Rachel Hester: Hey guys, I just wanted to interrupt quick to give a shout out to our sponsor, the North America Dairy Sheep Association. Natsa is open to any sheep breed or crossed use for milking purposes. Natsa supports dairy shepherds and is elevating dairy standards in sheep in America. Natsa now offers a Milk Star program, has sanctioned dairy sheep shows, and is now offering a breed up program. Want to know more about dairy sheep? Did you know that I write books on the topic? There is my big book, which is published by Sawdust Publishing and is available on my website or Amazon and sawdustpublishing.com. In this volume, The Guide to Homestead Dairy Sheep, you will find everything I wished I knew when I first started raising dairy sheep. I feature other dairy shepherds and go into detail on topics like different breeds for milking, parasite management, milk sharing with lambs. Welcome back to the wooly way. And today, Liv and I are actually going to discuss our brand new breeding up program that NADSA is starting this year in 2026. So it's a little odd. feel like saying, Liv, thank you for coming to the show whenever we do it, just you and me. But it's like, I mean, you are the show with me now, so that's not appropriate. So. speaker-0: Welcome to the wooly way of podcast specifically for dairy shepherds. is folks wanting to raise sheep for the purpose of harvesting milk. I'm your host, Rachel. Thanks so much for listening to the Woolly Way Podcast. speaker-1: We hope you enjoyed our episode and have gleaned at least one tip you can implement in your flock right away. If you like what you heard, please hit the subscribe button. And if you wouldn't mind, leave us a review. This helps others find our podcast so that they can enjoy learning about dairy sheep along with you. The Woolly Way podcast is a production of Whoopsy Daisy Farm and Crafty Fox Bakers. For updates and information about our show, follow us on Facebook or Instagram. and I'm Liv Fox. We cover all things pertaining to raising dairy sheep here via animal nutrition, housing, health care, lambing tips, cheese making, and even some butchery and fiber arts. speaker-0: After all, if you raise dairy sheep, you are going to have wool, and if your operation is successful, you'll eventually have surplus lambs to decide what to do with. Liv Fox: Right? Right? I know. Well, and sometimes it's like we just, we talk to each other almost every day anyway. So it's like, we interviewing other? But that's fine. ⁓ Rachel Hester: You can become a member or get more information by going to the website www.northamericadarysheep.org or you can email the association at northamericadarysheep.com We are so thankful to Natsa for sponsoring this podcast and helping bring more resources to the dairy sheep community. Stay tuned for future podcast episodes how to set your flock up for the best lambing and therefore milking season possible, I briefly discussed digestion and nutrition of sheep. Since writing this book, folks have asked me questions about more nuanced topics, so I have begun writing ebooks that are topic specific that you can purchase on my website and receive as an instant download and print at your convenience. Currently we have, Bringing Your New Sheep Home. speaker-1: Ethical animal husbandry is the focus here, as well as sustainable agriculture. We want to provide you with the information you need to start and continue your dairy sheep operation in the best way possible for you, your sheep, and the amazing world we live in. speaker-0: Subscribe to our YouTube and email list and look us up at whoopsydaisyfarm.com to find both. Have a particular guest you'd like us to host or a topic you'd like us to cover? Fill out our contact form on our website or shoot us an email at whoopsydaisyfarm.gmail.com. See you next time! So grab a nice cup of sheet milk and let's dive in. Rachel Hester: which explains in detail our step-by-step method of introducing new dairy sheep onto your homestead and getting them used to you as their shepherd. Since there are currently no dairy specific hair breed sheep available, dairy shepherds will have to shear their sheep annually and then decide what to do with their wool. Wool has a lot of misconceptions surrounding it and I want to help shepherds understand that it is a commodity and not a burden. So I wrote my other ebook, Five Uses of Wool in the Homestead, which is designed to give you practical ideas where we talk to NADSA board members about what NADSA is trying to accomplish in America for the dairy sheep community. on how to utilize this amazing product around your homestead the second you shear it off your sheep. The ebooks are only available on my website at www.wipsydaisyfarm.com All right, I digress. So with all that being said, us two old ladies are going to talk about the breeding up program as a new cutting edge thing in the sheep world. We can handle sheep cutting edge stuff. can't handle computer cutting edge stuff. start off with define a breeding up program because ⁓ know when I was writing my book, I that like, you know, there's sheep in a breeding up program and the editors were like, Liv Fox: Yes. Yes. Yes. Y-yes. Rachel Hester: You need to use the official word, official term for this. I'm like, no, that is the official term is breeding up programs. So, ⁓ you know, what is it? Why do we have it? Take it away. Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, yeah, so a breed up program in general is typically happening because there are not a lot of pure known purebreds available in the industry ⁓ there are people out there who are wanting to achieve purebred status in their flock with several generations of breeding. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: to purebred animals. so technically if you... Rachel Hester: Well, actually, let's let's go back one more step. Let's go back one more step. Let's define what is a pure bread and like, isn't there a difference between pure bread and full blood sheep or animals as well? Or is that just more of a persnickety hankiness of the industry? Liv Fox: So that's more like hankiness. So know there are breed associations out there that if you are breeding up to a purebred they're not giving you, they're not calling the animal a purebred. They're gonna call it a fullbred, I think is what they have labeled it as. ⁓ Just because. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: Even if you keep breeding the offspring to purebred animals, technically it would, it will never be a purebred because it'll have, know, like 0.00001 of whatever breed or breeds that... Yes, they're going to get very dilute over time. Rachel Hester: Right, right, right. Those still have the genetics of what you crossed it with. Liv Fox: Whereas technically a quote unquote purebred is like it should it's 100 % of whatever breed it is. ⁓ So I will say NADSA we are not differentiating between. Rachel Hester: Okay. Yeah. Well, okay. Sorry. Let's go back one more step. Let's go back one more step. What is a breed? maybe we should define what is a breed first and foremost. And then we get into why you, know, what, do you get a breed? Cause I feel like that actually might be where a lot of the confusion lies with people wanting to engage in a breed up program. let's, let's just define really fast. Liv Fox: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Rachel Hester: For those of us who forgot or failed biology or didn't pay attention or skip that class, what is a breed and why do we care about breeds? Liv Fox: Yeah, yeah, yes. And I guess that's a good thing for you to point out because I have worked in the animal science field for so long and like that's what I studied when I went to college. I just kind of take that for granted and assume everybody knows this. So a breed, and this is for like any is something... that has been developed over a long period of time by breeders who have selected for certain characteristics, whether typically, well, always appearance, but it could be like personality, meat breed sheep, like those have been selected for hundreds of years to get a specific qualities and traits that those breeders want. Rachel Hester: And then. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: Typically you'll find breeds are developed in certain regions or areas because they're adapted to that environment. all that to say breeds of any species are something that have been specifically selected and bred for for a long period of time that when you also are making those breeding selections you can replicate Rachel Hester: And. Okay. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: traits in the offspring. And when they would have offspring that don't meet those traits, they would cull them, whether it's they eat them or they just ⁓ sterilize so that they can't reproduce or just not use them for breeding. They have been selected very hard for a very long time for certain traits. Does that make sense? Rachel Hester: Okay. Yeah. So yes, that's an excellent explanation. And I do want to point out in my nerdy homeschool history buff brain, I don't know that humans in agriculture really cared about breed specifics until mid to late 18th century. Like the whole concept of a breed and a breed standard As far as our records show, you know, unless they discover a cuneiform tablet in archeology next year or something crazy like that. mean, breed specifics are a fairly new phenomenon in agriculture. Doesn't make that a bad thing. Just, I think that's important because, you know, with the regenerative sustainable agriculture movement and whatnot. There's some confusion on, I think, livestock management when people don't understand breeds and what they were selectively bred for and why those breeds are there. for example, I can treat my Gulf Coast native sheep drastically different than my East region sheep because the Gulf Coast breed was developed through pure survival textbook evolutionary practices ⁓ ⁓ were dropped off in the American South. Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Right. Rachel Hester: And the Spaniard said, may the best man win and may the odds always be in your favor. And those sheep said, thank you very much. And they survived. You know, the, the look, the right, right, right. And so they've got, you know, very libertarian personalities. and you know, they're, they're just. Liv Fox: Right, natural selection at its finest. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: If I have a problem child who's not, you know, like trying to die, but trying to make my life interesting, it's the Gulf Coast. And it's not the, you know, they're basically goats. They just haven't got the memo, their sheep. mean, they're constantly wanting to move on. They're trying to escape. They're trying to do all these things because they're looking for different forage and whatever is going on in their sheepy brain. The ones that are giving me the health issues are typically the dairy crosses because those sheep were bred for milk production, temperament, fleece. Liv Fox: You Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: not necessarily their survival instincts. so... ⁓ Liv Fox: Right, well, and through that, because they're a dairy animal, they're used to being, having a lot of human interaction. So with that, intensely managed. Rachel Hester: Right, right, right. And that's not a bad thing, but I'm not going to raise my dairy crosses or interact with them the same way I will with my Gulf Coast natives. mean, if I have a Gulf Coast native sheep and she's a crappy mom, some form or fashion. If my dairy crosses aren't being a really great mom, I'm ⁓ do a little bit more Sherlock Holmesing of like, why is this the case? Are you deficient in something? What's going on just because Liv Fox: No. Right. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: They were bred for different things than getting pregnant, dropping them no assistant, raising them within three months and then repeating the cycle. So point of all this bunny trail is up until the mid 18th century, farmers didn't really care about the details that we do now because I don't think they had the leisure or the affluence. Typically they were just trying to make it through winter. So they were keeping the animals that had the... Go ahead. Liv Fox: Right, well, and I- I think they were selecting for traits that worked for them. So they were doing it without realizing they were doing it, whether it was essentially if you wanted to label it, like their farm had a particular, their own breed, ⁓ which in today's society, would not be considered a breed. But you know what I mean? ⁓ Rachel Hester: Yes. Yes. Yes. Race, race, race. Yeah, no, exactly. if you look at, yeah. Right, like if you look at the founding fathers journals, like Thomas Jefferson or George Washington, I mean, you can see in their journals what they'll say. I went to such and such country and I wanted their style of animals because of these reasons. You know, I wanted ⁓ the Tunis people are gonna get mad at me as either Jefferson or Washington brought the Tunis sheep from Tunisia because they wanted certain traits that the Tunis sheep. Liv Fox: They were doing it without realizing they're doing it. Now we're focusing on doing it. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: displayed that was different from the South Downs that they had imported from England at that point. So there were ⁓ breeds that there was a specific style of sheep from a particular farm or particular region that had adapted due to ⁓ those needs and those shepherds' needs in that climate. The Iwasi sheep is drastically different from the East Frasian sheep because they were just developed in different parts of the world. ⁓ But I don't think the Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: You know, the people in Freishland weren't sitting there going, I'm going to develop a sheep that has a gallon of milk per day, has wool that could be criticized to the rooftops and has a beautiful personality the size of a Clydesdale and doesn't have parasite resistance to sneeze that. Like that's not what they did. They were just saying. So now we do something similar to that, but not exactly. but you know, what we're trying to say is breeds develop, but it wasn't as hands on. Liv Fox: Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: agriculturally as I think it is now. Liv Fox: Yes, yeah. Yeah, so all that to say, ⁓ so already started kind of, you know, with the East Friesian. Let's just continue on that path for the East Friesian. And ⁓ I 100 % admit for those of you listening, if you haven't figured out the East Friesian breed is very near and dear to my heart anyways. So ⁓ I personally really excited about Rachel Hester: Not to say. Right. Yeah. Liv Fox: NADSA offering this breed up program it's something that ⁓ am ⁓ participating in. I understand there's a lot of people out there who they don't care that they're happy with their diversified dairy sheep that they have. ⁓ They really care to breed up to any purebred status. That's fine. Like, you know, ⁓ for who has an interest to ⁓ breed Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, right, right. Liv Fox: particular breed. NADSA is offering that. We have a complete like breed up program with rules. It's listed on our website. ⁓ It's ⁓ a nice PDF file so you can print it off and if you have any questions you can always email ⁓ NADSA gmail account ⁓ we're more than happy to answer them. basically you Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and Liv Fox: Let's, guess let's keep going with the East region. Rachel Hester: we don't any purebred East Phrygians the ⁓ United States right now. We have really high percentage East Phrygians. we do. Okay. We do have purebreds. We do. Okay. All right. So, Liv Fox: No, we do. We do. No, we do. We do. Yes. Rachel Hester: Why do we need a breed up program then? Liv Fox: So need a breed up program because there's not very many purebred East Frisians, for example, in the United States. So for those who want to focus on that and focus on the traits that the East Frisian brings to the table, the breed up program is for them. Rachel Hester: Okay, yeah. Okay, so now explain what the Breed Up program, how you do the Breed Up program. Liv Fox: So for example, if you have a U, so well, so first of all, we need to, for the East region specifically, or whatever breed you're choosing to work with, you need to see what the breed standard is because that is phenotypically what those sheep look like. So phenotypically means what they physically look like. Genotypic is what they genetically have, which, you know, with genetics, there's, you dominant, recessive. Rachel Hester: Yes. Yes. Liv Fox: heterozygous, that kind of thing. with genotype, there can be things in the genetics that we don't know are there, but phenotype is what they physically look like. So the sheep that you're using for a breed up program need to phenotypically, so physically ⁓ to the breed standard for whatever breed you are choosing to work with. Awasi has a breed up program. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. So like with the Awasi sheep, a phenotype would be they're a fat-tailed sheep. With the East Frisian, phenotypically would be they have the classic rat tail. So if you submit a picture of an East Frisian that has a nice, long, bushy, wooly tail, that sheep does not express phenotypic East Frisian traits. Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rattail, yep. Correct. Correct. Correct. So we're using animals. Correct. And mom of that sheep may have had a rat tail and say the sire did too, the dad. And for whatever reason, the offspring was born ⁓ though the genetic traits that had been hidden, Rachel Hester: So it might be giving a gallon a day and that's the genotype, but that's not the phenotype. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: from mom and dad. The stars happened to align and those were expressed. that's, so she ended up with this big woolly tail. so that, for a breed up program, even though she can still be a great dairy animal, she can still be registered with NADSA, she just ⁓ would removed from the quote unquote breed up program project. Rachel Hester: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: because she does not phenotypically look like what the breed standard states. So they have to look like the breed standard. And so let's ⁓ kind of walk through like the starting point in the process. And then if you have any questions, we can circle back to any of them. Rachel Hester: I'll hold them till the end. Liv Fox: with this process, I say it's gonna be easiest to start off with a U. And so we're gonna have U's as a shepherd. feel like, I'm gonna pick on my own flock, I feel like I have some that do adhere to the breed standard. So ⁓ I ⁓ have like three that a rat tail. They meet. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: the coloration too because not all breeds allow color under the sun. know sometimes they have to be specific colors. So for East region for example, black acceptable, white's acceptable, and then piebald. So you're black sometimes it looks brown when it gets sun bleached ⁓ and so black and white. That's your piebald. Rachel Hester: Okay. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: So those are going to be the only three colors that are accepted within the breed up program and they have to have that rat tail. They're the breed standard, Nance's breed standard is also available on the website. So you can go there, you can print it off, you can see it if this is something that interests you. So say I have three use that I think are ⁓ in my mind of using for breed up. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Liv Fox: And so I am going to contact NADSA, say, hey, I have these three ewes that are already registered with the association. They have to be registered with NADSA already. And I would like to request that they be reviewed for a breed up program. And so I'm going to send pictures of all four sides of the sheep. So, and we need to see like hoof to head, like every... Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Liv Fox: The whole sheet needs to be in the frame all four views. And then we're also going to ⁓ that separate the and take a close up ⁓ of the ⁓ And that's for us just kind of tracking like what everyone's starting with wool wise. ⁓ I wouldn't say that's going to get anyone ⁓ declined for the It program. Yeah. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. is qualified. Liv Fox: So I submit those photos and they're put in a PowerPoint presentation. ⁓ executive board is going to review them at whenever the next monthly board meeting is. I don't, if it's my own sheep, ⁓ don't get an opinion on them. So it's the six other board members who get to decide and then vice versa if somebody else on the board has sheep that they want to use for the Breed Up program, ⁓ they don't get an opinion like Rachel Hester: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Liv Fox: At that point, myself as president, I'll sub in for their place. But for the most part, it's going to be the other six individuals who have a voice on yay or nay. ⁓ So they'll review it. if they say yes to all of them or yes to two of them, but no to one, I then reach out to the member and let them know the determination. Excuse me. For the ones that say we say yes on, Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: That U is going to be assigned 50 % of that status. Now, for some people that might seem like, wow, that's really taking my breeding program back. And I hear what you're saying, but just stick with me. There's a reason to the madness on why we're being really strict on this because suppose I have a U for example, in my barn that's supposed to be over 87 % East region. Rachel Hester: Okay. Right. Right. Liv Fox: I don't have any physical paperwork. I'm not able to trace her back all the way to purebred East region sheep. It's not been documented, which we just talked about why NADSA is so important for that documentation period. If you can trace your sheep back all the way to a purebred and have physical papers, not just handwritten notes that go back, that's a totally different ball game. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Liv Fox: We'll talk about that at the end. But so for that example, we're taking all those ewes that do not have any paperwork to actually say, yes, this is indeed what their percentage of this breed is. We're taking them back to 50 % because they phenotypically look like whatever breed you're selecting for the breed standard. So then we're going to take that ewe and going to breed her to a purebred. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: ram, whether it's live cover, ⁓ can do laparoscopic artificial insemination. So you can import semen of whatever breed you're choosing to work with and have that you bred. So say she, she takes, she lambs the following year, those offspring, as long as they continue to phenotypically look like the breed you are choosing to work with, they are going to become Rachel Hester: And then. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: the F2 generations, which means 75 % of the breed. Let's keep saying East region because we took a 50 % and a 100 % you add that together. That's 150 divided by two. Cause you're getting half the genetics from mom and dad. That gets us to 75%. If for some reason those lambs do not phenotypically, they do not physically look like their breed standard. That's okay. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: They don't just, they don't get to continue and they're not going to get that F2 status. They're not going to get 75%. They're just going to be listed as an East Friesian cross. And they can be registered with diversified dairy status still. Cause they're still probably going to be a great milking sheep. They just don't phenotypically look like the breed, which is how this breed came to be anyways, right? Like we selected and culled really hard for this breed. Say we got really lucky. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Right. Liv Fox: And we got at least one eulam out of that breeding. So we're going to take her as a 75 %er, breed her to another 100 %er, whether you maybe you're lucky, you have a, a ram or we're doing LAI again. So we breed those two together and we have offspring. We're, we're really lucky again. They all phenotypically look like what they're supposed to. That's our F3 generation. They're 87 and a half percent East Friesian at that point. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: We're going to take that U, breeder to 100 % again. Lambs are born. Things are so great. They look phenotypically like they should. So that's our F4. for U's, F4 is where NADSA will say, you have, congratulations, you have achieved purebred status. So at 93.75%, a U will be Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. And then. Liv Fox: purebred status because we have selected for several generations and in theory we should have weeded out anything that might pop up that we weren't expecting. For example, a woolly tail. Now for a ram to be considered a purebred, we would still need to breed that U back to another purebred ram for a F5 generation. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: And as long as any ram lambs born out of that F5 generation still adhere to the breed standard, we will consider them a purebred at that point. And a lot of people are probably taking a step back and saying, do rams have to go a whole nother generation? And the reason is because rams are the quickest way to influence your flock genetically. So we really want to make sure that we have really Rachel Hester: The extra step. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Liv Fox: weeded out any surprises. And not to say that we won't ever have any, but at that point it should be really unlikely that we have any surprises. Say we get to that F5 generation and we have like twin ram lambs and they aren't the right color or they don't have that rat tail for the East region. They're going to go all the way back to F0. Rachel Hester: Right, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: still can be registered with NANSA. They're just gonna go to the diversified dairy herd book. not gonna stay in our ⁓ Friesian herd book. So this is not something that is for everyone because there's a lot of work involved. There's money involved. you have to be, there are some purebred rams and ewes now. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: in the US that have been imported. Most folks have focused on importing rams because again it's the quickest way to genetically influence your flock. ⁓ those those individuals are registered. So I mean they're out there. You do it without purchasing semen. And I feel like Rachel Hester: Okay. Right. Rims are a bit cheaper too than you. Okay. Liv Fox: For a lot of folks though, it probably would be quote-unquote easier, I say easier in quotations for those of you not watching, ⁓ to import semen because there aren't a lot of purebred rams in the US and with this breed up program, I say they're gonna become even more highly sought after. They're already really highly sought after. So ⁓ gonna, they're quite valuable. Rachel Hester: Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Liv Fox: So this isn't for everyone and that's okay. But for the people who are like, to try this. I want to see how far I can get. I want to try this. want to, you know, this is my hobby and this is what I choose to spend my money on. ⁓ here for it. ⁓ And for anyone who's interested in ⁓ like breeding up for the Awasi specifically, Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Liv Fox: our program, it aligns with them. So honestly, I would say focus on like breeding up through them. And when you get purebred status, let us know and then ⁓ we reflect that. But they specifically focusing on one breed. And this is, up program is only offered to ⁓ breeds who do have a breed association available to us in the U.S. So like for Shetlands or Tunis or Fin Sheep, we're not gonna do those breed ups. Rachel Hester: We're not doing those. ⁓ like, let's just, we're only doing breed up programs for dairy specific sheep. Right. So right offhand, the ones that I know we have genes for in the United States are spit balling is, you know, the Awassis have their own breed association. So we're not going to oversee any kind of breed up program with the Awassis cause someone else is doing that. So that can be their baby. We are starting East Fringe Gen as of this year. Liv Fox: Yeah, yes, yeah. Mm-hmm. No. Yes. Yes. Rachel Hester: The other two breeds that I, or three I should say, the other three that I know of are Lacone, Asaf, and Zwerbles. And are there any, do we have any other dairy breeds right now, genetics in the United States? Cause I know there's like, there's British milk sheep, there's the Chura, just spitballing the dairy breeds I know of globally. But I don't think we have those genes in the United States. Liv Fox: Yes. Right. Not that I'm aware of. Yeah, that's ⁓ I don't, I know there are a few people in the U.S. It seems like closer to Canada and in the northeast that have British milksheep. But I think I personally like in my you know Facebook stalking and perusing and just googling and stuff ⁓ I've only been able to find like a couple people. with the inner web that are hey, British milking sheep. So like if you have them, great. we're more than, yeah, we're more than happy to work with you. And if especially like, I'm gonna assume genetics are pretty hard to come by because there's not a name that's thrown out there on social media very often. So yeah, I mean, we're more than happy to have you join us on this adventure. ⁓ Rachel Hester: Yeah, let us know. Yeah. Yeah. Right, orz. Right, right, right. Liv Fox: But yeah, lacones are gonna be, they would be difficult. I mean, you could do it. It would just, it's gonna take, it might take one generation longer because there aren't, there's no ⁓ that I'm aware of. It's just semen. So I mean, the daughters of, and the rams, but you're pretty much, you're working with, Rachel Hester: Yeah. Liv Fox: and then keep breeding them back to purebred to that's going to be your quickest way to do it. ⁓ Rachel Hester: Yeah, just draws. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, so did hear of someone in Kentucky who just imported frozen ⁓ Valley black nose, fertilize embryos from, think, Zealand. Yeah. And so they got full blood Valley black nose out of Katahdin's. So like you can. Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they've been doing that for a while. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's because they use ketadins as their reset use. Rachel Hester: Right, right, right, right. Point being, you can't, and they were individual people. So my point of this bunny trail is if you as an individual want a specific breed of dairy sheep, like if you wake up one day and you're like, I want British milk sheep, I found a farm in England, they will semi-fertilize embryos, I just want to go through the paperwork and you know, all that copy, like gook. Right, ⁓ and saying it that way because, okay, these friends who did the Valley Blacknose sheep, Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. The stress. Rachel Hester: to afford two pregnant Katadans with fertilized embryos, they had to sell off their entire herd of registered A2A2 Jersey cows in order to afford two pregnant ewes. So point of that being, this is not like collect Pokemon cards level hobby at all. is like, this is, this is not. Liv Fox: No. No. You're doing it because it's something you're really passionate about. Rachel Hester: Right, right, right. And you don't like to have a life or go see people or afford takeout food or anything else. Because shepherds be crazy. But point being, if you wanted to do all that, you could absolutely could. What we're saying is we just don't know anyone who is doing that right now for any breeds other than Awasi or East Friesian in the dairy sheep corner of the world. And Asaf, yeah. ⁓ Liv Fox: Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yes. and Asaf. So Asaf is as well. So they are, yep, there have been embryos imported for a while. I do not know of any East Frisian embryos that have imported into the U.S. I know of them that have been imported into Canada, but ⁓ a completely different ball game than the U.S. I am hoping that someday we can get there. Rachel Hester: ⁓ they are? ⁓ okay, I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. Liv Fox: Zorbles, you can import into the US. I know folks that have done that. yeah, to say all that, if you get embryos and you implant them in a ReCIP-U and you have offspring, obviously, so a lot of paperwork involved with that. You're gonna have a paper trail. You need to keep that paper trail. Rachel Hester: And. ⁓ Right, right, right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. Some copies. Yeah. Liv Fox: Send copies of that to NADSA. Don't send me your originals send copies Because that is how I can verify that you know you you completely bypassed the breed up program Which is awesome. You have purebred offspring Let's be honest. We're importing these embryos from from not the US right? ⁓ They're they're good. They're Rachel Hester: right right right right Goodness knows where. Right. Liv Fox: I would be flabbergasted if they did not adhere to the breed standard, to be honest with you. So they should. And same, you're gonna need to submit the photos and stuff still, but send that paperwork with you. And just like with artificial insemination, send the paperwork with registering the sheep to say like, you know, this is the straw that I used, here's the veterinarian ⁓ or... Rachel Hester: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Liv Fox: you know, the technician who do the procedure. Like there's an example letter attached with the breed up program program that you could copy and just adapt to your your needing. And then whoever does the procedure, they just sign off on it. You would send a photocopy of that too, along with your photos. There's no extra fees involved to get involved with the breed up program. So you just need to make sure these sheep are ⁓ Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. You're paying enough fees as it is. Liv Fox: Yeah, yes, and that's the biggest reason why. There's gonna be coding that changes throughout the breed up program. It's gonna be in your sheep's name. So traditionally or historically what we have done for sheep that are being registered with us that are purebred already, I'm gonna use fin sheep, because those are the most common. So already registered with the Fin Sheep Breeders Association. They have a registration number with them. Rachel Hester: Right. Liv Fox: and people that are registering them with NADSA because they're using them for milking purposes, they send a photocopy of that Fin Sheep Breeders Association Certificate and I input all the generations behind it and as I do that, that breed associations registration number, I put it, I tag it at the very end of that sheep's name. So that's another way that you can verify that that sheep is indeed a purebred. So we're not taking people's word. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Okay. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: for anything. ⁓ I know for some people that's really frustrating. feel like you're going backwards. But this what we need to do to move forward for anyone who really wants to say this. I actually have this percentage and it been reviewed by multiple people and like it's legit like the certificate says it. So there will be different coding. Rachel Hester: Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Liv Fox: for the readup program at the end of your sheep's name. ⁓ And you want the new certificate printed off for that, we can if they've already been registered. But like the use that I have personally, I don't ever foresee them leaving my farm. So I'm just gonna keep their certificate the same ⁓ my hot little hands, but in the computer, they're gonna have the code at the end of their name ⁓ would signify they have been. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: you know labeled and stamped as 50 % and eventually once they you know those generations get to 100 % it'll be reflected also in the on the certificate it'll say east region 100 % or swirbles 100%. Rachel Hester: Right, just to like to the folks who go, I know that I have, let's say, you 86.5 % East Frasians. Like I can tell you exactly who they came from. Here's the thing. And I don't have a dog in this fight personally, because like I said, right now my heart is with my milk mutts because they can handle our abuse and neglect with Kyle's schedule without batting an eye. So I am, Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: out of this conversation with the Bring It program. Right, right, right. So, keeping it real. ⁓ for the people who are like, know for a fact, I can tell you which farm imported it, blah, blah. Liv Fox: Right. Yeah, they work really well for you guys. Rachel Hester: There there. We have to have a across the board indifferent policy for all of these sheep because we are trying to make a breed that is reproducible without any variables. So even if you know, ⁓ like got a sheep, Lily, I'll use her for example. ⁓ I the farm I got her from. Liv Fox: Hmm? Rachel Hester: She can tell me the farm she got her sire from. There's a lot of word of mouth. Lily's got a nice rat tail and brown face and she's got like ⁓ the of an esphagusion, but she's too small and ⁓ she's colored. So I also know she has tunis in her background too. So I can verbally tell you what I was told, what so-and-so was told, and what so-and-so was told. And do I... Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: Am I criticizing any of the farmers that came before me with telling me what they were or who they were? No, I'm not criticizing, I'm not saying they're liars, I'm not saying they're in any way should perform intentionally deceiving us. like you and I said when it came to the whole NASA thing, doesn't even really know what is what parent and what sibling is half siblings in our flock. I mean, I've got... Liv Fox: Right. Rachel Hester: four generations of sheep on my farm. I have to write things down because there was one sheep rocow and I were like, that's Louvay's lamb. And then we thought about it for a second. like, ⁓ shoot, no, that was Hansel. Cause all of our boys sound like they came out of romance novel. But like we were like, ⁓ snap, we almost got that mixed up. Point of that being, ⁓ one two more generations, we're gonna get it wrong. And it's not that we're trying to be deceptive or anything like that. ⁓ Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: And I am, am, cars on the table, a horrible record keeper. Like Kyle does our budget, cause I'm terrible about writing stuff. Just cars on the table. Point of that being, you know, we have the best of intentions. We're not trying to deceive anyone. We're not trying to like, you know, hide what genes we're using. It's just life happens. Lamming happens. You don't sleep. You forget stuff. You get older. Liv Fox: You Right. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: and you forget what you and Bram made that particular baby. All of that being said, if we're trying to establish a breed that has reproducible traits every single time, which is what a breed is for all the brand spanking new young homesteaders or farmers or ⁓ people who want a particular breed for a purpose, it's unfair to those people to say, well, Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: I have an emotional attachment to my percentage of my sheep and I've got a lot of identity and pride wrapped up in this. So I'm not going to let you all have a fair shot at the playing field of an actual breed because I can't just cowgirl up and say, I don't have the records to prove that my offspring will make reproducible offspring. So to eliminate that variable in the genetic Liv Fox: Right. Rachel Hester: mass that is weird enough to begin with. just saying you can look like an East region, you can sound like an East region, you can make milk like an East region. Everybody, no matter how much they love the flock, no matter how much they know for an absolute fact, it is higher percentage than that. You get 50 % because that after doing the math, we've decided as a board is a fair starting ground just so we can make sure we have the, know, breed records, the, Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ Rachel Hester: ⁓ Yeah, yeah, we're trying to establish pedigrees, what I'm trying to say. We're trying to establish a pedigree of traceable, we know who these parents are, we know their traits are, we have photos in our database, ⁓ so we have, you know, an actual database ⁓ of- Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Yes. Rachel Hester: Here's how we developed the East Freasian breed of the United States. And you know, if you don't like how we're doing this, I double dog dare you, go and start your own East Freasian Breed Association. I dare you. Show us how it's done. Please do. Liv Fox: Yes. Yeah, yes, please do Please do. Good luck with the IRS because that'll take forever to get your nonprofit status. Believe me, I know. But yeah. Rachel Hester: Yeah. Right. Yeah, I'm almost 40. I'm at that point when people criticize stuff. I'm like, you know what, know what, Brenda, go do it. You do it and show me how to do it better. Go ahead, Brenda, just go do it. So I'm not even gonna bicker with you. So. Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yes. it's not, honestly, guys, it's not worth bickering about. Like, we all agree. We're very passionate about Dairy Sheep. We're all very passionate about our flock specifically. We all think ours is the best for one reason or the other. That's fine. Okay? Let's just, ⁓ getting that off the table. Rachel Hester: Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Liv Fox: to move forward with breeding up for whatever specific breed, like there are rules and everybody has to adhere to the rules. I don't get to make my own rules because I'm the president and like, ⁓ like I'm gonna register my sheep anyways. Like that's not how it works. ⁓ And it's the same playing field for everyone. Rachel Hester: Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Well, and honestly, I thought Lily would be a perfect candidate for I thought my Lily will be a perfect candidate for the breed it program until this episode right here. When you're like Brown doesn't count. I'm like, well, Lily's not eligible for the breed up program. Now, like if I wanted to, if I wanted to LAI her and the, and the offspring came out, that offspring would definitely be eligible should she not be brown and should she still have the rat tail and should she still have the nose and all the things and be tall enough. But, and Lily's a great little sheep. Like I have high hopes for her in the future of my flock. She's a great mama. She's just not an East region and that's fine. Liv Fox: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Well, and who knows? She might be some great genetic traits to ⁓ offspring. If ever choose to breed to a purebred East Frisian that will then influence, you know, maybe she's got great parasite resistance or something, you know? And so her line, her offspring, know, down the road, like ⁓ is great for resistance. You know? Rachel Hester: Right, she does. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Liv Fox: But, but yes, that's there. mean, and I would say we're, um, we're not allowing like docked tails either. Um, and I know there's a lot of folks out there that have docked tails just like with dairy cattle because, know, well, I don't want to get swatted in the face. Well, I hate to say it. Those ones aren't, they're not going to get 50 % Rachel Hester: We just can't verify if you've docked the tell that it's a rat tail. it's like, I'm just saying show me the so that I Liv Fox: Right, Rachel Hester: put it in the database because our standard is, is it databaseable? If it's not databaseable, and no, your handwritten notes aren't databaseable, we can't put it in the database. And that is what Natsa is about, establishing a database and actual information so people can reproduce results on their farms. Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Correct. Hmm. Yes. Yes, and believe you and I, it's, no, it's not personal. It's not personal at all. It's very traceable, because there's a lot of paperwork involved, whether you're importing semen or embryos, there's a lot of paperwork involved. There is a huge paper trail. So it's very easy to say, here you go, is what I got. And need that to say, yep, okay, this is verified, we're not. Rachel Hester: and it's not personal. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Liv Fox: We're not just taking Joe Schmo's word for it. There's legitimate paperwork in a paper trail that's not just handwritten. know, there's import permits. Veterinarians have signed off on, you know, implanting the embryos or doing the LAI. Or there are some technicians out there that do LAI, you know, if they've signed off. Like there's people that are willing to sign off that work within the industry at a professional level. Rachel Hester: Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. and then Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: that that is a way to verify it. so yes, we're not not trying to hurt anyone's feelings by any means. ⁓ And if if you have been doing this ⁓ your own for several years and you have multiple generations of this and you have the paperwork like saying like, well, I started from here. This is the you know, the straws that I imported or the ram that I purchased. And then I have done this all on my own. Rachel Hester: Brave, brave, brave. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Liv Fox: Like that is acceptable, okay. But you have to have the paperwork from like the origination story. We can't just take your word for it. that's, again, that's why NADSA was born was because all this paperwork is just disappearing into the abyss. And I guess it can disappear into the abyss to a point but at least it's been recorded in NADSA, so. Rachel Hester: Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Liv Fox: If somebody's like, hey, do you by chance have a copy of this still? Yes, we have it. Because believe you and I, I don't get rid of any of that stuff. It's all filed away in a lovely filing system. Rachel Hester: Right. Right. Right. Right, right. But again, I think that's, you know, that is a really important thing for us, I guess, to keep reiterating to people because I cannot begin to tell you the amount of debating we've had with people wanting to register their sheep. And, know, we're trying to explain to them this is... ⁓ not sitting there judging my sheep Lily that she's not a good enough sheep to put into the breed up program. That's not the point. The point is ⁓ know if I sold Lily's offspring to someone, there is no way for me to guarantee if I sold Lily's lamb to Liv that two or three generations down the road, those offspring are still going to look East region. Liv Fox: Mm-mm. Rachel Hester: What we're trying to do is establish that if you breed sheep A and sheep B together, sheep C will look like A and B, sheep Z will look like A and B, and you know that for a fact. That's what a breed is. And when you have non-verifiable genetics, like with Lily, you know, where I think I know what she is, but I can't prove it, you know, who's to say she doesn't spit out a beautiful badger-faced lamb that looks exactly like a fin? Liv Fox: Correct. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rachel Hester: and there's nothing wrong with that sheep, but it doesn't look like an East Frisian. So yeah, so yeah, yeah. And right. again, mutts are okay. Right, right, right. And you can still milk it and you can still love it. ⁓ can love that sheep. You can spin its wool. You can wear socks you knit from it. You can make cheese from that milk. It can still be registered with NASA. It's still a dairy sheep. ⁓ just not an East Frisian dairy sheep. Liv Fox: Right? Yeah, yes, yeah, and that's okay. We'll still register that sheep. Just not in the breed up program. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Rachel Hester: And I think, I don't know why there's so much emotional attachment to breeds per se. But again, I'm all about the mutts and the cross. Like all my dogs are mutts. I don't have any pedigrees on my farm. So, you know, there's a time and place for show animals and pedigrees and that kind of, and really specific breeds. There's absolutely a time and place for that. But if you're establishing a new breed in a new country, we just need to have some ground rules. Liv Fox: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yes, there is a time and Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: And, you know, my personal preference would be please, please, please don't be offended if we just enforce the rules for your beloved sheep. Like, we want to work with you, but we have to have rules. And you're not the exception to the rule because not fair to people down the road because want your sheep to count and qualify and it just doesn't qualify. So there's my soapbox. Liv Fox: Yes. Mm-hmm, right. Yeah. Right. Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. ⁓ if it's something that you want to talk about more than just an email, send an email. I'll give you my cell phone number and we can have a conversation, too. So because I know sometimes you can't hear someone's tone through an email. Right. And I understand that maybe someone thinks that ⁓ am the one that is exclusively making all these decisions. ⁓ Rachel Hester: You're not. Liv Fox: quick conversation ⁓ can quickly discover I'm not and honestly I don't get a I don't have an active voice unless there's a tie anyways like that's the whole reason why there's seven people on the board six of them are voting members ⁓ only vote in the event of a tie ⁓ or if one of our members sheep is being Rachel Hester: Yeah. Liv Fox: for the breed up program, I'll sub in for them because it's not fair for them to have an opinion or a vote on their own sheep either. So we really unbiased. No. Nope. Nope. Nope. Mm hmm. Yes. Rachel Hester: Right, right. So what you're saying is you don't make the decision at all. Yeah, you don't make the decision personally at all about who qualifies for the breed up program. I have a say in it. The other board members have a say in it. The only time you actually step in and make a decision is like, say, I wanted to submit Lily for the breed up program. I can't vote on my sheep. So you would step in at that point. So all that I said, quit being mad at Liv if she says no. was, be mad at me. ⁓ Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Correct. Correct. Right, well, and I, it's sometimes I get the brunt of it, which is fine, because I'm then the messenger. I then deliver the message of saying, hey, you know, the board got together, reviewed ⁓ sheep, and this is the determination. ⁓ So, you know, it's the whole thing, like don't shoot the messenger. I'm the messenger, so. ⁓ Rachel Hester: Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, seriously, don't shoot the messenger. Liv Fox: So, but, you know, I'm all for healthy conversations. I'm not gonna argue with people about it because not decided by me. It's decided by a large group of people who have ultimately decided this is the best practice that we're going to do moving forward. And we have not reinvented the wheel with this process either. Like this has been a longstanding process. Rachel Hester: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Right, this is, right. mean, and we're like, yeah, like you just said, we didn't come up with this method of a breeding up program. This is across the board for any livestock that is entering into, you know, pigs, cows, chickens, sheep, goats, partridges in a pear tree. Like this is how you do this. So, you know, again, again, I cannot stress enough. It's not personal. It's nothing against your sheep. You know what it is, Liv? It's your darn Michigan or directness. You got to sprinkle some more fiddly deez. Liv Fox: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hester: your emails. Liv Fox: need to get more tech savvy and figure out how to use like chat GBT or something like that. Fluff it up. ⁓ I don't like emojis because for me, usually emojis come across like, you really are being snooty, but you're putting that emoji in there to be like, I'm not. ⁓ I'm usually not an emoji person unless I'm texting and usually it's ⁓ like crying laughing face emoji, which... Rachel Hester: or emojis or yeah, yeah, put it here. Yeah. Liv Fox: because I do find that really funny. ⁓ Rachel Hester: Right, right, right. I'm like, I am a snob and here's an emoji to make you feel better about it. ⁓ Liv Fox: I used to have a co-worker that was like that and I was like stop doing that. We all know what you're doing. Just stop it. Rachel Hester: Yeah, yeah, So, all right, well, hopefully, hopefully this episode helps, you the people wanting, I'm hoping so, cause I just feel like we have had some confusion and some with some people when it comes to breeding up program. And we don't, we're not, we're not trying to sow discord amongst the masses at all. We're just trying to just establish a flock using the established routes that have established other breeds in our. Liv Fox: I'm hoping so, yeah. Mm-hmm. Nope. Rachel Hester: relatively new country if you think about it. I mean, so hopefully this helps. Liv Fox: Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, if not, and you still have questions by all means reach out. I ⁓ the email at least once a day unless something happens. But usually I'm pretty good at responding fairly quickly. It's ⁓ that I'm more than happy to talk about and hopefully get it to the point where like you can further understand, you know, if ⁓ for reason this conversation today you still have unanswered questions, reach out so we can talk and hopefully we can get you on the same page as everyone else to understand why things are the way they are. Rachel Hester: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. And two, I would encourage people like, you know, do your own homework. First and foremost, if you want to help establish a breed, find out what those breed requirements are. If you are established, if you are submitting a. You know, Shetland coloring ⁓ Liv Fox: Yes. Rachel Hester: for the braid up program with the badger face and the different colors and the beautiful, you know, flowing of different wool colors and types. happy to spin that fleece, but that's not going to make this cut for the braid standard because that's not what East Asians do. Shetlands and pens do, East Asians do not. So just do some homework, like figure out ahead of time, what ⁓ braid you trying to help establish? Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Rachel Hester: What is the breed standard? And then please just objectively look, does your sheet match those breed standards? And if the answer is no, are 110 % going to say no as well because we ⁓ have copies of the breed. Right, right. Liv Fox: Mm-hmm. Right. Cause we're referring to that breed standard. And just, just a little tidbit, you can start off looking for the breed standard on the North America Dairy Sheep Association website. There's several of them on there. Yeah, no, they're, they're on there. And again, that was something that, well, most of them have been from purebred associations of that breed over in Europe. Yeah. Rachel Hester: Right, right, we're not keeping it a secret. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, where the breed was established. Yeah. Liv Fox: Yes, and so we're not flipping the script. go there. And if for some reason, I will be honest, I don't think we have a breed standard for British milking sheep. I'd have to double check, but I'm ⁓ that we don't. If you go out and you find it and bring it to us and say, this is what I want, we will update the website number one. Like we have to discuss it as a board. It's not just LaFox saying, okay, yep. Rachel Hester: Okay. Liv Fox: But yes, most of the breeds are dairy specific ⁓ that are eligible for this ⁓ indeed already listed on our website. There's a lot of information on our website. I strongly encourage people to go to our website. There's a rule list of how to go about picking ⁓ your names and your farm prefix, because there's certain character limits. Rachel Hester: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Liv Fox: There's so many things on there that it spells it out that save you some frustration and heartache down the road. ⁓ If you feel like, ⁓ they not working with me? Well, there's a lot of the stuff that's already been laid out. So ⁓ use as a resource. And like I said, if you still don't understand it, shoot ⁓ the Gmail account and email and we'll go from there. Rachel Hester: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Alright, All ⁓ right, well, and just real quick, you have, if you're listeners or if you're watching on YouTube, like we said, if you have questions, us an email at the Nads Gmail account, the WhoopsieZeeFarm Gmail account. If you have more questions, like I've said before, I mean, can check the comments on YouTube very easily. ⁓ If you leave comments on iTunes and Spotify, Liv Fox: Yes, yes. Rachel Hester: That's a little trickier for me to just pull up an access. ⁓ Liv Fox: Yeah, I was gonna say to be honest, I don't, I've never checked comments for those. Rachel Hester: Okay, yeah. So if you want to make sure we see your comment, question, message, email us if you're on the podcast platforms. leave the, you can leave the comments, leave comments, because that tells the algorithms we're a good podcast worth listening to. Just know that we're not necessarily going to see it. The robots will though. know, and so, all right. I'll catch you later, Liv. Thank you for going through all of that. And I'm kind of proud we didn't go through too many bunny trails this time. Liv Fox: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yes. Yeah, no, I think we did great. All right, I'll see you later. Rachel Hester: Yeah. All right, I'll see you. Okay, bye.