Jodi Lee: Hello and welcome to Covered, a podcast that helps you figure out what's going on in the news and how you feel about it.

Annie Pullar: Here to guide you through the biggest stories of the week, we are your hosts, journalists Annie Puller and Jodie Lee.

Jodi Lee: This week's episode we dive into

Annie Pullar: Radio veteran Alan Jones trial is finally underway in Sydney, and the evidence so far, I've got to say, has been hard to listen to. One alleged victim testifying that Jones groped him so hard while driving, the car actually veered off the road.

Jodi Lee: We also look at what's happening on the border between Morocco and a Spanish territory called Ceyuta might not be a migration crisis but an act of political blackmail.

Annie Pullar: And betting companies accused of supplying booze, bags of cocaine and escorts to keep gamblers gambling, all the details from a wild Senate inquiry. But first let's go to our honourable mentions. These are the stories that don't quite warrant a deep dive, but are worth getting your head across this week.

Jodi Lee: Yep, and the first one has Jetstar back in the bad books with passengers. Lo and behold, once again. This time the low budget airline has said it's going to charge passengers to use the overhead compartment on a flight. At the moment, if you travel Jetstar, you're allowed to take on board two bags, totaling seven kilos in weight. That's one small bag for the seat in front of you, and a larger bag that could fit up top. But from February next year, if you'd like to use that overhead compartment, it's going to cost. It'll start from $25 on shorter domestic flights and could go up to $52 for international flights. You will only be allowed to take a small laptop-sized bag to fit under the chair in front of you free of charge. This does bring Jetstar into line with other international low-cost carriers like Ryanair. Jetstar said that it made this decision because it knows that weighing your carry-on bags at the gate and trying to find space in the overhead is the most stressful part of travelling. I don't know, but only being able to travel with one tiny bag actually causes me a great deal of stress.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, I mean the jury's still out on that one. I have to say, I didn't think I could be any more annoyed by Jet Star, but I somehow am. Anyway, moving on. Home affairs minister Tony Burke was meant to have a really big week on migration. Instead, it's fallen extremely flat, pulling a major speech just 48 hours before he was actually supposed to deliver it. Now that speech was supposed to be held at the National Press Club. He was meant to unveil this massive crackdown, things like tougher family visa rules, a cap on backpacker numbers, all designed to bring net migration down across the country. But his office has somehow come out and said that it wasn't ready, despite the fact that a lot of media have been reporting that the changes were internally contentious. So while this big announcement continues to stall, Pauline Hansen is certainly capitalizing on Tony Burke's absence, with One Nation support bouncing. Right back in the polls, once again, level with Labour, riding almost entirely on Hansen's immigration message. So not a great week for Tony Burke.

Jodi Lee: No. and our final honorable mention this week is that there is a fight brewing between the head of the National Rugby League, Peter Volandis, and the Pope. There's something I never thought I would say.

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: But the NRL Grand Final in 2028 might actually need to be moved from Sydney because his excellency, I don't know, is that what you call the Pope? The Pope is coming.

Annie Pullar: Let's call him that.

Jodi Lee: Let's call him that. The Pope is coming to Sydney and he's set to host a massive mass at Randwick Race Course on the

Annie Pullar: Mm-hmm.

Jodi Lee: October long weekend, which is traditionally when the NRL grand final is played. So while the Pope will be giving his sermon at Randwick. basically, authorities say that it's too much pressure for New South Wales police and for Sydney's transport network to deal with that and the NRL Grand Final at the very same time. They haven't made a decision about how they'll solve this problem. Obviously, they're sort of a year and a half out. One suggestion was to move the grand final interstate, most likely somewhere like Queensland. the older option that has apparently been tabled is to bring the NRL Grand Final a week earlier, which we'll see it being played in September. lot like the AFL, but it means that if it is played a week earlier, New South Wales residents won't get a public holiday the day after the grand final. So it's massive news in the world of footy. Watch this space. Thank you, Pope.

Annie Pullar: Why does a Mass and Renwick racetrack just really not add up to me? But you know, we'll we'll welcome the Pope any day of the week. But let's move

Jodi Lee: It's hallowed holy turf.

Annie Pullar: let's move to our first story now. And I think there was really only one place to start, and that was the trial of veteran broadcaster Alan Jones. It's been one hell of a week if you've been following the developments of this trial, and probably has delivered all the punches that you would expect from one of The biggest names in Australian radio, history, who's now accused of indecent assault and sexual touching. It has been a complete media circus. The evidence has been explosive and genuinely confronting, I have to say, disturbing at times. This is all really just getting started. it's worth probably recapping though, Jody, who Alan Jones is for those under 40. Because I think we need to explain that to to put into perspective the scale of this trial.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, and I guess also if you don't come from New South Wales, Alan Jones was a massive shock jock on radio. He was so influential that he was said to have been able to, with a single spray on the air, actually shift and change government policy. but funnily enough, he didn't start as a journalist. He actually started as a coach of the wallabies in rugby union. So he's had incredibly storied careers in two massive industries that are traditionally incredibly Australian, right? Sport. and then the news media. he had prime ministers on speed dial, big sporting stars on speed dial, and he was a real just a mover and a shaker. But now we're seeing him in his eighties really sitting in a courtroom as a defendant.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and there had been rumors of this alleged indecent behavior for many, many years. There was an age investigation conducted by an investigative journalist called Kate McClimate, which ultimately led to the police investigation, which we now know as Strike Force Bonifan, and that was set up in about March twenty twenty four. Jones was arrested two years ago at his Circular Key apartment, in November, so just a few months after that investigation. Was really sparked. And at the height of this, he was facing 44 offences, and that related to eleven alleged victims. Over the past year, we've seen the case shift and change quite dramatically. Prosecutors have withdrawn about 22 of those charges, and five complainants have actually dropped out altogether.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, it's quite common in you see this quite commonly in sex assault cases. Prosecutors are very wary to take to court charges that they don't think will stack up. So they very often reduce the charges before they go to trial. And as we've discussed before, sex assault or alleged sex assault victims often don't feel comfortable testifying against their alleged offenders. So that there's no surprises there. What Alan Jones is now facing in court are 22 charges. They're 20 counts of indecent assault and two counts of sexual touching. They relate to six men, and the allegations stem between 2003 and 2020, so over a 17-year period. It's a real mix of men who allege that they were indecently assaulted by Alan Jones. Some of them worked for him in the media, on the radio. Two of them were elite sports people at the time. One is an Man that he met just at a public event, and one of the men was only 17 at the time that he alleges Jones assaulted him. Obviously, it's important to note that Alan Jones has pleaded not guilty to every single one of these charges and is defending them. It is a judge-alone trial, which means that it will only be up to a judge to decide whether or not he's guilty of these charges. That means there's no jury. So no members of the public will be a part of that. That's very often decided when somebody who has a large profile. File goes before the courts. They think that people could be skewed by what they do and don't know of the person standing trial, and so they often leave it in just a judge's hands. you know, Jones' legal

Annie Pullar: Hm. I

Jodi Lee: team actually tried to go really far even before this trial got underway, and they argued that even the media shouldn't be able to read the complainant's evidence at all. But the judge has obviously knocked that back. So the media has been able to.

Annie Pullar: I know. Yeah, and it's it's been a very theatrical start. I think we can call it that. almost like a showdown. So I think the fact that it's being seen by a judge certainly hasn't diminished the drama in any way. both sides kind of use when I say both sides, I mean the prosecution and the defense, use their opening statements to kind of set the different tones and put forward their arguments. If you listen to the prosecution, this is a case. you know, exposing almost like a common thread that all six men were too afraid to speak up, too indebted to Alan Jones, or too ashamed, as you mentioned off the top, to actually come out and bear all, knowing that that this was gonna end up widely spread across the media. The defense has obviously gone in the complete opposite direction. Alan Jones's defense barrister, Gabrielle Bashir. And I'll read you this quote. This is how she opened with it. She basically said this is a case about rivalry, treachery, double dealing, money, hatred, desperation, opportunism, and more are all at the heart of this. So I think that really sets the tone of where they're taking it all. She exposed what she called concoction, contamination, and reconstruction in the complainants' accounts, pretty much saying that they were all trying to r to rewrite history. And she actually singled out a few media characters as well, like Ray Hadley, who she claims were orchestrating a hit job against Alan Jones and using some of these alleged victims to do that.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, she's basically saying that these charges are the result of tall poppy syndrome in Australia. People who feel like Alan Jones didn't deserve the success and the fame and Presumably, the financial remuneration for the work that he did, and therefore they've sought to tear him down. But let's look at the main evidence that's so far been presented. It's all really hinged on the evidence of this one, this one complainant who's being known as complainant J. He was a promising young athlete at the time he says he met Alan Jones. And Jones sort of took him under his wing and became a bit of a financial benefactor for him. So complainant Jay has told the court that over a period of time, Alan Jones bought him a new mobile phone, later bought him a car, and actually was paying him a weekly allowance that grew over the time that they that they knew each other. And it's alleged, well he alleges, that Jones said that the money was so that he could focus on his sporting career.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it's almost like this complainant Jay became his pet. Or prodigy of sorts. Alan Jones was investing heavily into him. And this evidence has really dominated the week. I think it's caught so many people off guard. He pretty much says the first incident allegedly happened when they were actually driving to Alan Jones' Fitzroy Falls property. So they were in the car together. Apparently, Alan Jones was dozing off, going to sleep. And then the allegations are that he woke up suddenly, he put his hand on this complainant Jay's leg and actually. said to him, What is that? To which this complainant obviously didn't respond. And then Alan Jones then picked up and said, I thought it was your leg, well does it feel good? And apparently his hand sort of lingered there for about five to ten minutes. But that's not even the worst of what we've heard.

Jodi Lee: Complainant Jay said that the alleged indecent interaction continued that night. He said that Jones told him, you've got to remember there's only one rule here, and that is that there are no rules. Jones is alleged to have told complainant Jay to go and have a shower and then to come back wearing only a bathrobe. it's alleged that he touched him outside the robe and then pulled him close enough that their bodies were touching. And then Jay told the court that he was frozen at the time that this happened. He also gave evidence of further alleged incidents that same weekend at that property and again on a later visit to Jones Sydney apartment. The court was also showed bank statements from this complainant that showed fortnightly payments from Alan Jones to this young athlete. And those payments actually increased after alleged sexual incidents and decreased or tapered off as the two of them grew further apart. So what's most interesting is that Jay this complainant Jay hadn't actually come forward to police until until he saw that Alan Jones had been arrested in twenty twenty four. he said that he's a father now and that's kind of what prompted and motivated him to speak out.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and I think the oppos not the opposition, I'm sorry, the defence has had a field day. even with that. you know, fact that he didn't come out until he had heard the news because they're pretty much picking apart every layer of this story, saying that the reason he came out was because of money, that this was fueled by some sort of financial incentive because of Jones's stature and profile. it's kind of caused a stir, this cross examination. The judge actually placed an interim non publication over it, halfway through the week, basically saying that none of us I mean the media could actually report on what was happening. and that stays in place until this cross examination wraps up and then the judge is apparently gonna decide what if anything that we can report. But you'd have to think if they're putting a non publication order on it, that things were getting pretty heated.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, look, I think it's important to remember that in the Australian legal system, everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence until they're

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: proven guilty, and Alan Jones is certainly entitled to that. He has, as I said, pleaded not guilty to every single one of these charges. In a criminal case, the a Prosecution has to prove that a person is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. In a civil case, you only have to prove that somebody is guilty on the balance of probability, so it has to be basically 51% likely. But in a criminal case, you actually need to be proven b the charges need to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. So there's more than 70 witnesses that are expected to be called throughout this trial. It's likely to go on for months. There's so much that will play out, but I think it's just important to remember with somebody with such a large public profile that he is innocent until a court finds him guilty.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and and especially in a case like this. Historically we know that sexual offences in decent assault are really hard to prove and in this particular case it really is Largely hinging off a he said, he said situation because largely these offences are alleged to have occurred behind closed doors or when people weren't watching. So I don't know, it's been a wild week, I dare say it won't be the end of the wild scenes that we're expected to see. He's been flanked by his lawyers the entire time. I do want to leave you with this. Jones has been very quiet this entire trial, but he did leave court yesterday and he was actually smiling and basically told, you know, the media scrummer. Around him, you'll be right, just keep walking, as one of them nearly tripped over. So I don't know. he just seems unaffected by the whole thing, to be completely frank.

Jodi Lee: Cool, calm and collected. All right, well, let's move on to our second story. And there's no doubt that you would have seen these images or the footage already, even if you didn't know exactly what it was. We covered it as an honorable mention on last week's episode, but we figured it was worth diving into what is happening in this Spanish territory of Ceuta because the pictures are just alarming. It's obviously tens of thousands of people swimming around a headland and then clamoring up rocks, trying to break into the Spanish territory. Since we've seen those that footage, there's also been dozens of images of these migrants, for lack of a better word, living on the beach.

Annie Pullar: I mean when I saw these pictures, I feel like my social media was overrun with them within a couple of hours. But it's important to make the distinction that Seyuta isn't actually part of mainland Spain. It's actually an enclave in North Africa that borders Morocco. So over two days last week, as we all saw on our social media, an estimated 60,000 people pretty much crossed that border. Which, if you look at Sayuta's entire population, that's only about eighty-four thousand people. So we're talking a matter of forty-eight hours, this small town being overrun and absorbed by more than half of its population in new arrivals. And apparently most of them were young Moroccan Spanish men. Spanish officials have pretty much come out and said an estimated sixty nine thousand of those who arrived late last week have since gone back to Morocco. but there's still about two and a half thousand people who made that crossing believed to, you know, be settling in Sayuta at the moment.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, it's kind of crazy to think about it. Ceyuta has a population of like 84 or 85,000 people. So when close to 65,000 foreigners storm the shores, you can imagine how a tiny enclave or territory like that is just completely overrun. It's worth noting that 72 people died trying to enter the Spanish enclave. Some drowned when they tried to swim, others were crushed in a stampede as they tried to sort of climb up that breakwater. But I think what's most interesting is the question of where were the border police on the Moroccan side? Because it's meant to be a highly fortified border. and yet 65,000 people were able to pass through.

Annie Pullar: Well that was my first question, because it was like a genuine bull rush of people, which is not typical scenes that you would see on a border. And this is where we've sort of backtracked to understand the why. Apparently Spain's Supreme Court has ruled that migrants who are intercepted at sea can't automatically be sent back unless there's a physical barrier stopping them from reaching land. So this is a super narrow, super technical ruling about procedure, but what we're about to hear is that it's been twisted into something a lot bigger than that little narrow rule.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, so that exactly. so it is true that the Spanish Supreme Court handed down that ruling. for a moment, let's talk about this influx of people as a migration crisis, just for argument's sake. The first theory about how and why it unfolded is that that Spanish Supreme Court ruling somehow translated to civilians in Morocco as the border is open. And that that message spread like wildfire online and just kept gaining momentum. That's the kind Of official explanation that Moroccan authorities have given for why 60 odd thousand people just suddenly decided to move at once and to throw themselves into the ocean. But the question has been whether or not those people, as you said, who are largely like young Moroccan men from towns like Casablanca, is that are they really like hinging their life decisions on Supreme Court rulings? It sort of seems a little

Annie Pullar: I mean,

Jodi Lee: fishy.

Annie Pullar: it seems like a tall glass of water to think that, you know, this was social media misinformation that was being spread and and they were all just basically there at the same time. If you listen to Spain's Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez, he's been super careful about the language and the words that he's been using here. He hasn't exactly been pointing the finger at the Moroccan government directly. but Sayuta's regional president, this is the interesting part, has said out loud what Spanish officials have apparently been saying behind closed doors and that's that it's impossible for, you know, 60 odd thousand people to enter without the approval of the Moroccan government. And there's all of this. These reports that the Moroccan government essentially facilitated this. Like we apparently saw the border thin out in the lead up to this rush. So I think you have to ask the question: is there involvement here? Also, I was listening that apparently buses were orchestrated to get them to that crossing. So I think that this goes a lot deeper than what we're seeing on the surface.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, one of the interviews, CNN's had a number of reporters, I don't know if you've seen over the last two weeks, actually walking the beach in Sayuta talking to migrants. And one of the

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: reports I saw was of a young man who said that he alleges that when he got to the border in Morocco, the border police stepped aside and started yelling, swim, swim. Like they were actively encouraging them.

Annie Pullar: Encouraging. Yeah. So it was it it seems like it was orchestrated.

Jodi Lee: Well, that's what one of one of the theories is, right? But I think it's also worthwhile that we zoom further out and look at the context. What would be happening between Morocco and Spain? What's h happening in northern Africa? What's happening in Europe that could potentially cause people to suggest that Morocco may have had something to do with this?

Annie Pullar: Well, like all conflicts playing out, it all comes back to territory, right?

Jodi Lee: It's either territory or religion. I was astounded to read that this actually isn't the first time there's been a migration crisis from Morocco into the Spanish territory of Ceuta. About five years ago, almost 10,000 people crossed over into the Spanish territory, and at that At time it was alleged that it had something to do with like a a COVID treatment disagreement between Morocco and Spain. But it was very much a geopolitical decision.

Annie Pullar: but it seems now experts are saying that this latest flash point could actually be over this long-running territorial dispute that's been happening between Morocco and Algeria, which is obviously in North Africa. The details we probably won't get into because we'll be sitting here for far too long. But Spain's stance, I think, is important to understand because Spain has previously sided with Morocco as this territorial dispute has been playing out. But in the last month alone, Spain's prime minister has actually come out trying to patch things up with Algeria. He even visited the country. So I think it's that diplomacy that's angering Morocco, which has potentially caused this border rift. I don't even want to call it a migration crisis because I don't even think it's that. Yeah.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, border rift is nice. Let's keep it at border rift. But regardless of what might be happening in the region and the fact that it may not be a migration crisis, it's obviously kicked up a massive conversation about migration across Europe. We know it's a massive buzzword and flashpoint, particularly for countries that have far right governments. Italy is chief among them. Georgia Maloney, the head of I'm sorry. Georgia Maloney, the Prime Minister of Italy. Georgia Maloney, the Prime Minister of Italy, has actually suspended passport-free Schengen travel between Italy and Spain. Bearing in mind that Italy and Spain don't actually share a border. And this what did we call it? A border rift? Border Rift actually isn't happening in mainland Spain. It's not happening in Europe at all. It's happening in a Spanish territory called Ceuta in North Africa. Anyway, I I guess they look for any excuse to denounce migration. she's actually gone

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: so far as to call for what she calls the Australian method, which is turning back the boats altogether. Tony Abbott would be very pleased.

Annie Pullar: my god, he would be thrilled. But I think it's really, you know, a gift the far right doesn't get very often. And when you look at the timing of all of this, there's no accident because France, Spain, Poland, and Italy are actually all in their mid-election cycle and or heading into one next year. Even Donald Trump's weighed in when's he not weighing in? He's also going into midterms. he apparently came out and and framed this whole thing as a preview of what the US would face without a Republican controlled border taking aim once again at poor Joe Biden, who I don't think has any idea what's going on anymore. So I don't know, experts aren't really convinced that migrants is the right word to say they weren't trying to sneak in unnoticed. There was clearly a plot and a ploy here. we might have to wait some time before we find out what that was. border rift, border chess. Let's just rewrite this headline.

Jodi Lee: All right, but be while we do that, it's probably best that we move to our third story of the week. we are switching gears. This one is about gambling, and it's been a wild week in Canberra. Betting companies have been forced to front a Senate inquiry defending outlandish claims that they armed their biggest gamblers with booze, illicit drugs, and prostitutes in order to encourage them to continue betting.

Annie Pullar: I mean, I hate to say that I'm not overly surprised, but I want to play a moment during this inquiry that has sort of fueled this story for the entire week.

Jodi Lee: It always helps to have a poster boy, and in this case, that

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: is book talk influencer Luke Bateman. he obviously blew up on the internet because he's buff and good looking and passionate about reading. but before his TikTok fame, Luke Bateman was actually an NRL player. Obviously, I drag everything back to footy. He played for the Canberra Raiders. and in that video, he's obviously talking about He's giving evidence under oath, first of all.

Annie Pullar: And

Jodi Lee: So you'd hope he was telling the truth. And he's basically saying that he saw head honchos, the entire C suite and VIP executives at a party on the Gold Coast run by gambling by a betting company doing drugs.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and he he hasn't sort of hidden the fact that he had a very long-running issue with gambling. That's been a huge part of his story and why he actually got into that book top culture and fantasy land. But I think for those who don't know him, it's actually worth understanding the extent of how bad this addiction was. So during giving evidence, he sort of detailed that he was this You know, 21-year-old guy, he was obviously an NRL player. He was earning four hundred thousand dollars a year, living the life that most people would would dream of. He said he literally couldn't afford groceries, couldn't even afford a lollipop. So he lost around eighty thousand dollars in a month. He had to sell things that he owned to keep gambling. Apparently his girlfriend would come back to the house and items would be missing and he would have sold it off. his parents apparently ended up absorbing around a hundred and thirty thousand of his debt and at the lowest he's very openly spoken about his mental health issues and at times contemplating taking his own life.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, and that's why I think he was such a powerful voice to front this Senate inquiry, because this isn't an abstract problem. The fact that Luke Bateman is willing to talk about it is incredibly empowering, but this is a problem that thousands of Australians face, often in quiet and

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: in the dark.

Annie Pullar: And as you said, it's always helpful to have a pin-up poster boy. And he's a pin-up poster boy that probably a lot of people within this realm can relate to. He's your footy lad, he's your guy, he's the the sort of person you would see at the races. but before we go too much detail into Luke Bateman, it's probably worth understanding why he was even at this Senate inquiry. So the government actually has a bill before Parliament at the moment to restrict gambling, advertising. capping TV ads, basically setting an agenda where there's no betting advertisements during live sport events before eight thirty at night and also no athletes promoting it. So that bill has gone to a Senate committee and Bateman was one of the people called to give evidence.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, and what happens at these Senate inquiries is senators from different states and territories representing, you know, different parties, some of them are independent, hear evidence on a bill before anyone's actually voted on it. So it's a bit of like an investigation or research, if you like, before they decide whether or not to pass the legislation.

Annie Pullar: and it's been a really bad week for a lot of these betting companies which have pretty much been labelled predators on the record. But it's also worth explaining the background here because there is a lot to absorb that's led to this moment.

Jodi Lee: so this bill actually tracks back to a report that was done in twenty twenty three by the late Labour MP, Peter Murphy. She's since passed away. But basically Peter recommended that gambling advertising be banned outright. it was something that the government's never actually gone through with, but this report made a very strong case for making that move.

Annie Pullar: and I think it's why it's been such a long time coming and why this has generated so much media hype. worth noting that Luke Bateman wasn't the only one who was called to front up and and speak at this inquiry. There's been medical experts, welfare groups, even people from outside the industry, but his account has obviously been the most gripping. He's also described Being a VIP customer. I I hadn't never heard of this, obviously, because I'm not in the betting world, but it's apparently an industry term for its biggest spenders. So over 90% of a bookmaker's revenue reportedly comes from the top 10% of punters who basically get assigned a personal account manager, almost like a PA, and their sole job is to keep them betting. So we're talking about arranging flights for them, hotels, tickets to exclusive events. Events, you know, parties like Luke Bateman was detailing before on the Gold Coast. And the whole ploy of this is that the moment that those people are suspected to have a bad loss, that's when they swoop in. Basically sending them a bonus bet, which is extra money to bet with, specifically time to tempt them to try and win back what they just lost. Like it's.

Jodi Lee: It's so it's actually alarming when you explain it like that. It is such a destructive behaviour gambling, and yet

Annie Pullar: Hmm.

Jodi Lee: it's so ingrained in the Australian psyche and culture. And it's really closely tied to sport. It's where a lot of the money comes from in the sporting world. I found it interesting that Senator David Pocock from the ACT pushed Bateman during his evidence and asked whether it was just the junior staff who knew about the drug taking at these gambling company run events or whether it went right up to the top. But Bateman insisted that it was like the C-suite executives who were also doing drugs, talking about drugs, and offering drugs. What I did find interesting on Luke Bateman's behalf, and I thought this was a stroke of genius, he's refused to name the betting company that that hosted him at that party. He said he doesn't want this to be a conversation about one specific entity. He thinks it's really important that this stays a conversation about industry-wide standards.

Annie Pullar: I think that that's a very valid point because instead the story becomes about the likes of Sportsbet and Tabcourt, not about the harrowing accounts that he's actually witnessed. the reportings pointed to Sportsbet, as the, party and details that he's described as the one at the centre of it all. But they say that privacy laws apparently stop them from confirming or denying if he was even a customer. And let's be honest, would they ever come out and, you know, say point blank if it was them? Probably not.

Jodi Lee: Never. And do we care really? Are we looking for one

Annie Pullar: No.

Jodi Lee: bad apple? Or is this about nationwide, industry wide standards? And I think that's important to ask. What is the what is this inquiry looking to achieve? There are sort of three key asks that keep coming up. So the first one is to ban gambling advertising altogether. The second is to ban inducements. That's those processes that you outlined earlier where the company reaches out to a high roller or a punter and offers them some kind of incentive, whether it's like a free trip or a bonus bet, they're looking to ban those inducements. And the third would be like a national regulator. At present, you know, people say that oversight over the gambling industry is really patchy at best. You know, they just they're just looking for a national peak body that can oversee this and make sure that it's well legislated and well regulated.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it's it's important listening to you read that all out because when you look at the bill that Labor's actually, you know, concocting here, it doesn't kind of cover specifically any of those three big ars. Yes, it restricts T V ads, it bans radio ads during school pickup and drop off so kids aren't exposed to these advertisements. And I think they're also bringing in this sort of opt-out program for online ads, but it doesn't really cover what it's supposed to cover. And that's been the point of many advocates. It doesn't go far enough into all of these issues, particularly the inducements, which seems to be at the center of the problems, doesn't even touch the sides.

Jodi Lee: It's important to start somewhere because Think about it. It's there's you know, it's no surprise that industry has really been pushing back on these regulations. They say that any, you know, any further regulation would strip a lot of money out of sport and racing. and that is that is true. You know, big codes like the NRL and the AFL would no doubt be hit by this. So you understand why the industry is pushing back, but it's not just you know, mainstream ads. You only have to look to social media as well to see that gambling is being advertised. And encouraged across the likes of Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, X. It's everywhere. You can't escape it.

Annie Pullar: and I think, you know, traditionally this is an industry a and I I don't know if I'm being too harsh here, but I think it's always put profit over people. It's no secret How deep-seated the gambling issues are in our country, yet it continues to incentivize vulnerable people to pour their money out. But what I also find interesting is that, you know, the government's big answer to this all is this website or program called Bet Stop, which is basically this self-exclusion register, which is mentioned in this bill. But it only works if someone's actually recognized that they have a problem and they choose to sign up to it, so it means that they opt out to a lot of advertisements, which kind of makes no sense to me. If you're in the middle of an addiction problem, you're in the grips of despair, you can't control yourself, who is rationally deciding to opt out? I like it doesn't add up.

Jodi Lee: It's that people would ra would not opt themselves out. I just think that it's not fail-safe. And even if you do opt out, there are so many ways around it. I I I just find it interesting.

Annie Pullar: And more.

Jodi Lee: Is that Labour's spruking it as, you know, the toughest gambling reforms the country's ever seen and it's, you know, confident that it'll get through by January, which is only six months away. they might look. There might be the toughest crackdown on gambling that we've seen for some time, only because the country's done nothing about gambling. But it doesn't look like this legislation has support. The Greens aren't looking like they're gonna back it, and neither is the coalition. So

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it it it's not stacking up for me. I think whether it's held up, watered down, tightened up, we don't know yet. We're gonna have to watch this play out. But what's important is and and you've sort of already touched on it, but I think it really goes to the core of of something bigger, and that is the relationship between sport and gambling. When you look at sponsorship deals, like the AFL and the NRL and cricket, they're estimated To be three hundred million dollars a year between them, and both codes reportedly take a cut of every dollar bet on their own games too. So that's around fifty million dollars for the NRL, thirty million for the AFL. So they have an invested interest here.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, of course. And I think they are such heavy hitters and so influential with government that you can understand why it's taken so long to even have this conversation to start with. Sport is so ingrained in our psyche as Australians, and the way that we enjoy it is so specific, and betting is so intrinsic to that. completely unsurprised that this is unlikely to pass. you know, to be fair, so both the NRL and the AFL were invited to give evidence. the Senate inquiry. They both obviously unsurprisingly refused. Peter Valandis, who's the head of the NRL, he's currently the acting chief executive as well. Everything comes back to PDL.

Annie Pullar: We've come back to Peter Volandis and the Pope.

Jodi Lee: So he runs not o he doesn't only run the NRL, he also runs Racing New South Wales. He's called the Senators leading this inquiry publicity seeking extremists. So that tells you how seriously he's taking this inquiry and what he thinks of it.

Annie Pullar: He's got his fingers in a few pies, Peter Valandis, doesn't he?

Jodi Lee: Big man on campus old PVL.

Annie Pullar: know, I I know this is a bit left off feel, but I just feel like it's predatory behaviour. If you look at, you know, other realms of addiction, if a if a drug dealer targeted someone the moment they were most vulnerable, at their lowest point in their life, straight after a relapse, to essentially hook them back in, we would not accept that as a community. They'd go to prison. But that's basically what we're hearing here in a different context. I know it's not drug taking, but I I just feel like if if the government can't hold these betting companies to account and they're so ingrained in these sporting codes and they're making so much money, then where is the incentive to actually stop this behaviour?

Jodi Lee: Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think the practice of inducements is serving anyone except the bottom line of a betting company. So it makes

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: no sense that that should be legal, that you should be allowed to offer somebody Who gambles, an incentive to keep going. I certainly don't think that you can equate gambling to the use of illegal drugs. Gambling is legal and I think it should stay legal, but I agree that there should be some guardrails in place. We shouldn't be advertising it a lot like smoking. You can smoke if you want. You can buy cigarettes if you want, but we're not going to display them publicly. the boxes are gonna be really unattractive and they're gonna highlight the risks associated with it. But and if you have a diet, gonna have to go outside and you can't sit at a restaurant and do all these things. But look, if you want to smoke, be my guest. And I sort of feel the same way about gambling. If that's what you want to do with your money, who am I to tell you not to do it? But I strongly believe that it shouldn't be advertised, certainly not across our major sporting codes, whether that's before or after 830 at night. It doesn't matter.

Annie Pullar: so it's really coming down to the way that we're selling it and portraying it. but

Jodi Lee: In my opinion. Yeah.

Annie Pullar: yeah, no, I agree with you. I was probably too harsh about the drug comment. I just can't stand gambling. But I'm probably gonna become the most cancelled person in Australia for saying that. hope you feel com

Jodi Lee: you won't win friends with Peter Valandis, but that's okay. Don't invite him round for dinner.

Annie Pullar: Peter, give me a call anytime. Would love to answer the phone. But we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for sticking with us this week, and we hope you feel covered with the week's biggest news.

Jodi Lee: See you next week.