Alicia: Welcome to Latent Content, a podcast where we analyze film using Likini and psychoanalysis. hello, my name's Alicia and this is the first episode of a Will hopefully become a podcast where we discuss film. perhaps other cultural manifestations, but for now it's only film. So, like I said, my name is Alicia, I'm a Lacinian psychoanalyst, and with me we have my colleague from The land of the large white cloud, which is I just learned the meaning of the Maori name for New Zealand, which is Ayato Ayatoroa. Is did I get that right? Close. Ezra: AOTRI. That's very close. Alicia: A outra roa, that's it. Yes. Right? Ezra: that sort of emphasis on the A at the start. Alicia: Can you say that again? Ezra: AOT Roller. Alicia: Okay. Well it's beautiful. so go ahead and and introduce yourself. Ezra: Thank you. Yeah, sure. Hi, I'm Ezra, psychoanalyst working out of Auckland, New Zealand with a particular interest in film and how that interacts with analysis, how we can illustrate some of those concepts. Alicia: Very nice. Yes. great. So well maybe we can talk very quickly about how it is that we decided to start this. Like Ezra: Sure. bit. think initially when we were discussing we were looking at perhaps doing Obsession and it's certainly a really, really rich text but then once The Odyssey arrived and having seen that, that kind of grabbed the moment in the zeitgeist. But it's been around for a long time. I'm not sure if I would say it is the zeitgeist. It's been such kind of formative cultural text but still lots to unpick in what we see today and much anticipated, grand piece of filmmaking. Alicia: Yeah, yeah, that i that is interesting. So w we we still wanna look into obsession, but as you said, the Odyssey came out, we both saw it and decided, no, let's let's do this one first. but it's interesting that you say that it has been sort of the in the zeitgeist for, you know, a long time, obviously millennia. So I wonder if we can certainly we can see some we can trace the the its importance through Western the Western canon. I think that's really clear. but I wonder in which ways the story has been sort of interpreted to fit the zeitgeist of the time. I don't have any sort of real information about that, do you? Ezra: think there would be some meta-text in there. There's direct reference from Nolan where he speaks about Agamemnon and the trade routes. I think this is a gesture to contemporary concerns. Alicia: to to our our modern time. Ezra: Hmm. Alicia: Yes. No, I I I agree. I just meant I guess what I'm saying is that when you look at art and the interpretations of the Odyssey through time, what I don't have like a clear sense of is for example, if you if you look at the Aeneid or if you look at actually Ulysses, which I want to read after I finish reading the Odyssey this time around. I wonder how those interpretations of the original, like how they fit into the Zeitgeist of the t of their time. You see, like how th Ezra: Hmm. Alicia: how though at those times the Odyssey actually did sort of get interpreted to to mean something for those cultures and those civilizations. like it does for us now, right? Like the way that Nolan has done it in a way that it it it has derived an incredible like meaning that's very Timely, I would say. Ezra: How would you see that implemented in the story, in the film? Alicia: How would I see that implemented in like how do I in see that Nolan's interpretation is timely? Ezra: Yeah, say more. Time... Yeah, no, say more. My thought hasn't fully formed yet, but... Alicia: Okay, well I really want to get into that. I feel like we're rushing very quickly into that. Ezra: Okay. Alicia: But but I you know, I think that that's what we're here to discuss. This whole episode I think is going to be about how it is that it's precisely answering this question. How how is it that this, you know, sort of by some accounts 3,000-year-old story has so much to say about our present moment? Yeah. I think, I mean, maybe perhaps and I think there's something to this, right? It's very, very likely that a lot of the Nolan interpretation really is just spectacle. But yeah. Ezra: speak through bit of thinking about, mean, this is sort of a loose abbreviation, but I think of the story of the Odyssey. His Odyssey is to reintegrate into the symbolic order. So perhaps the way that it speaks is the sort of rupture of these symbolic orders that we were witnessing. The no laws, the anything goes. Alicia: I mean, yeah, I I agree. I think that I think that's very ri very accurate to what Nolan is doing. I'm just w I guess the the original question that I had is whether or not an argument could be made and I don't have any information about like to support this. It's just a a hypothetical almost at this point, that other at other historical times an interpretation of the Odyssey resonates in in and is interpreted therefore for for the people of those times, like in the way that Nolan has has has interpreted it for for our time. Right. So for example, if we take the thesis of the rupture of the symbolic, which I think is really yeah, I mean absolutely a a central thesis of this of this work. I wonder if this is a central thesis. Like in in what way right does it show up in other interpretations of the Odyssey across time? Right? Like like I was saying with with the Aeneid how prevalent is the theme of the rupture of the symbolic there? And in w and if it is, which I'm sure it is, because obviously the original is so concerned with Xenia, which is the Greek word for that, for the, you know, sort of the symbolic order of the time, which was in the film talked about as Zeus's Law. Right? So like the Aeneid, for example, how how does that show up there for the Romans? Or yeah. Ezra: Well, maybe if thinking of how it shows up, sorry if you're, but we take that word, zinia. Where might we find that, or a development of that word today, this is xenophobia. Alicia: Yeah, yeah. and so but so in our time, especially in some political quarters, you know, we we see how the the the topic of xenophobia resonates politically in some ways and in some other ways, right? And like in some specific ways. Like for example, it's at the foundation for a lot of progressive political ideology. It's also but perhaps not by by that name, at the center of a lot of right wing, you know, beliefs, etc. So I I and and this is a very modern political situation. Situation. I'm just saying this precise thing, the way in which this word has evolved over time and has its history or its root in in the word burksenia. How does how did that show up and in what way did it manifest for other you know for other historical eras? That's all. And again, it's a it's a hypothetical because we don't we can't really answer I don't think we can answer this this question at the moment. It was just a curiosity. Ezra: I think it's right, maybe if I'm hearing what you say is that we're gonna sit perhaps because of the nature of the structure of the text, it's a template that can be overlaid again and again. Alicia: Right. I mean certainly it is, right? The plot is. The plot is absolutely something that has been used over and over again. But is that really why it lives on, right? Like no, I don't think that that's why it lives on. I don't think that that's why we're still interested in the story three thousand years later. Ezra: Why are we interested 3,000 years later? Alicia: Yeah, and so I I that's that's that's exactly the point. and I think my my my answer to that would just be that it's our interpretation of how to Approach that very thing. well for us it is how to approach the symbolic order. Now I I don't know whether that is a thesis that you could apply to other historical periods. It would be a very interesting project to research that, you know, to sort of go back and read these other texts or other cultural manifestations that are derivative of the Odyssey and see if this actually holds up as like, these you know the one thing you know like the the feature the quality of the Odyssey that makes it timeless is its position vis-a-vis the symbolic order like that would be you know that would be that's a dissert that that's a dissertation you know so Ezra: I think maybe if we just sort of thinking of situating it, we've got some of that Lacanian theory, but if we were to analyze Nolan a little bit and see, because the two things are going to form each other, the director has a trope, they're going to have these things that he returns to, and it's such a beautiful text to him to return to, because he has this preoccupation with memory, with loss, with time. And there are elements in his other films, I'd suggest, we see coming into the Odyssey. If you think about the opening sequence in Inception, where he's on the beach, there's the figure of the woman, this is Calypso. Alicia: Yeah, I think that I think that there's a lot of parallels to inception. Well let's let me just give you and an audience, whoever actually ends up listening to this. some tidbits about the Odyssey that I f the Nolan's Odyssey that I found to be really interesting. And then I'd like to hear Ezra: Please do. Alicia: your take. I wanna hear what you have to say about this film in relation to Nolan's work. perhaps this film in relation to the original or whatever it is that you that you wanna wanna say. I'm I'm interested in that. So just a start I I made a list of some of some interesting sort of facts. Ezra: Cool. Alicia: That jumped out at me just very quickly. and I'm sure that you've come across a lot of these, like I was saying earlier, and the audience probably has too. Like these are just floating out in you know, in the internet. And it's but they're nonetheless really interesting. So one of the first things is that there's a lot of as you know, practical effects that were used instead of VFX. There it there was of course some VFX use, but mostly wherever possible a lot of practical effects. But I think that the one of the more interesting ones, I know we've all seen the pictures of the of Polyphemus the puppet, right in the in the cave. But I also saw a video of what I'm who I'm guessing is somebody working with the practical effects team. It was a test run to try to try out an edible soldier. So they actually made like like molds and and figures of human bodies with like actual sort of different material for the skeleton so it would be crunchy and a blood bag. And then he he Ezra: Thanks. Alicia: tested it. Yes, he tested it and like ripping its head off and blood spurted out. It was so cool. So I thought that was interesting. There's also another fun tidbit was that I'm sure you've heard of this one too, that there's a scene where there's some dolphins, but that was Ezra: No. Alicia: that was unplanned. So they were just shooting, and then these dolphins just out of nowhere show up. And so it just a happy coincidence there. I'll also say that something that I found really fabulous was that person who made the score for the film, so the composer. Yeah, so it's Ludwig G Gurdensen, if I can say it appropriately. But he's done other scores for Noland before and he's also I Ezra: Okay. Alicia: I know he just won last year, I think an Oscar. He's won like four Oscars. okay, yeah, so he did Sinners. That's what he won for. He did Oppenheimer, he did Tenet. Yeah, so he's Sinners was really the the the score was incredible. So Ezra: haunting. Alicia: Yeah. but for so for the Odyssey, and I love this bit, what he did so Nolan told him that he was not allowed to use any instruments that were not available past Or any instruments past the eighth century B C. So he recreated Ezra: Okay. Alicia: a lot of the instruments that are like time appropriate for whenever the Odyssey was written down. So we know that the Odyssey was actually passed down orally for for centuries before it was written down. But the limit was eight BCE. So so that what that did is that it forced him to recreate some of these musical instruments, but also Interestingly, he went, he traveled to Albania, and he went to some villages in Albania, and he heard this this tradition, this musical oral tradition that is still present today, still alive today. What's called Albanian isopolyphonic chants, which are Ezra: Esopolyphonic chance. Alicia: Aesopolyphonic chant. Really truly beautiful chants. I I highly recommend everyone to listen to them. and what's really nice about this is is a polyphonic chant is that they also use them as a way to pass down stories. So it's not just yeah, Ezra: Okay, right. Alicia: so orals oral history tradition. Hi everybody, this is Alicia with an editor's note. we unfortunately were unable to get the licensing necessary in order to reproduce the recording of the Albanian Isopolyphonic song that I reproduced for Ezra during a recording of this episode. So instead, I'm going to link it down below so that you can have access to that, and I highly recommend that you do because it is quite arresting. And I will also give you a very quick description of what isopolyphony refers to. Now this is from the UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage site, the page devoted to the Albanian folk isopolyphony, which reads that ISO, the term iso is related to the ison of Byzantine church music and refers to the drone accompanying polyphonic singing. Okay everybody, let's get back into the episode. Yeah, so that's an example of that. What do you think? Ezra: It's kind of like a Welsh choir crossed with a chant. Alicia: Okay. Great. You're k I don't know Welsh choir, so Ezra: Maybe have a little look at it another time. That's the first thing I sort of had. Yeah, a little bit of the Welsh choir in that. Alicia: Okay, okay. And so in my second viewing of the film, I try to isolate, like pinpoint where the influence of this was. And the only time that I really think that I could hear it was when the Odysseus Odysseus' men are like before a lot of their catastrophes befall them, I think perhaps right after leaving Troy, they're chanting in the in in their ship as they're leaving, as they're sailing away. And and it's it's a little like this. But I w I was just so intrigued by that and and I I thought that was so perfect. Like this so suits the what I think Nolan was trying to go for and specifically what what Ludwig Gurensen was going for. Ezra: Hmm. And it's a magnificent gesture as well to see real effects still being used. You would see them dragging the model of the horse up the beach. It's a little meta, but one might think of Fitzcarraldo slightly if they were to sort of reference it. And you see, going back to using the old instruments like that, who strung the harps for them? Who strung those string instruments? Interesting. Alicia: Mmm. Mmm. What sorry, what's the reference? Ezra: So which reference? When they're dragging Alicia: Did you say fits yeah. Ezra: the Trojan horse up the beach, visually, for me, that sort of calls back to Fitzcarraldo, the ropes, the heaving, the huh, huh. There's a Alicia: Mm. Ezra: rhythm to that as well. And Alicia: Yes, yes. Ezra: if we're thinking about Fitzcarraldo as somewhat of an odyssey. Alicia: Yes. Interesting. Ezra: I think it's a nod. I think that's a nod from no one. Alicia: so this is a film. Ezra: Fitzcarraldo? I'm an amazing film. We're in a Herzog. Alicia: okay. Okay. Okay. So what what tell me a little about it? Ezra: The story is the odyssey of trying to drag this giant boat through the Amazon by hand and the actual production of the film in itself was a... I'm going use the term again but let's just say a very arduous journey that cost a lot. Alicia: Okay. Ezra: and ultimately, well, failed and succeeded. But the making of the film is as interesting as the film itself. And it was shot in the jungle. Alicia: Fabulous. Okay, great. Thank you. I I I've been meaning it's a it's been on my list, but thank you. I'll I'll get to it as quickly as I can. great, okay, so let's let's get into it. What tell me what you think about about Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. Ezra: It's his best film for a while. I think Oppenheimer is a good film, but it's not a film that I enjoyed. I wouldn't even want to spend that last hour having to watch that again. Tenant. It's great, it's a nice technical exercise but it's not particularly engaging or entertaining for me. The Odyssey I'd been waiting for a long time. I'd had a little picture book as a kid. I can remember seeing the picture of the Cyclops. I thought it was from the start, It did most of the things I wanted it to do quite well. There were times when we weren't spending enough times on the island, on some of those islands. And I think that would be worthwhile. I'd have a question later as to whether it would work better as a two-part film. But I think he captures the essence of it. He understands the basic premises of it. and I think we would, I don't know, ideas are a bit, I'm waffling on now. I liked the film. And if I was to think about it from the beginning... He does a very nice job of presenting Odysseus as the divided subject perpetually throughout it. as the beggar, as Alicia: what Ezra: the king, as the husband. He's very, really Odysseus. Alicia: Yeah, so t why don't you tell us a little about what is the divided subject? To put you on the spot. Ezra: How we might see it in this film is he's never, or very rarely, himself in relation to his, quote unquote, desire in it. There's something always mediated between him and his desire. Something in between it. The Alicia: Mm. Ezra: real, which I think the sea works at in this film, Rage Memnon. when he's in disguise as the bigger. Alicia: What's his desire? Ezra: the restitution of the fantasy of Ithaca, not to Alicia: U Ezra: go back to Ithaca, but for that fantasy of that place and that order, that symbolic law. Alicia: So sort of going back to a pre Trojan war time. Ezra: you Alicia: The fantasy of what that was. Ezra: the fantasy of what that was. Alicia: Mm. Yeah, so this is interesting because And this this might sort of this takes me to the end of the film, which is the idea of exile and going forward to chasing the setting sun or what is it, the undying sun. Ezra: which is a particularly interesting segment of the Andean San. Alicia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and the the idea of having to honor his men. But but the way in which Nolan does this particular change from the original, of course, is that he takes Penelope with him, right? And so there's somewhat of a fantasy there of a of a sexual relation, obviously. But what I thought was really important about the ending was what it says about the politics of the his political message of the film. And so this Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: idea that his desires to restitute this fantasy is sort of goes it sort of undermines the political message, I would say. Like that would be a a a point that I would like to make. Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: do you agree with that? Ezra: Say a little bit more, how do you see that? Alicia: Well Ezra: undermines it. Alicia: Yeah, so the idea is that the political message, so The the political message as I see it is that The the political message is that when you when the symbolic order has been breached, the rest of the world burns, right? When Troy burns, the one walls of Troy burn, then the rest of the world burns. Everything has fallen out. And so Ezra: Respect the laws of Zeus. Alicia: Respect the symbolic order, exactly. Yeah. And if you if you don't, what you are in fact threatening is not just the people who are affected by not respecting the laws of Zeus, but the entire structure that supports it, right? And Ezra: Yes, yes. Alicia: so if the fantasy or sorry, if the desire is a restitution of the fantasy. Then I feel like the which I think is very very well supported by the ending of the film, by the way. Like I really do Ezra: The sea people. Alicia: well, but the the rested the C people, yes, right? Like this supports the thesis that the breach of the symbolic order means the end of the w the world, the end of the world, right, as it is. But what I was saying was that the or what I meant is that the end of the film, so the the i in the in the way in which Nolan has Odysseus and Penelope sailing away together to, you know, the sunset and you know, sort of this beautiful happy ending, you know, it is absolutely a happy ending, right? He gives him he gives him everything. He gives him what he wants, right? Anyway, I think that that that that version of the fantasy and and the fact that he does get it is actually counterintuitive, where it goes against this message that there can be such a thing as a breach of the symbolic, and there'll be consequences for it. Right and then it'll be the end of the world if you do preach the the symbolic. Right? If you have this like nice ending, if you have this ending where it's just like, okay, we're it you know, my wife and I are gonna the love of my life and I are gonna just be together till the end of time now. And I don't have any responsibilities anymore. I don't have to take care of my son anymore. Well, not that I ever did. you know, it's like let's just Ezra: The Undying Sun. Alicia: that's really nice. Ezra: That's what I'm saying, it's the undying sound. Alicia: Okay, that's nice. Okay. All right, tell me tell me more about that. Ezra: Well it's an interesting signifier, is You can play around with that quite a lot. And also what's happening, he's off on into his retirement. Alicia: Mm-hmm. Ezra: It's, I, yeah, I felt the ending was a let down, but I'd like to hear you finish off your point with it, but it's... Alicia: No, I think was it. I think that was it. You know, it's just you can't have both. And it seems to me like Nolan wants to have both. Nolan wants to have the the political slash moral of the story and the happy ending, right? Ezra: But it does lead up to that. It's telling us the whole time, respect the laws of Zeus. These are the consequences. And it does seem somewhat incongruent to to toodle off into the sun's edge. Alicia: Hm. Ezra: But I think there are elements where he is being facetious in this film quite deliberately. Alicia: Mm. Okay, how so? Tell me. Ezra: Helen's mangled. Alicia: Mm. Ezra: So he's playing around with some of these old tropes and then the casting of Scion as well and Travis Scott, they're quite interesting. If we're thinking about what's happening at the moment and those these kind of political and social orders, he's needling and I think that he does so quite skillfully. We've had instances around those castings of someone who is black being King Lear. He's looking deliberately to provoke something with that, which I think is quite interesting. Alicia: Mm-hmm. So you're talking about sort of like the woke efication of the Ezra: But I think he's needling the other side as well. he's having, if we're taking woke and old right. I think there's an attempt to... Yeah, provoke equally if that makes any sort of... I need to think about it a little bit more and put some other examples and maybe contextualize it through his work. But I was really interested to see the way it actually manifested in the film as opposed to the discourse that had been surrounding it, leading up to it. When I saw the film I was just like, okay, this is really not a deal. Alicia: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, he he does a really good job of like i integrating his choices seamlessly. Like he does not he doesn't highlight how special it is, right? That he has made these choices. It's just so natural. Which actually leads me to to if you don't mind, just let let me let me introduce Ezra: Go for it. Alicia: to you this idea that I have, this hot take that I have, which is that The American accents. I really I have something to say about the American accents. Ezra: Okay. Alicia: which is that normally when an important historical film is made, they are normally British accents. Ezra: of Tuffington, British. Alicia: Yes. And so I think that the fact that Nolan chose To stick with the American accent for this important historical film is really, really valuable in many ways. Like it really speaks to many things. The first thing that I thought of was, you know, sort of the forever optimist on my part, you know. Very happy to see that for the first time, I think, in modern history, it feels like because of this film. The United States both is incorporated into the sort of elitist classical literary literary canon, you know, classical European canon, right? Of the of the Western world, but also sort of like incorporated Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: into it, but also by virtue of that, given a place in its legacy. Right. And so in some way it felt very almost like proletarian to to do that. You know, sort of like Yeah, Ezra: something democratic about it. Alicia: very much, very much. So and this in in in this regard I do you know, I'm showing my very sort of like again sort of like naive political naivete almost, right? And like the the the wish that it hit that it were so, you know, the wish that there were such a thing as a democratic, you know, United States of America, which which at the time of of course we know that is very much on the knife's edge if not already gone beyond the possibility of there actually being a a a democracy. In the United States it's serving the interests of the people, serving the interests of well, the working class, right? And and so that leads me to my to my second point on the Americanization or of the Americanness of the of this version of the Odyssey, which is of course a political element of it. Sort of by by by placing it squarely, you know, in in in America within the American context, and now like literary and and cinematic context, now There's no escaping that the the the political message is very much pointed at the United States, right? It's very much pointed at American audiences and pointed at what's going on politically for the United States, which which By virtue of the economic structure of the United States, it has been exported globally, right? By that I mean we're exporting the political ideology that the United States has fallen prey to through neoliberal policies, and this has been happening for a long time. And you can see, you know, sort of like the so so I guess what I'm saying is that at the same time that Nolan is placing the United States as the natural, like in inheritor of the Western canon, it's also putting he's also putting the United States as the origin, right? Like almost at at the point of Ithaca for this political exportation, right? And this like very serious danger to the current symbolic order that is very much at stake Ezra: Hmm. Alicia: just as Z X Xenia was For the Greeks and for for the for the people of the of the time in the in the film. Ezra: It's the kernel and also I was just thinking a little bit about the of the United States place and what happens with culture and that exporting of it. Everybody's, the true they spoke about the fall of Russia and the part of that is the exploitation of culture in Russia, Soviet Union. But it's genes and rock and roll. It's not just arms that is exported. This film is working, well Alicia: Can you say more? Ezra: this film is working in both ways there. It is the thing that is doing that very thing. Exporting a culture, exporting a message, exporting a particular discourse. And it's all still situated as part of a massive economic model. Nolan is the godfather of money and movies now. Alicia: Fair. Yes. Ezra: We have to go to IMAX to see it. Don't see it on a regular Alicia: Yes. Ezra: screen. You've to get your IMAX ticket. Alicia: Yes, very nice. Yeah, do you have any figures on what the film has grossed so far? Ezra: I saw something like 240 million opening weekend but I haven't looked since then. Alicia: Okay, so right now it says that it has approximately grossed four hundred and twenty-five million dollars globally in the first week, which now we're in its second week. driven by a massive 124.5 million domestic opening and 264.1 million worldwide debut. Yeah, well, there you go. Ezra: It's huge. It's huge. Alicia: sixty per sixty two percent ahead of op Oppenheimer over the same time frame. wow. Okay, yeah. So domestic opening weekend, Oppenheimer did eighty-two point four million and the Odyssey did 124.5. Ezra: Hmm, so there's an appetite for it Alicia: Well, I mean, my God, like I'll just I'm a perfect example of this appetite. I have never gone back to the movie theaters twice. Like to see a film in theater. I have now seen it twice and I have a ticket to g to go see it in IMAX in Paris because I haven't seen it in IMAX. I I saw I've seen it in seventy millimeters here, but we don't have an IMAX screen where I live at the moment. And next weekend I'm gonna be in Paris and I bought a ticket to go see it in IMAX there. That's three tickets. And and I Ezra: Tika. Alicia: bought the tickets for the for my roommate who came to see it with me twice already, too. So I bought it five times. Ezra: All right. Well, that's a testament. That's a testament. I've seen it once. went to the IMAX, but I was sitting right over on the far edge. I'll go back at some point during this week to watch it again. And there's been few films that I've gone back to see twice. The Matrix is Alicia: Okay. Ezra: maybe one of them. I walked out of that and walked back into that. But I was a teenager and may have been stoned at the time, Alicia: okay, yeah, so in regard to his I'm sorry, did you have something? Ezra: No, go right ahead, go ahead. Alicia: I was just gonna ask you, Inrig in in con in like in the in the history of Nolan's particular work, and the questions that you see him have like dealing with in his work, how does the Odyssey compare? Ezra: I'd start by saying this. I think about Nolan a little bit first. I'm thinking about who he is, where he would have grown up. He's an English public school boy. He will have read the Odyssey. This will have formed all of his works And so I think it's in some ways been an opportunity for him to weave some of these looser threads in previous films together. Perhaps as I said, you we might have seen that figure of Calypso at the start of Inception. But he has this preoccupation with time, memory, loss. Alicia: No, I was just thinking about the when we talked about it previously, you'd said that something really nice, which was that Oppenheimer was in Oppenheimer, Nolan was concerned with the end of time. Right? Ezra: It's the end of time. Alicia: And with You know, obviously going back to Memento, he's very much concerned with time in that film. I you'd probably have a a nicer way of of sort of like qualifying it than I do at the moment. inception, dream time in tenant logical time, not and here I I don't I don't know that I that I don't mean what what we in psychoanalysis mean by logical time, but I th but let's just put it in terms of like, I don't know, Ezra: If you were to think of one in each film, think Dunkirk is what to do with time, the pressure of time. Alicia: nice. Okay. Ezra: acting on desire. Alicia: Okay, very nice. okay. W in in this sort of way, how would you sort of conceptualize what Nolan is doing with time in the Odyssey? Is he concerned with time and the Odyssey? Ezra: How nostalgia is death. Alicia: Nostalgia is death. Can you say more about that? Ezra: the impossibility of him returning to Ithaca. There is the attempt to repeat, to suture this rupture in the symbolic order, but it is impossible. I think he's dead at the end of the film, with the Alicia: Mm. Ezra: sailing off. You know, in some time when we come back to look at this film, I'm not sure the ending is... That literal interpretation of the ending is the correct one. Alicia: Hmm. So wait wait, because the the suturing of the symbolic, the the setting are right of the symbolic for him, which by the way, we should talk about what the symbolic is. Just very quickly, just so that people who are listening to this and who have so far up and you know stayed with us and don't know what the symbolic order is, in case that is Ezra: So only another 249 minutes to go. Alicia: i in case in case some somebody like that is listening, just very quickly, how would you sort of like what's an easy way, like an offhand way to describe what the symbolic is? Ezra: I'll let you do it. think you're pleased to illustrate for us. Alicia: Okay. I I like Zizek's way of explaining symbolic in in this example that he uses in terms of the etiquette of something. So it's not The symbolic order is an unspoken rule or an unspoken set of rules that everyone abides abides by. Okay. So in you can see this more most readily in c in things like etiquette, which are not written down. This is not a code, you know, that by which you that we that we have as as an object to refer back to. We just know not to act in certain ways or to act in certain ways. Like I think a very A very sort of quick and provocative example that I that I like to use sometimes is that You don't just come up to someone and start having sex with them. Okay. That's that's called rape. And and we don't just do that, right? Like there's a whole procedure that we must go through that all that involves the symbolic at every step of the way in order to be able to get to the point of intimacy. and these are rules that we abide abide by, right? Like the dating is all about this, right? Like social life is all about the symbolic order. And and in the Odyssey it was a very there's a very nice way of I in fact there's Ezra: How might we see it? Alicia: I don't think I wrote down. But it was something like when he talks about breaking the law of Zeus, he talks about it in terms of breaking the bonds that unite men, right? Breaking the bonds that unite people. And that's it. That's the symbolic order. The symbolic order is the law of Zeus in the Odyssey. Period. Ezra: Yeah, it's the laws of Zeus. think of going to the island of the, with the cattle. It was illustrated it really nicely. Do not kill the Zeus, the cattle of Zeus. This is really clearly illustrated. You know what's going to happen. And over and over again, we would see this in the Odyssey. Alicia: Yeah, well these are interdictions th the from the gods, right? That's that's an interesting that's an interesting sort of detour. Ezra: And well, they are detours too, because what are the detours? What are those islands if each one's not a kind of departure from the symbolic, with the lotus eaters into forgetfulness, with Alicia: Mm. Ezra: Circe into namelessness and instinct? Alicia: Mm, that's a nice interpretation. Ezra: They're a little symbolic vacation with consequences. Alicia: Mm. Mm. They're sort of in their own ways w ways of as you say, but bre breaking the symbolic, right? That's nice. That's a really nice so mm, go ahead. Ezra: And I think each one has its own flavour in each particular location. It's illustrating something else. Alicia: okay. And no, you you tell me. No, Ezra: and nobody. Sorry, go ahead, go ahead, we can come back to nobody. Alicia: please. Which he didn't say in the film. I was quite you know, I was I was very displeased with this in particular Ezra: It's one of the best bits. It's one of the best bits. It's one of the best tricks. Alicia: Yeah. Okay, but sorry to I sorry interrupted you. But nobody to can you recall your train of thought? Ezra: I'd ask you a question with this idea of the symbolic order in mind. What might that suggest when someone says they are nobody? Alicia: Hmm. That's very nice. It's sort of like the uncastrated baby, right? Not even the father, the castrative father. It's just sort of like the the the the fantasy of the s of the uncastrated subject. But as a subject, as like the hiding I think Lacan talks about in terms of the hiding spot of the obsessive, right? Like Ezra: The Undying Alicia: Which you know the hysteric does too, Ezra: Sun. Alicia: but like but in a in a different way, you know, but it's like yeah, it's sort of a way to be a little you know, be a little mischievous and break the symbolic order without being castrated. Ezra: Mmm, mmm, mmm. Which the more I'm thinking about it now that that line towards the end of the film of the undying sun becomes more interesting. Alicia: How so? Ezra: whether there's something deliberate to that. We're thinking of the Undying Sun as analogous to an uncastrated subject. Alicia: I see. So the the undying S O N. Ezra: O-N. Alicia: Right. Right. that's very nice. Sort of like re retaining that position in effect. Right? Of being the uncastrated, like little guy that everyone loves Ezra: Yeah, yes. Alicia: and you can get away with anything you want and like like that. Yeah. Ezra: That's the uncastrated, obsessional subject, the undying sun, arrested development. Alicia: Yeah, but that's the moment. But that's such a per that is such a specific reading to our time, right? Like, Ezra: Yeah, I might be drawing a long bow on that. Alicia: no, no, I think it's right. I just think that like I'd I would like to know what the consequences are for thinking for taking up that thesis, that position, and then seeing that sun, the uncastrated sun, or I guess the undying sun, Be crowned, right? Be the king of Ithaca in the end. You know, what what does that I mean, that's basically like the Trump fantasy, right? Like Ezra: It's been every Trump's fantasy. Trump's not the first Trump. It's every Trump's fantasy. Alicia: sure. Sure. She's just like a very easy target because it's just so o everywhere Ezra: Hmm. Alicia: all the time. My God. Ezra: think that this is also why the story interests us, you know, there's Agamemnon's been around for a while. Alicia: Yes. Fair fair point, yes. Okay, so there's a couple more things that I'd like to touch on before we end Ezra: Sure. Alicia: One of them is Agamemnon, right? Like one of them is the just like to like totally spectacular in the sense of spectacle nature of Ezra: great outfit. Alicia: it's so good. So good. it's very unfortunate that he speaks. You know, it was just very sort of Ezra: Yeah Alicia: it was anticlimactic when he spoke. It was like, all of this all of this, you know, tension about, you know, seeing Agamemnon. For a second there I forgot that it was not Achilles. I mean, that's very appropriate for an Achilles like figure. but no. Okay. So what did you think of Ezra: It would have been left better unsaid. There's only one dark figure with a great voice in cinema. That's Darth Vader. Alicia: Yeah Yeah. Yeah, is that is that an analogy you're drawing like a parallel between Yeah. Okay. What did you what did you think of of the character? Ezra: I would have preferred him to stay silent. I thought the character was largely well done, like sort of the less said the better. It's quite nice when he is just shrouded in mystery. It leaves a lot more room to think about the power and the meanness of Agamemnon if it's not illustrated too clearly. That would be my aesthetic preference with it. Alicia: Mm mm mm. What about Minelawis? What did you think of of his character? Ezra: I'd have to go back and think about Menilowis a little bit more. I did re-watch Troy a couple of days ago, so I was thinking about... But that's a bit more like a buddy movie. It's like a dirty dozen, all the boys go on a mission. But still quite a good film and entertaining. Sorry, that didn't answer the Alicia: Ooh. Ezra: question about Menilowis. Alicia: Ooh. I didn't I I I'm very hesitant to revisit that film. I think I watched it the once when I was 'cause you my I have a little bit of a background in the classics, okay? I'm like a total pedant that way. I was in I went I went to a classical high school where I studied Latin and then I went to a classical college where I studied ancient Greek and then I've sort of tried to keep up a little bit, not very well, but with with reading a little bit of ancient Greek and texts in the language but also just like various different kinds of interpretations obviously and translations. And and when Troy came out, I was like the biggest critic, you know, so disappointed. Just so terrible. but how could you I mean, I say, how could you make justice to such a to such a text? And and and we're talking about this incredible film that I think Nolan did a very good job with. Ezra: I think that's right. If we look back on some of these other attempts, this has been a valiant effort. I had a little look. did about 20 minutes of Ridley Scott's Gods and Men, that awful adaptation of Exodus. fuck. That 20 minutes was Alicia: Mm-hmm. Ezra: enough. And I really like Ridley Scott, but this is not an easy undertaking. Alicia: Yeah, yeah. He has like yeah, he has some really good ones and some really bad ones. But yeah, it's not. And it's and it's often like the the downfall seems to be often trying to be very like accurate or trying to be very faithful. And I think that Nolan did the right thing, which is just like he understood that this was an interpretation of a translation, right? Which by the way, the translator that the text that he used was the Emily Wilson translation. Which Ezra: Yeah, I've heard about Emily Wilson. I was listening to her on the Alicia: Yeah, I've read you're listen yeah. Ezra: Have you read this, Alicia? Alicia: So I've read the look, I've read the Lattimore, I've read the Fitzgerald, I've read the Yeah, and I've read the Joseph Three, and I've read the Wilson. I love the Lattimore. Lattimore's always gonna be the, you know, the the the sort of mo most beautiful translation for me. But the Wilson was interesting because it really is super accessible. Like if you're interested in reading the Odyssey and you haven't had exposure to reading classical texts, read the Emily Wilson translation. It's super entertaining and it's it's very the the the cadence of the of the language is nice, but it's so evocative. Like she does a very good job of of of speaking to the readers of today. And and so it's very accessible, but so I likened it to a kind of like I wish I had some some scenes of it to share with you because there's some scenes that are ser like I think one with Nausica They're talking about washing Odysseus and oiling him and the description is like is like reading or sorry, it's like watching a chick flick, you know, it's like this hot, sexy dude, you know? It's like, yeah, like I kinda wanna read that, you know? Like it's really you know, classicists will h probably hate it. But but I think it's a really important translation. It's a like I said, because not only because it's accessible, but also because The her choices reflect like a sector of the population that's not often thought about or considered when translating these texts. And so therefore, you know, why should people care? You know, why should people try like make the effort of getting through like some dark, you know, dusty you know, version of the of the Odyssey unless you have like a particular taste for like classical like poetry, you know, and and know and know what it is that you're getting into which is like you know a bit you know it's it's a bit labyrinthian when you when you sort of it's very it's a rigorous reading when you go through like the very nitty gritty of the of the sort of older translations so so this was fun this was a really fun interpretation or sorry translation Ezra: So with drawing on your knowledge of those classics, of the fundamental texts, is there anything that stands out in the Nolan film that you, additions or subtractions? Alicia: You know, I watched the film like a film. Like I didn't watch it as a it and because I did that, because I went into it thinking, this is this is a film. It doesn't, you know, I'm not I'm not expecting this. Right? It was so fun to sit there and be like, this is that part. this is that part. Like, he did he chose to bring this in, or he didn't, you know. And so I d I think that you know, he could be criticized for everything, as he has been. I praise his choices and I praise his his own interpretation. I think he did a really good job of s of giving us like a really entertaining three hour film. The the only up on second viewing, the only part of it that I did not that I sort of didn't want or like, you know, thought w why is this here? Like it it seems to take a lot of time and it didn't really serve anything was the Lestergonians. You know, like I just thought like it's cool to see the forced perspective and stuff, but like what I mean, it just decimated Odysseus's fleet and and and that sucks, you know? But like I don't know that y it was sort of like an accident, you know, like there wasn't a there wasn't a reason why the except for, you know, t to s to sort of reinforce the idea that Poseidon was angry at Odysseus. but Ezra: I think we would differ slightly on that part. I would have loved to have seen more of that spectacle and I was really disappointed in their outfits. I thought the costumes needed to be better. I'd been dreaming of seeing that for a long time. Alicia: Okay. Ezra: They just looked like giant English knights. One of the few quibbles. Alicia: Okay, okay. Do you have any other like quibbles or Ezra: minor ones. I mean, I think that was one of the experience and maybe test words to the film was leaving us like, wow, that was generally really good. Alicia: Yeah. Ezra: I was, my desire was satiated and so much as such a thing as possible. Alicia: I'm good. well to go back to Menelaus real fast, so John Bernthal is the is the name of the actor. I thought he was great. I've heard a lot of things yeah, Ezra: Love, Berntal. Alicia: I think I think a lot of people have said, you know, negative things about him portraying this character, but I thought he was great. he Ezra: He's a good actor. He does it good. Alicia: he does what he does really well. And I think that it was very fitting for here, you know? Ezra: I think, sorry for very interrupt, this is one thing I was sort of pick up just thinking about it now is, if we're thinking about the Odyssey and its transmission fundamentally being an oral one, Who is Nolan Kast? Orypus, Luguziamo, Travis Scott. Bernthal, different styles, but these are people, however you want to think of it, that rhythm, that on and play, that tone, they're orators. Scott, Luguziamo, Alicia: Hmm. Ezra: Bernthal, these are orators. Alicia: Hmm. That's very nice. And I know that John Leguiziamo has a history of of acting in theater and sort of that's where he came from. I don't know about John Bernthal. Do you know if he has Ezra: going off my ear what I hear like if I think of those actors and in roles in the past there's something captivating in the way that they speak something natural you know there may be something that's cultivated with Luguzi Amo and theatre but there's presence you could see them standing next to a know plinth 1500 years ago Alicia: Nice, there's presence. Yeah. So let's let's talk about that for a little bit because that sort of goes to what we're saying about what is it? Benny Savdi who did Agamemnon. It's just like z like physical presence, but Ezra: Yeah, that's weird. That was so weird. Alicia: zero orator presence in the way that you're talking about it. Zero. I mean, it was not like ouch, you know, like come on. You know, really. okay. But Elliot Page, very the excellent, excellent. Ezra: That was a good speech. Alicia: All yeah, it was wonderful. also who plays well we have to, you know, mention Samantha Morton as Cersei. She she all all I would sort of agree that she goes right along the sort of category that you're describing. physical but also like vocal presence, like very, very strong. and who who played Tiresias because he was really incredible as well. James James Ezra: I'm not sure. Alicia: Rum Ramar? R Ramar? Remar? I don't know. Ezra: All respect to James Ray Marr, not someone I'm familiar with. Alicia: Well he was he was the US Secretary of War Henry Stimson in Oppenheimer. Yeah, Ezra: Okay. Alicia: I don't okay. But he was great, I would say. Did you do you would you agree with that? Ezra: I think it was a strong performance. And Hathaway too. I was really surprised by Hathaway. Alicia: Okay, I'm glad you brought this up because I have a theory. That this was the product of very good directing. Her performance, which was an excellent performance, was the product of very good directing. And I say this because Emily Blunt in Oppenheimer is very similar to this. Like she was incredible in Oppenheimer. And she's incredible. She's a very good actress, and I really like her roles, but that was the strongest performance that I've seen by her. And this was by far the strongest that I've ever seen by Hathaway. Even in other Nolan films. Like this, she was in she was really incredible in this. Ezra: Buy a country mile. Buy a country mile. But I think maybe one quick thing did is this, Alicia: Alright. Ezra: I know we're running out time a little bit, casting what-ifs. Is it? Alicia: okay. wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we do that, we have to talk about Zendaya. Ezra: Okay, go, go, go, go. Alicia: Well what did you think about Zendaya? Ezra: A little bit of an upset. was like, man, I was gonna say I want death to have more balls, but I will just kinda say it, like it just didn't seem. to have much gravity. Alicia: You d you don't think that Zindea's portrayal of Athena didn't didn't like you thought that it she didn't have a lot of gravity to it? I totally disagree. I'm of the opposite. I think sh I think it had I think she was well, she for the plot to work, she'd have to be the center, right, of gravity of the film. And I think and I think Ezra: Okay. Alicia: that it I think that she does. I do. I did think that it was like a very strong performance. Subtle, right? Nuanced. because she didn't have a lot Ezra: Perhaps two sessions. Alicia: of dialogue. Ezra: Should have had more. If you're going to have a vein hurt, there should have been more, I think. Alicia: But actually this brings me to the to the topic of of the way in which Nolan portrayed the gods. which is you w what did you think about 'cause you know, the in the in the sort of you know it's sorry to be that person, but in the originals, Ezra: No, no, go. I like that person. The detail is good. Alicia: in the originals, the gods are objective in the sense that they are able to be seen by mortals, right? At at all times, whenever whenever they want to present themselves, they that just they exist objectively. And here, please. Ezra: Not just that, I could interject for a moment, because I think we've said in the film, and I think it's important, is within those Zeus's laws is that incorporation that it could be the beggar, that the god may always be there, you never know. Alicia: Yes. Absolutely. Very nice. Very I mean, that's the whole point of of Susa's Law. It's like you don't know who actually is. But that's the point, right? it goes to Ezra: and yeah. Alicia: saying like, well, because they can. Because the gods do manifest themselves objectively, externally to people. They're not just psychological entities. Right? And and Nolan chose to present Athena very psych very psychologically. Like not and this is not to say he he struck a nice balance because this is not to say that he s Merely relegated the gods to a psychological dimension. Why? Because of Xenia. Everyone adheres to these laws. Everyone knows what they are. And so that implies that there is an objectivity to them, of course, to the gods. But I thought that it was really nice that the This particular sort of psychological interpretation of Athena and of Odysseus's relationship to Athena and the way in which he conceptualizes of the gods was so intimate to him and so personal. I thought it was really a beautiful decision, really outstanding decision to really drive home the source of his trauma. Right? Like and and then and then the the fact the way in which he sort of drove that home by using Cindaya as one of the priestesses in the Temple of Athena in Troy Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: that gets murdered. It's just it's beautiful. Like really nicely done. Ezra: Perhaps I'll have to revisit it with another eye. Alicia: I mean I'm not trying to I'm not trying Ezra: you Alicia: to win you over to Teams and Day although actually maybe I am because you know, how could you not be? But Ezra: Zendaya and I don't have issues. It's just... I'm not starting beef with Zendaya. Alicia: Fair. Fair. Okay, maybe it's just Nolan's underuse of of Zendaya. Ezra: I think so, yeah, more so perhaps. Alicia: But I but I also think that it was nice to to because you don't want too much involvement, right? You don't want in order for in order to highlight the psychological relationship for for Odysseus and what Athena means to Odysseus. If you have too much, you know, Athena speaking to Odysseus, he maybe sort of undoes that a little bit. Ezra: I'm thinking about it now and you may be right there that perhaps there actually is a potency to the subtlety. Alicia: Yeah, exactly. Almost Ezra: Yeah. Alicia: in the way that, my gosh, what's his name? Once upon a time in Hollywood. Director. Tarantino. Ezra: Tarantino? Alicia: Almost in the way that Tarantino uses Margot Robbie, right, in that film. Which is zero dialogue. Maybe a word. Right? But she's Ezra: Mmm. Mmm. Alicia: so at the center of that film. Like her Ezra: woven all the way through. Alicia: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ezra: Yeah, so of course would Athena be, yeah, yeah, that's true. Actually, that's true. Alicia: my gosh, I actually won you over in an argument to to to to aside. Amazing. Yeah, I wasn't intending to do that. but I'm glad that it happened. I have w Go ahead. Ezra: I think... Go for it. I've got one question for you. was just thinking with the... With the acting and the different roles, how it might be different. Matt Damon, Christian Bale. Alicia: great. Christian Bale for Odysseus? Or or are you are we comparing or you 'cause you did the you wanted to do the ifs. Like Ezra: the F's. Alicia: alternate ca casting, yes. So you're saying you would you would be you would advocate for Christian Bale in the role of Odysseus? Ezra: It's a proposition. I've been thinking about it. Well, he's the other kind of chief Nolan protagonist. Alicia: Mm, mm. Ezra: What would the world be like with Bale as Odysseus? Alicia: Think I think he's a little too serious. I feel like it would be like Ralph Fines, Like like the like extra serious. Ezra: I'd like to see it. I'd like to see it. We have our own kind of cultural transferences with Damon, but he can be a bit fixed sometimes, whereas there's just, Bale feels more tortured. There's a kind of, he exudes some kind of agony in a way that I think would be well represented as a VCS. perhaps I think of Batman being a little bit like Odysseus. Alicia: but I th but I think that that's why I like Damon because he's a little more aloof and a little more like he I think he accentuates the wiliness Right? The trickery, the and it doesn't and because that doesn't come from a source of trauma, right? Like the the trick his tricky nature, of course, you know, fundamentally does reduce to that. We are psychoanalysts, we agree with that. But but he enjoys it. He enjoys being a little trickster. He likes being provocative and like being a little bit of a dick here and there, right? and and then there's a contrast to that. to the real source of suffering that he that that would let's say if he were to come to analysis be, you know, his complaint, Ezra: Mm. Alicia: right? Which is that he's Ezra: Ooh, what would his complaint be? Alicia: How do I get home? Right? I think the initial complaint might be that, how do I get home? And then and then through the analysis you could get to what you know, one of Zindeya's nice lines in the Odyssey is, Why don't you want to go home? Which is an analysis. Ezra: This is the other news saying that I was thinking the question with the complainers, do I want to? Alicia: Well, that would be later on, right? I feel like the initial complaint is how do I get home? Like the b getting home is the problem. How do I do that? And then later on in the analysis, it's like, do you do you want to get home? Maybe you don't. Ezra: What could you say about home? Alicia: Yeah, right, exactly. Yes. Okay. this is this'll be a nice seg into the Ezra: go. Alicia: last point that I have to bring up. Which is the siren song. What did you think of Matt Damus or slash Odysseus's description of what he heard? Ezra: Heart wrenching. Didn't think Nolan had it in him. I was shocked. I was like, wow, that's a really good description of pain. Quite brilliant. I don't know who wrote that. It'd be interesting to see who wrote that, whether that was Nolan, but that was very good. And excruciating. Alicia: Now, did it remind yeah, I agree. Did it remind you as an analyst of anything? Ezra: It sounds that it's reminded of you of something. Did you have something in mind? Alicia: You're very good. very good at deflecting. Yes. He has reminded me of so I really did think that this was a very nice description of the object petia. Ezra: Perfect description. Alicia: Yeah. So I actually brought a couple of quotes from Lacan to talk a little bit about that specific point. Ezra: Mm-hmm. Alicia: Here here's what Odysse here's what Odysseus says. Odysseus says, excuse me. Here's what Odysseus says. I'll cut that out. So speaking of the object, we can we can make some cuts. Alright. So he says w he is asked, what did you hear? He and he he says ellipsis. All the things you want it to be and the and the things you wish you never wished for. The delicious itch that you go to scratch that you can't reach and it becomes unbearable. You're haunted by what you most want. And what you most want is what you can't have. And what you and what you most can't have is what you already had and lost. Right. Ezra: I have lost. He's very, very good. Alicia: so in seminar six of Jacques Lacan seminar six on desire and its interpretation, he in this is the English translation. and it's for those who are listening and want the reference, it's page 84. And I remember from the days of writing my dissertation that I'd I'd come across something that I that it just really reminded me of this. And I almost thought somebody's gotta come across this and or had read this description in order to sort of draw from in and incorporate that into the dialogue because it's just so it to me just sounds so alike. the context is he's talking about desire. So he starts, the the object is something that props him up in his existence in the most radical sense, namely in the sense in which he exists in language. Otherwise stated, the object is something that is outside of him and whose true linguistic nature he can grasp only at the very moment at which he as a subject must be effaced, vanish, or disappear behind a signifier. At that moment, which is a moment of panic, so to speak, the subject must grab a hold of something. And he grabs a hold of the object qua object of desire. And then and then comes the real part that I thought reminded me of this. He he introduces an author. He says, Someone whom I will not name immediately today, in order not to create confusion. Someone who is quite contemporary but is now dead wrote somewhere to ascertain exactly what the miser whose treasure was stolen lost. Thus we should learn much. And then he continues, this is exactly what we must learn. I mean learn for ourselves and teach others. And so I thought that was that logic to ascertain exactly what the miser whose treasure was stolen, lost, is exactly the same logic as what Odysseus says in the end. That which excuse me. That which you most want, which you most can't have, and that which you most can't have is that which you already had and lost. Ezra: and have lost. This is the nostalgia as death. Alicia: Mm, say more. Ezra: with that fantasy that there was something lost, this lost object that can be returned. Alicia: Though it's funny because he continuously that's also th basically the name of his the content of his fantasy, right? The nostal the nostalgia of returning home, returning to a place that was. Ezra: the impossibility of restitution. Alicia: The impossibility of restitution is The real, right? Ezra: Say more, the real. Alicia: What I mean I'm trying to locate the so if we could map out the the sort of okay, if we could map it out in the usual sort of Lacanian formula of fantasy, the part subject with the loss inch in relation to an unconscious, an unconscious relation to the objepatiya. The objepatiya is this nostalgia, right, for the for the things that are lost. Ezra: that we would see as examples, let's say, Penelope and maybe an example of that is the weaving, that it's always undone. Alicia: The the weaving that's always undone. Yeah, so in right, right. So in order for the fantasy, in order for the object to even be there, it requires structurally that that point of undoing be there. And that is what I mean by perhaps the bar as opp you know in sort of the category of the real, right? Like the impossibility Ezra: Right. Alicia: of restitution is there, as the cut, the Penelope's unweaving is there. Right? Great! We agree. Okay, Ezra: Cheers! Alicia: and I have one more Lacan thing to bring up, which Ezra: Sure. Alicia: is that he has, I don't know if you know this, I felt very proud of myself for remembering, but he has a direct reference to the Odyssey in one of these seminars. It's seminar nineteen at the very beginning. where he references Odysseus being tied to the mast. And what yeah and yeah. Yeah yeah Ezra: Of course he does. I didn't know about this but this is very exciting. Alicia: and what he and and he r he likens Odysseus being tied to the mast to what psychoanalysts must do. Yeah, so I'm gonna read to you a bad translation of the original French. I I would I don't have the English translation with me, but I but I I highly encourage you and and and others to to reach for that because this isn't probably gonna do so much justice to this beautiful French, but here it is. this is undoubtedly why the psychoanalyst, just as Odysseus does in such a conjecture, remains tied to a mast. Naturally, for this for this to last, with the siren song continuing to enchant him, that is being heard completely as skew askew. Sorry about my accent. He must remain tied to the mast, in which you cannot help but recognize the phallus, right? The masts, the phallus. That is the major overarching signified. This suits everyone only insofar as it has no adverse consequences, since that is precisely what is intended for, for the future of psychoanalysis itself, that is for all those who are in the same boat. So there you have it. Ezra: That's very good. I knew it. I knew it. I could feel it in my waters, Alicia. That's it. I'm going to Damon Beard and I'm going to buy a tunic. That's how I'll be working from now on. Alicia: very good. All right. Well actually that's a that's a nice place to stop, do you think? Ezra: Perfect, I think that's an elegant point of punctuation. Alicia: Very nice. Well, thank you so much, Ezra, for coming along and talking with me about this really incredible cultural manifestation that is the the spectacle that is the Odyssey. Ezra: That was great, thank you very much. Yeah, a lot of fun, there's a lot to unpack there. It's a lot of hours on the three hours of Nolan. Alicia: every e everyone and their mothers is talking about it. But you know what? It's worthwhile. It's worthwhile the the bandwidth. Ezra: Everyone and their mothers and their gods and their sons and their nobodies Alicia: Nah, very nice, very nice. All right, my friend, thank you, and we'll see you soon. Okay. Ezra: Great, thanks a lot. See you later, bye. Alicia: This has been the first episode of Latent Content, a podcast where we analyze film through a LeCanian and psychoanalytic lens. Thank you very much for being a member of our audience and we encourage you to stick around. Our next episode will be devoted to analyzing the 2026 film by Karee Baker, Obsession. See you next time.