speaker-0: ministry is done by everybody. And so I it forces us to ask, you know, like what what what am I doing with what I have? How am I known? So that's where you see that transition as you're uncovering like what is he commending? What is he acknowledging? What is he highlighting? It then becomes really easy to c kind of ask the same questions about ourselves.

speaker-1: Hey, it's episode 113 of the Adding Color podcast. And if you're watching the video, you see my dear friend Ian Hales is our guest for this episode. And Ian and I go way back to 2006. I think you were were you 18 in 2006?

speaker-0: Ha ha ha not quite. Twenty six. That's good.

speaker-1: You were tw twenty six and it was at Master Seminary when we were

speaker-0: You would have been twenty three, sorry, twenty three. I would have graduated when was twenty six. Yeah.

speaker-1: See, that's what happens is you get to be my age, man, your your memory starts to go.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. You're a little you're a little further along than me, but I think your mind's still sharper than mine, so

speaker-1: well, Sharp is is relative, but I was introduced to Ian and I just found that Ian and his wife Sarah were I I guess one of the ways I would describe you, Ian, is is an old soul. And what I mean by that is as a 23 year old, you were already wrestling with theology and scripture. And a lot of it, as I recall, was that you were kind of self taught because coming from Canada. It seems like maybe the some of the resources and some of the equipping was a little bit different in your journey as a follower of Christ. Give give us a little lay of the land of Canada and what moved you and Sarah to to come to Los Angeles to attend the Master Seminary.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's a great question. And I I think that you're right. I was mainly self-taught when I got the seminary. My background in Canada was that I I grew up in a the very seeker-sensitive church. So it was very theologically, doctrinally light, topical messages, and not a lot of depth. And I had a real kind of gospel awakening in my late teen. kind of early twenties and and it it really revolved just around God's word. God hit God really having to strip me down and and take me through some difficult circumstances, but really bringing me back to his word and digging into his word in a way that I never had before. And and it was really by just immersing myself in God's word that I started to understand God's word and love God's word and Go figure the word started doing a work within me and growing me and amazing. And mature, yeah, it's amazing. It does what it says it will do. And and and that kind of led me down a path of exploration where I was introduced to John MacArthur's teachings. And I never heard of John MacArthur. I'd never heard of expositional preaching, but I remember hearing. a sermon from John MacArthur for the first time, and I I had to pick my job from the floor because I'd never heard Bible teaching like that. The Bible opened up and unpacked verse by verse with such clarity, and it was so compelling, and it was exactly what I needed at the time. You know, I was so hungry for the word. And so that just really began a journey of just growing, listening to sermons, getting into books. I don't know if I'd ever read a book before that. But just really diving in deep. And and and through that process, I you know, as God was working in me, I was sharing my faith, evangelizing. And I wanted, you know, I saw God save two of my closest friends. And so we started a Bible study in my basement and just digging into God's word and trying to understand what it meant and trying to learn together, grow together, pray together. and and in that process, We were again bringing in some sermons from MacArthur and and over the course of a year just started really loving the word, feel sensing God calling me into ministry. The church I was at was affirming that as well. And when I found out that there was a seminary in California, I had to get out of the cold.

speaker-1: So kind. You know, one of the things that you said that I think as a listener to the Adding Color podcast, they would pick up on, and that is a hunger for God's word. And there are so many discoveries. In fact, you and I are talking about the text that we're going to go through here in Romans 16. And we we can read it, we can read it multiple times. And there there just seems to always be depth and and and breadth and height as you study God's word. But but I also have had the blessing of walking through life and ministry with you for now, I guess, 20 years. Yeah. And the word doesn't just solve all the problems. The the word doesn't just become an academic exercise, as you said. The word does its work. And so we graduated from seminary and we spent some more time together in Chicago getting trained to be church planters. And then your journey took you back home to Canada. And so just Talk about the the launching of your church. You you celebrated your sixteenth anniversary. Tell us where the church is now, how it's doing.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's it's it's been a a wild ride. And, you know, being in the US, there was a number of opportunities that I had to stay there. And I'll never forget when I when I left to go to seminary, I had a dear friend of mine who's an older gentleman, still a member of our church. He said to me when we left, said Ian, make sure you come back. And that stuck with me. And I think the reality is that the landscape for churches is very different in Canada than in the US. And You know, I I love the US. I love that there's churches all over the place and Christianity in in many pockets of the country is flourishing. Yes, you you have cultural Christianity and you have all kinds of challenges that you face. But Canada is very secular and there's not a lot of churches. And there's a desperate need for solid churches, bible teaching churches, gospel centered churches. And so I knew that when I came back, that's that's the kind of church I wanted to plant and that's the kind of church we wanted to be. And we've just seen God really blessed. Like you said, we launched in 2010 and we launched in a high school. We met there for 10 years, and God kind of slowly and steadily grew our church numerically and was growing us spiritually. And then COVID came along and we got kicked out of the school. And another church in the area opened up their facility to us, let us start coming in and meeting. And when they decided to come back and meet, they wanted the morning slot back. And so we were given the afternoon slot. So We've been meeting for the last six years in a church facility that we don't own, but in the afternoon. And and we initially thought that again, God was going now, this this may hurt our growth. who knows if people are gonna stick with us. And we've seen just the opposite. God has been incredibly kind to to keep growing our church and and bring people, new people, unchurched people. So we're just seeing God do some really, really awesome things. And we're in the process of of trying to raise up leaders and church planters. We wanna we wanna fly to church in the next couple of years east of us. like I said, such a desperate need for churches. We got people driving, coming from two and a half hours east of us. because they're the it's it's like a barren wasteland for churches here in Canada. And there's a real hunger for Bible teaching churches. So we're doing our part and we're just seeing God work and excited about what the future holds.

speaker-1: Well, you know, it's always interesting to look at the map as we analyze the reach of this podcast. And, you know, from time to time we will get listeners from Canada. And so if you if you are listening and you have friends or family in the Ontario kind of Toronto region, just let me direct you and we'll put a link to Redemption Church in the episode notes. But send them to Redemption Church. It is a Bible centered disciple making church and You'll get an opportunity when you go to their webpage to to see Ian's messages. And I'm always impacted when I hear Ian preach. I'm always impacted when we have theological conversations. I've said this to you before, Ian. I I count you as one of the faces on my Mount Rushmore of people who have impacted my life. And it's because of this just constant hunger for God's word and more importantly for the Christ of God's word. And I really saw that on display as we pursued our doctoral degrees. From Southern. But also, what I've appreciated about you is while we have the same common hunger for God's word, we we also maybe approach the preparation for preaching in our own personal study, maybe differently. And so I want you to be able to add color to our listeners as they open this ancient text that has modern relevance to be able to understand how you get ready for a sermon, but then also to translate that for those who are not. creatures and how they can take similar approach and tools to be able to study the Word of God on their own.

speaker-0: Yeah. Well, I think first of all, there's there's nothing better than just sitting in the word of God. So I I think at times we can be quick to rush to tools or aids to help us. And one of the things I've I've learned and that has impacted my study of God's word most is just learning to sit in the text. to just linger there, to not be quick to move, to to pray over the text, to just be immersed in the word and Not just in the text that I'm studying, but maybe, maybe even the broader context, the book, the book itself. You know, I'm preaching through the book of Philippians right now. And one of the things that I'm I'm doing is I'm reading the book of Philippians every single day. And in my devotional time, not just the passage I'm preaching, but I'm just I'm reading the book over and over and over. And I feel like that is just helping me see connections, even in the passage that's coming up for this week. And It's allowing me to see how Paul is developing some of those ideas. And so just by sitting in the text, I feel like I'm getting a more robust understanding of what Paul is trying to communicate to the church in Philippi. So I think that the greatest, the greatest tool we have is the word itself. it's often our impatience and our desire for expediency and efficiency. You know, we're we're a very efficient culture. Productivity that causes us to try to maybe move too past, too fast through the text or past things in the text. So, my my encouragement to anyone is just before you pick up a tool, a study Bible, anything, just sit in a text, observe it, ask questions, and and and try to let the word answer those questions. ask questions about what this teaches you about God. What does this reveal about me? what are the things that I need to see in this text for my life today? so I I j I just think that's that's the place to start and in many ways it's the best place to be.

speaker-1: Love that. So you usually just sit in the text. So you'll do that Monday or Tuesday. You know the passage because you're expositing a book, you know the next section, and so you'll read it and just pour over the text. Sounds like you pray about it before you even d start digging into the technical. so yeah, then w walk us through where you go from there. As you're so you've read the text, you've been praying. Yep.

speaker-0: Usually I'm I'm you know, I'm pretty old school. I'll sit down with a pad of paper and a pen and you know, I'll I'll just writing Yeah, I know. That's hard for you. I know.

speaker-1: I'm like, grab your Apple device, man.

speaker-0: I know. I I I'm an old soul, like you said, I'm an old soul. Yes you are. But I I I like to I just like to make notes. I like to make observations. I'd like to write it out. I like to start sketching out the argument. And even you know, i i from the English Bible even, before I go into maybe the exegesis in the Greek or the Hebrew, I wanna look at the English and how does this how is this argument structured? How is Paul thinking, for example, in Philippians? And I wanna just try try to track the argument the best I can and observe things in the text. So I'll sit there for quite a while. I'll pray over the text and then I'll usually move into the place of exegesis where I'm looking at the original language and I'm observing things there and trying to get a better handle on on what's in front of me. that's all early in the week for me. Okay. And I try to for me my best moments are in the morning. So I try to block my mornings out for for deeper study and thinking. And I'm not sure how you operate, but my mind kind of works back and forth. I I don't just stay in in a certain kind of mode of study. My my brain quickly starts going to I'm starting to think about how this applies to my life and man, what do my church need right now from this text? So I'll often be writing those kind of notes down at the same time and just how does this intersect with with my life? I try not to move too quickly there, because I don't want my, you know, my I I don't want the the the application of the text to determine the meaning of the text. I want it to be the other way around. Yes. But but I just find my brain works like that. I kind of f toggle back and forth between those two realities, kinda, you know, in real time.

speaker-1: I love that. You used a word that maybe if if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've heard me use the word exegesis. But when you're saying exegesis and exegete, let's not assume that everybody knows what that means. You you've you've actually explained it by going through the exercise, but but how would you summarize what you mean by exegesis?

speaker-0: Yeah, I would just say that that's that's about going back to the original text, though the the original Greek or Hebrew and mining that, getting the understanding of the text from the text itself. So we don't want to impose meaning on the text. We want to discover and uncover the meaning of the text. That's what exegesis is. It's just mining the text for all of its gold, making sure that we we understand the meaning so that we can move towards understanding how it applies to our life. and that's what I would call the exposition of the text. You you when you exposit it, you're you're moving from that the mining the gold into packaging it and explaining it in a way then that is relevant, that intersects with the lives of real people and is applicable. You're pressing the text into people's hearts because you understand the meaning of the text.

speaker-1: I love that. And and you it's appropriate, as you said, to read this ancient text and to begin to think about how does this apply to my life? How does this apply to the church? But don't you think that we can get out of order on that? If we try to bring our lives and our modern relevance to the text, it can sometimes cloud our vision of what the original author intended to the original audience, what what what the argument from the text itself is. actually is. I in fact I I had a meeting recently with somebody who was wrestling with some very difficult concepts that we have to face in life. And I was just encouraging him, don't start with the application and the circumstances. Start with does God what does God's word actually say and have that be your foundation that you can then build into the application because both go together. And I love what you said is the the kind of ping ponging back and forth between exegesis and extracting the meaning. To exposition of bringing it to bear on our lives. do you find that that is also the case when you're studying God's word on your own? So let's let's take Ian the pastor and and lay that profession aside and and talk about Ian, the follower and pursuer of Christ. You talked about how you're you're reading Philippians devotionally. So how do you take this exegesis exposition without getting too technical? as a follower of Christ is you're just marinating in a text and abiding in Christ in your personal life.

speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's that's really the key to everything. I think even good good study, it's it's about letting the text do a work in you. So like I said, I like to sit, I like to pray over it, and I like to really you know, you're you're exegeting a text, but really you're allowing the text to exegete your life. And and I think so good. I think we need to we need to let the text you know, the word of God's like a mirror, right? That that shows us not only the holiness of God, but it shows us Our own sin, it shows us where we fall short of the glory of God. So I I think the best preaching always comes from a place where you have been deeply impacted by the text itself. it's actually easy to study a text. It's easy to get a text right. every pastor knows that. It's it's easy to get the content right. It's far more difficult to be deeply impacted by the text. And I think a lot of Christians struggle with this. We all we all do. We can all come to the word of God and It's like we're trying to tick the box. Look, we've just we've sat in God's word, we've been in God's word, and then we move on with our day. But God's word has really not been stored up in our heart, hasn't sat in us long enough to do something to us. So, you know, and I don't do this perfectly. In fact, I I had this often a struggle for me, but I I try my best to sit in the text until the text is start starts to do something in me. I start to pray that God would open my eyes to see things and to to respond to things. the way I ought to. So I think we need to hear the the default to for preachers is to maybe move towards exegeting our church before we exegete our own heart. Yeah. I want I want the text to impact me. And so when I get them preached to to God's people, I want them to hear like this isn't just for you. This is what God this is for me. This is what God is doing in me through this text. And it's some that's the best place to preach from because it's humbling. Yeah. Deeply humbling. And it And it it reminds to you know, i i anybody who wants to teach every Christian is called to teach to make disciples in some way. Right.

speaker-1: That's right.

speaker-0: But you you can't teach people not really, you can't teach people deeply if you're not letting God teach you deeply. So you gotta let the word do its work.

speaker-1: Amen. One of the things people often say though is that the Bible's hard to understand. So can you think of just one or two tools that yes, the word of God is where we should start? That's where we should anchor. But if if you find somebody that's just maybe just reading through Philippians and saying, I just don't get it. Are are there any tools that you think are accessible that you might want to have on your coffee table next to you that if you do get stuck or you just need a little help, anything that you would recommend?

speaker-0: Yeah, I think a good, you know, devotional or expositional commentary is helpful. I think the easiest tool for most people to get a hold of is a good study Bible. I I love the the Zonderban Biblical Theology Study Bible is fantastic. the ESV study bible is one that I I recommend often. one of the the tools that I've been using recently, there's a new, it's a little it's called a connecting the testaments, new testament. And it's a great little resource that helps you see how the New Testament is really linked to grounded in the Old Testament. So it shows you where there's allusions and direct quotes and things like that. I think that's a great little resource that I'm I'm recommending more and more on as well.

speaker-1: I'll look for it and see if we can put the link in the notes. So you guys can you all can see as listeners that when he and I get together, we love to talk. And it's just you can hear it's it's it's gold. but I would love for you to just walk us through Romans 16, a a passage that maybe when you're reading it devotionally, you might want to skip through. But you said something before we we went live that you said it's an awesome text. Share with us the awesomeness of Romans 16, one through 16.

speaker-0: Yeah, I was I was reading it again in preparation for our time and I I pulled up my my sermon from this passage that I preached years ago now. I think it was probably five years ago that I preached this text, but I just remember this being such an amazing text. You know, sometimes what I find is that the text that you're quick to jump over or s or move past are filled with some of the the richest truth. Well and are actually they're actually so impactful. So I I I love this passage. I I when I preach this, I call this the dedicated church. And you know, it's it's it's a list of people that Paul is greeting at the end of of Rome. I remember reading one commentator, I believe it was a commentator who said that, you know, we don't know a whole lot about the church of Rome, but this one section he said is a sociological gold mine. and I thought that was brilliant. Yes. I mean, he just walks through all of these individuals that have been doing ministry with him. And one of the things I love about this passage is that he's just simply acknowledging that you know, Paul's not a one man show, that the Church of Jesus Christ is much bigger than Paul. And it's a body, it's a family, and it requires a lot of what I would just say are ordinary, average people. To be involved in the work of the ministry and that that is the normative way that God designs the church to function. So I think this passage is fantastic. I think it's it's interesting. There's so many interesting comments that Paul makes about individuals there. And what I found is that as you read this, it really it really can be kind of a reflection of of every church, or should be in many ways. the the people that it takes, the work that it takes, and and the power of God's spirit that is required to be the church of Jesus Christ. So I think it's a fantastic section.

speaker-1: You see a lot of names and so i and the typical rhythm is he'll say, Greet Ian, and then he'll give something like a a personal testimony, or and and you can push back if you saw it differently, but there there are a few names where it seems like like the the additional insight that he provides may mean that either he didn't know them, maybe just by way of a a second hand testimony, or he didn't have a whole lot of information about them. But it but it seems like everybody, either by their name Or by his his comments about them. He has some knowledge about them. So how did you go about this preparing? And then how how would somebody though who is doing a devotional that just sees a lot of names? Because there's other areas of the Bible where there are lots of names. How did you just go about moving beyond, wow, there's a list of a lot of names and Paul says something about it to to actually start to dig into it and extract some treasures?

speaker-0: Well, I think I think the first thing is you you want to figure out if if Paul has spoken about any of these individuals before. Like is there context where we can understand who some of these individuals are? And I think there's there's a handful that that certainly seem to appear in other places. So you can get some better context that these were ministry partners, people who labored with Paul or on behalf of Paul. Some of them he knew, like you said, some of them he didn't. But I think the real goal in a lot of this is understanding what Paul says about the individuals. It's not just that he greets them is He's commending them. And as he commends them, he is recognizing certain aspects of their faith and their faithfulness that are worthy of being commended. And so, you know, you can read this as just a simple description of the kind of people who serve Paul, or you can read this as, hey, these are these are the kind of characteristics that should characterize my life. So when he talks about, you know, Mary who worked hard for you. Like I he I I'm like the question that I naturally ask is this would that would that be something that somebody says about me that I've worked hard for Christ, for the church? you know, you know, he's got two names in there in verse 12. I think there's by the way, the the way he acknowledges women in this passage is remarkable. So often Paul is is viewed, especially in liberal progressive circles, r as being against women. I don't know if there's a passage that tells you that Paul is more for women than anything. sorry. He acknowledges, you know, there's three women he mentions as two of them might be sisters. By the way, their names are interesting. Their their names mean delicate and dainty. I don't know if if you you probably picked up on that. but the irony is that here's here's delicate and dainty who are known for working hard. They're they're they're strength. So I just think that I love how what we see in this passage is this it it's That it's not just one individual, it's not just men, there's women involved, there's there's couples involved. You know, that ministry is done by everybody. And so I it forces us to ask, you know, like what what what am I doing with what I have? How am I known? So that's where you see that transition as you're uncovering, like, what is he commending? What is he acknowledging? What is he highlighting? It then becomes really easy to c kind of ask the same questions about ourselves. Is this who I am? What would what would people say if Paul was writing, this is a great question maybe to ask about a passage like this. If Paul was writing to our church and he was greeting people and commending people, what would he say about Ian Hales? Jeff Terror? What would he say about you? And and I think I think it's good to examine ourselves and to say, are are we people that Paul would have likely said, Hey, you're doing you're doing great. You're working so hard. Like I'm so encouraged by what you're doing. Or would we be left off the list because we're nowhere to be seen in serving the church?

speaker-1: If you're listening and not watching the video, you you've missed this, but you'll notice that as Ian's been unpacking this, I've just folded my my arms because it's like the the gesture of let the man cook. And you can hear how he is so pastoral, but but not at the expense of what does the text actually say? Mining the the gold from the text and then transitioning that to practical, relevant application. Brother, this is this is gold. And I wish we had more time. You're definitely going to be a guest. In a future episode. But brother, thank you, thank you for your faithfulness. Thank you for wetting our appetite for a passage that might be overlooked to be mined for gospel gold and not just for facts, but also for it washing over us and impacting our souls, brother. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time. So appreciate your friendship and and definitely love you, bro.

speaker-0: Likewise, brother, thanks for having me. Love you, love your family, love your church. May God bless you.

speaker-1: Amen. Well, hey, listener, thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode. We'll put some links in the show notes to let you take this great content and take it even further as you study God's word, looking for a better understanding of his character, our human condition, and God's plan for redemptive history. Thanks so much for listening.