Justin: Welcome to the conscious divorce podcast. I'm Justin Millrad, divorce coach, author of you 2.0 and founder of reclaim and reboot transformational coaching. today we're going deep on something. Most people sleep on when they're going through divorce, the parenting plan, not the paperwork version, the real one, ⁓ The that's to govern how you raise your kids across two households through developmental stages you haven't even hit yet with a person you're no longer partnered with. Most couples spend more time arguing over who gets the Vitamix than thinking through what happens when they're six year old becomes 16 year old with options. such as a driver's license and zero interest in a custody schedule someone drew up decades ago. guest today spent over 15 years helping families navigate exactly this. She's a certified mediator, a certified parenting coordinator and decision maker and founder of JHADR services. She operates nationally. She's contracted with the Colorado State Court's Office of Dispute Resolution. And she's one of the clearest thinkers I've come across on co-parenting. But before we get started, a quick note, I'm a certified divorce coach, not a therapist, attorney, or financial advisor. Nothing on this podcast is legal, financial, or mental health advice. The conversations we have here are meant to inform, inspire, and give you a starting point, not a finish line. If you're going through a divorce, please work with the appropriate licensed professionals for your specific situation. Now with that said, let's go. Joy Hernandez, welcome to the show.

Joy Hernandez: Thank you, Justin. I appreciate you allowing me the opportunity to come and visit with you today.

Justin: Great to have you. Joy, give us the 30 second version of your own origin story. You've been at this for 15 plus years. What pulled you into the conflict resolution and then specifically into parenting coordination?

Joy Hernandez: my story is pretty simple. I just, love helping people and I love solving problems. So ⁓ given the opportunity to be able to do that, conflict resolution was that best, you know, the best area or for me to go into when helping people that are dealing with a situation like divorce, when it's the ⁓ probably the or the darkest time of their life. their most horrible situations they're going through they have no one else to rely on. Being able to be that buffer for them to help them see that there is a light at end of the tunnel, that there is a path that they can ⁓ forward on, that is a very rewarding situation for me. And I really appreciate the opportunities that people have given me to help them with that. It's ⁓ a that many people have. ⁓ It's hard to just give it away to somebody that you don't even know.

Justin: And it's probably also very hard to quantify or even qualify over time. You you participating in the process can really make a huge difference in the long-term outcome of not just, you know, the settlement, but how the kids do over a long period. So for listeners who are early in their divorce or even just finalizing it, can you quickly break down the difference between a mediator, a parenting coordinator, and a decision-maker?

Joy Hernandez: Exactly, exactly.

Justin: because people hear those terms and they blur together.

Joy Hernandez: No, they do. So with a mediator, a mediator is a neutral, impartial third party that helps facilitate the discussion regarding different various aspects that need to be resolved for. So with divorce mediation, a divorce mediator would help guide them through the process of all of those issues and considerations that legally, by state statute, have to be resolved in order to file for an uncontested divorce or to have the court not make those decisions for you. A parenting coordinator, is an individual who is impartial, but is not neutral. That helps the parents after the parenting plan is created to either ⁓ implement it or better assess it to understand how to ⁓ put it in play and actually make those words on paper reality. A decision maker is an offshoot of the parenting coordinator role. but they actually are given one step more of authority to make decisions when the parents can't make those decisions themselves.

Justin: That's super helpful. So I'm going to throw one more in there. Decision maker versus guardian ad litem. What's the difference?

Joy Hernandez: Well, a guardian at Lightham is an advocate for the child and only for the child or for even for a parent or an individual that is needing that support. So that would be if there is like mental deficiency or some other situation where that allowed them to not have the ⁓ ability to make decisions. Whereas the parent coordinator does not have that authority to make decisions for everything. So again, where state statutes identify whether the parenting coordinator can make decisions on minor situations, they ⁓ cannot make decisions on child support, and they can usually not make decisions on other financial situations that need the parents to determine. That would have to go back to the court.

Justin: Thank you for that clarification. you walk us through a scenario where a couple comes to you as a parent coordinator or decision maker? ⁓ these typically court ordered cases or do people seek these out voluntarily? And what does the intake process typically look

Joy Hernandez: So normally the ⁓ that come to me would be through a court order and they're appointed by the court because it's high conflict. So when you have a high conflict divorce, normally individuals within that situation don't have the ability or control to manage it And so the parenting coordinator helps provide them with a way to... Identify hey, this is a pathway we can go on in order to get forward again with a mediator or with parenting coordinator. You actually want to have your role not. Be a consistent ongoing role. You want to train them. You want to provide them education. You want resources so they don't need you going forward. So it allows for that transition to happen and take place and so the parenting coordinator assist with that when doing the intake. Usually first you would identify if there's any issues with regards to domestic violence or any other ⁓ situations there that you need to be aware of as a parenting coordinator in order to help facilitate the discussions and or the situation. Asking them obviously the general questions regarding, know, all the, you know, who your kids are and all the names and ages and everything else. Understanding what their parenting plan currently identifies and states and then how each of them relates to it and or understands it. because that's a major concern sometimes. It's just the parents don't understand the parenting plan.

Justin: Sure. So there's a meaningful difference between a parent coordinator and a decision maker in terms of authority. How do you explain that distinction to a parent who's standing in the middle of a conflict and just wants someone to make a call?

Joy Hernandez: Well, again, with the decision maker, if both parents agree to have that decision maker make the decision, then that's acceptable. But in most cases, if the court identifies and has appointed you as a certain level of role or authority, you have to go back to the court to get that approval as well. So it just depends. Where you would think that two parents who feel that, hey, we can't make this decision. We can't come up with it. Can you do it? If they both agree to that, it's a lot of pressure on you to as a decision maker to make a decision for somebody else's life and for their kids and everything else. So I really do my best to try not to have to do that because no one wants to be told what to do. So when the parents can actually find a solution themselves and that they mutually accept, it's going to be more ⁓ more of a consistent and stable situation where that they will follow it going forward.

Justin: I love what you alluded to earlier about kind of training the parents to resolve the issues and the conflict because that just makes it so much easier and it also keeps the temperature down. I'm going to give you a scenario. We have two parents. Let's call them Mark and Dana. They divorced two years ago and they have a 50-50 custody plan. Mark has a new partner and Dana's relocated 40 minutes away and they're fighting every week about who picks up the kids from school, who misses a recital and rules apply on whose days. At what point does this conflict become a ⁓ coordinator decision-maker situation rather than just go back to your attorneys? ⁓

Joy Hernandez: Well, personally, back to the attorneys will not solve any problems for a parent that already has a parenting plan in place and is already working through it. But so going to a parenting coordinator, again, ⁓ even go a mediator with someone that can just stand there and be the buffer for a time being so that they can communicate effectively together is the best thing. Because again, communication is key. where most times communication is the reason why people do get divorced. Communication is also the reason why people in the co-parenting roles are successful is because they can communicate effectively together without the emotion, without all the other drama that's attached to it. It's hard, but it can be done. And that would be the best solution. ⁓

Justin: my next question is, what does a binding decision maker decision actually look like in practice? And can parents appeal it? ⁓ know, does it go back to court? How does it typically get resolved?

Joy Hernandez: So yes, so where if you are appointed as a decision maker, most state statutes allow for an appeals process ⁓ one of the parents does not agree with it. Where, and then when the decision maker has to make the decision, ⁓ will actually have to write out a very lengthy finding of fact and then identifying exactly what the decision is and why the decision was made that way. And that could be anywhere, and especially for a situation where you're trying to make a decision about where the child goes to, what dentist the child goes to, something like that. It could be a four or five page essay that you're writing out, identifying how you found came to this decision and why you came to this decision. So it's one of those things where it's if the parents can make the themselves because questioning it afterwards. if one of the parents doesn't, they can take it back to the court, the court can appeal it. parent can appeal it and the court can review it and then they can then judge on it and provide that order.

Justin: Okay, that's good to know. We're gonna walk back to mediation and another one of the hats that you wear. So let's talk about the parenting plan. parents are sitting in a lawyer's office or a mediation session trying to sort out logistics while they're emotionally wrecked. ⁓ not recognizing the different ages and stages that kids are in. ⁓ what are some of the biggest mistakes you see people make when they're drafting up a parenting plan? And I just wanna add, You know, often what I hear is that the parenting plan is not always the first thing that's being discussed. It's more time is focused on division of assets. And then it's, oh, you know, we got an hour left. Let's work on the parenting plan. you know, I'd say right now, currently in my practice, 65 % of my clients retain me over co-parenting issues because of things that were never clearly laid out or included in the parenting plan.

Joy Hernandez: And it's sad, but I would have to agree with you on that because majority of the parenting plans that are created are created by legal professionals and they do a great job at writing legal briefs, but they don't do a very good job at writing something that people can understand. So where, to your point that they would go and talk about the financial aspects first, I always go talk about the kids first. Children's considerations are way more important than dividing up the house or how money is going to be spent. because the kids, everything. ⁓ are the most important piece of any divorce or any family in general. Because again, you have to be able to ⁓ for them what they need, not ⁓ it is that you're looking for. So I always start with the parenting plan first. And we spent quite a lot of time on that versus ⁓ other part. The things that I usually see missing and that they don't usually think about include all of the little things that no one really cares about. you know, talking about, ⁓ relocate, what does that look like? They taking vacations, what does that entail? How long can they be gone? the parents come back, if they take some of their regular time sharing schedule and then vacation and then some more. Is there additional time for the parents to see the other parent, mean, the kids to see the other parent when they do get back or before they leave. So as to not keep them too far apart from each other. Talking through when the kids are not with ⁓ custodial parent, ⁓ are they allowed to do? Can they call them on the phone? Can the parent initiate communication with the kids if they're with the other parent? What does that look like and how is that gonna work? There's so many different considerations that aren't. realized, but at the same point, why would they know that? There's so many things when you're going through a divorce that you don't know until after you've gone through it and then you live the horrors of it. So like us that will help them guide them through that process ⁓ are more focused on helping rather than trying just to get them done and filed. And that's again, where attorneys are different from divorcing and mediators.

Justin: You know, of the things that I see happening ⁓ too often is someone hires someone who's not a family attorney. They're a family friend, you know, who's a general attorney. ⁓ I think they mean well, but they don't have the experience. you know, even with family attorneys, a lot of things are missing. So, you know, I'm going to give you some examples, you know, from my particular divorce and we used. very, very expensive, well qualified, strong reputation attorneys, but things like, you know, paying for a bar mitzvah, what does that look like? Paying for a car. What does that look like? Lessons to drive. What does that look like? Splitting costs for ⁓ and things related to overnight camp. And these are all big, big purchases. ⁓ then while not every state has a requirement for college, well, college can be a huge expense. It could be several hundred thousand dollars per kid per year. And if you plan for it, then you reduce the chances of something blowing up at a later date. while it's not even necessarily required in every state, it's still good to talk about. And sometimes you can even, you know, if you're not willing to commit, you can sometimes put in some... loose language, so at least it becomes an area that you want to visit at certain ages and stages. anyone who wants or needs a comprehensive parenting plan, connect with me, connect with Joy, connect with other professionals to make sure that you don't miss things, because it's not just about defining them, it's about protecting your sanity in the future.

Joy Hernandez: exactly. Yeah, really the parenting plan, if nothing else, it's a way to mitigate conflict. by clearly identifying ⁓ clarifying what it is that the expectations are moving forward is key because the greatest I see is the parents ⁓ not the transition from husband-wife roles to mom and dad roles. And so ⁓ there's huge blur and overlap. that needs to be more clearly defined. And by creating a clear parenting plan, defines those roles so that there isn't any confusion or any ambiguity.

Justin: Yeah, stronger your parenting plan, the easier life's gonna be. Net, net. the research on child development is pretty clear. The kids at different ages and stages need very different things from their caregivers, know, namely mom and dad. Research consistently shows that between the ages of nine and 10,

Joy Hernandez: Mm-hmm.

Justin: peer and friend groups begin to take precedence over family and children show an increasing need for independence. a standard parenting plan drawn up when a kid is four doesn't account for all that typically. How should developmental stages be informing the of a plan from the very beginning?

Joy Hernandez: That is key because I have had so many times where the parents maybe weren't even married or they were just together and they have an infant, two or three months old, that they're trying to create overnights for the dad and overnights. What? That's not possible. They're still breastfeeding. There's still considerations that need to be identified regarding the fact that baby's still bonding to the individuals and they need to have both of the individuals there to bond with, not. singly and away from each other. So looking at the stages and the ages of the kids is very important. I know when creating pairing plans, a lot of times people don't even want to think about this, but having phased pairing plan, having a temporary situation in there to allow for greater development or greater growth, especially children that haven't ⁓ had one of their parents for a long time, to just be able to force them into overnight. that's not going to help. It's not going to be good for them and it's not going to be good for the other parent either because they're going to be stressed out wondering what's going on. So making sure that there's a path created and defined so that each parent can have that meaningful relationship with their child but be able to do it in a way that isn't going to be directly negative for the child themselves.

Justin: you know, different ages and stages mean different things and our capabilities are also not always the same, between parents. I had a client who was really good with his kid who was seven, but wasn't really good with the baby. the agreement that they came up with was ⁓ until that child hits they will spend the majority of their time with mom. And I thought that was actually pretty awesome of both parents because it wasn't necessarily about, you know, being 50 50. It's just, have certain skill sets and you have certain skill sets and you have, you know, the mom had a lot of concerns about the dad's ability to raise, you know, the child as a infant and a toddler and the father admitted it. ⁓ he's like, well, that's really a strength of yours. And honestly, I'd feel more comfortable if that child was with you, but you know, I still want to spend time with them and they worked out an arrangement that I think is going to work out really, really well for them. know, so I just want to note that, sorry, one second, that the needs of infant and toddlers, which is typically zero to three preschool, which is three to five, you know, school age, six to 12, teenagers, 13 to 18, all the needs are very different.

Joy Hernandez: Yeah.

Justin: And especially if you have kids at different ages and stages, the complexity changes. And that's just a reinforcement of why you and your ex should have a strong co-parenting relationship, because you're going to need to lean on each other for your kids in the different ages and stages.

Joy Hernandez: And another ⁓ situation there as well is the individual time with each child. So if you have more than one child, that's one thing I never see in a parenting plan is individual time. They always talk about, the kids go here, the kids go there, the kids, you know what? It gets annoying to be a sibling and they always have to go with your older brother or younger sister or somewhere else. And you have no time with that And then having this change as it is, it's, you know, difficult. So. Making sure that there's time, individual time for each child with each parent is critical too. And doing something to that nature where it allows for the overnights with the older child and allows for still time spent with the younger one, everybody's situation is different. So ⁓ trying to create ⁓ thing to make work it is just not gonna be possible. flexibility is, I think, the key to any good parenting plan.

Justin: Here's a real scenario, you two parents get divorced, they create a parenting plan when their daughter's three, fast forward seven years, she's now 10, heavily involved in competitive gymnastics, and the practice schedule just doesn't align with the custody exchange schedule, and also with the uniqueness of the parents' jobs. So neither parent is wrong, it just is what it is because ⁓ know, competitive gymnastics, and the parents didn't plan for this. So ⁓ do do in scenarios like this?

Joy Hernandez: Well, kind of you have to like step back a moment and you have to help them step back a moment and say, okay, well, this is not what you planned. This is not what was expected, but this is what you have. So let's see what makes sense. Making sure that there is still time for each. Again, with the 50-50 or the, have, know, it's thinking that everything's gonna be exactly the same equal is ridiculous. It's not going to be. There's gonna be one parent that has a little bit more time than the other, if not more, you know, a lot more time. but it doesn't have to be exactly 187.5 days with one and 180, you know, kind of with the other one. It just needs to be equitable and that each parent gets the meaningful time they need with their child and the child gets the meaningful time they need with the parent. So it's setting up a plan that works for them. So it's not gonna be a cookie cutter. It'll be something special that will make. make it work for them and allow for them to change it as they see, they need it to be changed. Because again, it's their parenting plan. It's theirs to do whatever they want with. So they need to have that control over it and be able to manage how they need to manage it.

Justin: So I think it's also important for parents to acknowledge that doing the that they can. ⁓ and that it's okay to ask for help. Other parents on the teams maybe instead of driving to every practice or every meet, you switch off and one drives, one picks up. Use and leverage your resources because if you don't, you're gonna go nuts. I can assure you that.

Joy Hernandez: Exactly.

Justin: What are some of the non-obvious clauses that you wish more parenting plans included? know, things people don't necessarily think about until they're fighting about.

Joy Hernandez: Well. There's a lot, let me say. It really just truly depends. So ⁓ major one is a clearly defined expense breakdown of what's included in support and what's not included in child support. So many individuals have no idea that child support really in most statutory ways that it really only covers like the portion of the child's like room and board, their food. utilities, things like that. And it doesn't cover the activities they do. It doesn't cover all the other expenses they have. It doesn't include clothing, doesn't include school supplies. It doesn't include any of that stuff. So where all of those things need to be paid for, they're usually not even addressed. Another area that is not, I find is not as commonly included. is ⁓ when they do holidays, when holidays and different shared occasions or special occasions are discussed, talking through when exchanges should take place. If the parent, you know, already has the child during that time, what does that differ anything ⁓ of the rigor of time sharing schedule or does that change anything? As well as making sure that the parents understand and know that they don't have to go back to court every time they don't agree on something. that they don't have to follow the word of this document, like, I mean, to the letter. They can actually change it if they both agree on it. Again, no one's gonna care if, as long as they agree, there's no one there to fight. So what's, you guys can change it however you want. I've had so many parents come through with a court order that has, that they got their parenting plan from, and they're like, we can't change this. Like, yes, you can. Who's gonna go and tell anybody if you guys both agree on it? And so it's one of those things where to keep them, to keep the parents restricted or restrained or constrained from being able to actually be a parent is not, that's what I find is the area that's the biggest problem in a parenting plan.

Justin: You know, for ⁓ the people who don't use family law attorneys, some of the things that I see coming up often, in addition to what you said, are right of first refusal. And that one blows my mind, know, that they didn't even include that. Yeah.

Joy Hernandez: And you probably see more parenting plans than I do I create them and I know what I included. But you're probably right. Rodifers refusal is always forgotten, which is silly because that makes so much sense.

Justin: makes so much sense. I mean, it's more stable for the kids. And then another one is, you know, moving. a certain distance, typically out of state or out of country. I think that's one of the most important ones that you can't just move to a different country, because that changes everything. It changes all dynamics, and it's a huge change for the kids. A few other ones are social media discussions, and that's always a difficult one. Travel and passport control, mental health treatment. So you ⁓ so many things that it's ad nauseum, but... ⁓

Joy Hernandez: Mm-hmm. I've seen those ones too.

Justin: If you can solve for 95 % of things that will typically come up, it will definitely improve relationship and make things a lot more clear for your planning perspectives.

Joy Hernandez: Yeah. And again, where you don't want the parenting plan to have every possible situation that could possibly ever happen addressed. You do need to include like this, the very variety of ones that you know that will or may come up to your point, like relocation. Yeah. There's so many times we don't plan on relocating. We're not planning on doing this or introducing significant others, new partners to the kids. There's no discussion regarding that, but that can be ⁓ detrimental to a child. If you do that. as a rotating, revolving door kind of thing, where you're constantly having new partners and you're constantly introducing them to the kids, the kids get attached and then they're gone again. So stability and making sure that there is consistency in the kids' life is the most important piece.

Justin: for sure. divorce conflict that involves kids is not just a logistical problem, it's an emotional and psychological one. You the research is pretty clear that ongoing parental conflict post divorce is one of the most damaging things for children outcomes, regardless of custody arrangement. And by the way, the opposite is true too. If parents get along in a co-parenting relationship, it's as if the parents were still married in a healthy relationship, which is incredible. Lots of empirical evidence there. How do you hold that reality in the room without making the parents feel judged? You know, what do you do to educate them? you know, before they finalize the decision.

Joy Hernandez: Well, have done this in the past with a couple of clients where I had them like imagine, have them, you okay, if I was, if this was a situation and ⁓ doing it like this, how would you imagine that your child would be reacting to it? It's surprising how ⁓ what they think and how they feel that the child would react to certain things. And so ⁓ making sure they understand that how, just how, ⁓ how well their child is adjusting, but all of the other little keys and factors that need to be understood that ⁓ have control over everything that you do as a person, at how you react, how you act, how you behave, how everything that you do. ⁓ have no control over anybody else, but over yourself. So that each person needs to take that responsibility and accountability to do what they need to do, regardless of ⁓ other parent. to do what they need to do for the child and make sure that they do their best as a parent. So, I mean, you can only do so much because you can't, you know, get in their little brain and change the thoughts, but it's one of those things where you hope that they understand that and they see how important it is that they are effectively and they aren't, you know, creating more conflict and they aren't talking about the other parent in front of the kids or whatever that, you know, derogatory situation.

Justin: You know, it's such a mind game and there's so much, guess, vitriol out there. But what I like to remind my clients is one point you were in love with this person. And you you had so many years and if they had kids, ⁓ you ⁓ you've a beautiful in your kids. ⁓ And I think we automatically assume the worst that this person is here to destroy me or this person wants the worst for me or they're, you know, they're ready for a fight and, know, you got your fists ready to go. When in actuality, when I get the parents together in the room, a lot of their perceptions are wrong. and they get calmed down tremendously. And it's actually been a very successful process and then they can work together better. you know, I noticed on your website and through our conversation, you offer something called conflict coaching in addition to, you know, mediation and PCDM work. You know, how does that fit into the picture and is that a precursor to mediation or something people use on an ongoing basis?

Joy Hernandez: Mm-hmm. ⁓ it, conflict coaching is a, a methodology that has to be taken on as like a personal desire for that, for that individual to understand better, not only how like how they manage conflict, but also how to manage other people's way that they manage their conflict. So it's understanding yourself and knowing if I'm unavoidant, then I need to, you know, do these various things so I can better not avoid conflict, but actually address it and manage it. Whereas if ⁓ other is an avoidant, then there's strategies that ⁓ I take in order to ensure that I can then manage the conflict appropriately and it's not just avoided and then not addressed. And that was a huge problem later. If you don't address the problem today, it's still gonna be a problem tomorrow. So. it needs to be addressed and it needs to be resolved. So figuring out a way to do that is how what conflict coaching does. It allows for different strategies and techniques so that the people can better manage all of the relationships in their life. And that's at work, know, the kids, everything. Because once you understand how you can impact a situation and how you can change that situation by just how you act, it's amazing what the outcome could be.

Justin: Yeah, it's so interesting to me. Communication in general, if we were better at it, it would fix a lot of problems in life, not just in your relationships, but work and everything else.

Joy Hernandez: ⁓ yeah. Well, and again, where you have a high conflict, you know, divorce or a high conflict situation, they always tell you to use texts or go through a parenting app and only write ⁓ communication. I find that written communication is the worst type of communication to use when you have high conflict, because when you have asynchronous communication, you're just reading what your own tone is for that person. So that may not be their intent at all. and it may not be their tone, but you can read one line from somebody and take it in an attitude way and have a tone in your head and everything else that they did said it this way when it was said it completely, soperately. Whereas again, if you are able to just speak it and say it firmly, you know, and it followed the BIF that you identified brief, informative, friendly ⁓ firm. Provide that. That I feel is way way more effective in the long run. But it's being able to do that in a way that there is not emotion, there's not triggers, there's not all those other things that come along with the verbal. And again, it's only one person that do it. So ⁓ you only control of yourself. You have to also be able to control yourself from being triggered too. And that's hard to do sometimes.

Justin: I always say divorce recovery and it really is recovery. You know, it's a single player game and you have two circles. got the one in the middle. What can I control? And then you have one on the outside, which is what I can't control. And that's typically communication with your ex-spouse. But when you communicate, you use the BIF method and you know, Another thing that I noticed was there's so much fear, like trauma and fear from things that have happened in the past. But it's important to remind each other and ourselves that fear not facts. ⁓ ⁓ people, they just want peace. They want peace. They want to move on with their lives. They wish well, ⁓ know, to their ex and they want their kids to do well. And sometimes we create a three alarm fire. ⁓ when there's just a little spark. And I think that's really important. So Joy, gonna start wrapping up, but if there was one thing you could put on a billboard for divorcing parents, what you like them to commit to before they finalize their parenting plan?

Joy Hernandez: Always remember it's about the kids, that you love your kids, you love the fact that you can be a parent for them and you can be the best parent for them. Just remember that they are what's important. That again, whatever I get, you get into divorce and whatever, you get everything else, that's great. But making sure that they have what they need, that's the priority and that should always be the priority.

Justin: What would you consider the most common self-defeating pattern that you see in high-conflict co-parenting situations that people can really think about and make sure that they avoid? know, things that people think is protecting them or their kids, but it's actually making things worse.

Joy Hernandez: it may be that historical fear that, always been like this, it's always gonna be like this. That pattern of thinking is ⁓ helpful. And usually creates more problems. Because again, once you change roles and once you change the transition from the husband-wife or the boyfriend-girlfriend role to just mom and dad, a lot of things will change. And that includes how... how you should be reacting and how you should be acting towards the other. You shouldn't be treating them as they're your husband that you'd have to nag or do this or that to. No, they're dad. And your kids see dad, not like you see him as a husband. being able to, yeah, being able to help provide them with that greater understanding.

Justin: From your own personal standpoint, when you're working with couples on co-parenting, what separates the families who figure it out from the ones who are back in conflict for years? Is it personality? Is it emotional regulation? Is it legal structure? What do you think the actual differentiator is?

Joy Hernandez: It's the ability to let go. Resentment and anger and animosity, that can fester and fester and fester and create such horrible situations for the kids, such horrible situations for the parents that it just is not worth it. where it's hard to tell people, hey, just not, you said, let it go. That really is, I think the major. situation and once people can realize that and understand it, just everything in life just seems so much easier.

Justin: Yeah, I love that advice. You know, in my own head, I always ask myself, is this the hill I want to die on? you know, that very quickly helps me think about whether or not this is worth pursuing. And sometimes it is. Last And this is for every parent listening who thinks they've gone too far to fix the dynamic with the co-parent. What do you want them to know?

Joy Hernandez: It's never too far when you're trying to do this for your child. So again, you're advocating for them. You want to make sure that the other parent is there and has a good relationship with the child. need to do everything you possibly can do. At some point, maybe, ⁓ no, I think that there's still always a way ⁓ it can be better. So never give up. Never think that it's just gonna have to end up this way. No, always keep striving for something that's a little bit more.

Justin: that. Joy, this has been the exact type of conversation I want people to have before they need it, not after they're already in the middle of a conflict with no roadmap. The parenting plan is not a legal formality, it's the operating system for how your kids are going to experience the next decade or longer across two households. Get it right, go deep, spend the time and build it. and build room in it for it to grow. And if you're already past that point and you're in the weeds, people like Joy exist for exactly that reason. Joy, how can people get ahold of you?

Joy Hernandez: Well, they can go to my website. It's jhadrservices.com. They can also give me a call. My number is 1-888-529-5099, or they can send me an email. And that's at jhadrservices.gmail.com.

Justin: And you can help people across geography, right? So they don't necessarily have to be in the same state that you're practicing in.

Joy Hernandez: Correct. mean, again, we're not legally doing, I'm not providing any advice. I'm not providing any legal advice or financial advice or anything of that nature. I'm just helping two people find solution to their problem and then writing it down on paper. So again, there's nothing that needs to be sent to the court if you guys don't want to. The parents can do whatever they want to do with it. But this allows for them to know that there's something in writing that they both agreed on, that ⁓ this will with conflict going forward.

Justin: cannot the importance of such an investment. If you have a effective co-parenting relationship, then your kids are well and you're well and you can just move forward with peace of mind. If today's conversation hit close to home and you're navigating co-parenting challenges, or you're still in the middle of your divorce and trying to think strategically, that's exactly what I do. Sign up for a free consultation at www.reclaimandreboot.me. No pitch, no pressure, just strategy. You can also grab my books, You 2.0, Divorce a Better Way Forward and the You 2.0 Workbook on amazon.com. I'm Justin Norad and you've been listening to the Conscious Divorce Podcast. The goal was never to survive your divorce, it was always to design what comes after. We'll see you next week.