Annie Pullar: Welcome to Covered, a podcast that helps you figure out what the hell is happening in the news and how to feel about it.

Jodi Lee: Here to guide you through the biggest stories of the week. As always, we are your hosts, journalists Jodie Lee and Annie Puller.

Annie Pullar: on this week's episode we dive into

Jodi Lee: Victorian premier or former premier Jacinta Allen forced her resign after her own colleagues abandoned support for her.

Annie Pullar: Australia's got a new emergency alert system. Why a ten second alarm has caused so much hype and controversy.

Jodi Lee: And Shock Jock King Kyle Sanderlands has returned after being dumped from ARN launching his very own show on a subscription service. He's provided a tell-all interview and gives all the saucy details about the exit from the Kyle and Jackie O show.

Annie Pullar: I can't wait to get into that one. But first let's go to our honorable mentions. These are the stories that don't quite warrant a deep dive, but are worth getting your head across this week.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, and our very first one is an international story out of Germany where there's growing anger that a man behind a shocking fatal car ramming on a Pride Parade had been let out of custody just two months earlier despite having known ties to Islamic State. The 21-year-old drove a van into the Pride Parade in Berlin and then began attacking people with a machete, killing a 62-year-old woman and injuring 29

Annie Pullar: Interesting.

Jodi Lee: others. He was shot by police a day later. but it's now been revealed that he had known ties to Islamic State. He had tried to join the terrorist organization in Syria last year and was convicted in May over a plot to carry out a serious attack. But a Berlin court suspended his sentence and released him on probation instead of sending him to jail. The attack has reopened Old Wounds for Berlin, which now has seen three vehicle ramming incidents in just a decade.

Annie Pullar: Just awful. Moving to our next honorable mention, a powerful earthquake has hit southern Japan and the death toll is now sitting at 34 and climbing. It struck the Kumamoto region on Tuesday, which is an area still recovering from a major quake that hit back in 2016. The worst of the destruction was actually seen at a shopping center that had apparently reopened just weeks earlier as a symbol of recovery from that last earthquake. The explosion tore through it after the quake hit, bringing down a part of the building while thousands of people were still inside. Elsewhere in the region, homes have collapsed. Apparently a paper mill was also hit really badly. Rescuers are pretty much racing against the clock now. They're in that seventy-two hour window where survival odds drop. So, you know, thousands of soldiers have been sent in to search

Jodi Lee: Yeah, incredibly frightening. but our final honorable mention this week is about the migration crisis unfolding in a small Spanish territory. You would have seen these videos on social media. it's expected that up to 3,000 men have actually crossed in from Morocco to this small territory called Ceuta just on Thursday alone. They did it by swimming or walking around a breakwater and crossing the rocks. In numbers that actually overwhelm Spanish authorities. The surge comes after a Spanish Supreme Court ruled that migrants intercepted at sea couldn't be summarily returned to Morocco. So it basically gave them greater incentive. To attempt this crossing in the first place. Madrid also made a decision this year to grant an amnesty to migrants that were already in the country. That means that more than 1.3 million people are now applying to stay in Spain permanently. it's understood that at least 18 people died attempting to make this crossing. The Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez says that the country will deploy an immediate response, but it's got other European nations definitely frightened. Italy's far right Prime Minister Giorgio Maloney has threatened to suspend its country's registration as part of the Schengen agreement with Spain, basically saying that the crisis is so bad it wants to shut down that free border with Spain.

Annie Pullar: Jesus, those pictures were insane. It seems like everywhere you look at the moment, we just can't escape immigration. But let's move to our first story this week. I think the best place to start is your home state, Jody, Victoria, because it has been an extraordinary week in politics, to say the least. Obviously, the former premier, Jacinta Allen, has had quite a dramatic fall from grace this week. 25 years in state parliament, less than three years as Premier. And it all came crumbling down on Tuesday. She was essentially stood down after losing the support from her own colleagues, and this is how she chose to go out.

Jodi Lee: I mean, all great achievements, obviously, and I don't dispute that. the thing

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: I can't let go of with Just Inter Allen is she was never elected as premier. She took over after Daniel Andrews resigned, and then she was never elected at the next election because she was forced to step down this week. So basically, as you rightly said, all of her Labour c colleagues said, told her very early one morning this week that she'd lost the support of the caucus. And so I think briefly she Decided whether or not she wanted to fight for the leadership and run. But then she decided just to step aside, said it would be, I think it'd be too messy to try and do that. And so her deputy, Ben Carroll, the Education Minister, was installed as Premier hours after this all unfolded. Very briefly, Sonia Kilkenny, who's the Attorney General, also mounted a challenge for the leadership. but that was sort of quickly dismissed. And and and Carol, Ben Carroll, is the new premier of the state of Victoria. Might I say a North Melbourne Kangaroos supporter as well?

Annie Pullar: So you're on board naturally. I mean, I think, yeah, that resignation speech has been picked to pieces. For me, i it's not a gendered issue why this is unfolded the way it is. But I think that this is a pattern with Labour when it turns on a leader, unlike the Liberal Party, it doesn't seem to drag things out. They're right up to the next one. but the interesting thing about Jacinta Allen is up until six days before this all Essentially fell apart. She still believed that she could win this election. She actually told The Age last week that I know who I'm fighting for and I know who I'm fighting against. Well, those words probably haven't really lived up to the way that she wanted them to, but this happened very fast. It happened behind closed doors by the time the public essentially found out a new person was already on the podium.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, well, I it's interesting because doubts about Jacinta Allen's leadership had actually been building for some time. I don't think that this for anybody in the state of Victoria that this came as a surprise. she obviously took over from Daniel Andrews, who was widely pegged as the most controversial Australian leader, I would say, for for decades. but parking Dan Andrews to the side, she got a slight reprieve during the federal election last year when Labour won by a literal landslide. everywhere, including in Victoria, which I think allowed people to pause the criticisms of Labour. There had obviously been some talk that Labour was losing support at the federal level. That definitely wasn't the case. So Jacinta Allen had some reprieve, but really her premiership has been dogged by these allegations of big build corruption, a decline in the economy, huh rising crime right across Victoria, and of course the hangover of Dan Andrews and his sort of heavy-handed COVID restriction. So she hasn't had an easy time of it.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and I think that that federal election result really only bought her time. It it was about the national brand, not really about her own image in Victoria. What I found interesting about Jacinta Allen is we've heard a lot about allegations of corruption in the big build, which is that slate of infrastructure projects in Victoria, that it's been linked to organized crimes, there's major investigations underway, calls for a royal commission kept growing, which she often time and time again failed to even speak to whether she would. call for a royal commission. But Jody, I think one of the the biggest downfalls of Jacinta Allen was actually the the premier that she served under. You lived in Victoria. Talk to me about Dan Andrews.

Jodi Lee: Dan Andrews is probably the most successful politician I've ever seen and probably will ever see in my lifetime. He had an incredible way of convincing people to do things they didn't want to do. We saw that firsthand with COVID restrictions. He was an absolute wizard when it came to answering questions, in fronting the media. He simultaneously was sort of dictating things. this was dictating to people and at the same time presenting as the everyman and here for the working class. Like it was a masterclass in how to be a politician. I'm not saying he I'm not saying I liked him. But I'm just saying at the job he set out to do, I think he was highly successful. But you also have to understand that he was highly controversial. his you know, relationship and and connection with the Belt and Road projects and and sort of ties to China, the issues during COVID. I mean, we were in lockdown for something like 211 days in Victoria, while most people in Australia were living relatively free lives. So there was a huge obviously the state economy in Victoria, there was a huge hangover. And when he stepped down, Jacinta Allen was his deputy, she was his transport minister. When he resigned, he handed the reins to her. I find it interesting that you said earlier that this isn't a gendered issue. Obviously, the clip that we played had her talking about some of her achievements. I don't necessarily agree that it's not a gendered issue for two reasons. One, she was only the second female premier of the state of Victoria. So she was always going to be judged on her ability to lead as a woman. That's fact. And on women's issues that she highlighted, I think she actually did a good job. but then I was reading something else called the Glass Cliff Theory, which is apparently, I'd never heard of this before, a very well-known theory that when a man runs a business or a government or an institute or organization into the ground.

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: Very oftentimes they'll then hand it to a woman to clean up the mess. We've seen this at Qantas after Alan Joyce has left, resigned. and it's just a poison chalice because you're inheriting a shitstorm. and they hope that people will be kinder to you maybe, maybe public perception will be kinder to you because you're a woman, you're a member of a minority, but really it's a shit sandwich.

Annie Pullar: Yeah. So I think what you're saying is that, you know, she's been plagued by this Daniel Andrews hangover, if we can call it that. But to play devil's advocate here, and you know, I'm obviously not from the state of Victoria, but I I can't really get past this big question. How can you hold the transport portfolio the entire time under the Daniel Andrews government and not be at the center of these corruption allegations allegations associated to that big build project? I mean The CFMEU is alleged to have cost taxpayers in Victoria around $15 billion on the big bill. There's reporting that's been surfacing for several months that she personally approved an $837 million payment after the union's demands blew out costs on one of the projects, which was the Metro Tunnel. So she was apparently briefed on these criminal gangs. She was across what was happening, and she simply says that she she. wasn't, she denies wrongdoing across the board. to me, it just seems like a lot to write off as just a coincidence. Like either either she's been asleep at the wheel of her own portfolio or she knew exactly what was going on and choose to just sit on it, which I think feels more likely.

Jodi Lee: Well, yeah. Yeah, correct. I mean, w we'll never well, we might now know what she did and didn't know because the new premier Ben Carroll has has called a royal commission into the big build crisis. But there's obviously a reason why she didn't want to do that. She was the transport minister, so clearly she's gonna be implicated in any kind of inquiry. Or questions are gonna be asked of her sufficient that she might look like she knew what was going on. So it's no no surprise to me that she didn't call an inquiry into the big build saga. But she wasn't always this way. Like Jacinta Allen had served, as you said, in politics for twenty-five. She was elected at twenty-five. and

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: she'd served for twenty something years. She was the youngest member of parliament at the time that she was elected. and she did have some big achievements, you know, as transport minister under that big build project, you know, she sort of was spearheaded the level crossing removal project. I don't know, controversial whether or not that is like revolutionary in the state of Victoria.

Annie Pullar: I've had to yeah, disclaimer I've had to actually learn what that is this week. But

Jodi Lee: Yeah, so I don't know, but look, we do have a new premier. It is Ben Carroll, and I found it interesting how he introduced himself when he accepted the position. I found it really interesting how he framed who he is, but more importantly, who he isn't.

Annie Pullar: Sorry, can I just come out and say obviously this is very strategic language, but this is the same man who six weeks earlier did a press conference championing Jacinta Allen when questions were circling about her leadership, putting her on a pedestal for his own daughter. And now he's completely backflipped.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, but it's not about how he feels about her on a personal level. This he isn't saying we're no longer mates, I don't respect her or like her. He's coming

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: out and saying what people in Victoria want to hear, which is you've had two pretty shoddy, disappointing premiers over the last I don't know, th twelve years or whatever it is. Now I'm different. So he's sort of drawing a line in the sand. If this is politics, baby, it's not about how we feel. An entirely different game.

Annie Pullar: Well there's no there's no loyalty ever in politics, so you know.

Jodi Lee: No, absolutely not. But let's talk about who Ben Carroll is. So he's obviously been deputy premier under Jacinta Allen. He's also been the Education Minister. He's held other big portfolios under Andrews, like I think it was Youth Justice. So he's across some of the biggest issues in Victoria. He's born and raised in Melbourne's northwestern suburbs. And it sounds like he worked for his very first job when he was 14 and nine months. He got a job at the local Kmart at the checkout, and he was there for years. And he went on, after working at Kmart, to study an arts degree at La Trobe University. And then he rose first through the unions. So a very influential union called the Shoppies, who represents like retail workers. He rose through the unions and then through labor. Interesting to note that he's from a different faction than Jacinta Allen. So obviously in politics, within the Labour Party or within the Liberal Party, there are what we call political factions or kind of like minor sects, if you like, of people that share, of ministers that share similar values. Jacinta Allen and Daniel Andrews are from what we call the socialist left faction of Labour, so very far left. Ben Carroll is said to be from more like the centrist right faction within Labour.

Annie Pullar: Right. So he's not some outsider that's just parachuted in. He's kind of been in the in the tent the whole time, if we can call it that. which

Jodi Lee: Yeah, absolutely.

Annie Pullar: which is exactly why he's ended up in this role. I found it interesting you mentioned off the top there that the first thing he did in this press conference was announce a royal commission, into the big build that Alan had obviously refused to do, refused to speak about. He's also promising to focus more on the economy and community safety. Crime has been a massive issue in Victoria, we've seen many different firebombings, stabbings. it's been talked about for several years. What I sort of want to get to is the landscape of Victorian politics if we just sort of take a step back. Because it seems like the Liberal coalition has been running in disarray there since about twenty fourteen. There's like A new leader that's apparently rolling around every year, and it's become a bit of a running joke in the state. Labour's always sort of been able to present itself as this brand that, you know, is the brand for the adults who don't fight in public, who don't have that infighting. This spill, I mean it that kind of underscores that all whole argument, doesn't it? Like he's he's in for a bit a bit of a tough ride, Ben Carroll, to convince the Victorian public that he is the right leader.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, I haven't actually spoken to many Victorians about this, but from the outside I reckon it's I disagree with you. I actually think it's a smart play by Labour. Jacinta Allen was on really shaky ground. you are right in saying that the Liberals in Victoria have been in disarray for a couple of years. They literally were changing leaders as often as you and I change our undies, but you know.

Annie Pullar: Well, I think that's a picture nationally at the moment, isn't it? But

Jodi Lee: yeah, correct. But they recently elected Jess Wilson as the liberal leader in Victoria. And by

Annie Pullar: yeah, yep, yep. Young woman.

Jodi Lee: And I think we've you'll see that there's been a lot more stability within the party at a state level down there than there has been for a really long time. She's a young mom. She's really a her team is really adept with on social media. So there's lots of these like spiffy videos and campaigns that they're putting out online. she used to be a senior political staffer for Josh Freidenberg, who of we all know was the treasurer, federal treasurer. so I think the liberals are on much sturdier ground, I would say. And I think you'll find that electing Ben Carroll, who's a lot more moderate, who doesn't come with the kind of negative reputation of Jacinta Allen, places the Labour Party on a lot steadier ground too in Victoria. Now you've got to remember they are coming into an election. So I do not have a crystal ball. I'd love to know who'll win. But this was obviously a calculated calculated play by Labour to put its best foot forward at a time when it counts most.

Annie Pullar: Hm, I I feel like a changing of the guard though this close to a an election historically and globally doesn't always end well. Like if you look remember

Jodi Lee: Yeah, but he's a familiar face. Like everybody knows Ben Carroll.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, but I mean everybody knew Kamala Harris in the US when when she took over from Biden. You know, look at what's happened to Sakya Starmer's party in the UK. I just think, I don't know, this swapping of the captain right before the finish line, I feel like it rarely ends in a party's favor. But we'll see. Wha what I do wanna say is that for a left leaning state, what's remarkable is that this election's kind of shaping up to be a three horse race. We've spoken a lot about One Nation there. Some polls are actually putting One Nation narrowly ahead on the primary votes in Victoria. And Hansen's party doesn't even have a Victorian leader yet. So it whatever happens, I'm I'm along for the ride with this one.

Jodi Lee: Yeah. And just remember, obviously the election's like four months away. and we also could see Dan Andrews and Jacinta Allen called before that c that Royal Commission into the big build. So there's lots to Yeah, lots to look forward

Annie Pullar: get the popcorn ready.

Jodi Lee: to. But let's move on to our second story. Leaving Victoria behind, it actually touches on every state and territory right across Australia. It is, of course, the Oz Alert that pinged on every phone at two PM on Monday afternoon. But yours didn't.

Annie Pullar: No. This is I mean, I think this is more more a

Jodi Lee: Very on brand.

Annie Pullar: reflection of me than the system. I was standing in my day-to-day job at the airport and everyone's phone was going off around me and I looked down at mine, radio silence, nothing happening. And I clearly haven't had a software update, but let's see how it unfolded for everyone who does manage their phone better than me. Bloody piercing sound.

Jodi Lee: it's awful. Mine went off bang on two o'clock and it was much louder than I thought it would be, actually. but obviously that siren was Oz Alert. It's the country's brand new emergency warning system and it was the first ever nationwide test of that system.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, I think to explain this new system, we sort of have to understand the old system that's been in place. So there's been this longstanding SMS platform called Emergency Alert. It's been running since two thousand and nine. It was adopted in every state and territory. It actually came about after a really horrific single day of fires in Victoria, the Black Saturday bushfires. So that You probably have received it yourself if you've ever been in a, you know, a flash flooding event, a cyclone, bushfires, it sends a text during those events and it runs off regular phone networks. So it depends on your specific telco. But the big criticism of that system was that if you know, the network was under pressure, there was every real possibility that those texts weren't sent out and then people didn't receive them. But let's sort of just park that for a second and go into how this new system changes things.

Jodi Lee: Yes. So this one actually broadcasts straight from the nearest cell phone tower to every compatible device. And it doesn't matter which telco you're with. That's really critical, as you said, because we've seen major networks have actually gone down in the last year. Optus had an outage, Telstra's had an outage, and during those outages it's meant that phone users weren't actually able to connect to Triple Zero and call emergency services. So, what the Australian government is trying to do is circumvent problems like that during a national emergency. So, this is less about a text kind of squeezing through a jammed and really busy network. It's more a signal that will go out to everybody. It can't be silenced. That's actually deliberate. It is a federal system. It's up to every state and territory to adopt it. But so far, it seems like the test largely went to plan.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it absolutely did. And it came about after a Royal Commission, after the Black Summer Bush fires in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty. I think they were. In fact, you probably would have been in Victoria during those fires. horrific, I think, for anyone who lived through that. there were 33 deaths, 3,000 homes lost, 18 million hectares burned, and the old system was really put under the microscope because a lot of people didn't receive. the the warnings really that they should have. So this new system has drawn quite a lot of support, but it's also, as all systems do, found a lot of critics. let's start with you know, some of the downsides that have been flagged.

Jodi Lee: Well the first is that it was only meant to cost ten million dollars, but it's alleged the cost blew out to $132 million. So that's a significant cost.

Annie Pullar: a blowout, who would have thought? A new technology? No. Of course.

Jodi Lee: Never, never.

Annie Pullar: yeah, listen, I'm all for it, but if you look What states or how states are responding, it is quite varied. So here in Queensland, where where I am, you're seeing different emergency agencies not exactly wanting to boycott the new system, but they don't trust it yet. So they're saying that we want to rely on this old SMS system until we can see that it actually works, that those sirens do sound on people's phones. The other criticism which has been raised by Western Australia as well is that this new system doesn't actually reach many landlines, people in remote areas. So I it it's sort of I I think it's gonna be a wait and see as to how this unfolds. The federal government wants to phase out the SMS emergency alert by twenty twenty seven, but I think there'll be a lot more infighting before we actually rely on Oz alerts.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, the other criticism or issue to deal with is that it overrides a phone's do not disturb system or a phone that is on silent. So my phone is always on silent and I still had that really loud loud, sharp, piercing buzz. For me, that's fine, but domestic violence advocates have actually said this poses a huge threat to people in crisis. many of them have secret phones that they use to ask for help or that they use to, you know, seek seek assistance and it meant that those phones would have also beeped. there were lots of domestic violence charities and outreach services that notified people well in advance and warned them to to turn those phones off, which I think is the only way to circumvent the the alert. But yeah, it does put a lot of people at risk.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and it puts a lot of people under pressure. Like imagine if you if you were in this situation and you're, you know, having to deal with this new alert system that could potentially expose something that puts you in danger. I mean, it is worth noting that the emergency services minister has been working with DV services ahead of this test to try and figure out how we can implement more safe phones, but I think it's definitely still a gap in the system. What's worth noting is the government has made a very big deal of this. Like we've seen TV commercials, we've seen social ads, but they're not really reinventing the wheel here. this tech is already running in more than 30 countries abroad. In the UK, when they were conducting their own tests ahead of officially launching this, there was some serious problems. Like One network apparently missed out entirely, people didn't receive it, or people received it a day late, similar stuff happened in the US. All of that has been ironed out. And now, particularly in the US, it's very relied upon with with the level of gun violence that they see there. So I don't think this test was really about a measure of success. It was more a data gathering exercise.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, I mean, well, the government did say that it was ninety-four percent or ninety-four percent of targeted towers actually broadcast the alert successfully. So apparently that even beat the government's own target. So by all accounts it has been very successful. I think

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: we these alert systems and technology they need to evolve with technology. We can't still be relying on text messages in the event of a bushfire or a tsunami or an earthquake or whatever the the natural disaster or threat is. So to me it only makes sense that we would try something like this. I realize that there are four million, you know, older phones that wouldn't have received it. Nothing is ever perfect. You're not gonna get a hundred percent cut through any time you try something, but ninety four percent seems pretty good.

Annie Pullar: hundred percent. I I did have to have a laugh. We'll end on this, but there is an entire corner of the internet that thinks that there is something more sinister in all of this, that they're being tracked by by the government.

Jodi Lee: my God. Like the people who said that the COVID vaccine was microchipping you. Yeah.

Annie Pullar: But get this. Apparently people have actually been wrapping their phones in foil because they were convinced that the government was tracking their location, despite the fact that they said they don't even know which phones they're targeting. Like this is just they're just

Jodi Lee: Next I'll be wrapping it in foil and whacking it in the microwave because that's how stupid they are. I literally can't. You realize that there are apps like Find My iPhone that every time you walk on the street, you're captured by CCTV cameras, that every time you use Apple Pay to pay somewhere, they can track you like, so dumb.

Annie Pullar: Well let's just let let's just let the keyboard warriors keep keyboarding. Anyway, I wanna

Jodi Lee: Yeah, we don't want to be warned in the event of a natural disaster, we don't mind. That we call that natural selection.

Annie Pullar: Yeah. Speaking of natural selection, should we move on to our last story, which is one that I can't wait to get into? We've spoken about King Kyle, Kyle Sanderlands, a lot on this podcast, the downfall of his relationship with his former co-host Jackie O. He was obviously axed from ARN. He had that whole court battle. now he's dropping a new docuseries, which is pointing to a new live show. And I want you all to get a taste of it.

Jodi Lee: Bring it on. Can I just say, I, and we have a cam, I used to work with a cameraman by the name of Finn, who was a you know Finn, who was a diehard

Annie Pullar: yes.

Jodi Lee: Kyle fan, and he'd have Kiss FM on the radio every day that I got in the car. And Finn's young, he's like in his early 20s, and I was just like, fuck this trash. Like Kyle's such an ogre. He's awful, he's so crass. Since the ARN exit and all of this, all of these tell all interviews that he's done. I've seen a completely different side to him and I love him.

Annie Pullar: I have to say, I completely agree with you. I think I always had ridden him off as this sort of egotistical narcissist, and I was very much sitting in the Jackie camp when all of this unfolded. But I think it's because we hadn't really been exposed to the true Kyle Sandalins. Like I think as a country, we you know, we've been hearing Kyle Sandelin's voice on the radio for decades. He's always been this boisterous, sort of offensive character. But One interview that you know, we've been listening to, which I think's worth unpacking, is this sit-down that he did with the Daily Mouse new entertainment podcast. And I felt like I saw a whole other side to him. Someone who cared deeply about the people that he works with, who cares deeply about the craft of what he does, but also someone who kinda doesn't give a fuck about what people think about him. And he's gonna he's gonna carry on regardless of what we say.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, so let's just recap for anybody who might have missed this. So obviously, Kyle and Jackie O had been an absolute radio ruling duo, certainly in Sydney, for the better part of three decades. just a year ago, they'd each signed a hundred million dollar contract with the Australian Radio Network that was for a 10-year deal. So they were each making $10 million a year for 10 years. They were one year into that deal when in February they got into a bit of a TIFF on air. Kyle accused Jackie of kind of not being present, getting a bit woo-woo. She was talking about, like, I don't know, crystals and psychics and going

Annie Pullar: Going off with the fairies.

Jodi Lee: off with the fairies, Kyle said she was. and then she stormed out, but she actually came back during that radio that radio show. She finished the show and then they both went home. And Kyle has since said in this tell-all interview that he didn't really think anything of it. They'd obviously had blow-ups many, many times. His job was to say controversial things. He's a shock jock. And he even says in this interview that they used to have tiffs on air, and then those those fights would actually be used as promo for the show. So they'd

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: play their arguments on the radio to encourage more listeners to tune in the following day. Like that's what they were being paid to do.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, they they were performative. He even said in this interview, you know,

Jodi Lee: Yeah.

Annie Pullar: they turned up every day and they had to give twenty percent more of themselves. They had to heighten things because in the end of the day they're in the business of entertainment and no one wants to listen to, you know, people with the same opinion. They want people they want people that are gonna go ahead with each other, and that's exactly what Jackie Owen Kyle gave us.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, it's lively and it's colourful. So fast forward, they both launched their own separate lawsuits. Kyle has obviously remembering that their contracts were worth a hundred million dollars. Kyle settled for I think it was twelve million. Jackie

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: is still tied up in her legal battle, so no one knows where that's gonna end up. I found it interesting Kyle explaining why he settled. because I remember thinking a hundred million and all you've walked away with is twelve. Like that's na that's nothing.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it it it doesn't make sense for someone who's been at the top of his game for so long who seemingly had held all of the cards.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, It's easy for us to sit back and go, 12 million bucks. That's amazing. But you have to remember this is someone who's signed a hundred million dollar contract. That that means that he's making financial decisions for him and his family off the basis that he's gonna be earning ten million bucks a year for 10 years. So I did find it strange, but he said he did the calculations and he realized that it his legal fees to get to that settlement already cost him two million bucks. even if he won, they then could have appealed, it could have cost him tens of millions of dollars in legal fees, and he just said it's actually just not worth it.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and I think it was an opportune time for ARN to get rid of him, right? Because they were snooping around, they were looking to do deals. I think they were, you know, at one point gonna team up with Channel Seven, then that fell through because Seven ended up merging with a different radio network, Southern Cross. But let's get into the relationship because that's the juicy stuff for me. So when this TIF unfolded, it it all kind of went to hell very quickly. But Kyle sort of details it a little bit differently. He says that Jackie had texted him, I think it was like seven days after they had this fight, saying that he crossed a personal and professional line. And he didn't apparently think much of it because this had happened time and time again. In fact, he said that in in the entire duration that they worked together, there had never really been a formal complaint from Jackie. There was one time. But she chose not to escalate it to the chairman. Instead, she sent some woo-woo doctor over to his house to clear the spirits out. So I think, we're not talking about a man that was aware that he was bullying his co-host. This was the nature of their relationship. They were designed to create controversy for the public to buy into. So think in a lot of ways he really was caught off guard by how this was handled.

Jodi Lee: He was, but I think you also have to look at what had played out. And he basically says as much. You know, when they got together as a radio duo and they really started taking off, Kyle was this party boy. He was a single guy. He was doing a lot of drugs and dating a lot of women. and Jackie had a young daughter and she was married. Fast forward, Jackie is now divorced. She has a teenager, she's gone public with her prescription drug. Addiction and she went to rehab. So she's done a lot of like healing. She's probably coming into herself, living her best life. And by contrast, Kyle is now married and has a four or three-year-old son. So he's living the like quiet family life. So I think

Annie Pullar: Like

Jodi Lee: they're very much in different places. And look. Yeah, the roles

Annie Pullar: Yeah. The roles have reversed almost, in a way.

Jodi Lee: have reversed. And more than anything, like you touched on it. I think there are two parties here For whom this no longer worked, but they hadn't discussed it with anybody else. Full disclosure, I don't know anyone involved in any of this. This is just my you know, my observations from afar.

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: But ARN li likely couldn't have afforded a $200 million contract with those two hosts. Kyle says Kyle says

Annie Pullar: Hundred percent.

Jodi Lee: himself that the CEOs who did that deal are no longer in charge of the business. So I reckon the new bosses have come in and gone, why the fuck are we spending so much? And they've been looking for every avenue to try and dismantle this deal.

Annie Pullar: something else that I found funny, there was actually a point where what's his friend Ibrahim? Is it John Ibrahim? John

Jodi Lee: John Ibrahim. Yeah.

Annie Pullar: Ibrahim came to him. Apparently they had devised this other plan to actually buy ARN, but Kyle was basically like, it was more of an ego-driven goal than anything to, you know, do the finger to his former employer. but it seems like Kyle's going just fine now. Like he's about to launch this new podcast. I think it's called At Home with Kyle. It's gonna be a subscription model. I think it's $99 a year. And so I think we're gonna see a comeback from Kyle like no other. I think his popularity is about to soar more than it ever has. And it seems that he still has a lot of I guess love for his former co host. He even said that, you know, he's building his new studio at the moment, that there's a seat still there for her if she ever wants to return, so who knows? We could see them back together again, or maybe she's decided that yeah, she's just had enough of him.

Jodi Lee: Be surprised if they reunited once her once her bitter legal battle with ARN ends. But the jury is still out for me. I don't know if listeners. It's one thing to switch on KISS FM in the car on the way home from work and listen to Kyle and Jackie O, like, you know, getting stuck into each other. Are people gonna pay a hundred bucks a year for that? I don't know. I'm surprised.

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: A hundred is a lot of money.

Annie Pullar: It is a lot of money now I think about it, but he does have a bit of a cult following. Like he he does deliver pretty engaging content. I mean, even that Instagram reel that we just played earlier, like I'm so hooked on this. I'm more hooked than I've ever been. Like, I personally didn't really buy into Kyle and Jackie O, and now I'm fully buying into Kyle. So he could have a lot of converters as well.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, I yeah, I I'm actually excited to see. I

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: hope it goes well for him. He's hired something like eight staff who were made redundant from ARN when the show was out because they're all working for Kyle. He's paying for them all. so I am really intrigued. Like I hope it works. But I guess on that note, we should probably wrap this week's episode. So thank you so much for listening to us on covered, and we hope to see you next week.