speaker-0: Monday comes early. This chapter closes. A new door opens. This is the second shift.

speaker-1: you you you

speaker-0: You know, it's funny, I've never really felt burned out in emergency medicine and I've worked a ton of shifts, but it's always because I was doing other things. So I'd always say, well, I'm a physician and the and is kind of what saved me. You know, was going back to school, I was starting the business, I was doing whatever. I would always look forward to the whatever. When I was doing the whatever, I'd always look forward to like, oh man, I miss going in the ER.

speaker-1: John Schufeld has an M.D., an MBA, and a J.D. He founded an urgent care business before urgent care was a thing. He sold an early telemedicine company to Walmart. And last year he put his name on a medical school at Arizona State University. On paper, he's the guy who figured it out.

speaker-2: Absolutely, he's the apex predator, but what we wanted to know is what it actually cost. The years of not taking a salary, the helicopter he had to sell, and whether Stay Hungry, Stay Humble is a philosophy or a brand.

speaker-1: So what we got was someone who's thought a lot about success, what it is and what it isn't. Here's our conversation with John Schufeld. Welcome to the Second Ship podcast, everybody. My name is Brian Jepson. I'm a certified financial planner and a now retired emergency medicine physician. I'm here with my co-host, Aaron Milledge. Aaron.

speaker-2: Good be here, as always. Fourth episode.

speaker-1: Yeah, we're moving right along. We're almost on two hands. We'll get there. So I'm excited to introduce today's guest to you. Like our first guest, Steven Anderson, our guest today has a very long bio.

speaker-2: ⁓ This is a multi-page CV.

speaker-1: Yes, indeed. name is John Schufeldt. John, thank you for coming. I'm going to go over your bio here for a minute and some highlights and then we'll get in deep. But we appreciate you being here.

speaker-0: Pleasure to be here. Thanks, gents.

speaker-1: All right, so John, I'm gonna read the paragraph of the bio verbatim and then I'm gonna hit some highlights and then we're gonna drill. So Dr. John Schufeld is an ⁓ physician and a healthcare entrepreneur with more than three decades of experience building companies, training physicians and serving communities. In October, 2025, he made headlines with a donation to Arizona State University, funding the John Schufeld School of Medicine and Medical Engineering. designed to train the next generation of innovative physicians in partnership with Honor Health. I'm gonna interrupt myself here for a minute. I think that that is very unique and very awesome, and I'm excited to hear more about that combined medical school. But let's hit a few of the other highlights first. So pioneered a lot of different things under your entrepreneurship hat. You started a company. very early on in the urgent care space called Next Care Incorporated. started, it sounds like a very early telemedicine company, MeMed. In 2010, you started a company that deals with Native American healthcare, tribal health. You started a company that is a multinational drug development company, VivaMed. You currently run a venture capital, tech venture capital firm called Accelerant Ventures. You're a TED speaker, you're a lecturer at San Bernardino O'Connor College of Law at ASU. You have an MD, an MBA, and a JD. It sounds like you're either just easily bored or insatiable in terms of your need to make a difference in the world.

speaker-0: I'll let you go both ways, I'm bored and insatiable.

speaker-1: Okay. So the final thing on here is you close every email and again, this is something that I want to dive into deeper. You close every email with your signature, stay hungry and stay humble. So I think that given all the things that you've done, staying humble must be difficult. So I'm interested in number one, why that's your tagline, number two, how you make it happen how you live it, given all that you've done.

speaker-0: Well, the fun answer is I've seen myself naked. So it's easy to stay humble that way. But I also know myself and it's even easier to stay humble. I I barely graduated from high school. ⁓ It's easy to be humble. I've made every mistake in the book, some of them embarrassing and hysterical. And so it's pretty easy to stay humble. it's that old saying in Caramparo, it's the... It's I'm still learning and ⁓ I do feel like, you know, we only get to know a fraction of what's available to know. So it's pretty easy to be humble.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's fantastic. ⁓ Let me ask another question, kind of get things started and then Aaron, I'll let you jump in. ⁓ tell me when in your career you made the decision that you wanted to be more than just a clinician and to start becoming an entrepreneur.

speaker-0: You know, honestly, no one's ever asked me that question before. And it's a great question. And I'm embarrassed to say I don't have a solid answer other than I would see things and think, well, someone had to think of this one already. It can't be me who's come up with this. And then I would do some investigation and say, well, gosh, I don't see any other solutions. And oddly enough, in 92, 93, urgent care was one of those things. ⁓ And so I, there had to be one or two around. but I just didn't know of them. And so when I started it, that was probably my first true entrepreneurial endeavor. But I was an entrepreneur in my mind at 14, selling candles door to door, making and selling candles and doing all the things that kids do to raise money. So I always had this kind of entrepreneurial bent. But in healthcare, I was always seeing a problem, looking for solution, not finding it and then saying, well, I guess it's on me. And then and then trying to come up with it.

speaker-2: So next care, you go from one clinic to 60 locations, 100 million in revenue. ⁓ What almost killed it along the way?

speaker-0: There are so many things that almost killed Nextcare along the way. Lack of funding was a big thing that almost killed Nextcare along the way. I tripled mortgaged the house. I always tell a story. I was two days away from not making payroll. And I had this helicopter that I absolutely loved, this old 500C model. I flew back and forth to work every day. And someone came and said, I'll offer you 250,000 for it. and I think I bought it for 150,000. I put some money into it, but I knew that if I sold it, I could make payroll for the month. And it was one of those happy, unhappy days where you're like, oh my God, thank God I can make payroll and the helicopter I'd loved was flying away. It was mostly finance that almost killed it. And back when I started, health plans didn't really have any contracts for urgent cares. And so it was a real schloss.

speaker-1: So, ⁓ you know, I've talked to various ⁓ founders, you know, just of startup companies and it feels like that's a fairly common theme early on, ⁓ It's a slog to just keep the doors open until you get to it, I guess, until you get a break. When did you know that Nextcare was gonna succeed? What was the break?

speaker-0: Well, the first break was we opened up across from Leisure World in Mesa, which was this large retirement center, and which no one was there in October, but they all started coming back in December. And once they came back, they started coming in the door. But every time we opened a new clinic, there would be, you know, sometimes six months, sometimes never before we'd had cash flow break even. Eventually, we got it down to about 60 days before it had cash flow break even. And so once we got that wheel turning, we knew how to open them, how to do it inexpensively, how to pre-market. That was kind of the turning point. So what we knew when we opened one, generally speaking, about day 28, it would hit cash flow breakeven. But there was a lot of years there where, for years, I didn't think of salary. I'd spend half the night talking to the ceiling fan. Some nights it would respond back to me through sleep deprivation. But I was typically working nights in the ER and weekends in the ER and days in the urgent care, trying to keep the doors open.

speaker-2: So, so you mentioned we in there, is that the Royal we or did you have sort of like a team ⁓ around you? And the reason I ask is, know, Brian and I run against, and he's a good example, you've run against up against doctors that, that do have these outside pursuits that are building businesses that, that, know, have side hustles that turn into something else. And then you have physicians that you can, you can. they alienate or I guess they feel alienated when their colleagues are out building businesses. So did you have a of a core cadre that you were leaning on with Nextcare?

speaker-0: Well, next time we started with there was three of us that started. ⁓ One guy bailed out within the first two weeks, wanted his money back. The second guy who I'm friends with to this day said, look, I'll do one of these with you, but I just don't have the, it's just not my mindset to do more than one. So it was really kind of just me after the first one. And then the gentleman I opened it with just became medical director for all the other ones for years and years What wonderful guy but the first guy bailed out early and so but it was you know guess up to me to make sure the the door stayed open and it was I mean You know you look back and at the time was like wow this is kind of a slide But you look back and say that was a blast you know the best time ever But there's a lot of days when it was just like, you know, are you killing me or are you kidding me? There was a day when I was working, it didn't start out with next care was called Arizona Family and Urgent Care. And so I was working on those. was 4th of July and I'm there and I heard somebody answer the phone. Thank you for calling off. I said, what? And she looked at me and shows off Arizona Family Urgent Care.

speaker-1: you

speaker-0: I was like, how did I, how did I miss this? And so soon thereafter became Nextcare. But there were so many of those like, are you kidding me moments along the way? You'd like, I never thought that would happen, but it was a lot of fun.

speaker-2: I have to ask, how, if I had to take, you you built companies, sold companies, now you invest in companies, and I say, John, you can only do one of these from now on. What version of that work is most satisfying? Which one would you pick from this point forward?

speaker-0: I like the idea of trying to be a force multiplier and helping other physicians and entrepreneurs not make all the same mistakes I did. So I'd probably pick venture capital, but it is a lot of fun building companies. But I think venture capital.

speaker-1: Yeah, I was just going to say it takes the right personality to be a founder of a company, right? Clearly, of your initial three. you were the one that had the right personality to carry it forward. ⁓ I think a lot of people don't, they see the end result of a company getting bought out and making hundreds of millions of dollars or whatever. They don't see all the risk and all the work and the sleepless nights and the selling helicopters for payroll to make it happen early on. So every founder that I've met has that personality. And here you go, you you developed this big company from a great idea, which is now urgent cares are like all over the place. You know, I mean, it was clearly an idea that took off and was the right approach to helping create a place for, you know. emergency medicine without having to go to the emergency departments, but helped me to then say, okay, you've done this, you've created this great company, it's successful, now I'm gonna start over and I wanna build another one, because it looks like about every five years, if I'm looking at the dates on your bio correctly, you've built something new.

speaker-0: So next year was 17 years actually. And then had a disagreement with the board at the end that there's a DOJ investigation. And I said, well, we're going to fight it because we did nothing wrong. And they said, no, we're going to pay them to go away. And I said, that's just not me. I if I'm wrong, I'm the first one to say, guys, I screwed this up. What's it going to take to make it right? I'm happy to do it. If I didn't screw it up, I'll go to the wall. And so they said, no, we'll pay them to go away. So I said, OK, we're going to part ways. And at that point they had control by about a percentage or two. And so about two weeks later I started MeMD, which was an early virtual, early telehealth. And again, you know, people said, you can't do this. It's crazy. No one will see providers virtually. And I started out doing it for behavioral health, which went absolutely nowhere. And then kind of pivoted to urgent care, which again was about a seven year slog. And then sort of picking up some steam and then COVID hit and obviously took off.

speaker-1: Yeah, that was the one business that COVID was really useful for.

speaker-0: Yeah, pretty much it killed a lot of lot of other stuff, but it definitely telemedicine definitely propelled it.

speaker-2: So you sold to Walmart in 2021. What was that day like? Champagne? Something more complicated?

speaker-0: So it's kind of funny, we ended up taking money in for Nextcare, $50 million on the Friday before the Sunday night, Monday morning when Lehman Brothers failed in 2008. I mean, literally skin of our teeth. Sold to Walmart, and within about two weeks, the whole Talmud Esso market totally evaporated because of some decisions some of the larger players made. So the market was still there. It was still profitable. Did all those things. But ⁓ they made some challenges and just crushed their stock price. And so that was a fun day. Walmart was a phenomenal company to sell. I they were the 900 pound gorilla, but they were class acts the entire way. Their CEO was amazing and just had a great relationship with them. I was super impressed. And I've probably been under Walmart two times in my life before that. ⁓ The challenge that they had there, they just weren't quite then yet set up to do healthcare. And so they slid along for about three years and finally one day they said, we're out. ⁓ But and then now me and D exists under a company called Fabric that bought it from Walmart. But it was a fun day.

speaker-1: Yeah, I bet. So when did you stop working clinical shifts or have you?

speaker-0: I really haven't. Until very recently, I still working on the res and I'll still continue to. I was always kind of a doctor of last resort. And so the beauty of flying is most of the reservations at airports right next to them or on them. And I get a little jump on the plane and fly and work a shift and fly back or fly work a couple shifts. So if it was in Arizona, I'd the helicopters in South Dakota or Oklahoma and fly the jet, work some shifts and turn around and fly back. And I loved it. And I loved working in Native America, know, indigenous lands, because those folks are so deserving and have been so under cared for for millennia. So it's time to pay back.

speaker-1: Yeah, I was going to ask, you know, why tribal health? What led you to looking at that problem, which is a big problem that most people haven't found a solution for? What led you to tackle that?

speaker-0: embarrassment. I was inner city ED doc, I took care of a lot of people who are Native American, but I had the opportunity to work as a chief medical officer up in San Carlos, which is 90 miles east of Phoenix, fifth largest city in the country. And I remember there was another contract group that managed emergency department, they were just sketchy is the best way to describe them, it fell apart. And so the CEO said, Hey, John, would you mind do you take over the emergency department? said, well, yeah, I've done that literally for 30 years. So yeah, I'm happy to. So I was working one day, you know, kind of fat dumb and happy. And this guy comes in, he's big, heavy set guy and I'm having an inner bait and his respiratory failure. He's so big, we fly him out on a blockhawk. A couple of weeks later, I see him in the hospital. like, hey, what happened to you? And he goes, I don't know. I said, you have sleep apnea, I bet, don't you? He goes, yeah. And I said, I said, you know, I have sleep apnea. Can I get your machine? He goes, no, John, I have a machine. he was a big dude. said, well, does your mask not fit? I can get you a bigger mask. He goes, no, think my mask fits. I said, well, what happened? He goes, I don't have electricity, And that was my ultimate aha moment of this isn't fair. ⁓ And that literally was it. And so we started bidding on these contracts around the US. And I loved working there because Again, they're very deserving. There's a lot of medical challenges that they have and ⁓ it's ripe for, it's ripe for, they're ripe for help and they're very deserving. What you can't do is go in there and say, you know, you can't be the white savior and go in there and say, I'm, you know, I'm here to fix it all. You've got to go in there and shut up and listen and have some humility and say, I don't know. I don't know what everything you need, but I'm here to listen if I can help count me in. And, and that seems to work.

speaker-1: So on the medical side of things, tell me some of the innovations that you, your, the tribal health brought in that weren't there before. What was your focus of, we're going to do this better.

speaker-0: This will shock you. Board certified physicians. It was, I mean, it's again, well, yeah, our physicians, but they weren't used to board certified physicians and that everything that goes along with board certified emergency medicine, all the tools and tricks we use to practice medicine, a lot of places just didn't have them. It was unheard of. And there's some of these hospitals where I was the first board certified physician they had in there. And I'm sure they had great physicians.

speaker-1: physicians.

speaker-0: I I'm not one of the Mayo brothers, believe me, but I'm sure they had some solid physicians, but they weren't board certified, so they have the level of training that, you Brian, that you had. And so they weren't used to that level of care. And that was one of the larger things. And then, you know, we were flying ⁓ specialists up to San Carlos, you know, one or two times a month, everybody from bariatric surgery, to plastic surgery, to internal medicine, to infectious disease and endocrinology. As opposed to the patients coming down to Phoenix, which was very difficult for them, we'd fly the doctors up to the patients and that worked really well. And then during COVID, we went around the country. I think we had 37 hospitals and taught the staff, those hospitals, how to manage critically ill patients. We had a team of critical care docs and some EM docs and great nurses and RTs. And we basically taught them because they'd have these sick patients and they're used to having a sick patient being like, okay, we're transferring you, but there's nowhere to transfer. So now that a sick patient, they had to manage them for sometimes two and three days.

speaker-1: Yeah, now that's fantastic. I've worked some in critical access hospitals and you know, it's a different type of medicine for sure. know, mean, I've always thought it's interesting that people who work in level one trauma centers, which I've done as well, they're afraid to go out to a critical access hospital because you're there by yourself. You have to manage it. And sometimes it does take... hours if not days to get some of these sick people out.

speaker-0: Yep, yeah you've been there. That's exactly it.

speaker-2: So as you kind of had that epiphany, kind of seeing the side of tribal medicine that was unbeknownst to you before, just the lacking of the basics, maybe some things that certainly we take for granted, but I assume that sort of your worldview changed as this new information came. And so I'm curious, like at that point going forward and looking backwards, know, what's something you believed early on your career that turned out to be completely wrong?

speaker-0: It was, I mean, I mean, I know there's, there's clearly healthcare disparity. mean, anybody who works in an inner city hospital knows there's huge healthcare disparities in ⁓ the U.S. I was loosely unaware or ignorant of how significant those disparities were, particularly in tribal lands, to the point of ⁓ embarrassment. Like how can this be the United States? And how can we allow people not to have running water, not the electricity, not to have a level of care that's a lower third world country? It was egregious to me. And that was it. The other thing is Brian will probably can, I'd likely agree with this. know, it's done, emergency medicine's done a couple of things to me. One is my construct is, you know, you want to be the calmest person in the room. And Aaron, I know as a fighter pilot, that's integral to the... I'm sure to your life and Brian's, but anybody worse than emergency department walking out of a shift on your own two feet, breathing on your own roof over your head, going to a car. There is absolutely nothing you should ever complain about. You know, I always say my worst day is a hundred times better than most of my patients best day. So what on earth can I ever complain about? So that was kind of the contract.

speaker-2: No, it's so like I want to anchor on that that sort of realization or sort of that introspection of ⁓ gratitude and humility and sort of recognizing sort of the disparity that exists not only in healthcare, but I mean, obviously, if you are if we're we're moving into or you're kind of your your endeavors are moving into running a VC fund that's aimed at sort of democratizing access. Does that dovetail with this recognition of disparity?

speaker-0: Totally, totally. It's increased access, increased quality, and lower cost is kind of the three-legged stool. And the fourth one is actually having providers who are well cared for. So, you know, there's been a large people leaving medicine, lot of moral injury, burnout, they call it, but also lot of, mean, it's being a physician and a nurse as well, it's a full contact sport. And we do very little to care for each other. That's not true. The system does very little to care for the people in the system. And I'm sure Brian can echo this. We see a lot of our compatriots who really struggle. And the problem is if you're a physician with a mental health issue and you raise your hand and say, I've got a mental health issue, it's like going to Catholic school. You know, if you have the permanent checkmark and forever you're saying on every application and everything. And I don't think that's fair, nor is it right.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, I think that that's very well said and very important to say is, you know, I I think that's why burnout in emergency medicine in particular is so high, you know, because we're in a often a kind of a thankless specialty if you look at the ⁓ whole medical system, but just in general. ⁓ the system is not, and it seems like it's getting worse. It's not built for physicians. It's built for insurance companies, hospital groups. And that's a change. It didn't used to be that way, I don't think, or at least maybe less that way, but it seems like it's becoming more and more that way, which I think is driving a lot of the. moral injury and the burnout because ⁓ it's hard to stay in that environment if you don't feel like you have any ownership over what's happening.

speaker-0: You know, it's funny, I've always one of the things I've never really felt burned out in the emergency medicine and I've worked a ton of shifts, but it's always because I was doing other things. So I'd always get to say, well, I'm a physician and the and is kind of what saved me. You know, was going back to school, I was starting the business, I was doing whatever. I would always look forward to the whatever. When I was doing the whatever, I'd always look forward to like, oh man, I missed going in the ER. So I think that really helped me. I've got a lot of people over the last year or so who watched the pit. And I don't know, Brian, if you've watched it, but it's.

speaker-1: one episode but then I decided it was too much like work so.

speaker-0: Exactly. Totally true. But they did a phenomenal job. It's compressed, but they did a phenomenal job. had more people say to me, wait, that's what you do? Well, it's spread out a little bit. You know, you don't get 26 patients in an hour who are all dying. But they did a phenomenal job of the realism of emergency medicine.

speaker-1: Yeah, I've heard that. Like I said, when I was in residency, ER came out. I was in residency when ER was popular. My wife watched it, and she'd come home, or I'd come home, and she wanted me to watch it with her. just, number one, I couldn't because I had to keep criticizing the things that they were doing. I no, that's not what, but mostly it was just, it felt like. going to work and I wanted to be away from work. And now with the pick coming out, I've heard great wonderful things about it as a review. But again, it's kind of at this time in my life when I was like, I need to leave trying to get away from this rather than pull it in. But I bet in five years I'll want to go watch it.

speaker-0: They did a nice job.

speaker-2: So John, the both and kind of struck me because we had these conversations internally, like Brian and I have the conversations like, how do you define yourself? Well, it's both and. Or how do you keep yourself grounded? Well, both and. And that could be a lot of things. I'm a pilot and a financial advisor. I'm a physician and a business owner. I'm a whatever. ⁓ Husband and father. You kind of pick your lane there. But I'm curious, you've had so many both ends. ⁓ Like if I bumped into you at a bar and was, know, buy you drink and it's like, hey, which one is actually you? You're a doctor, a lawyer, entrepreneur, investor, philanthropist. What would you tell me?

speaker-0: I was born to be an actor. That's home for me. Since I was five years old, was like, no, I wasn't quite sure I'd do there since I truly barely got out of high school. But for me in my head at least, I was born to be a physician.

speaker-2: And so you mentioned some challenges and setbacks and this is second time you mentioned the high school. ⁓ What was the one, I guess, life-defining, worldview-defining challenge or setback where you're like, okay, learn my lesson. I barely made it through this and now I'm going to apply this going forward.

speaker-0: You know, I think it was as easy as just the belief in myself. You know, when I went to college, I started dating a girl who studied a lot. I got across to all of our friends, studied a lot. If I want to hang out with them, I ended up studying. And his roommate said, I want to go to medical school. And I said, you know, I've always wanted to go to, I was a sociology major. said, I always want to go to medical school. And I thought to myself, well, God, if he can do it, maybe I could do it too. And so I started studying. I'm like, oh my God, got an A, like first day in my life. And then I got another A. And then I'm like, holy cow, I think I can do this. And that literally is what, that's literally what, when it started, it was a symbol like, ⁓ maybe I'm not an idiot.

speaker-1: So let me carry that on a little bit. Now you're an MD, you're a doctor, and I don't know, is your neighbor a lawyer or something, or what took you to the next step of now I need to be a JD?

speaker-0: Well, so when I started Nextcare, I had zero business knowledge. I I was kind of entrepreneurial, but I couldn't read a financial model. I couldn't write a financial model. So I better learn how to do that. So in 93, I went back, got an MBA, and I totally loved it. Two years. And then, I try to go back about every 10 years. And so then at some point, I thought, there's going be a time when I don't want to And maybe I'll get injured or hurt or sick and I can't do emergency medicine. But what do I want to do? Well, I'd love to defend physicians in front of the medical board because I think they kind of bum rap a lot. so, you know, clearly are some of our compadres deserve it. They deserve to get a little slap down, but not all of them. And so I thought, well, who better to defend physicians than a physician? So I went back to law school. I did it in two and a half years. I did like super full time. still worked in the air and stuff. And I started going defending physicians in front of the medical board and having hysterical stories. But I didn't really love it because it was kind of a kangaroo court. And if the guy before your guy pissed them off, the brunt of it fell on your guy. And so I did not love it. So I still, I would go back and teach. I look at a lot of contracts and stuff and still write, but I haven't gotten it from the medical board back. I've worked in quite a while.

speaker-1: I love that progression because I identify with that too because even though I'm no longer a practicing clinical physician, as a financial advisor, most of my clients are physicians. So it's still that connection to medicine I don't think ever goes away.

speaker-0: Right. Yeah, we want to take care of our own.

speaker-2: So in that vein, know, when a young or even a later career physician wants to be an entrepreneur, you know, comes to you or you have the opportunity to sort of speak some wisdom in that situation, you know, what do you tell them and what are common mistakes that you see them making that you made that you steer them away from?

speaker-0: So I mean, so I guess with my venture capital, venture capital hat on, it's, you know, find a look for a problem, look for a problem that's tough to solve, expensive to solve, repetitive, and see if anybody else has solved it. And if no one else has solved it, say, okay, why? Look at that and then say, do you have a solution that's that makes it solvable? And if you do, what sort of moat can you build around it? And meaning is there an IP mode around as a first mover advantage, whatever the mode is, and then look for a way, can it scale after you develop your MVP, whatever your MVP is. So I try to walk people through this whole construct. And then the other part is just kind of the, the personal side of it, is. But being an entrepreneur is the best thing in the world. But I will tell you there is zero work-life balance. You guys know this, there's zero work-life balance of being an entrepreneur. Are you ready for that? And are you ready for all the strains, personal and professional strains to come along with it? And if you are, and you meet those other criteria, go for it. And let me fund you. And so I love funding physicians who solve, and other healthcare people who solve these problems, because in my sense, in my mind, who better than those inside to fix it? And if you don't want to do it, that's okay, but then maybe you should invest, invest, and then so others can do it, and you can be part of it. So that was the genesis of the venture capital, honestly. Be a fixer or a founder.

speaker-2: The work-life balance, I mean, that lands, again, for a lot of the folks that we work with, a lot of the folks we speak to, it's a surprise, right? Everybody thinks like, oh, well, I'm going to have a normal life and I'm going launch this product or this service and I'm going to go enjoy the beer and the hammock at 2 p.m. That's not the case. So my question for you, what did that work-life balance look like and what does a day off look like for you? Do you have day offs?

speaker-0: So I don't really take many day offs, but that's something I work a lot and I don't really consider much of what I do work. I mean, there are times when, you know, we're like, are you f'ing kidding me? But for most times I really love what I do. So it never feels like, I if you ask me, I've got great work-life balance, but if you ask people around me, ⁓ I'm sure they'll say like, John has no balance. He's all work. But you know, I get the fly. I work out. I get the fun. I have a winery. get this taste wine, get through all stuff I totally love doing. So that to me is pretty good balance. But my balance is probably a little skewed compared to what the normal like, ⁓ I spend half of my time at home and half of work. So I think it's what you make out of it as a short.

speaker-2: I think that's incredible perspective is that it's one, it's ⁓ just so unique to the individual. ⁓ you can just sort of paint it as a broad brush. You have to have balance. You have to find the pieces that make you whole ⁓ that are gonna energize you and motivate you and not destroy other things you've built around you. ⁓ it may not look like a classically defined work-life balance.

speaker-1: Yeah, it doesn't have to be time equivalent, right?

speaker-0: That's the answer.

speaker-1: So I want to have some time to hear more about the medical school. When I first read about it or saw an announcement about it, I thought, what an amazing idea to couple. Because you're basically creating the physician entrepreneurs of the future, right? ⁓ And giving them the education, the background to create. bioengineered products, it sounds like is that kind of why don't you ask more about it.

speaker-0: And just to be clear, it was not my idea. ⁓ I had gone.

speaker-1: If your name's on it so you get credit.

speaker-0: No, so I went out there didn't a night before people from ASU health and we're talking about different things and I said wouldn't we gonna set a medical school I mean come on and they all kind of looked sheepishly down at the table and I remember thinking well It's kind of an odd response and then next day president crow says our issues in a medical school So call away said look I want to be involved I don't care if I'm sweeping the floor, but I want to be involved I don't know good 30 years left to me. I can sleep like hell and so As I got more involved, I went around and interviewed everybody. That's a bad way to say it. I went on and met with everybody and I went back to President Crowe's office and I said the one thing they all have in common is they work here for free. mean, that's how enthusiastic people were. It was pretty cool. And so this medical school engineer, you know, kind of this physician engineers, there's two other schools in the country that do this, but they're very it's like medical courses, engineering courses, issues very combined, they will be they'll be intertwined. The Dean of the medical school is I call her a functional psychiatrist. She's a total rock star. Her CV is 130 pages long, single space.

speaker-1: She's our next guest.

speaker-0: I'll say this, she's amazing and the head of ASU, Shreen, same way, I total, I mean total mover and shakers. And so the sort of physicians that will, that they'll be creating are these physicians who think... They'll be good enough to think individually on the patient in front of them, but also you have to think systemically on how to improve a system. I've been interviewing some of the students. I've looked at lot of applications and I always laugh thinking, okay, here's a medical school I could never have gotten into. Because the kids that I'm interviewing are like, holy crap. mean, some of them are just off the charts smart and they've done all sorts of crazy things. It gives me a lot of hope for the future of healthcare.

speaker-1: Well, to me, just the fact that you would apply to that medical school, realizing that you get a dual degree in medical engineering and medicine, that tells that set you apart as a breed, a different breed of physician, right? Because most physicians who end up changing the world kind of I don't want to say fall into it, but that's not their original goal. The original goal is to become a doctor and take care of patients. But then they're smart enough that they can go in and see the problem and come up with a solution. But you're breeding a group of physicians that are looking for the problems from the very beginning, which I think is a fascinating and brilliant idea.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's exactly right. So I'm super excited to be involved in.

speaker-2: involved in it. Is that the legacy? mean, like when you're gone at the end of the day, what do want people to remember? Is it the companies, the schools, something else, the recognition of disparity in tribal medicine? What is that?

speaker-0: I would hope I would be remembered as someone who was kind. If that's how I'm remembered, I will be thrilled to someone who's kind.

speaker-2: And through all irrespective of the ventures, that's sort of the thread that ties everything together.

speaker-0: I think so. mean, I've seen it, you know, as a pebble in a pond effect. And I was funny. was I was texting with this young lady last night. She I'd mentored her when she was started when she was 16. She's now a full partner, a breast surgeon on the East Coast. Total rock star. And and she's texted me and said we're talking about back and forth. She says, I'm meeting somebody and they talked about the medical school. And I said, oh, she said, oh, he's my mentor. I added the medical school because of him. I said, no, no, no. said, you got into medical school because of you. I may have given you some guidance. Some of it may have been okay along the way, but you got into medical school. was nothing to do with me. But I like that pay it forward sort of aspect that we get to do as physicians when we are around medical students and undergrad and residents. Because I know Brian and Aaron too, you've seen fighter pilots who were your predecessors and you go, here's what I learned from you. I don't want to be like you. We were up with physicians where like, you might be brilliant, but I don't want to be like you. And so, you know, hopefully people who've met with all three of us said, wow, they did this. I want to be like them. They want to be the good example that pays it forward. Not the example of like, I don't know what I want to do, but it ain't going to be that.

speaker-1: I think that's really well said because, you know, mean, kindness and just civility, especially in medicine. But I'm sure in plenty of other kind of high impact driven fields are. They stand out, it stands out, you know, and if you stand out in a good way like that, it's a magnet and people people want to be around you. and they want to learn from you and that gives you more opportunity to grow and do the things that you like to do. yeah, absolutely. Kindness, seed, success, I would say.

speaker-0: And it's ridiculously low bar. I mean, how are they kind? And you look around today and you look at all the things we see in the in society in the news, or people just simply are not kind to each other. And you're like that, how hard is this? You know, we all share 99.3 % of our genetic information. We're all basically twins. So how can you ever discriminate or be prejudiced or bigoted or anything? I mean, we're we're all

speaker-1: Yeah, no perspective. is. All right. So ⁓ let's start wrapping it up a little bit. You know that we could keep talking forever. I think I mean, you're just so interesting to have so many so many great experiences and things that you've done. But what we do at the close of a of our podcast is we put you in the hot seat for a minute. ⁓ We call it we call it the reckoning. ⁓ And so we basically, Aaron is going to deliver a few questions, just short answers, no hedging. ⁓ Just give us what's top of mind and then we'll go from there.

speaker-0: It's like word discoloration.

speaker-1: It doesn't have to be that short.

speaker-2: Okay, this is softball. Okay, so we're just gonna start easy. We'll get you into the reckoning real smooth. What's the thing you still wanna do that you haven't done?

speaker-0: Go Dave.

speaker-2: ⁓ okay. Good. Okay. ⁓

speaker-1: It's interesting as a helicopter pilot and a pilot.

speaker-2: I never want to leave a perfectly good airplane, but okay. respect that. Exactly. Okay. I need you to finish the sentence. I wish I had spent less time on blank and more time on blank.

speaker-0: I wish I'd spent less time on worrying and more time on proactive problem solving.

speaker-2: What's the one thing you got wrong about success?

speaker-0: ⁓ Wow, that's a tough one. That it. The one thing I'm wrong about success is you have to be special to achieve it. I can say, let me rephrase that. I never thought you had to be special to be successful. I think you just have to be like a dog with a bone. You just have to be resilient. So I'm trying to think of the double negative there. So I probably bombed that answer.

speaker-2: What's the one question you hoped we wouldn't ask?

speaker-0: The one question I hoped you wouldn't ask. ⁓ If I worked out this morning.

speaker-2: We're not gonna ask. Okay. Okay, well you survived the reckoning. Thank you,

speaker-1: Yeah. So ⁓ John, thank you again for being a guest and for all the, you know, just again, I think we could tap into multiple times if you're willing and just dive further into your experience. You know, our purpose of this podcast is to how do you maintain identity through your transitions? And you've been through many, transitions. Let me ask this final question. Do you think you'll ever retire?

speaker-0: ⁓ No, I can't imagine. can't. So, you know, I saw this quote a long time ago. It's on your deathbed, you'll meet the person you could have become. And there's a patient story I tell about this about seeing a guy on his deathbed with this look on his face that I felt so bad for him because I knew he was meeting the person he could have become at that moment. And so I can't imagine. I mean, I can imagine taking more time off because I don't take much time off, but I can't imagine ever not stopping. But I would leave people with this, and I'm completely sincere. If I can do it, anybody can. You just have to be too dumb to quit. ⁓ And that was always me. It's like I'm just too dumb to quit. So most things you can grind your way through, and people are always that one step away from success, and many people quit right before that step. Don't quit.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's great final words. You know, that's wonderful advice. Sometimes it takes a little bit of luck to make things happen. But a lot of work goes into being in the position to receive that luck, if that's the right way to say it, right? there are breaks that happen in life, but it takes a lot of effort to... ⁓ to make those happen. And so I think you're a great example of that. You've clearly done a lot of work throughout your life and continue to do that. You've been able to solve a lot of problems and to carry out that theme of being kind throughout, I think, is a great legacy. So thanks again.

speaker-2: Okay, so here we are. John is the guy who's done more in a one career, one singular career than most people do in five. So the question is what landed with you? What's real? What did we miss? And if we could do it over again, what would we do?

speaker-1: I mean, you know, I think John has an amazing, incredible, interesting story, right? I mean, it's well beyond what most of us will ever try, even attempt to ⁓ bite off. And you know, there's a lot in there. There's a lot in there. It's hard even pick out ⁓ the most important things because there's so many. But one thing that definitely stood out to me as a... ⁓ emergency medicine physician is the story that he told ⁓ about kind of, you know, what led him to, to really ⁓ take tribal health to the next level. And, and that's what was the guy who, who, you know, was basically on death's bed because of respiratory problems. And he asked him about what led him there. And, and don't you have a CPAP machine or what are some of the things that you're doing in You know, he revealed that yes, he has a CPAP machine, but it doesn't do him any good because he doesn't have any electricity. And that hit home to me because I mean, I think, I mean, there's lots of times in the emergency department that I would prescribe medication to somebody knowing full well that they probably weren't going to go fill it. And, know, and part of me feels like, well, I've done what I can. You know, this is... The rest is up to them. ⁓ But the reality is that John saw the systemic problem in that and did yeoman's work to change the system. And that's a whole different level of ⁓ caring as a physician, say.

speaker-2: Yeah, no, ⁓ that landed with me because it's not necessarily congruent, right? Like, here's a guy that's founded, sold companies, exited, ⁓ built new things, sold those things, ⁓ and kind of has obtained this 1 % level. And he is moved ⁓ by this singular experience to notice the disparity in... kind of medical ⁓ outcomes in, in the, in tribal health. And so he does something about it. And so it kind of takes that, you know, what he, what he talked about when he talks to young investors of, Hey, you know, find a problem that no one's ill solved. You have a solution for it. Find your moat. He saw that it just, it, it wasn't in, you know, biotechnology or whatever. was simple access to healthcare. You know, he saw the, the, what was not being provided through the marketplace and created that solution.

speaker-1: And not just healthcare, electricity. Even the more basic level of need that, like you said, you just said, we take it for granted. And they can't even access healthcare. It's even getting them to the point where they can do something about the healthcare that they've received. Yeah, that's on another level.

speaker-2: Yeah ⁓ And, know, I think that that sort of, he mentioned that line of too dumb to quit, right? Which sort of sticks from a grit perspective. But it's, if anything, I mean, he mentioned the story about, ⁓ you know, barely making it through high school and changing his major in college and figuring out how to study and stuff. But it's clear that John, don't know that I would put my money on that being the singular source of his success. I think that, and especially the way that he talked highly about the medical students, their brilliance, their approaching problems in novel ways, how he looks at investments and potential founders. This is not the language or action of a guy who just brute forces his way through things. There's a lot of deliberate thought. and analysis going on. ⁓ And so it struck me that that was his sort of response was I was just too dumb to quit. That's not something that you normally kind of capture from a person who has gone through successful founding and exiting of businesses. Granted, grid is an important component, but usually somebody says, well, I had this particular mentor, I learned this. You know, I had the skill set that I leveraged. so ⁓ that was, that was kind of an interesting, took me, gave me pause when he said that.

speaker-1: Yeah. Well, and the same for me is kind of his closing, maybe not argument, but statement was when we asked him, what would you like to be remembered by the most? And again, a guy who has incredible list of accomplishments over his life. And you remember what he said?

speaker-2: Kind. When did you remember it as kind?

speaker-1: being kind. ⁓ You know, and to me, I think that that that impacted me a lot. You know, I mean, I, I've never been in the military. And I'd be interested to hear your take on that, because I assume that there's there's some reinforcement for for being perceived as the tough guy, you know, among leadership to those that you're leading. I can tell you in medicine, there's a couple of different kinds of doctors that even outside of training that are there just working with colleagues in a hospital system. And one is the doctor that nobody likes to talk to because they're just, you know that they're just going to berate you for things that you don't have any control over. They're just angry and upset and they just don't They're irritated that you're calling them to require more work of them. Or there's the other doctor on the other side of that that's very collegial, very kind, very helpful. those are the two. And then there's a lot of people that are kind of in between, but those are the two types of doctors that are remembered and talked about. And guess who people want to be around and want to look at. kind of look up to and seek help from and be ⁓ mentied by. It's the kind, it's the people who are kind and helpful. And, ⁓ you know, that's meaningful. And it's like he said, it's a pretty low bar. Tell me what your military experience is like.

speaker-2: Yeah, I mean, you have the two extremes, right? You have like the silverback gorilla who, mean, he's untouchable, right? Like he's great at what he does, but man, it's a test of your patience and ego to learn from him, right? ⁓ On the other side, there's sort of like, you what we always called was the Santa Claus, right? Like the nice guy who you, like if you were a struggling student, you were like, man, I hope I get Santa Claus because you know that you were going to pass the ride and... things were gonna go okay. I think that to your point that the bulk of the distribution is just somewhere in middle. But the days define the person. Some days they're Santa Claus and some days they're not. And I think that the consistency is what is sort of the other variable in there. Yeah, it's a low bar of kindness and human decency and kind of paying it forward, but also just being consistent day after day. And so, you know, in, in John's case, you know, it's kind of asked the question of, of, know, is it, is it kindness? Is it, you know, relentlessness or those two compatible? Is it relentless kindness is, know, because this is the guy who is. There is no second shift, right? Let's just, let's just say what it is. Like he, has second shifted, ⁓ multiple times, but, ⁓ staying anchored to, emergency medicine. and I think that, you know, I wish we had gotten the chance to peel it back a little bit and talk about, know, well, you know, John, like, yeah, you're some things you do are kind, but, know, you are relentless and, you know, aggressively pursuing these, these outcomes, you know, those mutually exclusive? You know, how do you reconcile those? Because, it's hard to find again, military experience or otherwise someone who is, is truly day after day. selfless, like you were doing acts of kindness. Minute after minute, day after day. And that is your defining characteristic. Like that is truly kind of the, the unicorn of, of character traits, right?

speaker-1: Well, I yes, I definitely see that. think the question is, where's ambition fit within the kindness ⁓ model? And I don't think it needs to be mutually exclusive personally. I I think you can be relentless and ambitious without putting other people down along the way, lifting other people up. And honestly, I think that helps you achieve your goals more. ⁓ you're more likely to achieve them because other people, again, people that can help you want to be around you and ⁓ you become a team leader instead of just, you know, just kind of the relentless ⁓ person who's just trying to do it on their own. Right. And so, so I mean, I, what, but that, is a good question and something that we really didn't dive into much with him is, yeah, he has a humongous list of accomplishments, but at what cost? What personal cost? We talked a little bit about some of the financial costs and the time costs and things that it required of him. What about the personal costs? Because it would be a rare individual who can do what he did ⁓ without leaving some relationships in the wake of that.

speaker-2: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's, you know, when we look at kind of the so-whats, the actionable takeaways, you know, like I mentioned, the second shift is sort of like a perpetual thing for him, right? He always kind of held onto that identity and execution as emergency medicine, but then dovetailed these other endeavors alongside. And I think that's, you know, he put it that the and is what saved him, a physician and something else. And so when you get burned out or, you know, disillusioned with medicine, he had this other thing to fall back on. And when that burned him out or got disillusioned with that, he kind of went back to medicine. And that's, think that's great. And I think that's that's sort of, that's a thread that we've pulled on a couple of times with the second shift of having, ⁓ you know, optionality and something that defines a purpose for you. But there's a trade space. then you kind of hit it of, of at what, at, know, you're, you're relational capital, ⁓ doing the end, right? Because there's only so much time and sort of relational, ⁓ coins you can shuffle around. And, and so what's the true cost. I, I think this is something that you and I have talked about of, I don't know that people go through the thought experiment of, you know, I need, I need to, you know, the, the second shift transition or finding other things that that dovetail with what they're doing to add a level of intellectual stimulation or whatever, and they fail to take in the impact to relationships. And I think that that's a huge takeaway. It was an unspoken takeaway, right? But as we look back and sort of deconstruct this, I think that's the question that keeps coming back is what's the relational cost to run this and model of physician? executive business owner and you know, something else. How much horse trading do you have to do with your relationships to make that happen?

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting show though. Fascinating guy. Definitely appreciate everything that he gave to us.

speaker-2: I want to, I want to, I want to quick reckoning with you. ⁓ so you just retired from medicine, right? and you know, here, here is John, ⁓ never retiring for medicine as it's as, as stated or as such, ⁓ does that appeal to you or concern you or how do you, how do you view that? ⁓ having recently retired.

speaker-1: You know, yes, I've retired from medicine, but I'm not retired. So it doesn't feel, doesn't feel maybe the same as it would ⁓ if, I had just retired, retired, ⁓ you know, because I, since I'm just as busy, if not busier doing what I'm doing now, as I was just working shifts in the emergency department, I still facing the same battle and balance of, of of relationship capital versus work and interest capital. ⁓ And so I'll be honest, there are some things that he said that kind of pulled me back and say, yeah, know, was, medicine is cool. I appreciate that part of it. And some of what he said that said, yeah, I really like what I'm doing outside of medicine on the business development side and all that kind of stuff. But maybe what it left me with is ⁓ it's okay that I'm not retiring ⁓ because part of my persona is ⁓ staying busy. again, I think the biggest balance for me is feeding that without losing. balance with my family.

speaker-2: Well, okay. Well, I'll do an unsolicited reckoning to myself. ⁓ as I thought about that guy, I mean, I was, I was reminded of, ⁓ I think it's Heracles, somebody that's listening that knows, ⁓ Greek philosophers better than I.

speaker-1: Now this is the second time you mentioned him so you get...

speaker-2: Really? Okay. Yeah, it always comes back to, you know, no man steps in the same river twice, right? Cause it's not the same river and he's not the same man. And so, you know, we look back on these previously kind of identity defining high achieving careers. And I'm sure you remember like the awesome parts, like you said, like the cool parts of is cool, but like what's conveniently hidden by our brains is like all of the baggage and sort of the pounds of flesh that you have to exchange to extract that coolness. And I think that was, you know, I, I, I felt myself kind of, kind of going through that, that mental exercise of thinking about that is, as John was talking about the kind of the, the both and going back and forth and always kind of keeping one, one foot in the old river as it were.

speaker-1: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you, Aaron. That is our show. Thank you for listening to our fourth episode of the Second Shift podcast, where we talk about how to successfully navigate the often challenging transition from a high impact career. We appreciate our guest, Dr. John Schufelt. For more information about him, check out the show notes. And if you're interested in learning more about our financial planning services, check us out at targetedwellsolutions.com. You can find links to all of our episodes at the number2ndsecondshiftpodcast.com. And if you found this podcast useful, please subscribe and tell your friends. Take care, everybody.

speaker-0: The work you did mattered. And you're not done. Welcome to what's next. Thank you for listening to the Second Shift. If this conversation landed with you, please download our free guide called the Second Shift Blueprint. Five questions you and your partner should discuss before any major transition. Get it at SecondShiftPodcast.com. That's number2ndshiftpodcast.com. And if you're approaching a transition and want to talk through the financial strategy, we offer a complimentary 30-minute Second Shift audit. Details are at SecondShiftPodcast.com slash audit. Join us next week for another great episode. And remember, your life and identity doesn't end with retirement. It's just entering its second shift. The content shared in this podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered personal financial advice. You should always consult with a financial professional to determine what is appropriate for your individual circumstances.