Els Vanbeckevoort: Hello and welcome to the Water Talks podcast where water story, science and policy receive the focus they deserve. I'm your host, Els van Bekevoort, and today it's my absolute pleasure to welcome Mark Mattson to the show. Mark is the president and founder of Swim, Drink, Fish Canada, former Lake Ontario waterkeeper and a pioneering environmental lawyer who with over two decades ⁓ fought for swimmable, drinkable, fishable waters in the Great Lakes. very heartfelt welcome Mark. Good morning. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Good morning. Thanks for having me. Els Vanbeckevoort: You're welcome. Mark, maybe then for our listeners ⁓ are new to your work, can you share your origin story, maybe from Kingston summers on the Lake Ontario ⁓ founding ⁓ Ontario Waterkeeper? Like, how did it all start for you? MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah, sure. I think for me anyways, it all started with my dream to become a lawyer as a little kid. ⁓ actually grew up in Kitchener and we always had a place on Wolf Island across from Kingston and the Thousand Islands. So we went there every summer. And I my father when we were young. We had a big family. My mother had, you know, had seven kids in the family. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: She really wanted us to go to school. So I always thought, ⁓ I'll go to school and I'll be a lawyer. So of course, when I got out of high school, I went right to Queens. So I'd be near Wolf Island in Kingston. And I ended up at law school in Windsor. And was on the river in Detroit River. And I really, you know, started recognizing just how connected really I was to the water and to the river, et cetera. So I article in Toronto, ended up doing a lot of criminal and then environmental work. ⁓ Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Just over the course of time, I got hired by some amazing clients, amazing communities on landfills and big expansions of dumps, et cetera. And that really taught me a lot about hydrogeology and hydrology. I became a part-time prosecutor for the Ministry of Environment. And was all in the early ⁓ I did Ontario Energy Board work. I did a lot of other sort of public utility work. ⁓ It was all sort of leading to the mid 90s, late 90s when all of a sudden the government started making a lot of cutbacks. They made big cuts to the Ministry of Environment. They cut a lot of the prosecutors out. really reduced the teams that are out on the water doing the environmental prosecutions. And so I started, I was teaching a little bit too. So I started doing a lot of it pro bono. And I built a team around me of ex people from the Ministry of Environment. And then eventually, you know, I was contacted by the Waterkeeper Organization in the States and they said, hey, why don't you do this full time? Maybe you could start up your own charity. And to be honest with you, I never thought of myself as leaving the practice of law, but I was so close to the issues and I saw a real need for it. I was really impressed by the work of the Hudson Riverkeeper. and other river keepers and water keepers in the state. So I took a leap of faith and ultimately, you know, started doing this full time in 2001. I've been a little over 25 years now running a charity and working with communities and being the voice of the water. So that's how I ended up where I am today. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Beautiful. Well, I'm glad you did. And maybe, you know, ⁓ did your early days like patrolling the lake by boat shape your approach to citizen led water protection? that's obviously things have changed a lot over the years, I'm sure. So ⁓ does that how did that work? MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah Well You know, I, you know, being on Wolf Island and growing up there, I was always in the water swimming. There was still a little commercial fishery there I used to help out with. I'd work on some farms as well, but I'd get out on the water a lot and fish. So I really only knew the Kingston, Thousand Island, you know, area. But once, waterkeepers and river keepers, they sort of have this, ⁓ this rule that you have to have a boat and you have to get out on the water. And to be honest with you, I'd never been on Lake Ontario. And so I was the Lake Ontario waterkeeper. I'd always driven the 401, you know, from Toronto. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Right, sure. MARK OLAF MATTSON: to Kingston. While getting out on a boat changes everything. Your whole perspective, I know people do like tour and tour boats and things, but being in your own boat and going into harbors and communities and seeing them from the water first, it's just a whole different experience and understanding the water, ⁓ weather, temperatures. ⁓ Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: communities, it just changed everything. And of course, I was able to see where the pipes were, discharging along the rivers and lakes and where the river, you know, and where the polluted waters were coming out into the river. So I learned so much and I learned about all these landfills and I learned about all these beautiful things and all these terrible things. And it just broadened my perspective on the lake and gave me a much better basis upon which to really work ⁓ towards fishable Yeah. Els Vanbeckevoort: Exactly. I mean, I guess having that personal understanding makes a huge difference. I'm a big swimmer myself and, you know, I saw I'm very passionate as well about healthy water, safe water. How and why, I guess, has swimmable water become such a powerful rallying cry? Like I understand it. Like I say, I'm a swimmer. I love being able to, you know, be in the water. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah. Yum. Els Vanbeckevoort: I'm originally from Europe, I'm a proud Canadian now. so thankful for the amazing abundant resource that we have in this country. But how does it become this powerful rallying cry, guess? ⁓ And does Swim Guide make that ⁓ real communities, ⁓ for ⁓ like MARK OLAF MATTSON: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great question. And I too was a swimmer. I had a little bit of trouble in school. So they made me join the swim team where I'd have to practice every morning and afternoon. And yeah, I became a really great swimmer and I love swimming and all that. But my sort of swimming as a... Els Vanbeckevoort: Great. Yes. ⁓ MARK OLAF MATTSON: you know, as a basis in my group, you're right, with Swim Guide and then with the foundation money from the Weston Family Foundation where we're giving money to, you know, the Gord-Edgar Downey Pier in Kingston, towards swimmable cities. We're working in Vancouver now through Wave Prize and giving away millions to communities that want to have swimmable water in their communities. And it all came out of swimming and swimming really ⁓ the gateway, believe it or not, in environmental law to clean water, to swimable, drinkable, fishable. because as an investigator and a prosecutor, knew ⁓ the waters didn't have a lot of protection if people weren't swimming in them. So currently a lot of our laws as it relates to public health, which is really local, you wouldn't think of it as an environmental law, but the public health rules, they're the ones that really post the beaches and do the sampling around E. coli, et cetera, and the risk. So you've got public health rules and... because of them so much of our waterfronts have been shut down, no swimming. And once they're swimmable, well then there's obligations on public health to do sampling and to share with the public. But there's also the Ontario Water Resources Act in Ontario, any use that can be made of the water or any enjoyment that the pollution cannot interfere with that. So if you're swimming in the water, wow, the rules as they relate to what pollution can be put in the water. just becomes so much more stringent. So as soon as they put up a no swimming sign on your waterfront, believe it or not, they've taken away 90 % of your environmental protections. So swimmers become sort of the front line of environmental restoration and protection, not just protection, but restoration, you know, that the fact that we want to swim, you know, up in Ottawa, I remember working with the Ottawa Riverkeeper and they now have the river house and they have the lanes and that beautiful swimming thing. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Wow. Yes. Yeah, beautiful. Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: But I remember when back in 2009 when the city was being charged for lot of sewage overflows and things and. one of the real groups in town where the paddlers, I believe they had an access point where they put their boats in and they trained for the Olympic team. And, you know, there was also a combined sewer overflow there. And once we put that together, there was a lot of concern like, why are we letting, you know, we got to close that down. No, you're not closing down the access. You need to either ⁓ the CSO or at least give them notice. And so they put a red light there and that red light went off when the sewers were overflowing. to warn them and it was something that really went off in my head right across the country I've you know really think that there should be an obligation to really give immediate notification when pipes are leaking a lot of them of Kingston runs their gas utilities So they created a system where they give immediate notification when a pipe's leaking, but they're rare in Canada It's still that that form of technology and sharing the information is still very rare but Ottawa was a great example of how you you know That's a minimum, I would think, of someone who's taking, you know, is polluting the water that they should at least be giving that. So swimming, for me, swimmers are the front line of environmental restoration. And it's not just because we all love swimming and it's healthy and it's beautiful, but because it really allows the environmental, empowers the rules of public health and environmental law that we have to actually have force. ⁓ Els Vanbeckevoort: I agree. I love that actually, ⁓ I I spend a lot of my summer vacation time ⁓ in national parks or provincial parks and swimming is part of that recreation, And so it really kind of brings it home to say, okay, this is a safe place for people to recreate, but also, this is now protecting an ecosystem that can flourish again. So I love that. I think that's great. ⁓ MARK OLAF MATTSON: We expect. Thank Yeah, just know, Swim Guide, you mentioned, I don't know of anyone, you know, we created that because we did beach surveys and we had these samples. So we created a platform, put the beaches on there. We update data. I think we have 15,000 beaches now, but. It's been really hard to keep it growing and going because we never figured out a business model for it, of course, but we do so much work and there's so many volunteers and people, think last year over 3 million people used SwimGuide. So it's a really important service. That does exactly what I was talking about, which gives the swimmers not only where they can go swimming, but gives them the most up-to-date environmental sampling that was done there so that they can judge for them and their families to whether it's safe. anyways. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Yes. and use it also to advocate potentially for change, right? So I think it's a great way to start and into our next question, you have prosecuted polluters before under the Fisheries Act and billions in restoration funding, which is like incredible, but where has legal action worked best and maybe ⁓ is still happening today? Like how does that look for you? MARK OLAF MATTSON: I'll have it in a sec. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I would be doing a lot more of the legal action, for two things. One is it's really, really time consuming and expensive. secondly, a lot of the laws have been weakened to some extent. I can explain how. But your first question is really important is why do we need to do it at all? It's where ⁓ no listening and there's no attention being paid to the pollution. And so ⁓ In order to do prosecution, have to do an investigation. And that means collecting evidence. And evidence is, you know, it's a little bit higher standard. It's not just rumors or stories or putting in articles you've read in the newspaper. You have to actually do the sampling appropriately and have it done at a legal place and collect it. So when you collect evidence, ability to build people's. intention listen to you goes the way through the roof. You're taking much more seriously. So that was a great example around the waste sites in Port Hope and Port Granby, the radioactive waste sites. Back in 1999, 2000, we did the sampling ⁓ at where ⁓ landfills were discharging and the high metals and the other elements at Port Granby and Port Hope really caused the government, we wanted a prosecution, but Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes, I am. Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: they said, ⁓ no, we'll do a cleanup. You know, and they immediately, it was 200 million at first, then it went to a billion two, and now it's over $2 billion in terms of the welcoming in the Granby landfills. All because we, you know, people just, they're not leaking into the lake. That's crazy. While we sent both the leachate seeps and in the lake. And yeah, don't forget the evidence. And so, you know, enforcing the law when I first started, I thought that's all I would need to do. I learned after a decade that Els Vanbeckevoort: and you know. Yeah. MARK OLAF MATTSON: No, the law is really important, but if people don't understand the laws or respect them or see them as important, you know, like they would, you know, people don't like people speeding on their street. They know what those laws are about. Call someone or impaired driving. But a lot of people didn't understand the environmental laws. So, you know, we would enforce them and we've convictions convicted city of Kingston and a private prosecution city Hamilton. But. you know, I realized that I had to get more people back down to the water's edge. I had to connect more people to the water. I had to get people again to understand how important water was in their lives these laws were going to have real meaning and force. And so we ended up spending a lot of time creating swim guide, creating accessible places. We've been doing a lot more work around educating people about their water. But we still do. ⁓ have our, you know, I have a bunch of young students, law students every year. We still do a bunch of submissions. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: We still participate with equal justice and SILA and other lawyers and, you know, still doing that. But I'm just getting too old to be out there sampling every day. And I'm not as aggressive as I used to be. I'm trying to be a really nice person as opposed to the prosecutor of all the environmental causes. I had a little chain, but it's still really an important tool and still training others to use it so that ⁓ it's there. Els Vanbeckevoort: But I can understand why. Yeah. MARK OLAF MATTSON: our future and sustainability. Els Vanbeckevoort: We live in a different world today as well, where we're all much more somewhat say connected, at least online. But the challenge of course is that that has led a little bit to disconnection as well, right? So with the natural environment and I the education piece is super important. Is there still a raw sewage issue today in 2026? Like, are we still here? Like what's going on with that? Because I know you mentioned, okay, there's a few progressive municipalities. ⁓ but they're still, you know, the issue is not resolved. what's happening with that? MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah, love the question because you'll be surprised by the answer. I think it's worse than ever. I think, you know, our cities are growing. We've known that we haven't been able to treat the sewage to the extent that we already have communities. The overflows in Toronto and Montreal and Hamilton, every time it rains, which is sad because when it rains, you think it would refresh the world. But no, it overflows. ⁓ Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. but it doesn't, the runoff, right? MARK OLAF MATTSON: We have what are called combined sewer overflows, which means the rainwater and the sewage are in the same pipes. They just have a barrier in the middle. And when the water and the rain overflows, then they commingle. And so everything has to go to the lake, it would blow the sewage treatment plant apart. And so those are called combined sewer overflows. Toronto has 94 of them. when you hear about the bypasses at the sewage treatment plants, that's enough because they're overflowed, but it doesn't, we don't even keep track. of the combined sewer overflows that are happening in our older cities like Belleville or Ottawa or Kingston or or Hamilton. ⁓ so, and we drink that water, right? And so it's really a problem and it's going to cost a lot of money. And the city of Kingston is a great example of a city that invested in that. They put over a hundred million into there and they've been working on disconnecting their combined sewer overflows. You just create two pipes and any, they haven't built CSOs in 40, 50 years. So the new neighborhoods, but Think of downtown Toronto. There are at least 100 new condos with all those people on the waterfront. That's all new and they're all built on CSOs. So, you know, just imagine when it rains in Toronto, how much sewage is going out into the harbour. I always say that Toronto should have a warning. You know, don't flush your toilet or take a shower or do your laundry when it's raining in Toronto, because the truth is you're really just sending it directly into our into the lake. So that's a real Els Vanbeckevoort: Right. Wow. Yeah, huge impact. MARK OLAF MATTSON: It's a real problem and Ecojustice has some data on this where they used to do the sewage every year. ⁓ billion cubic meters ⁓ sewage in Canada goes out a year without treatment. We've better. Victoria built a sewage treatment plant. Halifax has invested a lot. Toronto's got plans to do a lot of work. Montreal is building a primary sewage, you know, on the river, but we've got a long way to go and it's all because ⁓ You know, we just took for granted that our waters and our cities aren't going to be swimmable. We just assume that they should they're off limits. And if you want to go swimming, go north or go to a park. But it's too bad because around the world now, swimmable cities are really important. They're becoming that's where most people live. That's where these cities are built on these beautiful waterways. That's how you introduce people and educate people to water. And so to create Els Vanbeckevoort: Agreed. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Swimable water in our big cities and you go to a city like I don't know Montreal if they haven't I I think we have three beaches there and they're all sort of man-made ones but a whole island middle of 20 % of the world's surface freshwater going by it every day and They don't really have swimmable water. It's crazy. It you think it would be the you know, the most important selling point of the city But anyways, that's enough. That's for Els Vanbeckevoort: Right. Crazy. From a political perspective, know, and that's where it always kind of the rubber meets the road. politicians care about what people care about in the moment. But to have a long-term strategic perspective on this that, you know, we're actually not only we doing something that's going to be good tomorrow, today, tomorrow, but you know, we're protecting our life, our livelihoods and this ecosystem for, you know, generations to come. ⁓ MARK OLAF MATTSON: I know. Els Vanbeckevoort: In that way, somehow, some way, we have to be able to find some consensus for people to understand that, the economy is hurting right now and many people are suffering. But it's all interconnected. And, you know, I was together with a bunch of people in, you know, a Clean 50 get together a couple of weeks ago where we're all looking at, know, Canada's clean economy has a significant impact or can potentially have a significant impact. But it's kind of, we're not very well represented. When I say we, I talk broadly, ⁓ your organizations, like everybody, ⁓ everybody who's trying to, ⁓ know, make for a better future and is trying to impact society for good, it becomes much more challenging. And I think we have to, like the education piece is super important, but also for everyday Canadians to understand that, you know, economics and sustainability actually go hand in hand. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah. Els Vanbeckevoort: And I enjoyed reading the Substack essay that you had sent us, actually, that you'd sent the link through and that was focused on energy. The one piece that I read specifically, Beyond Dinosaur, challenges legacy systems in both water and energy. ⁓ And I see the of the fit and what we can potentially do. in your mind, are the dinosaurs that are holding back distributed water futures and energy for that matter? MARK OLAF MATTSON: stolen. Els Vanbeckevoort: What's kind of, are the big things that from your perspective really need to be addressed? MARK OLAF MATTSON: Big question. And again, a little bit surprising, even that article, you know, I learned so much from being in Calgary and their utility impacts, which had distributed power and was selling these, this technology to homeowners and businesses to get off the grid and produce their own power and sell it. Well, that's not even allowed in Ontario. So it was sort of a bit shocking. And, you know, and also I'll just say to Calgary, when we talk about sewage, Calgary has tertiary treatment. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: not primary, not secondary, tertiary, the Bow River, they respect that river from the moment it comes into the city to the second it leaves. And you can imagine it runs all the way to Hudson Bay and how many cities along the way live and get their drinking water. So they really, it's not like the technology isn't there. They just don't have option. But, you know, when we talk about distributed energy and the dinosaurs, you know, I was referring I'm not. ⁓ you know, put it aside all the environmental stuff about nuclear power and risk and whether it is or isn't or whatever and the cleanness, but they are huge. And so Ontario's getting, you know, 50 % of its power from two places, three places, know, Darlington, Pickering and Bruce. They're huge and they're not nimble. They're not, you can't turn them on and off. If they do go off, it causes the whole grid almost to shut. they don't have thousands and thousands of little power producers that they're just what are called distributive where you they're local. They're in context. But to do those types of energy systems, you have to build the network. Just like, you know, with the web and everything we saw since the late nineties to today, look what's happened. But it's an incredible network where Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes, exactly. MARK OLAF MATTSON: inputs are coming in and out. Whereas the old energy systems are, we create a monopoly, government gets in there, we put in billions of dollars, we build these plants, we give you the power, we split it up and we, you know, charge you your little portion and that's it. those ⁓ are very, have become, you know, around the world, they become not, they're very polluting for the communities that live near them, but they're also really expensive. and they're not very flexible and they're not very sustainable environmentally. And so new systems like New Zealand, where distributed energy is just the way of life there and everybody's a power producer and seller. And it's pretty incredible to see what is possible. And here in Canada, we're just a little, maybe it's easier, maybe. ⁓ monopolies, know, they don't want to give up the power or their empire building, or maybe there's political advantages to keeping it you know, that government controlled. But I we're going to, ⁓ you just with the way the world is, just things are changing so much that we're going to have to start thinking a little differently and a little bit more. you know, outside the box of the one monopoly energy supplier, Hydro Quebec or Ontario Hydro or Manitoba Hydro. And we're going to have to find a way to, you know, start to get our power from smaller sources and allow it to be distributed through cars and batteries and you know what I mean? There's so much happening in technology. So ⁓ but it's... Els Vanbeckevoort: Yeah, no, there is. And the risk component is also, sorry if I can just interject for a moment, but the risk component is there as well, right? So if you concentrate all of that within ⁓ very few facilities that are producing all of the power, then also from a risk perspective and a risk management perspective and a resilience perspective, it's not going to actually get us there either. Like that's the other piece of that. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah. 100%. I remember the, I remember the ice storm in Quebec when it knocks down those transmission lines coming from the North, it shut down power in Montreal for two and a half weeks. Now it did recover, but you know, you can think of other things. You're a hundred percent right. It just doesn't have that resiliency, that flexibility or, and the risk. Anyways, that's a, yeah. In the water too. It's a hundred percent. I mean, there's so many little things we could all be doing. And I think people would. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yeah. On the water side too, I think it's very similar, like water systems. MARK OLAF MATTSON: pick up on these things if they felt like they were part of an overall solution as opposed to just doing what's right and volunteering. mean, do so, you see people will do so much to protect the environment, but we're given such like off to the side. Anyways, I think people, yeah, building their homes and living their lives, if it results in clean water, I'll tell you, people will go to the wall to make it happen. Els Vanbeckevoort: I it as well. So maybe going back to that education piece, like how could distributed community scale monitoring, let's say, ⁓ nature-based solutions shift power for issues like stormwater industrial pollution? Because I think, you know, often one of the things is that, you know, people just don't know, right? You mentioned that as well. There's a lack of understanding. There's a lack of education. How that potentially shift things? MARK OLAF MATTSON: But we have a big dream and you guys might already be working on it there in your company, but your water health index is, you know, I always wanted to have a swimmable drinkable fishable index in every community. And it starts with education. You know, what, how good is our drinking water? What are the risks to it? What's the future? What's our index? Like if I moved to Ottawa, what's the index for swimmability, fishability, swimmability? ⁓ This data is more and more easy to collect. Els Vanbeckevoort: Right. MARK OLAF MATTSON: You know, even if government wanted, didn't want to do it. And there was a point where through freedom of information, access to information was getting harder to get this data. Well, now the tools are better. ⁓ science is really growing leaps and bounds. The data is easier to share. It's going to be harder and harder to just ignore these problems because we're going to have more data and more information. And that's going to help us make better decisions. And so I think the future truly does look positive on the educational side. And I think it's going to put pressure on our governments to have to be more accountable and more responsive to these issues around clean water. So I think it all starts, though, with information and data and sharing. Because like I went back to with my court cases, a lot of people will just tune you out if they ⁓ think you have the facts to support what you're doing. ⁓ Els Vanbeckevoort: Right. MARK OLAF MATTSON: You really do need that data, but once you get it and if it's meaningful data like, hey, I can't swim in that water. I can't drink. I can't eat this fish. Why? And you can explain that where it's got. mean, it's just, it just. empowers you so much and to share that data in a meaningful way so people can understand it. I mean, talking about coliform forming units for 100 milliliters and a risk assessment, you know, as when we post-beach it's a little confusing. It's a lot easier just to say, people look, you know, you really shouldn't swim in that water because you might get a stomach ache, you're sick or an earache or whatever. And I'll tell you something else. I've been in the States, I've seen the drug stores Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Yeah. MARK OLAF MATTSON: where people have access to drugstore information. And they show that after rains in cities, especially in the summer, they can see a lot of these stomach aches and ear aches and eye aches go up because people are going to the drugstore to get these. And it's like, we've got data. I don't know why we're not getting access to that data and sharing it more regularly anyways. Els Vanbeckevoort: completely. Remind me to ⁓ share one of our episodes with you. We interviewed a former CDC director who actually spent a lot of time looking at waterborne disease and he specifically mentioned what you're just talking about. And, you know, we were focusing more on the pool on the aquatic side of the aspect. He also mentioned natural bodies of water and actually some of his research papers were specifically pointing to that. And I think MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah. Yeah. Els Vanbeckevoort: I think, I mean, that's one piece of the puzzle. the, you know, the microbiological risk, but there's also the chemical risk as well. And so, you know, some of the work indeed that we're doing, created this digital platform called Water Health Index, and it uses prescriptive data models, basically, that say, this is an optimal outcome. This is what water quality should look like. And so it's very holistic. It looks at the aspects of this. It looks at microbiomes, at resilience. It looks at chemistry, looks at disinfection byproducts, it looks at everything. Because at the end of the day, if we don't look at these things holistically, we're missing, know, we're like, I know, you know, if you and I having this conversation, we'd be happy that, you know, a beach or natural body of water would be safe microbiologically speaking. But there are other, you know, contaminants. And, you one of the episodes we interviewed Robert Balot talking about PFAS, which is now everywhere. ⁓ so, You know, if we don't look holistically, we're going to miss some of that. But I my question, you know, how my, how might this real time tracking through a digital platform like water health index, let's say, ⁓ how, might that help you ⁓ swim guide or integrate with other platforms so that, know, this, this information becomes much more available and not just like when we, know, when we connect with people, we don't just say, okay, here's the data, but you know, it actually tells you what the data means. And it benchmarks it against an objective, like I say, prescriptive data model or result, correlated result that says, the water is healthy or the water is not healthy and here's what it means, right? So would that be helpful? MARK OLAF MATTSON: That's key part of getting people motivated, inspired, connected, ⁓ to able to provide that level of understanding and knowledge, ⁓ know, us beyond those kitchen table arguments where people are telling me, there's no sewage going into the water. That has no impact. I mean, to really build that awareness and that understanding in the populace is going to be very powerful because I know one thing, and I think you do too, is that when people get close to something and they love it and they connect with it, they're very, they're very inspired to protect it. and they'll vote for it as well. But when they're disconnected from it and they don't know what's going on and they're just being told everything's fine or they can't do anything about it, know, it's very hard to get ⁓ people, you know, or get a politician to care about these issues if he thinks the populace doesn't. So the more we get people understanding and knowledgeable about issues, particularly water, which is so important, the ⁓ I ⁓ it ⁓ the makers and it works its way up the line. I mean, Els Vanbeckevoort: there. MARK OLAF MATTSON: When I mean we have the International Joint Commission for the Great Lakes, 20 % of the world's surface fresh water. We have a project called Binogame working with knowledge keepers and Canadian geographic maps. And you know they created the Great Lakes Protection Act in the form in 1972 and the president and the prime minister. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: are the two who appoint the members to the IJC. They've only gotten together once and that was in 72 when Trudeau and Nixon, don't even, it's not even important. They have, the public has like, they'll go off to these other G7s and G8s and G9s and G20s. They go off to these Bilderberg things and they can't even take the time and yet you think about it on the Great Lakes. You cannot be the president of the United States or the prime minister of without getting the eight state votes. You know, they're the blue belt they used to call it and Trump gets elected because he got Michigan and Wisconsin, right? And in Canada, Quebec and Ontario, we're the watershed. We have such a powerful political base, but there is no connection. don't think when I go sometimes to Michigan, they don't think they're part of Lake Ontario or Lake Superior. The people in the Corvus don't think they're in the watershed. People in Ottawa sometimes think they're not part of the Great Lakes watershed. It's like... We're all connected and we have a shared responsibility. The birds and the fish and the watershed, like we all have these fresh water issues because we drink the water. They're all the same issues. And I just think the more we can get people to understand water, share data, know, not scare them, but give them real advice that they can take for their family and for themselves. I think what we're doing is building the leaders of tomorrow and Els Vanbeckevoort: We are. MARK OLAF MATTSON: And we're going to see, you eventually my hope is that the president and the prime minister will once again get together every three years in Canada or the U.S. and talk about how they're protecting our waters. And that's been one of my goals that I failed at. But I'm working on it. I'm hoping that, you know, eventually the Great Lakes states and provinces and First Nations will demand that it happens because, you know, we've just been ignored too long and these issues are ignored. And so I'm just thankful for the work you're doing around that. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Well, and for you, and I think there's more of us than we think. I think it's important that we do maybe try and unite these voices, which is why it's great. Thank you for joining us today. And I think that one of the things that currently everybody's very concerned about the economy, and rightfully so, I understand that. But what we have found is that when you start tracking good data, quality data, ⁓ you use this in a prescriptive and a predictive way, sustainability and, and, you know, economies and waste reduction and savings, like it's all connected. And in fact, you know, the exciting part is that there's a compelling economic story when we start to do these things more sustainably that has, has the potential to save, you know, millions and hundreds of millions of dollars, right? So that's kind of the, the waste component of the work that we do. And I think if we can tell that story as well as the Okay, we need to protect our natural waters because our very lives depend on it, not just ours. Like you mentioned, think 20 % of the world's freshwater, right? ⁓ MARK OLAF MATTSON: And so many. 100 % I think of Mark Fisher, he's the new Canada Water Agency president. He was with the Council of Great Lakes region before and he used to always say, ⁓ the Great Lakes make up, know, if it was one economy, it's the fifth biggest economy in the world. Which is so true. And yet that whole economy is based on the freshwater of the Great Lakes. And I know that we all know that. And yet every time I turn on CNN, they call it the Rust Belt. I mean, ⁓ It is not a rust belt. we allow that. an environmental and protecting the water of the Great Lakes is an economic issue. ⁓ if we, if it can hold us together in way that we're able to open up those, you know. Els Vanbeckevoort: I MARK OLAF MATTSON: I think these amazing technologies, we use the same power grid all across the Great Lakes. We have to all drink the same water. There's so much more that holds us together than pushes us apart. think the fact that we're Canada, US, and I really believe economically it is the fresh water of the Great Lakes that'll hold us together if we can ⁓ to share responsibility and understand that our prosperity. is linked to its And so, yeah, I'm not against all the business and industry and, ⁓ you and thinking we need to turn the Great Lakes into a park. ⁓ I think we need to protect, ⁓ you know, the use of drinkable. That's why I use drinkable, swimmable, drinkable, fishable. Those are yeah, and if we can protect that for people, amazing. Just think of much protection we're offering the wildlife that can't read the no swimming, drinking, no fishing slides. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yup, and we can. Makes perfect sense. Yeah, it's all connected. like you say, it's all connected. ⁓ you're Like I said, it takes a team, right? It takes many of us ⁓ to to move the pendulum in a different direction. We work with ⁓ some greenhouses, food producers, and ⁓ people about sustainability. MARK OLAF MATTSON: So thank you. Els Vanbeckevoort: And so maybe my question for you is, what resilience lessons from your Great Lake advocacy work apply to those closed loop water management systems? mean, I know that quite complicated to grow food and to grow plants. And there's obviously pollution considerations in all of this. So is there something that you feel is applicable and that could be shared with our guests are ⁓ coming from space? MARK OLAF MATTSON: Well, we were at the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture in Guelph not too long ago, it our first time really meeting with them all, and they were talking with us, and we had a lot more in common than we thought. I think a lot of times, ⁓ know, the agriculturals and the farmers are worried about environmentalists, you know, for a million reasons. Not to have to do with water, but Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: there's a shared concern about water and water use and protecting water and where they get their water. And so we're just beginning to build that relationship. with them because they're such an important part of the overall protection of our rivers and creeks and keeping topsoil on the land as opposed to running off. And there's a lot of issues too around glyphosates and pesticides and agriculture of fertilizer. So there's a lot going on and the industry is changing in a lot of ways. So I think I'm going to find myself in a room more and more. And I do, I worked on farms. Island is a very farming community. So it's very, I know very much how they feel. And I know it's a little tough for me sometimes to, you know, convince them to come and listen to stories about waters right now, but they are and they get in there and they know so much. And I think there's so much that can be gained and shared and collaborated on together. And so. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: When I look at the watershed for the Great Lakes, our binogamy map with Canadian Geographic, I mean, you look at it, it's tons of water, but there's tons of agricultural lands and farming. We're the breadbasket really for so much. so open to learning more. It's not something I would say has been my forte. I've dealt a lot more in toxins and sewage and landfills. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Right. primary focus. MARK OLAF MATTSON: But this is an area that I think is part of my growth, certainly in our organization, swimmable, drinkable, fishable water. mean, need to work together with the ⁓ communities and ⁓ willing to do it. Yeah. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yeah, no, I think they're open and and you know, they're also looking at more sustainable regenerative practices, right? Like there is so much opportunity and there's so much knowledge now. know, some of the work that we do looks at microbiomes and how to support healthy microbiomes and water systems. And, you know, more isn't more is not better. Like, you know, there's there's obviously a need to deal with pathogens, whether that's human pathogens, plant pathogens, you know, any disease pressures, but also in a way that builds resilience rather than just, you know, try and kill off everything and then, you know, make room for superbugs and all kinds of, you know, E. coli resistant, like bacteria, for example, that exist in our natural environment. And so I think ⁓ is important to bring all of those people together in our conversations because together, you know, we can come up with solutions that actually look at these things ⁓ a more holistic way. Like another area that, you know, we work in is in municipal MARK OLAF MATTSON: years. Els Vanbeckevoort: pools and drinking water systems and compliance. Like all of the people we work with work very hard at compliance ⁓ everybody does their best to keep these spaces safe as much as they can. So we're proponents of redefining safe. I mean, that's what's happening in other jurisdictions. So if you were to, of course, Canada, we have so much space, so much land, so much water. I'm originally from Belgium where, I mean, you know, lots of people in a very tiny little country with very little, little natural environment. So regulations have become very strict, both in terms of natural waters, what's allowed to go into those waters, well as regulations and, know, where water is treated and ⁓ industrial rules, if you like, for, you know, what you can waste and on and so forth. And so our perspective is, well, why wait until, you know, we are like those countries? Like, why not? ⁓ make our safe a little bit more holistic and include things like disinfection byproducts, PFAS, thermal pollution. How do you see that? Should we be working on the regulatory framework now and align ourselves more with other nations? You mentioned New Zealand already, countries in the world where this has become much more important ⁓ certainly that seems to really drive innovation in those countries. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah, I wish there were more. I wish we collaborated more internationally. mean, you're from Belgium. I had a couple of aunts living in Belgium, visited them in 1989. It was first time I ever saw on-demand hot water heaters where you only got your hot water when you turned on the tap. You know, we have these big things in our basement that kept the hot water all the time. So I came back and asked about it. Well, you know, here in Ontario, we have a subsidy that goes to hot water tanks. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: There's no need, you we use 10 times more energy. there's so much going on in the world that we can learn from right now. But I just, you know, they're different markets. ⁓ are monopolies, ⁓ controlled, private controlled. There's different pricing. It's, I think it's mainly the regulatory system and the marketing. We're just so used to one way. And so to bring in people and talk about the changes that can be made to improve our way. You know, they're hard to organize. And then there are great think tanks that have talked about these issues, but try and implement them and execute them. I do water keepers where... Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: you know, swim guides in 15 countries, water keepers are in 38. We get together once a year. I meet people from all around the world. They're so people do things so differently. But at the end of the day, everyone's got the same goal, which is funny. So I think Canada and maybe we're starting to realize this right now. I think we have to, you know, be a little bit more thoughtful and Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Absolutely. MARK OLAF MATTSON: and creative and be prepared to make some changes to improve the way we've been doing things. think Canada has been at the bottom of the, you know, the environmental index put out by the world, you know, who does the best? Like we have so much water that we've been able to pollute more than other countries because we just dilute it. I mean, we haven't seen though, like you're saying in Belgium, you have so little, you're so, you you've developed. ways to protect it. And I see that in Calgary, you know, they only get their drinking water from these glaciers and these rivers that North Saskatchewan, the bow, the elbow, that's their only real water. And so they've developed techniques to protect it. And I think, I don't know, we have to be open to it. We have to assess it, we should learn from each other. And we definitely should be learning from other countries because I think Canadians would be surprised to know that there are solutions to a lot of these problems we have. Els Vanbeckevoort: That's it. Necessity. Agreed. And I think, you know, I think as well in Canada, we have an opportunity to really lead, right? Like we're well respected in the world still. And people look at this country with, you know, the pristine beauty, the natural environment. Like there's so much admiration for this. And I think that would give us, and also historically, some of the things that we've contributed to. But I think we have to kind of match that with some MARK OLAF MATTSON: that we've just not perfected. Yeah. Yeah. Els Vanbeckevoort: And that's where we to kind close the gap between this perspective of our nation and where we can get to as well. And maybe that leads me to another question for you. Like I know you do a lot of work with indigenous leaders ⁓ like mentioned the Anishinaabe water Yes. And like, how can that cultural lens maybe help us inform modern policy and tech solutions? Like what's your perspective on that? MARK OLAF MATTSON: But you... the knowledge. Well, first and foremost, mean, the languages and the stories and the culture around First Nations communities. I there's so many of them on the Great Lakes. think there's 178 First Nations that we work with. But, you know, they're so different. The Innu are different from the Haudenosaunee and the Anishinaabeg and different languages. But there's stories in their culture and they take us back and they increase the inter- like the interestingness and the meaningfulness of the stories around the Great Lakes in Canada, etc. So first and foremost, they're just some of the greatest. peoples and stories and cultures to be around. And to have that really does help us when we talk about the protections of waters and different perspectives on it. But the second thing is that I have found that sharing responsibility with First Nations means, you know, not just recognizing them, but truly, you know, being at the table with them and equally and listening and having them drive the car sometimes. It's amazed me, particularly through our binoculars, project, which the name was given to us by the Anishinadic leaders. We had a different name for it. It was called Great Lakes Guide. But it was because of their involvement and they wanted a word that truly crossed all boundaries and borders and captured the idea of clean water and shared responsibility. And so that word is binogame and it's an Anishinaabeg name. But just ⁓ water, ⁓ but it means a lot more than that. It means what? ⁓ Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. captured. What does that mean? More than that, yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: sharing responsibility, clean water, it really was the name they gave to the Great Lakes. You know, and it was an elder, a family member. was, you know, but and then we try and explain on our website if you go to it. It's there's some great stories there. We have some AAR there. But I think the one thing I hear from the First Nations leaders, especially with the Cities Initiative, for example, the Great Lakes Cities Initiative in front of all the mayors. And there are shared circles. So I travel with them a lot, but they almost always say Don't be so afraid of us. like everyone's walking around on broken egg shells. ⁓ you're afraid we're going to take back or take your children. We're going to we're angry. We're going to be reactive. And, know, that has not been my experience, nor have I have I heard that from the elders and the leaders in the communities. It's that, you know, there really is a sense of trying to build a relationship, a real Els Vanbeckevoort: Right. MARK OLAF MATTSON: deep one, a strong one, working together common and shared goals. So I know that's very different from what we hear in the newspapers and what they report on and stuff. But, you I always it funny. I go to Kitchener and WLU or Laurier and I grew up there and I didn't know ⁓ which First were in the Grand River watershed, which is our sub watershed in the Great Lakes. Like, I don't know if you're in Ottawa, like what are the First Nations? So you go to some of these things and they Els Vanbeckevoort: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. MARK OLAF MATTSON: do this general acknowledgement of First Nations and land. And I'm thinking, why are we inviting the chiefs from our watershed to our events? Why aren't we talking about their history and what language? And, you know, for mayors, I think that's really important. I think the mayor of Kitchener should really know the chief at the in the Six Nations in Brantford because they share the Grand River. And everything Kitchener puts into that river, even though when I grew up, it was so bad. Els Vanbeckevoort: I'll go on quick. Yeah. MARK OLAF MATTSON: you know, the First Nations are drinking it and swimming in it and eating the fish from it just 40 miles downstream. And so as you build these relationships, start to recognize that there is a shared responsibility. I'm, you know, the American tribes, I'm meeting and they're amazing. And, you know, they have languages that go across borders with Canadians and now with ice and, know, you can't get across the border without, it's really splitting families and communities. Like ⁓ just, Els Vanbeckevoort: Right. Yes. Right. MARK OLAF MATTSON: It's such a different way to see things. Just like when I first went on the water in a boat and I saw the lake differently from the water. It's working with First Nations. You just see things a little differently and you see how improved you're taking those filters away and seeing it through these eyes improves your knowledge of how to collaborate, share and create a meaningful. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes. Yes. MARK OLAF MATTSON: relationships going forward. that's all I encourage. I mean, I don't have much advice other than to say that, know, getting out there, visiting, going communities, visiting your dinners or your parties or your events ⁓ a meaningful way is important as opposed to just, you know, bringing the someone indigenous just because you feel you have to because it's one of the boxes on your conference sheet, right? Like that's that's very different. But the elders are amazing and the communities are amazing and the youth are inspiring and the stories are just incredible and we're lucky to live together and beside them on the Great Lakes and it's a real privilege. Els Vanbeckevoort: It is. you know, it's interesting once you build a relationship with someone then ⁓ ⁓ everything anyways, like your whole perspective. It's the distance, often the disconnection that causes a lot of the problems, right? Like whether that's disconnection from the natural environment, disconnection from people groups within our nation. so collaboration always the way to go. Communication is always the way to go. There may be cultural differences, of course, and ⁓ perception. MARK OLAF MATTSON: 100%. Els Vanbeckevoort: But generally speaking, I am convinced that those groups of people can really help us to understand the natural environment a little bit differently and better. And beyond that, I've this firsthand where we've tried to get connected into some projects for solving water quality issues in of those communities. there is a lot people talking about, but not a lot of people talking with. And it seems to take an enormous amount of time to get things moving forward. So I'm encouraged by that, that you're spending a lot of time actively consulting with, engaging with, and having conversations with, and finding it productive and fairly straightforward, and then bring that into a broader sense of community as well. So I think that that can only be a good thing. Part of my... MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah, future's right there. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yeah, no, that's excellent. was going to say that the other piece of that is, know, tech solutions, like, know, what does that look like? ⁓ I think that there's still perhaps, like, know, for some in some parts of our ⁓ Canadian ⁓ tech solutions are accepted or understood or something that we need to strive for. But, you know, I think that has to be readily available to everybody. Right? Like there has to be an equity from that perspective as well. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah, technology in and of itself be a little overwhelming, but when it's used to connect you to things, to share information, to improve, helping get together with the right people and more often and frequently, there's so much ⁓ that's about it. And I know we hear all the negative things and there are, but maybe... you know, if you're sitting on your games all the time or you're gambling or doing other things with your amazing new websites. But generally speaking, you know, more data, more access, you know, the Dewey Decimal System was the one I grew up with at the library, subject index author. You know, ⁓ for me to be able to have access to the world, right, from my computer and to get information and to share and to visit with people and do things like this with you. ⁓ Els Vanbeckevoort: Great. MARK OLAF MATTSON: while I'm away. It's just a great thing. I just, know it's a double edged sword, but yeah, there's lot of hope I see in it that's possible. Yeah. Els Vanbeckevoort: And wisdom, right? Like you have to use wisdom. Like it's not just knowledge, it's wisdom and combining those two together. I think that's kind of. MARK OLAF MATTSON: 100%. If you hang out more by the water, it'll tell you. You'll be wiser. Guaranteed. Els Vanbeckevoort: Hanging out by the water. No, no, agree. agree. Yeah. God. No, for the water. It's a beautiful thing. ⁓ Maybe, you know, to close our Like, what gives hope right now? Like, if you think about it, Mark, like, is there a project, a community or leader that's pushing us towards, you know, truly swimmable Great Lakes? MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah. Els Vanbeckevoort: or something that you can, or story that you can share with us that says, okay, I have great hope, things are gonna happen. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Well... Yeah, I mean, I think one of the great things for me was when I started, really was concerned. My major concern was that we wouldn't be able to swim in the water anymore on Wolf Island where I grew up. We saw condoms and needles and tampon applicators, plastics floating up on the shoreline. We're thinking, where is this coming from? And I knew that it was coming from people flushing these things down the toilets and they were overflowing into the water. you know, and I couldn't really get people to care. People in Kingston thought, well, you only swim. No one swims in the lake. And their parents would tell them, if you fell in the lake, you make sure you take a shower. ⁓ Downey, who was with the Tragical Hip, was a friend of mine, George Myborn, was a trustee, and he lived across the street from this pier in front of Queens University. And he always said to me, well, I'll join you and I'll help you, but you know, maybe one day we'll be able to swim again in the lake. And like said, we worked on, we sampled the water, we did sewage. we did an environmental bill of rights application and eventually the utility said, hey, we're with you. I don't know why we're fighting you. So they started doing work to clean up Kingston's waterfront and then, you know, the Weston family said, hey, we have some money. We'll hire an architect to design a swimming pier. And that was Claude Cormier from Montreal. The Weston family paid for it. The city did a restoration. Well, it became the Gord-Edgar Downey Pier where in the first year, 250,000 people went swimming off it. And I know everybody who has a kid who goes to Queens now, her student says before they go to Queens they need a bathing suit. it's so beautiful and it's built right in this cold 20 feet off where you jump in. It's got a shallow area, it's got everything you could put, steps going in, it's so beautiful. And and everybody who goes now they've built Richardson Beach and everybody who to Kingston now. talks most about going swimming in the lake. And so that happened in 20 years. And if this can continue to spread and, you know, to think in Ottawa that you have the river house now, to think what we're doing in North Pan and to think what is possible for new Canadians and older Canadians and to think that we treat our water with that much respect. And that's only in 20 years. ⁓ we can keep doing if Sundriks fish and, you know, the type of idea getting people to the lake more and building on this, just think what will be in another 20 years. Els Vanbeckevoort: beautiful. MARK OLAF MATTSON: That's what keeps me hopeful is just watching the people come back to the water's edge and find new ways to interact with it and protect it and restore it. Els Vanbeckevoort: Yeah, that's a great message. And I think if we can get the education piece out there a little bit more, gets people some understanding in terms of data, maybe we can speed it up a little. You don't have to wait another 20 years. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah. Els Vanbeckevoort: All right? that's the hope. That's the hope. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Yeah, maybe, you know, yeah, maybe someone could come along who's Els Vanbeckevoort: I don't know about that. ⁓ think advocacy is a special skill and obviously you seem to have it. But I think getting some, yeah, like a water health index, we apply it in different application areas, but I think on the drinking water side, on the natural water side, think something like that. that's kind of my vision as well, that ⁓ can be used kind of as a... MARK OLAF MATTSON: I tried. No, I don't. Els Vanbeckevoort: in a charitable way in that sense so that people can access it anywhere everywhere just like they are doing right now with your sites and and you know that would kind of drive change right because if if your score isn't good if your water health score isn't good you're going to be motivated to make it better and that's kind of the the little piece that we try to kind of bring into this conversation as well so there anything else that i miss mark or like is there anything that we need to MARK OLAF MATTSON: 100%. 100%. Els Vanbeckevoort: that we still need to cover to inspire action. Because I think you... MARK OLAF MATTSON: ⁓ I'm just grateful you called. ⁓ I know I talked to Daniel, your producer, and he had been listening to some of the... We did a podcast between 207 and... And they're on SoundCloud. Just look up Lake Ontario Waterkeeper. But it's interesting to hear the issues. We did 100 shows, but we talk about these issues. And then you go back 16 years later and you go, ⁓ my God. of them are still alive. We learn from them. We ⁓ prophetic in some and stupid in others, but it's just been really... Els Vanbeckevoort: Yes! Yeah, in a short time. MARK OLAF MATTSON: For me, it's been fun to, we didn't really post, we took them down over the years, but put them back up and people are calling and saying, wow, it's really amazing to hear about that. Els Vanbeckevoort: put them up and sorry, what was it called? Sorry, what was your podcast called? MARK OLAF MATTSON: The show's called Living at the Barricades and I put them up on SoundCloud. So SoundCloud's a platform. And if you just look in for like Ontario Waterkeeper, we've got hundreds of shows and they're all half hour and they're great music and people and amazing interviews, just like good interviewer like you. so thank you very much. These are really important talks. Grateful. Els Vanbeckevoort: SoundCloud. Perfect. Yeah, you're welcome, Mark. It's a true pleasure. I'm very grateful to have had you. for our listeners, please go and check it out on SoundCloud. Living at the Barricade sounds like a great title. We'll link to it as well. Really appreciate this conversation and your insights and your passion. Keep it up, please. Don't stop. It's very motivating also for us to hear that people care about what we care about. And yeah. MARK OLAF MATTSON: Thank you. Els Vanbeckevoort: We'll catch each other hopefully again down the road and you can update us on what's going on. want to thank our audience as well ⁓ joining us in this fascinating conversation with Mark. You can re-listen to this episode by subscribing to our YouTube channel. If you have any ideas for future topics or guests, please don't hesitate to email us at mywatertalks at cinecotech.com. Please don't forget to subscribe, share or like ⁓ that you can also hear about future episodes and other interesting updates. Thank you all. Thank you, Mark. MARK OLAF MATTSON: sure. Els Vanbeckevoort: Have a great rest of the day.