Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Hello, this is the first episode of the coaching method, and I am Olga Kovcinova-Shakzedi, and I have here with me Lena Gustafson, the ICF accredited coach with more than 24 years of experience. Welcome Lena and would you like to add something to my introduction?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: No, I don't really think so. It was a nice introduction. My name is, you said, Gustafsson. I'm based in Sweden and work, of course, in Sweden, but also internationally. yeah, from my own company, Guldkampen, I do my coaching and have been doing for some years now.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Can you tell me a bit more what who do you coach and what kind of coaching you do?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: I coach all kinds of people actually. do coaching in private sector and in public sector, in NGOs. A lot of my clients right now are entrepreneurs and startups, but I also do coaching with CEOs and teachers and all kinds of people. Some private coaching, but not that much. In addition to that, also do mentor coaching, which is when I coach other coaches on their coaching. That was a difficult sentence, but as a coach, we always need to keep ourselves developing and mentor coaching is about doing that and taking coaching on the specific methods and practices we have of coaching.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: I have several questions for you I am really curious about, but I'm gonna start with this one. as mentioned before, you started coaching quite some time ago before the internet and all the videos and the coaching becoming a buzzword. So how did you come across coaching and why did you decide to become a coach?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Well, actually I'm a preschool teacher as my first occupation and when I left there and I studied a lot of psychology and sociology and stuff like that, I'm really interested in how people think and work and learn. That's kind of my area of interest. and why we do the things we do and why we sometimes don't do the things we say we do or want to do. And when you're working with children you're always working with what is and what wants to grow. And as I stepped into working with grown-ups as a consultant I wanted to continue in that direction. And I was, there was internet, but it wasn't, as you say, it's not the way it was right now. for me living in the Swedish countryside, that was my way into finding other people with the same interests. And I found International Coaching Federation, ICF. And I found a lot of people thinking my way around looking at what wants to be and what wants to happen and what is working and building on that. And I realized there was a name for this method. It's called coaching. And that's how I got started. So, yeah, that was my way into it. By then there was International Coaching Federation. So coaching has come closer and closer to me. By then I had to go internationally to find. small group of people and then as coaching has expanded there was ICF Nordic and ICF Sweden and I became more and more committed to and engaged in International Coaching Federation's work with making sure that coaching is regulated that when you hire a coach you know what you get. We have credentials and we have specific standards and stuff like that to make sure that in a method that can be so many different things even though the basic of coaching is the core competencies but it can look very different depending on who you are and what you need and to then have some kind of security as a coachee, as somebody who takes coaching and knowing that there will be a level of quality in what I get. So that was a long answer to a short question.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: That was not a very short question and I stacked question, which you shouldn't do as a coach, but we are not in a coaching session.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: We're not in a coaching session now. No, this is a different kind of conversation.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: So I really it's really resonated with me that you said that you it's important for you to see coaching regulated, to see certain standards, that people can know what they get, what to expect, and you know, as something Almost every time I go to LinkedIn I open it and I would see some negative words about coaching, mostly from people who didn't encounter the ICF accredited or trained coaches because it's so unregulated, right? today I've read I've read such post. There were some if I recall correctly some mention that coaches just talk and ever anyone can say that they are coach.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Hmm.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: and with the amount of years you are in the profession, how do you think we as the ICF trained accredited coaches can fight for our reputation?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Well, I think for one thing it's about kind of educating the market, but also as coaches to be responsible of who we are and what we do. Actually within the European Union coaching is considered a self-regulated industry which means that the industry itself takes a body to regulate and there are of course more coaching bodies than ICF. It's just that that's where I started and that's become my home base. And coaching is a word, it's a word that can be used and during these 20 years I've seen it become very modern and then go out of fashion and then come back again and I always like the parts best when coaching as a word is a little bit out of fashion because then it usually is used on coaching. But sometimes it's used as another word for training. Sometimes it's used as another word for giving advice. Which makes it very confusing. And that's why I tell people I meet that if you want coaching the way I work with it and the way... It's defined as as the method of coaching pure coaching then you can always look for For three letters you can look for ICF because you know there's a core standard there and then you can look for three more letters if you want you can look for ACC PCC or MCC which can show you The level of experience your coach has basically where ACC is this is a coach that has the training knows the basics of the method and is building a Good coaching. PCC stands for professional. ACC stands for associate. PE stands for professional. Then you know you have a coach who has done more hours, who has built an experience and is building a body of knowledge. And then when you go to the end, the MCC, the master coaching, then you have a very experienced coach who has done thousands of hours. So there are ways to kind of tell what kind of coaching, but you can also, you can ask because they may be into another coaching body, but they can always explain to you what kind of coaching they mean when they say, I can give you coaching. And I think a lot of the disappointment is around. people not really knowing what to expect and getting all kinds of things because as you say, anyone can call themselves a coach without any training. But you cannot call yourself a credentialed coach within any coaching body unless you actually have the training and the practice. So that's why I hold the credentialing as one part of how we as coaches can be responsible in making sure that there is a reliable market.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Hmm. And how often do you have clients who come to you that have a I wouldn't call it wrong, but a different idea of coaching than ICF defined coaching is.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: I would say that most clients who haven't had coaching before, they really don't know what it is that they are getting into. So we usually start by talking a little about the specifics about a coaching conversation, about the fact that they are owning this. am not their advisor. I'm not the one with the answers. I'm good at holding the conversation, holding the room for them and challenging them and supporting them. But as a difference to when I'm working as a consultant or giving presentations or lectures or stuff, in a coaching conversation, my role is not to bring the answers, but to bring the right questions. And that sounds confusing. And I often give people a tryout session if they are wondering about how could that work. But actually, We do need that space and time to challenge ourselves and to really think our thoughts through. And when we do that on our own, when it becomes difficult or we get to a point where we are challenging our own beliefs or... our own values or what we think we know about the world or about ourselves. When that becomes difficult and we're doing it on our own, then we usually drop the topic, go get some coffee and do something else. We can run away from it. But when you've dedicated an hour, an hour a half or 15 minutes or whatever you decided was... time span for this coaching session, then you have a person there who stands beside you and holds you to that thing that you said in the beginning that you wanted to figure out or explore or whatever. Holds you to that challenge and gently follows you through to see what is there, right beside what you think you know. And that's where the new revelations come.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Hmm. So speaking of revelations, I wanted to ask you something like do you have a common theme, some common thread maybe, maybe not, that your clients come to you with, like question, problem.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Mmm. Well, if I am to look at all my clients from all the different aspects, usually the first questions, since they're usually work related, I do have and have had some private coaching, life coaching, but usually the first issues that they bring up are work related or around stress or time management or something. They are real topics and real subjects. But I also know that as we go along, as we work, it becomes also life coaching because we are human beings doing stuff, working, getting our lives together, putting the pieces together in different ways. So whatever topic, it always grows into something concerning both the person and the... work situation or stress or time management or sometimes when I'm working with entrepreneurs, common topics are time management of course, business building, leadership. developing yourself in pace with your business as your business grows you need to develop as a leader you need to find new sides of yourself perhaps develop new skills and you want to do that and still be the person you want to be and do things your way and sometimes with entrepreneurs there there are issues around money, around having money or not having money, thinking about money in big numbers, stuff like that. So yeah, it varies a lot, but it usually starts in work.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Yeah.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: I guess it's kind of a safe space to start with something that is work related.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: to test test the waters, right? what how it works.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Mmm, little bit, yes.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Yeah, because while you were talking also what came up for me is that most of the people nowadays have to work. I guess there's some people with inherited wealth that can afford not to, but most of us have to, and there are many reasons besides the c self actualization and f fulfilment from work, right? families the wish to give good life for our kids and things like that. So I think that's that's a moment for me when I realized that okay you can't separate right the executive and leadership coach completely from a life coach because if you're not aligned with your values and goals in your life, in your professional life, it's not gonna work. Right? If if

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah, I strongly believe in people doing their life their own way, including family life and personal stuff and work. Do your own personal combination of that and that becomes strong. Whether you want to be a strong leader or a strong... income earner or whatever you want. What is your main goal? That doesn't really matter. And I think we all have all of these different goals going on at the same time. And sometimes

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Mm.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: they can work together. Sometimes they compete. Like I want to be spending a lot of time with my family and be a close parent, perhaps being present with my children. And I want my career to grow or I want my business to grow. And these goals compete. And we need to find that space where We feel that this is good enough on all levels. Good enough on income, good enough on family, good enough on me, good enough on health, whatever.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Would say that I loved how you've formulated that because good enough is my favorite description lately. you know, as you know, I'm a parent to a young child child expecting another, trying to build my business, starting this podcast, trying to keep relationship with my husband afloat, and

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Mm-hmm.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: everywhere my goal is just to do good enough. Just good.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah, because all of these different

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Yeah.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: things that you're trying to do, they are competing about your resources, your time, your energy, all of that. And we need to make choices and they don't have to be forever and they don't have to be that dramatic. If we decide that good enough is a good level, like we decide this is good enough, that is good. That doesn't mean that we're leaving something. not done at all, but also that we can focus on one or two of them and still be satisfied with the rest of them. Because this is the level I decided is good enough.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: And that's where coaching can come in to help someone to define their good enough, right? Because this is so personal.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah, exactly. That's very personal and it depends on situation, depends on context, it depends on who you are and what's important for you and those things. Figuring that out is a lot about what coaching is. but also figuring out where are my strengths? Am I using them in a good way? Where are my challenges and how can I grow myself in these areas or protect myself? Because sometimes challenges are soft spots that we need to find ways to protect. And if we do that with awareness, we can... We can do it in a way that supports us rather than just put some walls and frames that stops us from doing things we want to do.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: How how do you help your clients with their strengths? Do you have any sort of like personality typing that you use

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Actually not. I usually try to avoid personality tests or typings or putting things in boxes because that tends to become a truth because somebody else said that. So I work a lot with my clients on Tearing this out on their own. Sometimes through metaphors or stories. What are the stories you are telling yourself about yourself? What are your experiences? What are your longings? And within that, finding your strengths. Not that it's wrong working with personality tests and stuff, but... Sometimes it boxes people in and sometimes people come to me with a test that they have taken and then we can work on that and see what does that mean to you. Not what does it mean, what does it say, but how do you read this? How does this resonate with you? What in this do you believe? What in this is not who you think you are and how can that be?

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: That's very interesting because I think I met more coaches that use particular personality tests than not

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Mm-hmm.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: and I really I really like your approach. And I I just wanna tell you that I think it's nice that like you have with all these years you really found out your way of working and that's your way of working with your clients and again there's nothing nothing wrong with that. That You're good enough, I guess.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: And I think it's also part of it comes from my teaching experiences and my experiences with growth and development in children and youth that you can do the tests, that you can get a result that says something about now and if it's a good test and it's scientifically valid and stuff like that then you can say something more and something more credible. But people keep surprising themselves and others. People keep changing and developing and doing amazing stuff. And I'm more curious about what is going on right now with you than what does the test say? So it's about building on where we are and challenging that and striving for the goals that you say you want to reach and figuring out what's stopping you if something is.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: So that's very curious and made me think like how much of those tests affect us in the way that we actually act as the tests present or we heard it about ourselves and we just keep going that path because we've been told that's who we

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah, we know there is this thing in psychology called self-fulfilling prophecy.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Mm.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: If you tell people something, they will believe in it sooner or later. And it's been tested over and over again. If you tell people that they are very good in mathematics, they will have better results in mathematics. So that's why I think that there are no limits. And we shouldn't limit ourselves. We should just look at what is it that I want to achieve? What are my powers in doing this? What are my challenges in doing this? And how do I handle that? Then sometimes it is helpful to have like a 360 or a personality test or something to give you like a mirror that you can look into and see, do I recognize myself in this? But it's also like when we look at ourselves in the mirror or in a photograph, it doesn't really always resonate with how we think we look. And that is also the thing about these things. It doesn't always resonate with the thing, with how we think we behave. And then that's something that's interesting. If people keep telling you that you are very pushing forward and you think you are very listening, then there's a gap there that we can explore. But you can get that from all kinds of way. You can get that from asking people around you, from getting feedback, from just listening to people around you and to listening to yourself. yeah.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Hm. You know, I'm curious how w often and did it happen at all that you start working with someone and y you as you said you have like a test trial session and then the work starts and you realize that the person is not opening up, doesn't wanna do deep work, all their requests are very superficial, have it happened and how did you approach that?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: well. That depends on what you're asking me right now. So I'll just answer and then you can develop

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Mm-hmm.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: the question if I'm not answering what you were asking. Usually people tend to develop as... I mean you learn to have coaching as well so maybe you don't want to go into deep work in the beginning. Maybe you're not used to doing deep work, maybe that's not helpful for you. That's also a skill as a coach to look at when this client is telling me about the topic. Is this a topic of deep work or is this a topic of creating an action plan? And to... Level my coaching with that. mean if somebody needs an action plan for how they're starting up their business and what the steps they will take for the next few months They're not helped by me doing deep work because they needed the action plan. So we'll do a debt an action plan then the deep work often grows on it because We explore the steps of creating that action plan, but not necessarily and then that's okay I don't see a specific value in coaching becoming deep work every time because sometimes that's not what you need. So for me, that's up to me and my skills as a coach to really, really listen for what is it that this client needs in this conversation today and to make sure that we get that. And if we can create learning along the way, that's a good thing. So that's also why a coaching session always starts with the coach asking, what is it that you want to take out of this session? It doesn't start with me as a coaching today. I think we're going to work on this. It starts with you saying today I need this. And then as a coach, I ask questions around what makes this important today? What is it that you need from it? What do you want to walk away with? why is this important right now, to kind of find the right level and help you see what in this often wide topic is it that is very important to figure out or find or explore today. And then as the session goes along I check in with with the client on how we are doing towards that goal and what learning is occurring as we work on it. There's no right or wrong or good or bad or better coaching because it's deep work. The good coaching is the coaching that brings to the client what they need right now in this specific session.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: I really I really loved what you said about the focus on the client and it's not about the deep work or an action plan for something very practical. It's about what the what the client needs. And this is where the coaches personality experience and ego that don't matter, they not in the conversation.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Mm. And it's very, important as a coach to hold your ego out of that. Because if you step into each coaching session wanting to create a miracle, then you are actually working from your own ego. What you want to create in a coaching session is a good space for the person who comes to you for coaching to create what they need in the moment. It's not about me at all.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Yeah. I love I love the word space that you said, creating space. And you talked about it before, right? That people who come into coaching often just need space to bounce

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Hmm.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: their thoughts, their ideas.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: To think out loud, to say something out loud without creating something. Like when you say things out loud in your workspace or with your family or with your friends, it means something specific to them. So it starts to create waves around you. But when you do it in the coaching space, you can just try it, listen to the echo. And if you like it, you can take it out into your real life. If you doesn't like the echo that comes in there, then you just... You know that and it doesn't affect me and I don't mind. Whether you use or not, whether you find it helpful or not, it's not about me. And it doesn't affect me and it doesn't create waves beyond what you choose to do.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Very very interesting. another thing I'm really curious about and you mentioned that you work mostly I guess with local people local clients but also international globally.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: do you feel the difference between people culture people live in and their approach to being coached? Is it easier?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: I don't think so, because culture and beliefs and how we perceive the world is always different. So for me, whether my clients are local or in another country, in another part of the world perhaps, in a completely different context, I never know what they think about the world. I never know what they think. So it's more like... Entrepreneurs may have certain traits that come from whatever part of the world they are. They have certain traits and things that are common to them. But they can also differ very much even in a local setting because it's different how you grew up, whether you've had a family who ran businesses or this is the first company you've ever been into in that, as an example. I try to keep myself as clear as I can from preconceptions about how things are for this person because they are from my area or from Sweden or from that country where I think I know something and always ask the client. Ask the client and get the cues from there because it's always different.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Hm.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: I think that's one part of why I think it's so amazing. We talk sometimes about children. I said I was a preschool teacher. We talk about children that they can often play from different cultures, different backgrounds. They can play together without understanding the language. It's because humans are humans all over the world. Then as we grow up, we add on layers of value systems, of beliefs of ourselves about experiences we made as like that and that always makes a unique pattern. So as a coach I approach that openly from wherever the client is because every person has a unique pattern and it's that unique pattern that interests me.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: This is a lovely way to put it. The unique pattern of every person. And I think that's a part of the coaching curiosity, right?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: you wanna help people but maybe even more so you wanna figure it out, you wanna ask questions.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah, I want to watch them figure it out. That's my way of playing. Yeah, I

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You wanna figure them out in a way. Yeah.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: want to see how things can become clearer for them, how they can see. And sometimes I don't even understand what we're talking about. I don't have to, because it's their thing. But it's interesting to see how I can support that journey or how I can... hold that room for them. But I think, I don't think it's much that I'm helping people because people are very capable. They are much more capable than they know themselves. So it's more for me like shining the light on what's going on and holding the space, holding the room, creating that setting where they can figure things out.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: So well said again and you know I'm curious coming from primary school teacher, right? Do you see those little kids in your clients sometimes? You

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah, sometimes I do. To me, it's not a big difference. People are people,

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: and the people I work with nowadays are like a meter taller. But they still have their needs. They still have their emotions. They still have their breakdowns and meltdowns and buildups and yeah. We're not that grown up, we're just faking it.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: I agree, completely agree. Every day I'm thinking, what am I doing?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: I think it's a very well

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Who put me in? Why do they think I can do this?

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: it's very comforting

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: And also, yeah, and also if we could keep more of that amazing drive that we had as children. mean, nobody told us to learn how to walk. Things worked out just fine lying down. Then we decided that maybe we could sit. How about it? And we fell and we fell and we fell. And then we decided it looks nice to stand up. What happens if I do that? and we probably learned to crawl, we got our way around, everything worked out just fine and yet most of us, I would say the absolute majority of people decides that at some point we want to try to stand and we want to try to walk. We just do it. if we could keep that curiosity around what happens if I do this too? What happens if I challenge myself a little bit and yes I will fall and yes I will bump my knees and I have somebody catch me sometimes and sometimes I will fall hard but it's fun so I'll keep trying.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: That's such an optimistic thing, yeah.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: What happens if we keep doing that?

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: you know there's two things that you mentioned that I thought I wish more people remember about that, right? That remember to keep this optimism and curiosity about

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Mm-hmm.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: the world and then remember that we all on the basic level, on the child level, we are all the same. Every person wants to be safe and have food and have a nice clean place to live and the kids to be healthy and safe. Like there are differences between people. Yeah, but that's all above that.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Yeah. Then we start adding on things and that's the way we build our lives. And I think if people really knew how much power they have in building their own lives, if we could really, and I'm one of that because we tend to build things around us that then creates kind of cages where we think that we need to stay within the limits. But I'm thinking if we could move from that tiny little newborn baby to even the school pupil sitting there reading and writing and walking and jumping and doing all kinds of stuff. If we can do that in like in seven years, what could we do if we didn't think there were limits? If we didn't build

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Mm.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: those cages around ourselves?

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: That's so deep and I think I will be thinking about that for the rest of the day, you know.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: you

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: And about the cages I built for myself. that's a very interesting interesting topic, but I don't think that's for today. you know, I I no no.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: No, we're not going into a coaching session here.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: I I wanted to tell you that I feel a lot of kindness from you and I would say you probably was a very good teacher for the primary school and It's very nice and this conversation. And also we met at the ICF Converge Summit in Paris and on the brain date and it was first first interaction I had with any people at the ICF Converge Summit and it was so lovely. And I think your kindness and curiosity and openness made made the rest of the conference for me also very Easy and smooth.

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Well, thank you. I'm glad to hear that. I think there's a lot to win from treating each other with kindness. And I am curious and I am interested in other people. I had a very nice brain date and a nice conversation there and I'm glad you found it rewarding for you too.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: Thank you. Thank you, Lena. And I think we're ready to get this conversation to wrap wrap it up. So I wanna ask you the final question. what is your one favorite thing about culture?

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: My favorite thing. It's difficult to... to put that in a small package, kind of. But I think my favourite thing about coaching is that it builds on curiosity and the belief that we are all capable, we are all able to learn and to make changes and to reach out for things and actually get there. And we're allowed to dream. We're allowed to think big. That's what the coaching space is about. But we're also allowed to say, no, thank you. I don't want that. And go another way. So it's not about pushing people, about me pushing them. It's about having people open up, see the big picture, and choose their way within that. Because what is success is very different for different people and there's room for that within coaching to make those choices.

Olga Kuvshinova Shahzeidi: you thank you so much Lena that was the coaching method podcast and see you next time

Lena Gustafsson, Guldkanten: Thank you.