Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Welcome back to the Uncomfortable Trathon podcast. I am one of your hosts, Andrew Horstwell Turner, and Harry and I have just spent about an hour trying to get on this recording because technology hates us. How are you doing, Harry? Harry: Yeah, we've not had a good evening of it. ⁓ Andy I was I was just sat here on my laptop thinking, bloody hell, Andy's taking forever to do this. And then he sends me the link to Riverside, the platform that we record the podcast on. And I clicked on it and I had the exactly same issue which was I don't even know what it was, re-downloading Chrome or some shit. So I d we decided to bin that off when we're using our phones and hopefully it works. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good old technology. So yeah, I'm not sure if the audio might be a little bit crap today, but ⁓ unlucky for you guys listening at home. Harry: Fingers crossed. Yeah, yeah. I mean you'll just have to bear with us and I mean, hopefully you listen to the whole thing, but if you don't, I yeah. We can maybe recommend a few other podcasts you'd want to go and listen to. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, like there's probably that really good one that you have beef with. Is it ⁓ the Trash on Allah? Harry: ⁓ yeah, that that not very well known one. Yeah, that one. ⁓ no, no, the host is a bit of a bell and just to clear everything up to everyone, 'cause maybe you've seen the the post that I did on Instagram or whatever, about Jack. He basically I this is so out of context. I basically clipped an audio of him Andrew Horsfall-Turner: No one listens to that podcast. Yeah. Harry: Kind of like ripping into me a little bit about winning challenge champs, but it was out of context because straight after that he was like, ⁓ no, fair play to Harry and whatever. And like Sam Appleton was bigging me up, which which was obviously very nice of him. ⁓ I clipped that and made it look like he was really ripping into me and did like a reaction video. And and it was just purely for a bit of fun. Like I don't have any issues with Jack. I don't have really any issues. with anyone to be honest. I find it just funny. And I thought it would be it would be funny. Yeah. I thought it would be funny to do a video because I knew it would get some good traction. And ⁓ and it did. And it was hilarious. So yeah, I do just want to say to everyone that was a joke. I don't feel any kind of any way about Jack or his podcast or whatever. I think it's funny and I just wanted to Andrew Horsfall-Turner: It was hilarious, so Mm. Harry: Make the video to make him squeal a little bit. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: And you know, with with all good content, you just you just have to push things out and just try and cause a bit of controversy because without that then ⁓ social media is a bit boring, isn't it? Harry: Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Like why not like I don't know pretend to start a fight with someone, it's quite funny. ⁓ but but yeah, that's that went a little bit too crazy. So yeah. ⁓ but no his podcast is great, ours is just obviously a little bit Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, and hopefully hopefully a bit of beef ⁓ might have might hopefully create a couple of new listeners today, but we'll we'll see. Harry: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you've come over from the beef, ⁓ then hopefully you you stay for for the good chat. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: The the great chat. The great chat. ⁓ we've actually yeah we've got a we've got a bit of an interesting one for you guys ⁓ this week. So we just wanted to quickly have a bit of a I guess it's like a little bit of a filler episode because we haven't recorded for about a week and a half or so. ⁓ I've been away and Harry's also been away. ⁓ so we wanted to basically chat around Harry's trip to the wind tunnel, which we'll be super interested to hear. He's gonna give us all the secrets and then we'll chat a little bit around Harry: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: me tr I guess me training on a family holiday and I guess maybe how applicable that is to people who have kids, wives, partners, and they're building up for a race this summer and they've got like a a week away or a couple of weeks away planned. ⁓ but then yeah, we've actually got a really cool episode coming out next week, as long as it happens, which will be the Kieran Linders episode. so hopefully that gets recorded in the next few days. ⁓ Kieran, don't let me down now. But yeah, mate, let's let's dive straight into it. ⁓ you took a little trip to the place where all good cyclists go and that is Denmark. Harry: Yeah. Big K Dog, come on. Yeah, it was it was really cool actually. So I'm very grateful to Fusion for the opportunity. ⁓ it's really cool actually like within the contract that I signed with with Fusion it's kind of included that you get an opportunity to go to the wind tunnel, which is really cool. It's like a new facility that they've that they've got there. I do have to say, getting to Denmark is an absolute bullleg. So Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: we essentially had a block in the tunnel. It was ⁓ Monday afternoon and then the whole of Tuesday. And so I went out with ⁓ Jamie, who owns multi-sport distribution in the UK. So he's like the UK distributor for fusion kit. And they do loads of other brands as well, like Salt Stick and I think ISM Saddles and a few other bits. Like really, really sound guy. And so we were gonna go out together. And we could fly from I think it was Heathrow, we went from. So I I had to wake up on Monday morning at two forty five. yeah, that I didn't enjoy that. ⁓ then got a flight to Copenhagen. We then had a ninety minute layover, and then we had to get ⁓ our next flight from Copenhagen to Auburgh. Or I I mean my pronunciation of that's kinda it's shocking, but Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Oof. Harry: ⁓ and then we got we we got picked up by one of the lads from Fusion and then it was like maybe a that's a 25, 30 minute drive to Fusion HQ. so that was already like quite a long morning. By the time we got there, it was maybe ⁓ one o'clock in the afternoon or something. they made me they made me a coffee and they were like, Cool, the boys in the wind tunnel are gonna build up your bike. It'll be ready in half an hour. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah. Ideal. Harry: And you can get in the wind tunnel. And was like, holy shit, like I've been up since two forty-five. I'm absolutely bull bagged. I I I can't see straight. I don't know my ass from my elbow. I'm like, holy fuck, how am I gonna go sit in the wind tunnel now? ⁓ and then I was doing wind tunnel tests. We maybe did fifteen or sixteen individual tests on the Monday afternoon. So it was quite a f like a good few hours in the tunnel. ⁓ Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Ha ha Yeah. Nice. Mm. Harry: And I was absolutely knacker. That was probably the hardest thing. I'm not gonna say it's the hardest thing I've ever had to do, but like you what it's like in the tunnel, like you actually have to concentrate, you have to hold your body still, you have to really like focus. Yeah. Yeah. So for anyone who's go on. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You have to push the pedals as well, like it's not it's not that easy. Did you ⁓ No, I was just gonna ask around the yeah, you did obviously long morning, had a coffee, got straight on. I think a lot of people when they go to the tunnel forget like you actually cycle quite a bit and it's quite a lot of like waiting around. Like did you take did you take snacks, did you take nutrition, ⁓ or were you just completely running on fumes? Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I did bring quite a few gels 'cause I've and I I I learnt from in the past 'cause I've done I did a wind tunnel session with Argon at Silverstone maybe last year and I didn't take anything and I regretted it so much. So I I brought almost almost too many gels this time, which was good. And they had they had snacks available and everything and they like catered for me completely. Like it was incredible. Like I I had I had to do Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Okay. ⁓ man. Ha ha ha. Harry: pretty much nothing when I was there. Like the guys did everything. They built up my bike, they sorted everything out, food, everything was ⁓ was was put on for you there. They've got their own like flat for for like the pro riders and the pro athletes that show up. So you literally stay on site. Like the facilities are incredible. Like genuinely if I lived in Denmark, I would want to work for Fusion. Like unbelievable. It's like Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. So I do. Harry: Such a cool place. Everyone is absolutely lovely. the owners are just like they just absolutely love the sport and they yeah, they're they're such cool people. ⁓ so yeah, it was it was really awesome. but for anyone who who's never been in a wind tunnel before, essentially I'll try and like sort of describe it. You're essentially like on on on your bike, static, and you get into position and they sort of You start pedaling and you've got no airflow whatsoever. So and you've got, you know, you've got your helmet on, you've got your kit on. And so you start your body gets hot quite quickly. You start sweating, you start getting a little bit uncomfortable, but you've got to really hold your position. So you're even your upper body, like you're you're you're tensing your core, you're tensing your shoulders, you're you're cranking your neck a little bit, and they draw essentially this outline around You know, maybe your hand position, your head position, your back position. So you you know the point where you need to hold. and then maybe after like a minute or so, the fan and the turbine will start and you'll get whatever speed they want to test. Maybe it's 40k an hour, 50k an hour, and let's say 60k an hour. and they'll do different your angles to like five, ten, fifteen degree, and they'll spin you around essentially. And the test maybe takes what do you reckon? Is it like three minutes or something? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: Three or four minutes. ⁓ Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Depend it depends how depends how ⁓ how quickly they change, but they can do like thirty second thirty seconds shift your angle, thirty seconds, or like I know that some more extensive tests they'll like they'll blow the wind for like multiple minutes on a single test because I guess that's more opportunity for you to be more natural and maybe move around a little bit more, ⁓ like how you would outside. ⁓ but again it depends on depends on who's running the the actual test that you're doing, isn't it? Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. and so you basically start off really quite warm and sweaty, the wind then hits you, and when actually when the wind's really picking up, actually gets a little bit cold, and then and then the wind stops, and you're still pedaling, and then you get hot and sweaty again. So you pretty much spend the whole day being sweaty or freezing. And it's it's quite funny. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm-hmm. Nice. Harry: And then obviously every time you want to change something, you change one little bit at a time because you don't you don't want to change more than one thing because then you don't know if it's one or multiple things that are affecting the CDA, which essentially means how aerodynamic you are for anyone who doesn't know. ⁓ and yeah, it was mate, it was it was so cool. They have all the equipment there you can think of, all the helmets. We obviously tested different size of suit, calf guards, ⁓ Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: And then like cockpit position, bottle positions, anything you could kind of think of, which is really exciting. Cause I know we mentioned in the last podcast it's cool to not be completely fully sponsored by every single thing you can think of. You know, like having a helmet sponsor and a shoe sponsor and all of this kind of stuff, because it completely locks you in. Whereas it was exciting to think, ⁓ I don't have a helmet sponsor, so I can try all these different helmets and like. Lo and behold, the Rudy project was the fastest. So now I need to spend four hundred quid on a new bloody helm. Yeah. Well, I think unlucky for them, they don't actually sell the products there. So yeah, yeah, that's something they could maybe think about. But yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: It's literally tech textbook they've got you there. They're like, right, how do we charge Harry at least four hundred quid? Let's go. ⁓ Damn it. That's where they're go that's where they're going wrong. They should have I was gonna say they should have like an in house shop and like, right, this helmet's fastest for you, we'll have some cash. Harry: Yeah, they definitely should. They definitely should. the only helmet that I wanted to test but they didn't have, 'cause I don't think it's been released yet, is the new Abus. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Right, mate. ⁓ Yeah. That's yeah, I'm super interested on that one as well. It looks it looks really good. Harry: But I would hate to know if it's faster, because I've heard it's gonna be about eight hundred quid. Which poof. Yeah, not sure about that one. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Is it? ⁓ my god, yeah. Yeah. No, don't don't go near it. Mate, I've got I guess this is kind of like up to you with how much you want to give away in terms of detail and stuff like that, because obviously it is your tests and your data. ⁓ but I was just gonna ask you a few questions around maybe some of the s the specifics of the test you did. Harry: Mm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ and obviously you mentioned there about like changing helmet to the Rudy. ⁓ I know we kind of spoke off off the record off off the podcast about front ends and I know that you switched from the the drag two zero to the ⁓ arrow grip, I think it's called, ⁓ front end. ⁓ and I know that kind of via voice notes you kind of mentioned some of the the data you got which was like some somewhere comparable between the sets and and stuff like that. Harry: Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Do do you mind going into detail on the tests you ran with the f the cockpits and and kind of what you found there? Harry: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. So the the wind tunnel itself, and you might know more about this than I do, was sort of set up by Simon Smart. So the guy who owns Drag to Zero, he's the kind of like their aerodynamic consultant. So there are links between fusion and drag to zero, aren't there? so they've got all of the parts you can think of, the drag to zero parts. And Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Harry: I did say to them, like, look, let's use this as an opportunity. Because like the aero grip is a very new setup and they've not necessarily seen much of it before. But I think it is the way that things are progressing. It's like a monocockpit setup. So they were they were very intrigued to test it against the drag to zero stuff. So I was like, well, you're giving me the opportunity to come to the tunnel. So let's let's take the opportunity to test both the setups and see see what's better. and it was really interesting. So we tested We did have to move things around a little bit with the drag to zero setup to kind of mimic ⁓ a similar position to the aero grip, because if if you can imagine, like the aero grip as a solid setup is not as adjustable as the drag to zero setup. So we did have to play around a little bit with the angle, ⁓ and and the fore and aft kind of kind of setup, but we did get it very close. And what was interesting is that Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah yeah. Harry: Both are setups very similar aerodynamically. However, I do have to say the aero grip is far more comfortable. ⁓ just because as if you can imagine, like the the surface area is just a lot bigger, and it's just like you can kind of lean into it a bit more and the sides are a bit higher. So it does it just allows you to to kind of like sink into it. the other thing of note was Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Okay. Okay. Yes, yeah. Harry: ⁓ because the Argon has a single stack riser, you do have to have that aluminium plate that makes it compatible with the drag to zero setup. So then that does add extra weight. So it's not only that the aero grip was more comfortable, but it's also a little bit lighter. ⁓ so out like in the wind tunnel, the setups are actually very, very similar. out on the road. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Little bit lighter, yeah, yeah. Harry: I just feel like I'd be more comfortable with the aero grip and it feels a little bit more agile when you've got a little bit less weight on the front end for like the bike always feels a little bit more snappy and a bit more responsive. so so that was that was really interesting. and then essentially what Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, what I what I thought was Karen, Karen, mate. No, I was just gonna Okay, ⁓ yeah, I was I was just gonna obviously jump on top of that, which was like that was for me one of those interesting questions I had because as you mentioned there, like Simon Smart Drag 2 Zero, I've worked with the guys for a couple of years. and I kind of experimented with like this spacer filler that the Drag Two Zero came out with for the point six six bars. Harry: Go on. No, no, no. Go on. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: and they were kind of finding that that was potentially saving some some watts. ⁓ and then obviously you see it nowadays with like, you know, Evolve, Aerogrip, ⁓ you know, there's way more brands out there who do it now, but these kind of custom, well much more customizable, not customisable, but much more individualised mono cockpits. ⁓ so it's interesting to see like what you know, is there a big advan like advantage going from Harry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: you know, the like a drag two zero is set up to like a much more like custom mono setup and like is the gain big in terms of like aerodynamics or weight and I guess then the flip of that would which I guess would be like if we look at like an age grouper who's buying and I actually think we kinda had a conversation about this a couple of years ago, which is like if you're not a hundred percent set on your position yet, then sometimes having like the drag two zero setup can be better. because its adjustability is quite significant. So I guess it's like there's pros and cons for I guess for every setup you kinda go for. Harry: Mm. Yeah. Hundred percent, hundred percent. It's always a bit of a trade-off. But they did actually say what was really interesting is obviously the mono setup and the aero grip as a whole is quite like a big it's a big setup. So what they found was it really pushes the wind in a completely different way to let's say, for example, the drag two zero or or a regular like double pole setup. So actually you can get aero aero gains in places where potentially you wouldn't Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Okay. Harry: See as many benefits before. So let's say, for example, ⁓ what we found was and Fusion are bringing out some new calf guards, and so I was lucky enough to to test these. We found that actually with the aero grip cockpit, the calf guards made a far more significant aero advantage because if you think of it, the wind hitting the cockpit, it's pushing the aero grip, is pushing the wind in a completely different way. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Down. Harry: And so with the calf guards you were getting far more error benefit than if I was using drag to zero setup. So it's funny that let's say for example the cockpits are a similar advantage, but actually if you optimise other areas where the wind is being pushed by the aerogrip, you're actually getting a far significantly like faster setup, if that makes sense. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Faster overall setup. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And then I guess it goes goes into like the you know, bottle placement and then like, you know, different setups will favour different bottle placements and i it's I guess that's where it like you then have to really like hone in on your individual position and your body shape and you know, your bike, etcetera, etcetera. Because that's where like I guess like we kinda spoke, yeah, with a similar, maybe similar way, y you might be a tiny bit taller than I am and we Harry: Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: have like the same bike, et cetera, but there still will be slightly d difference, you know, slight difference in terms of aerodynamics from like U to I. And ⁓ it's it's is it does go back to that one that thing of like not one size fits all with aerodynamics and what works really well for you might not work for, you know, the next person. ⁓ but I guess to finish off this kind of aerodynamics chat, ⁓ Harry: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred percent. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: what was the lowest did they give you like a lowest C DA number and and if so, could you share that? Harry: Yeah, so ⁓ what I found very interesting is that whenever I've been to the Silverstone wind tunnel, I've never been able to get it that low compared to I mean, I don't know if people listening to this know too much about C DA, but you know, I've never been able to get it lower than point point zero or point point two, is it? Point yeah. Point two. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah, point two, yeah. Harry: I was always around like point two or point two one or something in Silverstone, which is like that's okay, but it's not like crazy good. Whereas it just goes to show like the different kind of the different wind tunnels maybe have different, I don't know, calibrations or whatever. But I think I was hovering around the point one seven, point one eight. now obviously take that with Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Nice. Okay. Harry: pinch of salt because that is completely in a controlled environment. And I do also have to add that after spending time in the wind tunnel, like obviously it's brilliant, but you're locked in a completely like a complete locked-in position. You don't know how it's going to feel out on the road. So actually since doing that test, I have taken the bike out on the road a few times. And what was hilarious is so we we dropped the front end Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Harry: fairly significantly and we pulled the aero grip cockpit closer to me and we found that was quite a significant arrow gain. However, because you're just sat in position in the wind on and you don't know how that's going to feel out on the road. So when I when I took when I took the bike out on the road the other day and I went to do like an out of saddle sprint, I I absolutely twatted my knee against the back of the cockpit. And I was like, shit. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yes. ⁓ mate, I've done this. I've done this before. It's the most painful thing ever. I've done it so Harry: I had I I I think I nearly cried. I'm not gonna lie. It hurt like hell. So I do have to be honest, since then I've moved the cockpit forward probably a centimetre. So it's still further back than what it was before I went in the tunnel, but it's like at the in-between point. And I have also raised the cockpit ever so slightly because we went down by quite a bit. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Ha Yeah. ⁓ Harry: And out on the road, it just felt a little bit too aggressive. So let's say my position is slightly less aero than what we got to in the tunnel, but it feels far more sustainable out on the road. And I think that's where you need to have a bit of compromise. is aero is fantastic and it's super important, but ultimately I still want to be able to push power, I still want to be comfortable, and I still want to be able to run off the bike. So it's like Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: having the perfect mix of everything. ⁓ so yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, a hundred percent, yeah, yeah. And I think that that's you're spot your spot on there with like that. It's y and I I guess the beauty of being going and doing such extensive testing is that they probably would have written down every configuration of every test you did. So and the knowledge that you've got with like dropping the stack, moving it like forward and backwards, you can almost, you know, guarantee that even moving forward a centimetre, etcetera, you're still in a very aerodynamic position and if you're giving away if you're giving away speed, you're giving away a watt or two and but a watt or two but a watt or two that means that you can see down the road, it means that you can stay in position. It it's well worth losing. Harry: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly that. Yeah. It's like willing to lose a little bit to gain actually more sustainability. Cause yeah, you know, you could absolutely slam your position, but if you can only hold it for five minutes at a time, it's like, well, that's probably not brilliant. So yeah, over a over a two hour bike leg, it's like, Well, if you have to sit up and stretch your back, you're losing all those gains anyway. So ⁓ yeah, but it was it was really interesting, mate, and I'd love to go back at some point and Andrew Horsfall-Turner: What's the point? Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, literally. Harry: You know, it's like position stuff and aerodynamics is always like a constant evolution, isn't it? With like not only your body but the equipment that's available and all of those like knowledge that's available as well of different things. I think it's it's quite exciting and interesting. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. You kinda wanna test like every time you get an opportunity to get something different or, you know, potentially ride like a new wheel set or or whatever it might be. You even you again you still like you individually want to kind of see that data for your bike and your position, etc. So yeah, it's it's a shame that the fusion tunnel is so difficult for you to get to. but at the same time as well, like it's not like you're gonna pay to go in Silverstone every other month. Harry: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: because it'll cost you a fortune too. So ⁓ yeah, take take the win the winner the win that you got from ⁓ from the games that you found. Harry: Exactly that. No, exactly. No, it was a really, really cool opportunity. and yeah, I look forward to another one. So Gorn, why don't you talk to us a little bit about your 'cause you've been away on I don't want to call it a training camp because it was a family holiday, but I think you you managed to get a little bit of training in. So Gorn, tell us about that. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: It was definitely a family holiday, yeah. ⁓ yeah, it was it was it was pretty good actually. ⁓ so I went away with my in laws and also my sister's brother and her family and his family, sorry. and it was kind of a trip that was planned like literally like a year ago before I knew whatever races I was gonna do or or kind of anything like that. So ⁓ it was very much like a a planned family holiday. ⁓ But that's not to say that like because I'm on holiday, I kind of I'm still gonna be able to tr like I still need to train because I've still got races coming up. Like I'm racing again in like nine days time now. so there's always a bit of a compromise between like how much holiday you have and how much like training you get in. ⁓ but I guess I'm not gonna say that I'm like I'm perfection and I I nailed it and I did the perfect job. Harry: Mm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: But I do think it's an interesting topic because there's a lot of people in the next two or three months who will go away with their family, their kids, ⁓ on like a family holiday and then they will have a race in the summer or a race at the end of the summer. ⁓ you know, a good textbook one for around here is like Iron Man Wales in the middle of September. ⁓ so if you're going on a family holiday in August, I think it's like how do you deal with the pressure of feeling like you need to train? But also understanding that like you're on a family holiday. So I guess from what I did is I have a coach, ⁓ which I think is really important. And I we kind of under like had a conversation around what the holiday looked like, kind of like what I needed to potentially do. ⁓ and I'm racing some seventy point three, so we kind of like the idea was like intensity is probably more important than, you know, massive volume. ⁓ Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: So we prioritized a bit of bike intensity, a bit of run intensity, ⁓ throughout the week. ⁓ and that worked really, really well. ⁓ and then swimming wise, I just had access to open water. So again, not ideal, but I was able to still get the swim volume I needed to in. ⁓ but I guess what I try to do with with young kids is I try to get up early and try and get a session done pre breakfast. So Harry: Mm-hmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: the it was basically light from about quarter past six in the morning. So I'd get up get out straight away for a run or or a ride ⁓ and get one of those sessions done. ⁓ and then I would obviously like swim later in the day when I was at the beach with the family because, you know, if you're spending six, seven, eight hours at the beach, ⁓ you know, there's gonna be a like an empty forty five minutes to an hour where you can go and get a swim done. It's like it's no drama sort of thing. ⁓ so I guess like what I did is like I think Harry: Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: nothing massive. Like I think in the week I was away I I trained like sixteen and a half hours maybe. ⁓ which is Harry: Me that's pretty that is pretty big actually. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Well it's not it's not and and I and I nailed in terms of like the intensity kind of like if you looked at like the ratios in terms of like what a normal week was, I probably got the same amount of intensity or TSS like intensity that I would in a in like a normal week. ⁓ but just a hell of a lot less volume, I guess like cut a lot of the fluff out. ⁓ which I think is the way to kind of go about it. ⁓ and that kind of goes on to like Harry: Mm. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I guess if you if people are going away on a holiday and they're training for a race is just like and I kind of said this to you when I when we were chatting about it, like going away is like yes, the weather's nice and yes, you know, you want to go ride your bike 'cause it's a cool country, like you're in a different location, et cetera, et cetera. But like when you're away with your family is not the opportunity to go ride your bike for six, seven hours. Like Harry: Mm. Yeah yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Your family gonna hate you. Your family will hate you by the end of the holiday. But you can still do a lot, like you can do a lot and kind of tick the box with kind of continuing your training towards a big race and just save those big six hour rides for like a rainy day in the UK when you get back and just man up, you know? It's like ⁓ But yeah, I I guess I guess what what what your thoughts on the whole kind of training like Harry: Mm. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Obviously I know you haven't got like a family and and that sort of thing, but what what would what would your thoughts be? But I guess I guess if you were in my if you're in my position or or guess you coach a bunch of athletes as well. So like what's your experience with with people going on like holiday with their families? Harry: mean mate, I don't have wife and kids, so I can do what I want. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, it's it's a very good good point 'cause I think maybe a lot of people would stress about not hitting certain volume or certain intensity, certain sessions, especially when they're close to racing. But it's like, let's be honest, what you go away for a week, ⁓ a week is not gonna disrupt too much. And I think your your family will very much appreciate you being available to them, especially if you've planned it in like specifically to go away with them. So I think let's say like if I was yeah, if I was advising one of my athletes or something, I've even got an athlete who's going away to Italy next week with his family. And I would maybe say, look, let's decide on a few key sessions that we want to hit. ⁓ and we try and protect those sessions. Obviously if they need to change day for whatever reason or time or whatever, they can be adaptable. But those are like key sessions that we want to hit. Let's let's say we've got a few of those and then everything else we do, it can be chopped and changed, it can be completely dropped, it whatever it is. but obviously it just it just comes back to like communication with the athlete because I also if if an athlete approached me and they were like, look, I've got this family holiday, I know it's maybe not ideal timing. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: But they would really appreciate me being there for the whole thing and I can't really do anything. I'd be like, yeah, 100%. That's not a problem at all. Like if it means having a week completely off, just have a week completely off. Like it's not if it like it's not it's not your job at the end of the day. Like obviously for you, like it is it is your job. So there is maybe a bit more selfishness you have to you have to bring to it, but Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, cool. Yeah, crack on, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely. Harry: you can you've obviously still shown that you can be completely adaptable with it where, you know, you get up early and you I don't know, you just make things you make things work. So I think people, yeah, they they should definitely just I think just be adaptable. Don't be scared of changing the plan because of X, Y, and Z and also just enjoy a bit of a bit of downtime. I think actually it's it's funny like You'll see it time and time again. People, when they have forced recovery for whatever reason, whether it's a holiday or whether it's a rec ⁓ it's it's an injury or an illness or whatever, you will always see them come back stronger. Like it's always a blessing in disguise. Every single time. When you when you're in the thick of it, you think, fuck me, this is horrible, and I feel like I'm losing fitness. But I guarantee you will come back feeling faster, fitter, more recovered. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yes, yeah, yeah. Harry: And so it's it's actually probably I would say it's probably a good thing. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Endurance athletes are weird, aren't they, mate? If you think about it, like we we get so s we get like so stressed about the like the intricate details, you know, like you'll know it, I I know it. People are looking at like how mu how many hours they've trained like this week, how many hours they train next week, or they we're so like focused on these little details and actually in the grand scheme of things, like yeah, like some metrics do help build up to your big race and they do matter, but like, you know Harry: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You see it time and time again, like someone is at their very fittest and they have a terrible race and then they have a terrible two or three months and then they they somehow start racing like incredibly and there's like that's the thing about I guess that's the thing about like racing is like it's not you know, if if training perfectly led to a perfect race, then like, you know, it would be so simple to coach because everyone would just you'd give someone a training plan Harry: Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: They tick the boxes, then they'd have this incredible race and like happy days. But like training is so ⁓ nuanced in the fact that chops, it changes, you know, you get ill, you get injured, you st have things happen in life, you have great training blocks, you have terrible training blocks, but everything kind of eventually comes together and that's what creates those good results long term. It's not yeah, it's never that it's never that day, it's never that week that's actually that important. Harry: Yeah. Yeah, hundred percent. I think it's it's interesting to think that. It's like just because you had let's and I I I don't think perfect even exists. Like I don't think I've ever had a perfect lead-up to race. I doubt you ever have as well. Like I don't think it's possible to have like the exact perfect ten out of ten prep. But even if you do have as close to perfect as you possibly can, it doesn't guarantee a good result. Like you get a higher chance potentially Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, no. Harry: Of seeing success, but it doesn't guarantee anything. And I actually had a a bit of an interesting discussion with ⁓ an athlete who ⁓ is no longer an athlete ⁓ from a race that didn't go pretend like really as well as they would have liked, even though they prepared really well for it. And I'm not I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I am the be all and end all and I'm an Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yes, yeah. Harry: Incredible coach and I know absolutely everything. Could I have done something differently? Could I have been better? ⁓ the answer is probably yes. I probably could have done things that are better and provided a a better plan and been, you know, like things could have been a bit better. However, I do feel like with the knowledge that I've got, the understanding that I've got of that athlete, and the preparation, I think was as good as we could possibly make it, and the race still wasn't fantastic, and they were really obvious, obviously, understandably. very bummed about that. But I did have to reiterate like perfect prep or really good prep doesn't guarantee a good result. But the longer you stick at it, the more chance you will have of receiving that good result in the future. And it is all like we we were chatting about like sustainability in the sport and that not getting bummed about the fact that, okay, yeah, you're probably really, really fit, but you haven't had an incredible result. The result will come if you keep being persistent. And I think you get rewarded for the Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yes, yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Th there's a the training lag, isn't it? Like sometimes there's like you know, sometimes you do the training and you get the results straight away and sometimes you do the training and ⁓ you have to wait six months or whatever. It's like there's there's there's sometime a l there's sometimes a lag from the work you put in to the results you see. Harry: Persistence, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's funny because it's like I I was thinking about this. Like I trained really hard for for Salu and I got chewed up and spat out. And I was like a bit bummed about that 'cause I was like, man, I thought I was in really good shape. And then and then Samarin went really well and it wasn't that long after and it was like Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: It was just it was just being patient. That was the only thing that was needed. Is like I was in good shape for both of them. I just needed a bit of patience. and I think that can yeah. That that's what ⁓ maybe a lot of people can learn from is like not getting frustrated by the bad results, even if you're in a good fitness position, because the good results will come. You just need to be I think patience is a big thing that people forget about. ⁓ they kind of want the results now. And it's like you kind of need to You need to pay the tax a little bit before you actually get the good result. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah yeah. No, no, completely agree. Completely agree. And I guess go going full circle, I guess the advice is if you're going on holiday this summer and you've got a race coming up is do the best you can. ⁓ but make sure that you focus and and don't like don't neglect your family. Make sure that that's the priority. And ⁓ I guess also just make sure you have a few beers, like that's you know, you're here you know, it's all part of the enjoyment, it's all part of like, you know, I pretty much had Harry: Yeah. Hundred percent. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: at least one beer every day I was on holiday. Like I'm not you know, I'm with family, I'm not there to get drunk or anything like that, but I'm I'm on a holiday. I want to enjoy myself. Life's too short. You know, that definitely I did the best I could training wise, but, you know, I definitely tried to maximize the holiday aspect as well. Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mate, I think that's I think that's really important. It looked like a sweet ass holiday. ⁓ so maybe it'll be something I don't know, in the future, if I if I ever have a wife and kids, ⁓ it'll be something I can get involved with as well. If not, I'll just take myself on holiday and have a few beers on my own. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mate, definitely. You'll be going out and riding your bike for six hours a day. Harry: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Mate, I'll have no excuse. I'll go on a holiday and I'll say, Yeah, yeah, I'm on a holiday. You're like, mate, there's no one else there, you've got bloody no excuse, mate. Get on your bike Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ man, man. But yeah, it to be fair, ⁓ it's so tempting though. Like when so I went out so Minorca's much smaller than Mallorca. ⁓ and I rented a bike just 'cause we were there with family, logistics to carry a bike box is a nightmare. ⁓ but I went out there and it's like ⁓ y you do like you go out for a couple of hours and you're like you definitely I did feel like I could ride my bike all day sort of thing because it's just you know sun Harry: Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Sun, you know, nice temperature, like different views, different roads you've never ridden before. Like I could see the temptation, but ⁓ yeah, I the longest session I think I did was it was meant to be a three hour ride and I think it was like two hours, forty eight minutes. I was like, yeah, that's as long as I'm doing this week. Yeah, yeah. Harry: Mm-hmm. Good enough. Mate, that's good enough. That is fair play. God, let's talk about a little bit about your 'cause you're racing. Is it next week? Is it challenge good is it Gaddansk or Gadinya or something? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, Gdanks. Yeah, Gdanks. ⁓ so that's next a week Sunday. but yeah, I I'm basically doing a little bit of a mini racing block. So gonna do Challenge Gdanks, Swansea, and then seventy point three Gdinya, which is the week after Swansea. ⁓ so which is actually Gdania is pretty much Gdanks as well, but it's like the next door town kind of thing. ⁓ so it's like same same place in Poland kind of again. ⁓ Harry: Nice. Okay. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: But yeah, I g I guess in terms of like start list, it's got like a few good athletes on the start list, which I'm sure will will kind of make the race pretty competitive. I think you got ⁓ Simon Davis who came second at ⁓ St Poulton a couple of weeks ago. ⁓ yeah, he had a great race there. So he'll be on the start list, I'm sure it'll be nice he'll be strong and obviously on a in well with a lot of confidence from that race, I'm sure. Harry: Yeah, what a ripper. Mm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You got like Tom Davis is coming, Sam Wordley who I coach is racing, and then ⁓ Robert Wilkoweki, Polish guy. that Serbian guy cause Serbian guy I can never pronounce his name, Ožian Stephenik, whatever his name is. You might know it better than me. but yeah, mate, there's there's a good little there's a good little field and I'm actually quite excited about it because I guess like Harry: Yeah. He's good. Y your guess is as good as mine, mate. I don't know. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: 'Cause I've done an Iron Man recently, or like I feel like I've focused on Iron Man quite a bit recently. I'm kind of excited about just like doing a seventy point three, kinda like letting the legs rip a bit. I felt quite good on that sprint distance I did a few weeks back, so ⁓ hopefully have some of those those watts I had on the bike and just kinda rip the rip the pedals a bit and see see what happens really. Harry: Mm. Mate, that'd be good. That'll be really, really cool. 'Cause it's quite a flat and fast race, isn't it? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mate, yeah, I think it's I wanna say it's like a hundred and forty meters of elevation gain over the ninety K. So it's yeah, it's pretty much as flat as flat can be. Yeah. But Harry: Nice. Yeah. Sweet as. Mate, that'd be that'll be so good. ⁓ yeah, I'd be interested to see how you go. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, no, hopefully ⁓ I guess this is like I feel like my walking at South Africa, this is kinda like my fresh start of the season again. So ⁓ hopefully hopefully start hopefully start this part of the season off on a better better foot. Harry: Yeah, yeah. Mate, I'm sure you will. It'll be it'll be good. It'll be good. This this ⁓ this holiday training camp you've had will set you up perfectly. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Actually it's a secret taper and carb load with the extra calories from the beer and Yeah, mate, I'll be absolut I'll be absolutely pinging and everyone will be right, how'd you doing? I was like, right, what you gotta do? Two estrers every night and couple of hours of training. Get a bit of get a bit of tan on your skin. Harry: Yeah. Sounds perfect, mate. Get on the program. Book a week away and sink some fucking pints. Yeah, nice. ⁓ mate. That'll be good. ⁓ Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ right, mate. Let's ⁓ let's call it there. I think I think I might be flying solo on the Kieran episode, but that's to be determined. ⁓ but yeah, hopefully hopefully you guys enjoy this ⁓ this little episode and ⁓ yeah, hopefully bring you another one next week with ⁓ Mr. Kieran Enders. Cheers, mate, have a good one. Harry: Yeah, I'll let you know about that. Yeah. Look forward to it. Cheers, mate.