Late To The Party: Have you ever wanted to get revenge on a bully? Someone intimidating, with more social power, who enjoys making your life a nightmare? Someone who was spoken poorly about, but rarely, if ever, gets a taste of their own medicine? When I was young, I couldn't help myself. I've just been having a look through our Late to the Party podcast private Facebook page and just having a look to see what has been discussed. Let's have a look and see. Let me just turn these digital pages over. Hmm. We we we generally have a a weekly time for weekly wins, ⁓ any small wins you had and I'm not gonna mention anyone's names, that's that would be naughty. ⁓ but I will say that someone's drinking less coffee this week with Not sure if it's a win or whatever, but it is for me because apparently I've got blood pressure that is high. I was sharing that I'm trying to learn a soul groove on the drums and I still haven't figured it out yet. We have a Friday favourite, so we sort of talk about what's ⁓ what we're into, whether it be music, food, books, whatever. ⁓ someone's enjoying a sam bold tea with the biscoff pickies. And those hundreds of thousands biggies yum. Listening to lots of Fleetwood Mac and rereading the Hundred and Thirteenth Assistant Librarian. ⁓ someone's into raspberries. ⁓ Marks and Spencer, chocolate orange, chunky biscuits. This this is really ⁓ this people that listen to this now going, ⁓ my god, I gotta get on this. I have to get in on this conversation. Now there are conversations that do go on, but you know, if you wanna read them you have to go in and join us. So anyway Who are we talking to today? Who is my guest? Well It's another author, actually. ⁓ a very different kind of author to to Sadie from last week. So my guest today is Travis Alexander, author of Stairway to the Spectrum, a memoir about growing up undiagnosed with autism, ADHD, and dyslexia. And the often confusing, occasionally hilarious, and sometimes painful process of working out why you seem to experience the world a little differently to everyone else, and ⁓ my god. Is there some funny moments in this book that you will totally get? You'll totally feel like, ⁓ I've had something like that happen. But I reckon there's a couple you probably maybe not have gone as far as as Travis did. And it's just brilliant. It's so cool. Now Travis is also an engineer. He's a break dancer. What a thing to find out. He's also, excitingly, a new dad. And he's someone who spent a lot of time reflecting on the sort of social misunderstandings. This gets sort of covered a lot in the book, as well as relationships, crazy travel adventures, ⁓ my god, and life lessons that eventually lead to his diagnosis. So the book is it's funny, it's it's thoughtful, it's really honest, ⁓ it's moving in parts, I I thought, and It just sparked one of those conversations that went in all sorts of unexpected directions as they often do. So yeah, we talked about neurodivengers, marriage, parenting, religion, engineering, breakdancing, memory, communication. ⁓ and what happens when you finally start joining the dots, of course, on this lifetime of experiences that we get to read in his book, and just never made sense until you discover your wonderful, beautiful. You're divergent brain. So, grab a cup of what is the the tea that was suggested to us. Let me have a quick look. This is important. What is the tea? Okay, so the tea was a Where are you? ⁓ the tea is an Assam Bold tea and biscoff bickies. Enjoy those things, settle in and enjoy my awesome conversation with Travis Alexander. stuff later. And I I don't I don't bother with ⁓ introductions. I do that later just to save time. Because it's like, what do you need to know about yourself? Yeah, yeah. No, I actually just recently listened to your last podcast with Sadie and ⁓ yes and I noticed that you you like to do the introductions at the very end. So yeah that's perfectly fine. It's usually 'cause I've forgotten. All those little social niceties is like, ⁓ no no no no no just get on with it. Yeah. That's it. That's it. How you doing? Good. I'm pretty good. my life is pretty chaotic right now, I'm not gonna lie. we have a a four month old baby girl. ⁓ congratulations. And commiserations at the same time. Yeah, I know, right. so yeah, I've like five or ten minutes ago I was on the floor rolling around with her, singing songs and keeping her occupied while my wife was in the shower. And ⁓ then I looked at the time like, ⁓ I've got to get this microphone and computer ready for for this ⁓ my god, so four months old. This is so this is something I was wondering in the book. I'm like, ⁓ is he is he are they gonna have kids? What's gonna happen there? 'Cause it wasn't there was nothing p specifically stated in there that was saying, ⁓ yeah, he's definitely, you know, thinking of that. Yeah, and this the story ⁓ the story sort of stops just after getting married. So I haven't really sort of k haven't I mean, people are saying I should write a second book about the next chapter of my life with being a father. but but yeah, no, it's it was yeah, having children, it's it's something that it's it's a it's a very it's a as as you would know, 'cause I know you have children as well. Yeah. ⁓ it's a very big life decision to make. And ⁓ It's almost like you're you're at a crossroads. So you're either gonna be a parent or you or or you're not. You can't really do it half heartedly. Or you can. You just shouldn't. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Some people yes, there's probably a lot of people out there that yeah, d don't take the job as seriously as others. But my wife's a nurse, so it was always gonna be a serious like like we're we're seriously doing this or we're we're seriously going our separate ways. Yeah. ⁓ from her perspective, she was just absolutely adamant that she was looking to have kids. I'm sure her family were absolutely pressuring. Yeah, yeah, there was a bit of a a little bit, but like her her family ⁓ they live overseas. So and you know, she's from overseas, so I guess I wouldn't see much of that pressure. ⁓ I was sort of ⁓ thousands of kilometres away from that. But You got the pressure when you were over there though. I did, yeah, yeah. I'm impressed you've y y you remember that part of the story. Anything to do with parents. I know, right? I know. ⁓ man. So you you became a Catholic. Correct. When you were Yeah. Yeah. growing up you're growing up in Australia, you know As and probably the same for yourself. R religion is not a friend of mine. We don't take it very seriously. but yeah, certainly overseas. yeah, there was no way I could marry my wife without yeah, being baptized and being confirmed Catholic. So Right. There's a bit of work. Bit bit of work involved. Yeah. It's that's this is an interesting ethical conundrum that I wouldn't mind asking you about because when we were talking about ⁓ ⁓ doing the whole Godfather thing and baptism, I I said I can't do that because part of the whole baptism pro promise or sorry process is that I'm making a promise that I will bring my children up as Christian children and that's not gonna happen. ⁓ so I couldn't I just couldn't do it. We we found an an alternative way of doing that. ⁓ so how how did your ethics cope with going through that process? You know? Becoming a Catholic w how were you actually into it? Not so much. No. ⁓ I've pretty much grown up like I've never like I we did some r some religious education in primary school, but I did not regularly go to church. I didn't go to Sunday school. my parents ⁓ are very Australian, very very laid back. ⁓ you know, my dad's my dad's religion is is football and and meat pies and and beer. And kangaroos and holding cars. That's it, yep. but no, I was never f never forced or, you know, surrounded with with religious beliefs at all. so but I've always tried to keep sort of an open mind to that thing 'cause, you know You know, really I guess there's no physical proof whether things exist or w whether they don't really use it. You just you either you believe in it and you you hope that the There's something out there that Yep. or you just don't give a shit. So Exactly. Yeah. You go, I think, therefore I am, which leaves a lot open, but is that trust in certain elements of the fact that we exist or we don't. I w I was Christian for a short time, then I was part of an Eastern religion b after that. And then actually bizarrely for me, it was when kids came along that I became I suppose if I am something, it would be humanist or I would call myself a a nihilist humanist and you know ⁓ but I've always found religion absolutely fascinating so when you had to study it how did that work for you yeah so I guess I did I did two sessions with a with a priest but even the priest was like because he sort of understood the background that I had come from and he was he was Australian as well so he wasn't it wasn't like He wasn't like you have to know this, you have to know this, you have to know this. He gave me a general overview of the Catholic religion. Yep. ⁓ this this is in Australia, by the way. ⁓ I thought it was over there. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So o over over there was a different story. ⁓ but in Australia, I I was confirmed Catholic in Australia at at St. Patrick's Cathedral. Okay. East Melbourne. Yep. And the process to that was really just like a lot of paperwork, a lot of proof to say that I was Australian, that I was baptized and yeah, we had that the whole ceremony which was which was fun. Yeah. and then all those all those documents were then sent overseas and had to be verified by the Catholic diocese in ⁓ in Thailand. So there was all that all that part of it too. But that that part of it was taken much more seriously than the the Australian side. Yeah. Okay. ⁓ Yeah. So it was it was overseas where I I r I had to sit down and do a test, ⁓ had to do a confession of my sins. and I had that interview with the ⁓ with the lawyer that I was talking about in the book. ⁓ that was just firing questions at me nonstop, wanted to know my entire history of where I'd come from, you know, girls that I had dated and slept with. so you wanted to know everything. Yeah, yeah. which like I had no heads up for that. Like that was I was just thrown into that. ⁓ man. That's being pushed on a stage without an act. Ladies and gentlemen, would you please welcome on stage to ever stand? Yeah. Wow. I know. ⁓ my god. I know, right? That's interesting. So confessionals again it comes back to this this idea of ⁓ when's it okay to ⁓ stretch the truth or not, or whether you just outright say exactly what. You know, we were you sort of pressured to be careful with some of the things you might have said? So are you talking about in the book or actually talking with the When you were over there and you were having those discussions and you were going through the confessionals and ⁓ being asked all these questions, like how blunt were you? I was I was pretty close to the truth just because I'm pretty sweet and innocent. I don't have much to hide. Like I'm not like a I'm not like a secret bad boy. I've I mean off ⁓ I mean you would have read from the book that I have done some silly things, but ⁓ and obviously a lot of that I didn't talk about, which I didn't need to. Yeah. But but you know, I've never like I'm I'm not notorious. ⁓ I'm not ⁓ and you can Probably tell from talking to me, I'm not I'm I'm pretty easy person to talk to. so yeah, I gave this gave this lawyer a general overview of of where I'd come from and and what okay what what my dating life was like. but his whole his whole objective was to try and find out whether I'd I'd ⁓ gotten someone pregnant. okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cause ⁓ Falling pregnant before marriage is a big no no over there. So I totally get that. Yeah. But he didn't tell me that for the beginning, so ⁓ No. It's nice to get ⁓ particularly for a neurodivergence, we like to get a little heads up before things start. That was Yeah. And in the arts and so forth, and it's it's a big part of here's what to expect. ⁓ When you're about to go here. And that's something that most most society and cultures do not do that as a normal thing. You know, but it's really useful for us to be given that sort of warning, wouldn't you think? Yeah, I think we, you know, being autistic, ⁓ you like to have all the information at hand so you can mentally prepare yourself on what to say and rehearse those conversations. ⁓ before you're sort of thrown in there in the in the deep end and have to sort of think on the spot because we don't I don't think we think on the spot very well, do we? I I've learnt to because I was undiagnosed for forty eight years and ⁓ I've you know I've I've got a family that's very social and so yeah I I developed that as a skill set. That's the way I see it. And so I can be sort of thrown into a position where I've had to sort of come up with something pretty quickly. And I 'cause I write stories too and I you know that imaginative side of things is I find a a little bit of fun as well. So there's that motivational aspect I think to how we get skills and learn. You know, I'm sure you you've you've I know you've got that over the over the years. You know Yeah, yeah. I mean I wasn't as fortunate as yourself and to know that early that I was I was different. But I guess through just Just sheer broken. Just throwing myself into situations ⁓ unprepared and ⁓ learning the hard way is certainly the way I've ⁓ just have had to cope over the years. Yeah. That was so interesting that you went you went away on a trip, holiday, whatever you want to call it, with these two girls who one you knew and one you didn't. That's right, isn't it? Yeah. I it it reminds me of when I met people online when there was forums and so forth earlier on, you know, the early two thousands or whatever, and I was watching Strain Idol and then I was going onto the forums and we I I became friends with a few people on there. And at one point we all decided to go and meet up in Tassie at one of their houses. And my wife came along as well, and it was disastrous. It was a really poor choice to to to to To to go off and do that. And my wife within an hour is looking at me going, What have you done? ⁓ Yeah, that's and you were there for a long time. And you you I it was it was so interesting 'cause yeah, you were trying to explain yourself. They were trying to explain themselves, but there was that that that gap that wasn't understood yet between either you or the other person. There was a disconnect that we all picked up early on. And ⁓ I thought it was at the time I just thought it was like a girl versus boy thing, you know, I've got a I'm a guy, your girls, you know, you you want things done a certain way, whatever. But yeah, and traveling with someone and and living with them twenty-four seven is very different to, you know, catching up for a coffee ⁓ for an hour or meeting in a a nightclub or whatever. you know, you're gonna learn the ins and outs of someone pretty quickly when you're traveling with them. so yeah. My advice for anyone that wants to travel, just s s seriously think about the person and who they are before you you j jump into the deep end and and go overseas with them. I think that comes with every aspect of your life though. Like I think, you know, ⁓ I'm not sure if you've had the same sort of thing, but I've I've been a people pleaser and I've said yes to things or being part of things. I d I never really wanted to. but I felt like I was I it was very impolite and wrong of me to say anything. Yeah. I think learning how to say no and to say it pol politely with with respect is is a a s a social skill that's does not come easy for someone on the on the spectrum. Yeah. ⁓ so their their natural default is to just say say yes 'cause it's just easier. Yes, I'll do that. Yes, I'll go there. Yes, I'll pick that person up at three am in the morning from from a bar 'cause they have no other way of getting home. Yep, I've done that. You feel guilty if you say yeah. Sorry, hang on a second. The internet's down. Don't interrupt on in a podcast at the moment, mate. I it's it's down, okay? Do something else with your time. Why? Close it off. So you've got the internet issues and if it's the talk of the town. People can't cope. Sorry, go on with what you were saying. Do you remember? I don't A world without internet. My God, yeah, it's just the end of the world. But he's just finished tennis, so he's you know, that's his his quiet, relaxed time, so I can understand. Th the the the job you're in now, so you're ⁓ an engineer. That that's right, isn't it? ⁓ science and engineering Particularly and you're doing an you're working in medical medical tech n medical technology industry. Correct, correct. So what does that mean? So I've had a few different jobs over the past well, probably two years, but previously I w Yeah, previously I worked for ⁓ a medical ⁓ a global corporate medical company that ⁓ like manufacture and supply ⁓ like cameras like the cameras that doctors doctors and surgeons ⁓ surgeons are using in things like gastros gastroscopies, colonoscopies. ⁓ basically if there at any hole in the body, this this company that kind of I can't say the company's name obviously, but you know, they've they've developed a camera that can go in that hole and, you know, take pictures and find out what's going on. I've I've experienced that with my vocal cords. over the years I've had polyps and you've had polyps, haven't you? I have, yes. Yeah, that's right. That's one of the things. I had them I used to get them as a kid in the throat. So I used to have operations to deal with that. And I think because it hurt afterwards, I was changed in the way I was using the muscles around my vocal cords and everything. So ⁓ I I get very tired, it gets very sore. So they did they did the camera up the nose. Which is horrible 'cause I have a gag reflex. ⁓ but I've got a video which I I kept of me making the different sounds and watching the the vibrations, you know. It's awesome to see. I love that. It's pretty cool. Some of the te technology we have today is is incredible. have you heard of a thing called the endocapsule? Isn't that the one that you swallow and it just keeps sh flashing lights and taking Pictures? Yeah, yeah. It's it's literally it's the size of a little tablet with a camera lens inside that that people swallow. And ⁓ it's wirelessly connected to like a console where so you can actually see you can see live video of this pill traveling through someone's all the way through someone's gastrointestinal tract and their large intestine, small intestine before it makes its way out the rear. I might have to I might have to do a live A live event next time I do it then. I know, I know. But yeah, it you can take pictures and doctors use that to to diagnose diagnose different conditions. So it's pretty cool. It's it's awesome. It's so cool. And so are you still doing that kind of thing or have you onto something a bit different? No. So I've actually just started a new job and I'm I think you might be interested in this one. I'm a a biomedical engineer, but the machines I'm working on are for very, very different purposes. I I service, maintain and repair embalming machines. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I I was looking at that as a as a career at one point to actually ⁓ to be either into sort of going to the houses and dealing with with the bodies after someone's died, or being at that end of of things as well. I'm fascinated by it. Okay. There you go. So you do with a fluid. Have you put yourself in the experience of what it looks like and how it's how it's actually done? Not yet. I've only been doing it for the last three months. Yeah. ⁓ but I'm you know I'm I'm talking with clients every day if that work at from at funeral homes that have to that are using these machines day in, day out. So I I've got a I've got a pretty good idea on how they're used and what they're used for, but ⁓ I'm sure an opportunity will come up soon where I'm like, ⁓ would you like to come and see how we use it? And from a learning perspective it'd be fantastic actually. So would. Do you want to? Is it a is there an ick factor for you or is that something you can deal with? Good question. I think as time goes on I'm gonna get more and more curious as to how they're used. ⁓ and I think ⁓ and this is just the way my brain works, any any extra bit of knowledge or any any extra insight that can improve my ability to do my job, I'll I would probably just take the risk and just walk in there and see, you know, see a dead body on a on a on a bench and watch them being pumped up with these with these chemicals and gases. So Yeah. ⁓ I think that's that's the way our brains tend to work, that we need to have a lot more sort of information, sensory information to come in and add to that understanding of things. Yeah, I went through the experience of of of slaughtering a pig, you know, because I like my ate meat and I thought, well, I I I need to I need to put myself through that. You know? to see if I'm okay with it because if I'm not okay with it I'm I I won't be eating meat, you know. Yeah. Interesting. ⁓ and how was that experience for you? How'd you feel after that? it was it was uncomfortable, particularly at the start because you know there was we're talking about a working farm and you know there was three pigs. One of them wasn't s wasn't handled so well. So that was that was difficult to watch. ⁓ but the the the whole process it was it was it was both fascinating and ⁓ humbling and I was being ⁓ I was I was respecting how this planet has worked over all these billions of years and this is this is what happens. And this is we this is what we're eating and this is what other animals eat and ⁓ to to go through all that, the smells, the all those extra elements, ⁓ paint a bigger picture for me because I I can't ⁓ I can't picture visuals in my head. So if if if I asked you to picture an apple in your head, can you? We this you've heard this on the podcast, the the last one I did was Sadie. You yeah, yes, you definitely s spoke about this with Sadie. Yeah, I mean it's always a red apple that comes up in my head. It's never a green one. you can picture a red apple, you can actually picture the An apple. If if I if I focus very c very ⁓ very hard I could I could do it, yeah. But it doesn't say it there for very long. No. But it makes sense 'cause you have got a memory, a good memory, and I haven't. So you've been able to r remember things to talk about in your past. I couldn't I can't do that. I can't I can't go back and remember an event from from high school. Right, okay. Very well, you know. Yeah. which is interesting because they say that like ⁓ most or many people on the spectrum have amazing long term memories. They they can recall details from years and years ago. I can for music and things like that, but ⁓ but other elements absolutely not. Okay. No. So it's always fascinating when I read stories like like yours you've actually gone back and been able to to do that. I I've got ⁓ I've been writing diaries since my ⁓ we're finding out we're gonna have a baby and my my diary is two novel links standard novel links long now. ⁓ wow but it's all over the shop and a lot of the memories ⁓ probably memories that someone else has told me I have if that makes sense. Yeah. Or I've stated as factual things. Here's this house, here's that house. And that's sometimes helped me remember something about that you know that place or that time. ⁓ but it's it's it's bizarre and it's it's always a weird thing. And I don't know how many times you've gone through this where you've you've learned about ⁓ something called like severely deficient autobiographical memory, and then you've gone, ⁓ there's a name to that, and I've got that. Yeah. Yeah. that's yeah, how the whole sort of journey started. I sort of started linking all these personality traits with you know, ⁓ Dr. Tony Atwood's ⁓ complete guide on aspo Asperger syndrome. And I'm like, ⁓ that's the reason I did that in high school. ⁓ that's the reason that person told me to F off years ago when I said that. and then it just it joined the dots and that's how the stories evolved and ⁓ made it quite entertaining. So it is. And I I don't want you to tell that the story that pu most people would probably r remember when they reach your book because I think one want people to go and read it, it's ⁓ and it that would be a spoiler because it's it's a it's it's a it's a very funny but also it's very telling. ⁓ it's ⁓ it could be there's a there's a sad element to it. There's a whole lot going on isn't there with with things like that where we've had to try and I don't know salvage some sense of for the of the moment and what we need to do about it. Yeah. It's all about yes, navigating our way through different situations and the way that we might navigate or like I guess the stairway that we would take ⁓ to navigate a situation would be very, very different to someone who's neurotypical. ⁓ that you know, their response would be like, I I don't know how you did that, I would never do something like that. What why why did why did you do that? They they just can't understand. And It's not until I could wr sort of write it down and put it into a story when I could sort of understand it better myself. and I think, you know, right now you know, in Australia we we ⁓ there are more and more people becoming aware on what these conditions are and how how they can affect behaviour and and communication. But yeah, we still have ⁓ we still got a lock a long way to go before we all sort of we can put all the pieces together and get a complete overall picture on on what's going on. So ⁓ man, yeah, just the the the way we define things and put things in in bubbles of concepts like autism is just you know, it's it's getting to the point where it's just completely nonsensical, which is why I tend to just use Neurodivergent now as a a better explanatory tool, 'cause it's ⁓ it's a bit a bit more all encompassing, 'cause we're all so different. Absolutely. A hundred percent. Like Yeah, both you and I would have yeah, we'd have similarities, but at the same time but there'd be things that you know both of us could do that are very, very different, like as of met the the memory that you just touched on before. So Yep. ⁓ yeah. And some of the stuff that you're into, like ⁓ breakdancing and running. ⁓ I I think that's the element of probably ⁓ an ADHD element where it's a bit more like my son who's ⁓ He is very much into all those sorts of things and I'm more interested in I'll sit there and watch an eight hour documentary. Silently, quietly, you know, for that whole time and be fine. But ⁓ and I think most most people would be the same. Like breakdancing is not something that many people do at all. but ⁓ and even I like even I wasn't I've always been athletic, but even like breakdancing is it puts you you know you're putting your body in very awkward and ⁓ uncomfortable positions and it was a while it was it was probably at least a year or two before I sort of started to become more comfortable with it. So I just kept kept at it. Yeah, I just find it so beneficial for like my mental health and just ⁓ yeah, like r reducing my stress levels and even like when it comes to break dancing, you know, your or any dancing for that matter, I think that because we have you know, we have troubles expressing ourselves and and and communicating, often You know, I break dance and I'm it's almost like I'm communicating and expressing myself to the music. So it it it it r it replaces it replaces what I can't do verbally. which it's a fantastic release. And I think, you know, many people on the spectrum probably find themselves in ⁓ like arts careers and, you know ⁓ ac activities that involve ⁓ you know, drama or acting or or dancing just Because of that. Because of that fact. I I have to ask about Rachel Gunn. What what did you think of her? You know, should I tell you what I think before you say anything or should I wait? No, no, f I'm I'm I'm I I invite you to go first, that's fine. I thought it was awesome. And when I saw her do what she was doing, I saw traditional Aboriginal dancing. as as playing a part in it where a lot of those ⁓ those, you know, dances that are, you know, twenty, fifty thousand years old are replicating a kangaroo or or something like that. You know, that it's actually telling a story. And I thought she did a really interesting, you know, combo between the two world views or the world, you know, I I thought it was awesome. Yeah, yeah. And I your like what you've just shared there is probably probably one of the most positive opinions on the whole Ray Gun thing. Most of what I hear is very negative. ⁓ Even like from my friends and family that ⁓ yeah that know that I break dance and stuff. They yeah, not a lot of people supported what supported what you did. But I think a lot of people don't understand the the the whole context behind it too. So I'll try and I'll try and give some some deeper insight into what like the whole the whole thing. Because I've ⁓ the the breakdancing community in in Australia is very it's very small. Everyone sort of knows each other. ⁓ and there's been competitions where I've I've seen Ray Gun ⁓ battle before before she became before she became Ray Gun. so I think a few things I'll say. One, the breakdancing talent in Australia is is is is ⁓ very it's it's it's it it will never match the talent that's overseas. ⁓ places like America, Europe and you know, China, Korea, Japan, the breakdancing talent there is is far better than anything in Australia. So before Ray Gunn went and represented Australia at at Paris, she would have known that before she's got like I've got no hope in beating these girls. Their their power, the skill they've got is insane. I can't match anything. Yeah. So what I think she's tried to do is try to get creative and Try something out of the box to impress the judges to get to get some points. And it it was probably working well until she did the kangaroo thing, which yeah obviously Australia kangaroos, it's it's the there's the connection, but with breakdancing, it's you sort of gotta be you've gotta create you've gotta combine your creativity with with breaking. So And there's different moves you can do in braking. So, you there there's windmills, there's flares, there's air flares. And you can you can be creative within that span of moves, but if you jump out of the circle and just try something completely different that doesn't rel relate to breakdancing, it can Yeah, it can obviously go the other way, which which which what happened? ⁓ you know. The Yeah, people all over the world started, you know, mocking her and and saying some very nasty things. And they I g there was actually another girl that represented a d another country. ⁓ I can't remember what if it was like it was like a Middle Eastern country that was she was her outfit she was wearing something was was ⁓ was anti anti anti war or something. She w it was very political. Mm. And no one really spoke about that. Everyone was speaking about Ray Gun. So You know, and like you know, having those political messages doesn't relate to breaking either. That's that's completely separate as well. So you know, she wasn't the only one ⁓ taking risks. But yeah, I guess that doesn't really give you my opinion of it. I I'm sort of dodging Well what do you think of that? What do you think about what I'm saying? 'Cause y if you've you've watched various like Aboriginal tribal dancing and it is very, very similar in that that sort of And and I know for a fact that over here a lot of people mock that dancing as well. And I I saw a correlation between those two things is that we we don't respect the some of those forms of of dance and story because we don't understand them and we have this, you know, white guilt underlying everything without a proper understanding and respect for what an incredible culture they have. You know, and they just it's just something it doesn't it seems weird, so let's just mock it. Yeah. and it's I think it's just almost it's almost easier in a way to mock something than to ⁓ you know, respect and and show some understanding as well. And I think it's like the the internet trolls and Jimmy Fallon and all those other famous people out there, they just sort of just jumped on the the ray gun bandwagon just started h mocking her, which it is obviously That's completely the wrong way to look at it. but my my personal perspective, I I think there's a time and a place to be creative. And I don't think she chose the right moment for that. ⁓ in in her routine. ⁓ and it it's almost cause those they call them OGs, the the guys that have been breakdancing for years and years and understand the culture and and the you know where it's come from, where it's originated. would have look would have looked at that and gone, that's a bit of you like by doing that on a world stage to represent breakdancing is disrespectful. so there would have been a lot of the the a lot of the breakdancing community were w were calling it out, just going, that's not breakdancing. and it sort of I I kind of I do share that same feeling of it, but at the same time, you know, I I'm like so she sort of she sort of took a risk and she had nothing else to do. So she sort of just tried something and it and it failed, unfortunately. So Yeah, because I I I would the way I would see it is I would say, well, Jimi Hendrix in Woodstock played the national anthem on his guitar. And that was at that stage, that was a no-go. Yeah. That was seen as disrespectful. ⁓ and all the things that you mentioned, if you s took out her and added Jimmy instead, you'd probably have the same thing. And so for him it worked. But even b even at the time there there was a lot of backlash. Yeah. About whether he's being disrespectful or not. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, th there's so many different angles you can talk about Ray Gunn. Yep. But Most importantly we probably should be like the focus should be her and how she feels about it. But and Exactly. And I think immediately after she would have regretted what she did. However, I think as time went on, she's now famous. She has an agent. She's been on cruises with Sir Richard Branson. ⁓ and everyone knows who she is now. So she's probably like I think now she'd be like, I'm actually I I I don't have any regrets anymore. I th I'm actually really glad that I did that. So which I can sort of relate to. It's it's probably s it's similar to what I've done and the things I did in my book. Immediately after I regret them, but then over time the regret goes away and you're like, you know what, I'm actually glad that happened because if that ha if I didn't do that, then that wouldn't have led to this, wouldn't have led to this. Right. And there's like a domino effect of things that happen as a consequence. And yeah, I think that's where Ray Gun would be right now in her her mindset. Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I haven't sort of seen a lot in like long term how she's ⁓ handling all this sort of stuff. It's yeah, it'll be interesting to see. with with with your book, I also another thing that really jumped out for me was the you know, the struggles that your then girlfriend was going through trying to understand why you weren't able to give her what she needed. Well you know, love languages being d ⁓ different and you not being able to verbalise what the hell was going on 'cause you didn't know either. So I just wanted to know more about what that happened once she sort of s started to understand why that was happening. Yeah. Just trying to think how to give you a good answer. I still have some of those struggles. It's still happening with me and my wife. Okay. And it still happens, it still happens with me and and my wife too. So unfortunately, I think it it's probably like a lifelong struggle. ⁓ because ⁓ you know, our wives have this ⁓ this cup that needs to be filled. Yes. And ⁓ if we're not continuously following up and filling in that cup. It runs on empty and when it gets too low, that's when well, f for me, I don't know about yourself, but I I find it hard to keep tabs on how low and high that cup is. So Absolutely So it seems to it seems to just all of a sudden drop out of nowhere, get very, very low, 'cause I haven't done enough of what I'm supposed to be doing. Yep. And it just turns into arguments and, you know, it's not it's not until my wife is sort of yelling in my face when I'm I'm like ⁓ Yes I'm like shit danger danger And you're surprised? I get surprised. I'm like Yeah but I thought I was I thought I was I was being really helpful. Yeah Yeah. And and you start like relaying of of all these like examples of things that you've done, yeah. You've you've taken out the bins, you've cleaned the toilet, you've cleaned the shower, I've done this, done that, done that. Yeah. But Not each one of those things necessarily r relate to filling her cup. Exactly. And it can just take one thing. ⁓ my God. I did I literally just did it yesterday. You know, where there's with a with a family member who's been stressing her out. and then I you know, I listened and I was, you know, I was I was trying to be, you know, caring and understanding. But then I just I made one comment. Where I said, well, I you can see where that where you get that from. And it was like, ⁓ no. And I th I thought I was being I didn't think I was being rude or anything like that. Or I was I just so well that's a fact. That's that's a simple fact. You know, it shouldn't be surprising. So, you know, why are you shocked and getting angry at me? Yeah. Yeah. It was bad timing. You know, it was bad timing. Yeah. I I feel like ⁓ 'cause I've I've listened to your ⁓ last podcast too with Sadie. Some of the things that you've described that are challenging between you and your wife, I feel like I've got that some of the some of those same similarities. Yeah. My my wife's very sensitive, so I've got to be careful how I say things. you know, if I come across too short, too blunt, she sort of she she finds it offensive. And yeah, as you've said, like if if I say things that don't necessarily need to be said, but I I say them anyway, it's like it's it's too much and it just causes it causes arguments. It does. It's it's it it's it's a small version of what's happening out there in our culture where I get annoyed that why are we the ones who have to keep changing and accommodating? From ⁓ from our end, shouldn't there be some give and take? So That's a relationship as well. I mean, for anyone. But particularly some of these things are innately just, you know, ⁓ s we may never be able to do that. And and it's a literal it's a physical thing. It's literally the way we are structured. We'll never be able to do that naturally. ⁓ we'll be able to work on it, but it's never gonna be perfect. It's never gonna work out the way you you probably want it to. So w how do you think they're how how does it go from your end? Do you think she's able to start thinking about those sorts sort sorts of things and backing off a bit? I mean I ⁓ when when it's too much I get her I I tell her that, you know, she needs to just give me a few minutes to calm down 'cause you know I've got a Yeah. Yeah, I've got ⁓ what's it called? Rejection sensitive dysphoria. So Me too. So yeah. Like I've you know, we we have our cups as well. So if you s if you start Yeah if you start ⁓ verbally abusing us, it drops things in our cup and and that gets to a point where, you know, we're gonna either lash out or or fight or flight. We're ever gonna do the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, just walk away. That's ⁓ is often the case. It's a really good thing. Yeah. I think sometimes to go, well, I'm not I'm not s I'm not getting this. ⁓ or they're not getting this. So I think sometimes it's better just to go have some time, you know, to reflect on it and ⁓ but it's it makes it very, very difficult for her because it it's I'm naturally more than happy to be alone ⁓ all the time. If I you know, I I don't need any of that sort of stuff. I don't naturally ask anyone how they're going or you know, but I care about them. It's just that that's not how I go about showing that care. Yeah. Exactly. Yep, I'm the same. I I'm happy to be alone for large periods of time. ⁓ and you know, my wife is very, very much physical touch, needs to be told that I I love her every every second day when I'm like, i isn't it obvious, like I'm still here after all these years. Well c why do I need to keep saying it? but she needs to hear it. So your book shows it very much. Your book very, very eloquently shows how much you do. I think. ⁓ thank you. Thank you. You know, it's yeah, it's it's I th I think it's a it's it was a lovely story that even though there was that difficulty of her. But I remember one of one of my special interests is listening to Carl Pilkington ⁓ and Ricky Gervais on some podcasts they used to do and he's got a great neurodivergent mind where he's just like ⁓ he said ⁓ You know, I think we have a he's saying about his girlfriend, I think we ⁓ you know, we've got a good relationship. ⁓ you know, I'm happy. You know, it's like I know I'm happy, but he didn't actually think, well what if she is? I'm I'm happy. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ God, so you're in s you're into for some shit ahead of you then. Like it with with a heads up baby and it's Yeah. Well, but in in many in different facets. So one is ⁓ Yeah, when I had my first kid, I I I I f I relied on the band The National a lot. Okay. The National have he's got a very low, calming voice. And I would go off for walks and just listen to the National and that was my way to regulate. because I was trying to do as much as she was. I was trying to do all the ⁓ staying up all night and then going to work the next day and ⁓ You know, I was just burning myself out because I just wanted so much to be a part of it, but it was just not in the ⁓ not in a practical way. You know. And so yeah, that's it's it's an interesting thing. Obviously, the lack of sleep it can be very challenging. ⁓ but then yeah, providing that support, I think in the end it's kind of you gotta just gotta keep asking, don't you? What what you do? What do you need? Why do I have to ask? That's exactly I that was that was my that was gonna be my response. You took the words out of my mouth. ⁓ if I ask the question, it's like don't ask, just do. So ⁓ but if I don't ask, I don't know. So No, that's right. It's it is. I love that that's starting to build with our relationship too. I've and the way I'm doing it is I'm trying to I'm finding it hard to explain what it is. It I'm almost trying to simplify my language to that of a younger person, a kid, to say, you're hurting my feelings right now, or ⁓ I I just want to, you know, I I really want to do the best thing for you. I'm finding if I s really simplify the language, because I'm never going to win an argument. At least if I try and simplify it from my end, maybe there's some some ways that we can actually she can learn to Tell me what she needs. Give you some leeway. Yeah. Give you some leeway. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I you've got you've got other stuff to worry about now. I mean you're you got you've got a focus, it's different anyway, so y that's and that's a good thing. But have you thought about what if your kids neurodivergent as well? Yeah. I mean yeah, it it's far too early to tell whether our daughter is neurodivergent, but I mean Yeah. I don't even know. I don't I guess I from a fathering point of view I'd probably be very understanding and it could teach them sort of tips and tricks of of ways to navigate the world, which is what I've done. Yeah and help help them avoid a worst case scenario or fill from learning the hard way. that'd be a hundred percent a massive advantage. and you know, hopefully they'd one day read the book as well so they could learn from that too. So ⁓ Yeah, that's why I did the diary. Yeah, g and we did we are doing that. Yeah. Well you know, I haven't told my son about it yet and he he he's only fourteen, he doesn't care. But ⁓ my my daughter's eighteen and so yeah, we'll she'll sit there and read it out back to me, which I dn didn't expect was gonna happen. Okay. You know. ⁓ so sometimes it's interesting having to listen to it. But ⁓ and then she gives her, you know, my the commentary. Yeah. Which is sometimes tough to listen to. But I think it's a I I look I love I love my kids. I love their neurodivergent minds. They're wonderful. But they have had to struggle. So from a parenting point of view, it is something to be prepared for. That it's gonna be more exhausting for longer if you want to do it right. Yeah. You know, it does take longer. The you know, kids stay kids a little bit longer, you know, they often can be, you know, a couple of years behind as far as like social sides of things and you know, developmental other areas. So there they're things that take into account, but if you I think I think f yeah, from that perspective the dad does have to step up a bit, I think, with i any way possible, whether it's admin or whatever it is, to to help, 'cause it's gonna be an exhausting thing. Yeah. And I think another thing that ⁓ and maybe this is what you're going through now, is being ⁓ almost like a a protector for when, you know, our our daughters or your daughters ⁓ starts dating and and choosing a choosing a guy 'cause obviously there's there's a lot of bad guys out there too. ⁓ so you've got to make sure that they, you know, they're they're safe and they choose the right guys and and stay away from the bad ones. Well, you know, from my perspective, I don't have to worry so much at the bat there, 'cause ⁓ it's more likely that I'm gonna have to look out for what sort of girl she's dating. ⁓ okay. Although she sh she does have a a particular obsession with Richard Iowati. So, you know, if a guy shows up that looks like Richard Iowati, I I do wonder whether that might be be something that she'll ⁓ hang on. I could deal with all the other stuff if it's if if if it's a bit like Richard. Yeah. ⁓ God. Emma's son doesn't care about that still. He's not really but I think based on the history of watching him, he's amazingly social. ⁓ he's he's particularly good at chatting the girls with the girls. So I can see that's gonna be very very tough 'cause he's gonna find it quite easy to Yeah, l unlike unlike us, where it was might have been a bit harder. Although you you seem to do pretty good. I think after high school, ⁓ yes, but during high school I d didn't didn't want to go near girls at all. No. I know I did and they just didn't care. They did not care. And my mother at the time had just said to me, like, you know, ⁓ ha have you maybe do you think you are gay? And then I'm like No, no, I'm not. I just I love girls, they just don't love me. Yeah. No, unfortunately I had those sort of obsessions early. You know, it was just it meant it was awful. Awful being in high school and not getting that. But then I met my wife in high school. ⁓ wow, you're high school sweethearts. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, so we've been together since ⁓ nineteen ninety. Jeez, that's going back a few years. Yeah. So I didn't have to worry about what you did. I didn't have to worry about the whole dating thing and all that sort of stuff that would have been not fun. No, it was it was horrible actually. and ⁓ I sort of held on to it for many years and it wasn't until I started writing about it when I sort fully understood what was going on at the time. ⁓ and Yeah, just the school I went to wasn't great either, so didn't make it easier. Was it Melbourne? Yeah, yeah, i it was. And I know that in the book I've mentioned Sydney and there's a few things I've I've changed to sort of ⁓ okay. Yeah. ⁓ bugger. ⁓ yes. So ⁓ I I think I've I think I might have understood this a little bit, but ⁓ you're ⁓ you we we all have different attractions. And you've mentioned a lot in the book that you're a attracted to, you know, a particular look. wha how would you describe it? Yeah. ⁓ anything f anything foreign really. okay, yeah. Do you think that's ⁓ from when I was reading ⁓ sort of you know those books on genetics and all these other things, they do say that during primary school time You tend to in a partnering up with someone who looks like someone from your primary school or similar in some way. Did you have a lot of diversity at your school? Absolutely not. I'm from I was from the outer suburbs, ⁓ where it was ninety ninety eight percent Caucasian, Australian. and everyone like family and friends that I grew up with, everyone has ended up with a partner of very very much similar grounds. So yeah, Australian, Caucasian, very typical of the upbringing. For some reason I just never wanted anything anything like it. I I've always searched for something different. I've always wanted ⁓ you know either you know I I like my I like my girls ⁓ dark a as as I pointed out in the the book. Movies, it's like for me it's ⁓ you know, don't worry you're safe, redheads. Yeah. I've I've I love redheads. And I think it was to do with Ariel, the little mermaid. I reckon there was some sort of little connection that got made in my brain, which I think happens a lot, where it's some there's something from your past that that was that stood out and you and you've made some sort of connection. Can you think of anything that might have done that? Maybe. I I can't pinpoint anything exactly, but you'll be thinking about it now. I know. There is Yeah, what has what has led me to make this decision? ⁓ And also stick with it too. Yeah. ⁓ It is if you think about going right back, you know, this whole tribalism thing that with that we're so, you know, stuck on, that yeah, you would want to partner up with but the the The weird thing is that from a genetic point of view, it's actually much better to to look for that sort of d diverse gene pool. Yeah. ⁓ from like a I guess ⁓ you know, immune system defense type of point of view and ⁓ yeah, they say that ⁓ you know halfy halfy children are the some of the they grow up to be very, very attractive and good looking. So That's right, yeah, Eurasian and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yep. That is that is totally spot on. That's so funny. and then then then there's us. Yeah, exactly, right? Yeah. I know. So boring. I know. Very vanilla. No, I married a POM. Yeah. Your wife's Pomy issue. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I was always obsessed with the whole the whole Scottish side of things and ⁓ But then I've done my, you know, ancestry and I'm more English than than anything else. Okay. That was it's that was a bit surprising. But it's very boring. It's very vanilla, as I like to say. Very vanilla. Yeah, it really, it really is. ⁓ my God. ⁓ yeah. Well so we've gone on for a a good amount of time here, and it was awesome. I think we covered off lots of lots of stuff there. ⁓ Did you I mean I'm gonna be obviously sharing ⁓ your Instagram websites and TikToks and all that sort stuff like that. But are you thinking about writing something else? Yeah, I've got that question a few times now. at this stage, no, because writing for me takes a lot of effort and a lot of time. And if I did that, time would be taken away from my wife and my child. ⁓ right right now, absolutely no. I think the focus for me will be to sort of market this book more and and talk more about it. Maybe make some fine tuning edits here and there if you've actually d did you find any mistakes at all, like any spelling errors or future Dan here. Travis did ask me about ⁓ the editing of his book and and how I how I thought it went, and I said it was fantastic and it really keeps you involved the whole way. It's it's wonderful. I mentioned that he was using particularly phrase quite often. And so I asked him what he felt about that, ⁓ whether that was a decision or not. Yeah, yeah. So there was two ways I I've I'm sort of a hardly half aware of this, and I was like, I could go back and change it, but at the same time, because I like because I'm autistic and I like things being the same. Yeah. Should I leave it there because that's the way that I am? You know? ⁓ it's the way I want to come across as repeated pat with With repeated patterns of behaviour to sort of show the readers, ⁓ he says that a lot. ⁓ that's because he's autistic, you know? So Yeah. But yeah, getting back to your question, I think I won't be w writing anything anything again anytime soon. So yeah. No. Because there is none. And, you know, I've and unfortunately for us, I mean, I've literally just gone and got hold of ⁓ a table. I went to some person's place on Facebook was free. But when I got there, there's all this other stuff. And I looked up and I saw this amazing old door, which is a big old 1940s office door with the word private on it. It's beautiful art deco. ⁓ and I'm like, ⁓ my god, you're not gonna throw that door out, are you? And he's like, I probably probably I might have to. Like, I look, I'll just take it. But then unfortunately, or fortunately, unfortunately, A lot of other stuff came with it, panels, other bits and pieces. So now I've got out here, I've got this jigsaw puzzle of wood that I have to try and make sense of, decide whether I sell it, decide where I put under the house. I certainly can't fit it in my house, you know. But at the same time I'm doing all these other little projects as well. You know, and it's just and then I get to the end of the weekend and go, I had didn't have time for any of this. I had I couldn't do anything properly. Yeah, that's that's the ongoing battle being neurodivergent, you know, y you're very quick to throw yourself into different, you know ha ha have your fingers in all the different pies. And at the end of the end of the week you was w you won't have you'll have all these pies, but none of them are complete. None of them are done. Exactly. That's why I a banjo in there. I've just got a drum kit over here I'm trying to learn at the same time. ⁓ wow. You know, that's what I mean about yeah I would I wish I didn't have to work 'cause I would have plenty of things to do. Yeah, me too. Need to. It'd be nice. Not having to work, but it'd be lovely. Now, is there anything else you wanted to plug or obviously this you know, obviously the book I'll be talking a lot about in the intro ⁓ as well and at the a and the outro. so I'll be telling them where to go and to to go and get it and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, no. Thank you so much for yeah, f for for the advertising. ⁓ Yeah, I mean it is available in in audio as well, so those that those people that don't like reading ⁓ can can listen. and I'll be giving a talk at ⁓ I'm booked to give a talk at the the s the Sydney ADHD conference later this year. ⁓ Yeah, so it was one in Melbourne wasn't there. Is that where where it was? I thought I saw pictures that you've that you went to some conference, but was where was that one? Yeah, so The one that you would have seen recently was ⁓ at the ⁓ Melbourne ⁓ Melbourne Convention Centre in South Wharf. Convention Centre, yep. ⁓ Yeah, I was half half wondering whether I should be, you know I don't know. I got can can a podcast have a stall? Does that make sense? I wasn't quite sure whether I should do that or not, you know. Yeah, you you're always welcome. The the invitation's always there, Dan. So I do a bit of work with ⁓ My Spirited Child, they're the company that organise all these conferences. ⁓ so yeah, it I I love it because it's just it it's one day of the year where you can sort of be yeah, you can guarantee everyone there is neurodivergent and you sort of everyone just understand each other. It's like a big massive big party. and yeah, I've been part of it for a few years now and I've yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't change it at all. So it's great. Yeah. And I I can imagine you get to the end of that day, you're not so exhausted as you would have been in ⁓ some other kind of conference. Yeah, it's like there's less There's less effort and that's needed to to to to communicate and speak with people. So Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's heaps of fun. Heaps of fun. Yeah. I'll yeah, I'll have to I'll have to do that. I'll just have to find the time. Yeah. It's that's that's the hardest part these days, is getting the time. ⁓ god. Well, I'm doing this this event that I've been doing at ⁓ at the round, which is in Narwading. Yeah, I've done twice now, so ⁓ I think they want to keep doing it every year. So that that does take a lot of work to to get that the I understand what it means for you with the promoting and side side of things. It's it's it's that's a it's a lot. I'll just turn my camera off again. ⁓ Yeah, I think you're breaking up a bit there. And so as Lady Internet once again departs, leaving me frustrated and alone again. So the interview ended up with me making a phone call to Travis just to finalize things, say goodbye and thank you and so forth. And that's what I'm doing here. You can get to hear the conversation from Travis's end without being able to hear what I have to say, but it was still funny anyway. So thanks again, Travis. It was awesome, and I look forward to seeing you all all. On the next episode. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. And I'll yeah, I'll keep in contact. I've got your number, I'll let you know, yeah, whether the download was successful and but nah th look, thank you so much for today. I really enjoyed talking with you, Dan. You're very easy to talk to and good bloke. Absolutely. and hopefully hopefully we can you know ⁓ we catch up in person one day. ⁓ No, I I'm I'm in Brunswick now. Yeah, I don't know, well it it seems to be a lot of a lot of new neurodiversion people around Brunswick too, I think, so. Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ that's me.