Jodi: Hello and welcome to Covered, a podcast that helps you figure out what's going on in the news and how you might feel about it.

Annie: Here to guide you through the biggest stories of the week, we are your hosts, journalists Annie Pullar and Jodi Lee.

Jodi: On this week's episode we dive into

Annie: Grace Tame's new podcast at the ABC and the hypocrisy allegations flying around the national broadcaster.

Jodi: The UK teen arrested by police as he lay dying on the ground and why it has divided Britain.

Annie: ⁓ let medicinal cannabis patients get behind the wheel. But first let's go to our honourable mentions. These are stories ⁓ that are worth getting your head across but don't quite warrant a deep dive. ⁓ First up, Kuwait's international airport was hit by an Iranian this week. ⁓ The small Gulf nation was targeted because it hosts major US military bases. Now the strike Shut down flights and killed at least one person. At the same time, Israel and Lebanon have agreed to a very shaky ceasefire, but Lebanese militant group Hezbollah has apparently rejected the terms of the latest deal.

Jodi: Well, if you're into footy like I am, you'll want to keep abreast of this one. Foxtel has made an audacious $4 billion bid to take over the NRL broadcast rights. The deal would kick in from 2028 and effectively cut out free-to-wear channels altogether. As you'd expect, Channel 9 has made its own exclusive counter bid for broadcast rights. Definitely one to stay across, though. But with two new teams entering the competition over the next two years, Other broadcast rights to rugby league are more valuable than ever before.

Annie: And our last honorable mention, these are words that I never thought I would actually say, but a Victorian prisoner serving life for murder is taking the Victorian government to the Supreme Court because he can't eat Vegemite in prison. Now, Vegemite has been banned in Victoria's jail since 2006 because inmates used to smear in it to apparently throw off sniffer dogs. ⁓ prisoner says denying him the spread. ⁓ Breaches his human right to enjoy his culture as an Australian. He is representing himself in court. The trial is next month. It's going to cost taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars. And yes, that is over Vegemite. Only in Australia would you hear a story like this. But I want to go straight to our first deep dive now. This is all about a new podcast, and at the very center is Grace Tame. It is on the ABC. The podcast is about autism. And the subject matter is almost completely irrelevant to why it has caused one of the biggest controversies of the week.

Jodi: To understand, I think, why this has become so controversial, we really need to unpack where Grace Tame is at right now because the public broadcaster hasn't given this podcast deal to the Grace Tame of 2021. Back then she won Australian of the Year after she fought so valiantly, as many of our listeners will remember, against Tasmanian gag laws. She really wanted to be able to publicly speak about her experiences as a survivor of child sexual abuse. ⁓ she won that fight obviously and was awarded the gong. But Grace Tame is now in a very different spotlight. ⁓ and this is the Grace Tame that has been given this opportunity by the public broadcaster.

Annie: Yeah, I think we need to cast our mind back to earlier this year when Grace Tame made headlines for standing in front of a of thousands of people at a Sydney rally protesting the visit. ⁓ Of Israeli President Isaac Herzog, and she essentially led the crowd there ⁓ chanting from to Gaza, globalize the Intifada Now, Intifada is ⁓ an Arabic word, tame at the time, said meant, and I say this in inverted commas, shaking off, for many Jewish Australians and Jewish right around the world, particularly in the shadow of October 7. This means something entirely different. And most people would know it as the name given ⁓ really to two periods in history where Palestinian militants carried out sustained and very violent terror attacks against Israeli civilians. We're talking suicide bombings on public houses, in restaurants, in markets, over 700 ⁓ Israeli were killed. That is the word. And at the time, Grace Tame was essentially asking a crowd of 5,000 people to spread it globally.

Jodi: It's not only, though, what she said at the rally that got her in a lot of strife. Tame subsequently, after those comments, ⁓ appeared on ABC Radio in Sydney to defend her comments. A listener asked her about her silence as being a survivor of sexual assault. They asked about her silence on the documented sexual assault committed by during the October 7 ⁓ atrocities inside Israel. ⁓ Tame called those. ⁓ reports propaganda, which was incredibly problematic and deeply painful and hurtful for members of the Jewish community in Australia, and said that those claims had been debunked. Now, the ABC conducted its own investigation. The Ombudsman ⁓ rejected the views that Tamey expressed about October 7, ⁓ and they found that her claims were appropriately challenged by the ABC radio host at the time. But I think it's fair to say that she doubled down.

Annie: Yeah, and the fallout from that, backlash, was incredibly swift. ⁓ All of Grace Tame's speaking engagements were essentially put on ice or put on hold at the time. ⁓ even in March this year, she actually stood at a conference in Hobart acknowledging that this would be her last presentation, ⁓ making a joke that it was only March. Her foundation then essentially toppled over. It was built around child safety, the doors were closed there. ⁓ And now we have the ABC announcing this. Four part podcast called Autistic AF, exploring the lived experience of autistic women. Now this is a podcast hosted by Grace Tame and funded by the taxpayer. I want to play you a sip. Let's have a listen.

Jodi: You and me. You're a coward, but not a cat.

Annie: Glad she's determined she's not a cat. ⁓ Some strong views are about to laid down. ⁓

Jodi: Yeah, glad we cleared that up. ⁓ before we get to how I feel about this, ⁓ which obviously I have strong Yeah, brace yourselves. ⁓ I think it's worth noting that ⁓ there are people from within ABC itself who also strongly disagree with her appointment as host of this podcast. Charlie Pickering, who many know as a face of the national broadcaster, is himself a Jewish Australian. ⁓ he was stopped, albeit by a far-right. ⁓ media outlet in RV Yemeni and he I think called it problematic her appointment to this role. ⁓ but that is an ABC employee telling the world, I guess, and his employer that they probably got it wrong here.

Annie: The part that sort of starts to sit uncomfortable for me, and I think really gets to the crux of this hypocrisy argument for the ABC in particular, is that this decision doesn't really sit in a vacuum. If you think back to late 2023, and you're probably familiar with this case because it's been widely publicised, but there was a journalist called Antoinette Letouf. Now she was hired as a fill-in presenter on ABC Radio in Sydney. She was three days into this role, and she essentially reposted a human rights watch report. Report on Instagram about food being used as a weapon in Gaza. Now, that same report, the ABC itself had actually covered at the time. But within an hour, Antoinette Letouf was taken off air and she was sacked, told not to come back. The federal court later found that that decision was completely unlawful, that the ABC had surrendered to, and in the judge's words, an orchestrated campaign. By pro-Israel lobbyists. The ABC paid her $220,000 and apologized publicly.

Jodi: Yeah, I mean it doesn't look good for the ABC. So in one breath, they've sacked a journalist for a single social media post, and now there's video of another public ⁓ person in Grace Tame glow you know, calling for the globalisation of the interfada. ⁓ but that's okay. And as Antoinette Latout's court case is playing out, they're literally inking a deal with Tame. I mean, for me, it is hypocritical. It's a double standard, as you've said. That for me is sort of the highest at the highest level. But at an entry level, it's just lazy. Grace Tame isn't the only Australian with a public profile who ⁓ would be living on the autism and Asperger's spectrum. She's not the only Australian woman who could ⁓ who is uniquely qualified to be able to host this podcast. So why do we automatically jump to somebody that's been so controversial? ⁓ has really upset a segment of the community that the ABC has all already had a kind of checkered past with. It just seems lazy from within the ABC.

Annie: Yeah, of all the people that you could think to front a new podcast, it's a very peculiar decision, and one the ABC kind of hasn't really been able to defend because their own spokesperson actually rejected Tame's views around October 7. ⁓ so you have on one instance the national broadcaster rejecting these views, but then they're paying her public money to host a show. For me, I I don't know. I I can't make sense of this decision. Like it's blatantly obvious from the outside that this was going to be an incredibly dangerous choice. So you just have to wonder why the hell they've done it. Like I just can't I I can't wrap my head around it. Like

Jodi: Yes, that's the question. It's the question, like there are more risks than there are rewards. And I just think it also we talk a lot on our podcast about social cohesion and how, quite frankly, we've got it so wrong for so long in Australia. And at what at what point does, you know, we've got a Royal Commission into anti-Semitism and social cohesion currently underway? At what point does the ABC as the public broadcaster look take a step back and say, What kind of message do we want to send to the public? Like

Annie: Mm. Mm.

Jodi: They are in a unique position to set the tone for the population. And basically the message that they're currently sending, the standard that they're currently setting with this appointment, in my view, is look, it doesn't really matter if you vilify and upset this portion of the Australian community being Jewish Australians, it doesn't really matter. We'll still hire you anyway.

Annie: I mean if you look at ⁓ the justification, they're saying that this podcast is about autism, that it's not about the Middle East, and that these two things should exist separately. ⁓ I think that argument only works if you apply it consistently though, and the ABC has kind of shown spectacularly that that it doesn't. It's hard to articulate. I don't want to put down Grace Tame's survivor story and the person that she is and the work that she's done around, you know, child victims of abuse. But I think most Australians watching this play out this week would be asking the same question that we're asking. Like if the ABC has rejected her views around October 7 and acknowledged and debunked them, why are they paying her to be the face of one of their shows? Just ⁓

Jodi: I mean, I think it's very noble of you to try and ⁓ you know, provide credit to her where credit's due, but in my view, she holds selective outrage. How can you be a victim of sexual assault and deny other women their own experience of sexual assault? The two for me just don't equate. You're either a champion for victims or you're not.

Annie: Mm. Yeah, I dare say ⁓ the media won't let this rest, so we'll be watching this four part series very closely. But shall we move to our next story which is outside the borders of Australia?

Jodi: Yes, well, if you haven't been keeping abreast of international news, race riots have effectively broken out in Britain. After a judge sentenced a Sikh man to life for murder, but they're not the kind of race riots that you're probably thinking about.

Annie: No, these have been very ugly, very ⁓ distressing and confronting pro-nationalist riots, people demanding equality for white people, ⁓ you know, saying that white people should be equals here, ⁓ and they're being called the UK's to the Black Lives Matter movement. So I think it's ⁓ it's probably best to try and unpack this from the start.

Jodi: Yeah, let's take you back to this crime and where it all began. So last December, an 18-year-old student by the name of Henry Novak was walking home from a night out in Southampton. He crossed paths with a 23-year-old man by the name of Vikram Digwar. An argument has ensued between the two of them, and Digua has stabbed him five times with a 21 centimeter seek ceremonial blade. Henry Novak died that night.

Annie: Awful, tragic, you know, obviously an incredibly terrible s series of events there, but on its own, not a national story, certainly not a global story. But here's where that all changed, because when police were actually called to that scene, it was Digwa's brother who rang the cops, and he essentially said that Henry was the aggressor, ⁓ that Henry abused Digwa and knocked off his turban.

Jodi: Yeah, but that was actually a lie and a judge found that Henry Novak never made any racial ⁓ slurs or comments towards Digua, but of course the police didn't know that when they got to the scene.

Annie: Yeah, and the body cam ⁓ footage around this is really harrowing. You essentially see cops turn up ⁓ thinking that that the victim is the attacker here, and this is sort of the part that set the entire country alight and has caused these riots because it is all on video ⁓ police were really reluctant to release this body cam because Henry is essentially on the ground. He is clearly in a state of of distress. He's telling them that he's been stabbed, that he can't breathe. ⁓ ⁓ and then one officer you actually hear him say this, I don't think you have, mate.

Jodi: They literally handcuff this teenager while he's dying on the ground. and then they sort of realize their mistake and start to perform CPR on him, but obviously it's too late.

Annie: I just it and I can't it's really difficult to watch. I did watch the whole thing and and media in the UK have actually been really reluctant to play this because it is so disturbing knowing how this transpired, but ⁓ it's obviously something that the the public needs to see and know. so that video actually dropped this week, the day that Digwa was sentenced. The public sees it for the first time, like we have, but the next day ⁓ Southampton, which is ⁓ I'm pretty sure the south coast of England erupts. There's thousands of people that are essentially piling outside this police station and it turns into a full-blown clash. Bricks and bottles are being hurled, ⁓ are on fire, and thrown at police. Eleven officers and a police dog were hurt ⁓ during that massive sort of altercation. ⁓

Jodi: It's anarchy, but I mean, as absolutely heart wrenching as it is to watch that footage, the one thing that stands out for me is, ⁓ that poor boy just I can't breathe. And it's eerily reminiscent, right, of George Floyd's comments back in 2020. And that's why they're calling this ⁓ you know, Britain's answer the Black Lives ⁓ Matter movement. Only this it's in reverse, obviously. So George Floyd is a

Annie: Mm.

Jodi: was a black man, an African American man, and the cops there were white. In this instance, the victim is white. and I guess the commentary coming out of the UK, some accusations are that British police ⁓ failed Henry Novak because they were scared to look racist. And they're saying that it's a two-tier Britain. That's the calls that they're kind of chanting at these rallies.

Annie: Yeah, there's a there's a lot of big questions now around the police handling that's dividing the country, but also politicians appear to be seizing on it. The big names have been piling in very quickly. ⁓ one of them being Nigel Farage, the Brexit frontman, now leading a hard right anti immigration party called Reform that's actually topping the national polls. He told people to respond ⁓ and I quote, pure cold rage. He ⁓ said ⁓ at a at a recent press. press conference that he thought ⁓ Henry's family's response had been incredibly diplomatic and it was time for the public now to get angry. Elon Musk also pushed the video to hundreds of millions of his followers and ordered to fund a private prosecution against the police.

Jodi: Yeah. ⁓ well the UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer said he watched the video and felt sick, but then he accused ⁓ Farage of trying to exploit a dead teenager, and he called Farage's language unforgivable. ⁓ obviously politicizing someone's death is never a good good response, but clearly inevitably that's what happens. But it's obviously not all one way. Even on the right of UK politics, which I found really fascinating, the conservative leader Kemi Badenov. Her own family's actually mixed race. She went at Farage pretty directly, which is interesting. ⁓ and she also piled on saying to him that you can't fix this by whipping up ⁓ and upset.

Annie: I mean, there's been a lot of commentary from all sides of politics, but I think the words that ⁓ truly matter the most are ⁓ are the ones that have come out of Henry's family. His dad actually stood outside court and said it very plainly that this wasn't about race. He said, Don't use my son's death to divide people. ⁓

Jodi: God, you take your heart your heartbreaks for the Novak family, right? And, you know, honestly, it is so noble of them to do everything they can publicly to try and ⁓ separate their son's murder from politics in the UK. But I think it's important to recognize that Henry Novak's death is ⁓ the spark But it's not the root cause of this anger and frustration in the UK. And this resentment and this idea that the white working class has been abandoned or left behind has really been brewing in the UK f for years. I mean, I I hate to call a spade a fucking shovel, but it's anti-migration sentiment. It's racism. ⁓ It's what you saw with Brexit, these claims that migrants were stealing jobs and that the UK was better off on its own. Obviously, they've been rallying against record migration numbers, the arrival of small boats. And then back in 2024 in Southport, you know, you might be familiar with the fact that there were these three young girls who were murdered and there were kind of ⁓ actually claims of ⁓ racial crime there. But ⁓ this idea within the white working class that ⁓ The system looks different for everyone, and that ⁓ new arrivals, or really like non-white British people, have an easier ride than the white working class. ⁓ And obviously, there's this guy, Tommy Robinson, who is an incredibly well-known far-right figure, an agitator who's very big on social media. He also espouses this kind of anti-Islamic rhetoric, very anti-migration. He has a criminal record, but also, unfortunately, a mass following. ⁓ and he espouses these really dangerous ideas to those people who follow him. He pulls hund like hundreds of thousands of people ⁓ to London, to big rallies. and unfortunately Henry Novak's death is just the latest ⁓ cause that this crowd is

Annie: Yeah, there's no doubt this is happening, ⁓ or this has happened, I should say, at a very turbulent time in the UK. The political landscape there has been incredibly uncertain. I find it really interesting and and as we speak about this, I'm thinking maybe he's done it because he doesn't want to be seen to be politicizing this young man's death. But Prime Minister Sakir Starmer has essentially been nowhere, ⁓ To be seen during this entire period, and he's largely said very little, which is pretty extraordinary ⁓ when you think about it, because this is the same prime minister who, when George Floyd died in the United States, actually wrote to Boris Johnson, who was the leader at the time, saying that Britain had a moral obligation to speak out about a death that happened on another continent. And then you have a teenager. Who dies in his own streets? You have this horrific body cam footage released to the public. You have people writing. And he essentially has to be pressured by the Speaker of the House of Commons into even delivering a speech to react to all of this. This speech was just 89 words. And you sort of mentioned it before. It was very much along the lines of this is awful, this is shocking, I can't believe it. But that was really the crux of this, and I just think, yeah, I don't know, at a time that he is literally fighting for his political survival, ⁓ he has his own MPs essentially trying to kick him out the door and pressure him to resign. I just think now is the time to show strength in leadership, but ⁓ it just seems like he's handing all of this ammunition straight to his ⁓ opponents.

Jodi: Well, it's interesting, you say he should be saying it because he's in a fight for his survival, and I reckon that's exactly the reason why he hasn't said anything. ⁓ it's amazing how much empathy a politician can show when they're not in government and they can stick their neck out, as you said, right to then Prime Minister Boris Johnson and demand action. But when your head is on the chopping block, you see this, both in Australia and abroad, that politicians become very reticent to make any move at all. And sitting on the fence and keeping your mouth shut is as They often feel the safest strategy to keeping the job. Because saying something might appease a small, you know, one part of the community, but it could also piss off and aggravate another part. And they're all constituents and they all head to the polls at the end of the day. So ⁓ I sort of under I don't agree with it, but I certainly understand why he hasn't said anything. For me, though, if you zoom out, this isn't a uniquely British problem. We've spoken a lot on the about the rise of far-right politics across Europe, and we've also touched on the fact that it's inching into Australian politics. ⁓ One Nation and Pauline Hansen herself and the party has edged ahead of Labour as the most popular party the Australian polls right now. That's I mean, it's happening here. ⁓

Annie: I mean, we've been seeing this orange wave gain ⁓ popularity, but ⁓ Hansen has actually openly out this saying that she could be Prime Minister, that that's essentially what she's trying to do here. ⁓ but even on the streets in our own country, we have or we're at least seeing neo-Nazis marching again. ⁓ just recently, 60 men in black all ⁓ outside the New South Wales Parliament with banner reading abolish the Jewish lobby. ⁓ So this this is not isolated to the UK. I think that's the point that we're trying to make here.

Jodi: No. And this is why it enrages me so much when ⁓ anyone, but particularly members of minorities, feel aggrieved to the point that they want to ⁓ edge toward far up right far right politics because it's a zero-sum game. No one wins. ⁓ and the judge in this case said pretty much the same thing. Back in the UK, the judge warned that this one man's crime has left ordinary Sikhs frightened, naturally. And they're people who've done nothing wrong. Their own community called it a moment of madness and has obviously denounced this murder. ⁓ but no one wins.

Annie: No, and it's sad because it you know something like this happens and it's easy to jump straight to ⁓ you know, the the religious element all of this and throw shade where you will, but you also have a community that are equally outraged by what has happened and condemning this entire situation. But I wanna bring it back to Henry now because I think ⁓ you know, two things are true at once here. It's obvious that the police did fail him and and that needs answers. There's obviously calls for further investigations there. but a dead 18-year-old is now being turned into a movement by people who can really smell a political opportunity here. And I I think if you were Henry's family, you're sitting here in the middle of this as body cam footage is played to the world. ⁓ just does it really matter about the politics of all of this? I mean, you've lost your son. But putting all of the politics aside, for me, ⁓ yeah, there surely just has to be answers ⁓ as to how police got it so wrong, ⁓ and also questions around, know, religious exemptions and limitations around these ceremonial weapons. This is a this is a knife crime problem for me as well.

Jodi: See, I don't agree because one bad Sikh does not mean that an entire religious, a religious group needs to give up what is fundamental to their observance. And I think that's important if they're Sikhs, I think that's important if they're Muslims, I think that's important if they're Christians, and I think it's important if they're Jews, Jews. ⁓ it's not about religion. The far right is trying to make it about religion. They're trying to basically say a brown man did this to a white man and we need to we need to solve the problem. And I'm here to say, well, my view is that's not what's happened here, and it's a convenient argument for them because they're already anti-migration, anti-Islamic and fascist and far right. I'm here to say just take a breath and you are right. This is about Henry Novak's family. For me, it's also about the failures of the police force, and that needs to be looked at.

Annie: Yeah, it's incredibly heavy and there will be a lot more to come on all of this, but I wanna move from our last to our last story, I should say, which is all about cannabis. I don't even know how to make this segue, but there you go. I just made it. ⁓

Jodi: Yes. No segue to be made. Well done. Smooth sailing.

Annie: I mean depending on where you sit with this one, ⁓ this story is either long overdue or a very worrying precedent and a very slippery slope. But the Minns government this week announced that it wants to let medicinal cannabis patients drive, calling it the biggest overhaul to New South Wales road rules in 20 years, and the legislation ⁓ apparently coming this month.

Jodi: Yeah, I gotta admit, when you first brought this story to the table, I thought it was freaking niche. I thought, to be honest, why should I care about this? ⁓ but obviously, as always happens when we dive into a topic, I've realized just how fascinating and crucial this is to talk about. So essentially, there are over a million Australians who have been the recipient of a medicinal cannabis prescription, and apparently a third of them are right here in New South Wales. There are also some really famous faces.

Annie: Ha ha ha.

Jodi: who are among them. They trotted them out at the New South Wales Government Press Conference on this this morning, but it means that many of them can't drive.

Annie: Yeah, it's a staggering number of people that are relying on medicinal ⁓ cannabis for a range of problems. I never even knew how many people were dependent on on medication like this. But I think it's worth pointing out under the current laws, every single one of these people is technically breaking the law every time they get behind the wheel after taking their medication, which is legally prescribed. So any detectable ⁓ trace of THC, which is the ⁓ active compound or ingredient in cannabis that produces the effect and you're essentially facing a drug driving charge. It doesn't matter if you took it the night before, it doesn't matter if you're feeling fine. It doesn't matter if it's all above board, you're breaking the law.

Jodi: Yeah. And if you think about that, what that practically means, like put yourself in the shoes of an Australian that lives, say in like a regional or rural ⁓ area that needs their car to get around. That means that every morning they're waking up and effectively choosing between taking the medication that they need, be it for, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder or for chronic pain and inflammation, like really debilitating conditions. We're forced this current law the current legislation is forcing them to choose between taking their medication as prescribed by a doctor or being able to go about their daily life and be mobile in the community. So they're either stuck at home and, you know, experiencing some relief, or they're able to leave the house but have to live in pain or or gross discomfort.

Annie: Yeah. It's a really unfair decision to be put in, particularly when you're going through all the right channels to get medication like this. But I think from the outset we need to say that this is not a new conversation. the government actually commissioned a review ⁓ couple of years ago in 2024 because these laws were producing some really unfair and harsh outcomes for people who have done nothing wrong. ⁓ were getting caught at roadside tests, they were ⁓ Then losing their jobs because of the charges, or ⁓ you know, their housing was put at risk even though they were put on these completely legal prescriptions. So what Minns is trying to do here is introduce a limit on how much THC can actually be in your system. So think similar to a blood alcohol limit for drink driving. ⁓ you come in, if you come in under that, you're free to go.

Jodi: Yes, so that makes a lot of sense. Okay. The other thing that is think is worth noting is this is kind of like a two-step process now. So basically if they pick up cannabis in your system, then you're banned from driving for 24 hours while your test goes to a lab. Apparently it obviously can't be detected as quickly as alcohol. it goes to a lab, so for those 24 hours you can't get behind the wheel, and then it's revisited once your lab sample comes back.

Annie: I'm not to laugh about this, but it's just like a very logistical, ⁓ challenging, ⁓ don't like when you read the rules out loud, I'm like, how is any of this actually gonna work? ⁓ But ⁓ we read it out on paper as it is, if your THC is under the legal limit, no charge, nothing further. But if you come back over it, that is where a three-strike system essentially kicks in. First step, if it's detected, you get a warning. The second detection, another warning. And it's only the third time within two years of being picked up that a fine would essentially be triggered and a minimum three-month license suspension would be enacted. So very confusing, very convoluted, ⁓ and there are a few exemptions to these ⁓ new laws, including learners, pea platers, and commercial drivers.

Jodi: Okay, obviously it goes without saying that you need to have a prescription. So this does not apply for people just like having a toque in the backyard. Let's just disclaim it there. but I just know, like if I think about how this is going to be perceived, I know that every idiot on at the pub on Friday night is gonna be like, why is it fair that if you have medicinal cannabis, you get three strikes and you're out? But if I'm over the legal limit after having an extra drink, I'm done for.

Annie: Yes. Mm. No, well, that is, yeah, I think that's the distinction that people are probably going to struggle with, as you say, at the pub on a Friday night. But it it really is the question at the heart of all of this because I think the reality here is a positive roadside test, it doesn't mean that you are high. The THC isn't like alcohol. It can sit in your system for hours, sometimes days, long after the effects have actually worn off. So The law has, as it stands, been punishing people for something that is not actually happening anymore. And as you mentioned earlier, ⁓ the New South Wales government rolled out some some very high-profile people to essentially sprue these new laws. ⁓ of them was NRL legend Andrew Johns, who actually takes medicinal cannabis for epilepsy. And he put it pretty bluntly this week. He said that he ⁓ takes this medication at night at around 8 p.m. A couple of hours later he falls asleep. ⁓ He wakes up clear headed, feeling ready to go for his day, and that he's actually spent the last six years dreading getting in the car and being pulled over for something ⁓ that stopped affecting him while he was bloody clonked out asleep. I don't know, it makes sense to me.

Jodi: ⁓ well, if Joey John says it so, then I'm all for it. I'm here for it.

Annie: She's easily swayed. Involved with NRL star. Jody Lee's on board.

Jodi: No, no, no. I'm kidding. But he d No, I'm not that fickle. Come on. but you know, you have to you have to admit that it is kind of hard hard to argue with, right? If somebody was taking blood pressure medication, it just would not be acceptable to say to them, ⁓ cease taking that medication if you'd like to drive. ⁓ and I think critically for me, the fact that the police association is behind this really says something. They are obviously the officers that see The outcome of horrific road trauma. So they know the consequence, they understand the rules really intimately, and they're the ones at the coalface dealing with drivers who make dumb decisions every day. They've also spent years seeing these cases collapse in court because magistrates could see the person in front of them was not impaired. They just had THC still in their system. So I guess what Chris Mins is saying here is that at some point the law kind of has to catch up with reality.

Annie: Yeah, and I am in agreement with that. But I think the part where I've been getting a little bit stuck is after reading what our medical community are saying, and they've really been up in arms about this. Not all of the medical community, but a very strong portion of them. They've been accusing Premier Chris Mins of gambling with lives here. A trauma surgeon actually gave an interview to the Daily Telegraph this week. He came out and he said ⁓ that THC actually does impair every cognitive function required for driving for hours. And there's absolutely no way to measure that at the roadside. So it kind of directly contradicts what the government is arguing. And if you look more globally where cannabis is being legalized, particularly in the United States, there's new data that's come out in the last year that found a 5.2% rise in road accidents in particular states. Where cannabis was legalized. So I don't know, you have full recreational legalization, not a medical scheme, but it raises the question that i if there is no proven safe threshold, are we just picking a number here and and shooting for the stars? Like is there any science behind this actually working?

Jodi: Well, that's the argument that New South Wales opposition leader Kelly Sloane has made, but I think it's also the reason why a twelve month sort of review really matters. The government is essentially acknowledging ⁓ that they don't have all the or it doesn't have all the answers. ⁓ and that's why it'll be under review for twelve months. Interestingly, it's we're not New South Wales isn't the first jurisdiction in Australia to try this. It's been underway for years in Tasmania. Victoria moved on this last year. And evidence from others from those other states and territories hasn't necessarily set off alarm bells, not yet, anyway. So ⁓ I don't know. I I think this is probably i you know, the government essentially saying, Look, this is a problem and we're trying to c close the gap, albeit quite carefully.

Annie: Yeah, and props on them for trying. They're obviously listening to everyday people who are, you know, are essentially being buoyed by the the current laws, not being able to live their lives. I just think the science yet probably isn't quite there. The threshold is untested and and I don't know, it always scares me that we're running this experiment on public roads, but I have I guess you have to start somewhere. ⁓ I don't know. The jury's

Jodi: I love you saying props I love you saying props to the government for trying. It's like Annie has awarded the participation award to Chris Mins.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, yes. Yes, our honorable mention goes to Chris Mins. I don't know. I actually am a big fan of Chris Minnes. I find him I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but he's a bit of a dilf. He seems pretty reasonable. He s Should I just round out the episode with that? I don't know how we got from medicinal cannabis to Minns being a dilf, but anyway, we got there. We hope you enjoyed this week's episode. ⁓ and we can't wait to see you next week with the week's biggest stories.

Jodi: Think that's us.

Annie: I don't