Annie Pullar: Welcome to COVID, a podcast that helps you figure out what the hell is happening in the news and how you feel about it.

Jodi Lee: Here to guide you through the biggest stories of the last week. We are your hosts. I'm Jodie Lee, and this is Annie Puller.

Annie Pullar: On this week's episode we dive into

Jodi Lee: Why the cash rate in Australia has hit a fifteen year high. We break down how it got here, what it means for you, and the political blame game that's ensued.

Annie Pullar: Also, two attempted terror attacks have been foiled in the last week, but we're zeroing in on whether Iran was behind a scare at a UK military base.

Jodi Lee: And a convicted killer in the United States has survived not one but two lethal injections. It's brought into sharp focus the question of whether capital punishment should continue or not.

Annie Pullar: Absolutely wild. But first let's go to our honourable mentions. These are the stories that don't quite warrant a deep dive, but are worth getting your head across this week.

Jodi Lee: And we're starting in the United States at an Ivy League school called Cornell University, where prosecutors have reopened a rape case. back in 2024, a female student alleges that she was drugged and raped after returning to a fraternity house on campus after a wild night of partying. At the time she made those allegations, no charges were laid because prosecutors claimed that her report insisted that the incident was consensual. But this has come sharply back into focus because she has since filed a civil lawsuit. What's particularly been criticized is the university's response to her claims. Two of the men were expelled, but the other five were told to write essays, attend workshops, or take just short suspensions. Her civil lawsuit includes Snapchat messages allegedly sent between fraternity members that c crudely joked on the night that her body was up for free. she's since dropped out of college and her story has certainly struck a nerve with women right across the world.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it's all I've seen on my social media feed this week. But moving to our next honourable mention, there's been a really big backflip in the Lindsay Clancy case. Now, for those who haven't been following this, she was the US mum accused of murdering her three children. she never denied at the time murdering her three children, but the case really came down to whether she was criminally responsible. And after a seven week trial, you may remember the jury just couldn't reach a verdict. They were deadlocked, which caused the judge to actually declare a mistrial. Now, since then, Clancy has appeared back in court this week, and that's when her defence lawyer kind of made this stunning admission, basically claiming the entire case was based on speculation. So her team now wants those murder charges dropped altogether, arguing that the prosecutors never had enough evidence in the first place to prove that she was actually guilty, which is quite a remarkable sort of change of tune when you consider that during the trial her defence never had actually disposed. That she had killed her children. Their whole argument really hinged on her mental health, that she wasn't of sound mind and that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis. So a hearing is set down in November to decide which way this case will go and whether she'll actually face a retrial.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, crazy stuff. Our third honorable mention this week is, of course, back at the Sydney Swans, where suspended player Isaac Heaney has been named the Bob Skilton Medalist. It's the highest honor that you can be awarded at the club, and he was presented that award this week at the best and fairest night. Heaney is obviously one of five players who've been stood down, who were ruled out of all Australian selection, after claims of a wild night of partying and allegations of sexual assault at Melbourne's Pullman Hotel. The players were also asked. Not to attend the Bob Skilton Medal, but he did deliver a video message on receiving the award, saying that every day he spent away from the Swans has been heartbreaking. Of course, the call to hand him that top gong was highly controversial, but it is based on his performance throughout the entire season and not on his behaviour necessarily or alleged behaviour after round 23. The Swans stand by the decision to name him the Bob Skilton Medaler, saying that what happened off the field was dealt with by Yeah.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, I think it's the third time he's actually won this award, but certainly under the circumstances you can understand why it's raising eyebrows.

Jodi Lee: well I guess it is about his footy prowess and not about his alleged off-field behavior. But why don't we move to our very first story this week? Because it's certainly making waves. If, like me, you have a home loan, let's say for argument's sake, you owe the bank $600,000, you are set to pay almost $100 more every single week. That's $100 less that you'll have to pay for your petrol, your groceries, maybe a nice dinner out with your friends, and certainly $100 less each week that you can save toward, you know, Christmas presents or an overseas holiday. Because on Tuesday the Reserve Bank of Australia ra raised the cash rate to four point six percent. It is the highest that it has been for fifteen years.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it's actually the second highest cash rate in the world behind Iceland, which is crazy to consider. Most people I think we can say with a mortgage today have probably never seen the rates this high. and for those who have variable home loans, then I think it really puts you in that dangerous territory. They're sitting somewhere between six and a half and seven percent. And that's, let's be honest, on top of what we're already paying at petrol stations, grocery stores, I mean cost of living. has just never been more of a problem in our country. So I think the big question that we need to ask is why the hell would the Reserve Bank think that making life harder right now is the right call? And Jody, help us boil it down, but I think it all comes down to inflation.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, let's keep it simple. Inflation is really what the Reserve Bank is trying to curtail or keep within what it says is a safe and comfortable range. So inflation, essentially, for argument's sake, is about how fast prices are going up, how expensive things are. And when inflation is high, it means everything is more expensive. Your weekly groceries, your petrol, the cost of doing business for Australian business owners. The RBA or the Reserve Bank of Australia is Australian. Australia's central bank, and as I mentioned, it has figured out that as sort of a comfortable range for inflation is between two and three percent. At the moment, inflation in Australia is sitting at four percent and it's up. From 3.5% back in July. So the Reserve Bank is constantly looking at ways that it can bring that inflation rate down. A big reason why inflation is so high is because of what's been happening in the Middle East. We know that that war there has just shot up the price of oil, which then subsequently shoots up the price of petrol. Petrol and diesel are required to really keep Australia running, and they power most of our industries here, and therefore kind of the cost of everything sort of goes up.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and it's not like it's just one person making this decision. It's sort of more methodical than what I think probably a lot of us realize. So apparently this board meets eight times a year. They used to meet apparently once a month, so less frequently than what they have historically. And basically this decision drops like clockwork at 2 30 p.m. on a Tuesday afternoon. So exactly what we saw unfold this Tuesday. Before that decision gets handed down and it filters through the Media, the board are weighing up a range of different things. They're looking at the global economy, they're looking at the unemployment rate in the country, what's happening with jobs, what's happening with prices, how much pressure a household's under. And then they're also interestingly going out and actually talking to small businesses. And it sounds like this time, what they've been told from small businesses is that they are under immense strain and they're all looking to put up prices to try and survive the economic climate that. we're currently in.

Jodi Lee: So, yes, what you're actually talking about is the RBA's liaison program, and they don't actually canvas just small businesses. They canvass, you know, businesses of all shapes and sizes, if you like. I think close to 900 of them every single year to try and get a flavor and a feel for what's going on on the ground. it's a pretty interesting and imp and critical data set, if you like. What I didn't know about the RBA's board is that there are nine members. This decision to raise the cash rate at this meeting was a unanimous one. That means that every single one of those nine members voted in favor of a hike. Sorry, I knew that there were nine members. What I didn't know was that one of those members is Jenny Wilkinson.

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: Jenny is the Secretary of the Federal Treasury Department. That's basically the head of Federal Treasury underneath the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers. They're apolitical, so she works for the department, not for the party. but I find it interesting because government obviously often tries to distance itself from the decisions of the RBA, saying we don't control the cash rate. It's not a Labour government thing. It's what this independent body has decided to do. But I At the same time, we sort of probably need to remember that the government's chief economic bureaucrat w had a seat at that table.

Annie Pullar: But I think where I get caught up in all of this is why now? Like why are we seeing such a drastic hike? And why have we seen sort of consecutive hikes over the last 12 months?

Jodi Lee: well, look, I'm no economist, but I think

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: the e the simplest answer is less about why now. And I think the question really is why do we, why do they use the cash rate as a lever? And it's

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: one tool that the Reserve Bank has at its disposal to try and take the heat out of the economy. So if you think about it, if you have a lot of cash to spend and you're constantly spending it, There's heat in the market. That means that money is flying. It means that the businesses that you buy from then have cash in their teals. They can go and make investments or take out bigger loans. It just means that there's lots of money and cash flowing through the economy. So there's heat in the market. What the RBA is essentially saying is inflation is too high. So what we're gonna try and do is essentially force people to spend less in the simplest terms. That's businesses and that's individuals. And if we can ask you to tighten, if we can force you to tighten your purse strength. strings a little bit then and and to move about your lives a little bit more conservatively then hopefully it cools down a little bit and inflation will drop from that four percent into the safer range of two to three percent. So it's essentially about trying to get us to spend less.

Annie Pullar: But playing devil's advocate here, I'm interested in why is the approach trying to cool spending within households across the public, and why aren't we looking at spending by our own federal government? Because this has really been a flashpoint this week. Apparently, government spending has hit about 27% of the economy in the last financial year. So that's the highest it's been in 40 years The argument is, when the government continues to spend More so government spending looks like building roads, you know, funding infrastructure projects. That money is ending up in people's pockets and ultimately it's going back into business, which means they have more money to spend, and then you know, we come around in circle, it puts pressure on the economy and the prices go up. But the blame game here has been really swift because the opposition is basically come out and said that domestic government spending has ballooned, then the treasurer Jim Charms is. Saying that's rubbish, he's blaming the whole thing on Donald Trump's war in Iran, but then the RBA hasn't even forecast a scenario of what it would look like if the government reduced their spending. you would think in an economic crisis that might be a top priority looking at government spending, but clear clearly we haven't got that far.

Jodi Lee: I just love how the response was, well look, we can't run an infinite number of hypotheses.

Annie Pullar: yeah.

Jodi Lee: And I'm like, surely that's like a glaringly large one that you probably should whack on the list. Not saying it they need to be infinite,

Annie Pullar: Yeah. Yeah, you'd put that in top three.

Jodi Lee: but like, you know, top three. You'd have thought.

Annie Pullar: Anyway, moving on, what else is being blamed for this mess?

Jodi Lee: Well, yeah, so it's obviously oil prices. We've talked about what's happening in the Middle East. I found it really fascinating, and the RBA's press release actually referenced this for the first time. The impact that the AI boom is having on inflation. Initially, when I read that, I just assumed they meant like the construction of data centers, but that's not what they're talking about at all. Basically, Big AI companies, there is such huge demand for computer chips essentially to run these AI companies that they're buying them up in bulk as fast as they can. That means when you and I go to buy technology like an iPhone, the price of that has become more expensive because global demand for the components that go into your iPhone or your laptop or your microphone or whatever it is are more expensive. So those higher costs then flow down to us and that's contributing to inflation. You know, the problem is that the RBA can't control any of that. It can't it d has no levers to pull in the global AI market. So really the cash rate is is one thing it has at its disposal, as we've said.

Annie Pullar: I mean, as we sit here having this conversation, arguably, I don't think many Australians care about who's to blame. They just want to know when this is all going to end. Because this higher cash rate essentially means that banks are then forced to hike up interest rates, which then hits mortgage holders directly. So if you're someone sitting with a variable home loan, then you're kind of freaking out right now because you know that that's likely to increase. And the mortgage that you had probably financially planned for. or when you purchase that home is now being blown out.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, and the worst part is that many economists are for are forecasting that there will be not only one but another two hikes before the end

Annie Pullar: Jesus.

Jodi Lee: of the year.

Annie Pullar: I mean, how much more can people take though? Like this is the question. You know, you see the government getting rid of surcharges for small businesses, they're now having to absorb those costs. Then now people can't use credit cards when paying the ATO. It really feels like we have a government that is working against people trying to get ahead in this country. I just.

Jodi Lee: definitely not easy. but why don't we move

Annie Pullar: No.

Jodi Lee: to our I should just also warn people this week's episode deals with lots of serious topics. So I don't know that we're gonna get the light reprieve you might crave, but why don't we move on to our second story?

Annie Pullar: We're really sorry, we desperately tried to find something lighter, but we just ended up in a dark zone this week. And it has really been quite a wild few days with two terror scares in two different continents. But I want to start with what happened on this flight to Dubai because those pictures have been deeply confronting.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, so this was a fly Dubai flight from Dubai to Tel Aviv in Israel. one of the pilots, believed to be an Omani national, is accused of stabbing his co-pilot several times in what's been described as an attempt to down the plane in an act of terror. The scenes from inside this plane are just alarming. But essentially, a number of cabin crew members and passengers have managed to open their way into the cabin and perform, I guess, a citizen's arrest on the alleged attacker. They're being hailed as heroes. The pictures of them show them covered in blood. They say that the plane dropped quite dramatically and that one of the passengers was forced to pull a lever to help right the plane. Incredibly, he said he knew how to.

Annie Pullar: I mean, he literally s saved the lives of countless people on that flight who managed to touch down safely. but we are sort of being drip-fed more information about the pilot or the attacker, we should say, at the center of this. Apparently, he had become radicalized, he had been vocal on social media and had been quite anti Semitic towards the Jewish community. So no doubt we'll learn a lot more in the coming days. But I want to move to another terror scare that actually unfolded in the UK, and this one is fairly wild. There were so many twists and turns this week. So five men were essentially arrested over what looked like a major. Terror plot at this military base in the UK. An entire village had to be evacuated, and then within 24 hours, all of these suspects were somehow walking free on bail, and Washington was pointing the finger at Iran saying Iran was to blame.

Jodi Lee: Yes, and this is all thanks to just a quiet farmer in in a rural area of the UK. So this lovely lady is driving home late on Sunday night and she realizes that she sees or the early hours of Sunday morning, I should say, after a night out, and she sees three white vans parked very close to Royal Air Force Base Fairford, which is a British base in southwest England.

Annie Pullar: Yes, and Fairford really matters here because during Trump's war with Iran, the US has essentially been given permission to fly defensive missions from this particular base, and that includes intercepting Iranian missiles. So that war's obviously dragged on for seven months. It's become a massive political flashpoint all around the world. So I need you to keep that in the back of your mind. but let's come back to our farmer. So she apparently spots this group of men in balaclavas running into nearby fields. She does the right thing, she immediately calls police. Within minutes, it's literally teaming with the bomb squad who have basically shut down this entire village, called evacuation orders, and then she later appears across, the landscape of British media and the US media saying, I think I just foiled a terror plot.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, she's hailed as an absolute hero. And let's not forget, all five of these men were initially arrested on suspicion of planning a terror attack. The only trouble was that cops didn't find anything suspicious in s on their person or in the vehicles at all, which is just the strangest turn of events. So there were no explosive devices allegedly found in those vans, just an amount of petrol. What I found fascinating was that all these men were in their 20s. They were all British nationals. And therefore, given the lack, presumed lack of evidence, they were all released on bail. I wasn't the only person who found it bizarre. Donald Trump actually came

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: out, the president of the United States, and said it kind of made no sense to him, and he was surprised too. so you can sort of understand why people are a little outraged. Like on the face of it, It just like the obvious i why are you wearing a balaclava in the middle of the night if you're not up to no good? So it clearly looked like they were up to something.

Annie Pullar: There was a photo of them at that scene, literally all topless in handcuffs, you know, in this lineup. It it was clear that something was going down. I think if we come back to the bail thing, on the surface, yes, it looks like a bizarre decision. Why would you potentially let five, you know, terrorists walk free? But that's not really what's happened here. So apparently Britain's counter-terror chief says that releasing them was this strategic move, and he made that decision with public safety at the front of their mind. And, if we cast our mind back to our police reporter days, Jody, this is, you know, it's a pretty Familiar police tactic. It's basically a chance for them to watch these guys like hawks, see where they go, see who they speak with, really document everyone that enters their sphere, and then they can try to start to piece together who might be behind this because it's very likely that these people who were put up to the job weren't the people actually orchestrating the job.

Jodi Lee: My spidey senses are also saying that it sounds like cops just didn't have enough evidence. You need enough evidence to lay charges against someone and to hold them in a cell. Like you need to be able to, certainly in Australia, you need to be able to prove to a judge that they're too much of a risk to be released. And so perhaps they didn't have enough evidence. What is so fascinating is that we've since learned that one of these five men who were arrested on suspicion of terror actually called emergency services himself before the farmer did.

Annie Pullar: What? Like that this just

Jodi Lee: Yeah. I don't know what Triple Zero is in the UK, but like 999, hello, what are you reporting? My mates are up to no good and I'm also involved. I don't know. So either he

Annie Pullar: But don't you think that's it?

Jodi Lee: either he got cold feet or he's just like it's a strange twilight zone of strategy that is f well beyond my ability to comprehend. Or maybe he

Annie Pullar: Well we

Jodi Lee: just decided he needed an alibi before things unraveled. I have no idea. but of

Annie Pullar: Well if you listen to I was gonna say if you listen to the US Secretary of State Mark Rubio, this is all Iran's fault. Let's just blame Iran. He was literally on it before anyone else. So he came out and said that, you know, some 24 hours after this whole thing unfolded. The UK Prime Minister Andy Burnham was really careful not to jump the gun. But just yesterday he basically came out and said, Yep, I think we can confirm that Iran did have a part to play here, which is really serious

Jodi Lee: Not surprising.

Annie Pullar: when you Yeah, not not surprising because you also have to remember that Iran's revolutionary guard. Which is essentially the country's most powerful military and security force, has time and time again said that, the bases that are supporting the US's war on Iran could become targets.

Jodi Lee: It's so alarming, but it's not surprising because it's been done before. I think, you know, Iran has already proven that it sends proxies to do its dirty work in foreign countries. You don't need to be an Iranian national to act on behalf of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. And we saw it in Australia. You know, you don't have to look that far back. In 2024, that synagogue was bombed in Ripon Lee in Melbourne. The Australian government came out not too long after and said that it was local criminals who'd been hired on the dark web by Iranian forces to carry out that attack. The same was found to be true about the Lewis Continental Kitchen bombing in or not bombing, firebombing I should say, in Bondi. That was a restaurant that just went up in flames and they realized that it was two like low level criminals who had been hired again by representatives of Iran.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and what was interesting about that wave of attacks that we saw in Melbourne, it actually took two years for our domestic spy agency here, ASIO, to actually trace, those people pulling the strings back to Iran. So the fact that the the UK Prime Minister has come out and and all but confirmed that, a foreign actor has been at play and you have the US making those same accusations, it's pretty remarkable that they're that confident. No surprise though, Jody, that the far right in the UK is trying to blame this on a migration problem. Migrants despite the fact that they all live in London and they're all British nationals.

Jodi Lee: It's such a shame. I hope people can see through that. What is pretty alarming, and I've only just realized this now that I made the reference myself, but if you think back to that attack on the synagogue in Melbourne, it was petrol. There was a flammable liquid that was used to set that synagogue alight. And that's what was found

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: in these vehicles. Maybe we're moving to a different phase of terrorism or international warfare, I don't know what you call it, where You know, f a firebombing

Annie Pullar: Mm, it's

Jodi Lee: is all it really takes.

Annie Pullar: I mean it's a hostile time. I I think I think it's scary the fact that we've seen these two incidences, yes, they're not linked, but play out in the same week. But let's move to our last story, which has also, God, we're really just doing stories that have caused outrage this week.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, and I'm really yeah, sorry. There's no happy ending. it kind of has a happy ending.

Annie Pullar: Sorry, it would it's like we're sending everyone in Well, it this is just fascinating. Anyway, let's get into it. It sent the internet into meltdown. A convicted killer in the US southern state of Tennessee was apparently set to be strapped down and executed this week. She was given not one but two lethal doses of injections, and somehow she has survived. I don't know if she's immortal, but it's wild.

Jodi Lee: So you'd probably never heard of her before. I certainly hadn't either until now. Her name is Krista Pike, and she is a convicted killer. So back in 1995, when she was just 18 years old, she was found guilty of murdering a 19-year-old woman by the name of Colleen Slemmer. the case by prosecutors that was, you know, found to be proven true was that she believed she was jealous and she believed that Colleen was trying to steal her boyfriend. So this Pike woman, her boyfriend, and another teenager lured Colleen Slemmer to the woods where she was tortured and killed. It was a horrific crime, and Pike has spent, you know, around thirty years on death row in the United States prison.

Annie Pullar: I mean, it's interesting because I'd actually never heard of her name until this week, but apparently there has been a lot of court drama in the months leading up to this execution because her lawyers had warned that there could actually be problems. Apparently, she has really small veins, and they had warned that, you know, giving these lethal injections could be really damaging and really dangerous, getting the drugs actually into her bloodstream. So they actually went as far to ask if she could be executed by firing. squad instead, but the state of Tennessee wouldn't allow it. At the 11th hour, her lawyers actually tried to overturn that decision, but they ultimately didn't win, so it came back to those lethal injections.

Jodi Lee: Sorry, you must be pretty desperate not to be injected with a lethal substance to request death by firing squad instead.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it's it's kind of crazy when you say it out loud. Like you're saying, Kay, can you not inject me with that lethal thing? I'd rather be shot. It like I can't even believe that this is still happening, but we'll we'll

Jodi Lee: Yeah.

Annie Pullar: get to that soon.

Jodi Lee: And often what I find interesting is that often lawyers go to court trying to get their clients out of the death penalty. Her lawyer didn't even do that. They just said we need to change the method of her execution. Turns out that

Annie Pullar: Exactly.

Jodi Lee: the claims her lawyer made were spot on because when she went to be executed, they actually spent more than an hour trying to find the vein using at least seven needles. I'm sorry, this is so graphic. before they eventually started administering this lethal drug to Christa Pike. It didn't work, so they gave her a second dose of this lethal drug, and at one point, I mean, far out, she lifted her head up and has allegedly said to them or asked them whether the hurting and burning that she could feel was normal. This is a woman who's already warned them that she has problematic veins that it wasn't going to work. I mean it's

Annie Pullar: honestly I feel a little bit sick talking about this story, but the reason we know so much, and this is what I find even wilder, is that seven journalists were let inside to actually watch this execution play out. And obviously I understand the argument for having independent witnesses in the room, but the idea of watching someone be put to death, despite you know the heinous crimes that they may or may not have committed, to me, that just feels fairly messed up. Yeah.

Jodi Lee: As a journalist, we covered so much death and destruction and a lot of tragedy. And I think I always found comfort in the fact that we were I wasn't there as a journalist in someone's dying moments. And any time I had an opportunity to see footage of somebody, you know, being hit by a car or, you know, dying in a really awful way, I always chose not to watch it because I always knew with such a graphic and vivid imagination and mind that I would never be able to get that image out of my head. So I don't know how they've done that.

Annie Pullar: No, and also, arguably it doesn't really matter what they've done. Watching someone's life come to an end is jarring, but here's here's how they described it. I mean, after apparently 90 minutes, this went on for nearly 90 minutes. The execution was then called off. She was rushed to hospital in a critical condition. There's rumors now that she's suffering significant brain damage. But I just want to think about that for a second. So the very state that had nearly spent, you know, an hour and a half trying to kill this convicted murderer. W was now trying to save her life. Tennessee's governor has apparently come out saying we need to put executions on hold for the rest of the year while this independent review gets underway into what went wrong. But I think the reason why this story is particular particularly jarring for us here is because the idea of executing someone in Australia just feels so foreign.

Jodi Lee: Well, yeah, it's so foreign to us because Australia outlawed the death penalty in nineteen sixty-seven. I believe the last person to die, or the last person to be executed by the state was a man called Ronald Ryan, who was hanged in Melbourne for shooting dead a prison guard during an attempted escape. But there were protests against his execution over the years that followed. And then states and territories began to progressively outlaw the move. There's there was then a federal decision that basically banned any state or territory from ever being allowed to reinstate it on its own. So it's just it's it's capital punishment is gone in Australia.

Annie Pullar: I think what's interesting is that if you look at the numbers globally, there are still 54 countries that still use, capital punishment. But America is still a front runner there. So in the last year alone, 29 people have been executed and it's still legal in 27 states. But to put that into perspective here, and I'm just using this as a case reference because it's one that we all know, if you consider someone like Erin Patterson, right? She is obviously The woman that murdered three people over that poisoned beef Wellington Mill, she was sentenced to life in prison with a minimum 33 years behind bars before she can actually apply for parole. So here that's about as serious as the punishment can get. But had a crime like that happened in parts of America, she would probably be facing the death penalty right now.

Jodi Lee: It's and obviously, while Australia doesn't have capital punishment, there are Australians who've been sentenced to death in other countries because the rule is that the country that you commit a crime in is where you are tried. You have to abide by that country's laws. The most famous one is obviously the Bali 9. So they were drug smugglers, which is a huge crime in Indonesia. And the two ringleaders, do you remember Andrew Chan and Maiuran Sukumarin?

Annie Pullar: Yeah, I think.

Jodi Lee: I mean, they had like completely turned their lives around live living in Karobakan prison. And then they were killed by firing squad.

Annie Pullar: I know and I had to ask myself this question when we decided to do this story. Like, how do I feel about the death penalty? And, when you think about the worst of the worst offenders, like the likes of Dennis Ferguson, who have been responsible for just sickening crimes against children, my initial instinct is, well, well, yes, I want them to die. I want them to be executed. But then when you look at the case of this Barley Nine and those two ringleaders who had, you know, found God, they had found art in prison, they were Helping reform other prisoners, I just find it so deeply unfathomable and unfair that they lost their lives over a really ill-informed decision that they made when they were younger with a group of mates. Like they should have, in my opinion, had the opportunity to turn their life around. And they were actively showing that they were prepared to do that, but they were never given that opportunity.

Jodi Lee: for me it's less about rehabilitation or remorse. It's just hypocrisy.

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: How can how can we say that somebody who takes another person's life, aka murders them? How can we say that that is an abhorrent thing to do and therefore you deserve to spend the rest of your life behind bars, but then as a country say, well now it's up to us to decide that you should also lose your life. We

Annie Pullar: Yeah, it it

Jodi Lee: can't how can we make that distinction. Either either somebody has the ability to decide when and if somebody else's life should end or we don't. And I just don't think that it's appropriate for the government or the state or anyone

Annie Pullar: Mm-hmm.

Jodi Lee: to decide when somebody else's time is up.

Annie Pullar: Well what's interesting is this whole case in the US has sparked the question as to whether, some states will essentially abolish the death penalty, but it really doesn't look like it's headed that way. we might park it there though. I'm sorry to leave it on such a debit downer note. I really don't know how to make this sound better. but we hope you enjoyed this week's episode. we hope you learned something, and as always, please get in touch if you have any story suggestions.

Jodi Lee: And we'll see you next week on Covet.

Annie Pullar: Bye.