Jodi Lee: Hello and welcome to Covet, a podcast that helps you figure out what's going on in the news and how you might feel about it.

Annie Pullar: Here to guide you through the biggest stories of the week, we are your hosts, journalists Annie Puller and Jodie Lee.

Jodi Lee: On this week's episode of COVID, we dive into the Lindsay Clancy murder case, which has really gripped the entire world with a jury unable to reach a unanimous verdict.

Annie Pullar: Also, why house prices are plunging across the country, should we be happy or seriously concerned?

Jodi Lee: And Metgala Controversy, the Costume Institute, cancels an exhibition that was designed to showcase the work of British fashion designer John Galliano. We delve into just why they did it.

Annie Pullar: But first let's get to our honourable mentions. So these are the stories that don't quite warrant a deep dive, but are worth getting your head across this week.

Jodi Lee: Yes, and our first honorable mention is that the so-called Pullman Five have been reduced to four. Of course, that was the nickname given to the five Sydney Swans players who have been stood down for the remainder of the season over sexual assault allegations made by three exotic dancers. Isaac Heaney, Chad Warner, Nick Blakey, James Jordan, and Riley Bice have been ruled out of the side's finals push, but Victoria police now say that only four of the men have been formally questioned. Riley Bice has actually been cleared of any wrongdoing and is now being treated solely as a witness. It's important to note, though, that no charges have been laid in this situation, and it doesn't sound like There'll be an update from Victoria Police for at least another couple of weeks, which means this police investigation will stretch well beyond the end of the AFL season.

Annie Pullar: Our next honourable mention, it's officially been a week since that devastating natural disaster hit the Nepal-Tibet border, and now Australia is getting involved, sending a team of 15 disaster response workers to aid with recovery efforts in Nepal, obviously in the wake of that awful landslide that hit. The team, which includes drone operators and members of Fire and Rescue New South Wales, as well as the Queensland Fire Department, are apparently going to be providing aerial capability to rescue crews on. The ground. The numbers are still changing as we speak, but there are already 19 Australian workers on the ground currently in Nepal. 38 Australians are still reported missing as well. The latest death toll stands at around 1200, with more than I think about 4,500 people still missing in the region. However, there have been some incredible stories of survival in the last couple of days. Two people pulled from an underground power plant, somehow remarkably alive after spending seven days pretty much suffocated underground.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, trapped under all that sludge. Our third and final honorable mention for this week is that it is the end of an era in international football, with Argentine superstar Lionel Messi announcing his retirement from the international competition. So Messi represented Argentina for 21 years. He made appearances in a record equaling six World Cups and capped his career by winning the World Cup in 2022. He announced his decision on social media, writing that at the age of 39, which is quite incredible, the time has finally come. he's not hanging up his football boots just yet, though. Messi still continues to play at a club level. He's currently signed to Inter Miami in the major league soccer.

Annie Pullar: Honestly, there will never be another Bessie at the age of what, 39? Like, how do how do you still play football so competitively at the top of your game? But first, let's move to a story that has captivated the world over the last seven weeks: the Lindsay Clancy trial in the US. This is a case that we first covered as it got underway in Massachusetts. Clancy, just a reminder, is the mother accused of murdering her three young children. Whether she was criminally responsible for doing so. Has sort of been at the centre of this case. And after seven weeks of really harrowing evidence, more than 80 witnesses, hundreds of photographs, videos played to the court. Now this trial has actually ended in a mistrial as the jury couldn't reach a verdict. They were deadlocked, forcing the judge to declare that mistrial to the court in the early hours of Saturday morning in the US. And as he discharged them, he actually quoted the great Winston Churchill. I want to play that video now.

Jodi Lee: Incredibly powerful words. I think it's worth a recap for anybody that wasn't following this trial as closely as we were, or perhaps doesn't quite remember the detail that we covered earlier. So essentially Lindsay Clancy was, I don't know if you could say ironically, but a labour and delivery nurse. That's what she did for a job. And she was living with her husband, Patrick Clancy, in Massachusetts. And they had three children: Cora, who was five, Dawson, who was three, and Callan, who was just eight months old. After her third child was born, Lindsay's mental health really took a dive, but she was seeking help. She was heavily medicated for severe anxiety and insomnia, prescribed a range of different drugs by a range of different mental health professionals, and she also spent time in mental health wards in hospitals.

Annie Pullar: and if we cast our mind back, it was January twenty-four back in twenty twenty three that Lindsay Clancy killed all three children inside their family home before trying to take her own life. Fall out of a window left her paralysed. She's sat through this trial, which has been publicized to the world in a wheelchair, and she has actually pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. And her defense really hinged this entire case on postpartum psychosis, which, as we know, is very different to postpartum depression. It can cause blackouts, disassociations with reality, all of the things that Lindsay Clancy says she was experiencing while raising these three children. They argue. That she really did lose touch with herself and lose touch with reality, and she continuously heard a male voice telling her to kill her three children.

Jodi Lee: I think it's really, really important to touch on the fact that you very confidently, not once but twice, said Lindsay Clancy killed her three children. Typically, when we talk about a court case that hasn't ended in a conviction, we would have to use the words allegedly or is accused of. But that's not what is happening with the Lindsay Clancy trial, which is why it's so fascinating. She doesn't dispute that she killed the children, but the circumstances surrounding it and her mental condition at the time are what's in question. So As you rightly said, her defense is claiming that she was suffering from postnatal psychosis. But the prosecution is arguing that the that these killings were planned. They point to evidence that Lindsay had checked the travel time of her husband to a restaurant before sending him out to collect dinner for the family. they say that she was unwell, and they don't question that, but say that she wasn't psychotic and that she knew right from wrong, and more importantly, that she knew exactly what she was doing. So it wasn't down to this jury of nine women and three men to decide whether or not Lindsay did this. They had to decide whether the prosecution had proved beyond reasonable doubt that she was criminally responsible for what she did. Again, they had to prove whether. Beyond reasonable doubt, she was criminally able to be held responsible. It's a really high bar. And if the evidence left even one juror with any kind of doubt over whether Lindsay could understand what she was doing at the time, they actually weren't legally able to convict her.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, and I mean I would have hated to be a juror sitting on this trial. It was gonna be turbocharged from the very start. Because you have to remember we had a criminal trial playing out, but we also had a public trial by media. Which wouldn't

Jodi Lee: Mm.

Annie Pullar: have been easy for this jury to deal with, considering this case was being broadcast and live streamed also on YouTube. What happened when these twelve jurors essentially went behind closed doors is they faced a trial within a trial amongst the group that they were dealing with. They deliberate For some 40 hours across seven days, and they repeatedly kept coming back to the judge saying, We just cannot agree. We cannot reach a unanimous decision. The judge essentially told them, Well, I'm not gonna settle for that. You need to go back, you need to work through it. He reminded them the benchmark of reasonable doubt. He reminded them, you know, what that means and what charges are before them. But again, they were so deadlocked, and in the end, it it didn't matter what instructions he He gave them they just couldn't reach a decision which led to the judge then addressing the court saying that I have no choice here but to declare this a mistrial.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, but we also know that they were at loggerheads with one another. You have to remember that jurors are forced to come to a unanimous verdict, which means they need to agree on their decision. And we know that the jury four person, who's kind of the spokesperson that speaks on behalf of that panel, raised concerns about a single juror, saying that that basically this person wasn't properly applying the judge's instructions around this idea of beyond reasonable doubt. I've since read, and I find the makeup of a jury really interesting, that it was nine women. And three men and that apparently this Allegedly problematic juror was a man. And I find it really interesting given it given the crimes that Lindsay Clancy is accused of, and the way that largely the female population has rallied around her throughout the trial. Anyway, they tried to get this juror removed from the jury. The judge came out and said, Look, I can't pick sides between one juror and the remaining 11, so you're just gonna have to figure it out amongst yourselves. and he basically reminded the entire panel of the law and just said, get back to your job and they still weren't able to do it.

Annie Pullar: I mean it's hard to sit here and not Have our own judgment on this case because, as a female, having listened to a lot of the evidence, and there were a lot of holes in the prosecution's case, you know, around the fact that she was being ping-ponged between doctors, she was on a cocktail of medications, no one was really connecting the dots as to how sick she really was. It is so hard to sit here and go, How can this mother be held criminally responsible? But you have to imagine the questions that the jury were up against, and playing devil's advocate. You know, that one juror is entitled to not be convinced. That's that's justice. That is the jury system. So apparently by Friday, they'd reached the end of the road. They submitted one final note to the judge which read with a heavy heart, they were unable to reach that unanimous verdict. And then even then, Clancy's defence team still wouldn't accept it. They actually lodged this sort of last-hour emergency appeal with the highest court in Massachusetts over that single juror. That then failed and then obviously it's it's rolled.

Jodi Lee: Yes, so sorry. What hasn't been mentioned is that Clancy's lawyer came out outside court and actually claimed whether or not he could really know this to be true, claimed that it was eleven to one, that eleven jurors were prepared to con to to to declare that she was not guilty and that one of them was not convinced beyond reasonable doubt. And maybe we listened to Kevin Reddington 'cause it's wild.

Annie Pullar: I mean, it it is just so devastating this case, and you cannot imagine what she has endured sitting through that trial. She's had to literally watch her her baby's clothes be pulled out as evidence. She's had to confront, her ex-husband sitting in the dock giving evidence And then she's also had to confront, you know, probably many people sitting in that courtroom that think she's you know, the world's worst mother, that she did kill her children and that she should be held accountable. What I find really interesting about what's different in the US compared to Australia and having recently covered a court case, usually when a jury reaches, an eleven to to one position where there's one juror that that's not in agreement with the rest of the group, they can settle on a majority verdict. But in the US that that doesn't happen. So that's why it led to this huge process of having to go through appeals, all 12 actually had to agree. And now, you know, I think the defense is certainly treating this as a victory, They see this as a success because ultimately they've done their job. Eleven jurors weren't convinced that she did criminally have intent to kill her children.

Jodi Lee: I think what's really important is that while this is somewhat of a success for her defense team, it's sort of the end and the beginning of a new process. There's no closure here from anyone, there's no answers if you can call it either of those things. So the case comes back to court on the 29th of September. It's obviously been declared a mistrial, but that doesn't mean that she's been acquitted. So those three murder charges still remain. Lindsay Clancy is still charged and accused of triple murder. prosecutors basically now need to decide whether they put her on trial again before an entirely new jury. That means impaneling a new jury, that means finding new jurors who haven't necessarily been exposed to the case. the way that it played out so publicly over the last few weeks. or they could try and potentially negotiate a plea deal with her team or decide not to proceed altogether. They could drop the charges, but it does leave prosecutors in a very tricky spot. We will hopefully have an idea of which direction they decide to take though in a couple of weeks when it comes back to court.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, I mean you can't imagine a retrial is the right route to take here considering the last seven weeks that everyone has been through involved in this case. But I guess if there is any silver lining, if we can call it that, is that it has really put a spotlight on the conversation around, you know, postpartum mental health and and and women and mums and the issues that they face and really when they're telling people that they're struggling, it is the job of of society of doctor. Of the medical community to connect those dots and take it seriously. But let's move on to our next story, which is one that I've really struggled to wrap my head around this week, and that is that house prices are tumbling right across the country. Apparently, they are falling in 93% of capital city suburbs across the country. The average Sydney home has had $100,000 wiped off since February, which is fairly insane. And nationally prices have fallen for five months straight. So depending on how you look at it, I think we're either staring down at a serious property crash, a slump, which with very concerning outcomes or it's good news. I mean, am I the only one sitting here thinking this is kind of positive that house prices are coming down?

Jodi Lee: Think so. I think it depends where you sit in the property market. Do you own property and were you hoping that it would be a capital gain for you and that you could just park your cash in a in an apartment or a home and it could grow and deliver you massive returns? Or are you desperately trying to crack into the property market and therefore falling prices might seem like a good idea? I think what's important to note is that this doesn't necessarily this isn't a massive correction. Prices were incredibly high. Some of that heat is now coming off. So yes, by and large, if you're looking to break in, that's always a good thing. But it's not, it's not a solve to our housing crisis because the housing crisis has been caused by a number of really big factors at play. Namely, that house prices far outgrew wage growth. So basically, our wages, what you earn in your job, were growing very slowly, and house prices fast outpaced them. That gap hasn't been closed. I don't know about you, but I'm not earning earning any more money.

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: A hundred a hundred grand off the pro cost of a property in Sydney is really of no consequence. Also, the cost to borrow that money is so high. Interest rates are really high, it's expensive to borrow, and people who might have saved a deposit may not be able to afford the cost of a mortgage.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, so what you're saying is there's really no single reason for why this is happening. It's really a perfect storm, a trifecta of factors coming together and putting a slump on the market. But you also have to consider Labour's very controversial budget, which you'll remember we covered at the time quite extensively. You might remember Jody alluded to the government as having the brain of a mushroom. But Two things that raised the alarm from that budget was obviously the changes around negative gearing and capital gains tax. Basically making it less financially attractive to buy an existing home and rent it out. So the government sold that whole change that's leveling the playing field for buyers, trying to make it more attractive for younger people to be able to buy into the market. But has it really done that? I mean, look, we're a couple of months on from that budget, and now we're sitting here talking about a plunging. property market that's sort of being driven by a range of factors particularly cost of living pressures which is putting even more pressure on rent so I don't really

Jodi Lee: Yeah.

Annie Pullar: know how to feel about this situation.

Jodi Lee: And speaking of speaking of the factors that have contributed, the other two that are also at play are the war in the Middle East is obviously putting huge pressure on costs and supply around the entire world. So obviously the cost of oil and then petrol and diesel goes up, makes it more expensive to ship supplies like building supplies, like bricks and timber and concrete. and so that puts pressure on supply and the construction of new properties. The other thing that also constrains construction is Migration policy. And all of the major parties, obviously one nation leading the charge, but we've spoken about this a lot as a result of One Nation's crackdown on immigration. Both the Labour, both Labour and the Liberals have come out with anti-migration, but a correction of Australia's current migration policy. And big industries have actually gone back to both parties and said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Where are we gonna get builders? Where

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: are we going to get tilers? Where are we going to get architects from? Like All the these are all nice in theory, but we need skilled migrants to come to the country to continue to prop up and support industries like the construction trades. So there's lots going on that's contributed to this for sure.

Annie Pullar: Yeah. There is, and it it also comes at a time that, as you mentioned, the conflict happening around the world, like we are seeing building businesses, construction businesses collapse every day in this country because they cannot afford to continue. The problem, the original problem, really hasn't disappeared. You you mentioned migration, it's a real hotbed at the moment, but Australia does not have enough homes. So Labour promised 1.2 million new ones over the next five years. We're apparently at this point expected to fall short. Of about two hundred thousand of that number. To me, the government selling it as, you know, the the property market going through a correction, this doesn't feel like a correction.

Jodi Lee: sort of has the inkling of the R word. Like I keep wanting to ask, are we in a recession?

Annie Pullar: But surely we are, like I know they haven't come out and said that, but it really is looking and feeling like we are very much in the R category.

Jodi Lee: Well, history would suggest that falling house prices, even if they take a sharp dive, doesn't automatically mean that we're in a recession. Between twenty

Annie Pullar: We're not.

Jodi Lee: seventeen and twenty nineteen, under the coalition governments of Malcolm Turnbull and Scott Morrison, Sydney house prices, which is Australia's hottest property market, fell around fifteen percent. Now, that wasn't due to interest rates at all. It had nothing to do with that. The regulators cracked down on how easily the banks were able to loan money to people, so it just became a lot harder. to get a mortgage. It was just the regul it was a it was tighter regulation that did that. So but we avoided a recession at that time because Australians still had jobs. So I think the jobs the jobless rate is what's key there.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, I think also if you come back to, you know, what Jim Chalmers is plugging, the the Treasury Department, which is the government department that forecasts sort of what policies might do to the economy. So what those tax changes in the budget might do to the broader market, they estimated that those changes would make house price growth about two percent lower than it otherwise would have been over the next couple of years. He's appeared on several, morning breakfast shows over the last couple of weeks having to defend what's happening but there was a particular interview on the ABC Four Corners which I want you to listen to because he says we all just need to really take a long-term view of what's happening.

Jodi Lee: Settle down.

Annie Pullar: Calm the farm

Jodi Lee: So I I mean I sort of hear what he's saying and I I

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: understand why he's right and why why he's wrong at the same time. So I think traditionally speaking, housing should have been a long-term prospect. And he is right. People don't necessarily buy a home, live in it for six months, and then flog it at a profit. The same is true of investments, investment properties. But realistically, the Australian housing market has been so hot for so long that it has been a somewhat shorter term investment, meaning you haven't had to wait 15, 20 years with a property in order to have made money. What I find fascinating is that even within Labor, they are disagreeing with Jim Chalmers. So Chalmers is saying it's long term, and then you've got this own his own frontbencher, Matt Thistlethwaite, who was basically saying

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: there is no doubt that Labour's tax changes have contributed. To prices falling. Interestingly, I don't know why Labour would shy away from that. It it it its budget

Annie Pullar: No. Well I think

Jodi Lee: was so controversial and made so many sweeping changes. Like sure why doesn't it just own it and say, Yes, we did that. We took some of the heat out of the housing market. Like claim it as an owned win.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, or also start reciting some actual facts because we know that house prices have climbed more than 400% since 1999. So I feel like it's the narrative that they're spinning that's making people more frustrated. I mean, I don't agree with Jim Chalmers on a lot of things. I I sort of understand what he is saying there, but the other side of this is that there's a parliamentary inquiry currently playing out or expected to play out into whether younger Australians are actually getting a fair shot at the house. Housing market. He's also coming out and blaming social media, apparently feeding rubbish I think that's a pretty extraordinary sort of pitch to the country after delivering such significant changes that are gonna affect, you know, property owners and how people build wealth. Like I think at some point you're just gonna have to wear what's happening around you.

Jodi Lee: I don't know. I'm pretty unconvinced about Labour's budget changes to be honest. I don't think reining in the haves is the way to assist or prop up the have nots. It really comes down to supply and demand, and you see that playing out in various markets. Places like Melbourne that are easily expanded and have plenty of housing stock do not have the heat in the property market the way cities like Sydney do, where it's geographically constricted by water. and you know it's just more difficult to plonk more homes in certain suburbs. So for me, the only real solution is to get cracking with development and It's a numbers game, but obviously only time will tell. but with that, should we move to our third story of the week? Obviously it's hey

Annie Pullar: Yes, please. I've been so looking forward to getting into this one.

Jodi Lee: Swanny is fascinating. On the surface, probably didn't feel like a covered story, but the more I read into it, the more I realised it was a little bit fashion, a lot cancel culture. for those who aren't aware, the Met Gala is fashion's night of nights. And designer John Galliano was set to take a starring role in next year's Met Gala celebration. So it had recently been revealed that Galeano was due to be the focus of a Costume Institute exhibition tied to the gala. So it would be a massive Galeano exhibition tied to the Met Gala ball. it really is one of the biggest honors that anyone in fashion could ever be bestowed with. And it would make Galeano only the third living designer to have a solo show at the Costume Institute. But this week, John Galliano withdrew from his own exhibition.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, a very interesting pick when you consider how controversial John Galliano's past has been, because this really didn't come out of nowhere. There has been widespread condemnation and backlash right across the world over this planned exhibition because John Galliano has a very deep-seated, very wide history of making anti Semitic and anti Asian remarks. Hate speech. in 2011 he was fired from Dior, that was very popular. At the time, and he was prosecuted for two instances of racial vilification. So, in that first instance, a French couple actually said that he repeatedly insulted them with slurs targeting their Jewish and Asian heritage. Another woman said he made similar insults to her in a bar. I think it was actually the same bar just a year later. And the final straw was when the son, a big tabloid in the UK, actually published a video of John Galliano. pretty much declaring his love for Hitler. I mean

Jodi Lee: It's actually

Annie Pullar: it it it that was what how many years ago?

Jodi Lee: Beyond comprehension.

Annie Pullar: Yeah, like that's over a decade ago and you still watch that and go, how can words like that come out of someone's mouth so naturally as well?

Jodi Lee: Yeah. So I think it's worth noting that he only copped a fine from a judge. he was never awarded any jail time as a result of that conviction. The court accepted that he'd apologize to the people who were involved during the trial, but the judge's words were blunt, saying that he'd shown sufficient awareness of his act despite his addiction. Galeanos has always maintained that he actually doesn't remember saying any of those things, blaming a breakdown brought on by the pressures of his work in the fashion industry, an addiction to alcohol and prescription drugs. So that doesn't necessarily sound like someone who's taken accountability to me.

Annie Pullar: No, I mean he also appeared on media a couple of years after that Hitler video surface saying that he struggled to come to terms with the fact that he was gay, that he was an immigrant in the UK, that he was taunted at school, and he sort of blamed this hate speech on his own bullying sort of experiences, which I don't really see how the two correlate, but anyway, that's sort of the defense that he's levelled to the public. He's also, I think, spent significant time in rehab, He spent two years personally meeting with several Jewish leaders to ask for forgiveness, including Abraham Foxman, who was the then head of the Anti-Defamation League, who said that by 2013 he believed that the apologies were genuine, that they were sincere and he meant what he was saying. Anna Wintor, meanwhile, seems to have, or at least be a fierce defense. Of John Galliano. She has quietly sort of been rebuilding his career, giving him a leg up. She actually arranged for him to have a stint at Oscar de la Renta in 2013 and then helped him land the top job at Mason Margella in 2014. So clearly they have a strong bond and she's not offended by any of his comments.

Jodi Lee: Yeah, and I think you have to remember who Anna Wintour is and the role she plays at the Costume Institute to understand why the decision to honor John Galeano next year was made and why it was such an a misstep and an error in judgment. it really did blow up quite spectacularly. Ellie Wiesel, who's one of the most famous Holocaust survivors, obviously isn't alive anymore, but his son. And New York City Council speaker Julie Menon were among the very prominent voices who spoke out against the Galeano exhibition. The head of a major Jewish philanthropic network in New York said this is just tone-deaf and and not the right time at all. considering that anti-Semitism has risen so sharply, not only in the US, certainly here in Australia, but everywhere around the world, it just sends the wrong message. And I think that that is a really astute comment. It also didn't help, and this is just like, the most home deaf thing ever. I didn't help that the opening date of this Galeano exhibition for twenty twenty seven is the same day as Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Annie Pullar: I mean, read the room. Like, I think we've used the word tone def repeatedly here, but it sort of goes beyond tone deaf in my opinion. yes, John Galliano is clearly an esteemed designer. Yes, he is a creative genius, but there are also a lot of other creative geniuses that exist in the fashion industry. There were so many people that could have been picked. Why him? Like I that's that's the question I keep coming back to. He apparently posted on Instagram, Earlier in the week, that after much reflection, he decided it was, best that the exhibition didn't go ahead. So he's acknowledged that he accepts the decision here, saying that he didn't want the debate around him to distract from the costume institute's work itself. But is this just him saving face publicly? Like, I don't know, at least when I look at interviews of him and how he responds to the comments that he's made. I know it was, I know it happened a long time ago, but it it to me there's never been a real justification. as t as to why he made those comments and as to why he repeatedly made those comments. Not once, but twice. Like Yeah.

Jodi Lee: Well, allegedly three times, because it was two verbal assaults on two different groups of people and then the Hitler video. I'm gonna be honest, I don't think there's ever a justification to racially vilify someone and

Annie Pullar: No.

Jodi Lee: then to pledge allegiance to Hitler. I don't think there's ever a justification. What I

Annie Pullar: Mm.

Jodi Lee: find interesting is the wording of the withdrawal. So he said on social media that he felt like he decided not to proceed. But then Anna Wintor's statement called him very Courageous. And it's worth noting that her wording is that Galeano asked to postpone the show, which to me sort of leaves the door ajar for it perhaps returning at a more opportune time. And here for me is the crux. This is really a story about cancel culture dressed in fashionable clothing. At what point does a discretion like this become How the world sees you forevermore moving forward? Or is there ever a possibility of someone like this being redeemed?

Annie Pullar: I mean, redemption is is hard in an instance like this because for me there kind of is no turning back when we hear comments like that made from a public figure don't really think there is a way back from that. Obviously, he's, you know, as I mentioned, he he had incredibly famous work under his Dior era in the 90s and the 2000s. He was incredibly influenced. Influential during that period, but it doesn't mean we have to respect him,

Jodi Lee: Know, I don't know if I'm just playing devil's advocate, but maybe the question is, what does it take to be redeemed? And for

Annie Pullar: Mm it

Jodi Lee: me, I think it's remorse. It's genuine remorse, not remorse for the court's sake. You know, if you actually read through it, the people at the center of the this racial vilification say that Galli so they say that Galeano never personally apologized to them. So he's obviously made all these public efforts to redeem himself. He's met with rabbis and head of Jewish organizations, and he says he's he's tried very publicly to be seen to be someone atoning for his sins. But does he really feel bad? I would argue no. If he's using defenses that he was struggling with his o with his own sexuality and he'd been bullied as a child and he was dealing with addiction, like they're excuses. And somebody who has done the wrong thing and genuinely feels bad about it takes accountability.

Annie Pullar: I also just think on the eve of a Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Jodi Lee: yeah.

Annie Pullar: I mean, the whole thing was going to be a hotbed from the very start. And if he was genuinely remorseful, why didn't he have the foresight to go, I'm probably not in the right position to take on this exhibition? Like, I why why didn't he have his own judgment to go, you know what, Considering what I've said, considering how much hurt I've caused within Jewish communities, Asian communities, this is probably not the best role for me to take right now.

Jodi Lee: It's also just not the time in the world. Like Holocaust Remembrance Day aside, you know, as you rightly mentioned, he racially vilified Jews and Asians. So it's not just one group that we're talking about. The world has never been more divided. We've never been more polarized. There's never been more hate, I would argue. Why not choose somebody that could unite us? Why not choose a designer of why

Annie Pullar: Yeah.

Jodi Lee: not choose a designer of colour? Or a female designer, or somebody that has overcome, you know, obstacles or adversity in order to achieve what they have. This is Anna Wintour siding with a friend who she's been friends with for decades and ignoring his his complete disregard for minority groups, his disgusting vilification of Jews and Asians, and saying, you know what, credit where credit's due, let's give him an exhibition. It's like, what is the friend version of nepotism? That's what it is.

Annie Pullar: mean this is, you know, the boss in the company that you work for promoting the the colleagues. Jobs for the boys. This

Jodi Lee: Jobs for the boys. It's jobs for the boys.

Annie Pullar: is jobs for the boys, except Anna Winter is a female. Come on, like get around the girls. But

Jodi Lee: And Galeano is a gay man. yeah, dis it's so disgusting. And it puts me really I'm really off the Met Gala.

Annie Pullar: And it's hard because I love watching the Met Gala, as we all do, but it makes you go, well, should I boycott it? Like, should I watch it? If they're making decisions like this, then why are we gonna continually support an organization? But anyway,

Jodi Lee: Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

Annie Pullar: we've posed a lot of big questions on this episode, so we hope we've left some food for thought there. Thank you again for joining us on this week's episode of COVID, and we hope to see you next week.