Alicia: Welcome to Latent Content, a podcast where we analyze film using Lacanian psychoanalysis. In our second episode, Ezra and I will be analyzing the 2026 horror film Obsession. Enjoy. Hi Yesra, it's nice to see you. Ezra: Nice to see you. Nice. Now you you recommended the film to me to Alicia: huh, did I? Ezra: What what struck you about it initially? Alicia: that's I guess I don't remember I d I remember saying to you that it was very, very good. I I didn't realize that you well, had you seen it before I recommended it to you? Ezra: It was on the radar. I'd seen it. I'd hadn't seen it, but I was aware of its existence on the Sunday, which was a couple of days beforehand. I thought, it could be interesting. But yeah, with then it started to build momentum. So that I think my awareness was just as it was starting to kind of enter zeitgeist. Alicia: Okay, okay. Well, I'll say that summer in I was living in Louisiana. I was living in New Orleans and summer in that area of the world is very, very hot. There's really not a lot to do because it's so hot. And so one of the only things to do is going to the movie theater. And during summer a lot of scary movies were out. And so I just I think I'd seen Backrooms First and then I saw Obsession and I just I thought it was incredible. It's a very, very good film. It's very tight script. one of the few really good examples of of just extremely good filmmaking in this genre. Not that not that there are not very good examples of that in horror, but Course is such a populated genre and sometimes scripts are not very tight. And to me this seemed like just a such a tight script. It was so good. So then I guess I I you know was very exuberant about it and then sent you an message about it. Ezra: It is and I think, you know, perhaps we were to foreground a little bit with our kind of interest in Lacan and Lukanian theory. This film, mm, well what what a kind of exemplar of well I suppose this is what we'll be we'll be getting into and talking about, but I suppose one of the things that's I really saw when I first saw this film was what a great illustration of the collapse of the fantasy and Alicia: Mm. Ezra: kind of exploration around lack and desire. Alicia: Hm, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of Lacanian things to explore in this film for sure. Yes. Ezra: And it it's a nice inversion of of many of the other old horror tropes. I think there's there's a lot to unpack with it as to why it's so popular and yeah, wha how how it registers. I and 'cause I think s people may not even understand where why it's hitting them in quite that way, why it is so uncanny and Alicia: Yeah. That's the correct expression. I I actually couldn't bring myself to watch it a second time to do this episode. I feel like I've memorized it. I'm sure that I've left out, you know, sort of some things in in my memory of it, but it's just sort of seared into my mind. So I and I don't yeah, I don't know that I'm brave enough to to rewatch it. Yeah. Ezra: That's right. Isabelle would have to cover her ears. Alicia: Fair. Isabella's my cat. Yeah, she doesn't deserve that. Come on. Ezra: It's one of the things I I've noticed with the film is how it does pay a little bit of homage to some of those earlier horror thriller femme for tell evil woman films. There's a a Alicia: Mm. Ezra: film called The War of the Roses with Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner where she feeds him his dog, but it's in the form of pate. So he's having a lovely crater as she reveals that the it's the dog. So you think. Alicia: Wow, that that sounds sorry, I was just gonna say that that sounds right out of a Greek myth. Ezra: Yeah, yeah, very much so. You lift the c the clutch and and there's the son or or your dog or cat, whatever the case may be. Alicia: And actually there there is that element of of it in in this film, right? The she feeds him hi his cat. Ezra: Yeah, she feeds him the cat for lunch. Alicia: Yeah. Ezra: So it's mmm. Maybe we could think about starting at the start of the film, z it it sets a tone for and I've heard that he revised the film and got rid of the initi initial opening scene. And what we have sets up the rest of it really quite elegantly, I think, in that the rehearsal with the waitress. Alicia: Mm-hmm. Ezra: So we're already seeing subject not subject in the waitress. Alicia: Mm, mm-hmm mm. So sort of a for foreshadowing. Ezra: I I would suggest so, yeah, I think so. Alicia: Mm. Mm. Ezra: How how would you see that? What what stood out for you with the with the opening of the film? Was there a moment that turned for you? Alicia: I think you're right in in in thinking that that is sort of the film contained in a nutshell. there's there's many themes there that of course get expanded on and developed in the in the rest of the film, such as the sort of n hmm I was gonna use sort of a pop psychology term that everybody uses these these days, but I mean it in the sort of more technical sense, which is the the narcissism of the scene, where it's really all about him and there's no th there's no other, right? and so the technical term would be more like the imaginary is is totally overbearing. and but I think that what's interesting here is that it it doesn't actually pan out for him, right? Like he can't actually turn this waitress into the object of his desire. And so that's where this in in the the development of the plot, this little object, this strange object comes in to actually sort of make that change for him. Right? Ezra: That's it. That's I maybe we should preface the film briefly and say that there is a couple, he has a desire for Nikki, there's an intervention with a magic object that grants his kind of quote-unquote wish. And maybe that's part of the central question of the film, of that that idea of the wish and what we want and when we get what we want and why we think we want what we want. Alicia: Yes. So no, Ezra: It's really that was a bit conflict. Alicia: I do I mean, I do agree with you, of course, but see I read it a little bit differently. And or at least I read the primacy of the let's say the the meaning of the film a little bit differently than the f sort of failure of the fantasy to remain a fantasy. Ezra: Okay. Alicia: so my take is a little bit just sort of a little bit more oblique than that. so the like the emphasis of what I was thinking about is a little more is a little different than that. But Why don't we go through that first? So why don't you tell me about what that is? Like what does it mean that the the film sort of shows us that there is a f a failure of being able to maintain the fantasy in the realm of fantasy? A disillusionment. Ezra: maintain it in the realm of fantasy. Okay, let's see what I can do here. If I'm thinking about the first moment that was really quite uncanny to me is post the One Wish Willow. And if we were thinking about Nikki beforehand, that she kind of is the cause of desire. Not necessarily, I don't know if it's object pity R, but there's something circulating around her. Once this falls away, it's terrifying. maybe what I was trying to say is that that I ideal when it's encountered and thinking maybe in a little bit more contemporary around some of the discourse of let's say male loneliness, people have sort of alluded to the idea of the incel within within that film, and the presentation of the encounter with with another being, but devoid of subjectivity. been horrifying, how how that might extend through the modern dating discourse, apps, these sorts of things, or encountering someone outside of the room or the body. And whether this w works as a kind of metaphor for that also. But it's horrible. It's like yeah, the Alicia: Let me ask you can I can I ask you some clarifying questions? Ezra: Yeah, yes, please please do. Alicia: So encountering the person outs did you say outside of the room or the body? Ezra: No, in in the room or the or the body. Alicia: Or in okay, so what does that do? Is that the moment of the void like encountering sort of the void of subjectivity, I think is the way you put it? Ezra: Yes, yeah, the w what was Khan say, the chavois, the what what do you want from me isn't called into question in quite the same way when mediated through some of those other things, I wonder. Alicia: Right. yeah, so I agree that the film is very much is sort of interrogating the Absolute anxiety that comes along with the confrontation or the even the potential confrontation with that point, right? With that point of the other's subjectivity. Andor, you know, in the in the sort of equivalence that you're making with the other's desire. and I think that's even that's even probably a little bit scarier than. the encounter with the other subjectivity. Because the a person's subjectivity, though predicated on desire, and here I'm not I'm not being fully Lacanian. Here I'm sort of trying to take a little bit more of like a a position on maybe even a d a defensive position vis-a-vis the ego, right? Like in the sense of Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: A person's subjectivity predicated on their on their right, right, to say yes. Right? Ezra: Mm, mm. Alicia: Also, of course, the the other way of of putting that is on predicate a person's subjectivity predicated on their right to say no, which are not the same thing, right? But I think that the question of For me, I think that this this film really is very much a question of consent, right? It's interrogating the the position of consent and what that does to what the negation of that does to a subject and to Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: the person who's negating that right. Ezra: Mm. Alicia: but so then let me just sort of say here that I think that our difference in approach here. Is very much to do with the lack of the sexual rapport, right? Like I think that we're both approaching this. Like we're it's as much as we can say the same thing, and it's never gonna actually quite coincide. And that's what I think is so brilliant about this movie is that structurally Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: really does bring that out. And so what it tries to do is to make that sexual rapport exist and the catastrophes. That come out of that, right? The catastrophes Ezra: Mm. Alicia: that come out of trying to to maintain that sexual rapport. Ezra: I I think if I may, Alyssa, something that where that really sp speaks in the film is those moments when Nikki comes back to herself, those few moments where she's present again, and it's always precipitated by her seeing her reflection. So she sees her reflection in the rearview mirror. She sees it in Beer's eyes and then again she sees it in in the beer bottle. And in those fleeting moments, she returns after seeing her reflection. Alicia: Hmm. So this is these would be the moments at which the sexual rapport is sort of revealed to be i non existent, right? Ezra: Yeah, I I think it could be read that way. Yeah. What how Alicia: Mm-hmm. Ezra: what would your sort of interpretation be on those moments, the that link between her seeing this image of herself and snapping back, returning? Alicia: Yeah, yeah. I mean I I like to talk about it in terms of fantasy, which is that Bayer's fantasy is still very much operative. And she is coming against that, right? She's coming against that in in a very violent way, in the only way that she can, really, when she's sort of so constrained by this sort of magic spell that's put on her. and and it's those moments that I think are the the true horror moments of the film, the real horror of her. you know, sort of begging, you know, th I think there's a scene where she is asleep on the bed, or s Bear thinks that she's asleep on the bed. And he sorry, I just had this thought. I I'll have to come back to this, but I just had this like association. I've been thinking why Ezra: Go for it. Go. Alicia: is why is his name Bear in the film? And you know what I think it might be? I think it might be that There's b there's been this I don't know if it's come to New Zealand, but in the United States there was this whole like fad of asking women like stopping women and asking them on the streets, like, would you rather be alone in the woods with a man or with a bear? And everyone said a bear like like no, I did not want Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: to be alone in the woods with a man. So so I think that there's something perhaps there there might be a little bit of a a relationship there. And and and particularly in his own view of himself. Sorry, sorry to interrupt you, what were you gonna say? Ezra: No, I th I I think that's really worth highlighting. I one of the things came to mind for me when I saw the name Bear is that I was thinking of that kind of subcategory within homosexual culture for the big bear, the big bear guy. Alicia: can you tell me about that? I'm actually ignorant of this. Ezra: I think a I would have to check on this. but the bear would be like a masculine what w whatever that means. Now let's go back to more body type. Like a husky, larger, hairy gentleman, somewhat dominant Alicia: Okay. Ezra: within that sphere. Alicia: So in in either case, like in either interpretation, it would be sort of the opposite of what Bear himself in the film is, right? Ezra: Yes, yeah, yeah. Alicia: so that's that's really nice. And I think that that goes that's really you know, it just serves the the reading of the of the film as being, you know, his wish to be the father of the horde. Who's also just a Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: child, right? Like a golden boy. And again, here we see, you know, sort of a callback to our first episode of the What was it the death and was it the endless son or the deathless sun? The undying sun, that's what it was. That's it. Ezra: The land of the undying son. Yeah, the undying. Alicia: That's it that that that's bear, right? And and this and this wish, Ezra: Mm. Alicia: this wishbone is his is his phallus, is his way of of making that happen. So Ezra: Mm. Alicia: To return I think to the point that where I cut myself off with my own association, I I forget exactly what I was saying, but I think that what I was saying was something to do with Ezra: Rather be alone in the forest with a beer than a man. Alicia: That was the association, but I cut myself off on an actual train of thought with this association. Ezra: Okay. Alicia: and I think I was trying to go through and it and it and talk a little bit about like theoretically what the positions are. and I think in my mind I was thinking about Well, the f maintaining the fantasy and what that means and and the moments in which Nikki is able to break through. And and and I had said that a as a point of of horror, those are the those are the moments. But but furthermore, let me just add one more thing is that Ezra: Please. Alicia: I think the absolute horror is her inability to break down that fantasy. It's so operative. It's so constraining, right? It's so oppressive to her. She cannot get him to see her. She cannot get him to acknowledge her as a subject. Ha, yeah, this was it. She i I was describing this scene where she's Ezra: He refuses Alicia: On the bed. Ezra: to. Alicia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. She's on the bed. It's nighttime. He assumes that she's asleep. And he has been sort of weary of the crazy Nikki, of the sort Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: of obsessed Nikki. And he's sneaking off the bedroom. And just as he's reaching the doorway, she seem she appears to be asleep, but she's she's speaking from nowhere. It's wonderful. She's speaking from nowhere. And she says to him, I think she says something like, Please kill me And he says, Is it really so bad with me? Is it really so bad being with me? I mean talk about the depressive state. Ezra: Well, he he got his answer at the end of the film. She she answered it. Alicia: okay. In in what way t tell us? Ezra: No, when he kills himself and she comes back too and she's just like, yuck, and swipes him off her lap. But Alicia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ezra: I I think what you're highlighting is really really does stand out and maybe and we also hear that in that haunting, that awful phone call to customer services where you hear Nikki that she's there somewhere. Alicia: When sh when he's calling about the wish and seeing if it can be amend amended in some way. Ezra: Yes, yeah, there there's a part in there where you can hear Nicky screaming in the background. Alicia: yeah, at the very end, that's right. Ezra: Yeah, and he just ignores it. It's yeah. Alicia: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Okay, so so okay, so we've we've sort of started to establish the the fantasy, but I wonder if it might be helpful to talk about a little bit theoretically about what that is. Like w what are we talking about when we when we say the fantasy? Ezra: Would you like to say a little bit more on on that and I'll come back to it. Alicia: Sure. in the sort of nitty-gritty of the theory of of Lacanian psychoanalysis, the fantasy is instituted as a way to defend against the fact that there has been a castration. So when there is a castration, the what Lacan says is that the the s the dimension of the symbolic, which we talked about last time. pierces the real and this hole that's made in the real this matter that's been moved in order to make space for this whole that ends up being what's produced by this symbolic entering into the real which is a which is what castration is and that matter is called the objepetya Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: And what the fantasy is, is the subject's unconscious relation to that object that makes this sort of fictional case, this fictional solution for that castration. So the fantasy is the neurotics solution to castration. Which is, I put it in another way, how can I make this piece that's fallen out of me fit back in again? Ezra: Right. Mm. So I was thinking about some of the grosser parts in the film and pieces falling out and fitting back in again, but that might be too icky. Alicia: Maybe Ezra: Well there's the there's that particular scene where she's standing there with the all the vomit and the the blood and the shit. Think about that in terms of the reel a little bit though. Alicia: Definitely. I mean be Ezra: I Alicia: b because in the sorry in the sort outside of the context of the fantasy, so the the objepatiya doesn't just exist in fantasy, right? That's that's sort of its more tame version, right? It's it's a way to sort of constrain the horror of it. in the wild, let's put it, right? it it's always like approaching that that object Objepitia, which is also the object cause of desire, is simultaneously making the fantasy work and approaching the thing which caused it in the first place, right? Approaching the horror, approaching the cut. And so this makes this object and whatever does embody this object quite a traumatic, right? Quite a a difficult thing to to to go towards. and so in the film, I guess the question really quickly to sort of recontextualize what we're talking about would be what is the fantasy, right? And who has it? So so let's just start there. If I were to pose you to you this question, what what do you think would be your answer? Ezra: I think the fantasy in his instance is to have a love or a possession without cost, an uncastrated love. Alicia: Hm. An uncastrated and uncastrating love. Hmm Ezra: Yes, yes, yes. Alicia: mmm. Which is very nice Ezra: Actually Alicia: because mm, go ahead. Ezra: go you please, you go on. I was just thinking a little bit about the fairy tale, but if you say somet say something more about the fairy tale after that. Alicia: No, tell tell me about tell me about the fairy tale. I'll remember my point. Ezra: remember recalling that the Hansel and Gretel is this sort of really grotesque retelling of Hansel and Gretel. Alicia: Right, yes. Ezra: with the the the murder and the incest and so on. And whether this maybe highlights something of the the horror you were speaking of, of what what's underneath f both fantasy and story, it's it's a very interesting thing to do to rework a classic fairy tale like that. Alicia: It's very nice. I d I do so this is where the film structure just really becomes sort of almost perfect. I think I've only ever I only remember seeing two more films where the structure of the film was so tight and so brilliant that I just you know, it I have you know, I have a little bit of a a list with now three names on it. But and so this is one of them. But so yes, on the one hand it w what's operative is is Bear's fantasy of having this love that will sort of complete him, right? And and of course a love that not only will complete him, but that will sort of re-uh reflect to him what he'd like to be seen as. Ezra: Yes, and this is monstrous. Maybe maybe we should have opened with this question, 'cause I think it's the big question, who's the monster in the film? Alicia: I mean that's where my sort of different take comes in, right? Like my take is abs one hundred percent there's never a chance or a different op opinion in my mind when I was watching this that it's him. It's very much him, right? but Ezra: It's bear. Hundred percent. Alicia: but but let's go back into the the idea of the the fairy tale, right? This is actually Nikki, but sort of obsess sh obsessed Nikki, under magical spell Nikki. Very What so great about that? Ezra: Consciousness. Alicia: Let me ask you about this in in in a second. Let me finish my point and then let me ask you about this. But what's great about her speech there, her poem that she wrote about the the Hansel and Gretel retelling, that's so grotesque, is that this is sort of the other side of the of the fantasy. That's sort of the Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: rotting side of the fantasy. That's the real. And that's what happens Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: when the when there is such a thing as the as the sexual relation, right? It's like very bad things happen. And not just to Nikki, clearly, very much to bear ver you know, to to everybody else in the film. It's like the the the universe is sort of collapsing in on it on itself. so so let's go back to this thought that you had unconscious Nikki, what what does that mean? Ezra: that really wasn't fully formed. It it s sounded worse when it came out. I don't think it actually applies in that instance. That's n I don't think it's a a question of her unconscious emerging in in the telling of that poem. But maybe it's kind of if if we're thinking about I guess the horror of it, the real that you were just speaking of, we often think of as something that we find expressed. in analysis. It's it's something produced out of the unconscious when when we often hear this. But her state of possession I'm not sure is is completely analogous to this. Alicia: It's it's nice because the way that I read it was that it's sort of the the the that is the horror to bear, right? And and that's that's what he doesn't understand that making the sexual relation possible, forcing it to happen, the consequence of that. is precisely a thing he does not want, right? Because what he wants by forcing the the sexual relation is to not be castrated. Well to not be castrated Ezra: Yes. Alicia: is that is what Nikki was talking about. It's this horrible, you Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: know, like horrible world that's disgusting Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: and insa in incest filled and and and Ezra: It's a nightmare realm. Alicia: a nightmare realm. Yes, exactly. Yes. Ezra: Yeah, I I think you're this is what the film does so well. There there are these those moments that are just brilliant. I mean it's as shocking as that retelling is and disgusting. Wow, does it stay with you? Does it set a tone? I s looking around the cinema as well, it's one of the I haven't seen people look as uncomfortable in a film since Antichrist. Alicia: Okay, that's an interesting that's very nice. I like that. Maybe we should do that film. Ezra: I've seen it once, once was enough. I can maybe I could re-watch it, but if you're talking about castration, Jesus Christ those fucking rough shears. Horrible little fox. Chaos reigns. Alicia: you're talking of course, you're talking about Lars Montrier. Uh-huh, Ezra: Yeah, yeah. Alicia: okay. I actually for a second thought, you know, the the imagery of the rotting flesh and all these things reminded me of when you said Antichrist, I actually thought of I think it was Mel Gibson's rendition of the crucifix crucifixion of Christ. Passion of Ezra: Passion of the Christ. Alicia: the Christ. That's the one. And that's what I was envisioning. Like the nails driving into his feet and Just so but yes, no the Larson trier. Ezra: Yeah, that was another instance of kind of torture porn. Alicia: Mm. Mm-hmm. And I and and I wonder if if Obsession has torture porn. this is actually a really good question and it'll probably open up into my take of the film. Like what do you do you think that this film falls into torture porn category? Ezra: Th yeah, there's elements of it, but it's more than that. So I guess it's gonna think about a simple conceptualisation, yeah, there's torture porn in there, I would think of that. And we hear it in that phone call. Nikki is tortured. It isn't Yes, there's yeah, there's torture porn. Alicia: Hmm. It's interesting because he doesn't really seem to he so he hears it, but he I don't know that he let's say Ezra: He doesn't give a fuck. Alicia: no, I I agree with that, but I I don't know that he enjoys it either. Like I don't that and that's where my like this Ezra: Okay. Okay. Alicia: is the opening to my thesis, right? So so my reading, if you're okay with going into that, Ezra: Please, please. Alicia: so so Okay, so in for my dissertation, I wrote I wrote a dissertation on the basically the ontology of the phenomenon of rape. And I used Lacanian psychoanalytic theory in order to talk about that dimension of of rape. But out of that thesis, totally unplanned, came out this hypothesis of the perpetrator. Ezra: Okay. Alicia: And the So the hypothesis is that in Lacanian psychoanalysis, we have a very clear sort of bad guy, right? Like we have a very clear structure for like a a sort of even a cartoonish villain, right? Like a the extreme of evil is is would be would be sort of indexed to this structure called perversion. And so Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: you know, in in normal sort of in in normal parlance. pervert is sort of overused to what it means in psychoanalytic theory, but nonetheless, up to you know, up to the research that I did, I have I have not heard of another answer to how would categorize the perpetrators of rape, besides thinking about it from the position of perversion. Now the problem with the position of perversion, in order to answer for for the kinds of perpetrators of rape that we see today, is that the perverse perverse structure, perverse individuals, strictly speaking, would get off on that pain. Like in this not in not in like mm, let's say a sadistic way, though it is of course very sadistic, but in the in the in the way that that pain actually is evidence for the extinguishing of desire, right? And so Ezra: Could you maybe, sorry Alisa, just say a little bit about that relation, what it is for the pervert to see the pain in the other, why why that's important. Alicia: Right, so pain, let's say let's let's put it in in the in the context of jouissance. So suffering. Let's talk about suffering. Seeing the Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: other suffer means that the other's experiencing jouissance. And when there is jouissance, jouissance is the defense against desire. And so This is precisely why people come to psychoanalysis because there's too much resonance. There's too much of something, right? There the Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: whatever suffering is they're they're undergoing is too much. We all suffer to some degree, and you can't actually ever get rid of suffering. you can't ever get rid of a church sens. It's just no ma you know, there is no cure, right? But you can lessen but Ezra: There is no QA. Alicia: you can lessen suffering in the way that that we deal with it in in clinical psychoanalysis is to uncover desire because desire is sort of the other side of the coin of of Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: of jouissance it's a defense against jouissance so desire is is as close to the cure as you're gonna get when it comes to the clinic so a pervert what a pervert wants a pervert wants to extinguish desire in order for to sort of release that jouissance. And so in in doing that, the preferred is doing two things. And this is obviously coming straight out of one of Lacan's écrit, Contave Exad, which is absolutely brilliant. Everyone needs to read this at least five times. So everyone has homework. Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: it's really brilliant. It's very, very beautiful text. Ezra: Least five times. Alicia: At least, yeah, of course. I mean, really as a minimum. So but but basically one of the one of the greatest points of this of conceptualizing perversion in this in this ecri is that the what the pervert is doing is that he's actually seeking to to not not to transgress for transgression's sake, which is actually what the neurotic does, but he's actually Attempting to transgress in order to make the big other, which is the sort of the transgression is is done like in the dimension of the symbolic, right? Which is the position of the big other. So tr so he's transgressing not to get rid of the big other, but in order to make the big other appear, right? Ezra: Yes. Alicia: That's the point. And so what's so brilliant about this film. And this is what I would say is the paradigmatic portrait of what I have come to Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: call an ordinary pervert, because there is a distinction between a perpetrator who is a pervert and a perpetrator who doesn't actually try to do that, right? There's a majority, Ezra: Mm, mm. Alicia: and I would say the majority of perpetrators today are actually trying to do What what they're trying to do in order to hide away from the symbolic, in order to not have the symbolic actually be present, in order to not have this castrative force at all, in order to hide away from it. And so Bear in this movie, everything he does is as a way to hide away from to find little pockets, right? To move himself away from the symbolic. Ezra: Hmm To subvert Alicia: So Ezra: it with the one wish will owe. Alicia: Well, the the term that I would use is to suspend it. Ezra: To suspend it. Mm. Alicia: So Ezra: And Alicia: so going back to the screams that he hears in the recording of or in the in the phone call, the fact that he's able to hear them and recognize that they're there, but then not do anything about that and sort of just dismiss them, this is very much a perverse position, right? This is what we call disavow. On Ezra: Yes. Alicia: se biomika mem. We we know very well and yet. But he's not actually going towards Nikki's pain in order to make her feel more pain. Right? He's not actually trying to give her her obje petiya. This is what makes the position of the pervert so much more ethical in terms of Lacanian psychoanalysis, right? Than an ordinary pervert pervert. Because the pervert always goes towards the desire of the other. Always. He has to identify the other as a subject in order to perpetrate these terrible, terrible things. Right? I mean, really n now we're talking in the realm of like serial killers and serial rapists, but not of the degree of like Bill Crosby or or whatever. I mean like you know, sort of Ezra: Cross. Alicia: the famous sorry, did I say that wrong? Crosby. Wasn't it Crosby? Cosby, yes. Ezra: Cosby, Bill Cosby, the gate rape. Alicia: Yes, Ezra: Yep. Alicia: exactly, exactly, yes. Mm-hmm. Ezra: Yeah, I think one way think and you tell me if th there's another way sort of describing it. Really the distillations, part of the the pleasure for the pervert is seeing the pain, the the juices and the squeeze. Alicia: Yes, though I I think that we need to qualify that just a little bit by saying that hmm, this is tricky because it's not that it's so it's not that it's satisfying something in him. It's that it's satisfying something for the victim. Ezra: Elicit something in yes. Alicia: That's what it and that's where it there's a total and complete recognition of the victim as subject, which is precisely the opposite of what happens with Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: Bear. Ezra: That's it. It it it is precisely the opposite. Maybe we see something of that at the very end where well, after a series of crimes, however you might sort of think about them with bear, he feels guilty. He shoots himself. And this is the thing that breaks the quote unquote spell. Alicia: Well, do you so I think the f what I remember in the end, he tr I don't I don't even remember he tries to shoot himself, but I think he tries to take some pills, right? And yeah. Ezra: That's right. Yeah, yeah, sorry, he takes the the oxycodons. Alicia: But then so he takes them, yes. But then he tries to throw them back up. And then he only Ezra: Ha ha ha. Alicia: doesn't succeed by doing that because Nikki finds the one wish willow, the the one wish willow Nikki finds the one wish willow and then makes a wish the bear will be as equally in love with her as she's in love with him. Right? And so he even in the end, Ezra: Mmm. I'm gonna. Alicia: like this is why why this is such a good good film, like he Ezra: That's really good. I'd forgotten that part of it. Alicia: Yeah, he just he never actually abandons this position, ever. Ezra: Yeah, you're right. Alicia: It's great. And and and the fact that like Curry Baker puts him as the protagonist, I think is really interesting. So because he's not just normally the way that you know, sort of in a very stupid way I tend to think about films is that or e you know, literature is that the protagonist is you. Like you're going through the through the story and the author's making you Feel things the way that he's making the protagonist as the protagonist experiences things. And so Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: what's so good about this is that it's very, I think it's very, I can't think of another instance, maybe you can, where the author makes the protagonist the bad guy, but not like so repulsive that you want to put down the book, right? Or put down or walk out of the film. Like, like you know, you couldn't make a film starring Hitler, right? And and then be like, sort of empathize. Ezra: The villain has to have some charisma. Alicia: Mm, is it just charisma or or is it something else, right? Like is it Ezra: Yeah, I c charisma's not quite the right word, yeah. Alicia: Well, s some point of identification, let's put it like that, right? Like the the villain can't be so outrageously like, you know, other Ezra: Caricature. Alicia: exactly, exactly. and so I I say Hitler because Hitler has become a caricature, you know, like there's no and it's and it's like I mean, he he he did that himself by by committing suicide. Like there's no other account, you know, like we can't just Like he's just a caricature of a villain. And that's why it's he's so s sort of iconic and placent thought of as that way. But anyway, I think that what's so brilliant here is that there is something about Bear that's still deeply pernicious in its like identifiability. Right? Like why Ezra: Mm. Alicia: mm-hmm go ahead. Ezra: No, absolutely. And I think that's one of the things why this film is so striking. It's like, what a great date movie. Or a disastrous date movie. Alicia: Did you say what a great date movie? Ezra: Yeah, or a disastrous state movie. Alicia: Wait, okay, so in what in what way is it a gre is it a great date movie? Please enlighten me. Ezra: W or a bad well, it's it's confronting. It would be as I said, that sort of observation of how uncomfortable people looked in the cinema. And I'm speculating there somewhat, but some appeared to be coupled out on, you know, on dates. And w what what a film like that would Alicia: I see. I Ezra: Yeah, well that might kind of generate. It's it's an interesting phenomena to encounter a film like that, I think. Alicia: I think okay, hang on. Cause I think that if I'm if I'm hearing you correctly, I think that the dimension that you're Sort of pointing to that I think we absolutely have to talk about before the end of this episode is the romantic element of it. Because there absolutely is a romantic element of it, right? That's what's so subversive about it, which is Ezra: Hmm. Alicia: the the the the sort of scenario where you do make this wish that everyone wants. Everyone wants to find their person, right? Everyone wants to find. the love of their life, everyone wants to be paired off, right? And and and and find the the one person who let's say fulfill them, make them whole, which is precisely what the fantasy is. Ezra: All of the cliches, the complete me, all of these things and yes. Alicia: Of course, but but it's also the reason why those types of stories are so appealing to us, because that is literally the structure of our fantasies. Right? Ezra: Ha ha ha. Alicia: And so it's it's in a way using that against us, weaponizing that against us. Ezra: Absolutely. Alicia: And what's so nice about it, what I recall very well, and I really I I thought this was even just like cherry on top of the cake. Is that in the end it's very much a Romeo and Juliet story, you know? It's very much, I Ezra: It's amazing. Alicia: mean, we in the bubble that he creates underneath like the the the you know, if you're willing this is what it is. If you as the audience member are willing to disavow the fact that this the other person's subjectivity is being done away with, then what you get is the perfect Romeo and Juliet. This is your romance. Ezra: Mm. Alicia: You know, this is your, you know, like romance for the ages. This is your Roman Juliet. It's it's really it's really good. It's really very, very smart. Ezra: It's very so it's like do you want romance? This is romance, and we're gonna give it to you. And explicitly, I I'm thinking of also some of those so hardcore French New Wave films of the early kind of 2000s, which I think builds on a little bit of Arigora's work and the male guys, like, you wanna see the body? We'll show you the body. This is it. Have a look. Now see what you think. Is this sexy? Is this romantic? Alicia: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it and then in the end, what I thought also was very you know, sort of worthwhile talking about bringing up is that when she so okay, so at the very end, she's still under the spell because Bear doesn't manage to kill himself. And so right before he throws up the the pills that he took. She makes a wish, right? And so he she stops him from from taking the pills. Or sorry, she stops him from throwing up the pills. And so for one brief second we have this ro this beautiful romance, right? This this and even the music's great, right? It's swelling music. They see each other for the first like like they were seeing each other from the first time. You know, it's like everything's as it should be Ezra: You need swirling. Alicia: exactly. He and then he dies and then she starts Crying as if the love of her life has just died, right? Like it's really a hysterical kind of crying, which is apropos of that whole you know, of of that whole plot. But then a few minutes after that, her spell is done away with and she realizes that that he's dead on her lap and she pushes him off of her, like you said, with disgust, but the crying remains exactly in the same pitch and tone. Right, the hysteria is exactly the same as it was when she lost Ezra: Okay. Alicia: her the love of her life, as when realizing, my gosh, this MF, excuse me, because I'm trying to be a little bit clean language for our for our listeners, but maybe I'll just say this motherfucker raped me, you know, like Ezra: Just yeah. Alicia: and and over and over again, right? And so and and so that level of hysteria is exactly the same pitch as the first level of hysteria. Mini of course just collapsing everything at every level. Ezra: Mm, that's a really interesting observation. It's really and I think that ties in, that's similar to something you were talking about with the Hansel and Gretel poem, how the w how we see these these well, I shouldn't say devices, but through the film that really make that point. It's it's a very cleverly done, cleverly done, brilliant film. Alicia: Yeah, I was just thinking that maybe the the the true horror at the end is is the collapse of two fantasies, right? The the collapse of the possibility of the sexual relation vis a vis like a romantic relationship. No no other will fill your hole. Kind of, right? Sex is impossible. That is actually what lack of a sexual relation means, right? Ezra: That could be that should be the tagline for the episode. No other will fill your hole. Alicia: That's great, you know. But but then wait, wait, wait, because then at the at the second level, which is that of the loss of subjectivity, or at least the the destitution of subjectivity, right? When when she realizes and she's able sort of to be freely free of the of the constraints of the wish, but realizing that all these horrible horrible things have just happened to her. Well, what is that? Ezra: Mm. Alicia: But but but honestly, exactly the same thing. Right, it's exactly the same confrontation. Just looked at saw looked at it from a different perspective, which is that there's no big other to come and stop things like that from happening. Ezra: And I suppose the h the hearing you say that it makes you wonder how what we see in some other horror films around this, they gotta stopping something happening. Even in the signifiers there, I watched possession again recently, and there's that returning motif around desire of to be under a spell. I mean, this is what we hear about love. You're you're under a spell, you're possessed, you're not yourself anymore. Alicia: Mm. When you're in love. Ezra: Yeah, th the these are the the cultural tropes, right? Alicia: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you sort of being sort of torn away from yourself in some way. which you know, yeah. There's there's a lot there's a lot to dig into with that, which is of pretty much exactly the same tenor as what we've just been talking about. with the Ezra: Mm. Alicia: with the the with the falling away of the fantasy, right? Or or with the with trying to make the sexual relation happen in this horror film, it's pretty much exactly the same as no, it's not pretty much. It's exactly the same as what happens when somebody is in love. Right? So for Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: example, have you have you ever read Uzumaki? Ezra: No, I haven't. I haven't. What how does that come Alicia: So it Ezra: to mind for you? Alicia: So it's the author is Jinju Ito, who is a Japanese manga writer, and he created this sort of anthology of stories in this volume called Uzumaki. And one of the stories is particularly interesting for this discussion because it it's it's a story of a town that is Plagued by these spirals. These spirals that form in nature, but are absolutely taking over, materially taking over their the infrastructure of their town, but also their physical bodies. So, and then there's this one anecdote in this story where it's two lovers and they sort of morph into these long snake-like versions of themselves trying to entwine themselves around the other, right? Crutch Ezra: Okay. Alicia: crushing each other to death, crushing themselves to death, trying to make this spiral shape. Right. Ezra: Hmm. Alicia: So so you see how it's a it's exactly the same thing. Like there is absolutely a a a horrendous and a horrific dimension to love and to being in love. And and I think that y you know, just sort of top off very nicely here. That the title of the film, obsession, is not it's not only very apropos because of the content of the film, it's a story about not only Bear's obsession, but of course Nikki's obsession i i in in within the f the the fantasy of this wish. but it's also very much, I think, an obsessive take on love, right? Like an obsessive like Ezra: Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Alicia: Yeah. Ezra: I I I think that's part of what I was gesturing towards with the the experience in the theatre. I was like, it's so uncomfortable and confronting for the obsessive to see that idealised version of love flipped on its head. It just makes you wanna squirm. Alicia: Very nice. Ezra: There's there's that moment where she stands up and she goes, no no no, I've been having a nice day. god. Alicia: What I loved about that is that it's sort of borderline borderline hysteric, right? Like in a sense in a very colloquial sense of the term. Borderline you know, sort of losing losing control of the situation. because we're not an extremely crazy Nikki yet, right? Like I could see I could see myself maybe not acting in that exam exact way, but very much thinking in my head in that exact same way. Were I to be in a similar Ezra: Okay. Alicia: situation, right? It's like, uh-uh, we're not we're not going there. Like we're actually having a good time. We're not doing that, okay? Yeah. So it's so it's this, you know, this author who's really I I call him I call him an author. I think he wrote I'm pretty sure he wrote the script. Hi I know he's Ezra: Yeah, I believe so. Alicia: the director, but but really the I'm just gonna go through the the script you know sort of dimension of things. He's just so very, very good. He's very good. he's almost too good. It's almost scary how good it is. Like he he's very much approaching it from an obsessive, I think, position. Because this is not a hysterics fantasy, right? It's not. This is an obsessive fantasy. Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: but but then it's also very aware. of what it is. Right. So it's not just it's it it he himself, the author himself, isn't totally immersed in the fantasy of things. It's not wish fulfillment. It's what happens if there is such a thing as wish fulfillment, which is what you were saying earlier. Ezra: Yeah, i it's the horror of getting the uncastrated wish. Alicia: Mm. Ezra: That's that's why I think that's at the start, that sort of central question in the film. W which accompanies that is who's the monster? And it's it's Bear. Alicia: I wonder I wonder if you think like hypothetically speaking, do you think that Curry Baker is thinks of himself as a monster? Ezra: How how how are you conceptualising monster there? Alicia: Well, in the way that you were just saying that Bear is the monster, right? I wonder if it okay, maybe maybe it's little too like sort of too close. What I mean is, do you think that this is an accurate representation of the fear of being a monster for obsessionals? Ezra: Yes, very much so. Yeah. One of the best I've ever encountered. Strikingly so. Uncanny. Alicia: Fascinating. Ezra: It does as good a job as as just about anything I can think of in the film or literature. And maybe there's some recency bias. I might be a little bit of a a prisoner of the moment in that, but Alicia: Would you mind me asking you? s would you be able to articulate what the fear is? Ezra: like if it's at that moment, I I guess there's like, yeah, it's such a great fantasy to just have what you want and you can have the woman who will be in love with you and all of the things that you have in your fantasy without any responsibility or investment or castration. This is a beautiful fantasy that's sustaining obsessionals all over the world. And then when you see the w it just underlied and and broken apart so quickly and so confrontingly, it's wow, perfect. It was yeah, within minutes he was able to do that. Very, very clever. Alicia: Yeah, but I mean, I do see what you're saying, but I think that's I think there's two levels, right? There's there's the the sort of basement label. Label, basement level, which is that so it's bear. Bear and his fantasy. And then bear and his fantasy and the and the horror of his fantasy. But then of course there's another level, which is Bear, his fantasy, the encounter with his fantasy, but then the the the whole dimension that's necessary in order for his fantasy to come true, but that he wants to disavow, right? Which is the fact that the wish willow thing that he needed to have used that in order for the fantasy to come to sort of quote unquote come true. Right. And so there's so there's it's not it's not just it's not just a story about Bear confronting his his fantasy and his and he and and the destruction of the fantasy. That would make Bear the victim. Right? So it's a story about Bear doing all of those things, but then having to at you know, sort of being incapable incapable of not confronting the fact that On the other side of that there's another person. Right? On the other side of that. He's done this to somebody else. And and that makes him the villain. Ezra: Do absolutely, that's that's why he's on and that's why think it's also not the fantasy because of the of the device, the the the one which will you say, which subjects Nikki's locked away God knows where we hear her in the car, but that understanding that of that without that lack in her his fantasy's going to collapse. So may and maybe I'm thinking a little bit of that idea of Curry Barker being the monster in terms of even in the creating of the film, he has total control over this quote unquote fantasy in in in the imaginary forum. This is of Curry Baker's making. Is i is this what we're thinking about in terms of extending that idea of The monster and control. Alicia: That's not where I was going with it, but I love that point. I think that's such a great point. let me give you a little personal anecdote. Back in my days of being very hysteric and very my symptoms just sort of ruining my life. I had this thought, because I've always been interested in theater and acting, and had this thought, Ezra: Okay. Alicia: and directing, really. I directed a play when I was in high school, and it was just like a very you know, sort of marked marking experience for me and and whatever. So so I was I I was thinking about writing a play and directing it, and then I I had this thought that whatever I did as a director, I would have to set up an ethical boundary for myself in order to allow the actors their subjectivity. Right, was like, I cannot cross over the line, whatever line I was thinking at the time, right? Like I don't think it actually holds up theoretically, but Ezra: Mm. Alicia: but in the time I was thinking, I cannot cross over the line of their own personal subjectivity, right? Into making them puppets, right? My puppets in some way. So so the fact that you say, and I think it's very, very nice point that Curry Baker is in some way sort of the film itself, right? It i it almost could be a meta commentary on film itself being Ezra: Yes. Alicia: the the sort of bubble in which it is the the this fantasy is completely preserved. Ezra: And how does the film open with with that g with the waitress acting? She's reading volumes. Alicia: Hmm. Ezra: Yeah, it's I I I think that there's something in that as well. I mean I I'd wonder a little bit with the subjectivity of actors. They're kinda willing participants and and pff wanting to to read lines and that that's a whole other question. But yeah, that's it it's a rich text and yeah. Alicia: Yeah, I mean I think that that that anecdote from my from my youth, I think, mainly just sort of talks about my own fantasy, right? that that can happen, basically. But Ezra: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Alicia: but here th in this in this like okay, so can we just sort of play around for a minute before we go? Like Ezra: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alicia: What would it mean, right? That in order to sort of to view film that way, to view film as the as the cocoon for the preservation of a fantasy, the sort of in in the way in which the wish one wish willow was the preservation for in this very specific case, Bear's fantasy that Nikki love him. Like what would that mean for film? Ezra: You say a little bit more? Alicia: I mean So I normally Ezra: For some Alicia: I normally think think tend to think of film as being a reflection of the unconscious, right? Like very much the I I'm not so Ezra: Any Alicia: sure ex sorry, go ahead. Ezra: No, no, go ahead. Yep, I'm I'm we're on the same page there, I think. Production of the unconscious. Alicia: I don't know if it's I I think it's it can be a production of the unconscious. I mean, I think that we see that in in David Lynch. I think it's the emblematic filmmaker that I would Ezra: Yes. Alicia: say is like very much I mean, even himself stated like, you just go fishing in your unconscious. And that's that's how the film gets made. Yes. But and so sort of it has similarities in that way to to dreams. Right, film has similarities to dreams in that way. And that's why I think also that you can you can analyze film psychoanalytically. Right. But but I also think, and I think that this is a sort of a carryover of of a carryover critique that could be made by the point that you brought forward about Curry Baker being sort of the ultimate sort of creator, this sort of monster creator of this self-preserved fantasy, which is the film itself, not even the content of. It but the film the fact that you're going to the movie theater and you're sitting there for two hours and you're subjected in a way to this to this you Ezra: Mm. Alicia: know sort of to his idea of you know to his idea really you're subjected to Kerry Maker's idea. I think that you could make the argument that that a cr critique could be li leveled at film being sort of misused in in that way, sort of misused as a an object that instead of of presenting you with like an avenue for desire, it's in fact presenting you with with the way to plug up your desire, right? As sort of the the objepatia of your dreams to sort of fit fit right in there and like stop you from thinking or stop you from reflecting or stop you from from Ezra: Mm. Alicia: dreaming perhaps, right? Ezra: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think I I think so what sorry, something I was thinking of then was just a d a difference in this film that maybe speaks to that. in Misery. Have have you seen Misery, the Stephen King with Kathy Bates? Alicia: I haven't seen it but I do know what it is. Ezra: Okay, but there's sort of a a little flip there where the there's the author who is the victim in misery, whereas in this film he is no, it's not quite a flip. I'd have to think a little bit more about it, but I think there's some kind of comparison with misery and an obsession into what you're saying around how Alicia: I don't know if this is what you meant, but this is I think let me just maybe fine finalize the critique. I think that the argument could be made that there's a difference between a David Lynch and a Ezra: Ron Howard. Alicia: And I'm not even what has he done? Ezra: Have enjoyed Meeting Rock Apollo thirteen and such, those those type of films. Alicia: Okay, but those I mean, I enjoyed Apollo thirteen. But I I was about to say something super commercially available that's very clearly a commodity, very clearly like, you know, in in in not really sort of meant to be art but more meant to be entertainment, right? Like maybe like Ezra: Okay. Alicia: Ha Right, or like you know, Marvel a hundred and whatever, exactly. So so and and Ezra: Yeah. Yeah. Alicia: here I'm not trying to be a pedantic and make that argument of there are some films that are and s and some films that are that are not. What I am trying to say though is that I wonder if some films really are handled as a a a commodity object, right, in the same way that let's say a product like Coca-Cola as Gizek's famous example. can be thought Ezra: Mm. Alicia: of as being that obje petia. You know, it's like, here is this here's the ob literal object of your desire. And it doesn't it doesn't actually fill you up. So here's more and here's more and here's more and here's more. Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: And then as opposed to for example, here's here's the here's what your object of desire would look like. under these conditions, which is much more of the dream like sort of presentation Ezra: Yes. Alicia: of of of a fantasy as opposed to here's a commodity object, h have have what you want, right? Ezra: And and perhaps we we're seeing that in horror films precisely because of that economy. They're cheaper to make Alicia: That's a very nice point. Ezra: and you can take the risk in a horror film. There's something distinct Alicia: That that's a that's Ezra: about the economy of them. Alicia: That's very nice. That's a very will-taking point because I I totally agree with you. And I do think that we're seeing that in in in this genre. I think another like an another film that's evidence of this is the l sort of the freedom that you have in in horror, which r is presented in the in the film, I think I forget when it came out maybe last year, weapons. Ezra: Yeah, yes. Alicia: Yeah, we see. Yeah, so so like really horror films are starting to investigate and they've always done this I think, but really sort of more openly investigate some real questions, some real social questions, right? As as as cause for horror. Ezra: And it's a perfect way to explore them. The horror. The horror. Alicia: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ezra: A a long and proud tradition in in the horror film and and literature as well, I guess, but yeah. From Texas Chainsaw Massacre to Obsession. Alicia: Mm. Maybe as a last point, I'll just add that ha are you familiar with the YouTube creator whose whose handle on YouTube is Contrapoint? Well, you should be. Ezra: Okay. Alicia: it you should be. Like get on that immediately. But so Ezra: Contra point. Alicia: Contra points, yeah. So she's s been doing YouTube videos for years and her name's Natalie Wynne and she does a lot of social sort of social commentary and she does interpretation of media, like I think s she's done books, she's done film, But it's all from a philosophical perspective. And she puts on these very intricate productions. And so the videos tend to be rather long, sometimes even reaching the three-hour mark. And these are sort of video essays with very intricate, intricate productions. And Ezra: that sounds good. Alicia: so Natalie when does these long video essay productions and in the last few years she's her her videos have reached considerable length but the last one that she put out was maybe a little over an hour and it's all about violence and horror in Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: the series of films Saw and she uses a lot of Tarantino as well and it's just very very good so I'm so happy. I just like just so happy that that whore is getting some attention from theorists because it really deserves it. It's just a a wonderful genre. Ezra: It it's a w it's one of the best. And I think part of that is as we're saying, is it has this kind of tradition of exploring things that maybe we don't see in well in in cinema with war industrial concerns. Shall we shall we leave it there for today? Alicia: Yeah, let's let's do that. Well this has been very fun. Thank you so much, Ezra. Ezra: Yeah, thank say a big thank you to to everyone for listening. I I hope it was horr as horrific for you as it was for us and we look forward to to seeing you next time. So from Ezra, bye bye. Alicia: Thank you for listening. This has been Latent Content. Join us next time for our third episode where we will be analyzing Park Chan Walk's film decision to leave. See you next time.