situation told him that he would no longer be flying. It was sort of like the, same, ⁓ I guess he didn't manufacture the joy, but he did kind of reflect on both. No, like maybe my reasons for wanting to leave were wrong. And I just remember his story of, of working so hard and enduring so many like ridiculous things to be able to fly. ⁓ and I wonder, you know, if that, if, if there's some exercise. ⁓ that would be good for the soul for, all of us to do of, of, you know, not imagine, we can never imagine like, ⁓ I have this, this, this terrible terminal, ⁓ cancer condition, but just some, ⁓ sort of mental exercise to really search through and, and kind of create the balance sheet of, of, ⁓ of contentment or joy that, that, you know, a virtuous occupation, ⁓ has instead of the easier route of being like, you know what? know, it'd be easier. It would be better. Like I'm out of here. ⁓ So Peter and his story reminded me of this experience very early on in my flying career. ⁓ And I'm just now I'm sort of like playing that through my head. The question that I thought about now that I've had time to think about a little bit that I don't think we have done a good job on any of our podcasts yet kind of to dive into. is how are your decisions impacting your family? ⁓ yeah. We got to get to that. because you got to get to it. Because you know, how how does how did his wife feel? Yeah, about him continuing to work and and all that kind of stuff. How did his kids feel? I mean, would they would did they want him to just retire and spend all the time with him now? Or, you know, I'd be curious about how the decisions that we make. I mean, I am curious about how the decisions that we make in our journey impacts those on the other sides and how aware we are of that. We had those conversations. Do we really understand the impact on those people we're supposed to be having meaningful relationships with? Man, the fact that we haven't done that. Tells us about us, Yeah, man, that's heavy. think that's a... very valid debrief point to take back personally. Okay, that is our show. Thank you for joining us on the fifth episode of the Second Shift podcast with our guest, Dr. Peter Crane. You can learn more about us and find links to previous shows on our website at the secondshiftpodcast.com. That's the number two ndshiftpodcast.com. If you enjoyed the conversation, please subscribe and hit like. And if you're interested in learning more about becoming a financial planning client, ⁓ can ⁓ reach out to us at targetedwealthsolutions.com. That's targetedwealthsolutions.com. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.

speaker-0: The work you did mattered. And you're not done. Welcome to what's next.

speaker-2: Thank you for listening to the Second Shift. If this conversation landed with you, please download our free guide called the Second Shift Blueprint. Five questions you and your partner should discuss before any major transition. Get it at SecondShiftPodcast.com. That's number two ndshiftpodcast.com. And if you're approaching a transition and want to talk through the financial strategy, we offer a complimentary 30-minute Second Shift audit. Details are at SecondShiftPodcast.com slash audit. Join us next week for another great episode And remember, your life and identity doesn't end with retirement. It's just entering its second shift. The content shared in this podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered personal financial advice. You should always consult with a financial professional to determine what is appropriate for your individual circumstances.