speaker-0: The only job of the first step is to produce a second step. And that's it. The best way to do it is just act on it and test it. Start small, start somewhere, anywhere, but most importantly, start now.

speaker-1: Today's guest is Mitesh Johnny. Mitesh is a writer and the author of The Process: Six Mechanics of Achievement. His work focuses on self-worth, taking action, and what happens when you're trying to move forward before you have a clear plan. In our conversation, we talk about how to start when you don't know what to do, why you don't need a complete plan before you begin, and how taking small steps can help you figure out what comes next. If you get value from this conversation, be sure to subscribe and share with a friend. Now please enjoy my conversation with Mitesh Johnny. Mitesh, thank you so much for being here.

speaker-0: Yeah, thanks for having me Ian.

speaker-1: Yeah, looking forward to it. So Matesh, you've spent a lot of time thinking about and writing about what happens at the beginning of change before there's a clear plan or an obvious next step. So my question for you is how do you start when you don't know what to do?

speaker-0: Mm-hmm. we talk a lot about what I call the power of reckless beginnings in one of the chapters in my book. And that's how a start will very likely look like, and it's okay. It's gonna feel a little bit random and reckless, but what I emphasize in that sort of beginning stage is is one thing, and I I like to use this analogy. It's of a box sitting on the floor. Right. Physics tells us that trying to get that box moving when you're dragging it, that first push is going to be the hardest. But then the friction that you will encounter when it's already moving to keep it moving is always limps. Right. So that's exactly what I try to tell my readers and my students is that the the beginning part of any endeavor is just to get moving and get going. And it's not necessarily trying to direct the box in a certain direction. Cause oftentimes we get stuck with two main blocks whenever we're about to start something, especially when you don't really know what you want to do and you're trying to find it. And that is you feel this need to kind of pick the perfect thing and make the right decision because you think it's going to be the be-all and end all of your journey. And so you've got to make the perfect decision. And we imagine it like this monumental first step. And that puts so much pressure and usually paralyzes us into acting in any way. And we are always kind of left waiting for the perfect sign to get started, the perfect circumstance, or meet the right person before we go for it. And that just never really happens, honestly. So instead of waiting around or sort of overanalyzing what to do, what I try to do is. Or what I try to advise is you've just got to pick very quickly, right? And when you pick quickly based on whatever your curiosity is that day, or whatever random hunch you may have about something, or a random idea you have, or some some inclination that you've always had in the back of your mind, when you pick one of those things really quickly and start acting, that's the only way to. Allow your intuition to guide you, right? Because I like to say that intuitive leaps are rarely supported by logic or by data. And the only way to truly allow your intuition to guide you is to just test out your hunches, your curiosity, and kind of go with the flow. So the beginning stage is going to look a lot like just surveying different things. And maybe you try one thing, it doesn't quite work out, but it leads to a second idea and gives you some insight and And you stumble forward, you fail forward. And that's just how the reckless beginning is supposed to look. And one other block that is again super common, I myself fall into it often, is this need to have a perfect or complete plan, all the way from step one all the way to 10 before we get going on step one. Because we just naturally crave clarity and certainty before we start on the journey. And again, You're not in a state of perspective in the beginning stages to have that kind of vision or clarity. So stop trying to force that and just start taking action, however random it feels, however reckless it may seem, logically speaking. And the only job of the first step is to produce a second step. And that's it, right? So lose any big expectation of uncovering some crazy. revelation before you start taking that first step. And clarity will always follow action. So that's kind of how I like to frame things is to allow your intuition to take the steering wheel, just focus on getting the momentum, getting that box moving. And then once you're moving along, a more cohesive path will reveal itself. And just to trust that the dots will connect as you start to move.

speaker-1: Yeah. Why do you think the natural response or the natural inclination is to put so much emphasis on that first step? Right? Put so much emphasis, kind of pressure almost on ourselves before we get moving and just start acting. Why do we put so much emphasis on the first step?

speaker-0: biggest thing is we think that once we pick there's no going beyond right for some reason we just have this tendency to think like once I pick this thing or once I start like that's it I'm locked in for you know forever for my life this is it I'm gonna devote my life to it this is gonna be my calling and that's usually not it right in the first steps you should expect to to need to pivot right soon after you take the first step. So that's just the nature of it. And sometimes your intuition leads you to opportunities in unexpected ways, right? Maybe you were supposed to meet that person at this random event that you thought was not connected to what you wanted to do, right? But you just kind of had a hunch and you went and you met the person and then that pointed you in a completely different direction. So a little bit of that zigzag is part of the journey. And I think when we put pressure on ourselves to think this is it. Once I choose that's the be all and end all, that's when we feel like, okay, well, I better think this through. And then you settle into that logical sort of mind frame over planning, frenzy over analyzing. And then you just you stay stuck that way, right?

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, you almost want to beat your logical, rational brain to the starting line, right? By just forcing action, forcing quick, reckless action. I love that term reckless beginnings. Just get moving before your rational, logical mind can start to put all the walls up and start making you second guess think, being like, No, no, no. It'll be we'll be so much better off if we have like a super detailed and thorough plan, if we've thought everything through, right? We might waste time on a first step if we haven't thought everything through, there might be something more efficient and better that we can do. And I definitely fall into that all the time. so it's almost like you want to beat your logical brain to the punch and just go, right? Just go, just act, right? And you you've talked about intuition and having like a sense, like you know somewhere, somehow, kind of what that step could be. Right. If you just take thinking out of the equation and you prioritize action over A perfect plan, right? If you just prioritize action, your intuition's gonna take the wheel and drive you to something. Right. And if you just continue prioritizing action, the intuition will guide you in a in a way, which sounds very ethereal. And I'd love to linger on this idea of intuition because it's something that I've tr been trying to take like create more space for and almost hear more clearly. Again, the right words are escaping me and I know you'll be able to unpack this a little bit more el eloquently than I am. Sure. But I guess a good place to start might be when you say intuition, kinda what do you mean by that?

speaker-0: So it's one thing I mean by that is there's some sort of inner voice or guidance. And when we try to apply logic to it, it just doesn't work, right? It always seems like it's random, reckless, or haphazard, or it doesn't fit into the puzzle that is going on in the logical side of your brain. So intuition is about it's a lot about being present, listening to your gut feeling. And while that might sound a little ethereal or kind of mystical, one thing is just your curiosity, right? If you have random curiosity of something, or I like to see two other areas where it's easy to look is one are your inclinations, right? Like your curiosities or your interests, things that when you engage in those tasks. you feel like time goes by super fast and you just, you know, lock lose tack track of time, those kind of tasks, those are your interest inclinations and your curiosities. And then the other side of things is the obstacles that you have faced in your life, right? Is there something that always eludes you? Or is there like this recurring pattern of a block that always comes into your life and you just can't quite get it, get through it. When you try to go ahead and, you know, lean into solving that block or lean into that curiosity or inclination that you have, those are great starting points, right? That is part of your intuition guiding you. It's because those things continue to come up in your life, those patterns, right? Or that thing that you're constantly interested in doing. That is your intuition, as simple as that. And again, lose the notion that just because I'm inclinated to to do this particular thing. you know, try to stop trying to extrapolate that first step into a lifelong journey, because that's not it. It's just about taking that first step. And sometimes that points you in a step two that is in a completely different direction. But still, that wasn't a wasted first step that you took. It was, it got momentum for you. It helped you meet the right person, get the right opportunity, put yourself in the right mindset. So that's all the purpose of that first step is. And obstacles and inclinations are a great. Place to start because they're usually a little emotionally charged and they kind of get you up and off the ground. And yeah, that's it. That's a simple way to exercise your intuition, right? Is just tap into these two aspects of your life, think about something. And as long as you pick and act, you cannot be wrong. That's just kind of how I've learned intuition sort of operates. Right. Is as long as you pick something, don't overthink like, is this the right curiosity? no, just like pick it, just go. And that is that's the only point of intuition is to get you going, guide you in the right direction. And then your logical mind will catch up and and follow along a more cohesive path as you continue.

speaker-1: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like the logical mind, once you get into motion and get into action, will be able to f fill in the blanks, right? It'll be able to fill in the gaps, right? There's definitely still value to the logical side of your thinking. And I guess maybe that's a interesting idea that we could explore, right? So use your intuition as the compass and then the philosophy of action, right, to get you moving. And then what role does the logical part of your brain play? in the journey. Like when does the logical, the thinking, the planning, like is there still a place for that?

speaker-0: Absolutely. It's just like not in the beginning when you were it's about overindulging in the logical mind. And we like to do that because we we like to think that we're making a rational move, right? Or try to justify what we're about to do in some way. And that's when we overindulge in the logical step. But it's just like I said, that intuition is kind of like your compass for guidance, right? and that kind of points you in the right direction. But once you actually get there. And once you actually have steered along for a little while and you've tried and surveyed different avenues, different things, and now things are starting to make a little more logical sense when you look back and now you're in a more cohesive path, right? Now you're no longer surveying a little more down the road. You're not zigzagging, trying this and that. Now you have more of a path that's now making more sense. That's when you of course start to engage your logical mind and you try to to make sure you're doing things that are effective or you are analyzing what you're doing and switching or or trying different methods of doing the same thing and optimizing and all of that stuff definitely comes into play once you have a cohesive path. But in the beginning, when you're maybe doing a little bit of testing, that's when you don't want to indulge in the logical mind because it's not going to make sense to your logical mind. to kind of fit the puzzle together.

speaker-1: Yeah. And you're gonna be able to come up with every excuse why you shouldn't, why you shouldn't do this, why you shouldn't do that, why you that doesn't make any sense to start. It's like, okay, I'm just gonna do that and then what? Right. You're just gonna overthink it, right? And that's definitely again something that I struggle with is a lot of that overthinking, which just gets in the way of starting, right? And starting is the you know, no pun intended, but the critical first step. and just getting to action and then things there's gotta be some kind of analogy there. It's like the the intuition can start the fire and then the logical mind can build it to be bigger. I don't know. Something something there maybe. But the idea of hearing your intuition, right? And you brought up the idea of exercising your intuitive muscle in a way. And I love that metaphor. Because I absolutely think it is something that you can become more in tune with being able to hear, being able to sense it, kind of being able to Trust it, right? It's almost like you're building your trust and your intuition through the evidence of, you know, examples of how you followed and how it maybe it worked out. But for many people and for myself, if you would have talked to me about this idea six months ago, I would have had no idea, you know, well intuition, like, okay, I I've heard that word before, but I haven't really recognized it maybe in my day-to-day. Are there things that we can do to hear our intuition more clearly or become more in tune with that intuition? Like what are some things that we can do to maybe interface with our intuition.

speaker-0: Like I like that you asked that question, but again, when we try to explain intuition, we're again just kind of falling into the logical sort of thing of making sure, you know, like how am I gonna know when I'm doing the right thing? Right. And that's that's again, we're falling into the logical frame of mind. So it's best not to try it's it's hard to explain like what it is. It's usually a feeling rather than like a calculated sort of you know. the logic, right? It's it's it's usually a feeling. Like I've got feeling you have a hunch to to make that phone call to that person, to send that email, or you see a random ad on TV that kind of makes you think of something like an image or a tone in the ad kind of makes you think of something specific. And then so you know sometimes intuition will try to reach you in in weird ways. And so honestly the only way To know whether it's useful is to test it, right? And usually the cost of testing things in the early stages is pretty low. Like if you just are gonna go to an event because you had a hunch or you you made that phone call and you were invited to an event, it's just a couple of hours, right? So, or whatever. So the cost is pretty low to test these things, but it's important to to act on them because then you start to prove to yourself and you start to actually see how it it works and how how you did end up meeting the right person at that event or whatever it may be, right? So again, it's don't try to think about am I reading this hunch right? the best way to do it is just act on it and test it. And if you if it wasn't quite right, no problem. It's not in vain. You're just channeling your intuition and then you will have another hunch and you'll test that. And low cost testing in the beginning. So don't worry about it so much and don't make try to make any sense of it, right?

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, well said. In again my limited journey so far, my short journey so far of trying to become more attuned and listen to the intuition and take action following my intuition. I have found the intuition can be a little bit more active, if that's the right way of saying it, in moments where I create silence, right? When I'm you know working out and not listening to music, or I'm working and just not listening to anything, or if I'm just kind of going for a walk without headphones in, or if I'm sitting and writing and journaling without again, just more moments of silence where there's no external music or podcast or whatever that I'm listening to that's almost like distracting me and pulling me away. I found that in those moments, I don't know, the intuition is just more active. Is that something that you found in your experience?

speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. and that that's one way for sure. into ac intuition acts in funny ways. like I said, sometimes it is those moments of silence or you know, you're just kind of reading or you're doing something super calm and like contemplating and something will come to you. And sometimes it will be in a chaotic situation, right? Where you're maybe engaging in something, you're watching a video and you're s engrossed in it, and like I said, a specific image or tone or idea sort of elicits some some sort of you know concept in your head and then you you gotta like pause the video and like think right so usually yeah silence invites that thought to grow in your mind but it can come like the trigger can be anything it can be from silence it can be from not silence from listening to something watching something but usually what I find is if I have the some intuitive revelation or something while I'm watching something I always have I have to pause the video or pause what I'm doing. And to really let it soak in. So yeah, for it to grow, you can you you foster this silence or or a meditation of sorts almost. But it can come from any any sort of spot. So yeah, it's just it's a weird thing, but again, you just gotta you just gotta try it, right? It's like experimentation that you will allow more of it to come into your life.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's a fascinating thing. So once you kind of get through, you're in this reckless beginning, you're experimenting, you're trying a bunch of different things, you're going, how do you determine what's worth pursuing? Is that another sense, kind of intuitive sense that you'll have, or what do you think?

speaker-0: I feel like it it just somehow converges, right? Like you try a few things and then you start to notice maybe a pattern in all the things that you've tried, or you have come across some person or opportunity when you've tried those things that sort of point you in a different way. And it's it converges and it's something you know eventually when you find yourself already in the path. And you and then when you look back, that's when it makes sense, right? So There's a story about Steve Jobs that you probably heard, but you know, when he first dropped out of college, right? And one of the first things he did was he sat into a a calligraphy class. He just took the class, he wasn't enrolled in it. So it was like he well, he's not getting any credit for it. he it makes no sense. Like it doesn't really fit into who he was about to become, right? If he thought of it then, it didn't really make sense. It didn't seem like a useful skill by any means. It was just something he was curious about and he kind of just said in the class, whatever, right? And he acted on that curiosity coupled with spontaneous action, right? And and then he just left it. He kind of left that where it was. And many years later, when he was building Mac OS or whatever, all some of the principles from calligraphy, which again sounds very disconnect from what he was doing with technology came back to him and he integrated some of the calligraphy principles into the design language of of the Mac. And it really did revolutionize how we see the Mac today for its design language, right? So again, there was no way for him to know how that was going to fit into his puzzle, right? But he just did it. And and it stayed dormant for so many years until it became useful. Right. So sometimes intuition what happens is it leads you to certain things and then they seem like, okay, whatever, that didn't really work out. But somehow they do fit into the puzzle. And Steve Jobs himself says you can't really connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them in hindsight. So eventually you will, as as you continue to steer with your intuition, and then it comes to a more cohesive path, which probably Steve Jobs found at some point where he was like, okay, I'm sure I'm working on this computer or whatever. And then those other pieces of the puzzle start to fit in all of a sudden. And that's when the magic sort of comes alive. So it's again, you will know when you have a cohesive path from the feeling you have about the task you're doing or the project you're working on. It's all about you know, you feel a sense of purpose. you feel like you could continue to do that task for for a long time without knowing how much time passed. And and so those things will just kind of come and converge into a cohesive path. And all the other pieces of the puzzle were never in vain, right? They were always just in preparation for this. And even if they don't directly connect like that calligraphy skill became useful, they were still very important to getting you to that path.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating to hear in so many stories, like you hear Steve Jobs' story, you hear the stories of these people who have done some amazing things. And, you know, the intuition, the feeling, the curiosity is definitely at the center of that, just pursuing their genuine interest and curiosity, which as we've defined as a part of intuition, those inclinations as you define it, which I think is is so great. When you hear their stories, that's where you hear a lot of like Coincidence, right? Like the this was a coincidence, like accident, right? It's and then in hindsight it all makes sense, right? You can connect the dots when you look backwards. but you can't always, you know, plan it all out when you look ahead, and it's I don't know, magical. It's very cool. Right. So would love to dig a little bit deeper even into this with you. Sure. Because in you know, our world today, the idea of intuition. doesn't really make much sense like with the rational mind, right? It's like, no, no way. And like everything is structured so rationally and we're kind of taught from a young age, at least in my experience, I was, you know, everything is like science, like rational, you know, planning, like all this stuff is kind of what we put a lot of emphasis on. And then again, you hear all these stories of the people who kind of follow their intuition and they are the ones that are creating really amazing things in our world. Like how do you think about the idea of where intuition kinda comes from.

speaker-0: Where it comes from?

speaker-1: Yeah. Do you have any like I know like you read like Rick Rubin, right? The creative act. He has this whole kind of ethereal idea of where intuition and ideas and these kinds of things come from. Do you have any thinking that you've done through the idea of where you think intuition is coming from? Because again, like a lot of our conversation has sounded like this idea you almost just have to have like faith in the intuition, right? You have to put your trust in it just to start and just get going. Right? It is and it rhymes with a lot of the ideas of relationship, I guess, with with God, which sounds weird to say, 'cause again, I was not raised with any religion. This is something that I just kind of found on my own like a few months ago. And the idea of like each individual having a divine spark within them, a unique purpose, a you unique reason for being here. And you kind of only hear that when you follow something like your intuition. So it's almost like a faith kind of idea. Do you have any thoughts on on where intuition comes from?

speaker-0: Absolutely. I think that certain important guiding ideas or thought sort of are are out there. Okay. I know again this one might get a little more mystical, but I have some examples that sort of point to it and they're out there, right? And they just have to find the idea or concept or whatever it is. It has to find the right kind of mind or person to to materialize through, right? I think it was Michael Jackson. At one point he had I think he had a dream about a song. I think it was a melody or lyrics or whatever about a song. And he literally woke up in the middle of the night. He wrote this down because he had this clear sort of vision. And then what he did was he he ran to he got to his studio, got his team in in the middle of the night. And he's like, We need to record this and get this materialized. As soon as possible. And when someone said, like, why couldn't you just wait until tomorrow morning? This is what he said. He said, Because if I wait any longer, God might give this idea to Prince. Right? Prince was his kind of contemporary, you know, artist that was also really great artists. So a lot of there's a lot of accounts of this sort of concept of when you have that sort of idea almost granted to you. by God or, you know, the universe or whatever force that you want to subscribe to. When you have this idea granted to you, you have it for a limited time to act on it, right? And otherwise it's gotta go somewhere. So it will sort of have to materialize through other people or other other ways, right? So if you that's that's one reason why it's so important to kind of act on it quickly and pick something quickly and really get it going on the ground. And another thing is It is always just awarded, like the idea is usually awarded to a person who's prepared for it, right? I like to say, like for in the example of Isaac Newton thinking of that the theory of gravity or whatever when the apple fell, right? It wasn't just a random apple that fell. It was really a mind that had worked. To ask the right questions when it saw such a simple thing happening, just the apple falling. Lots of people saw apples falling, right? It wasn't the first time it was witnessed, but he had cultivated the mind through through work and through you know, research and all of this discipline that was awarded that perspective to see the apple falling in a certain way and ask the right questions. And that's why that preparation beforehand. Is what made the apple falling incident so so revolutionary for for humankind, right? Because it wasn't in itself a revolutionary thing. Apples fall all the time, right? So there's a couple of these things. Yes, you have to have some faith. You have to have a level of preparation to be awarded these these insights, if you will, from who knows where they come from. But you can say God, you can say universe or any higher power that you might want to subscribe to. But there is something out there. And it feels like these ideas and insights are just waiting to be materialized, but they have to go through the right mind, the right person. And so that preparation is also really important to make yourself worthy of it. And then when you get it, you gotta like in the middle of the night, Michael Jackson gotta get it, get it going right before God gives it to someone. Because the ideas have to materialize some way and if you're gonna be the recipient then you have to really wield that in a in a way with urgency.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's really interesting just how that kind of idea was very prevalent. Like this faith of like, you know, the the universe is, you know, where these ideas and like this whole idea was very popular in human civilization for thousands of years, and then in modern day, like these ideas just really don't fit with the overly rational mind. It almost feels like there's we almost over overdid it on that, but whatever. We're not here to change how the how the world thinks in this in this conversation is just exploring the idea. But yeah, I think your point about Michael Jackson reminded me of an idea that I think Beethoven had a very similar thing. Like he would or maybe it was Mozart. One of the two, but there are many stories of Mozart being in conversation with somebody and then he would just hear the sounds that he wanted to go and would just stop and then immediately go and play. Right. And it's just again, it's another representation of your reckless beginning and just immediate action, just getting into and building the habit of no matter where the idea is, no matter where the intuition is coming from, that's you know, we're never really gonna be able to answer that question. But just getting in the routine of being able to channel it into action, channel it into immediate action with small experience, don't put too much emphasis on the getting started, just get started, take action. And then over time you will be preparing yourself, right? Building experiences, trying all these things. through taking action consistently, which then it sounds like will almost increase the surface area of these realizations or these insights. Like your example example with Isaac Newton, right? If Isaac Newton hadn't done all of the work that he had done leading up to the moment of the tree falling, he never would have had that insight that came from it. So this action and getting in this consistent routine of doing so increases the surface area for these insights to be able to land.

speaker-0: Absolutely. And one of the things I like to almost prescribe is reserve a small amount of time in your day or in your week where you're testing out random things, right? Yeah. Whatever curiosity that was sparked during the week or during the day, you might keep a log of it and then carve out some time to act on it. Even if it's random, maybe some of them will be useless in the end, but not in vain because they've prepared you. to really receive the main guidance, right? whenever that comes, or or will kip you slowly in one way or another and guide you that way. So carve out some time regularly to test your ideas, your curiosities and and really act on these things, however random that may that they may seem.

speaker-1: Yeah. I can't imagine that any action like that would be useless in any way, right? Because it's all it's every single rep, every single action that you take in doing that is just another rep of you practicing, listening to your intuition and then taking immediate action. Right. And just building that muscle. Even if the rep is nothing, then just a rep of practicing that, like putting that practice into action, it's still super valuable. Even if the thing that you do maybe doesn't lead to anything else, it's another act another act of you channeling that intuition into some action, which is amazing. Yeah,

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: exactly. Yeah. And as I'm trying to listen to our conversation from another person's perspective, from the listener, like I'm thinking, okay, if I was listening to this conversation and I'm wanting to take action on what we're talking about, right? Like, okay, listen to my intuition, just have this gut instinct, this gut feeling, and then just go and act on it. It feels like if I'm gonna go do something that I've never done before, right? Or feel do something that feels really uncomfortable. I feel like like the idea of imposter syndrome is really just gonna like well up. Right. Well up a lot. It's like, who am I to, you know, go paint something? Like I don't know anything about painting, right? Is that do you feel like the imposter syndrome is something that Like almost a symptom of the rational, logical mind trying to kind of invade the space. Or like where do you think imposter syndrome or not where does it come from, but like is that something that you think people will run into when they try and embark on this journey? And then how do you kind of overcome that idea of of imposter syndrome?

speaker-0: That's a really good and relevant question because I myself, when I was I wrote my book and I felt great about everything I wrote. Okay. But when time came to hit the publish button, I was overwhelmed with self-doubt, right? And I was thinking like, do I got do I have to should I go read this one more time? Should I modify this part? Is this good enough? Should I delay the the publishing date and That's when I taught myself and said, all right, this is just self-doubt. It's imp it's a version of imposter syndrome, right? And usually it's important to appreciate that imposter syndrome or self-doubt, it comes or it's it's a function of your self-image, right? There is something lacking in how you see yourself, why you might not feel like your product is worthy or you're worthy or you're capable of doing that. Day, right? so it's not an actual lack of capability, like it wasn't because my book was bad that I thought it. Usually when self-doubt comes into your life like suddenly like that, it is usually just a function of your self-image. So it's not how others are receiving it. It's just what you think you're capable of. So that's the limiting factor. It's your self-image, and that's what's limiting you from appreciating what you've done or what you're about to do or your capability, right? So that's one aspect. Once you realize that it's just a function of your self-image, you kind of let go of the pressure of of thinking that it's real because it's it's not as real as as your self-image wants you to believe. And the other thing is whenever you are putting yourself out there in any way, your idea publishing something or going to an event, right? that that hunch that you had You're always putting yourself in front of somebody and you're making yourself a little vulnerable, which again is feels like a threat to your self-image in some way. And that's why it tries to protect you from doing those things or test testing those ideas. So a couple things to remember is people aren't thinking about you as much as you like to think they are, right? Even if you go out there and screw up a presentation, release a bad blog post, a bad book, whatever, right? I think it's important to appreciate the fact that if you screw up in that one audience, right, sure, it may feel like the world is you know, ending and I've screwed up and everyone is gonna be just have a have an image of me now. The thing is, once they leave, they have their own happening lives and their own priorities that will take over. They'll forget about that, right? So it's It's only a big sort of screw up in your head. And if you make it so, then it's going to only limit your next action. Right. So people aren't thinking about you as much as you like to think they are. That's one thing. And the other thing is, is the self image thing that I've just talked about, right? It's it's mostly within your own opinion of yourself that's lacking, and it's not necessarily someone else's opinion of you that's keeping you from doing that thing.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Imposter syndrome, self-doubt is a product of self image. That's beautifully said. We haven't had we've explored that idea in a few other conversations, but I haven't heard it put so eloquently like that hit me like a ton of bricks. It's like, wow. Okay. So this idea of just self-doubt, imposter syndrome is purely a result of my own self image, how I see myself. And it's one of those things that if you just can be aware of it, see feel the feeling, kind of take it up, hold it up to the light, and then just like look at it, it's like Okay, this is completely not legitimate. And it's just again a product of my own self image just getting in the way of me going and taking this action. Yeah, well said. So we'd love to finish our conversation here today with an exploration in something that you mentioned earlier in our conversation about these ideas of obstacles. Right. So we spent a ton of time talking about how to explore the inclination, kind of where that comes from, those curiosities, that intuition. But I think a big big piece of your work is this idea of obstacles and how these recurring patterns of things that you struggle with can be another point of focus for you in that reckless beginning of just taking action. So when you say obstacles, I guess let's take a little bit let's start by just defining, I guess, what you mean by those by those obstacles.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's just like recurring challenges in your life, right? If it is if there's patterns of the same place where you get stuck in, whether it's the same sort of scenario that plays out in your relationships, the same sort of block that you have in your career every time you start a new job, you work up to a certain point. And when it comes to that one thing that you have to do, you always that's where you kind of, you know, shy. shy off a little bit and you kind of stall or plateau because of that one challenge. So it's recurring challenges, recurring blocks that are keeping you from breaking through a plateau. So those are the main sort of obstacles that I'm talking about. recurring patterns of these sort of things.

speaker-1: Yeah. And I think anybody that listens to you explain that can definitely recognize a few of those obstacles in their own life. So then those obstacles then become the core points of focus for like, okay, like this is where I should be working on making the most improvement. Right. There's a whole idea of, hey, don't worry about your weaknesses, just double down on your strengths. But I it sounds like you're saying that These obstacles are the things that you should maybe dig into a little bit more, explore and kind of find a way through, be a little bit more intentional about finding a way through. Is that right?

speaker-0: That's right. Yeah, that that's just one one aspect where you can look at, right? When you're making a a list of like what to do next, obstacles and inclinations, like we talked about, obstacles is a good one because usually it's somehow emotionally charged, like I said, is means you are somehow motivated to do something about it or you're frustrated by it, or whatever sort of emotion that is linked to it, it is emotionally charged. So there's some drive to to solve that obstacle, to finally break through that plateau, whatever it may be. Right. So yeah, exactly. That's you're either trying to solve a challenge that you've been having or you're trying to lean into an inclination or curiosity.

speaker-1: Yeah. And I could see how, you know, attack and those obstacle attacking might be a strong word, but just like pushing through and breaking through those obstacles that have been holding you back could one take you to, you know, the next level. and then also just build so much confidence, right? Just build so much confidence, which will then fuel, you know, the confidence that you need to then follow those inclinations, right? Follow that intuition, right? Confidence I could see being a big part of that because again, we talked about that imposter syndrome, the thing that could or self doubt being the thing that could get in the way. of you taking action on these feelings that you have would be your self-image, right? So if you can build up the confidence by kind of breaking through those obstacles that you've been struggling with, yeah, that can build the confidence, which will allow you to further pursue your own inclinations, which I think is a really interesting idea. So that's right. Last, last question here, before we get to like the final recurring question. But is the path of Overcoming the obstacles that have been hindering you, kind of flagging you for a while, similar to the idea of pursuing those inclinations, your intuition, is it just like reckless beginnings just trying, or is there anything different about what you advise for how to break through those obstacles?

speaker-0: Yeah, so one was the the concept we talked about where you carve out time to experiment doing random things, right? You you have almost a system of regularly channeling or acting on intuition so that you build not only your own confidence in your intuition and being able to to read the hunches more effectively over time, but also to channel to give more surface area, like you said. That's a great way to put it, right? you have more surface area, more more times when you you are allowing the intuition to flow through you, right? But one other thing I always like to mention when I say things like these obstacles, inclinations, you know, that's kind of where you want to be looking for your first step is two things. One is your obstacles in your life, the challenges that you've had in the past or they're recurring in your life, or the inclinations that you have, like, you know, just that thing you're just interested in because you're curious about it, you like it, you don't really have an explanation for. These things aren't random. They are a product of your entire life journey so far, right? So Everything you have experienced in your life, everything you have thought, every single neuron that has fired in a certain sequence in your life, that very specific life journey has brought you to the point where you feel inclined to do this thing or you notice this obstacle in your way, right? So you have been prepared to have this gut feeling. So it's not just a random gut feeling. It is a product of everything you've experienced in your life. So maybe that sort of way of thinking helps you to put a little more weight on it and make it feel like it is for you to take and take action on, right? Because it is you you've been literally preparing for it your whole life to receive this this insight. Right. So I like to point out the fact that it isn't random. It only seems random because there's no way you can compute in some way or calculate what kind of hunch you will have, because there's just so many factors that have kind of gone on in building the journey that you've had, right? Things that you consciously know and things that you subconsciously have seen or heard or experienced, right? All those things sort of bring you to this moment where you have this gut feeling. So it's not a random hunch, although we We use the word random sometimes because to our logical mind it's random, right? So I like to say the key to eternity is in the present moment, right? So the key to the your entire future is is in right now. And that's why I also almost prescribe to build a practice of presence in your life, because like we talked about earlier. Oftentimes you will notice a pattern that your intuition, these insights come to you when you're contemplative or silent or bored, right? So that's another practice that I also recommend is apart from the one where you're testing random curiosities regularly, you have a some some practice where you you are deliberately silent, deliberately bored, not stimulated by your phone or some screen or some activity, right? Or deliberately just sitting there being present. If you're just sitting in your backyard with a cup of coffee and you're doing nothing else, right? And just like looking around, truly being present. That practice of presence is a really potent way to again allow the intuition, allow the ideas, the insights to to come to you.

speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah. And in my own anecdotal experience I've found that more and more as I've been trying to be more intentional about carving out more space for silence in my life. It's a tough battle, right? Because I've spent twenty six years kind of inundating myself and, you know, doing everything I can to I don't know, just have something playing. I just being engaged, right? Just like constantly being engaged. so it's it's tough. It's like a tough routine habit, like new thing to build. But Yeah, just finishing that idea of the of obstacles, right? I think Ryan Holiday has this idea of the obstacle is the way. And the way that I interpreted that idea is that, you know, the things that are standing in your way, what stands in your way becomes the way, right? Marcus Aurelis's quote, right? Whatever is getting in the way of you trying to get to whatever it is that's that you want next, that's the way. That's the thing you have to go through, right? Those obstacles are the signal of what you should focus on and push through next, right? By s by overcoming, by solving that obstacle, that is the key. for what's going to move you forward. So I love that. Mitash, thank you so much for the time. I have one final question for you. It's a recurring question I ask every guest. But before we get to that, how can people find you?

speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. selfworth.ca is my website. that's where you can find everything about me, my book, what it's about, where you can buy it, and also my social media links like Instagram and Twitter, where I usually update daily or you know a couple of days. And so everything of how to reach me can be found on my website, selfworth.ca.

speaker-1: Amazing. We'll have the link to that in the description. And if any part of our conversation today resonated with you, go check out more of Mitesh's content. It's all in the same vein as you would imagine. it's great stuff. It's definitely a good follow. so go check out Mitesh's work link in the description. So Mitesh, my final question for you is a recurring question I ask every guest. If you had a giant billboard that everyone in the world could see for ten seconds, like one message to the world, what would that billboard say and why?

speaker-0: Start small, start somewhere, anywhere, but most importantly, start now. That's what I'd put up on there.

speaker-1: That's great. Yeah. Start now with like a big underlined bold italicized for sure. Yeah, I love it. Right. Mitesh, thank you so much for your time.

speaker-0: My pleasure. Thanks for having me and

speaker-1: Thank you for listening. My main takeaways from the conversation that I had with Matesh are twofold. First, when he made the point that imposter syndrome and self-doubt are a self-image problem, that hit pretty close to home. It's solving or overcoming imposter syndrome and self-doubt isn't going to be something that happens by solving some external thing or external achievement, right? It's going to be built on the back of internal work and improving the way that I see myself, you know. Like obviously something that I'm learning right now is trying to see myself the way that God sees me and seeing others the way that God sees us, which I know isn't super clear, but the point being that self-doubt and imposter syndrome are a self-image problem. And the other idea that really resonated me with me from this conversation with Matesh is just intuition, right? This idea of what is intuition and how can you hear it and How can you find it, right? So we all have an intuition, right? And we can let maybe call it like the gut feeling, right? But intuition grows when we take action on it, right? When you have an intuitive feeling or a sense of trying something, an intuitive desire to go attempt something. And when you follow through and take action on just experimenting it, right? The reckless beginnings idea that Mitesh talked about, you can actually grow. you know, the strength of your intuition, if that makes sense, your ability to hear it and recognize it. And you can almost like tune tune your ability to to tap into your intuition, which sounds super powerful. But if you want to get connected with Matesh Johnny, you can find his links in the description of this episode, is including the link to check out his book, The Process, The Six Mechanics of Achievement. And if you're a coach, an author, or you run a course and you want more of your clients to apply your ideas and engage with what you teach. I put a free free resource in the description that you will help you build more execution support in your program and lead to more clients getting better results. Thank you all very much. I'll see you in the next one.