Dr. Brian Shrum: so it's been a while since we've talked. You got just Hugo Langton: Yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: lambasted, ridiculed the last time we would have talked, which was about half spaces, which I'm glad you ended up triggering me with that, because Hugo Langton: Yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: that's still something that we talk about, isn't it? Hugo Langton: Yeah, I mean, I think it's more about language, isn't it, that coaches use. There's always something, you know, people try to reinvent the wheel and words and explanations. Like I think I wrote on Twitter, so I'm going probably back like eight years or so, is the half space the part of the player's brain that doesn't understand what the coach is saying? Okay, and you know, it had a quite an interesting response mostly from coaches that are lot younger than me at the time you know yeah telling me i didn't know what i was talking about that i was a dinosaur and stuff but they they missed the message totally missed the message which was about how we speak to players you know because i always find that you know we i can sit in the staff room with with other coaches at whatever club i'm working at and we can spend ages describing and explaining things to each other. But then it's having the ability to go and then take that to the players and explain it in a way that's quite basic for them to understand and follow because players will have, your squad will have different levels of intelligence. So you've got to make sure that you can explain everything in such a way that there's no misunderstanding. And we've often said in Starfrooms, a bit in the past, yeah, this is great, we'll talk in like this, but the players are gonna understand it. And that was really looking back on that tweet about the half space, that's what that was about, because what's a half space? Dr. Brian Shrum: What have you come to know what a half space is? Hugo Langton: Again, it's not, I mean, I know what it is, you know, obviously, but it's not a term that I'd use. And I certainly wouldn't use it to my players. Because it has no relevance, I think, in the way that certainly that I coach and the people that I've worked with have coached. And the last thing you want is to come out with fancy words and stuff because players, players aren't, it's funny, I've just called a lot of players stupid, but they're actually not stupid because they look at each other, don't they? They look at each other what's this guy talking about? And that's what you have to avoid. It needs to be very clear, very straight to the point, very easy to understand what you're saying. But the thing is, I think so many coaches, speak too much almost. It's like coaching has to be like, I have to speak all the time. Whether I'm, you know, I have to cheerlead, have to commentate, I have to whatever. The best thing to do most of the time is just to shut up, you know, and only speak really when you've got something useful to say to the players because I think I've always said it coaching people say you know about my coaching, well my job is I'm there to help. I'm there to help the players. That's why I do it. Sure, I help the staff as well, you know, but I'm there to, ultimately I'm there to help the players. I'm there to help them try to win the next game of football. You know, I'm not talking lower down kids football where, sure, the purpose of the game is of course is to win, but the outcome isn't the be all and end all in youth football. Whereas in senior and professional football, it is. So my job is to help the players to win the very next game of football. That's how I look at coaching. Dr. Brian Shrum: It's funny I I reached out because I know you've evolved over the years and I have evolved I think over the years and to improve our abilities to help players. I don't know if this half space term though is evolved. It sounds like it's still very prevalent in the game today. As a matter of fact, I just wanna throw this at you. There's diagrams of it on Schematics and podcasts and webinars where you see what supposedly is made famous by Pep Guadiola, the the the the vertical channel fields, right? And I know I've Hugo Langton: Mm-hmm. Dr. Brian Shrum: even I've even demonstrated this myself. And the more we think about it though, if it's a if it's a position on the field, if it's an actual space on the field that's right, you diagram it vertically. Doesn't it change? It doesn't it doesn't seem to hold weight though if the opponent Hugo Langton: No. Dr. Brian Shrum: if the opponent isn't in it or around it. What do you think? Hugo Langton: 1 million percent. I went to a game a couple of years ago. It was an upcoming opponent and I went to watch them. And I heard the coach of this team, he shouted at a player. As a player that I know, he was a centre forward, know, he's a big guy, would be described, you know, by most coaches as a target man, all right? And he shouted at him, he called him by his name. and he shouted at him, get in your effing corridor. Okay. And the player who I noticed, I said I know him, was looking around going, what the hell is he talking about? And like he shaking his head and you know, that then made the coach a bit angrier. And I thought it was quite interesting to watch because that takes us back to the whole half space thing. It's the same thing, what was the corridor? I don't remember seeing any corridors on a football pitch, but you know. Big people watching this or listening to this will again, they'd probably go, you know, call me a dinosaur again, but the more basic that we can make football, it's a pitch, right? It's a pitch, got two goals, two penalty areas, it's got a halfway line and you know, it's lined out for the size of it. We all know what offside is and what offside is and well, we think we do. Obviously the rules keep changing every year to make it even more complicated, but obviously that's like. irrelevant. So I don't understand why we have to introduce corridors and spaces but it sounds it sounds nice doesn't it and it sounds like I'm perhaps more intelligent than I am. I want to sound like I really know what I'm talking about but you don't need fancy words and terms for me. Players know that whether you do or you don't know what you're talking about by the way that you speak to them about you know whether it be at half time or whatever, know, in team meetings or if you're analyzing something or you're talking about the next opponent or how you behave on the training pitch, they know, they know. If you're capable of, you know, coming across as somebody who's knowledgeable, but the use of fancy words, I think it's possibly used a lot to try and impress other coaches and players maybe, you know, so I find it quite interesting. Maybe I just always... believed in the more simple that you can keep things the better. It doesn't mean it's any less effective. Dr. Brian Shrum: Think I think where this goes from if we can make it simplified, tell me where I'm not making it simplified. But if a player positions in a way that two defenders have to make a decision between who's gonna defend that player, right? So if Hugo Langton: Mm-hmm. Dr. Brian Shrum: I'm standing in a position on the field anywhere, and you and your teammate have to start to communicate together to figure out which one of you is gonna want to be responsible for me, that's a That's a probably a a a very interesting position I'm taking up because now I could cause some confusion between you two. Hugo Langton: course. Dr. Brian Shrum: I think that's what I think that's what the half space was supposed to mean. But it's funny because that that space, if if I'm standing in it, right? If I just stand in what you see on these schematics all over the internet, but the back four will use that context. Is all shifted to one side and I'm standing over there all by myself. Am I am I in a half space? Like is that is that positioning? Hugo Langton: Well, yeah, mean, back in, obviously before I was born, there used to be a position of football that rather than saying, you like you have a right winger, you'd have somebody that was called an inside right. So this Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm-hmm. Hugo Langton: was a guy that wouldn't be out really, really wide. He'd be inside. Hence the term, you know, inside right or inside left, whatever it might be. And I'm talking about football in the 50s and 60s here in the last century. So it's not necessarily a new term, but then obviously, know, when I was born in the 70s and I went as a youth player and stuff like that, I never ever heard the term inside right, inside left. It became, I guess, outdated. And then it reappeared again because of a space. Well, how can you could even go one step further, right? If there's a space, there's a space, right? So how can you then have it? Because it's still a space. If you wanted to argue it that way, it's still a space. A lot of people use the word pocket, certainly here in England, a pocket of space. And they'll use that when talking about more often than not number tens, the guys who play behind frontline strikers, those little areas there, they call them, can you find him in the pocket? Okay, again, it's a very non-contextual description, but it's something, again, that's been accepted over time because everyone understands what it means. You know, he drops into the pocket. I'm sure you've heard it. Yeah, but it's not very... The problem with a lot of football terminology is that a lot of it is very, for me, it's not very contextual. you know, so by describing a pocket, your explanation of it might be different to mine. Same with a half space, a corridor. whatever you want to use, you know. But it's the same with the words like confidence and sharp and all those sort of words. mean, what do they mean exactly? So if you can be a little bit more specific with exactly what you mean, then you'll probably find more people will understand what you're saying. That's how I... Dr. Brian Shrum: Funny No, it's funny you bring that up because I had just just recently was sent the words that are describing player actions in a curriculum, right, here in the US. And both dribble and drive are part of Hugo Langton: Yeah, I hear drive a lot, drive into a space and you think, well, he's not, if driving, you're driving a car. That's just what I think, you Dr. Brian Shrum: I think. I was at I was wondering what the difference is. Am I dribbling or Hugo Langton: I think my interpretation of that would be dribbling is that you're having a lot of touches with the ball as you're probably not at top speed, but you touch, touch, touch, touch, if you're driving, it's the bigger touches because you're trying to progress the ball yourself quicker over. So for example, I think the Bigger the space would lend itself more to what people would refer to as driving, with less space, there'd be more touches at a slower speed. That's how I would look at that, know? But again, dribbling, driving, whatever you want to call it, very non-contextual, you know, is it the right thing to do? Because... A friend of mine who I've worked with a lot over the years is always sister player. Nothing travels faster on a football pitch apart from your voice than the ball. Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm, yeah, absolutely. Hugo Langton: So your intention as an individual to contribute to what your team is trying to achieve, just because a big space is opened up doesn't mean that you've got to exploit that space yourself when it might be better to pass the ball. because Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah. Hugo Langton: if you're dribbling and it's not at a high speed and that gives opposition players an opportunity to get back behind the ball perhaps. Dr. Brian Shrum: It's funny, I don't know that I thought you did that very eloquently to describe the difference between the two. I struggled to figure it out. I just d I curr I currently just think of dribbling fast and slow. Right. So Hugo Langton: That's correct. What you've said is the correct way to describe it, but we've brought in examples of non-contextual words, but everybody seems to kind of think they understand them, but the explanation that I gave, somebody else might describe it differently to me. So this is where your problem with language definitions. I think is a big problem in football because particularly if you're a player that goes from team to team to team over a space of two or three seasons, the same language might be being used but with a different meaning which then would then encourage miscommunication. Because I'm used to someone says to me driving with the ball, you know, that might just mean me dribbling slowly, you know, touch, touch, touch, touch, touch, but to the other coach, it might mean something else. And then there's This is where gray areas come in, you know? So the more, kind of almost brought it around in a circle now, I the more, you described it, in the best way possible. Dribbling fast, dribbling slow. That's probably the best way. Dr. Brian Shrum: It's a it's funny that Yeah, and it's funny that we're having that discussion because most of the time I've ever heard drive is been because the coach yells it. Right? Because the player doesn't Hugo Langton: But yeah, of course, yeah, of course, you know, and I find coaches' behaviour during games very interesting because they feel that they have to commentate, they think that they can massively influence the outcome of a game, but they're also encouraging players to make a decision, perhaps, that they see, but the player's the player on the pitch. and he has completely different views and potential options and the coach is encouraging him to do one thing but the better option might be another thing because you're stood on the sideline and you're not on the pitch. But you know I find a lot of the way that people behave very very interesting because I get I don't know me well I totally understand that you know I've worked with head coaches and managers where their names above the door, it's their show as it were, they're in charge, it's their neck on the line. And when it comes to match day, and they're not very measured, know, they're very, become very stressed very easily, very quickly, which then becomes harder, I think, to get clear messages across to the players. don't, you know, we've all played football, the last thing you need is somebody continually commentating at you. You know, and a lot of players that I've seen over the years, struggle with it, some don't, some like it, you know, because maybe they're a bit younger and they need a little bit more help from the side. I mean, and I've worked with teams where sometimes you have to work quite hard from the side to help them. But what I mean by that is that you're giving them more useful information rather than telling them to drive, you know, and that. Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah. Well and again Yep. Hugo Langton: And I always find it quite interesting that it's quite easy to make opposition coaches and managers even more stressed. It's very easy to, you know, mess with their, if you want to, you know, to disrupt their thinking because a lot of the time, for example, when a player, if a player gets sent off or the penalty is given against the team, the behavior or the outcome from the opposition or whoever it is, the coaches generally tends to be one of, that's really unfair. They feel a sense of injustice. That's when their team needs them to be calm and be able to help them solve potential problems because you're going to go one nil down maybe or you're going to be playing with one less player. A lot of these guys in there for the next four, five, six minutes are still shouting at the referee. and you're thinking to yourself, your players need your help here. You've got one less player and you're three nil down with 20 minutes to go. What are you gonna do? And sometimes, you can help it along a little bit by disrupting them a bit by saying things to them like, yeah, that was a bit harsh, that red card. So again, you're just taking them away from finding potential solutions. But I'm not saying that that's, I'm not encouraging people to do that, but I may have been known to do that from time to time in the past. Dr. Brian Shrum: yeah, absolutely. It's funny watching it unfold, isn't it? Hugo Langton: course. Dr. Brian Shrum: it and players players can do that. I mean players I mean young players they don't know what they don't know. Hugo Langton: So there's a guy that you might know him. He's called Spencer Fern. He did some scouting for me a few years ago on opposition. So he'd go to watch a team and he would provide the details about the team, they're good at, what they're not and stuff. And he always included a section in it about the amygdala, the part of the brain that controls whether your emotions. he would often identify players or staff that are very vulnerable to what he called an amygdala hijack. Okay. So I knew like each game we were going into that Spencer had reported on which players I could potentially have a little bit of fun with if I needed to. And sometimes with the players, mean, there was, I can give you one example. There was one player. It was just after half time and there was an injury, something like that. A physio had gone on the pitch to treat a player and this player who had been highlighted as you can potentially, know, hijackers and mick to that was looking at me, staring at me. All right. And I looked at him and I said, I've got a question for you. He went, what is it? went, if you played like, there's a league called League One, right? said, hi, so it's two below the Premier League. I said, have you played in League One? He went, yeah, went, how'd you manage that? And he went, you what? I said, I can't believe that. said, did you win a competition? Right? And he went, he turned, you know, he's like, who the hell are you? I'm like, well, don't worry about who I am. We're talking about you. And I completely managed to wreck his thinking, his brain, right? And he had no impact on the game, the rest of the game. And at the end of it, he actually came over laughing to me, hugged me and said, you got me there. Dr. Brian Shrum: That's brilliant. I mean, you saw it a lot in the World Cup even. At the top level, some of these managers just losing it. Hugo Langton: Well, you look at someone like Mikel Arteta, mean, the guy's, don't get me wrong, he's clearly very good at what he does because he's champions of England and they were runners up in the Champions League. He clearly is a very good coach, manager, but he's crazy. He runs around like a lunatic. I've seen loads of things lately where he's practically on the pitch. outside of his technical area. But the problem with that is that a lot of people now will go well that's acceptable. At the moment they start doing that and the referee comes over they've got an argument going well hang on a minute Mikael Arteta does it so I'm going to do it. Right and then how do you deal with that as a referee? you know we're probably going off track a little bit here but yeah Arteta is setting a really really bad example. for so many coaches throughout the game around the world because nobody ever says to Arteta, get back in your technical area. He's practically running up and down the line and he's almost chasing wingers and opposition players and I'm waiting for him to tackle somebody. But I'm sure people call this passion. Dr. Brian Shrum: for no question. Hugo Langton: Yeah, he's passionate. Yeah. Just because you're... know, behaving like that doesn't make you any more passionate than somebody who's calm. Dr. Brian Shrum: The one thing I would only you know you and I aren't on the touchline to find out if this is going on or not, but sometimes if you look at the staff behind them, maybe they're the ones charged with making sure that they stay more rational and focused than Arteta where he can run up and down the sidelines and do all that and then when someone recognizes something, but you know, in youth soccer we don't we we don't have that ability. You don't have five or six staff members behind you doing certain things. Hugo Langton: No, and I think with lot of youth football, lot of the coaches are volunteers. Certainly here in England, they're volunteers, they're parents, and their behaviour is reflective of what they watch on the television. And that's just a lack of education. But they only know what they know, right? And because a lot of them are volunteers and they're parents, well, they're not going to necessarily put themselves through courses and coaching badges and... invest that way they're kind of almost doing everybody a favor you know and I sometimes you know in the past where I live you know I've walked my dog around on a Sunday morning just out of interest around all the football pitches where all the youth teams locally are playing and it's it's so fascinating the way that these coaches these people talk to the kids you know and then you've got all the other parents on the sideline you know trying to all want to have their say they all you know are aggressive a lot of them are very aggressive particularly towards the referees opposition players and we're talking kids here and it's just like and you can sometimes see the kids thinking just just shut up we're just playing i want to play football but you know we're trying to win we're trying to do our best because that's you know they understand that's what the game is about you know but yeah the parents are like a huge problem here in england i don't know what it's like in the states but Dr. Brian Shrum: Still the same, still the same. And and and no fault to those people that are coming out, right? That they're volunteers and they they just don't know what they d they don't know. It's no fault Hugo Langton: Yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: of their own because they just haven't been given that opportunity to evolve, right? So i it Hugo Langton: That's correct, yeah. they haven't, a lot of these youth grassroots football clubs don't necessarily have the funds to say, I'm going to pay for you to go on this course or do this coaching badge and that because they're becoming more and more expensive. And it puts people off even just to do the most basic license, C license, I think it's a few thousand pounds, you know? And Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah. Yeah. Hugo Langton: people think, well, that's a few thousand pounds I can put towards my family holiday. It's just completely understandable, but they've become so expensive and hard to get on and people can't be bothered, I don't think. Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah, it's very it's it is difficult and very time consuming. Here in the US we've changed Hugo Langton: Yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: considerably over the years. I mean, hell, I did my A license in two thousand seven. and it's changed. Hugo Langton: Yeah, I did mine around the same time, yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah, it's about it's it's it's almost I think it's a year now process for them. Hugo Langton: Well, I was talking to somebody not long ago. So I did my A license, yeah, 2007, 2008, something like that. And you were assessed on coaching 11 v 11. You were told, right, you were given a topic, right? This is what we want to see you coach in an 11 v 11 environment. And what would happen is in your final assessment, they would send a coach educator to your club. where you would be coaching 11 v 11, your team. Okay, so they come into your environment. And my understanding now is, that on the A license, I could be wrong, but my understanding was there's less and less coaching. It's more theory, more written, making, it's more about perhaps social aspects of football as well. You know, what I mean by that. The FA here in England, they've got this ridiculous four corner model, which has been falsified by a mutual acquaintance and friend of ours time and time again, but they still persevere with it. And it's all about, you know, is a pitch okay for you guys? Is it big enough? Is it small enough? What can we do to change it? Are you okay? You know, rather than teaching, having the ability to teach your players. particularly younger players, football. Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm-hmm. Hugo Langton: But listen, could be wrong, but this is the impression I got from a conversation I with somebody recently. They didn't have to do a lot of coaching. It's a lot of written stuff. Dr. Brian Shrum: And it's funny because they are bringing in more aspects. I think I just saw something that they brought in a personal development coach at one of the courses here in the US. Right. So someone who specializes in leadership training, they brought them in now to work with the staff. So you're you're getting like all of these little pieces Hugo Langton: Yeah, well, I mean, it depends really. It's like anything. I was at a football club for a little while and there was a young lady there who came under the umbrella of psychologist, team psychologist. I found, I actually, I found her really interesting. she was there to help the players, you if they had problems or needed some help with whatever it might be, right? But I found her fascinating. She was brilliant for me because I used her differently. I used to get her to monitor how I behaved, you know, on the training pitch, on match days, you know, when I spoke to the team or how I was in the dugout, you know, how I was speaking to players during the game if I needed to speak to them. And she gave me so much great feedback, you know. So it's like anything. It depends how you use these people. And she was quite, she would tell you, and she's told me this, she's quite surprised that I kind of embraced her and her role in the club because it's a very taboo thing sometimes that players don't want to be seen to be, I've had to sit with the psychologist, and the players are saying, what's his, has he got problems? So it can be perceived as weakness, and it's the same with staff members. So I thought, well, do you know what? I'm going to use her. I'm gonna use her in a very specific way. And I thought she was fantastic. I, because she, I told her exactly what I wanted from her and she was happy to do it. That I, you know, if it was up to me, I'd hire her everywhere I went just to monitor how I am and feed back to me. Dr. Brian Shrum: It's funny you say that. How important do you think that is in an evolution of a coach? Having someone like a coach for the coach? Hugo Langton: Well, everybody's different, right? And a lot of people, they don't want to hear things that they may not wanna hear. Me, I like feedback. I've learned to like feedback. Good, bad, I'm more interested in the bad stuff or stuff I can get better at because I've never been the kind of guy that needs a pat on the back, right? I'd rather somebody said, hey, you said this. and it had that effect and I don't think it was a good thing. And then that gives me something to think, okay, well, what could I have said different? What could I, et cetera, et cetera. So I was encouraging her to show me a mirror as much as she could. But a lot of the time people are uncomfortable with that. I think the difference is, and you've been on a similar educational pathway to me over time with the football. Coach Evolution and Raymond Vahayan. And one thing that he's certainly taught me and I'd imagine you and loads of other guys that we know is that it's the ability to accept feedback, reflect, be honest with yourselves, you know, and encourage not necessarily criticism, but feedback. Because how can you... We talk about personal development and how can you develop as a person if you're not open to feedback? I met a guy not long ago who wanted to offer me a job as his assistant manager and one of the things I said to him, I said, do you like feedback? He what do you mean? I said, well, do you like, does it help you? know, cause I was trying to figure out whether I could work with this guy or not. And he said to me, we know, I don't want to be overloaded with that. I don't mind it from time to time. And that was a big X in the box for me, you know, because I'm thinking, well, how can you work with somebody or how can you help somebody who doesn't want to be helped to improve? And I've worked with another guy for a long period of time, for maybe on and off for 10 years, who became the complete opposite. You know, he was fine. He eventually became to to really like the fact that I would question him. You shouldn't have said that. Mate, why did you say this to that player? Think about this, think about that. it's... And often it was private. I wouldn't do it in front of the rest of the staff most of the time. Because we spent a lot of time in a car together. But at the same time, he'd do the same back to me. So we created a relationship over a long period of time where we were able to critique each other. And nobody cried. We both understood that we're trying to... you know, help each other and as a result help the team, you know, and, but that took a little bit of time to initially develop, but once it started to develop, it accelerated very, very quickly, you know, and this is, I've always enjoyed working with this particular head coach manager. Okay. don't get me wrong. I mean, he might, he'll probably see this and he won't mind saying, yeah, listen, he can be a little bit crazy at times, but that's probably where I'm helpful because I'm not, you know, and I, I think I have the ability. when things are a little bit chaotic to be the calm guy in the storm and be able to speak to him during a game and go, you need to think about this. I think it's something to answer your question that most people don't think about. They probably don't want to embrace. Most people don't like to feel uncomfortable or to feel they're being criticized as human nature, But if you can understand the power of it, then I think you could have a huge... impact on your evolution as a coach. Dr. Brian Shrum: Absolutely. I was gonna I was thinking about this from the coach player perspective. Most coaches consistently put their players in an environment where they have to be criticized. Right. So training, right? You you have training every day or every time you do train. The players are in an environment where they're gonna be criticized. But yet the coach gets to a point, it seems most coaches, not all, Hugo Langton: Yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: get to a point where that environment for them ends. Hugo Langton: Look, I've been very lucky. Certainly in recent years at two different football clubs, I've worked at a football club where the changing room has run. It's been so good where the senior players completely understand the environment. when they're like that, they kind of self-police everybody themselves. It makes your job as a coach so much easier. that they kind of sift through a lot of the problems that might occur or before they occur by pulling players back into line or explaining to them what's expected of them. And that's way more powerful than a coach or the head coach having to do that because it's coming from their teammates. I Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm-hmm. Hugo Langton: need you to not do this, I need you to do that. It's really, really powerful. And as I said, I've been really lucky that we've built... certainly two football clubs where you could say we were fairly successful by having this sort of change of him. It's the collective intention. If you what I mean, know, it's the whole, if everybody's contributing to what you're trying to do, you know, like there's a phase, isn't there? Like if everyone's rowing in the same direction. But that's... so important, not just in your changing room, but as a club in a whole. So every club that I've been at has been done well with one stuff or whatever. Everybody, doesn't matter whether you're a player, staff, the chef, ticket office, commercial, social media, medical people, whatever. If everyone is continuously contributing towards the same thing, then you become successful. All right? That's same within any kind of level of business, I suppose. But to have that kind of environment where people take responsibility for themselves and don't mind keeping other people on the highway as it were, you've got a really good chance of doing something and being successful. Dr. Brian Shrum: So when we think of and part of this conversation today was talking about the evolution of a coach. So Hugo Langton: Mm-hmm. Dr. Brian Shrum: what do you think gets in the way? I mean, we talked about criticism, but Hugo Langton: Bye bye. Dr. Brian Shrum: for for a coach to have a coach, in other words, you have you have a mentor that you've mentioned, Raymond. Raymond has been a mentor of mine for a long time as well. We've been on that path to where we're willing to do that. It doesn't seem like many are on that path. Hugo Langton: Well, I also find that I've got two or three other guys who are, I mentioned one of them in Spencer Fern, who have been in a similar kind of educational pathway as you and I, that I encourage them to speak very frankly with me. So I can describe and explain something or share something with them, knowing that they're gonna give me the best feedback that they can. It's not personal. You know, it's objective, right? But this has come through education though. one of the things I've noticed over the years working in professional football as well is so many people regard education, personal development as a bugbear, as a pain in their ass, right? Because it's time consuming, you know? you know, it's you get to an end of the season. Sure, everybody's tired. It's been a long season and people have to freshen up their brains and freshen themselves up and stuff, you know, but I very rarely see many people go, right, I'm going to go and learn something new. I've got two months off, for example, six to eight weeks off before I'm due back on the training ground again to the start of pre-season. What can I learn? I don't see it. very often people have to go and do what you know CPD to keep their badges up to date but that's just a box ticking exercise and most people that listen that I'm being quite general here and I'm not talking about everybody that I know or coaches that I've met or what I see but you know in general you get the feeling that it's just a box ticking exercise I'm gonna go to this day boring but I'm gonna go there and just so I my my license is renewed for another year, all right? And a lot of that then falls on, okay, well, why is it boring? That's the next question, isn't it? So it's what's being put on boring. Well, a lot of it's very subjective from what I've seen in this country. So I can talk about my own personal pathway. So I did CPD courses before here in England where... I found that the educators basically wanted to be popular, to be everybody's friend. It was very, very subjective. So if you don't agree with me as the educator, what I'm saying, then I'm not interested in you. And then if you try to make suggestions, they shoot you down. And then when I found Football Coach Evolution, which was the complete opposite, where I had an educator and people around me that weren't afraid to kick my ass. That was the best thing that I ever found, you know? And I made a decision, I'm Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah. Hugo Langton: not gonna spend any of my own money ever on educating myself through these people. I'm only gonna go here, where I know I'm gonna get my ass kicked frequently, you know? And I have done over the years. And you almost seek it, well, you do seek it, don't you? Because that's the only way you're gonna get better. But I think... A lot of coaches that I've worked with over the last 20 years, they're still doing the same drills and exercises at this club as they did at that club 10 years ago. And it doesn't bear a lot of relevance to what your team needs at that time. So they think something that they did 10 years ago is the right solution for now, with a completely different set of players and stuff. You get too many other coaches as well who cut and paste, they copy, they go on a club visit. yeah, know, I'm going to a club visit to West Ham. I went to West Ham today and I watched their training and this was really good. And I'm going to take that back. I'm to do that with my, you know, under 11 rail Pingu team. You know, I'm a really clever guy, you know, and it doesn't work like that, you know? And then Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm-hmm. Hugo Langton: they... They become angry, become frustrated. it's just, yeah, the whole thing can become a mess. But I've Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah. Hugo Langton: only learnt this because I've found something that was what I was looking for, that was completely different to anything else that I'd experienced before. And that was objective education where people are not afraid to kick my ass. Dr. Brian Shrum: What where did where's the light bulb moment? Right? Like over your journey. You had Hugo Langton: The day of my, I said this to you off air earlier, right? The biggest day of my coaching life was my friend Andy Driscoll made me go on a course in Cambridge, was late 2015 I think it was. And I wasn't that fussed about it, know? But he made me go and I walked into a room and it was Raymond Verheyen, it was a one day course. I can't remember what the topic was, I've so many notes downstairs and books and there's real half, right? I remember I walked in there, I'd recently won a league with a team and I'm like, you know, I'm a top coach, you know, I've just won the league, know, whey, right? And I remember I strutted into this auditorium in a city called Cambridge, sat down and as I started to listen to the day unfold, I started thinking to myself, my God, you're a really, really bad coach. like you're really shit. And yeah, I got back in my car, I had a two hour drive home and my brain was like, well, okay, someone's just shown you how bad you are, but what are you gonna do about it? You know, cause it's very easy then to go, yeah, yeah, whatever, you know, what does he know? But no, was probably the biggest moment in my coaching. career and so yeah from that day onwards so I realized that I was pretty incompetent not very good but I wanted to do something about it so how can I become better because I love being a football coach I love it it's the best from its best job in the world you know and you know to be able to get out of bed in the morning every day and go right I'm gonna go and coach this team and I can't wait to get there mean how lucky are people like me who have these jobs, I mean it's the best job ever and most people tell you the same right, apart from when they're losing a lot it can become a bit more stressful but okay Dr. Brian Shrum: Ha ha. Hugo Langton: so what am I going to do about it and that's where I chose I thought you know what all the other courses that I've done generally are useless I'm going to go and invest more money in this guy here because in what he did to me in one day and you know it was incredible. Dr. Brian Shrum: Well, it's funny you say that because the most interesting way that we go nowadays seems to be on the social media pathway or jump online or ask AI. I mean that's a big one now, asking AI. And we could actually head further down the path we don't want to go as a human being, as opposed to the journey you've had and that I've had. And it's difficult to find that. Right. And some some have been in that room with you, Hugo and myself, that have just shot the messenger either way. Like, this guy's you know, I'm shooting the messenger because I don't like how he behaves, I don't like what he says. Hugo Langton: Yeah, yeah, they're shooting the messenger and not the message. Really, you know, I don't know, it's, I think to want to get better at something, you've got to want to get better at something and you've got to make a decision. Okay, to get better at something, I'm going to have to put the effort and the time in and maybe some money to invest in myself. So you have a choice, you either do it or you don't, you know. But you know, I've learned to, I was never growing up ever like at school and stuff like that. I mean, I had no interest in school and education. You know, I got the basics in terms of, you your school qualifications. And I've never had an interest really in reading, writing, reflecting, learning, never, until that day. From that day, I... I have tried so hard to continually educate myself in the hope that I can become a better football coach, which means I can help my players better. And so, you know, now I read books and I can objectively reflect and criticize or take out the bits or be able to translate it to football. You know, I've learned how to be the link between the football staff and the medical staff, for example, because there's often a lot of miscommunication in there. And I thought this is a really important area because if these two aren't aligned, then you're going to have real problems. So Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm-hmm. Hugo Langton: I'm able to put myself, because I wanted to, in the middle. Don't get me wrong, I'm a football coach. I go onto the training pitch and I coach, right? But to be able to put yourself in the middle... to align everything is quite powerful, all right? But that doesn't happen overnight. This requires, as you know, Brian, you've gotta understand it and you've gotta seek knowledge and you've gotta read and you've gotta study and you've gotta completely understand all your references and the objectivity of it all. And I'm not saying that I do 100%, but each day I'm getting closer to that 100 % because it's something that has become. a quest for me, certainly over the last six, seven years, to be able to put myself in that situation and to be able to understand, you know, freshness, know, the importance of freshness and things like that, you know, and not kill players, not overload them. you know, more isn't better all the time, you know, and to be able to substantiate it with objective terms and references and explanations is very, very powerful. You know, so I actually think one of the problems that I have when I'm like now I'm looking, you know, between clubs. One of the problems I think I may have is that people may not want to hire me because they're thinking this guy's is going to come in and just like be on my case all the time. know? Yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah. Hugo Langton: Yeah. And I probably will be, but not, not as in the way that you think I'm going to do it, you know, because all I'm trying to do is to help you to get better. And so. The players get better and we win more games and we win titles and cups and trophies, which is what we all want to do, right? Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm-hmm. So what would be two or three questions that you think a coach should be asking themselves to know if they're heading down the path of improvement? Hugo Langton: Well, first thing is, if you're completely honest with yourself, do you really want to do this? Are you prepared to put in the time, any hours on top of your already busy work, life, family, life, home life, are you prepared maybe to get out of bed at 6 a.m. instead of 7 a.m. just so you can maybe study something for half an hour to 40 minutes? Are you prepared to do that? Are you prepared to put some money aside so when you have some free time that you can go on a course or do something that is going to help you to become a better coach? Are you prepared to do that? Are you prepared to accept feedback and encourage it? There's nothing more powerful than like sometimes I've I have a, you know, I'm going into training today. I've got a, right, this is what we're going to do today. But then I'm to hand it to you, Brian and go, Brian, this is what I'll explain, describe and explain it to you. Brian, break it for me, you know, and then you can go, well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And then you make it better. Right. And that's a really powerful thing to do, but are you prepared to do that? Or do you want to have the perception that you're more important than the players? You're not. None of us are. None of us coaches are more important to players. Our job is to help them, right? We can't, you know, if it's about your own ego, but are you prepared to accept that, you know, it isn't about you and your ego? These are the things that I had to ask myself all those years ago, you know, because I had an ego. Some might argue I still do. I don't, you know. I'm joking, but you know, it's... But these are things that you prepared to put in the work. Are you prepared to do it? You know, it may pay off, it may not. I don't know. That's up to you. But are you prepared to give it a go? It's like no different saying to a player who's reaching towards the end of their career, you know, do you want to keep playing for as long? You should keep playing for as long as you can. That your body will allow you at whatever level because the moment you can't play football anymore, you know, it's a sad day. So play for as long as you can. You know, so it's whether you're prepared to do it. Dr. Brian Shrum: Well I would think we've we've buried the topic of evolution. So hopefully coaches will, you know, if they're listening to this, take some pride in, you know, putting your ego aside as you mentioned there and then get out there and get to a course whether Hugo Langton: Yeah, are you prepared to look in the mirror or have someone show you the mirror and accept what you see? It's the best thing that ever happened to me, you know? Dr. Brian Shrum: This this environment here is easy to have a coach for a coach now. You know, you can you could be coaching someone all around the world just from this view view here we have here now. Hugo Langton: Yeah, but equally there'll be people that watch this that will go, well, this guy's an idiot, he doesn't know what, you know, what's he talking about? And that's also fine because that says how people react to things says so much about themselves. This is also, you know, can you listen to what you and I have been talking about? And can you be honest with yourself at some of the questions that and things that we discussed? Can you be honest with yourself or are you just going to go, nah, this episode's boring. I'm going to go to, to a different podcast with a different topic, you know. Dr. Brian Shrum: Learn about half spaces. There you go. Hugo Langton: Yeah, you know, I like half spaces. I don't want to listen to this and move on. You know, this this this conversation is not for you. Dr. Brian Shrum: Well, if they've tuned in this long, you mentioned a little bit about freshness, how that's impacted your career. Hugo Langton: Yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: You've mentioned a little about sports science there, keeping people fresh, understanding Hugo Langton: Yeah. Dr. Brian Shrum: where they are, which would segue, I I did see you've created something yourself called football. Hugo Langton: Yes I have. Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about it. Hugo Langton: Well, listen, just to give you little bit of context and background, for the last few, however many years, I always want to know how the players are before training and games and stuff. So we used to use, we created a Google, what's it called, Google form. So there's some basic questions, know, how are you feeling? How was your sleep? This, that, and the other, you know, does anything hurt? Rate yourself out of 10 on. is something source, anything we need to know about. And then they fill out this form, we'll take them about a minute and then it would get translated straight away into a spreadsheet. So then you get an overview of your squad, you know, and you can look for trends and things like that, right? But I thought, you know what, it might be really interesting just to have this as an app, right? And I developed it. So through a friend of mine, I developed this app. And I did it for myself because I just wanted to have a pretty simple tool where I could, the players could just open the app every morning and just take some 30 seconds, just fill out your, you know, the questions. And then I get an overview of how you are and I get an overview of the other team is, you know, and I did it for myself, but then I thought, do you know what, this, if any other coaches want to use it, they should be able to, you know? So I've had some great, great response. And it's just a very simple way of monitoring your players trends, what they need at that day, that moment. if people are fatigued, sore, then if you need to alter something that day in training, then you can. If you think you need to go and speak to somebody based on their answers, you can go and have a conversation. Because ultimately you want your players to turn up on a Saturday afternoon, for example, to play football and you want them to feel million dollars you know because they feel a million dollars and fresh as you like then you know they've got a great chance of being able to maintain great football actions for longer and 90 minutes and stuff you know and it also takes away the the chance perhaps that they they might get pick up an injury of some description because if you're tired you've got a bigger chance of picking something up but we I ran an experiment actually as well on the back of it before I launched it with a colleague of mine you might know him Peter Loffelt who's a Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm-hmm. Yeah, Peter. Hugo Langton: physiotherapist more physiotherapist on that side of the game and we actually ran an experiment for six weeks where we thought can we help semi-professional footballers remotely okay so we we had three volunteers two men and one woman all right who play play semi-professional football so that means that they have a job another job and I'll train in the evenings and play at the weekend. know, they'll be paid, semi-professionals still get paid, but you have to have another job, okay? Can we help them? And so for six weeks, we worked with these three players and the outcome was very, very interesting because we altered a lot of stuff for these three players. We supported them by WhatsApp and we had check-ins on Zoom and stuff. But obviously each player had different external factors. So we were able to help them so when it came to the weekend, they were ready to go. And that's available, that probably would be the paid part. So if anyone wants that, you can do it through the app and you get mine and Peter's help. But generally it's an app for coaches to use to monitor their team, to keep them fresh and to help them. Ultimately, so it's called football fresh. It's currently available in the Apple store It's not yet available in the Google store It will be soon, but you can also use it as a web app so if you just go into your browser and type it in and sign up and Yeah, it's really useful so Dr. Brian Shrum: Does does a team so is it team oriented or is it more player oriented? Hugo Langton: So it's both really. create, so if I've got my team and I invite the players, so everyone downloads the app and I invite the players to my team within the app, right? And then I say to them every day, you need to fill this out by whatever time, okay? And then so then I can see each player, how they are, but it will also give me an overall, this is where your team's at, right? So and it's rated at, everything's rated out of a hundred. So if you're 18 above, you're super fresh, right? And then as it drops down, it changes a little bit. I expect you plan a Saturday on Sunday. I expect the team numbers to be very low because obviously fatigue, you know, et cetera, et cetera, the money being travel, you don't know, right? So it gives you a general overview. I based the scoring system on some feedback I got from a guy from Boda Glint who I saw in I was on a course in Mallorca in the summer in Spain and I said to him how do you Measure players with the fresh or not. He well, get them to again. They have to answer some questions But they're given a direct response depending on what their number is. So it could be yet. Let's go train You know see the team doctor stay home depending on what the outcome was, yeah. Very, very black and white. I kind of based the scoring system on that, a little bit more expansive than that, you know. But the idea of it is for coaches just to help, again, just to help your players stay fresh and not kill them and injure them. Because the more your players are available, the better chances you've got of winning, as you know. So yeah, if anyone's Dr. Brian Shrum: Hm, yeah. Absolutely. Hugo Langton: listening to this, feel free to check this out. The website's footballfresh.co.uk. co.uk and it's in the App Store. Dr. Brian Shrum: Can you could could it could it be useful for a youth club? Hugo Langton: Absolutely. I've got, I've signed up on it. I've got teams that are under 13, 14. I've got one club here in England, a very well known football club. They want to put, they're going to use the app through their whole academy. And the reason being is because obviously until you're 16, so if you're under 16, under 15, under 14, Obviously you're still at school. Okay. And what that means is then you're also doing other activities at school. So you're training with this club three nights a week and you're playing on a match on a Sunday. And that's done in itself quite a lot after a long day at school, but also at school, what PE have you done? You know, what other sports have you had to play? What have you? So this, by doing it this way, the medical people, now can know exactly who's been doing what. And as a result of it, they can help them maybe monitor, you know, sort of change their training load a little bit with them, or do they need to have a better conversation with the school? So in order to keep this player healthy, because there's been, I've had so many stories over the years of players who are under 15 have broken down and nobody understands why, yeah. because they haven't bothered to check what they're doing away from the football club at school. Because at school you're still expected to participate, and rightly so, right? But if both, so this football club will, I'm pretty sure, create relationships with all the schools and go, look, you know, we need to find a balance here. When do you really need him? When don't you need him? You know, and then so if you really need him here, we'll taper him off here to make sure he's available there. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this unfolds for this football club. But they're the only ones so far I've been really smart and gone, let's put this through the club and help the kids. So it's going to be interesting to see how it progresses and how much they can help Dr. Brian Shrum: Does Hugo Langton: them. Dr. Brian Shrum: does the time of day influence their numbers? Hugo Langton: Well, with my players, I've always said to them, don't do it the moment you wake up because you just got out of bed, right? Wait for a bit, wait 30, 40 minutes before you fill it out. So like on a training day, I always ask the players to have it done by 8.30 in the morning because we train at 10.15 and I think that's a reasonable time because then it gives us enough time to. to change anything within the session that we might need to do. And then there's no surprises and we know everybody is, et cetera. So do it by 8.30. Match days, we tend to ask them to do it by 11 a.m. if it's a 3 p.m. kickoff. Just so again, there's no surprises. But days off, they can do it at midday because I want them to sleep. But the other really key thing here is explain to the players. I've always had a team meeting at the beginning of each season going, look, this is why we're doing this. Cause know, like players will go, well, I don't want to put myself in a position where I get taken out of the team. Right? Dr. Brian Shrum: Yeah. Hugo Langton: So that is a very clear explanation. Look, this is to help you be available to be picked every match day. And if we have to change something to help that happen, then that's what we have to do. Or you can ignore it or break down injured and miss three months. It's your choice, right? And so the players will then go, well, okay. Once they understand that this isn't... something to stop them playing football, which is always often an initial reaction. This is about Dr. Brian Shrum: Mm-hmm. Hugo Langton: helping you be able to play 40, 50 games a season. And once they understand that, because they need to be honest with it, then they get it. Dr. Brian Shrum: Absolutely. Well, after an hour of time of talking about evolution and some sports science, I do have one one sort of final question to see if you can help everybody that could be listening. If a if a if a person's listening they said, Well, I want to improve as a coach, so I need to start filling the blank. Hugo Langton: Looking in the mirror, as we've said a few times. Look, I obviously like, because I've been on the football coach evolution pathway for so long and I've done it as you have Brian, we're still on the pathway for a reason. We're still investing in ourselves and courses for a reason after all of this time, okay? So for me, it's over 10 years now, you know, and there's a reason why that is. And it's not because I like Raymond Verhyen or anything like that. I do like him, but it's irrelevant. The content that he puts out pushes your bar up endlessly, right? So I always encourage people that I know who ask me questions about it, I always encourage them, say, look, go and do, they do a thing, it's not that expensive. It's over eight, nine months, I think it is. It's called the online mentorship. I said, go and do that. And then when you finish that course, see where your brain's at, where your thinking's at, because that course is also designed to challenge your thinking. And I sound like a salesman for football coach evolution. Maybe I am unconsciously, but I encourage people to go and do that. If nothing else, you can go onto the website and read some of the articles. But at the same time, sure, go on and... investigate other sources and stuff like that and just compare it all. And then you'll figure out what's best for you. But if you want objective, no nonsense, bar pushing, ass kicking, know, show the mirror, coach education, then go there. Because as I said, there's a reason we're still doing it, Brian. Dr. Brian Shrum: Absolutely. Well, pleasure talking, have people look up football fresh and Hugo Langton: Please do, yeah, you know, it's free to use. Go on, use it. It's designed to help your players to use it. Dr. Brian Shrum: Man, what a pleasure. What a pleasure chatting with you today. Hugo Langton: And thank you for having me Brian as always.