Ben Reynard: So, welcome to the downpole. And this week this guest needs no introduction, I don't think. Is Hobby What's Luke. First off the national. How we're doing? Exhausted. But yeah, I I had to had to take a little break. ⁓ had to take a little bit of time to get my voice back. ⁓ by day two of the national, it was gone. So yeah, pleased to be here, pleased to be speaking to you, good to catch up, and ⁓ look forward to going through some of the stuff we've got to speak about. Yeah, ⁓ I'm looking forward to this one. ⁓ Starting off, first of all, for people that don't know you, where did we start off? Yeah, so my name's Luke, as you guys know, and I started very generically, really, ⁓ back in 2020. I was like most of us playing FIFA, ⁓ ripping Ultimate Packs, ⁓ which for for the guys that don't know, FIFA on my ultimate packs is a is a digital repack, essentially. ⁓ that you end up using them cards as players to play in the game. I was doing that quite quite substantially, trying to build a good team to play with and stuff like that. And then I was part of a pro clubs team. ⁓ and then we were streaming on Twitch and and stuff like that. So, you know, we had a small following of FIFA club players, and then we started to watch on Twitch actually, it was Castro. Yeah. Like most of us, like I say, like like it's a generic thing that where people have watched Castro, which is now Castro Collects, which is i incredible to think. ⁓ he was opening personal boxes of impeccable, which at the time they were like five hundred and fifty dollars a box. ⁓ so really, really cheap and very affordable. And they just looked amazing. It was mainly on card. ⁓ and I was like, wow, why am I spending quite a lot of money on ripping these digital packs? ⁓ that as you know, with FIFA, every year it rotates back around and you lose everything that you've purchased and you you go again. ⁓ but with these physical cards, you actually got to keep them and collect them. ⁓ I'm gonna say collect them at now, because back then it was just collecting. There was no thought that, ⁓ wow, this could be monetary value, this could be a business. There you it was just, ⁓ wow, these are cool. And I like the players, I like the cards. ⁓ but it was it it it was impeccable that he was ripping. And then also I started to see him actually get involved with some videos and stuff. Obviously, he's a content creator, so stuff that makes content i i is i is stuff that he gets involved in and does. ⁓ and he actually started to do some, you know, giveaways and Austin from Austin actually had his own breaking company right back then, who now works with soccer breakers. ⁓ so those of you know soccer breaker Cyrus. His partners Austin. Austin actually had his own breaking company. And he actually gave ⁓ Castro a bunch of stuff to open up on stream. So then I found Austin. Through Austin, I found Cyrus, and it never sort of looked back from there, really. So my very first Instagram post ⁓ was actually the 9th of December 2020. ⁓ I had to scroll way, way back. I've got I've got quite a few thousand posts on Instagram now. And ⁓ I scrolled all the way back this morning just to find the very first one, which was the ninth of December 2020. ⁓ and I think what had happened there was that ⁓ we had ordered some boxes from Cyrus actually. Cyrus was the first person to actually help me get any form of of boxes whatsoever. So he used to sell personals on his website. ⁓ and what we did was we ordered some personals on the website, but we had them sent sealed and then VLS was the pro clubs team that me and the guys played for. And basically we said, ⁓ well, it was actually Euro, Euro 2020 Select, which is probably one of my favorite sets that I collected at the time and collected the rainbows for and stuff like that. ⁓ and and there was like five of us, six of us that wanted to get involved. So all we did was the value of the box, I can't remember what it was right now, say say 300 pounds ⁓ here in the UK. ⁓ we just divided the cost by the People that wanted to get involved, ⁓ there was no money to be made. It was just we'll divide it, do the random teams, ⁓ and then open the box online. And then when we started to stream online, people from Twitch was like, How do I get involved? How do I get involved? So then we ended up working out the cost of the box, just dividing that by 20 teams, and then we started to sell the spots. Yeah. The rest is history. ⁓ Megan was there sending out the packages, and suddenly UK box breaks was W was a was a thing and that that was where we really, really started was UK box breaks. that was just me ripping on Instagram and and and Twitch. There was no there wasn't none of these platforms or anything like that. So yeah, that's the origin, the the the early origins. Yeah, I think it's where a lot of people started with the Facebook breaks and things like that. I remember getting into like NFL breaks and they'd be they wouldn't even be live, they'd just be recording and put up after It's crazy the thing, right? Yeah, isn't it? If you look back here now, you're like, well Yeah, no, it was cool. ⁓ so going through sort of like the you went from there and you've gone through to the hobby box now. I've actually gone through a middle transition in there as well. So in twenty twenty two, I actually went to my first national and met up with Cyrus. ⁓ Cyrus ⁓ actually invited myself, Austin. Like I say, Austin had his own breaking company at the time. He wasn't known as soccer breakers. And he also invited sports cards, Austin invited sports cards Tom, who's still around in in different spaces. But ⁓ so it was me, Tom from the UK, two of us from the UK, which is pretty cool at the time. ⁓ Austin and Cyrus. And then we had a meeting when we was out there and we actually established ⁓ Soccer Breakers UK. For a period of time where Cyrus was my mentor for nearly three years. and really, really helped me ⁓ establish ⁓ relationships and ⁓ and a footing within the hobby within the UK and Europe and and then growing on to the USA later on. ⁓ but yeah, without without Cyrus's help, and I'm forever thankful, I probably wouldn't have been able to grow what I grew anyway, or have the connections. The connections was definitely the main thing. And Putting you in the room with the right people, ⁓ and getting that early introduction back in twenty twenty two. ⁓ re really, you know, stood on for the next three years of what we've tried to grow. ⁓ then I c I actually moved out to San Diego for a period of time. And then when I come back to the UK, we established the hobby box. ⁓ because whatnot had started. so then we we we obviously went on to whatnot. was one of the early early early streamers on whatnot. We used the brand Hobby Box and then from then on, you know, we took on ⁓ a couple of good old customers of ours, which was Herbie ⁓ and Kim. ⁓ and we just basically met up and said, Do we fancy giving this a go on on whatnot as the hobby box? And that was established from there. So yeah. And then we've we've we've we've obviously grown the the the bits and bobs from there. Yeah. They're still with you now. I believe ⁓ Her Herbie's not And and neither's Kim, they've both moved on to different things. I think we've had quite a few people come and go. ⁓ when I actually look at the I I was just scrolling back through ⁓ the Instagram there, you know, BK, BK started in the hobby. He actually worked through us a little period at the office. He's now obviously with Lucas at TFF. You've got Elliot, ⁓ who was Elliot and ⁓ Jack, who was trade we ⁓ they they evolved into trade we they both worked at the office. Elliot's gone on to do different things. Jack's gone on to really grow GBW. so yeah, there's been been a good few. Obviously, we've now still got got Frogly. G got Frogly, Gorilla Breaks, James, who needs no introduction himself. He did tell me you guys did a short clip in the national and stuff. So yeah, he he's incredible. You know, I treat him as if he's just a big son of mine. And yeah, he's been amazing. And then we've got Guy and a few others as well. So yeah, the team's forever. Forever growing, we are always looking to grow a little bit more. I think there's different ways you can grow in this hobby right now. Yeah. I think it's it's still very young in it in where it is. There's a lot of Yeah, really young. Really young. So you were one of the first people to bring on the one part starts. Yeah, for sure. For sure. We was definitely ⁓ Yeah, we were I I I I would say I adopted that from day one, from the get go. for different reasons, really. Yeah, I was gonna say that's a big risk in it, especially when you're starting out. Massive risk. And I I think I think, you know, a lot of I get a lot of DMs right now from from new streamers. How do you start? How do you do this? And I think that we was very lucky the fact that we'd built an Instagram following through doing the breaks with with other people and friends and stuff like that. So we had a friend following if you would, then we had a customer following, then we grew the soccer breakers. So when we led on to to the platform, I think I I I just said to ourselves that, you know, this is the money we're we're prepared to spend on product. And, you know, one pound starts for us at the time. they were a risk, but at the same time, there was enough demand because there was only four sellers from the UK at the time on the on the platform. So with with not enough competition, if you will. Because you know, it at back then what not actually stated you you would book a time slot. So at the start you actually booked time slots to go on so that it was like more staggered rather than everyone on at the same time, which, you know, we see it nowadays that there's so many sellers, but there is now so many buyers as well. But you know, l over the last three years that hasn't been the case. It has stagnated up and down. ⁓ but for us, the one pound starts were just a way to get customers into product. To get them to trust the platform, to understand the postage process. ⁓ same with the giveaways, you know. Giveaways, you know, there's a culture of giveaways. ⁓ whether that works or doesn't work, people see it as a way to get customers in, people see it as a way to give back to customers. ⁓ you know, but yeah, for us, I I also to be honest with you, I'm so impatient and I suffer with OCD so badly that if you ever think I'm gonna sit there for seven hours and try and sell out a case break. Or a PYT, it's never gonna happen. The most I can do four hours is playing golf. And that's it. ⁓ I'm never I cannot sit there and be bored waiting for people to take spots. I just I just can't do it. ⁓ so for me, one pound starts with a way forward, just get on with it. You're ⁓ you you know, I say it like this that the house never loses as in a casino because I do see this As that sort of industry, I really do. And in America, it's definitely seen as that industry. ⁓ but if you run enough of them and you run enough products that over the course of period of time you should even out, you should be okay. ⁓ because the back then it was a will. It was a true will on the platform. You would lay your teams out, take your splits out, wherever you needed. And, you know, if as long as you hit a minimum number on the will, you was good to go, even if you broke even. And if the good teams went early, you'd lose a bit. And if the good teams lasted till the end, hey ho, you'd make pretty good money at the time, you know. And I I think I I think that's also what's quite what's changed quite a lot over the last few years. When I first was working in the hobby, making money and making profit was like a dirty word. You wasn't allowed you weren't allowed to make money. Like it it just wasn't a thing. you weren't allowed to be a business or you weren't allowed to you know, actually make money from doing it. ⁓ where nowadays I think you're seeing so many incorporated businesses that obviously run at a profit, otherwise they wouldn't exist, right? You know, we're we're paying members of staff, we're renting offices, we're traveling to do it. To do that, you need to be making your profits. So yeah, it was a risk, but it was a risk that paid off for us. We do still use that system. You know, we're live today on whatnot and we're we're we're still running one pound starts. ⁓ we do also run set prices now because some of our team members are happy to sit there and do that. ⁓ I think it's horses for courses to what works for you guys. I think we've s we've also seen, you know, breakers come through that have also adopted the one pound start and done really well. ⁓ Sully's a prime example. Good friend of ours, and he's gone on to grow his channel from one pound starts. you know, so It's a lot of horses for course. And I think a lot depends on the breaker as well. Some like sitting there and and breaking stuff down into the nitty gritty. Some like that sort of the the excitement of the one pound start and they they've sort of get a buzz off that and you can feel it. So Yeah, and I think I I I think that's correct. That every break is different. Yeah. You know, we've seen baller breaks. He's on every night with a case and his customers know that that's his consistency. And he's grown his business on that consistency. And that's that's different people doing different methods. If we all tried to do the same, it it would be boring. Yeah. ⁓ and I think some customers want different things. Some people want the attraction of maybe being able to get in for a pound, because some spots do sell for a pound. Some some customers want the attraction of buying in for a case break with baller, getting their spot, getting their team, their player, waiting for the case to be filled, and they check back in within the hour and it yeah, and it's it's it's done for them, you know. ⁓ so yeah, I don't think there's any right or wrong way nowadays. And my best advice to anyone that's starting up is have fun with it. Don't worry about the profit. If you're getting in this just to make profit, it's probably not gonna be for you. No. If you're getting in this to have some fun, learn, adapt as you're going along and grow, then the money will come afterwards because it certainly weren't the reason what we started for. It was just to mess around with some friends opening and collecting cards. So ⁓ Yeah, I think I'd be ⁓ It becomes a bit of a lifestyle after a while as well, doesn't it? When it's that that is definitely true, for sure. You you you've hit the nail on the head there. This this is yeah, I I think people think you switch off and you really don't. ⁓ like as someone that collects cards ⁓ and buying and selling, I'm online. ⁓ I I have so many of the Americans text me saying, When do you actually sleep, Luke? Like Because you are online 24-7 for this, buying, selling, trading, sorting out deals, whether it's sorting out the card shows, ⁓ the different the various different card shows throughout Europe or America, whether you're sorting out them, whether we're sorting out our own stuff here in the UK, the streams, it it you you grow into this lifestyle of an entrepreneur still, but it's a lifestyle of ⁓ of being a hobby collector, owner, shop owner, whatever it is you want to. put it into that category, but it is definitely a lifestyle that you need to be happy to live with. And it also takes up everyone else within your family. yeah. Like my kids ⁓ and everyone else that's involved, it takes them with it. They don't get a choice. You can't just switch off when you walk in the door. No. It's antisocial as well, isn't it? It's all evenings, weekends. So if they want to see you, they Yeah, you've seen that yourself, and ⁓ you you know, you've seen me have to take the kids and and and so forth to the card shows with me because you are absolutely right. And I think I looked I I I sat there and booked my diary for August, September, October, and I don't really see a weekend that I'm not away in September at a a various different card show. And from the you know, from literally the second of October till the thirtieth of October, we're all in Asia. So, you know, there's so much going on right now that it it does become antisocial for you, your friends and your family. ⁓ yeah, I struggle now. Non non card friends I don't even really see anymore. I really don't. And when you do see them. I don't get to see them. No. When you do get to see them, you just sit that's enough. ⁓ what do you guys do then? Like That that is so true. It's like, ⁓ what have you been doing? And you you instantly go on to talking about cards. Yeah. but it's difficult, isn't it? Speaking about sort of the US, Asia, that sort of thing, one thing we always see is you're travelling around the world, card here, cadre that, and you were part of getting the international pavilion in place. How did that come about? 'Cause that that was taking bit of work. Not yes. Tremendous amount of work, ⁓ but very, very rewarding at the same time, and very, very proud, honestly. It it it was something that from the moment I joined the national ⁓ in 2022, bearing in mind I was only standing behind Cyrus's table as a a vendor and a helper. ⁓ and Cyrus was actually in what was known as the Breakers Pavilion. So the Breakers Pavilion back then was actually run and controlled by GTS. So GTS was looking after the Breakers Pavilion. So you would have if you had a GTS account back then, you had the opportunity to buy a package. These packages would range from 50 to 80k, and you'd get a bunch of bunch of stock. And then to do that, you'd also get a table at the national to break. Right. So that was what the Breakers Pavilion was. And then you was in the Breakers Pavilion, the rules always were that you wasn't allowed to buy and sell cards. So as the years went on, this, you know, Grew into something different. But, you know, people like Cyrus, that at the time was one of the only soccer sellers there, meant that he could no longer buy and sell singles. So evidently he moved out of the breaker pavilion and didn't didn't end up doing that. So soccer would become less and less and less. but from 2022, I got on the waiting list. Now, for people that don't know actually how to get a table at a national, it is it, it isn't an easy and Quick process, but everyone's entitled to do it. Everyone. You're entitled to do it. Anyone's entitled to do it. On a sun on the Sunday of the national, you have to wake up at 6 a.m., go down to the lobby where they're doing the table format, and you have to put yourself in the ballot. You the ballot will go in different levels, and that ballot will basically mean if you've never been at the national, you're going to be one of the last ones to get pulled out. If you've done a year at the national, a second year. Some of these guys have done it since the beginning, and they're obviously grandfathered rights in. So they get first picks. Okay. And then they work along the plan. You pick your booths, you pick your booths, and then you pick the tables. Obviously, with the expansion of the national, they've obviously gone upstairs now. And that's where last year was the first year they did it. It was a success success up there, but it was very small, quite cramped, wasn't wasn't, wasn't their main focus. and it was more of just a pop-up and we'll see how this works out. And then the plans to grow it this year obviously brought corporate up there. So around the edge of that ⁓ around the edge of that upstairs area was corporate, and then the middle of it was the the collectors. ⁓ by me banging on the door every year on the waiting list, so turning up, speaking to the guys there, that work within the team to pick your tables. Now, bearing mind, even if you've had a table at the national, there is no guarantee you get a table the next year. Because if your number doesn't come out in the ballot, you lose your table. There's not it's not a guarantee. It's not like here in Europe where, ⁓ you've had a table, you can text the owner, maybe you'll get one next year. No. You still have to go in and draw your name out. I always thought it was just like a bit like Winnister's on, you what I mean? Like literally. Literally. There's no favoritism. It's just pull it out and there's your number. So I I obviously explained to them that there's no international presence from the UK or Europe or and there's no soccer presence and there's no Formula One presence, right? Mike from Le Aya had one or two showcases. There would be Hannah, ⁓ who had a little bit of Formula One, Chi Colex, who had a little bit of soccer and stuff like that. There was there was like there was a sprouting of soccer and and of Formula One throughout the whole of the national. And then there was there was lots of us traveling over. that once we got there, there really wasn't much for us to sort of see and do unless we was doing it amongst ourselves. so when I put that proposal forward and said that what we would end up naming it was the International Pavilion, meaning that there would be a mixture of international vendors, soccer vendors, Formula One vendors. and they we then did nearly a year's worth of meetings. Talking, catching up, trying to figure it out. And then it comes to this national and massive thanks to North Shore and Lucas, ⁓ who who put us in a good introduction with with Al, who's very, very forward thinking in what he's got to look for for the national, that they want to grow stuff, they want to bring new people in. and I was allocated 35 tables to do that, which Looking back now is it is still crazy and and and and to have been given that opportunity was was incredible. And I took it with both hands. I I I I'd already previously been doing this at card shows within Europe, ⁓ gathering a what's what like a WhatsApp group of people, messaging card madness, messaging Kaiser Slauten show and stuff like this, and being like, Can I bring some people over together? We set up together, we help each other. ⁓ there's a couple of us that have done it in Asia already, and there's a bunch of us that do it at the Burbank show. So I'd already had previous knowledge that we could do it. So when I showed them them plans and they said, Yep, go ahead with it, start gathering your tables, gather all the information, and we'll we'll we'll work it from there. So, you know, I went through a list of people that we'd sort of worked with, had relationships with, because it's a big It's a big trust factor as well, mate. Like you're you're inviting people to put them on the biggest platform possible and your name's riding on it as well. So like it's and I ⁓ you know, once I'd already more or less picked the tables and picked the people and done it all. But once people had really heard that this was happening, the messages we got was just inundated with people wanting tables. and it just went crazy, which you know, i is very, very I'm very, very happy with and very grateful for. But yeah, being set up there, having the banner ⁓ above us, see seeing the guys from Germany, all the guys from Germany there, you know, King King of Hoops, Eric, who's obviously from the UK but from Hungary as well. yeah, it w it was incredible. Having the F one guys there, there was six or seven F one tables. ⁓ getting them their first ever presence at the main national. ⁓ you know, that that was incredible. And then just the actual amount of soccer that I'd ha that was able to be there was also a big bonus as well. So yeah. I I and I'm I'm very, very lucky that I've been granted the access for next year. ⁓ we've made it. It was a lot lot a lot of learning curves in the first year, like you do it like you like you do with everything, but like The last day of the national, we'd already been given our tables. That was it. You're locked in. You've been and done the ballot. You've got your tables. ⁓ I literally went round to the tables that that were there that we was able to keep and secured them, secured the the people and everything else. So next year's tables are already full, done, paid for, the showcases are all looked after. Because like there was learning things there as well. So you get your table, you have to book your showcases for other people. There's safes you have to book, electric. Wi-Fi. This there was early entry for some people. So some people could set up on the Tuesday. ⁓ there was other events going on, and some of the vendors didn't know that they needed to be there in the morning and stay till the end. It's it's a juggling act on your first year, but I think we've cracked it for next year already. And I'm all I'm already looking forward to it. Hotels are booked, and guys, if you haven't booked your hotels for the nationals next year. Get on and get your flights, get your get your hotels because they're already selling out. And I think that's what's absolutely crazy is that a year in advance, you can be sold out for a national. Yeah. It it seemed to have ramped up even more this year. ⁓ we went the year before, this one was ⁓ our first. And I think we booked it six weeks in advance and managed to get everything. This year, by we I think we booked it February time, everything was gone. Like the hotels and everything. We were about half an hour away in a Airbnb somewhere. I I I would agree with you. This year for me was definitely one of obviously standing behind the table was was a completely new experience. But just the level of numbers that we see and seeing seeing VIP tickets sell out, seeing all the different tickets sell out and stuff like that, I think we just knew that the hobby was in a very new position. And I would say that over the last 12 months from that other national, that the hobby has three, five, 10x, whatever it would be. And then there was so many new collectors coming into the card shows. And and the international pavilion for me was just you know as you yourself, you've got you've got a shop, you've got a brand, you started as suppliers. I remember meeting you guys very early on, and you guys were selling your your your different apparatus to help you display your cards, right? That's how you sort of entered the hobby and then grew from there. And I I I think seeing different brands and that develop, you've been created communities. them communities have had friends join. And I just think the development in doing that makes the the big event so much bigger as well. ⁓ it's definitely how did you find every the the international pavilion was accepted? Because I I think when we find we're doing deals over it in the US, they sort of treat you like a you know when someone plays football they bring like a younger brother. He's like cute. They sort of treat you like that until they realise you can actually sort of hang with them a little bit. I think the fact that I've been going to the national since 2022 and built relationships with most. I think I think it really depends who you're talking to there. I think it depends if you're talking to dealer to dealer or dealer to customers. ⁓ I think customers are gonna treat you either way. They either think we're from Australia or whatever else, just through the accent. ⁓ but if you've got the right cards and you're priced fairly correctly, they're gonna work with you and they're gonna want to do deals with you other customers. We'll just do that. Dealer to dealer, I think I've built some really, really good relationships over the years through through actually going to the card shows. I don't think, you know, I I I I've done most Dallas's. ⁓ I was at the very first Burbanks and I think that's that's that's held me in good stead with a lot of the dealers. ⁓ you know, it was called the Burbank card show, it's now called the West Coast Card Show. But for me, that show's developed tremendously. And I was just, again, I was very lucky that Me and my friend Helgi traveled over there and got the early tables because the way we actually see that was that by buying them early tables, they give you the grandfather rights. And that to me, I envisioned that the Burbank West Coast card show would be just as big as some of the other card shows. And that if you've landed your tables, you now get the early priorities. ⁓ and that's how I've managed to grow. sort of eight, 10, 12 tables at Burbank for for some of our friends and in the hobby and partners that we work with. And, you know, some of the Germans that also, you know, there's a big group of us actually going out next February, where I think we've got 10 or 12 tables for Burbank Card Show. So if if I didn't have them relationships and meeting the vendors, I think at first, at first, my very first Dallas and stuff like that, we got chewed alive. Like Gen genuinely, like we were selling at 7075. Although that was pretty close to what the market was at the time, we didn't really know any different to who to sell to or what to sell to. ⁓ we was just going over there, having fun and seeing it. And I think you learn you learn what what what dealers are doing repacking stuff, what dealers are buying specific stuff. You know, you can wait and ⁓ put your prices on it for customers. I think with the national Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, you're dealing a lot with dealer to dealers. So you need to decide if you want to sell at a lesser percentage or what your percentage is that you want to sell with. And then I think Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you're dealing with the customers. So you you can pick and choose whether you're giving a discount, where you where your margins are trying to be or not be, and and so forth. But no, for me, any of the international card shows now, I think we're all on a level playing field where We love this thing called the hobby. We love this thing called cards. And I think everyone treats each other just as just as good as each other. I don't think it matters whether some of these vendors have been doing it for 10, 15 years, some of us have only been doing it for five years, you know. And some some some some people have only been doing it 12 months still. And I think they get treated just as just as just as they would in anything else. I think if you carry yourself in the correct way. You you you learn what you're talking about and you know your prices that you need to be at. People will work with you as best they can. Yeah. I think the one thing I did enjoy that somebody wasn't checked with that much respect at the time was CLA getting done by kids like he does us two deals, if you know what I mean. Yeah. When he comes in trice hustling, yeah, it was fun watching him being the one hustled for once. Yeah. That was brilliant. But again, obviously ⁓ That was also one of my really, really proud moments was having having CLA there and watching father and son do deals together. I think I think and as young as he is, I think it's incredible. And and what he will learn, and I've said this to h his dad and spoke to him quite quite a lot about it, actually, is that it's it's a subject I really, really enjoy talking about because What he will learn at a card show or within this hobby, as in eye to eye contact talking and selling, the confidence to do a deal, the confidence to counteract, the confidence to say no, that card isn't for me, or no, that deal's not for me, and walk away and go into something else. What he will learn from the hobby and the respect from other people and the respect he shows, the politeness and everything else will just teach him so much more for later on in life. And I I ⁓ To be able to h invite him and his dad to to showcase and set up that that that was a big one for me. I I was really, really proud of that because ⁓ I thought it was a very special moment for all of us. Yeah, it's a dream, innit? Father and son going around the world doing that sort of thing. This week before. We we actually spoke just before the national, and I think you know, forgive me if I'm not saying the correct figures, but I think he said like there's there's a close point where he could be one of the highest earners in the household. Yeah. And I just love that. I thought, go on, kid, why not? ⁓ and see his dad backing him up as well. It there's no ⁓ there's a lot of support there and absolutely. So that actually comes from a really silly conversation of me once I'd had ⁓ a bit too much at one of the holiday ins ⁓ a few years back. And I I actually said to them, you know, give him give him a thousand, give him two thousand and let him go off and have fun with it and see how he gets on. And And now you look at and I think, wow, well done, kid. You know, you've you've hustled it, you've grinded it, you've built relationships. And and like I say, I think that's that's that's a main factor of what we'll he'll learn a lot from that for later on in life. And ⁓ you know, I I look forward to watching it. Yeah. I think one thing that stands out as well, to do it in NFL in a niche like that and do it that well in this country, I think it's it's another level, innit? It's not like you are you are absolutely spot on when you see it like that. The NFL is probably you you know, a lot less here than what it is in Germany and Europe, and also a lot less, way lot less than what it is in America. Yeah. Soccer is the predominant sport, and but there is there so that there's not as many NFL dealers, which gives him some advantage. But you you definitely have to grow your customer base to know if you're gonna buy and sell cards here doing NFL, you have to know who your end buyers are. Because not everything in the UK is about selling to a repacker. You know, like a lot of the stuff in America is we'll buy this, we'll buy this, we'll buy it this percent, we'll buy this, you know, this comp and we'll sell it to a repacker or this comp. I think in England and Europe, specifically Germany, I always use Germany because I think their collecting culture is just so much bigger than the rest. But you know, we we don't traditionally just sell to repackers. We we we sell to end collectors, end users. So I think the fact that the the NFL guys have managed to build the end users i is pretty impressive as well. Yeah. No, it's cool. You you mentioned going back to like the Burbank and and that side of it. How is that? Well, first, how does it compare to like ⁓ a card show over here? It's did you see what you're So so ⁓ the main the main shows I've done is Dallas, ⁓ Burbank card show, which is now the West Coast card show. I've done ⁓ The National, I've done Fanatics Fest and so forth. I would say the size of London card show when it's at the XL is a good Dallas. I would say the Sandown card show or the Yorkshire card show when it's in Birmingham is a good Dallas. ⁓ you know, sort of bare sizes. card madness and card venture in Germany is probably the size of Burbank. ⁓ so yeah, they're they're they're very close to that. You know, obviously I've done I've done the card show at Tottenham, which was our first ever try a card show. We then moved and we we we we've now partnered with Mark and Richard to do the sports card social, which is sports specific. It's a lot tougher. but we we really enjoy it and and we we we try and put on a good show that's just for sports cards. I like I learned to do that from Burbank. Burbank specifically only do Two sports card shows and then they do a mixed show. ⁓ and I I I always try and go out for the sports shows just because it's specific to what we try and do. Although I, you know, I'm a big TCG, I'm a big Pokemon fan, and you know, obviously as of late, Big Disney and Marvel, but ⁓ the specific stuff I'm looking to pick up is sports. So, you know, I try and try and angle into them shows. In my opinion, the West Coast card show is one of the best. It it really is. ⁓ I have a great time there. But I think that's I'm probably biased in the fact that I love California. I love the weather, I love the people. I can go down to San Diego, which I love and enjoy. I can go over to Vegas afterwards. It's just very convenient for me. Dallas is just so warm, it's so hot. I love it, but it's so hot. But the barbecue food there is incredible. The dealers are really good there at Dallas. Dallas for me flows a lot better. I like I but what I also like, and I I I pray to God we can find something like it in Europe at some point where the hotels are in the venue. You know, we're lucky that we have that at MK, but effectively MK isn't a big enough venue. It's not, right? We're we're already outgrown it for the sports card social. ⁓ but when you look at a a Dallas card show. You're in the hotel, it's got the swimming pool, you're down in the card show, everything's there. You can travel in. The Americans just make things very, very convenient. Everything's convenient. you know, the the the only thing with the national is the traffic. The national, the traffic is i i i in the morning and when it leaves, i i it is is hard. I'm not the biggest New York fan. I'm just not. I I don't, you know, I just I don't really like London. I don't like going into London. So You know, I'm not a New York fan, but the Javit Center is absolutely astronomically big. It's is mind-blowing and it's a fantastic, fantastic venue. I just wish it was somewhere else. Honestly, like that's all it would for me. ⁓ and and everyone's gonna have a different opinion ⁓ on what they think of that. ⁓ but for me, card shows, as in card shows, it would go. ⁓ Dallas, West Coast, National. I don't think anything compares to the National. I don't think it's even close. Dallas, the National will be top of that list. National is way top of my list for me, as in card shows. And I and I mention that because, you know, Dallas is a card show, West Coast is a card show, the National is a card show. Fanatics Fest for me, they do it better than anyone else in what they do. They are they are they are an experience and an activation of celebrities, athletes, different brands, and then a card show. The card show isn't the main focal point. And for me, honestly, when the the the two times I've been, it's it's an overload, it's a sensory overload. It takes me a couple of days to even settle in. But if you're going there to meet people like I went and met Palo Banquero, got his or graph, I loved it. I loved doing the WWE videos and stuff like that. Like if you're a WWE fan, I don't see why you wouldn't be At the Fanatics Fest, right? Like it's got everything for you. ⁓ so for me, Fanatics Fest is what it is. The National is what it is. I don't think you can compare the two because they're they're they're uncomparable. They're not going anywhere. Neither of them two shows should even be compared. The National is the best card show in the world. Fanatics Fest is the best experience in the world. And I think that's what it is. It's two different things, two different entities. And I don't see why you can't enjoy both. I really don't. If you've got the time and capacity to go over to Fanatics Fest, whether it's as a vendor or it's to go and enjoy the experience. For me, it's somewhere you take the kids, you take the family, and you go and enjoy the actual experience of Fanatics Fest. ⁓ national is you're into your cards. You're you're there to go and see the best cards available on the market at all times. And then sure, there's a breakers pavilion, there's some signings. ⁓ I can't personally say I've ever gone and done any of the signings at the national. So I don't know what that's like. But as far as cards and activations, card shows, the national is the best card show in the world for me. Yeah. I think I enjoy the national because you can geek out for five days. And no matter what you want to find out, like this year I must have spent two days just talking to vintage baseball dealers and they're not shy and telling you through talking you through everything and No, so they're like an old boys' club. Yeah. That that area of them is what I would vision a early London card show. Like it was the same 30 people that met up in the sports hall and Harry had arranged for us all to be there, right? Yeah, and that's how they must have started. Yeah. And they were the old boys' club that met up to look at their baseball cards, right? And then they've grown and grown and grown. And and and and just like Harry has, Harry's grown and grown and grown, right? And now he's in the XL. It's absolutely incredible. But that's how they would have started. Yeah. So to them, it's five days out with their friends talking about their baseball cards. ⁓ yeah. And they've got some baseball cards as well, aren't they? They've got everything. Like it that that vintage area is is you could you could spend, like you just said, one or two days just looking in that area and learning so much because we don't have that here. We don't have that in Europe. We don't have the really old vintage stuff. There's only a couple of vintage soccer collectors that We sort of talk to and know. so yeah, it i I think the National can really give you different things, right? Yeah. ⁓ definitely. Definitely. I think it was it's the first time I've ever seen six figure cards stacked in top loaders. Just like just sat there. Just casually sat there. And they let you touch them, they let you hold them, they let you look at them. Like these guys are really, really friendly. Like they're they're not they're not sitting behind the tables not talking to y'all. Even if you're a new collector, like they're they're happy to sit and discuss things and talk and They want to talk about it. It's there is there's five days to enjoy it. And I I think that's what's incredible about most of these card shows. I don't think there's ⁓ like, I don't think I've ever come across many dealers that won't help, even if it's they don't want to buy yours or you don't want to buy theirs, but they'll help you learn or or or give you some guidance at least. And I think that's that's what's really important about going off there. And what I will say is this year, with the national having the upstairs, to me, the upstairs was a collection of the new school sellers. It was the people that were ready to do deals. It was people that were in and out of inventory all the time. It represented to me a small Burbank and or a small Dallas card show all in one for five days. And I think that's what I really enjoyed about it was the fact that. It was the newer people that weren't just sitting on cards that they didn't really want to sell, which you can get downstairs. Downstairs there's cards that I've probably seen five years ago that they just don't want to sell them. And they don't need to. Upstairs was the in-and-out deals, the in-and-out stuff. So I think I think that's what was really nice about it was there was a lot more of the influencer type people up there. There was a lot more. social media type people up there doing videos, vlogs, YouTube and all that sort of stuff. ⁓ but there was an there was an incredible amount of deals and foot flow and traffic. And we was obviously worried that because it was going to be upstairs that we wouldn't get the foot flow and traffic. But there weren't a time when we was quiet, which was incredible to see. No, we worked quite a bit with SportsCard Nonsense, the podcast. And we were talking to them about it. And Jesse's all on like he loves the UK, that side of thing, but Mike's a little bit more hesitant and I think when he saw people they saw the tables and again the we can compete and there's not just five pound of cards kicking about. He but I think that that that that that's only come around in the last couple of years. Yeah. Like I would say I would say two two last two years the UK's developed in this not just high end but good quality stuff. And it isn't all about the high end. I didn't have just high-end stuff of the national. ⁓ but I had good quality stuff that worked for me. And I and you're right. You you are right. The UK was known as people that would have raw cards, cheaper stuff, you know, binders and stuff like that. And I think we're starting to make a punch now where we can play the game just as much as you guys. And yeah, I think I think we're making a sounding. I think you see it on content a lot more as well. You've got obviously Cardinal with the Wemby, you've got you And out there, you've got edition one and that sort of thing. It's people that are bringing the good stuff, not like you say, not just the not particularly high end, but good stuff where you you know it's gonna sell. It's not just stuff that's worth three grand, but you need to find the right person in years' time, if you know what I mean. So it was good to say all that. ⁓ if you were someone in the UK now, so say like we've never vended over. In the US, where would you suggest we would start looking to go? Celebank culture. Yeah, straight off. Million percent. No, not even hesitant. Yeah. It's affordable. It's I think six to seven hundred bucks. The flights are easy to get. Hotel is fairly reasonable. ⁓ and you'll don't like I say I say on both sides. I say to the Americans not to come to the UK with cards only in mind. Because sometimes you can be disappointed. Come as a holiday, enjoy yourself, go out with friends, build connections, then the card show. And I would say the same to anyone going out to America for a card show as their first time, even as a vendor. Go out there, set up, lay your cards out. Even if you don't sell a card, interact with every single person that comes to the table. Interact with everyone that you meet and talk to and learn who they are. Follow their social medias. Take away from the card show more relationships. Then you do just worry about selling your cards or buying cards because it will pay dividend to the next time that person sees you. But for me personally, the West Coast Card show, which is obviously I say Burbank, but it's the West Coast Card Show, they do ⁓ one in Ontario, one in Anaheim. If you do the one in Ontario, it's a little bit more out of the way. ⁓ Anaheim is right next to Disney. You can go and do Disney and stuff like that. I always recommend spending a couple of days downtown. Going to the Burbank card store, going to LA card store. You know, Burbank itself, and that that small area of LA has has six hobby stores, all in one area. And I think the fact that you've got that concentrated area of stores just shows you how popular the hobby is. ⁓ Burbank really is the mecca of card stores. I don't think there's any question about that. ⁓ watching them, watching Ryan and Rob grow their stores over the last couple of years. ⁓ it i it is just it's just wild to see the numbers you yourself of a card store, that's sort of your aspiration to grow into and learn from. ⁓ and I learned a lot from Ryan when I was out there ⁓ and Sasha and the guys about buying and selling and stuff like that. I think there's a lot to learn from going to Burbank and West Coast. ⁓ and I yeah, without without even a shadow of a doubt, it wouldn't even be a question to me, that would be the first card show to go and visit. plan and if you are interested in like I'll put this out there now. If any of you are interested in doing the West Coast card show and you want to find out how to do it, drop me a DM on Instagram, the Hobby Box Loot Curtis. I'll be happy to help you put you in the right place, even try and get you a table with us or a showcase with us to start. You know, we've had London City Cards Alex out there with me and Ben. We've had, you know, various different people come out and travel with us and And just be set up. You're welcome to go and do whatever you want, but at least if you're setting up a card show, you kinda want to know you've got people next to you or behind you that can look after your staff, help you. You it might be money you need, like money understanding the money transactions, understanding you know, ⁓ they won't take PayPal, can you help with this? And when there's more of you, it's a lot easier to get stuff done. So yeah, n new new person in the UK or Europe travelling out, go and look at West Coast card show for sure. And then Going into Europe, if they don't want to go as far as US, I know you you do a lot in Germany. Yeah. The first one we did with Card Madness was the with you over there. Yeah. ⁓ wow. Did we did did ⁓ wow, yeah. You did that with us the Christmas one. Yeah. I don't know if you know. Wow. The trip to B Brothers is what started us getting a shop. Wow. That's incredible. We I lost my suitcase and that had all the stock in it we had for the show. And all we had was the briefcase, like the line case. So we set up selling and then we realized how much easier it was to sell cards and top loads. From there, then we went to be brothers. That is probably the first experience. Now, let's roll back a little bit. Yeah. That was Card Madden this very first ever card show. They were brand new to setting up a big card show like that. I was good friends with the guys that did it and managed to build a relationship to where again I said, Can I take, I think They they needed the support. Not that they need it now in any way, shape, or form. Cause Carl Madis is gigantic. But at the time, I think they were just skeptical and nervous to what they were trying to achieve. And I said, Sod it, give me, I think it was 20 tables. It was saying stupid, right? And then I actually realized, ⁓ crap, how am I gonna fill 20 tables? So I remember giving you guys had a table, and I think we just changed the table around. ⁓ but I remember giving a bunch away. It was gas, it was like bear hit hidden. Even Enzo and Jason from Ireland, them guys were there. That was incredible. That was a great time. And then yeah, we all went out in the evening to the Bee Brothers store. ⁓ Kiki and Ivan, to me, that place is awesome. If you haven't been out to Germany, that's the place to go. But yeah, I there's a few different card shows in Germany now. You've got the Berlin card show, which is pretty good. ⁓ free three stories high. It's gonna be two days next year. ⁓ Card Madness. They're already selling tickets for 2027, 2028, and 2029. So the the European scene is absolutely massive. But my personal favorite previously to now is the cardvention. ⁓ that is the one that's been in Kaiserslauten. Now, it's probably impossible for any of you to find how to get a table and ticket for it because they actually arrange it through their grading company. GSG is a German grading company, kind of like what we have here in the UK. We have MGC, AGS, PCG, we have these companies. They have GSG over in Germany. It's probably one of their biggest in Europe. And they actually run their own card show, which they've done for all the local Germans basically. ⁓ I was just very lucky that I got in with Helgi, Kiki, and Ivan, and Andre gave me a table at the time. And I've sort of retained my tables over the years. ⁓ but if you're trying to find that card show and find out I had to get a ticket and table. Unless you're fluent in German, it's very difficult. But it sells out immediately because they're 40, 40 euros for a table. It's the cheapest around. It's just for collectors. They don't run it as a business for a card show. They just run it for collectors. ⁓ but I do believe they're expanding this year, and we have spoken about trying to broaden it and and maybe me helping them out in making it a little bit more English, European. USA friendly to get more people there. ⁓ but for me, I think any of the European shows you're going to, if you can get into card venture, card madness, the Berlin card show, they're they're they're good staple card shows. I think Paris card show. Me and me and your partner drove all the way over there one time to drop off some card stands and stuff like that. I think if you're south, if you're south and you can just drop on on the Eurotunnel and go across, I think Paris card show is lovely. ⁓ we've been doing that quite a few years. we've this this month we've got the Poland card show coming up, the Nordic card show coming up, Budapest has the Hungarian Expo. so yeah, there's there's plenty now. You can all Austria's got their own card show. I'm probably gonna get attacked from one country that I haven't mentioned, their card show. I think. ⁓ but yeah, there's there's plenty now that you can stay within Europe. I think there was just a show in Alicante that looked really good. Italy's got their own ones. I think if you want a weekend away, and I think if you treat it as a weekend away with some friends or your partner, go and have some nice meals, go and see some sites, and then go to a card show. I think you can make them really, really enjoyable. Dublin for me is one of the best as well, without a shadow of a doubt. I think what Enzo and Jason do over there, they're the most laid-back pair you've ever come across. And I just love Dublin. I think it's awesome to get over there and do a card show. So yeah. You Europe Europe has plenty to offer. ⁓ how again, talking like the if you're the first one, if you're going out for your first one, you got your tips or tricks for people with the language barrier or anything like that. US to be honestly, apart from Yeah, no, yeah. So you're talking as a vendor or collector? Either or whichever. Mixed Royal. As a collector, leave your PC at home. I always say this, leave your PC at home. What is it? Well, isn't prepared to be being sold, don't bother bringing it. you know, because you're always tempted then to to to maybe sell it. ⁓ and ⁓ you you always kind of regret selling a card afterwards if you didn't really want to sell it. ⁓ bring the amount of cash that you can afford to bring, 'cause cash is always king for any country. Don't matter where you are. Cash is definitely the the the the the the currency everyone wants, ⁓ and will definitely help you get more deals done. ⁓ I think when you're going up to a dealer, don't ask what their bottom price is if they've already put a sticker price on it. They're telling you their price. If you want to make a fair offer, they would more they ⁓ a and this comes from me being a vendor. I'd appreciate it more if you said where you want to be. I've already told you where my price is. And I think I think I I think that helps, you know, if you just walk up to someone and go, ⁓ what's your lowest? I don't really think it helps make a deal happen. I think if you say, ⁓ can I make you an offer or have you got any room? That usually helps rather than just going, wash your lowest. ⁓ I think just talking to people, adding people on social media for me makes every trip worthwhile because you just really never know what deals you'll get done after the card show. Not everything has to be transactional on that day. I think that's really, really important that not everything you do needs to be on that weekend, that you may make deals a week after from that card show. and don't Be disappointed if you go and there isn't any cards for you at that show. I don't think that's a representation on the card show. You might find them at another card show. ⁓ you know, I always try and tell people that, you know, get to the trade nights, into interact with people is interacting with people is probably my biggest, biggest tip for all. Because you'll you'll end up finding stuff or talking to stuff and learning stuff more from that than than just trying to do that. Vendor, as a vendor, put prices on your cards. Put pri I don't care what currency you want to put them in. I really don't care whether they're in, you know, I'm I'm going to Poland this weekend and my currencies will be in USD. I try and use USD as much as I can because when we look up comps on card ladder and so forth, it's in USD. And then I translate my currencies afterwards. but just put a price on, even if it's an astronomical price, put a price on something rather than. Rather than getting asked a hundred times to show show how much is that card, how much is that card? How much is that card? If you don't have a price for the card, don't put it in the showcase. I think it's a waste of both people's times. ⁓ but if you put prices on stuff, I think with the day and age right now where repackers are prominent, that if you put a price on it that's fair, you'll get cleaned out rather quicker than you would not have in prices the time is money for a repacker. And they want to get round to every table and clear out what they can. And they will know what stuff they're looking for at what price point. And they will know what they can buy and what they can't buy, right? ⁓ some of the easiest deals you get with repackers, isn't it? This is way easier. Even me on both sides of that. I do my own repack and I sell to repackers. So both sides of that, that ⁓ you know, I know how easy it is for me when I meet up with clients and and buy their cards if they've got prices in mind. Everything's priced up and I sort of know what range of cards I need and what they need to look like. you know, then you can be a little bit more picky. and I think on the other side, when you're selling to a repacker, if you've got your prices in order and you're you're organized, you'll make far better and quicker deals. If it's a card that you think isn't for a repacker, it's more of a niche collector card, put your price on it and hold out for the right collector. I think that's the best. Yeah, million percent. So then going on to soccer, which is or football, soccer, how you know big a big part of the business you got. How have you found it since the World Cup? Going through on it's obviously big in Fanatics best. There was a lot more at the national. It seems to I don't think it's quite held where it was at the World Cup, but it doesn't seem to have dropped off like we expected. I think certain stages have dropped off. I think the high end has stayed up there pretty well. Your mole was the most player that was tried to be sold to me out of anything else, which I was surprised about. ⁓ I don't think I've ever been offered as many Yamol cards as I had been. the prices in auctions, so I try and look at Alt, Fanatics, eBay, as in the auction sites to what's happening. And I would say anything under the 5k barrier, a sort of drop 15, 20%. Anything over that hasn't really moved much either way yet. And I think I think I think the next couple of weeks will be key because the football season starts. Are the people that were holding certain soccer cards going to move out of them and now move into NFL and NBA and so forth? Has the has the World Cup fever died off? I don't know yet. We'll wait and see. but yeah, it's it's dropped a little. Which was always to be expected because soccer really did go like that. It really did take off into a s you know, a high percentage of growth. You know, some cards were five, six, seven X in before the World Cup. ⁓ who who who's now holding them cards to go into the next couple of years when it's not going to be as popular? I I was very pleased with how the Americans took the World Cup. I was really, really pleased with the fact that the stadiums were getting full, even though people were moaning about the prices, the prices can't have been that bad if people were still filling the stadiums, right? So there's definitely a market there in in ⁓ in America, Mexico and Canada fill these stadiums. ⁓ and I think that support just carried over into the sports card, the collectible market and everything else that goes with that. but yeah, I I'm definitely got my eye on certain things that I think will come back down. And I think if you're holding big cards, you need to either be prepared to hold them for a long time. Next is going to be Euros. But I I also really like the question I really ask myself is the next World Cup, does it have the same velocity of growth as what the Americans brought? Because the Americans are the card collectors. The Americans are the hobby at heart. They're the ones that really grow everything. And I I'll explain a little bit more about that. When we go on to another subject, but the Americans get behind something, it goes. Because they just do it in numbers. And and that's what really, really takes things off. And I I I I know like Pulisic's prices are down crazy. Yeah, he's like Captain America. So how? How how like if the Americans are so behind it, how is his prices so far down? I think your Messi's, your Ronaldos, they will they will hold. I think certain rookies will certainly hold. I think there's enough people holding their cards. They're not looking to get rid of them anyway. But the high-end Ronaldo and Messi, that market's pretty safe with the people that are holding it. You know, you've got some really big collectors that have their really key cards. ⁓ you know, I I see Owl's table at the national. ⁓ we had Hobby G Grant set up next to us ⁓ for a couple of days. And speaking to them guys, they're not looking to get out of soccer anytime soon. And, you know, I think that's very Prevalent, you know, Ben, Cook Hype, myself. We've got some big big soccer cards still, and they're not going anywhere. There's certain cards that I don't need to release or or want to get rid of. ⁓ and I and I know the same for Ben and Cook Hype as well, George. so yeah, there's plenty of people that still have really big cards that aren't going to move them, look to move them. But I just think you're under 5k, potentially under 10k, that middle ground there. is gonna have some movement. But it could be a buyer. It once it drops, it could be a buyer. So do you think it's just a matter of keeping the US interested in football long term? Do you think that I I I I I do, but or or the growth has to come throughout Europe to understand the collecting. You know, I I still do believe that Europe and UK is very much a gambling mentality to buy cards, hit cards, sell cards. You know, actually understanding as a asset investment Holding it as an asset in investment is very like the Americans understand that they can progressively gain money on an investment card than just flipping it. ⁓ and what I noticed more and more at this national was that people were trying to buy the goats. Your Jordan, your Kobe, your LeBron, your your your Babe Ruth, your your Tom Brady's, your Messi's Ronaldo's. They were really trying to buy the goats. And good key cards of the GOATs. They wasn't trying to prospect. They wasn't trying to pick up all the rookies ready for the season. I think I think the Americans really want to buy the sharp money and the money that makes sense to them. So well, because they knew if they hold it for another two years, that the asset's going to go up in value. Yeah, definitely. Cause I think one thing that surprised me, Yamal, just before the the World Cup, the first game, I think he had something like a 18% drop in price on Cloud Ladder. Must have just been everyone clear now I see being offered sort of money. Yeah, so that would but that would also be to do with the auction houses because they arranged World Cup auctions, right? So they actually have like I I think one auction house had like twelve hundred soccer cards for one auction. Like to me, that's a bloodbath in certain cases because certain things were a buy. And if you know what you're looking for and you follow the auctions enough, you could you could really pick up some nice little gems that were ready for the World Cup in that auction because There's only so much money to go across an auction. There's only so many eyes to go across it, right? So if certain people are only bidding on the higher stuff, the middle stuff can get left alone and end up going quite cheap and cheaper ⁓ in comparison to what it maybe would have done if it was run in a different auction. ⁓ so yeah, that that drop off can only be the fact that so many auctions were run at one time. Yeah. We we sort of had the idea that if we might be wrong as well, but like we thought if a lot of people have pulled big in breaks and there's that on a card that they're 100 pounds into. They don't mind taking that little bit of a loss to to get rid of you know what I mean. If it's a five K card, they don't mind taking three, four, that sort thing. Because they're up anyway, are they? I think I think people that are in breaks from Europe, they would definitely try and liquidate their money quicker than the Americans. You know, Americans can hit in a break and still really hold on, ⁓ because they they they maybe believe in that player or whatever else. But Yeah. Europe and UK love to sell their card quick to to to to get their money back, to to to get liquid again, whether it's gonna be for more spending on breaks, buying boxes, buying singles, or just paying some of their bills, you know? Like a lot of this does come down to how much free money does people have anymore, you know? Like it's it's it's interesting to see, but Yeah, I I I always believe that the Asian market and the USA market understand things as a collectible asset a lot more than they do in Europe. Do you think some of that is down to experience as well though? I think it's education. I just think it's education. I think the Americans will collect anything. They'll collect bottle caps. They'll collect like they they just collect. The Americans love to collect. I think the Asians comes down to education. I think they're very well educated in understanding the growth of holding stuff and ⁓ and things like that. I think the UK and Europe specifically, Germany may be a little bit different in the fact that early nineties they collected a whole lot of basketball. And I think a lot of the German collectors have great basketball cards that they're into for very, very little. So they're not always easy to get them cards from because they don't need to move them, if that makes sense. You know, they're into them for quite little. Whereas the education for the UK is that we we teach people just to enter breaks. Yeah. We teach people just to rip a box. We pe we teach people just to buy box and we don't actually teach them about completing a set or collecting a player or putting stuff away, you know, as an asset. Or, you know, is this money what is this money you're using? Is this money that is completely disposable and you want to find something to invest in? Or are you using it to gamble when you've hit a card? Like there's I think there's two very different educational purposes that we need to try and work on in the UK. It's fun to break, it's fun to rip, and it's fun to like if that's what your disposable money is allowing you to do, go rip a box, go go go enter a break with your friends, whichever streamer it is you want. Sometimes I enter some breaks where I just I enjoy the streamer. I enjoy an hour of watching that streamer. And and that's where I'll enter my break. It's not whether I think I'm gonna hit or lose or whatever else. I'm just gonna spend an hour watching the breaker and have have a have a good time. Boxes, I'm I'm not as much ripping boxes nowadays, ⁓ just because the wax price has got pretty crazy, in my opinion, for what you can return. And I would say after five years in the hobby that you learn what's a good rip and what isn't a good rip, ⁓ to what you can actually return financially. as opposed to spending if you if you spent five hundred on a on a on a box, whether it's at retail or resell, whatever you want to call it, ⁓ or spending five hundred pounds on singles, I would now prefer, because my hobbies evolved, I would prefer to spend five hundred pounds on singles. ⁓ and I think there has to be two two thoughts to what you're buying. Are you buying it 'cause you enjoy it or are you buying it 'cause you think it's an investment? And I think they're two different things. You know, me buying a Mill Wall card because I enjoy Mill Wall is me buying a Mill Wall card. Me buying a LeBron because I think it's going to go up over the next couple of years is an investment. Two different categories of money. And I think the education in doing that is very different. In America, they understand it already. You've got you've got you've got eight, nine, ten-year-old kids that are running around with fifty, sixty grand in cash buying and flipping cards. We haven't got that. You know, we have kids coming up to us trying to do trade-up challenges for base cards. Yeah, you know, like it's a very different mentality. ⁓ the young kids in America that you see, they are very astute on what they're doing, they're very sharp. They know cards ladder, they know ult, they know how to check certificates, they know what they're trying to buy and sell, they know cards ladder values, they're they're quick. They're and and and because they're kids, you look at them a little bit differently, but they're sharp as hell. They're they're on it. And I think the education that comes from Us taking a kid to a card show to have some fun and them taking kids to a card show to buy and sell and trade are two different things. It's one thing I've got from I'm in a shop, my lad's just turned seven. And like he's quite shy dude, not too dissimilar to me. But like you put him in the card shop and he'll haggle with everyone. Like everything. And now he's taking it on, so everything's a negotiation. But you just do this, how much? You know, I bit it. No, it's not like I think that's something I've taken from that and brought it. But because I think, like you say with your CLA as well, if I knew now what I knew about when it was fifteen, sixteen, different life completely. Correct, correct. And I think I think I think I think that's awesome to hear that he's taking what you do and learning from it and it and implementing it. And I think I think I think we could learn a lot more from that. And and but also the mums, the mums I see at the card show that are like, wow, that's a thousand, that's five hundred, that's that. I think If they understood more about it, that they would then want to educate the children. I also still really feel like, and you, you probably understand this as well, there's so many people throughout England that don't respect this as a job. They still see this as a bit of fun and a and a hobby. And yet there are people out here that are earning very, very, very nice wages. And making this a full-time living. More and more people in the last 12 months have turned this into a full-time job. And I'm not just talking about breaking. I'm not just talking about buying a box and ripping it on whichever platform it is. I don't, I don't care which platform it is, it doesn't really matter. I not just breaking. You know, there was a kid at the card show that was running around charging $5 to clean your showcase. There is money to be made at every avenue. Whether it's a middleman as a grader, whether it's selling supplies like you guys did, consignments now. There's so many ways to make money and turn this into a job if you want it to to be that. and and I've I really hope that over the next couple of years people look at this as a real job. Because buying and selling cards is an art form ⁓ and an understanding of of what you're trying to do. But it There is a and I I will wanna the only the only thing I will say to that is being in it for the last five years, I've seen the peak of COVID, the drop off of after it, where it was literally hard as hell for two years, and now we're in that up cycle again where everyone can buy a card and three months later is making money, right? Everyone. Show me who can make money in the downward market. Show me who can still make money when the market turns and it's not as glorious. Yeah. We always go through cycles of customers. We all go always go through cycles of breakers. I've seen breakers come and go. I've seen customers come and go. I've seen them come back around. Do you know what I mean? Like it just happens. People, customers come, they, they, they maybe don't do so well the first time around. They sell up, they leave, they come back, they try something different. And I think over the next Next 12 months to 18 months, I think it's going to be very, very key to learn who can do this as a job, who can understand the markets. It's not all about just getting a box from allocation or case from allocation and breaking it or buying secondary and breaking it. I think building a brand, building relationships is way more important for going forward now. And the reason I like the singles, the reason I like buying and selling the singles is no one else is in community. control of that other than you. And I I would suggest more people start buying and selling singles than they do breaking wax. You know, wax, wax and distribution, whether it's through GTS, Panini, Thompson Fanatics, whoever it's through, is not always a guaranteed route to the golden ticket. It is not. You can work hard and not get there, right? It can it can depend on your spending. It can be dependent on your brand. It can be dependent on many things to why you can't get allocation and distribution, right? But with singles, you can just rock up to a card show. You can rock up with a thousand pounds, five hundred pounds, and have on, buy cards, make relationships and sell them at the card show. No one can stop you doing that. No one. So for me, singles is the way forward because no one can no one can stop you in that market. You can build a brand around your singles. You can build relationships around them singles. You can build your social media around singles and you can You can you can evidently build your business, you know. Prime example is Ben BHA. ⁓ two years ago, you know, was was was a good dealer, probably didn't have the largest inventory. He's now doing million pound deals. It's ridiculous, isn't it? The the screen of it. It's hard work and it's relationships keys. And I remember and again. A reason I speak so highly of him is the fact that he reached out. I want to come to a card show. I want to go to this card show. He put himself in the firing line to go and do stuff. Another one, you know, two of the Germans I have a hell of a lot of respect for is Zipster and Dons. You know, Zipster, I met I met Zipster at the German trading card store. I cashed him out for about 35, 40k. And I remember him telling me, wow, that was that that's my inventory. That's my bankros. Yeah. And now he's buying half a million pound cards with Dons and ⁓ and Roth. So you you dedicate yourself to singles. You don't worry about the brand deals, the the the allocation and distribution. I think you just focus on what you enjoy, the markets that you enjoy, and then grow from there. So Yeah. But it's one thing that helps. It's one of the reasons why we start the podcast is like chats like this is what we have. You have weekly at shores. And like all the information that everyone has, and there's a lot of places where like there'll be a Pokemon vendor and a sports vendor that won't speak, but their advice from one to another still translates. Yeah, absolutely. That's where I I I'm pretty sure I could sit here for another hour and two hours and three hours and give you jump just just information on allocation of product, but that's not what we ⁓ you know, that's not not not what today's today's conversation's about. But yeah, there is but there it I'm very lucky that I've been around for long enough to where I've learned it, I've understood it, and I've implemented what now works for me. And and there was there was definitely a couple of years where I was finding my feet still. ⁓ I didn't really know which avenue I was gonna want to take or take. I was battling with my own self and battling with other people to try and see where I fitted. And now I thought I think I've decided that I know where I am, I know what I can do, I know what I'm good at. And and the relationships that I've built through that are more more important than anything else. So yeah, v the tip tip after tip after tip comes down to relationships, mate. Yeah. It's that harsh is for classes thing as well, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get me wrong, like I've seen some really, really good breaking companies open over the last two, three years that that have either worked with another company to get their product, they're buying it and they're growing. And and good luck to it, like Good luck to everyone that wants to try and make a living in this. Like you you just have to take your hat off to everyone. There is so much different spaces that can create your income. Go and do it. Go and do it. Go and give it a go. Yeah. The only thing I'd learn a bit about business as well. Protect yourself. One thing like I think we've seen people come and go, it's that thing of people will come in, they'll do well. Learn what to do with that. Cash flow and things like that. Try preempt what problems you're gonna have, and then I think you'll you'll inevitably last longer in the hobby. ⁓ but going, we'll go from that and we'll go to I think one of your favourite subjects at the minute, Topscrum Disney. Top Scrum Disney is definitely gonna be Topscrum Disney is a great subject right now. I think ⁓ yeah, I'd love to talk more about Top Scrum Disney. I think roll roll it back to when it first released, it was just before. Just before Christmas, and I remember the the sale sheet. So what a sale sheet is, most of the distributors will get given a pre-sale sheet of what the product is, what is going to come out. And then there's there's different Instagram accounts that will post this information out, and you'll sort of know what the product is, what the RRP is, what the hits are, and stuff like that. So I see that and it was topps chrome Disney. And I just come off the back of doing very, very well. Off of Caca Wow Disney. Okay, so there were two people that influentially told me to do Kacawau Disney. It was Plaza, which is Josh Ramos, and ⁓ Sasha T. And we was at we was at ⁓ a a card show and they said jump on these cake cases of caca wow, they were like seven fifty each. The original Cacawell, the first year Disney Cacawell Chrome. There was the cases $750 on eBay. And I remember buying 25 cases. And Joshua bought a lot, ripped a lot. Sasha was buying them, holding them to sell. And this was when I was in San Diego a lot. And I think the cases ended up going up to like 5,500 each when we sold them all. So it was like, wow, this Disney does well. Roll that around tops finally bring out their Disney 100. Tops Chrome Disney 100, for anyone that don't, I'm sure you all know now because there's enough people that have done done content on it, but Tops Chrome Disney 100 was a UK exclusive. They didn't have the licensing rights to go off and do it everywhere else, which I think we'd be in a very different position if they did originally. So this was only available in Europe and Europe distribution. Speaking of distributors, what we spoke about earlier, there's probably, at the time, there's probably 15 to 20 distributors that can really get this product within Europe. it's just before Christmas. The hobby's not a bit of a lull. The hobby isn't really pumping. and there's a lot of products. And 2020 ⁓ would was like early, everyone had their early money, then it dropped off. So when Disney Chrome first come out. A lot of the distributors, not they didn't have a lot of money, but they would buy a product from their allocation on invoice. They would sell it to get their money for their next invoice. And they would a lot of the a lot of the distributors were growing themselves. ⁓ so they would move their product pretty quickly. Now, this this product came up, and I spoke to my team, and we was like, we want to go heavy on this. I messaged nearly every distributor, every retail seller. You're talking blowouts, David Adams, you're talking Steel Cities. I bought every website I could find. I went on eBay, bought all the pre-sales. In in the end, we ended up with 110 cases just before the release. So even before the release, we had that locked in. and these were at 200 and I want to say 215 pounds a box. Or like, because I think the RIP was like 250, 260, something like that. ⁓ so we had it a little bit less than than recommended retail price, which nowadays is rare to find. You can't find it. So we managed to really take a lot of it. And over the Christmas period, breaks were happening, and we we we we went on to do incredible with the breaks. You know, we was one of the only ones really within the UK doing it. And over that Christmas period, we basically cancelled Christmas and New Year's. Because we just knew we had to ride that wave of new product and and sort of move move it out there as quickly as possible. and and the following behind it was incredible then. ⁓ but I don't think we ever realized just how big it would get, you know. ⁓ there wasn't so many of the big players. The Americans weren't interested at all. I I don't really remember our many American customers getting involved in the breaks. Few of the Asians, predominantly Ice, Ice, Ice. He was very heavily involved with us. He was buying boxes from James and Will at the time. ⁓ and the bearing in mind, these boxes reached like 450, 500. So people were like doubling the money. I'm very happy with that. Even me, I was reselling cases at 5500, 6500, 7500. Like every week they were bumping up. And and and we would work through them and stuff like that. Then then it sort of just died off and sort of forgot about. And I I sort of kept a bunch of my cases back and just, you know, once you've you know, as a as a breaker, you do. You sort of leave cases in storage and whatever else. 2024 comes out and we actually found it really, really difficult to buy cases. I think every because this one, everyone had sort of realized that the numbers it could do. So everyone sort of bought it. So it became a lot more harder for me personally. To get as much. ⁓ a year later, distributions changed. Wave one, wave two had been implemented. So people, you could buy a product at one price on first wave, then it would be more expensive on wave two. And people just didn't really know how to take that as distributors. ⁓ breaking it again. There was actually a there was actually a point where we lost money on breaks for the for for the second year Disney. Because I'd bought it so high that we just couldn't break it. ⁓ and then Sapphire come out. Sapphire went crazy. The reason I really, really enjoyed 2020, you know, the second year Disney was that it had full bleeds of the characters. There was no border. It was just a true true portrait is what you would class it as. And if you're watching in basketball or baseball terms, baseball terms, 20 like the the first year Disney would be classed as your sort of, you know. Your Bowman Chrome, your first Chrome. Second year would be your rookie, right? So it depends how you want to look at the product. But and then Sapphire come out, and that was actually first year Sapphire. And then after that, I saw I personally stopped collecting and chasing the Disneys ⁓ because I just see like too many subsets being released. ⁓ And having too many subsets for me just sort of washed out the collectibility of it. I did really well at collecting 2020 Formula One and Formula One ⁓ Sapphire. I did 2021 Formula One and Sapphire. After that, I sort of stopped again. So it was, it was very much the same pattern that I'd used for Formula One, first year Chrome, Disney, first year Chrome. So it had many green flags for me: European exclusive, first-year Chrome. The Disney IP is way bigger than I think people ever realize. The collectibility through Disney. And even now, I'm learning more about the Disney collector side of things in the fact that people collect like the pins. When you go to Disney, you can buy the pins. These are selling like rare Disney pins sell for a thousand, two thousand, three thousand dollars. If the pin collectors start to understand the collectible market, we're in trouble because it's gonna go even even wilder. Now What I did get lucky with was the fact and and people asked me ⁓ last couple of weeks, you know, what preempted you to really push it over the last few weeks was we got lucky in the fact that PSA took so long. Because if PSA would have returned when he should have done, I would have sold all of these in January, February at the Burbank show. PSA delayed, I wasn't going back out to America till the West Coast Card Show and the National. And then in between, then it was yourselves that released a video on Instagram about a case either selling or was gonna sell. I can't remember the exact video, but it was like a case of Disney Chrome 2020, like the first year 2023. I'd sold at London Card Show XL for like 30k. And I remember seeing that video and being like, I've still got 20 odd cases here. This is Now nuts. Like, okay, what's happening? In amongst my group of circle of friends, in January, I'd been posting up saying that I'm buying Disney. I cashed a few people out, I cashed winning mentality out. I'd been to the kaboom shop and bought a bunch of their Disney. I'd just been buying Disney at card shows and Marvel with the preempt that I was going to the national and I wanted something different at the national card show. That that was like The the the thinking behind it was if we buy enough of this now, we take it to the card show is something different. ⁓ and we'll go from there with it. Did you expect the boom to come with it or was it just ⁓ so you had some? Once you went once I'd heard the price of the case, I knew something was happening. I didn't fully know what at the time, but I knew something was brewing. I knew Kaboom had what so from from the moment you released that video and said that the case had done 30k. I go on dealer net. For anyone that don't know what dealer net is, it's like a directory of cases that are for sal for you to buy and sell. It's like dealer to dealer, B2B. ⁓ there was none available. No cases available, no single boxes available. And I was like, wow, okay. who who else has got cases? I looked on David Adams, no cases. Looked on blowout, no cases. Still city, no cases. On eBay, there was one case, and that was Kaboons. Kaboom had their case still on eBay, but I knew they weren't really looking to sell that. I'd spoken to Johnny about it a few times and they weren't looking to sell it. I knew that Enzo and Jason either had a case or they had single boxes because when we was over for the Dublin Card show, they had them in one of their showcases at the store. And I remember asking them, Have you got any cases still? so I knew there wasn't much out there. The only other people that potentially had cases was ⁓ Wolf of Trading Cards, Dennis from Germany, Sean from high-end case breaks over in America. And we were probably the very early adopters of 2023 in that we were holding cases, ripping cases, and collecting the cards. Sean's obviously got one of the best red, well, he's got the only full red collection. ⁓ Dennis had hundreds, if not thousands, of different cards and slabs. I had thousands of slabs ⁓ that we'd picked up. And I also had Some very high end growl pieces. I knew that our friend Gags had a good collection of stuff as well. So I knew Ice Ice obviously had ⁓ 2024 locked locked down, ⁓ as far as market control, as in he'll have 10 of the same card. So he owns the population of that card, right? Like if you want to get a card, good luck. Like they don't come up. ⁓ And then I think that mixed with the social media aspect of pushing it, the the the the big sell, the big sell of the Mickey PSA ten ⁓ out of twenty-eight really changed the market. I think that did 50 odd or whatever it was, from Mamba. Mamba bought it or sold it, one of the two, whatever it was. ⁓ that sell there triggered an off effect in the market to say, ⁓ wow. What are the rest? Because if a if a high-end card does this amount, then the rest of it should also grow. Yeah. Then when you look at certain cards and populations through 2023, you notice that the pops in PSA 10 are just under 20. Like if you you go you go and find any of the out of 50 PSA 10s, the majority of them are lower than 20 pops. Some of them will pop one. Well, so if you're a set collector. And then bearing in mind that's what Disney was for many people. It was a it was completing the sets. The cold set was the most popular. You you would have base base PSA 10, refractor PSA 10. They were they were probably the easiest at the time. The out of 100 set was probably the most prestigious because it's the hundredth year of the hundredth product. You're never gonna get it again. Yeah. Then the out of 50 was like for most people, that's what we'll collect. Then the out of 28, because of the black and red, ⁓ that was like a colour match. That that that sort of took off. ⁓ the out of tens, the black wave out of tens graded so bad that most people didn't like I know Gags had 30 or 40 of them. I've got 30 or 40 of them. I think Dennis has the same or sold them now. But and and obviously Sean's done the red collection. So with Sean doing the red collection, the out of fives are no longer out of five, they're out of four. Yeah. Because there's one of them gone. So, like when you look at the pop count, so say, say, for example, you're trying to complete the out of 50 set and you're down to however many characters it is you need, and lotso, for example, when a PSA 10, I don't know, I don't know the exact pop off the top of my head now, but say set say the pop's 10, you need it for your set, and one comes up in auction. But there's four of you trying to collect that set. There's now four bids that need that card. It's very difficult for you to complete your set. See now you have to pay the money. This, this, this just started to treacle off into the American. And this is what I say earlier on that the when the Americans get behind something, there's no stopping it. It doesn't slow down. ⁓ because there's so many of them that understand buying early to hold and sell. They don't care about just flipping quick in a market where there's no pop. Like understanding the fact that the pop was so loud, so low that when you buy certain cards, you're the only person that's got them. And and that was the case, like you'll see I see I see a guy called Champ, which is Mike, who's one of the co owners of Backyard. He started to post up 2024 Reds. Bearing in mind I'd been I'd been buying and collecting reds. You know, Adam, Yorkshire Adam actually did a single stream for for Aiden, ⁓ where we picked up probably 300 cards. ⁓ Majority of them were reds, blacks, purples. and looking back now, insane. Like insane collection to have picked up. ⁓ but very grateful. And also we graded them and they graded really, really well, and lots of PSA tens. and I would say, you know, I when I when I buy a card, whenever I buy a card, I always add the grading fee to it and how much I've paid, and then I put the I put the amount so I know what I'm into that card for. We priced up everything for the national and for Burbank way beforehand, before this boom. And some of the cards I had two, three hundred dollars on, and I'm talking reds. After the boom happened, the reds were doing five, 10Ks. Like it just went nuts. Way bigger than I expected. But when I stood at Burbank, my my initial plan was to take all my case hits with me. And I I didn't take a single case hit from my collection. I just took Disney and Marvel. I completely twisted my plans. In what I'm coming to Burbank and the National to do, and I ended up bringing all my all of my Disney and Marvel that I was prepared to sell. I put prices on everything, and bearing in mind, there might have been a comp in March at five, six hundred, and I was putting seven, eight grand on them, and they were still selling. And and people like repackers were coming up to me. Where are you getting this comp from? And it's like the way we we learned to do it, or what we was doing was that I was looking at a sow from one character, putting characters in tiers. So, you know, whether it was a princess, princess would go in a higher tier, lower characters, and then just doing multipliers like that. And and people knew that they needed then cards because they weren't going to come up again. So it's like, do you buy it or don't buy it? And there's a video of me and Mike Franklin where crazy now, but I I remember I remember day one of Burbank, my twenty twenty four Sapphire PSA tens, I had thirty-five of them. I had one thousand five hundred and fifty dollars on them. The last comp before that was nine hundred. And people were like, You're nuts, like what's going on? Mike Franklin comes over to the table, tries to buy one, haggles with me. I'm like, no, I'm not selling. I don't want like that's my price. I've got there was there's eighty-five in the pop, and I've got thirty. Ice probably has twenty. There's probably a scattering of others. Go and find one. Good luck. Right. I I get I do massive cash outs, that that show, astronomical numbers that we've never experienced at a card show. It's The the Burbank card show for me was probably my biggest numbers ever before the national. And I was selling Disney and Marvel. I was like, what is going on? I I I remember texting James and Ben being like, This this is actually not, this just seems crazy. What what is happening? And and bearing in mind, I I sort of foresied it to happen, but didn't realise it would happen in that way. But it was just so clear. And I undersold like hundred percent I've undersold stuff. Hundred percent I've left meat on the bone for people. But I was selling at I'm into them I'm into them let me find you ⁓ so I use an app to track everything. Them me them Mickeys, I'm into them for a hundred dollars each after grading. And we ended up selling them At just under $3k a piece. So if you're not happy to take 30x, what are you doing? Like honestly, and and there was cards where we were selling them and looking at what we'd paid for them, and it was just yeah, it was it was wild. That that that that Burbank coming home, restocking, going back out to the national period was just just just absolutely astronomically wild. But at the same time, proud of myself that we took the risk and and and lived with that risk to to go for it believed in it a good salesman believes in what he's selling yeah definitely if you believe in what you're selling you'll sell it especially when it's thinking about the national and like yeah I'll come to that in a moment because there were some really key key moments at the national that made made sense. Now day one of day one of Burbank right I lay everything out I've laid I've I've I've got I I've got so much, I don't even know what to do with it. A repacker comes over to me. They go, We want it all, we want it all. I'm like, Yeah, cool, beautiful. I'm like, cashed out, amazing. They go, We'll pay you 90% of sticker for everything. They start adding it up, and then they want to start checking comps and they want to start changing the prices. Me, we all know this. I'm pretty stubborn and I'm pretty hot headed. Sod it. This deal ain't happening. Go away. I go back to the hotel room. I'm furious that this hasn't happened because obviously I've not laid out any cards and sold any cards because I was doing this deal. So you've wasted a whole day, really. And then I go back to the hotel room, I resticker everything, I lay it all back out into the different years. But anyway, I'm half thinking about just booking a flight home because I'm that furious. And and we go, nope, sod it. We'll set back up tomorrow with a game plan. We lay everything out. We take photos, we'll put it up there. I only take 25, 26 with me. So 2025, 2026. Anything for that, I take with me. I fill up my showcases and Blaise, swish your from Blaise, comes round and he's like, I've been told you've got some really good stuff. Can we get a deal done? Amazing geyser to deal with, like, honestly, so easy to deal with. We spoke through it all, agreed the price, deal done, paid there and then. He's like, Are you bringing the other stuff? Because he knew that I still had the 2024 and 2023. And I said, No problem. I'll go back to the room, I'll grab the 2024 stuff. So I go back to the room, I grab 2024, I leave 2023 alone again. I'm not gonna make this mistake again. I'm gonna lay out 2024. Everything under a certain price point, me and Swish should get a deal done. At this point, there's a commotion at the table where customers are just buying. We there's three of us behind the table and we can't keep up. It was going nuts. People were just grabbing characters, you know. This was an interesting one as well. In the middle of me getting cashed out from a repacker, a customer asks the repacker, can I buy that card? Because I need it for my collection. So he pays me for the card and sells the card in front of me. It's like, wow, this is and and seeing that, he was like, wow, I've just completed my refractor PSA 10 set. And that's the people you're looking for. You're looking for them people. Bearing in mind, Bles Bles build a digital online repack, which, you know, they need inventory and I had the correct inventory that they needed at the price points they needed. And they was Swisher understands Disney. And I think that's really important from a repacker to understand what product they're actually dealing with and the market they're dealing with. Whereas the majority of repackers want to look at a comp and pay you on the comp where he understood what the Disney market was doing. So it was very, very important that I dealt with him and very, very easy that I dealt with him. And it was just nice. And then and then there was some sharp, you know, Aiden basketball paradise and his partners. They were buying certain stuff because they knew the market would move. ⁓ very, very good deals there as well. And then I post up online saying, I think it was Saturday, will be 2023 day. So this is the day I'm gonna bring out the 2023 stuff, right? And Swisher had already texted me saying, Can I have a look at your twenty twenty three stuff? And Burbank Card Show had said to me, We'd love to do a little bit of filming. On your 2023 stuff. So I turn up to the morning of the show, I lay everything out. Bearing in mind I've probably got 250 slabs of just the out of 100, which is like super hard to find. I've got PSA 10 Mickeys, I've got all of it out. Everything's priced, and everything's priced high. Let me tell you that. Everything was priced to the moon at that point. I've got six people waiting at the table. And I have to tell them, nothing's for sale at the moment until Blaise have been and looked at it because I've given them first opportunity to take a look and Burbank want to do a video. They the people in front of me were not happy. It was like carnage. It was like, wow, what have you done? What do you mean you can't sell your cards? And it's a respect thing. It's a relationship thing. If Blaise and Swisher hadn't bought out the rest, I probably don't even bring this out. So it's a respect thing that if you do deals with people constantly, let them have some priority as well, you know? ⁓ they come over, Swisher come over, clears out every single one of the 100s, all of them, all of the slabs. He basically tallies all my stickers up, agrees a price. He obviously works on an average per slab that he then puts it into the repack. ⁓ it works for everyone. At that perspective, Specific time, I still had my PSA 10 sapphires at 1550 and no one wanted them. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. And then we go into we we come home, we reload, the market really starts to take off. You're seeing eBay sales go crazy. You're seeing auctions go crazy, private sales start to go crazy. And that's when I start to bring out the big stuff, the real good sapphire stuff, ready for the national. Even on the early setup day on Tuesday at the National, I sell 500 slabs before it's it before the show's even started. ⁓ and that's when I really realised like, wow, this this this ball run, which is what it is, is a bull run. ⁓ do I think it you know, I've seen people online posting, ⁓ Luke's pumped and dumped and stuff like that. I've seen that. I don't I don't mind people posting what they think. ⁓ is promoting pumping? Absolutely. Am I Am I a promoter in a product? Absolutely. I'm a salesman. That's what we're here to do. We're here to sell the product. We're here to sell the cards. ⁓ have I sold them at the right time? Potentially. Have I sold under have I undervalued certain stuff? Definitely. I've left meat on the table. Them, them same sapphire PSA 10s are now comping at five and a half grand. So if you bought one off me at the National, you've made three and a half, two and a half grand. It's mental, isn't it? So did I leave a lot on the table? Yes. Have I still got a lot? Yes. Have I still got some of the key pieces? Absolutely. But I've taken money off the table at at a point where I'm making 10, 15, 20x. I think it would be stupid not to take that money and use it for other stuff. Yeah. And like you say, if you're so little into us well, clearing out it it makes sense all around, doesn't it? The ROI on what we spent is is is wild. And you would be silly not to take that off the table and ride out some free pieces. ⁓ we're free rolling everything else we've got left, and we've still got some really, really key cards, some really good one-on-ones, ⁓ some really high-end Mickeys, and the same for Marvel. And I said the same would happen for Spider-Man and Hulk, and it has. And a few people were asking me what's gonna do well next, and a few of us jumped on SpongeBob. And the reds, the reds and the one of ones for Spongebob have also started to do really, really well. Do a a couple of couple of people have asked me the question how long does this last? I'm obviously no Mystic Meg and I'm no fortune teller, but now the now the Americans have to take over. They've taken over the bat and they've run with it. You could see crazy numbers right now. Honestly, once they start to take the product and they start to hold on to it. You really don't know what numbers you could end up seeing. And that's the difference now. Once the Americans get involved in in the buying and selling of these pieces, that you know, you can see some surprise of numbers. ⁓ so and I wish everyone the best of luck with it. Buy what you like, buy what you enjoy, collect what you enjoy. If you're gonna get into some of the higher end pieces, be careful. Be careful. I I I I don't I don't want anyone spending what they can't. I'm seeing that with certain soccer pieces. That certain people have spent very big money with soccer cards that they now can't sell. I don't want to see that happen. The difference with Disney is that the IP is just so big. And that there's characters you can love and enjoy. There's films you can love and enjoy. You can collect it with your children. And I think that's what makes a big, big difference ⁓ with Disney and over some of the others is that. It's got generational stuff. You can enjoy it with your kids, you can enjoy it your friends. ⁓ and and just many, many set collectors. ⁓ but I do I I I don't know where the ceiling is to to finish it. When there's a bear market like this, people will always get stung. And that's just the nature of buying and selling, right? Buy at the right point, sell at the right point and just be careful throughout. And I think I think if you can follow that, you'll be okay. But Me personally, I'm not completely out. I've got some really big items still. ⁓ we've actually sent 250 items to auction. And the reason I chose to do that rather than selling at the card shows is that a lot of these items don't have cons. And I'm just seeing crazy numbers on auctions right now where it would make it would make more sense to send them to auction because people want to collect the characters or finish their sets. But I think. As as as someone that buys and sells, my return may do better from auction. Yeah. No, I think it's you're seeing it now. You're not like you said, you would sort of ⁓ guesstimating where to put your prices. I think doing something like this it it takes away that guess. Yeah, and you asked earlier on about you know, pricing at the national and selling at the national and stuff like that, and people will be able to confirm it. We was firm on our sticker price. We did we didn't we didn't have to sell stuff. We was in a grateful position to where if it doesn't sell, no problem, I'll send it to auction. Yeah. Because I know the auctions are doing well. So if you want that card now, that's my price. If you're buying a bunch of stuff and we're doing a deal, great. But predominantly at the national, I wasn't prepared to negotiate on my sticker prices Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday because we just didn't need to. The main crowd hadn't even hit the show. And and as a vendor, I think if you're in a position where you're not needing to do that, sure you can have a little bit of negotiation here and there. But for for a stock like Disney at the time when no one else had it, I think the only other person that had it on their table was card collector to Ryan. And Ryan had literally come up and bought a hundred slabs off me. Yeah. I I I know we're in the same position. So Why do I need to slash my prices and give stuff away at a time when it's not really needed, you know? So knowing knowing what you have and the demand for what you have is very, very important. ⁓ a big show like the national. Yeah, definitely. Just I'm aware we're now closing on two hours. So I'll last few ones, I'll do a quick fire for ⁓ you. Have you got a Grail from 2023, the top scroll on Disney set, do you you chasing it all or is purely just I haven't got anything I'm still chasing. No. ⁓ I I've still got sets that I'm trying to complete. I'm not handing out my lists. No. And I learned very quickly not to because people will buy what cards you're looking for and they will hold them. ⁓ I've done it myself. ⁓ I've got a lot of trade bait. I have still got some very big growl pieces, ⁓ some good one-on-ones, some very good reds. ⁓ and obviously some some cool micas and stuff like that. I have actually still got a sub due back of nearly 200 items that are that are all out of 100s. ⁓ I will use them as trade bait to build my sets. So I have still got full set collections that I'm trying to complete myself. ⁓ so yeah, that's where I'm at with it. ⁓ just going back to the same the same the same also goes for twenty twenty four dude as well. ⁓ Especially Sapphire. ⁓ there are a couple of pieces that I'm still very heavily holding. ⁓ and and stuff like that. Yeah. Perfect. ⁓ so going back to shores, is there any show that you've not been to that you want to go to? ⁓ great. Dubai. Dubai Dubai's one I haven't been to and Bangkok's one I haven't been to. But we're ticking them off in October. so really, really looking forward to that. The the Asian market for me, I'm really looking forward to seeing. I had a great time in Macau last year. but this year we're doing Hong Kong, Macau, Bangkok, and then going off to Dubai. So I'm really looking forward to seeing what their markets have to offer. there's a few Europeans that I haven't done as well. So I haven't done Poland before. ⁓ so I'm I'm just looking forward to seeing what they offer. ⁓ USA wise, I'd say I've probably ticked off most of the ones I want to do. so yeah, just the Asian ones. Perfect. And then What's next with Hobby Box? You got any plans there, or is that just business? The Hobby Box itself is is always looking for growth in far as streamers and stuff like that. Same as everyone. The Hobby Box pretty much capped at where it can be because of ⁓ allocation and distribution isn't something that we have. We we we we never have had it. and without allocation and distribution from anyone, I'm not just talking topsoe fanatics, Panini. GTS. I don't even have a GTS account. So ⁓ to not have distribution cap you to where you can be. But we've obviously pivoted and gone on to do repacks, building repacks, buying and selling of singles. so the hobby box itself ⁓ is probably at a plateau of where it needs to be. ⁓ and if anything else develops and grows there. ⁓ we'll just see what happens. Obviously, we've got the sports card social that me, Mark, and Rich have. ⁓ obviously, that's the only sports card show within Milton Keynes that we do it. ⁓ there are there are growth there for us to tr to try and move into the arena ⁓ or to a bigger venue or to do other card shows around the country. ⁓ we did have one planned for later on in the year at the United Stadium Old Trafford. Unfortunately, working with football stadiums, dates clash, this moves, that moves. So we are just trying to find, but but but we'll see where that goes and and what that develops into. I do also own a couple of other braking companies and stuff like that, and and little pieces. I I I also own some other pieces that we do in America and stuff like that. So we are working. I I I try nowadays I try and work more with other people ⁓ than just running it myself. ⁓ I like to help other people and More give either the financial backing or the understanding and the knowledge and the contacts. ⁓ so yeah, obviously the pavilion for next year, the international pavilion, that's already solidified, done, full. I don't know where that goes for Detroit. I don't. I I haven't been haven't been given any information whether we'll even have space or whether we need to apply for space or anything like that. So I don't know for Detroit yet. I've never been to Detroit, so that's interesting to find out. Where the national moves for that. Burbank for next year. Like I say, we've already got a group going out there for that. So yeah, we'll the the growth throughout the different brands that I'm part of, we'll just see what happens. ⁓ I think sometimes and my biggest advice to any braking company as well is sometimes be happy with what you've got because trying to grow too much can put too much pressure on what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, just but enjoy what you're doing, man. Just just enjoy what you're doing because this is a really, really fun space when you want it to be. And, you know, just just just just just enjoy it as much as you guys can. Yeah. It's not really a proper job, is it? Well, that's what saying. This is the unfortunate part that no one really sees it as a proper job because we're just having fun. And I actually, for the first two or three years, I didn't even class it as a job, mate. I really didn't. I just said I'm Doing this thing called the hobby. Yeah. Now I retired at 30 from any real job. I threw the suits away and didn't think I was ever going to need to do anything. This, this, this takes up more hours than anything else, you know. So it's definitely a job, but it's one that I thoroughly enjoy. And I really, really enjoy working with other people and building the relationships and the growth of other people. So yeah. Bye feels like a great place to leave it, so absolutely. Thank you very much for having me. No, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. And we'll see you at the card show. I will do a a slight plug that we've obviously got the sports card social coming up. I know you guys are big, big supporters of it and you've always sponsored it. So I really appreciate that as well. ⁓ but we are heading to the MK cards, ⁓ K arena for the sports card social. Make sure to follow us on social media and grab your tickets nice and early. Appreciate it. Yeah, we'll drop a link below for it. And yeah, thank you very much. We've got the full team this time, so ⁓ awesome. Let's go with that. Yeah, catch that. See you in another.