BigTeamIU: Time 44 41 a touchdown wins it snap back to Hilinski drops back has time passes left caught made at the catchment of the 20 yard line more over the 10 runs for the win dives for the pylon touchdown Washington State he's celebrating like he was over the goal line it's a Welcome United! So we have a great episode for you today. I'm here from the Hallowed Hall, Assembly Hall, to give you a sneak preview of some of highlights of the great things coming this episode. Enjoy!

Nina Winsick: Stop!

Maria D'Ugo: Hi everyone and welcome back to United with Big Team at Indiana University. This is our podcast on student athlete mental health. I'm very excited to be here with you today. I'm your host, Maria Dugo, a third year PhD student in the counseling psychology program here at IU with a concentration in sport and performance psychology. And very thrilled about today's episode as I have the pleasure of speaking with one of the most impactful and respected voices in the sports psychology field, Dr. Mark Aoyagi. Mark's leadership, his commitment to social justice, and his emphasis on culturally responsive practice have significantly influenced the field and development of countless emerging practitioners, myself included. And Mark and I actually go way back to 2019. He has been an incredibly influential professor, supervisor, and mentor to me, and his guidance has truly been foundational in my own professional identity. So I'm very grateful to bring his voice to our listeners today. With that being said, welcome Mark.

Mark Aoyagi: Thanks, Maria. It's great to see you. Appreciate the kind words and excited for the conversation.

Maria D'Ugo: Likewise, and ⁓ today we're gonna be exploring culture and identity in sport, working with diverse teams and culturally responsive approaches for coaches and sports psychology providers. To get us started, we have a very IU way of introducing our guests. So Mark, I'm gonna play a clip for you of our IU head coach and ⁓ national champions, Kurt Signetti. so that is our infamous ⁓ Signetti ⁓ with that being said, Mark, if I were to Google you, what would come up about who you are?

Mark Aoyagi: That's a great question. I wish I knew the answer. I suppose the first challenge would be figuring out how to spell my name. But assuming you got to the right person, I think probably my affiliation with the University of Denver, ⁓ been there, I believe this is my, it's either my 19th or 20th year. So, long time affiliation there and I think they probably ⁓ have messed with the algorithm to make sure that that is the first hit that comes up. Outside of that, I have, Gosh, I mean, I think the only things that would come up on Google would be my professional identity. So I suppose that would be, like I said, home base at the University of Denver teaching in the master's program there for the past close to 20 years. And then I have a practice of sports psychology outside of that called sport performance excellence consultants that I do with some of my colleagues at the University of Denver. We're fortunate to be not only colleagues, but great friends and business partners as well. Archer Potschardowski, Jamie Shapiro, Bree Jones Copeland, ⁓ and then some of our other faculty as well, past and current, Jess Bartley, Mel Strenow, some other folks. So really fun practice to be part of. ⁓ yeah, I think those would be the things that would be most likely to come up.

Maria D'Ugo: What a powerhouse of a team. I appreciate you sharing that. And I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how you got into the field. I know you've shared a little bit about where you've been. Tell us what brought you there.

Mark Aoyagi: Yes, ⁓ you know, sports psychology was never part of the plan because I didn't know it existed. Like many in my generation, it was not really a known thing, particularly when I was competing. So I was an athlete myself. I identified myself that way. I don't know if that means that I was any good at anything, but it was certainly the most significant part of my identity growing up. I would have said that with pride back then. I say it a little bit hesitantly now, given the life journey that I've been on and what I know about some of these things now. But it was certainly the strongest identity that I had, perhaps the only identity I had for the majority of my formative years, really. And then I guess how I got to sports psychology was ended up, I grew up in Utah and went to undergrad at University of Utah, played rugby there. you know, sort of had this idea. I had dislocated my elbow, I think in eighth grade, if I remember correctly, it's a long time ago now. ⁓ and, had to have surgery on it. And so met an orthopedic surgeon that way. And. You know, that kind of seemed like a neat job where I could stay affiliated and around sports and athletes, which at the time again was important to me. And so that was kind of loosely, the plan was to go to med school and maybe be an orthopedic surgeon. And then while I was at the university of Utah, one of the preeminent sports psychologists at the time, Dr. Keith Henschen just happened to be there and heard his class was fun to take. He's a, he's a very entertaining. person and personality and just really ended up gravitating towards the sports psychology from there. So it was definitely never planned, but I think ended up being the right choice for me.

Maria D'Ugo: Absolutely. I'm curious, you mentioned that sport has been such a large part of your identity, being an athlete has. How has that part of you shifted over time, being in the sports psychology field, or has it shifted? If you could say more about that.

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I think there's a few significant moments in there. I know we're going to talk a lot about cultural pieces, but that becomes really why sport was such a place of sort of development and really exploring who I was and how I navigated the world. I'll maybe save the longer version for assuming that we're going to go there in the conversation, but just the short version for now is that. My parents were both immigrants from two different countries. My dad is from Japan originally and my mom is from England. And they had both immigrated to the U.S. I was born in the U.S. but in ⁓ a very multicultural household. And the way that I said it, the way that I say it now, I didn't have really words for this when I was growing up, but the way that I say it now is it felt like when I was growing up, everybody else sort of had the playbook and I didn't. I was just sort of figuring it out as I went along. And I think that's where sport became so significant is it felt like I also have an older brother and sort of followed him on the sport journey. But I think for both of us, sport felt like the place where we knew the rules and we felt like we fit in and we felt like we were judged based on what we could do as opposed to who we were. And I think that felt both ⁓ comforting and reassuring. And ⁓ yeah, I think it was just a place where, like I said, we sort of found ourselves. as I got older, so during my master's program, I mentioned that I played rugby in undergrad. then during my master's program was the first time that I was really not playing sport competitively and, ⁓ came to realize that there's a lot more to life than just sport. Hey, who knew? and, kind of went through this. I mean, this was not all as quick as I'm making it sound, but went through this gradual process of going from sport was my whole life. to eventually kind of this 180 of like, sports way overdone. Why did I waste so much time doing that? I'm discovering all these other neat aspects of life and parts of my identity that I hadn't even known were there, let alone that I wanted to explore more or develop more. And so then, you know, I was in my master's program for sports psychology. And so pretty quickly my thinking was like, well, what am I doing? You know, if I feel this way now about sport and its place in my life, what am I still doing in sports psychology? And then, again, a lot longer time elapsed than I'm indicating in this story, but had another significant moment where one of my formative sports psychology mentors, Dr. Rick McGuire, he shared sort of a decision point in his life where he was either going to go into the clergy as a religious leader or into sport as a coach. And ultimately what he decided was that he could reach more people and influence more people through the role of coach than he could through the role of being a religious figure for amongst other reasons, because a lot of people are drawn to sport where, you know, increasingly people are not necessarily turning to religion for guidance and those types of things. ⁓ Well, people still turn to religion for guidance, but just the number of people that are moving in that direction seems to be falling. So. ⁓ you know, I kind of reflected on that and realized that that yeah, even though I wasn't as invested in sport as a ⁓ call it a an environment, you know that I was invested in being around as much as I was previously, I still recognize that sport was probably the environment where I could have the biggest impact and ⁓ building off of that, that the people from sport get overrepresented in positions of power in society. So whether it's formal positions, you know, like a congressperson or a CEO of a company, or whether it's informal positions as leaders in their communities and so forth, people with sport backgrounds are overrepresented in all of those positions. And so again, had this realization that through sport and through the people of sport could have an impact on how people. And so again, had this realization that ⁓ through sport and through the people of sport ⁓ could have an impact ⁓ on ⁓ how people. ⁓ live their lives and ultimately use the psychological skills and tools that I was hoping to impart to live more healthy, fulfilled, meaningful lives. live their lives and ultimately use the psychological skills and tools that I was hoping to impart to live more healthy, fulfilled, meaningful lives.

Maria D'Ugo: What a, I mean, what an incredible journey you've been on. And I can hear how impactful sport has been in your life. And it's shown up in different ways. Being that you've been in, in the space as an athlete and as a provider and everything in between. And I'm curious, you've alluded to this a little bit, but what experiences through your time or relationships have been most influential in shaping your identity? as a provider or how sport has shifted for you in that way.

Mark Aoyagi: Well, my identity as a provider certainly has been most influenced by my mentors and I've been very fortunate to have really significant and powerful mentors in my career. So I mentioned, you know, it all started with Dr. Keith Henschen for me ⁓ and then Dr. Rick McGuire, Dr. Robin Schofield. Dr. Gloria Balague, I'll stop saying doctors, they're all doctors. ⁓ Robin Schofield, Gloria Balague, Ken Raviza, and really for people that know the field of sports psychology, these are some of the formative members of the profession. You know, again, there was nothing special about me. was it was really just a really lucky set of circumstances that led me to Keith Henschen, first of all, and then Henschen and McGuire are really good friends. McGuire and Revis are really good friends. Gloria Balague is good friends with everybody. ⁓ And so it was it was really just, you know, kind of a timing and a situational life circumstance piece that, you know, I couldn't have planned and or predicted that really just allowed me to fall in with some. some of the most influential people in the field and just do everything I could to learn from them.

Maria D'Ugo: And based on what you shared, I'm curious what parts of your identity feel most central or influential to the work you're doing across your different roles.

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I mean, I suppose the most important part of my identity is the one that we really haven't touched on yet, which is me as a person. And the first and foremost most important role that I have is I'm a father. have two daughters that are 13 and 10 now. That might surprise you. you know, just yeah, exactly. ⁓ You know, seeing them grow up playing a part in their growing up and how they experience the world and, you know, the

Maria D'Ugo: Time flies.

Mark Aoyagi: the humans that they're becoming. That's far and away the most important role that I have and where I put the most ⁓ time and energy and effort into. ⁓ One of my other, really, peer mentor colleague ⁓ is Mike Gervais. For those that know Mike Gervais, he's a big name in sports psychology, but one of the questions that he likes to ask, and he asked me this one time, is he said, you trying to be the best or are you trying to be your best? And he was asking it sort of in reference to the professional aspect of myself. And I said, the reality is in my professional life, I'm trying to be good enough. And it's really in my personal life that I'm trying to be my best in terms of being a father and, you know, just a values based individual that's trying to become the best version of myself. And, you know, My professional identity certainly fits into that, but I would never trade professional success for being able to be present in my daughter's life. So that's, again, where I feel like I have the most importance and hopefully the most impact. One of them's 13 now, so I know the research that says that her friends are more impactful than I am anymore.

Maria D'Ugo: Well, I'm sure you are too. ⁓ That makes me curious about something that you said ⁓ with your professional identity and your identity as a father and the values that you hold. I'm curious, how have you, or what's been helpful in you finding your authentic self in the professional space and kind of those intersections between your identities?

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, it's a great question. One of the things I believe I heard this in one of my classes in my doc program. And it was just a little thing in some sort of cultural identity or multicultural class, something along those lines. And it was a little section on biracial individuals. And the takeaway for me was that people from biracial backgrounds tended to have more flexible thinking because they experience that there's not one way of doing things. A lot of times there's racial, cultural, ethnic influences from each parent or for me it was parents from two different cultures and being raised in a third culture. And so just constantly sort of being exposed to this idea, not explicitly, but just implicitly realizing that like, there's one way of doing this, call it. Japanese way. There's another way of doing this. Call it the British way. There's a third way of doing this. Call it the American way. And I realized at some point, know, again, this is all more clear in retrospect than it was living through it. But in retrospect, realized that ⁓ I think to the extent that I might have a superpower, it would be the understanding that there's not one way of doing things. And as you know, one of the one of the skills that I emphasize is mental flexibility. And I think, you know, again, through luck and circumstance was just sort of really born into a situation where ⁓ flexibility was going to be there, whether I wanted it to be or not, because again, it was this constant milieu of here's one way of doing things, here's another way. I sort of, I guess, took the luxury or the privilege of saying, okay, if there's not a right way of doing things, then I can sort of pick however works for me and go from there. And I think that level of flexibility ⁓ has really become a major part of my identity and allowed me to really move smoothly between different aspects of my identity. So. ⁓ You know, when I think about my professional identity, one of the things that I really appreciate about it is the ability to do a lot of different things. So kind of having academia as a home base through that role, I get to do teaching, mentoring, supervising, advising, things of that nature. I love each of those roles. And then I also have this practice that sits alongside my academic career, where again, I get to do I get to do mental health work. get to consult with individuals. I get to consult with teams. I get to consult with leadership groups. I do primarily that in sport, but also work with musicians and stage performers of different kinds and business people. So ⁓ and that's really what I enjoy. I I really enjoy doing a lot of different things and having that flexibility to emphasize different aspects of my personality and my identity. And ⁓ yeah, I think that's the way that I show up best in the world.

Maria D'Ugo: What a powerful perspective, that mental flexibility. And I can see how impactful it's been through your experience. I'm curious how that shows up in the work that you do as far as supporting students and athletes and coaches and performers to ⁓ sort of get to that point of mental flexibility where you notice there's that inflexible nature, perhaps.

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I think that ⁓ you've probably heard my shtick on this before, but you know, if we look at different ⁓ markers of fitness, you know, we have strength, we have flexibility, we have endurance, we have resilience. And you know, you could put some other ones on there, but as four primary markers. But then we have these also four domains of our lives that we can apply those markers to physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. And As we know in at least many sport and performance environments, the strength piece gets emphasized that you're going to develop muscular strength, you're going to develop emotional strength and things like that. But what we also know is if we look in the physical domain, that if you are over indexed on muscular strength and under indexed on muscular or skeletal flexibility, you're kind of setting yourself up for an injury. And that's the same thing that we see in the psychological and the emotional domain. That if you are over indexed on strength in those categories, mental strength, emotional strength, and under indexed on flexibility, you're setting yourself up for the equivalent of an injury in those areas as well. So I think that's kind of the, ⁓ I guess the educational piece I would offer to people to kind of entice them into thinking, ⁓ you maybe there's a role for flexibility here. And then the other hurdle is that if people acknowledge that mental flexibility and emotional flexibility is something that they think they would benefit from, most of them still think that it's not necessarily a trainable skill. It's sort of you have it or you don't. the same is true for mental and emotional strength as well. I mean, unfortunately, most of our sports systems are set up to sort of weed out people that might inherently or have, you know, somehow developed mental strength themselves. But we don't actually teach the skill itself. It's more selected for rather than taught. And you might ask, well, what's the problem with that? Well, the problem is there's tons of people that had the potential to develop mental strength and mental flexibility that were just cut or left off of a team or were never in a situation where they understood that that was a skill that could be developed. And that's not a fault of theirs. That's the fault of the systems that they experienced sport and know, broader life within. So, ⁓ so I would argue that we've lost a lot of ⁓ a lot of talent and a lot of potential, which aren't two words that I particularly care for. But ⁓ the reality is we've lost a lot of opportunities to grow and expand our capacities, something that I'm a lot more interested in because we haven't included these people that for whatever reason didn't sort of pass through the physical or the mental or the emotional strength barriers that that sport put in front of them. And if you know if we had recognized and hopefully we are recognized that these are skills now and we're seeing greater movements to to bring that level of training and development to all kids earlier on in the pipeline rather than just waiting until they've you know gone through this narrowing of the pipeline and self-selected in or out based on that. ⁓ Now we're seeing a lot more growth and development in in sport and in different domains of life because more people are getting through that choke point. ⁓ and are being given the tools and the resources to develop those skills rather than just be selected for.

Maria D'Ugo: Absolutely, we're seeing some of those barriers being broken down in the system.

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I mean, we all wish that it was happening quicker, but thankfully there has been growth in that area, yeah.

Maria D'Ugo: Absolutely. And that makes me think ⁓ about zooming out for a moment, thinking about the big picture of your work. I'm curious, based on the many roles and long standing focus on multicultural psychology, diversity, equity, inclusion, how do you see culture and identity showing up in sport for athletes, coaches, providers, anywhere you'd like to take that?

Mark Aoyagi: Well, I think you could hear based on my own experience that I don't, again, I felt unique when I was going through that experience, but I think the reality is everybody feels what I said to different degrees. for many people like myself, sport becomes the refuge, the place where they feel more safe to explore different elements of their identity. So sport sort of becomes this bi-directional, it's both where you're, ⁓ understanding and developing your identity, but it's also an identity unto itself. And again, I'm not encouraging that based on what we know now. think grounding your identity in elements of what you do as opposed to who you are or why you do what you do. We know that that can become a dangerous road to go down. And so, you know, one of the things that I encourage people that I work with is to root their values in who they are as a person and And so, you know, one of the things that I encourage people that I work with is to root their values in ⁓ who they as a person and ⁓ how they want to show up in the world as opposed to what they do, how well they do it, who they do it with, where they do it. ⁓ You know, these become a lot of our default identities, but they all have a downside, a dark side to them. how they want to show up in the world as opposed to what they do, how well they do it, who they do it with, where they do it. ⁓ You know, these become a lot of our default identities, but they all have a downside, a dark side to them. So I think that's sort of the kind of the first layer of your question of how identity shows up in sport. And then, you know, I think there's a lot of deeper layers in terms of what identities are welcomed, what identities are celebrated, what identities are denigrated, what identities are tried to be eliminated, what identities do people feel like they can come forward with, what identities do people feel like they need to suppress or repress? ⁓ You know, I think all of those are really, really deep questions that we can explore, what identities are welcomed, what identities are celebrated, what identities are denigrated, what identities are tried to be eliminated, what identities do people feel like they can come forward with, what identities do people feel like they need to suppress or repress? ⁓ You know, I think all of those are really, really deep questions that we can explore, but ⁓ yeah, I'll stop there and see which direction you wanna go in.

Maria D'Ugo: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that and emphasizing that identity or ⁓ athletic ⁓ identity can kind of be, is often very central, especially given that it's a safe space for a lot of athletes, particularly those of marginalized backgrounds. And so I'm curious, based on your experience or what you've seen, what's been helpful in expanding someone's exploration of who they are outside of sport as far as their identity goes.

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, ⁓ well, and let me let me offer. If I may, my perspective on on something you said there that and I think I said it too, so I'm probably correcting myself as well. That sport is a safe place to to explore different elements of your identity, particularly for minoritized individuals. I think what I probably meant to say in how I would characterize it is sport is a socially acceptable place to explore your identity. It's not necessarily a safe place for. Certainly everybody and certainly people with different identities that, as I said, are not celebrated or accepted in those environments. So ⁓ just wanted to throw that out there. But in terms of I think your question was about how to help people access different parts of their identity outside of sport. Is that right? Yeah, you know, I think part of that is going to be determined within the sport environment. Part of that is going to be determined by what's the culture here.

Maria D'Ugo: Yes.

Mark Aoyagi: You know, there are, you know, I've been in locker rooms and in teams and buildings where if you were talking about things other than the sport, it was viewed as a lack of commitment, you know, that you weren't all in. And so that, you know, the idea was you had this like singular maniacal focus on the one thing that you were quote unquote there to do. I think that mentality thankfully is, is dissipating a little bit. It's still there to a certain degree, but I think there's a lot more. open-mindedness towards recognizing that sport is one part of most people's lives. It's not the totality of it. ⁓ So I think, I think, you know, the first characteristic to be aware of is how, how inviting is the environment and, how is the environment going to respond if you do explore elements of your identity, if you start to bring that out. Now, in terms of ⁓ how to actually go about that, I think One of the things that I always emphasize and I always use this lens of performance and the historical, that monomaniacal focus on we need to get this done, that used to be the belief of what would lead to higher performance. And whether or not that was ever true, I never saw research to support it, but certainly what we know about ⁓ modern people and modern conditions is that that's not the way to bring about ⁓ elite performance. the way to bring about elite performance is to understand who you are as a person and then bring all of that forth through your performance. And so it's not about suppressing different parts of your identity or repressing different parts of who you are to have this maniacal focus on one thing. It's about contextualizing the one thing that you do within all the other elements of your life. the example I give here to make it a little bit more concrete and sort of get it out of the intellectual space a little bit is you know if you're standing over a putt for a million dollars and your mindset and your lived experience is if I make this putt I'm successful and I'm somebody and I'm worthy and if I miss this putt I'm nobody and I'm unsuccessful and I'm unworthy that's pretty tough to pretty tough putt to make right whereas if you can stand over the putt and say

Maria D'Ugo: Definitely.

Mark Aoyagi: Hey, I've invested a lot in this putt. It's really important to me that I do my best to try and put this ball in the hole. And at the same time, at the end of the day, the important people in my life are still gonna love me, aren't gonna think any differently if it goes in or if it doesn't. And ⁓ by the way, I'm one of those most important people in my life and I'm not gonna think any differently about me if it goes in or if it doesn't. Now, in the old school mentality, that might sound like I'm not invested enough. But if we just look at that objectively, which mindset is going to put you in the better position to make that putt? It's the most important thing in the world and I have to make it or, you know, it's a cool thing. I've invested a lot in this. I sure hope it goes this way, but if it doesn't, you know, I'll still wake up the next morning and still be me and people will still love me and I'll still love me and all that. I'm going to say that that second one is going to put me in a lot better position to make the putt. And that, you know, that's kind of the mentality and the mindset that we're trying to teach people to have is to recognize that.

Maria D'Ugo: for sure.

Mark Aoyagi: ⁓ Again, I think I said it earlier, but sport is what you do. It's not who you are. And if you can keep that perspective in mind, then you're lot more likely to get the outcomes that you want in sport ⁓ and to keep perspective, whether you get them or not.

Maria D'Ugo: And I wonder if what you shared is related to that mental flexibility at all to the metaphor that you shared about the putt.

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I mean, you know, you know me well enough that it, think it's sort of infused in everything that I, that I say and do, but a hundred percent, you know, to have the flexibility to say this putts really important. And there's lots of other things that are really important as well. That's the flexibility, right? The, the rigidity, what, what I would say masquerades as strength is the idea of like, this putt is the most challenging thing on earth and I'm going to overcome all the odds and make this putt. You know, I mean that, that might sound like an attractive mindset to certain people. But again, if you contrast it with the alternative of trying to keep things in perspective and still acknowledging, yeah, this is important. And I definitely, you know, I'm going to do everything in my power to make it go right. And, you know, I'll live with whatever the consequences are, good, bad, or ugly. ⁓ I think most people are going to recognize that that's the mindset that's actually going to more often than not put them in position to have success. Nothing's going to guarantee success. That's why we all like sports so much is the outcome's never known. But it's about playing the odds. And I would lay my money down on the person that could be more flexible around the idea of there's more to life than making this putt than the one that thinks that there's everything in life is all about making this putt.

Maria D'Ugo: Yeah, that all or nothing thinking. That makes me think you mentioned teams earlier and I'm curious, how do you feel that cultural identities shape the way teams function or communicate or what have you seen from your experiences there?

Mark Aoyagi: Well, what you explained is actually how I think about culture. The way that I kind of think about and define culture is it's the signals in the environment that point the people in that environment to what the quote unquote right choice is in that environment. So that includes language, that includes communication, that includes how we interact with one another. And so again, like I said, you know, on the interpersonal level, on the social level, there's gonna be cues in the environment that say, hey, is it cool to talk about family here or does it need to be all business here? Is it cool to talk about other interests here or is that going to be taken as I'm not invested enough in the thing that I'm doing here? So, so all those cues become part of the culture that say, yeah, that's welcome here. That's invited here. That's encouraged here or no, take that somewhere else. Um, the example that I always give, cause I think again, it's sort of the easiest to understand is the cafeteria. You know, when you walk into the cafeteria, if upfront is chips and candy bars and soda pop, then you know, there's going to be pretty strong signals in the environment of like, eat whatever you want here. Whereas if you walk into the cafeteria and up front is, you know, the proteins and the salads and the, you know, the healthy whole foods and, know, maybe back in the corner, there's some chips and candy bars. Maybe there's not any at all. That's also going to send a signal. So to me, that's what culture is all about is all the signals that the environment sends environment sends that tell people in that environment, how do we act around here? What are the choices that we make around?

Maria D'Ugo: And that makes me wonder about environments or teams where maybe you've seen more of that rigid culture, more of that all or nothing thinking, and you recognize the harm that it's causing. What's been helpful in trying to shift that culture?

Mark Aoyagi: Well, you you used a really key word for me, no surprise, since I appreciate flexibility, but the opposite of flexibility would be rigidity. And I think what, again, we're slowly coming to recognize is that if we're really rigid around culture, that that means it's gonna be really narrow people that fit into that culture. And ⁓ by the way, that's mostly, if not exclusively, depending on how rigid it is, gonna be people that look like us. And think ⁓ what, again, we're slowly coming to recognize is that if we're really rigid around culture, ⁓ that that means it's gonna really ⁓ narrow that fit into that culture. ⁓ And by the way, that's mostly, if not exclusively, on how rigid it is, ⁓ gonna people that look like us. ⁓ that think like us, that have had the same life experiences as us. And now, you know, again, you might be saying, what's the problem with that? that think like us, that have had the same life experiences as us. And now, you know, again, you might be saying, what's the problem with that? But, you know, if you just, again, if you just think about a talent pool, you know, if there's less diversity in that pool, it's less likely that you're going to hit on, you know, what's going to be needed to meet the moment, whatever the moment is in whatever sport or performance context you're in. Whereas if you had a broader ⁓ range of diversity within that pool. then you're more likely to be adaptable and to ⁓ be able to make the adjustments. I work in professional baseball now and all they talk about is adaptability and adjustments. But that's the reality of any performance environment is by definition, the more demanding and challenging the environment is, the more we're going to have to adapt and adjust to meet the demands of the situation as they unfold. And so the more... ⁓ flexibility we have in our environment and the more diversity we have in the world views, the life experiences, the performance experiences of the people and environment, the more likely we are to come up with the, you know, again, quote unquote, the right answers or the right adjustments to make given the evolving circumstances of high performance.

Maria D'Ugo: Right, absolutely. And I'm curious when or what happens when identity differences are acknowledged versus overlooked in team settings. What have you seen?

Mark Aoyagi: I suppose it's always easier to go to what goes wrong first. So I think when they're overlooked, then people ⁓ don't feel comfortable expressing their full selves, which means that even if you have people in your environment that might have different worldviews and diverse experiences that might provide better solutions to the challenges and obstacles that you're facing in the present moment, they're not going to feel comfortable bringing those things forward. They're going to stay, you know, even even if I think ⁓ that A is the right way to do things based on my lived experience. If I know that the aspect of my lived experience that allowed me to get to solution A isn't welcome in that environment, I'm going to say B because I know that that will keep me safe and that will keep my job more secure relatively ⁓ than if I say A. So, and again, having worked in professional sport for the last 15 or so years, this happens. all the time. If you look at draft selection, there are lots of individuals and lots of teams that will make the safe choice, even when they know it's not the right choice. But the safe choice will allow, you know, the GM, the president, whoever the people in power are, or the people in charge of making that pick the safe choice, even if it if if the safe choice does not work out, they won't lose their jobs. If they take the risky choice that they think is the right choice, and it doesn't go right. they lose their jobs. So we see this bias towards conservatism, rigidity, however you want to label that, all the time in professional sport, and to the great detriment of a lot of the teams and individuals involved. Because, you know, if you are not making a stand based on your values, what are you doing, right? You're, ⁓ I don't mean to be too strong in my language here, but like, You're putting yourself forward as a fraud. I'm not saying they're a fraud through and through, but you're putting yourself forward as a fraud and success or failure, either one. What does it mean if you're not, if you're not there representing who you are as a person, if you're successful based on things that are not true elements of yourself, are you really successful? That's an open question. Now to take the other side of it, where, where have I seen when it's gone well and diverse opinions have been

Maria D'Ugo: Thank

Mark Aoyagi: invited and respected. I think you see a lot more dynamic thinking. I think you see people that are in organizations that are a lot ⁓ a lot more adaptable and adjustable to when things go wrong. And again, when you're when you're working at an elite level of performance, there's always going to be unexpected obstacles. And ⁓ by the way, everybody else is, you know, tapping into the same competitive advantages that you are. And so the more that you are similar, the less likely you are to find those areas where you might have a day or a week or a month or a season of a competitive advantage before other people figure out what you're doing. So I think the more that, again, we welcome people to bring forward different worldviews, different perspectives, different life experiences, the more likely we are to stumble upon, I mean, that's usually how it happens, right? The biggest competitive advantage is usually are not planned for. like I described in my life, you know, there things that just the circumstances align and you sort of have the right resources to meet that moment. And again, the more that you're willing to acknowledge and invite and welcome forward the different resources in your organization, the more likely you to stumble upon the one that's going to work given the current circumstances.

Maria D'Ugo: Right, absolutely. And that makes me wonder in what you've seen or what you've done yourself, ⁓ how can coaches, practitioners, ⁓ administrators facilitate that type of environment where ⁓ different worldviews are appreciated and ⁓ and sort of embraced within a team, group dynamics. How can people in positions of power foster that?

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I mean, I think the best advice that I can give and again, my mind always goes to. What is what do we know about performance excellence? What do we know about the causes and conditions of ⁓ expert elite excellent performance? And you know, if we go into the team dynamics literature, one of the things we know about what makes teams successful is when every person in the locker room or the clubhouse or whatever the situation is, every person in that team. knows every other person on that team's role and appreciates and respects that role. So there's, ⁓ if we want to use the term diversity, right? We know that there are lots of different roles and needs to be fulfilled for a team to come together and be successful. When everybody knows everybody else's role and respects and appreciates that role, that's when teams are the most successful. And I would say the same thing about individual identities. When everybody in that locker room, and we're talking, when I say everybody on a team, I'm not just talking about the players. I'm talking about coaches, I'm talking about staff, I'm talking about support staff, everybody. When everybody on that team knows everybody else's identity and understands and appreciates everybody else's identity, then we have the best chance to have the most success as a team.

Maria D'Ugo: It's that interpersonal level of understanding and appreciation and connection that sounds really powerful there too.

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, we're seeing this more and more. I quoted Mike Gervais earlier. He has a great way of of saying things that are not as ⁓ long winded as what you're hearing from me today. ⁓ But one of the things that he's identified is that, you know, over the years, historically, we've used what's called an extraction model of performance where, you know, the leadership, whether it's CEOs or coaches or presidents or whoever it is, they try and extract ⁓ all of the usable skills and knowledge from their employees or team members or athletes or whatever it is. They try and extract that from them and kind of just leave these hollow husks of people to pick up the pieces of their lives when that extraction process is done. And what modern leadership recognizes now is that that model doesn't work. Like you might be able to squeeze everything you can out of a person, but you're never gonna. bring forth everything that that person has to offer. Because if you're trying to extract it, that means that they're trying to hold onto it, right? And not have it be taken from them. And so the answer to that, that modern leaderships are recognizing now is what's called an unlock philosophy. So rather than extract what we can from an individual, we're collaborating. So leadership and the person, coach and athlete, are collaborating. to figure out, how can we unlock the best of what's in me? And now, rather than the coach trying to extract that from them and the athletes say, no, that's not how I wanna do it, this is how I wanna do it, we're working together to say, what's the vision for the best way that we can make this work? And again, not just as an individual, but in the context of the team as well. And so I think really adopting this unlock mentality of how can we collaborate to bring forth the best rather than. me from on high trying to pull out of you what I identify as useful or worthy.

Maria D'Ugo: Yeah, wow, that sounds really powerful. It sounds like it mitigates the power dynamics in many ways as well. Is that true?

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I think it does. ⁓ It certainly puts the power in the hands of, like I said, a collaborative process that's about bringing forth the best in everybody. No, think people hearing that for the first time or wondering about this for the first time might think, well, how am going to do that? That's going to take forever. I can't get to know all my people. I can't figure out how to sit down and unlock each one of them. And the reality is, no doubt. there is a front loading process of this that's going to take some time. But I would put that up against how much time do you spend trying to extract from your people that which they don't want to give and you figuring out new ways to motivate them or how am I going to you know get them over this hurdle or whatever and all of that weight all of that responsibility all of that falls on the coach and the leader. Whereas in the unlock model now yes again there's some front loading here of getting to know your people, understanding them on a different level. But once you do that, now that flywheel is spinning and all those hurdles down the road are being worked on together, right? It's not, I need to figure out a new way to motivate this person. I need to up the ante and what I used to motivate them yesterday isn't working and no more pats on the butt, now it's kicks, know, or no more pats on the shoulder, now it's kicks in the butt and whatever. Now all of that goes away. Because the motivation is the same. It's about bringing out the best in the person and giving the best to the team. The athletes want to do that. They want to find what's best within them. And so now again, rather than you having to be the motivator and the extractor, now you're the facilitator and the unlocker and the collaborator. And all those hurdles are moved through together rather than, you know, this, as you said, this powerful position of and respond ⁓ position of responsibility of like, ⁓ I need to get the team through this hurdle or I need to push the athlete through this barrier. Now we're working together to figure out those things ⁓ collaboratively.

Maria D'Ugo: It sounds like it makes them stronger as individuals and as a collective team in that way too, through that collaboration.

Mark Aoyagi: Well, I mean, that's the synergy that we're looking for, Is that, you know, again, I'm sort of talking about this at the individual level for ease. But yeah, when you get it, when you get a team of individuals that are all pulling in that same direction and challenging one another to be the best version of themselves, it's powerful stuff.

Maria D'Ugo: Definitely. And as you're talking about the individual athlete's experience, I'm wondering, kind of ⁓ shifting a little bit more to mental health, how do you, based on what you've seen, how does a sense of belonging or lack of it within a team impact mental health? When we're talking about culture and identity and collaboration and group outgroup, things like that. based on what you've seen, how does a sense of belonging or of it within a team ⁓ impact mental health?

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I mean, I think anybody that's been in a circumstance where they don't feel like they can be their whole self in that environment, that is such a drain on energy. And, you know, it shows up in all different ways. It shows up through lack of sleep. It shows up through poor recovery. And ultimately, those things are going to have ⁓ have a, you know, a very impactful negative ⁓ impact on both physical health, health and mental health. So, you we'll see more injuries in people that have that experience. We'll see more sick days in people that have that experience. And then certainly we'll see more depression, more anxiety, more mental health issues and concerns, more substance abuse in people that are in that situation. So I don't know if that answers your question emphatically enough, but for sure, it's it is a And I don't use this word lightly, but it's a toxic culture when individuals feel like they cannot express the full range of their self within that environment.

Maria D'Ugo: Absolutely. And I'm curious about how coaches and practitioners can ensure to foster that sense of belonging or what they can do to facilitate that, not only with their athletes individually, but amongst the team as well.

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, you know, I think it's a lot easier and simpler than people think that it is. You know, it's not, you don't need to sit down and have a three hour conversation and, you know, ask about where they're from and their life story. And I mean, that hopefully, you know, elements of that will unfold over time. But, you know, on the day to day, it's simple questions, you know, how are you doing? You know, If we're talking about collegiate sport, how did you do on that test? I know that that was going to be important for you. How's your family doing? You know, I know that you had a family member that was sick. How are they doing? Do you have siblings? What are they up to? You know, just just little micro interactions that show that you care about more than just the athlete that you care about the human. ⁓ And not only that you care about the human, but that you're interested in all of the elements of their humanity. All the different elements of their identity, all the different aspects of their lived experience. Just showing an openness to that. again, even as a psychologist that has the luxury of having a one-on-one, hour-long ⁓ conversation with a person, you never get to know all elements of other people. If we're honest with ourselves, we don't even know all elements of ourselves. And so it's not about trying to have this playbook that gives you all the answers on everybody in your locker room. it's just opening the door to those conversations and just letting them know that you're interested in those different elements of their lives and their identities. That's all it takes. And some will actually never even disclose or follow up on that. You know, I have students that, you know, I don't know about their siblings and different elements of their lives, but what I hope is that every one of them knows that if they wanted to talk about those things, I would love to hear about And I think that's the dynamic that you're hoping to set up is just a situation where people feel welcome to talk about that. And based on individual differences and life experiences and so forth, people are gonna feel more or less comfortable sharing different aspects of themselves. And that's all fine. There's no need to pry. There's no need to press. It's just setting up a culture, setting up an environment and using your leadership and your voice to say, hey, it's all welcome here.

Maria D'Ugo: Yeah, and I'm confident that your students feel that too. ⁓ I know I always have. And I want to kind of round this out by asking, what do you hope that athletes understand about their own identities and performance at any performance level?

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, I think it's this understanding that... If and I use a term performance excellence very carefully ⁓ and very deliberately, which is to say that excellence for one person might mean performing their best in that environment. Excellence for another person might be, you know, more of how I describe my professional identity is where I want to be good enough, but it's not the most important thing that I'm doing here. And so, ⁓ you know, to me, performance excellence might be I want to find the way to exit this sport. in the best way for me in my life situation, family, whatever the case may be. So with that being said, I don't wanna make the assumption that everybody's value and everybody's desire is to be the best they can be at whatever they're trying to do. That being said, nothing I'm gonna say is incompatible with striving to be the best that you can be. ⁓ And so I think the first thing to recognize within that is... You don't need to be singularly maniacally focused on only that element of your identity to be the best. And in fact, as you've kind of heard me make the case for having ⁓ a more well-rounded developed, I don't like the year. I don't like the word balanced. There's no balance in elite performance, but there's a blend that is right for you and finding the right blend. I don't like the word balanced. There's no balance in elite performance, ⁓ but there's a blend that is right for you ⁓ and finding the right blend. of your identity, your roles, your life experiences for you is the best way to put yourself in position to experience the highest level of outcomes that you're capable of. of your identity, your roles, your life experiences for you is the best way to put yourself in position to experience the highest level of outcomes that you're capable of. Now, there's also seasons, right? We recognize that in every performance environment, there's also seasons. And so there's going to be seasons along your development and along your progression where if you want to be an elite performer, you're going to have to emphasize that part of your identity and that part of your life experience more than others. It doesn't mean that the others disappear. It just means that you're going to go through a season where you might be more heavily invested in, you know, your technical performance or your tactical performance or your strength performance or whatever. ⁓ But just as we know with, ⁓ let's take strength that for However much energy we invest in increasing our strength for that to work, we need to invest just as much energy, although that's a funny word in this context, in recovery. So we need to recover just as hard as we work in order to get the benefits of that work. And that's the same with these identities is that if and when we go through a necessary period of over investment in one particular identity, We need to follow that up with a season where we emphasize another part or a more blended part of our identity and make sure that we're being, ⁓ we're honoring that performance cycle of, you know, high intensity, high volume, followed by lower volume, lower intensity. And if we follow that cycle, we get the best out of ourselves. And it's the same with our identities that we're going to have to, ⁓ as I said, ⁓ over index on some parts of our identity through some seasons of our journey, but then we also need to bring forth the other aspects of our identity in different seasons.

Maria D'Ugo: I absolutely love that metaphor, viewing our ⁓ journey as different seasons and how we'll need to blend or maybe have a little bit more emphasis on certain aspects of who we are and our identity depending on which season we're in. And as a provider, what's been ⁓ helpful for you in finding your own blend? ⁓

Mark Aoyagi: Yeah, that's great question. ⁓ Again, as you know, Maria, the psychological philosophy that I've gravitated towards is really rooted in values. And I think, you know, that's something where, you know, call it, you know, this past few seasons of my life have really been emphasizing ⁓ first knowing and discovering what my values are, and then really making sure that So act is the philosophy that I use and they have this great phrase, is to, now I'm gonna screw up the phrase, ⁓ to pursue your values vigorously, but hold them lightly. And ⁓ that's something that I've really tried to do is first have the awareness and the understanding of what my values are and how I wanna show up in the world, go really hard after that, but also be. loose and what they mean by that loose holding it loosely is the flexibility, right? To understand that what we know all the time is going to happen in life and particularly in high performance endeavors is values are going to come in conflict and we can beat ourselves over that, beat ourselves up over that and be rigid about that and try and be the best at everything and all those things that we know might feel good in the short run, but aren't sustainable in the long run. ⁓ And that's where I try and bring forth the holding it loosely and recognizing that, yeah, you know, in this, you know, in this period of my life or this season of my life, maybe I'm not going to show up in this aspect of my life exactly the best way that I can. I'm going to do the best that I can under the circumstances, but know that that's not going to be an absolute best. Having that type of flexibility and lightness in the way that I hold things while at the same time, again, pursuing them vigorously, that's really helped me to... to go easier on myself. Self-compassion has been a great addition to the toolkit as well. And one of the elements of self-compassion that I love, this is from Kristin Neff's work, is the idea of shared common humanity. That we're all in this together, we're all experiencing the same stuff. And having that level of comfort of, there's nothing special or unique about this challenge or this threat or this obstacle that I'm facing. ⁓ Everybody goes through something similar and you know that again, I love her phrasing of that shared common humanity just helps me to you know, take a step back and be able to say, okay, you know, this is who I am. This is how I want to show up here and you know, whatever whatever percentage of me I can give to this right now, I'm going to give and if that's less than 100%, I'm going to be kind and gentle with myself and recognize that you know, if I've got 80 % to give, I'm going to give all that 80 % and that's all I can do.

Maria D'Ugo: I absolutely love that and that self-compassion is so critical and very hard to get to a lot of the times and I really appreciate you sharing your perspectives and sharing a bit about your journey here. I've always learned so much from you and I can't thank you enough for your insight, your experience and sharing some of who you are and ⁓ your heart. with us today. And so I just want you to know this conversation has been deeply meaningful for me personally, and I know that it will be for our listeners as well. And it's been such an honor to speak with you today, Mark. Thank you so much for being here.

Mark Aoyagi: Well, I greatly appreciate that, Maria, and you know, really love the questions and the conversation and thank you for all the kind words that you've said. And ⁓ as you know, you're you're out there becoming the best version of yourself. And as you've heard me say a million times before that, you know, my knowledge of you is that you're going to be doing this ⁓ in your own way and expressing yourself in the same full way that we've been talking about here. And you're going to have. ⁓ such an impact on the individuals that you work with and on the profession. So just excited to see where the journey takes you and all the support and resources that you're able to offer to others.

Maria D'Ugo: Thank you Mark, trying to find my own blend, as you'd say. Thank you, I really appreciate it.

Mark Aoyagi: That's right. All right, thanks Maria.