speaker-0: What is it really? What do you really do? Eighty percent done is better than one hundred percent of nothing. If you've got a choice between clear and clever, just choose clear all the time. Forget the clever.

speaker-1: What is the outcome that you really deliver?

speaker-0: It's not about you. It's about the people you serve.

speaker-1: Today's guest is Ange Dove. Ange helps experienced professionals get clear on the value that they bring, communicate it simply, and become more comfortable being seen and putting themselves out there. In our conversation, we discuss why experts resist promoting themselves, how perfectionism and procrastination can keep getting in the way and keep your good work hidden, why clear always beats clever, and how AI is changing the way people think about their skills and the future of work. If you get value from this conversation, be sure to subscribe and share it with a friend. And now please enjoy my conversation with Ange Dove. Ange, thank you so much for being here.

speaker-0: You're welcome. Thanks for having me, Ian. It's great to be here.

speaker-1: So Ange, a lot of experts have, you know, experience and have delivered strong results for their clients, but people still don't fully understand what they do or why it matters, right? This is something that you lived through yourself for years. So why do experts with real experience and results still get overlooked?

speaker-0: A lot of it could be that they just are reticent to promote themselves. And that could be like here it's I'm in Singapore. So definitely a Singapore it's a cultural thing. But they don't want to be seen as boasting about themselves. So that's that's one thing that gonna hold them back. But basically it's just not putting out putting yourself out there and getting visible, getting content out there. Choosing what platforms you want to be on and just showing up.

speaker-1: Yeah. So what was it for you? Was it kind of the feeling a little uncomfortable boasting about yourself? Because I think for me it's a combination of things, right? It's what's keeping me from really putting myself out there, promoting myself as much as you know, I guess maybe the results or the the feedback that I've gotten from clients would maybe they would expect. but it's like yeah, it's the not really wanting to boast about myself. Also it's you know, it can be kind of scary to put yourself out there. But what was it for you that kinda held you back?

speaker-0: Part of it for me initially when I first first very started my business was I didn't think I had to. Like social me social media didn't exist when I started my business. Right. So I just went the traditional route and just started the business by advertising. And it was advertising a business. It was nothing to do with me. So I wasn't on my website. There was no picture of me on the website. My name even wasn't on the website. We didn't say who founded the company. Nothing. Right. So I was completely invisible. And then when social media did start, the same thing, then if you you googled my name, I didn't come up anywhere. Right. So I was completely unf invisible. And for me, when social media came, I looked at it as great, it's social for my friends, it's not for business. So I started off that way. And then when it was obvious that you should be on there and promote your business, I just didn't want to. I had then it was kind of imposter syndrome or I'm not good enough. I don't want to look I don't want to be on camera and I certainly didn't want to be on moving camera, right? On video. I did not want to do this kind of thing at all. Not at all. So yeah, that really held me back for a long time.

speaker-1: Yeah. And what was the kind of breaking point for you? What kind of got you to be like, Okay, I just need to kind of get over myself, kind of do the scary thing, kind of put myself out there? Like what made you take that leap?

speaker-0: It was a coach that said to me, You know, Angie, it's not about you. It's about the people you serve. And then when I heard that, it was like, my God. my God. Right, that's that is Yeah, I was looking at it all wrong. It was I was completely self involved, I would say, in terms of the the way I was looking at things. That and it was just just hearing this, it's not about you, it's who you serve. And coming at it from a serving perspective changed everything. And he he basically said, There's an audience for everyone and there's an audience waiting for you if you would just get out of your own way.

speaker-1: Yeah. That's so good. It's not it's not about you, it's about the people that you serve, right? And I think when you take that lens and you apply it to really anything that you do, it it's it makes it easy to get out of your own way and, you know, just not make it about you, right? Especially in the domain of creating content, putting yourself out there, taking these videos, sending it off into the world. And it's really easy to just get so caught up in like not wanting to look bad, being maybe a little embarrassed, and it's just like It's not about me, it's about the people that I'm trying to help, the people I'm trying to provide value to. And I think if you can lead that and use that as like your North Star in most things, both in content and how you lead your business, I think you'll be better off for it.

speaker-0: That's right. Yeah.

speaker-1: I love it. So with the content creation, right? Like once you did start, did you come out and you were just great at it right away?

speaker-0: God no. Not at all. Okay, the way I started with video was because I knew I knew I had to do it, but I I I was just terrible at it. I had a coach that said to me, Can you send me a a testimonial? And I said, Yeah, sure, I'll send you something tonight. I'll I'll write it tonight and I'll send it to you. And he goes, No, no, no, no, no, no. On video. And I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. So but I went and I I did it, but it it was just like he just wanted a thirty second video and it took me all afternoon to film this video. 'Cause one I had such a I was such a perfectionist, everything had to be right. So it if I made a mistake I just stopped and started again and I stopped and started again so many times. And then by the time I got it right was like the whole afternoon had gone and then the lighting had changed and I have to start again and find somewhere else to record it. So and then the more I the more I recorded the more flustered I got because this isn't happening, this isn't happening. So that's how bad I was at the beginning, right? And then I realised that I had to do it because if I was gonna run a coaching business and do courses and things like that, I had to get on camera. And podcasts weren't such a thing 'cause they weren't on video at the time, but it was still the knowledge that I needed to to be better on on video. So I I just set up a twenty one day challenge and just invited people in. I said if you want to if you're uncomfortable on video and you want to get good, come and join me for this twenty one day challenge. So I taught them something different every day for twenty one days, gave them homework to do, put it you know, record your video, put it in a private Facebook group. And we did that for twenty one days. And at the end of the twenty one days everyone was fine being on camera. So it was just practice, practice, practice, getting comfortable with the unknown or the uncomfortable and then working your way through it until just didn't become an issue anymore. So that's that's what I did.

speaker-1: I love it. I could see how that challenge environment doing it with like a smaller, more intimate group of people where, you know, the stakes are a bit lower. You're done you're not gonna take these videos and put out into the big scary internet. You're just gonna take them and put them into this private face group where we can all kind of, you know, celebrate each other, cheer each other on and give each other feedback, you know, notes and whatever if if they want it. I could see how that could absolutely work and that sounds amazing. So You mentioned the idea of perfectionism, right? You were a perfectionist and that was kinda you know, is what you you took a hundred takes of the same video trying to get it right and I definitely suffer from that. I'll record even still today, right? This is the sixty second podcast that I've done, I'll still record intros and outros, you know, four or five, seven times at least, like each time. And it's just something I need to get out of my own way a little bit. So if you were coaching me, giving me advice on how to get over that perfectionist 'Cause that can definitely be one thing that gets in the way. Like even when you do start, just trying to be perfect can also get in the way of even just starting and putting the first thing out there. How would you coach me through helping me get over this perfectionism idea?

speaker-0: Mm. I would say, first of all, n no one's gonna notice between take one and take seven any difference, I think. That's one of the things that I realized quite early on was we're so self involved in what we're doing and we're so self conscious, right, on what we're doing. But everybody else is leading their own busy lives. And what you think might be a mistake on video, people wouldn't even notice. You know, I I've done recordings in the past where or it's been live or I've done a recording where I couldn't go back and change it. I can't remember why. But when you're recording it, you're thinking, my God, that's like either a huge gap or I stumbled there and that's gonna sound terrible. And then when you watch it back, didn't even notice it was there. So it seems worse when we're doing it than when we actually watch it back. It doesn't doesn't really get that noticed. And then the other thing I would say is even if it is noticeable, it's usually so what? It's not a big thing. And eighty percent done is better than one hundred percent of nothing. Right? So and it just it's just a waste of time, right? Life's too short. That's what I think.

speaker-1: For sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you I think both points are a hundred percent accurate, right? This idea of trying to get it perfect is you know, nobody's really gonna notice you like except for you, right? I have a few videos that like I can go back and watch and like I can see all the little imperfections and things, but nobody else is seeing that besides myself. And then I think what you finish with there is like the point that I need to have on a billboard right in front of me here is like eighty percent done is better than a hundred per percent of nothing, right? It's just yeah you can't let trying to be perfect be the thing that gets in the way of you just getting started and getting going and finishing. Right. You can't let that be in what gets in the way of finishing because this perfect idea, like one, it's an it's inachable, really like it's never gonna be perfect. And it's also just like as far as like the order of priorities, done is way higher than perfect. Right? Like you need it to be done and then you can make it better over time. So yeah. Yeah. I need that reminder.

speaker-0: We tend to to procrastinate a bit as well on that. So and that's a reason I mean you look at why you're procrastinating, it's kind of okay, well, you know, what's really underneath that, what's stopping you, what's getting in your way? But sometimes we have to look at those questions as well. Is this something I really wanted to do? Or

speaker-1: What else have you found but the idea when you've investigated procrastination further? Because as I've started to do that more recently, trying to be more intentional, because I've had conversations with experts that help people kind of get through procrastination. It's made me think about the idea a bit more critically. Like some of my ideas, like we had Adam Telove on and he brought up this idea that procrastination is more of an emotional regulation problem than it is like a lack of discipline. And I think one of the ideas that he had shared is like you build up this idea in your mind. And again, and it this is my own experience with procrastination. If I don't feel like I'm gonna be good at the thing, like I don't know how to do it really well and be almost perfect at it, it's like there's so much more resistance to the thing 'cause it's like I don't wanna go in and be bad at this thing. Is that one that you've noticed yourself with procrastination and there are other

speaker-0: Exactly, that's definitely it. And like for me as well, when I was running my copywriting agency, it doesn't happen so much now, but when I was running my copywriting agency and I had a big project to do, and it's like maybe it's a difficult subject, you know, I'm not something I'm not familiar with personally, but I have to get to know it. So there's a lot of time to invest in it and lots of things to sort of sort out and juggle and understand and research. In those days when I had projects like that and there's a deadline to them, right? So I'm definitely very deadline driven. And there's a deadline to them and I'll think, yeah, I've still got time, I've still got time, I've still got time and then so you until the point where you know that if you don't do it now, it's not gonna get done by the deadline. So I would and then I would do everything except sit down and do this project. I would go and clean the house. So which is not something I like to do, but obviously I prefer to clean the house rather than do this project. So I find now that if I just do things in steps and just say, I'm just gonna do this for five minutes. I'm just gonna make a start for five minutes and do a tiny bit and then see how I go. And then usually I find that once I start, I'm off and I don't then get up until it's finished. And it's not five minutes, then it will go on until okay, I finished it.

speaker-1: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I definitely still have a long way to go in my journey and kind of I don't know if procrastination is one of those things that's ever overcome. I think it's just one of those things you kind of live with and everybody experiences it in a different way and finds their own antidote to it. So I'm still working to kind of figure out what that is for me because you know, one of the hardest things about being an entrepreneur is that there's no buddy above you that's giving you like hard deadlines, telling you what you need to do, it needs to be done by this day. Sure, like once you start engaging with clients and you bring business in like yeah then those clients create pressure and like deadlines for you to get certain things done at a certain time. But then when it comes to doing the work to improve the business, right? Make things better, right? Improve the sales deck or you know, whatever. There there's no deadlines. There's nobody reinforcing those deadlines on Yeah,

speaker-0: Do it. Yeah.

speaker-1: except for you. So yeah. It's just one of those things you kinda have to battle with and and learn to work with and work through over time.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm. one thing I'd say on that would be to get somebody to be that holds you accountable. So even if you don't actually have a real deadline at such, if you tell somebody I'm gonna do this and just remind me that I've got to do this, just ask me next week have I done it, kind of thing. At least then you've got somebody to hold you accountable.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's smart. I definitely need to do that. 'Cause I feel like that has been one of those th pieces that have been missing is just, you know, that idea of the mentor, the coach in my life that I check in with regularly and it's you know, it's hard like when you start a new business, like you don't really have any money to like pay a coach. But it doesn't have to be somebody that you pay. Like I I kinda understand this idea, but then it's almost again like an internal battle. It's like Who do I ask? Do I just ask like a friend? Like that feels kinda weird. But I think if they're a friend, they'd be more than willing to help. with that. So I appreciate that.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Right. Exactly. Yeah, a hundred percent. So you talked about you having a copywriting agency. And I think copywriting is one of those skills that's just a meta skill that if you can get good at copywriting and you know, my definition or understanding of copywriting, it's like persuasive words, right? It's persuasive writing is copywriting. So one of those things that even in the age of AI, AI is still I would take like the best copywriter in the world over over AI still any day. Right. Like there's it's it's one of those skills that takes a while to learn. So for the people that are listening, including myself who are early on in their understanding of copywriting, what are some of those like core basic principles of copywriting that you could tell a beginner to help them kind of get started with that skill? Well

speaker-0: Okay, that's a big question. I think, yeah, one of the things about copywriting is as you say, it's it's one of the most important skills you could learn as a business owner. Right. Not just you don't have to be a copywriter with a job, but you have to know about copywriting for your business because it's so critical to everything in your business, really. And people like okay, when I s first started copywriting in Singapore There was a lot of attention to design, graphic design of how things looked. And not s not so much about the words that were on the page. They didn't care. So I would literally go to a design agen I an agency and get a job, get a brief from them, and sometimes the brief will be just just write something there and write something there. There was no brief. Write something there and write something there and write something there. They showed me like a brochure with, you know, the Latin dummy text. fill these words in here. So no respect whatsoever for what words could do in the in the work. But actually, even if you have pictures, if you have no words, your marketing doesn't mean anything, right? And yeah. It's so crucial because you're basically selling to people while you're not there. So your words have to do everything. Like a salesperson can go in and you can build a rapport and you can, you know, have a conversation and lead the sale on. But you're not there, those words have to sell on behalf of that salesperson, right? You've got to get that click, right? Yeah. So the the main principles,

speaker-1: I think maybe and I can try and I can try and ask this in a way that's a little bit more easier to answer not not such a huge question, I guess. But I think maybe what do you feel like when you started your own journey of learning copywriting? Some of those mistakes that you made early on. Like what are the common mistakes that you that you made early starting with copywriting that you ultimately learned over time?

speaker-0: Being too verbose, too many words, be one. You've got to keep it short and simple. Be one. Write to an age group that's like twelve years old. Be another. Right? Hook them in with something that's gonna make so basically each sentence or each word needs to go on to the next. It needs to give them a reason to read more. So you've got to go through that journey of you know and I'd say one of the things a lot of people miss out in their copywriting piece is the empathy part. After the hook, you've got to have a section that makes the reader understand that you understand where they are. So you've got to sort of repeat the pain, if you like, of where they are and just make it understood, yeah, I'm talking to you. Right. So that you you want them to feel at the end of it that, my God, you're speaking to me. How did you read my mind? That's what you've got be thinking of, right? So that's that's often a piece that gets missed. And

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: that's one of the most crucial pieces because that's when they start to trust you. When they they get to understand, my God, you're you're talking about the problems I have personally. And, you know, nobody's understood this before, but you understand it. So therefore if you understand it, you'll be able to fix my problem.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's one of those sayings that has stuck with me. I think I heard Alex Hermozzi or somebody else say it. The person or the business that can most clearly articulate the problem that the prospect is is experiencing is going to win the deal. Because if you so clearly articulate the problem that this person is experiencing, they automatically will believe that you you have a solution for it. If you can accurately and clearly articulate the problem that I'm experiencing, it's like, this guy understands the problem. He's gotta have a way to to fix it.

speaker-0: Yeah. And then I would but I would say also you mention AI. AI can do a pretty good job of this, but you have to know what to put in in order to get good stuff out, right? Yeah. So one of the things is Just been able to prompt it correctly and just say exactly what you want out of it and what role the AI should play. So the best copywriter in the world, right? It's like the tell me who you are, you're the best copywriter in the world to write me A B C. And you can get some pretty good stuff out of it. Yeah. And like when AI first came, you know, when ChatGP date was released, someone told me about it. I wasn't even aware of it. And someone told me about it and I was like, Computers can't write, there's no way. That the English language is too complicated. I taught it for ten years, it's too complicated. So then I tried it and I was like, okay, this is this is gonna change my business. I and I'd had all the way through running the business for over twenty years, I'd had I'd had This is one thing I'm gonna say to your listeners is always be prepared for change. So all the way through the business there were changes and we had to pivot all the you know, every few years we'd have to do something differently because the the business had changed, the market had changed. Mostly it was technology driven. So it was things like when I first started the business, my main jobs were newsletter writing for print newsletters. Like that's how far back that went. Print newsletters. And Then when Google came along, that changed everything. So we had to then learn how to write for the web, write for the internet. And that was a different thing. Then there were things like mass email. You have to write for that and all that kind of stuff. So it was different things at different times that changed what we were doing. And then you had to learn new skills to adapt, right? So being able to adapt is crucial in business, but your business won't be around for very long. And but chat GPT was the biggest one, for sure. That was okay, this has changed how people are going to write.

speaker-1: How did you navigate this change? So now we're a few years into this, how did you navigate this change favorite?

speaker-0: Yeah, I just well first of all the first at first I put my head in the sand no, this isn't happening. No. Then realised, okay, yeah, it is happening and you know, like as you say, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. This is here to stay. And what I've come I've come to the conclusion now is very early on it was kind of like it's a big pendulum that would swing one way or the other. So I had some clients that was, no way are you gonna use AI in my writing. Do not use AI AI in my writing. So that was one side of the spectrum. The other side of the spectrum was, Yeah, I don't need you. Because I can get A AI to do it. And I'd go to networking meetings and introduce myself as a copywriter and they'd say, Do people still need copywriters? I was like, Well, no, no. So But I think that it's it's coming back now towards the middle where people are starting to realise that the AI can do the big bulk of it. Right. And it's great for productivity, it's great for idea generation and for the writing and summarizing and all that kind of stuff is really good. But you still need, as they say, a human in the loop. You need somebody that's there at the beginning and there at the end, right? So to actually tidy it out. Make sure it's what you want when it you get the output, is it actually what you want? And and I think that's where sometimes as well a copywriter is important in terms of like I ha I had a client who came to me and he said, Okay, I just need you to tidy this up. I've run it through AI and it's for my website and you know, I just need you to help just edit it, right? So I quoted him an editing fee instead of a copywriting fee. And then when I looked at the work that he sent me, I'm like No. This is this is terrible. Yeah. So so with some clients they don't know what they don't know. So he didn't know enough about copywriting to know okay, this isn't this should not be this way. So if if you're in that bucket, then you need a copywriter because it doesn't matter what AI does for you, if you didn't give it the right instructions in the first place, you're not going to get any anything half decent out of it. Right. So you still need the skill of a copywriter and to know what copywriting is in order to get something good out.

speaker-1: For sure. Yeah, you need that initial seed as you had talked about. And it's so much more, and trust me, I've tried. It's so much more than just taking the PDFs of the best copywriting books and loading them into a message and just being like, Hey, use the principles from these books and help me write a copy, a landing page for my business that does X, Y, and Z, right? It's that doesn't work, I promise. I've tried a thousand times. But so the yeah, you need like and I think the issue with it is is you still need the person, the the human, and maybe AI will eventually get to this point. But like you still need someone like yourself who has the ability, the skill, like of decades of copywriting to be able to see the initial vision, right? Like have the initial vision of this is your message, this is your unique angle, like this is what we need to press on, this is what we need to emphasize, this is what the copy the copy should achieve. Right. Like you need that initial vision, like that seed, right? That that the strategy, I guess, might be the right word to kind of catch all of that together. And then you, once you have that strategy, that initial seed, that vision, then you can have the AI kind of help with the nuts and bolts of actually generating the words that will kind of fill in and fit within that larger strategy for that business. So I think that uniquely human like it's a your skill, your ability, your differentiator, your value as a copywriter. If there's any other copywriters listening, or if there's anybody else who's You know, an expert who feels like their work is being just completely automated or replaced by artificial intelligence is like there's still a ton of value for the person who has the ability to plant the right seeds and give those seeds into AI to let that AI can kind of build off of, right, or grow from. I guess if we want to continue that analogy. So like I guess if we were to dig into that and explore that a little bit more, how do when you're approaching a new client, like working with a new client? And you're working to kind of build out that initial vision or that understanding of like what their message should be. What does that process look like?

speaker-0: Yeah, that's such an important process. So what I do now with people is instead of saying I'm a copywriter or a personal brand and business coach, and I'm still taking the same principles. I'm doing the same thing I always did, but it's just a different packaging. It's wrapped in a different package, right? So having the message clear is the most important thing in your business. If your message isn't clear, And nobody understands what it is you do, they're not gonna buy from you. That's just principle number one. They're not gonna buy from you if they don't understand what it is they're getting. So being able to convey the value that you bring is the first thing, I think. And people overcomplicate as well. They overcomp they're trying to be clever and I say d if if you've got a choice between clear and clever, just choose clear all the time. Forget the clever. You know, to you don't have to be a copywriter kind of thing. You're not trying to impress people with your writing, you're trying to get them to buy from you. So be clear all the time. So we're really looking at just making it simple and basic. And sometimes people are surprised when I I say this is just write a sentence that's this structure and they look and it goes but that's so simple. Yeah. It is. But it's hard to actually get that information into that simple sentence because it's like what is it really? What do you really do? Like getting that information out of people is that's the ha the hard thing to to get.

speaker-1: Yeah, what do you really do? So when you're saying that, the way that I interpret that is meaning like, Okay, yeah, you do this surface thing, but like what is the outcome that you really deliver? Like kind of going layers deeper. Is that what is that what you mean by that? Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah. But also, you know, putting it in a simple sentence. So it's like you you you've got to really clarify what you do, who you do it for, what the results are. And I think a powerful one is then what do they not have to do as a result? So where are you alleviating their pain? Right. So it's using the word without without you know, this, that and the other. So and it's a simple formula. It's a simple formula, but it's the basically it's answering the question, what do you do? Yeah. And you go to you've probably experienced if you go to a networking event or whatever and someone asks you, What do you do? and you you you just stumble on your words. And it is it's the simplest question on the planet and it's one of the hardest to actually answer and lead to the question of, tell me more. That sounds interesting, tell me more.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So if you don't mind, I would love to flip it on you just so you could kind of serve as an example for the people in the audience. if if you're open to it. I think because I totally agree. Like finding the right way to answer I mean, there is no right way, right? That's just my perfectionist brain back there thinking. But like answering the question of what do you do is important, right? Is that first kind of initial hook both in person and it's also your answer to that question should be like the headline of your website and like kind of the main message that you lead in your content. Yeah. So I think if you could answer that question of what do you do and then kind of serve as an example, kind of a standard of the audience, if you're open to it.

speaker-0: Okay, well I've just changed mine. So and that's another thing as well, is everything that you plan is not set in stone. You can change things. And like I've been looking at okay, questioning myself, what do I really do and who do I really do it for? And I'm writing a book. I'm still working on the title of it, but it's around the plan B. Because you mentioned a little bit earlier about people are worried about their jobs. Because of AI to worry about the job. And I think this is a really valid thing because we don't know where it's going. We don't know what's going to happen. Basically, Gen X is my audience. So I'm helping Gen X to understand who they are, what value they bring, so that they can live a life with freedom and impact.

speaker-1: Wow.

speaker-0: giving with them. So it's helping people that they've been in in corporate all their life and they've either got to the stage where it's, I don't want to do this anymore, or I know something's coming and I may not have this anymore. I've got to prepare for the future of work. And the future of work is going to look very different. And it can be people who maybe want to go and do fractional work, be a fractional CMO or a CFO or whatever. Where they might work for several companies. in in that inner space that has them doing part time work at each company, but that's becoming very popular. Or they decide they want to set up their own business completely and take their knowledge and build a business based on that knowledge.

speaker-1: Yeah. So I would love to explore this idea of what you think the future of work does look like. Do you think it is really driven by more like the individual kind of not to use too strong of a word, but kind of being forced into a situation where each individual kind of has to figure out how to create their own value for the world. So like they need to figure out like what value can I uniquely go provide? Is that like one of those core principles you believe the future of work looks like? I

speaker-0: So I think so. And and you look at like I look at my my children's generation and the values that they have are very different than the values we had. So the generation to generation is changing as well. So you've got this big shift in AI, plus a a complete and as a result of maybe social media more than AI, you've got a complete shift in how people see the world and how they want to live in it. And for the first I read this just last night actually, which validated what I was thinking. is that for the first time in history now there are less people taking part in social media than before. So there are people that are leaving. And the younger generation mostly are the ones that are, I don't wanna do this, this isn't my world. And they're going back to nature, simplification of life, small communities. And they just don't participate in social media. And I think part of it probably is like bullying, all of that kind of stuff as well. So

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: That's changing as well.

speaker-1: That's great to hear. I'm happy to hear that. The the world is healing. I think yeah. Yeah. I think there's enough awareness now of just how harmful social media is and how much it's just like I mean, you watch The Social Dilemma. that's a classic documentary that came out maybe almost ten years ago now, but it's eye opening of just how harmful social media platforms are. Obviously, again, there's two sides of every coin, especially with modern technology. It's only accelerating the two sides of the spectrum are only getting wider and wider apart. with all the technology that we're creating today. But yeah, social media has its its upsides, right? But it also can be very harmful in a lot of ways. But I would a hundred percent agree with you. And this is a an idea and a point that the listeners will recognize for me bringing up all the time. But it's something that I'm just really excited about is this idea, like the optimistic side of me. Obviously this whole disruption and people losing their job and kind of being forced into this situation is going to be hard and difficult and challenging for a lot of people. But the optimistic side of me is excited about the idea of more people kind of being almost kind of forced into a situation where they have to figure out how to create their own value for the world. Because I think in order to be successful in doing that, finding a way to for you to individually create value in the world, you have to learn so much more about yourself. Like what am I actually genuinely interested in? What what am I interested enough in and curious enough about to be able to spend the time required to get good enough at a thing to be able to provide the value to the world. Right. So I think it's going to bring more people connected to who they are authentically. Again, this is another conversation that seems to keep coming up on the podcast lately. But, you know, I believe that every individual does have a unique contribution to make to the world, right? Every individual has a divine spark within them. And I think that this transition is gonna bring everybody closer to that, or the people that can kind of successfully navigate it, bringing them closer to it. And then these tools will enable more and more individuals to be able to pursue that kind of journey. Not that it won't be tough because you're gonna have to, you know, take Be be bad at, you know, recording yourself, record the same video fifty times, starting out. it's gonna be a bumpy ride, but I think in the long run I think we'll be better for it because more people yeah, will will be brought to the world.

speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. I mean when I I started my business, I kind of did it because I really just wanted to stay at home and look after my kids. That was the re I didn't intend to start a business. Actually it was accidental. But it grew really quickly and then I ended up having to move out of not move out of the house, but move my office out of the house and and rent. And I ended up with a traditional business but I would never go back. to being employed. I think once you've tasted it, you don't want to go back. Right. It just gives you the freedom of choice. And that's that's what I want to give people is the ability to choose what they want to do. And I think when you're in a career a lot of the time, you're kind of work you're going on living your life on autopilot. It's this is what you were told to do. You had to get a job and work for one company and, you know, nine to six, whatever. Once you're forced to do something different, it's scary at first. But so many people I've spoken to have said when they look back afterwards and they join the dots after it's happened, then they realise that that was a catalyst for change that made their life better and that that they wouldn't go back. Right.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: This autopilot lifestyle of okay, th I get up and I go to the job or whatever. And then they realise halfway through This isn't what I want to do. Find what really moves you, what gives you passion and do that. Because like you spend at least a third of the day at work every day of your life. You spend a third of the day at work at least. Most a lot of people more, right? But it's gotta then be something that fills you up, right? It doesn't drain you, it's gotta fill you up.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's the that's the pursuit, right? That's what we're looking for. And at least that's what I'm looking for, right? Is just finding that thing that really does light me up. Like what is the thing that I'm gonna wake up every day excited about and then go to sleep tired because I, you know, you know, worked. I like kinda gave it it gave it everything, right? It's just what can I show up and just be so engaged and enthusiastic and working on? And I think there's I'm doing more and more of that I'm trying to do more and more of that every day and like I'm closer to it. but I think that's the pursuit that we're all on because I think Once you find something like that, everything else just kinda happens as a side effect, right? Like you're gonna be successful, you're gonna make the money. Yeah. Right. Everything else just kinda happens as a side effect. But

speaker-0: Yeah, I did that with my copywriting company. I never felt that I was working a day. Didn't feel like worked at all.

speaker-1: That's amazing. Yeah, and I think the Yeah, yeah. There I mean there's there's always gonna be moments where there's just like things that you don't wanna do, but it's like yeah the like the what the way that I describe it is like how good do you feel when you make progress? Like how good do you feel when you make progress when like you do a good and like I think the the cool thing about kind of stepping out and going and doing your own thing and you know, or preaching to the choir for most of the listeners here or other entrepreneurs, but the The coolest thing about stepping out and going out on your own, there's a lot of reasons, right? Like I think the act of doing that is you taking a bet on yourself to figure it out, right? You're taking full accountability over the outcomes in your life, right? You're not leaving the promotion, the the advancements of your career in the hands of anybody else. You're taking one hundred percent ownership over the outcomes that you create, right? Which I think is the you know, if you believe in yourself or you like Taking this action is like the the biggest bet you can make on yourself to go and figure it out, right? And go find the thing and create value for the world and make progress. And then it's it's up to you, right? Another great quote I think also from Alex Ramosy is entrepreneurship is just personal development wrapped in capitalism, right? So once you take this bet on yourself, go out and step out on your own, right? As you get better, as you grow as an individual, you will your business will grow, right? And you'll be able to move as quickly as you want to c as you want to move and as quickly as you can move. But Yeah, I'm excited about this. We could we could talk forever about, you know, the exciting future that we can create. Obviously it's it's up to us to go and do it. And it's up to people like yourself who's writing a book like you are to kind of inform and kind of make people aware and kind of help them through this journey. because it's it's bumpy, it's scary, and if there's people here to support, I would love to, you know, obviously be involved in that too. But anyways, Ange, thank you so much for the time. I have one final question for you. But before we get to that How can people find you?

speaker-0: They can go to my website, anStuff dot com. And I have a little quiz on there actually they can take if they want to just find out where the gaps are in what you're building and take the quiz and it will give you a report.

speaker-1: Amazing. Cool. We'll have the links to both of those in the description. I'm curious to take that quiz, so I'm definitely gonna pop off here and take that right away. But Ange, again, thank you so much for the time. My final question for you is a recurring question that I ask every guest. But if you had a giant billboard with one message to kind of deliver to the world that everyone in the world would see for ten seconds, what would that billboard say and why?

speaker-0: Believe in yourself and just do it.

speaker-1: Believe in yourself and just do it. I love it. That and I think the the reason for why is evident for the whole latter half of our conversation here today because you're all you've got and just get going, just get started. I love it. Ange, thank you so much for the time.

speaker-0: You're welcome. Thank you.

speaker-1: Thank you for listening. The main thing I'm taking away from this conversation is that putting myself out there gets a lot easier when I stop treating it like a test of me, like a test of myself. So even for this conclusion that I'm recording, right? My instinct is to focus on how I look, how I sound, and whether I get every single word correct. And that tends to honestly make it a lot harder for me to even just get started because I know that that's gonna mean I gotta make like eight or nine takes. I'm gonna hesitate and then Ultimately I wait to the last minute and then never really get it done very well to begin with. And then in other events where, you know, I have kind of a hard deadline to get this kind of intro and outro recorded. For the other things that I just want to create and put out there, it just never gets done because that that the amount of weight that I'm putting on it just gets in the way of me even getting started. Right. So Angie's point helped me to kind of get over that with helping to ask myself just a better question, like who Does this information help? Right. Focusing on helping the person that I'm creating this for. And then that shifts the focus, right? The small mistakes matter a whole lot less. The imperfect sentences matter a whole lot less. And the work, instead of being a test of me, just focusing on how this could help someone. So I still want to try and be thoughtful and clear, but I don't need to protect myself in every awkward moment before I put it out. My responsibility is to make the idea useful, say it as clearly as I can, and give the right person a chance to find it. So thank you, Ange, for that. If you want to get connected with Angie Dubb, you can find her website and personal brand quiz in the description of this episode. And if you're on a coaching program or you're an author and you want to make it easier for your audience to engage with your ideas and get value from your content, download the free program execution system toolkit in the description. It'll show you how to install what I call execution infrastructure so clients can actually follow through and get the results from your ideas. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you in the next one.