Mayflower Mortgage: so I'll throw a knock on ⁓ the building itself. So located in it's in Mason Mills, isn't And it's it two listed, the the building itself?

Michael Brett: Yeah, so it's like 1782, the original plant. We are based in the new extension, which was 1911. Grade two style listed. It's hydro powered, so the entire site is hydroelectric. Has been powered by the water since it was built. That's the reason for its location and the drive of innovation. I think that's one of the big things for us is the center is start of the industrial revolution. That's where all the innovation began in the world. And so for us to bring this center that is the new innovation and the new revolution of products and services and ways of doing stuff and technology, it's just that is kind of a sweet story of this is where it began. This is where we've got to. And the irony

Mayflower Mortgage: Yep. And now the move. Move towards sustainable construction going forward and

Michael Brett: Yeah, completely. And the irony around it is obviously it's the most unsustainable, unpassive house building you could possibly have. Not one piece of insulation in it, 144, six foot single glazed windows that's just like blowing a gale from one side to the other. But it kind of just ties into like, this is where we began 200 years ago and this is the houses that we build now. it's... Again, I love a good story and the building itself tells a story. It's got so much history and so much character. It's just, if there was nothing else in there, it's a stunning place to just come and have a look at.

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah. I mean I've I've lucky enough to have sort of seen it or, you know, been in there already and it's a great contrast between the the sort of the old and the new and you've got this this sor the historic building with and even got I don't know what it is like a ho like the machinery sort of in the centre is on the f on the first floor, second floor. And then you've got, you know, passive house, eco, you know, ventilation, heat form, you've got it all surrounding this sort of like industrial building. It is absolutely ⁓ Fantastic. And nice little segue on sort of what makes this centre different. Because there's plenty of showrooms in construction. I'm sure nearly every listener's been around a thousand. But this is very different. It feels very different. So how would you sort of describe the experience when someone comes into milestone? It's you know, when they walk through the doors, what do they what do they get?

Michael Brett: So since we first had the idea, what we've always said is we want it to be an experience. We want it to be an immersive showroom where it's not just the internet in a room. can, you can look at things online all you want. We want people to see and feel and hear the products because everybody's heard of air source heat pumps and solar panels and MVHR and all these things that go into your property to make it great. But what's it actually like living in them houses? What's it like sitting outside on the patio with an air-saurce heat pump blowing? What does it feel like, sound like? Because we fit plenty now. And people's expectations of it are very different to the reality most of the time. So we want people to come in and be able to like go, ⁓ that's what that one sounds like. That's what this one sounds like. That's what a window and door feels like. Big sliding doors. ⁓ they're a bit heavy. Actually, they're not. if they're built properly. And it's them kind of things that we want people to understand, which is why the education is a massive part of what we're doing. It's not just here's some stuff I'm going to try and sell you stuff. We want to teach homeowners, architects, builders about the products and about the systems that the houses are being built out of. Because once you understand it, it allows you to make more informed decisions. You can tell whether if you're going to £50,000 on windows. or 90,000 pounds on windows, what that difference is and why you're going to do it. And that's what we want the building to be like. It's immersive, it's a discovery, it's educational. And it's, the idea is that it feels like home. So hence the name home by milestone. We want people to come in and see segments of their house, whether it's a foundation product or a roofing product or a kitchen or anything in between. We want you to be able to feel and experience it. So hopefully allow you to make them informed decisions to what you're building your houses out of.

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah, and it's not just seeing the products in isolation either. You get to see everything, how everything works together in like a real home environment and you know, like everything from renewable energy systems, smart home technologies, sustainable materials and like you said, foundations to to windows and doors, it's all all in the one place. ⁓ bringing it back a little bit to sort of the the passive house side of things. I know you're I sort of aligned with those passive house principles and that's one of the the drivers for the centre. Passive house is something that hearing more and more in the industry. So for listeners who may not fully understand it, could you give a little bit of a sort of passive house explanation? So what it would mean. Not passive house individually, but that eco that eco build. And what are you what are you aiming for with passive house?

Michael Brett: Yeah, so Passive House, it's an energy efficiency standard is how I usually describe it to a layman. There's five key elements of it and I'm going to put myself on the spot here and try and remember it. But it's basically air tightness, insulation, ventilation and two others, which I should know from the top of my head. But that puts me onto what Passive House actually means to me. ⁓ because the science behind it and the physics behind it is fascinating if you're into that kind of stuff. ⁓ But when I started getting into it, it blew me mind over how we used to build and how we can build, which is the Passive House way. But what I realized very quickly is the quality of the workmanship that's required to build a Passive House. Now, it's not more laborious, it's not more... men on site is not more money per se, it's the attention to detail that you have to put into every part of the building and how that is quality checked and recorded. So for someone building their own house, even if the near zero bills and the sustainable side of it isn't that important to you, I'd always strive to go for passive house because of the quality of the build that you get. And that's what sets it apart for me. Obviously I'm from a trade background, not academic, physics or anything else, all that kind of stuff. I'm all about the quality of the building. And once I discovered Passive House, I realized that all them years I've moaned about people cutting corners and doing stuff wrong. And why do we build it like that? And the worst saying in the world is because that's how it's always been done. I hate that saying and you get that a lot in the trade. But with passive health, can't use any of that. And that's what I love about it, is that quality.

Mayflower Mortgage: It's a benchmark, isn't it? It's not a barrier to the sort of keeping costs lower. It is a it's a benchmark to strive for and that that gold standard. And if you don't get it, you're still gonna get that ethos in your project and the results are the same.

Michael Brett: 100 % Yeah, that's it. Yeah. If you, if you aim for it and some things are more expensive. you've got your triple glazed windows and you've got your thermal breaks that you need to get in there and, and VHR systems. These things you can not put in if you do certain things in other way, save money if that's important. But if you strive for the quality of a passive house build and the tradespeople that come in to do that, you know that at the end of it, you're going to have a really high quality home. And that's the key for me. And I think if everybody aimed for that, Passive House would become more and more normal and more and more affordable, which would just raise the industry as a whole, which I think is just fantastic and what we're trying to do at Home by Marston.

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah, I agree. And we we see it from a finance perspective as well, that more lenders and they're becoming more receptive to energy efficient builds, particularly where that sort of long-term running costs are demonstratably lower. So the lower we can demonstrate those those running costs, and if they're going for the passive house, that eco build, you know, lenders are now getting it more into their their line of thinking that they can push the affordability based on those running costs are not as high as a brick and block and it it all it all ties in. And I think the eco method and passive house, you know, it's gonna become more and more popular and I think it's the right way to go.

Michael Brett: Definitely, it's the only way to go. mean, the building regs are catching up. Scotland's bringing in passive houses, building regulation standard. Europe have been building this way for a lot longer than us. It's only going one way and we want to be ahead of that curve and making, accelerate the adoption of passive house standards, eco housing and sustainable building.

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah. I mean one of the challenges we see with self board clients is decision making is obviously really difficult when you're starting off a project and you've got all these sort of options to you, all the different roads to go down. And then decisions sort of kind of being made a little bit too late, whether it's structure, heating systems, insulation strategy. How does Help Home by Millstone help people get ahead of that that curve? So in terms of education early in the process. helping avoid design conflicts, gives a little bit more around how someone coming to that centre will help that decision making.

Michael Brett: Just start the first question again.

Mayflower Mortgage: ⁓ sorry. So one of the common challenges we see when ⁓ self-build clients sort of are that start of their journey, it's making decisions and if they make decisions too late, whether it's structure, heating systems, insulation, it can have sort of a knock on effect. One from a finance point of view, but obviously for the the project itself. So so how can Milt Home by Milestone sort of help people get ahead of that curve by visiting the showroom and having that visceral touch, feel, see here? Experience.

Michael Brett: Yep. So for us, that's, that's where we've got two elements that help with that. One is the education side. So people, including architects, there's lots of fantastic architects out there, but you only know what, well, you don't know what you don't know, as the saying goes. So we want to educate everybody on what an NVHR system actually means to a house and what other elements you have to put in alongside that. We want to educate people on where the thermal brakes are in the house, because all that accounts to heat loss. And once you get that education, you can understand what needs to go into a building to achieve the design or the standard that you're after. And then we can put a price to it. And the way Home by Marston works is the ground floor, which was the last floor that we took, has become our collaboration space. So we've got a cafe down there, social space, but we've also got... ⁓ audio visual equipment down there so architects can come and sit around the table with the clients, with the suppliers and the providers upstairs and talk about all these elements and price them into the job at the very beginning. I've been in this game a long time. I don't think I've ever done a job where there's not been changes and design changes halfway through a project either because it becomes unbuildable, unbuildable, is that even a word? It can be now, or unaffordable. And it's like, we'll put a generic triple glazed windows and then we're making them decisions halfway through a project. They'll put windows in without trickle vents, which then requires an NBHR system that adds another 20, 30 grand onto a job, which if all them decisions were made and people understood what all them decisions meant at the beginning, we'd avoid all them issues down the line. And that's obviously when... Cost starts spiraling, people start getting paid off and it's like relationships break down and designs are going back and forth to architects. All costs more money. So what we're saying is to everyone to just like, before you've got your design, before you've gone to building regs, before you've done all that, come and have a look at all the elements of what you can build your house from and pick what's important to you. So if sustainability is more important to you. You might move away from concrete products and you'll go for timber frame products and paper or wool insulation as opposed to PIR. If it's space and cost efficiency, then you might go for a slimmer wall with a PIR insulation that gives you more space. So all of them decisions, we find out what's important to the client, then get all them elements together, then price it up so you know exactly what these things are going to cost. then make all your changes. Make all the changes on the paper before I get up to my knees in mud. And then we start moving stuff around because that just doesn't work. it just causes chaos. One of the big things we said, the biggest issue in this industry across all the builders that I speak to, across all the architects that I speak to, is disconnection. So disconnection between the design team, the supply team, the client, the builder. everyone's doing their own bit, they're not doing it together. And we're solving that issue by bringing in the collaboration and getting everybody to do them conversations and meetings at the very, very beginning. And if you do that, we've proven it on a couple of jobs already. It's just a game changer for any product, any project.

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah. And the centre enables that early stage planning, doesn't it? It's got that early stage planning, the hands-on learning, and you can have conversations with all the experts in in one place. And that collaboration is not just collaboration between client and architect. It's not just, you know, us as the finance. One of the reasons why, you know, we're really excited to be, you know, a partnership with with the centre is

Michael Brett: Exactly.

Mayflower Mortgage: It's all there. We can speak to those, you know, if someone wants to do something on a project, like you said, with a ventilation or heat source pump or anything on those sort of lines, we have that partnership with the other. sort of people in the centre to go to them, they can come to us. The cost is all sorted out up front. There's no surprises later on. We can speak to them. They can speak to us in terms of how you want the project to be to be funded. Again, when in projects you need certain amounts being released. Again, you've got that again, I keep going back to collaboration, but it avoids the design conflicts and it makes everything run smoothly from the finance to the to the build itself.

Michael Brett: It does. And we're building relationships. So the people that are coming in are already working together, passing work between themselves, recommending each other. And when an issue crops up, which it will do, you know, the people that you're dealing with. And that's what we want to build is a center. We're looking at having 80 to 90 people in that center that will all understand each other's products, understand how they work, understand the pricing and how they mix together. And for you as our finance partner, it just... gives you a sense of trust and know that everybody there is capable of what they're doing and what they're saying is right and then that gives you freedom to make financial decisions with the client based on the relationships that you've built and that's I think is what is really special about it is the people and the relationships that have been formed.

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah. And it's not it's not an email trail to s you you need to speak to this person and you need to get in contact with them to help us. It's a Jack's over there or whoever. Go and have a chat with him, you know, walk over, you know, and we can walk between its first name terms and and that that's how it works. And it it makes everything so much easier when everyone's on the same page, everyone's got that relationship, working for each other, you know, pushing each other's companies, projects and yeah.

Michael Brett: Yeah. Exactly.

Mayflower Mortgage: just makes it yep. Simplicity, s you know, simplicity within building, everything you don't want any of these challenges to come in and anything it's stressful enough building a house. So if you can have everybody from finance to to materials working from the same page.

Michael Brett: Yeah, well, we've we've said from the beginning, I'm agree. Yeah. And we've, we've said it from the beginning. We're working on the three P's. So people, principles and product. want good people that we can have a chat with, work with, have a laugh with. We've got to have good principles. So our principles are putting people first building for wellness, these ⁓ ethics that are core values and we live in standby. want people in the building to share them. So the people that coming in aren't just selling you stuff. They want to build better houses. They want to create new innovative products. They actually care about what they're doing. And then the product, you can have be a great guy and have great principles, but if your product's a bit rubbish, then you can't have your way because again, the products are what are being built. it's, and although there's 80 people, 80 businesses in the building, it's my name above that door. And so I've got to recommend everybody that comes in. So. I don't know how you got in Jack,

Mayflower Mortgage: Traded on the Mayflower name. Alf an add on.

Michael Brett: ⁓ Just to be clear on this podcast, it's Mayflower mortgages that we're recommending.

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah, I'm not allowed anywhere near it but Yeah, that's it. I've got to sit outside and and look at the building. ⁓ well, I was gonna bring me on to sort of who's the centre for, so that's I know who touched on it, but if you entered passive house, but it's not just passive house that the the centre is for. It's broader than that, isn't it? It's ⁓ sort of it's for all types of projects, but it gives you an accessibility of the concept of the eco, but it can be for everybody. It is relevant for everyone across the board, self-builders, renovators, developers, architects, anyone in the industry, sort of start to finish. And it's it focuses on that progress towards better homes, not just individual projects in isolation. It is a lot broader than that.

Michael Brett: Yeah, 100%. I mean, if we narrowed down to nobody's allowed in unless you're building a 2 million pound passive house, then we'd be pretty dead, to be honest. But what we're saying is we're the passive house center of excellence. So we want to educate people and bring passive house to the mainstream. That's not an overnight job. But what we also want to do there is say, right, this is kind of the gold standard that you should aim for. But if you don't have a massive plot and you're just putting a kitchen extension on,

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah.

Michael Brett: then this is the best kind of kitchen extension you can do. And these are the things that you should be looking at during that extension. So air tightness, thermal breaks, damp proofing, all these elements of building it. We're just teaching people, right, here's your project, whether it's multi-million pound project or a 30,000 pound refurb. This is the best thing for you. And we're not in it to sell products to anybody. People are there to do that, but it's about saying, here's the best you can get for the money you've got. And that's why we have Passive House certified products, lots of them, but then we have alternatives as well. So if you're coming and you're like, I've heard of Passive House and I like it, but I can't afford triple glazed windows. I can't get an NVHR system into my house because it's an old stone cottage like this place I'm in. Okay, that's fine. So this is what you need to do instead. And this is what elements you can have. And this is how you do the best. project for the budget and that's what we want to do. So anybody who's whether they're building their own house, whether they're a block of flats, or whether you're doing a small extension or a refurb, come down and see us and we'll give you as much advice and education as we possibly can. And hopefully you'll go away better informed and buy some products off our suppliers, maybe even get a or two.

Mayflower Mortgage: Yeah. Maybe get a mortgage or two. Yeah, you need to fund it somehow. So that's where we come in. I mean, yeah, if someone's visiting you know the centre, you know, they're not just seeing products and ideas in in isolation. They've got access to the financial experts in terms of ourselves, but they've got f access to experts in every area, whether it's installation, they have the physical materials. And we see it, you know, time and time again. People coming to us where a lot of their projects have sort of fallen behind in terms of finance or sort of you know on falling down because of decision making, because of not having that fluidity between the the different parts of their their project. And that's where we recommend going to the center, having a look around, talking to everybody there, whether it's you know exactly what you're going for or not, go have a look around. You know, it'll impact every part of your project, you design, the build, Finance, every part is in the centre. It's a and it's in Matlock, which is beautiful. So it's a great day out. Regardless. So

Michael Brett: That is a great destination. it's not a nip and have half an hour looking at some windows. It's half a day, full day out. Come and see everything you need to see, learn everything you need to learn and then go for a nice walk in countryside, get your fish and chips down in Matlock Bath. And yeah, live the dream.

Mayflower Mortgage: I mean we'll put all the the links to the centre. ⁓ obviously we'll be doing some marketing jointly and individually sort of going out as well about the centre. But yeah, the links ⁓ will be in the podcast ⁓ below. We'll have everything on there. Before we sort of head off, looking ahead, Michael, where do you see the self build market going over the next five to ten years? Is it do you think that this the energy efficiency, the low carbon homes is is the driver? Moving forward.

Michael Brett: I think it's only going one way. Energy efficiency is probably the key driver. We all know what's going on in the world and energy prices going through the roof. So anything we can do to reduce that long term, I think is massive because people, they're not spending this kind of money on building out their own houses and renovating their own houses to then sell it. It's built... ⁓ One of our key forces to build for wellness, whether that's a new build house or a renovation, if you can build a healthy house that you live in, I think it's a long term investment. And if you can do that and reduce the energy bills and everything else, then it just ticks all them boxes and makes the upfront investment worth it long term, because you're going to save that money longer term. ⁓ So yeah, I think it's only ever, it's only going that way and there's no chance now of us ever going back. Because once you see it, you can't unsee it. And that's what blew my mind with the passive app. And I did the tradesman's course. Once I saw what air tightness does and what thermal brakes do, like I I've been doing this a long time and I never understood this stuff because I've never been taught it. But once I saw it, there's no going back. When I teach new tradesman it, they're like, there's no going back. So the more people we can educate and teach about this stuff, they're not going to go. Sounds good, but I'm gonna go and do this because that's how it's always been done That's just not gonna happen now. I think and we've we've hit that tipping point where Everybody's starting to hear about it from government level down to apprentices Everyone's starting to like what's that? What's that? And now we're moving that way. So yes, it's it's gonna be Well, like it's gonna be building regs future home standards coming in Scotland have already taken on Passive House, it's only a matter of time before we do it down here and once that happens everybody needs to be on board and that's what we're trying to do now is trying to get them on board before they're forced into it.

Mayflower Mortgage: Absolutely brilliant. ⁓ so much value in what you're looking to do. And yeah, a great education, greater transparity, just bringing it all together and pushing that that eco into us. I think you're right. When when people sort of learn about passive house, sort of the eco build, it becomes becomes an obsession and people tend to like, this is it now, this is this is what we're going for. and again, that's what the centre's for, helping people make decisions. early on and giving them the experience of the technology that's you know is relatively new to the market and they can learn, touch, feel, and hopefully incorporate it into their their projects as well. ⁓ as I said, we'll put links to the to the centre in the show notes. We'll put a link to the website obviously as well. Urge everyone to go on, have a look, learn about the centre and visit it. But that's it for today for the ⁓ Self Builders podcast. Hopefully listeners found it useful. Michael, thank you so much for for coming on. ⁓ if my law back in, we'll meet up for a coffee soon.