Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Uncomfortable Triathlon podcast. You are joined by one of the hosts today because the other one is being lazy, packing his bike and doing a race this weekend in, I believe it's Challenge Gdansk. You are just joined by myself, Harry Palmer. However, I do have a very exciting guest on today. We wanted to get this guy on for a little while now. I, in my opinion, and don't take this the wrong way mate, I think you are pretty under, underrated or underhyped as an athlete. I feel like you deserve a lot more hype than you potentially get, ⁓ because yeah, it's pretty mega. You've got some unbelievable results behind you and I feel like you still got a long way ⁓ in the sport, which is super exciting to see. So we are joined by none other than Kieran Linders. ⁓ So first off, thanks for joining, mate, and how are you doing? Kieran: Yeah, thank f thanks for having me. I'm ⁓ yeah, doing really, really good. We're kind of coming up to that midway point through the sister ⁓ the season, so quite a few races under the belt already and preparing for some of the main A races coming up. So yeah, I'm I'm really happy with Ryah Matt currently and and hopefully I can continue to get the results that I've shown that for sort of form ⁓ in this season. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, perfect, mate. Awesome to hear it. So initially, what I would like to do is talk a little bit about your background in the sport and how you got into the sport. I think it's different for everyone. Some professionals, come through, as you know, like the elite centers and stuff like that. So could you just talk through a little bit about where you've come from? Did you specialize in an individual sport when you were younger and then you decided... I'm going to give Triathlon a go. Were you part of an elite center? How did it come about that you decided to pursue this specific sport? Kieran: It was totally random. ⁓ when I was younger it wasn't really a sport, I would say, 'cause it was kind of pre the the Brownlee, ⁓ building the sport kind of in this country. ⁓ I mean it's pretty normal, I guess, in the sense that my mum didn't have the most confident ⁓ ability in the water. So she always wanted me and my brothers to be strong at swimming. So we started to learn to swim as as anyone would. We ⁓ as I got a Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hahaha. Mm-hmm. Kieran: kind of through that that program of just literally learned to swim. A competitive swim coach kind of saw me and said, Do you want to try competitive swimming? So that's how I got into swimming. ⁓ similar thing with my running. I ran when I was young at school and one of the coach at one of the races, the they saw me and and thought that I had potential to run competitively. So I got in that way. And then I was always kind of messing around on my bike with my dad and my brothers and things. So I was kind of riding on bike that way. And One year my mum just kind of said, ⁓ why don't you try a triathlon race? 'Cause you already kind of already do all three sports and just see how it goes. It'll be some good c cross training for your running. And I did a triathlon and then was very quickly picked up by a regional coach, did some of the stuff with the regional racing, got into the national squad, did some racing in the in Europe for some of the sprint stuff, and then slowly progressed my way up through the long course. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: you Kieran: ranks, but ⁓ it was pr pretty random. There was no there was no ambition to ever become a triathlete, I guess. It was it was purely just just fate that I fell into it. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, awesome. That sounds so good. It's nice. I think from my experience and perspective, I think it's nice to have that sort of gradual approach into the sport, not be forced into it because you love it even more from that. that's really interesting. then, was there a point or when potentially was the point that you realised that you were actually good at the sport and you wanted to take it seriously as a career. I got asked this question on the weekend by Matt Camenard when I was out doing the Swansea Course Recce. I thought it'd an interesting one to ask you as well, like was there a definitive point, was it a race result or was it a coach mentioned something or whatever that you were like I'm going to focus on this as a career, like this is what I want to do. Kieran: I don't think I ever really thought I could do it. I just wanted to see how good I could be at triathlon. I I had a real passion for it. ⁓ it was a it was a passion way before I thought I had any talent in it. And by just trying to be the best that I could be, I kind of worked my way up through the ranks. I represented England when I was sixteen, in the youth relay trial. So that was kind my first experience of racing at a top level and Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mm. Kieran: that kind of gave me a belief that I could race at a top level, but to for it to actually be a career, I mean, you you'll know yourself it there's quite a few things that need to go right for you. It c it can even be just you need a couple of good results back to back, which is very hard to achieve and ⁓ kind of ride a wave and trying to work out how to run the sport, you know, as a business has another part of it. So I think the easiest way to say I never really had any ambition to be a full time athlete. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. Kieran: I just wanted to be the best athlete that I could be. And as you know, that takes up so much time. So ⁓ it it it kind of happens naturally where I kind of left the university, then that I started working part time. And then as I started getting better results, I could slowly offload that part time work because I was getting money in from results. And then it slowly then became a possibility that I could ⁓ do it full time and I didn't really take that jump until COVID hit. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Kieran: And the reason that I took that jump when COVID hit was because I was getting furlough pay for a job that I wasn't doing. So I was training full-time and getting furlough pay. And then that was the first opportunity where I could actually see how good I could be on a full-time training program. And then also kind of have the the money still coming in as if I was working. And that kind of gave me a leapfrog position and where I could see how it could work as a full-time athlete and and kind of gave me a little bit of breathing space. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Sure. Mmm. Kieran: ⁓ not to say that the years after were as easy, but it kind of gave me my first opportunity to actually really give it a go. And ⁓ when you go full time, it's it's not necessarily that you just train loads more, but just having the ability to rest more and and plan your season out a bit better made a made a huge difference. So that was the first time I kind of learned how to be a full time athlete and then it kind of went from there. But it was a very natural progression. It wasn't Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Kieran: for for me I was lucky in the sense that it didn't come down to a particular moment where I lost a job and I thought, ⁓ I'll just give it a go or ⁓ I've you know, I've saved up a load of money and I'm gonna give it a go. It kind of I was COVID was kind of lucky and not lucky in in the way of where I was in my career 'cause it gave me the opportunity to be a full time athlete, but it hindered the ability to race. So it was kind of a an interesting time. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. You almost take it as like a progression year. You you just like, you just focus on the training, you get, absorb all the work and then clearly it's, it works well. I think, I think a lot of people had the same sort of thing going on. Like the, the sport definitely progressed quite a bit after COVID. I think everyone was just like training hard and then got all the gains. ⁓ But what's your, what's your setup like now? So do you train with? Kieran: Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: a specific group or a centre or are you very much like a bit of a lone wolf and you do your own sort of your own things? Kieran: So I I was a part of a setup in Eastbourne that was a full on triathlon setup and ⁓ I kind of came away from that and I'd taken some positives from that but also some negatives and ⁓ I mean you you're you're lucky that you could train with Freddie and and a few of the other athletes and ⁓ but it can actually be well it it can be difficult to find people that first of all can do the training times that you want to do and then also have training partners that Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hmm. ⁓ I don't know about being lucky. Definitely. Kieran: That that can push you. So I when I came back from uni, I I literally just went back to the original setup that I had been at, where I have a run club. So I train with the Vale of Ellesbury, swim club, I trained with Maxwell. And then for my cycling, I have a cycling coach as part of Tri Revolution, which is a coaching business that I'm also involved in. So that that Tri Revolution manages all of the training and the cycling. And then I train individually. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Kieran: with a running group and a swimming group and and the good thing about that is I learn how to be good at the individual components and then it's a puzzle for me to try and put them all together. and it doesn't always work because like sometimes I can do a track session the next day the swim school are doing a kick set. So it doesn't always work, but we've I've got some brilliant coaches that are very flexible to allow things to happen. And some of the guys and girls I'm training with like they push you to a level that Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hmm. Yeah. Kieran: is so superior to triathlon in each individual component that there's nothing that ever really surprises you when you come to a triathlon event. Now, obviously putting all three together is very difficult, but if you're used to swimming with people that are going, you know, almost sub fifty for a hundred meters, you kind of get used to trying to stay with those guys and ⁓ and and it's also nice to kind of chase that as well, not just be a part of a setup where you might just happen to be the best triathlete it at an individual component and you're just used to kind of Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Mmm. Kieran: being the best. I I quite like being under pressure and trying to follow someone in training as opposed to being the the dictator of what's going on. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: think that's an important point is like, wherever, where I've seen my own personal best progression is when I've been someone who's chasing and you're like, you're chasing the better athletes. Cause if you're like, if you're the biggest dog in the squad, it's like, you're almost doing everyone else more of a favor because they're chasing you. And it's like, how do you motivate yourself and keep yourself fired up when you're like the best guy in the area. So. It kind of, I think it makes so much sense, like training with sports specific people because the level, although I think triathlon, like as you well know, like currently people are bloody good at everything across the board, but there's nothing quite like a sports specific, like an actual swimmer is going to run rings around a triathlete, you know, or for most part, like most triathletes. So it's actually good to be able to like hang with them and it gives you maybe just another bit of an advantage when it comes to race day, doesn't it? Kieran: Yeah, and I think the the important thing as well is I learn what's happening with the individual sports as they're happening. And I I sometimes find that it can be a trickle effect into triathlon. Like there'll be a new training system in swimming and that'll get results and then that'll then filter slowly into triathlon. And I I get it almost immediately, which is really cool. And what will be surprising for like if you look at my swimming recently, over the last couple of years it's come along quite a long way from where it was. I was kind of a Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Kieran: Just make I was just making front pack or kind of in front pack, whereas now I I seem to be at more at the front end of the race. And it'll be amazing to compare my training, because I was doing lots of like s you know, 30, 40, 100s off of 120 and just going, going, going. Now minimum rest that I have between reps is like twenty, thirty seconds. And I'll do a lot of training where I'll be doing like last night, for example, I did six fifties on a turnaround of eight minutes. And that was the whole session. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Yeah. Right. Right, okay. Kieran: ⁓ so it's lots of like swim specific training and the reason for a lot of ⁓ the the the pursuit of having more rest is swimming and training your mechanics w at the speed that you'll be racing at, as opposed to, you know, even though your aerobic or your cardiovascular system is working quite hard, ⁓ you're not actually training the mechanics of swimming. So yeah, I've done a lot of different training, a lot of parachute work and bungee work, which is a very Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Kieran: much swimming thing and I barely do any sort of paddle pull or any any work like that, which is quite common for a lot of triathletes. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Interesting. I'd say most, yeah, most triathlete, even, I mean, my swim program, if I look at that, like most swim sessions will have an amount of pool pads, whether it's like the actual main set or like a strength set post main set, whatever. it's, so that's really interesting to hear actually. ⁓ What's the, like, so splitting the three sports apart, you're obviously very competitive at all three. Is there more of a focus on one of the sports than the others, you obviously you've got really good strength in swimming. Do you still see that as something that you really, really focus on or do you just have to like maintain the swim for example? And then is there more of a focus on bike and run? As we've seen like people's run times are just like getting absolutely crazy. So is that something that you're kind of more focusing on? Kieran: So I think with with me, the the main focus I think for most athletes is the bike. I mean, typically that's where I am most at risk of things not going my way. So a lot of my focus is bike centred. So I I kind of plan my root week around what's most I can get out of my riding. The swim is very much kind of in a maintenance stage where it's usually the last session of the day. So if I'm too tired from the riding or the running. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mm. Kieran: ⁓ the swim just becomes what the swim can be. So it is about more maintaining. But I also think that that's purely from a point of there's just you just don't spend a lot of time in the water. ⁓ so there isn't there isn't a huge like I could put a lot of hours into swimming and at most maybe gain like twenty or thirty seconds. Whereas if I did the same amount for cycling, that could be a couple of minutes just because I've got four hours to get away from someone as opposed to 40, you know, six minutes. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kieran: ⁓ and then the running I think has focus, but it's it's more I think it's more of a place of that you have to be careful because that's where you're gonna get hurt most of the time. So the bike takes priority because it's the one that I want to improve in the most. So we plan it kind of around that. The run is also focused because you need to make sure that you're not overdoing it from being too tired from the riding. And the the swim is is usually the one where I I can be quite happy to sacrifice the intent of the session. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Hmm. Kieran: if I think it's getting in the way of the other two. ⁓ but but I've got a really good team around me and and we've kind of got into a rhythm now where I think it works. Like it it took a couple of years to get it right, but now I'm quite happy with where it's at and I think that's why the results are are coming through. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mmm. Definitely, yeah. And it looks like you've got a good recipe where you're obviously swimming at the front of the race, you're good on the bike that you can cover moves, make people hurt a little bit, and then you're one of the best runners out there. it's like, for races like Frankfurt or whatever, it's almost like the perfect place to be where you're not chasing straight out of the swim. so you can save yourself a little bit and then use your run to your full potential. So do you target races that you think will suit your ability or is it more the races that are just in the series and you kind of go willy-nilly sort of thing? Kieran: I think my my season usually based around of what at the end of the season, what if I could do well at any race, what would it be? And that the answer is usually the world championships, the Iron Man World Championships. So then I backtracked to how do I qualify. Now I I reached out to you and Andrew and a few of the other Brits about what it was like doing South Africa versus doing Texas. And we kind of had like a discussion with with multiple people, but it was kind of like Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Sure. Mmm. Kieran: Actually the the rolling resistance quite hard. So actually for someone that might not necessarily want a hard bike ride, it might be better to do Texas, but then you've got potentially more opposition. So it definitely comes into my mind about being effective with what I do. ⁓ but I think it's it's more just setting up for the best possibility. So I I know, for example, like my talents probably make me a better championship racer, where I it I can kind of handle myself in each of the disciplines. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Sure. Mm. Yeah. Kieran: But there are also races where if one of those disciplines is significantly isolated and it's a more of a race between me and one other person, that's typically where the gap will be shown more because rather than someone looking behind and going, ⁓ Kieran's, you know, in a group of twenty, and actually that Kieran doesn't really matter, if it's a one on one and someone just gives a minute dig and there's a gap, then all of a sudden ⁓ they then might be enticed to make a move. So you I think Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Kieran: Everyone looks at races that they think they're going to do well at. and I'm definitely someone that that as I'm getting older and ⁓ having raced a few more events, I kind of you you'll know with this, like that y you only have a few Ironmans in your season. So you can't just like give a race a go. You have to really think about it and if you mess up that race, which we've seen with other people that were just guaranteed they were just hoping that they'd qualify from Texas, they're almost now scrambling to try and qualify. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Kieran: So I think especially for that first race, it's very much picking your strengths. But then come round to a championship event, you you you don't really have the the option. So you've got to make sure that if you have seen any weaknesses from events or if you're not if you're not happy with descending, for example, but you're going to Nice, well guess what? That's your whole focus for the year. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like that's got to be the focus for championship season. yeah, it's going to be exciting to watch it. ⁓ what is, let's move on to stuff that I kind of, I know it's always a bit of a difficult topic of discussion with people, but I'm always very open to chat about things I think is interesting to chat about. So like the mental side. of triathlon. Obviously it's an individual sport. Yes, you can train with other people and whatever we're racing with other people, but ultimately it's you against you and you spend a lot of time in your head. sometimes you have, you know, back to back races that don't necessarily go well. Sometimes you question your ability and whether the sport is for you and there's no safety net, you know, like you get, let's say you have a string of bad results or an injury or whatever, like it's not like you're continuing to get paid from the sport. So it's When things, I find when things are well in triathlon, it's great. When things are not going well, you're like, you question your life choices a little bit. So could you talk us through a little bit about like some of the, some of the lows and how you, how you manage to pick yourself back up and get yourself back in the game? Cause I think that's one of the hardest things that as athletes we have to deal with. And you see it, you see it more often now than ever, a lot of pros just struggling with the mental side of things and I guess there's one size fits all, there's no wrong or right answer, but it would just be interesting to get your thoughts on what is something that you've done that you think has aided you to get back on the horse and produce the results that you're fully capable of. Kieran: The I think the main difficulty with racing and particularly racing as a pro, your whole life is based around how good you are. And usually it's the last race that you do. So you're constantly being evaluated both financially, your future, your your worth. And I I think ultimately it's just because you care so much. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. ⁓ shit, okay, we've lost him. Okay, for anyone listening, we have lost Kieran. I'm hoping that Andy can edit this out. ⁓ But if he can't, then that's not ideal. I'm hoping Kieran can click on this link again and get back with us as soon as possible because phone has just overheated. Shit. ⁓ god, that is not good. Okay, well, what we're going to do people is we are going to stop recording here and potentially we'll upload this one, but we're kind of midway through the podcast, which is not ideal. The other option is we completely sack this off and we get Kiran back on because We were sort of starting to talk about a few more... Hey, here he is! Kieran: Phone's overheated. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mate, that's all good. I'm pretty sure Andy can edit this all out, so that's not a problem at all. ⁓ Kieran: Okay, cool. Right, so so we were talking about ⁓ mental strength. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yes, yeah. Go for it. Kieran: Yeah. Yeah. So I th I what I was saying was that I think athletes a lot of our worth is based on results that we've had. So i in the moment it's it's very difficult to not get caught up with how people perceive you and and how you know, and and all what you can think that you're doing really well and then all of a sudden it changes and I and I I also think people forget the our bodies aren't necessarily supposed to be able to race at a super high level all the time and we we forget that a lot when we're racing against some of the the you know the greats of the sport. They seem to be able to just pick themselves up and go. And I think like I I can give you an example, you know, this year I I raced Texas, had a really good result and I was on cloud nine and everyone was really happy and I go to challenge and I come off the bike with with the front group with yourself and and I get onto the run and I just I just don't have it. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Mmm. Yeah. Kieran: And the first question is like, What ha what happened? And it's like, I'm still recovering from you know, an Iron Man and I and I've given it and even if and even if I even if I was really, really fit, like these people are just brilliant on the day. And like you've had it as well, where you've just won this race against a really high class of field, and the first thing that someone says or something the first thing that you hear is someone going, ⁓ well it wasn't a very strong field. And it's like Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Mmm. It will actually, yes. Kieran: You know, that's the first thing that we hear. So it's it's very difficult to 'cause we're judging ourselves at a high level and then we're getting judged by other people and it's really difficult to know your perception. I I definitely have struggled in the past of imposter syndromey type stuff and being feeling like I I kinda fluked my way in and I shouldn't necessarily be here. And I think that's because it it is such a hard sport. You put a lot of time into getting one result and ultimately that day you just might not wake up. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Kieran: and you and have have the day that you need to and then everything kind of comes crumbling down. But I think the the thing that I always try and remember is I'm in a very privileged position. I get to really pursue something that I love doing. And it is also very temporary. So trying to just remind myself that actually like out of all the things that someone could have to complain about my about their life, like me maybe not getting the results that I think I should deserve or that I should want. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Kieran: it you know, it's not that big of a deal. And and I also try and remind myself as well, like I think in the past I thought I you know, I've done all this work and I deserve a result. And I I've kind of shifted that mentality of I've done all this work for the opportunity to get a result. And I think that's a key key thing as well, is like sometimes you do a lot of training and feel almost like, you know, something was taken away from you. Whereas reality you've done all this work to just have the opportunity to try. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Kieran: And that's what I try and remind myself is that just just you know, being on that start line, even just giving it a good shot is is sometimes way more important than the result and and and to be frank, like a lot of people are just scared to even try. So they might I mean you know, people might say that I'm not very good at this or not very good at that or, you know, I'm an idiot or whatever, but it's like but I've this I've given everything for this and ⁓ and a lot of people are yeah, and and and and a lot of people are too scared to even even say that they're gonna try. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Given it a go, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. No, it's interesting to get your thoughts on that. And is there something, so we all know that an Ironman is just a brutal day anyway, regardless of whether you're at the front of the race or whether you're an age group who's just meeting the cutoff. I mean, if anything for the age group, it's actually tougher to be out there for longer. But is there something, so when you're in, I don't know, you're 30K into the marathon. Your legs are screaming at you. Your heart feels like it's beating out of your chest. All you want to do is pull over on the side of the road, plonk yourself down and maybe have a little cry and have a little drink and just forget the day. What is, is there something, is there a place you go mentally or is there something that you say to yourself or is there, what is the thing that you do to get yourself to that finish line? whether you're fighting for first place or whether you're fighting just to finish the race. Is there something that you say to yourself or that you do actively that is the one thing that allows you to get to the finish line? Kieran: I learn off of Eddie Hall when he was doing his when he was trying to break the deadlift record, he was saying that he tries to imagine situations that would kind of trigger a flight or fight response. And sometimes if I'm really in really in the thick of it and and I'm really, really pushing to try and get to the to the finish, sometimes I think of and it doesn't necessarily need to be a particular person, but I sometimes think of someone in my life that I'm trying to get Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Right. Kieran: two that needs me or, you know, that that needs my help or that they're in danger. I need to get to them. And I think that sometimes helps me kick into a second gear where I'm I I I used to love racing as a domestic and the cycling because I was never really strong enough to be the main guy. And I kind of used to love that feeling of doing something on behalf of someone. And I think like sometimes when you think about those things and ⁓ it kind of triggers something else where it's like rather than just thinking that you're putting yourself into a hole, is that you're really trying to go Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Kieran: after it and sometimes as well, like I I remember in Frankfurt when I got ⁓ came second, it was raining and it was a really horrible day and I just thought about my two run coaches just all winter had been standing in the rain. And it was and it's kind of like I'm doing it for them because as you'll know, the co coaches and they're they're very much invested in in you. And when we do say like it's a team effort, it really is where people give up their life lives and livelihood and their time to get a result and some and Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hmm. Yeah. Mmm. Kieran: when you're racing, it's it's important to kind of think about those things as well as you're racing on behalf of people that have believed in you. So ⁓ that that's that's usually what I think about. I think about other people and ⁓ trying to get a result for them. And that that's kind of a a healthy ⁓ mindset for me to go into as opposed to me kind of just beating myself up or or realizing how much pain I'm in. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mmm. Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. I think it's such a hard thing to do, but once you find that thing that gives you that little spark and that little bit of that, like you said, that extra gear, then I think it's really important to like kind of hold onto that. It may be different for different people, but it's just, always, think it's like an interesting question to pose to people, kind of what that might be. But let's talk a little bit about your race season as a whole. So now we're like midway through the season. ⁓ You've obviously had some good results. You got the British record for Ironman, which is pretty wild. Talk to us about how, I mean, does that feel, is the record something that you're, I don't know, that you hold quite high with regards to achievements, or is that something that you're just like, you know, like, race results are more important? Kieran: I don't think records are necessarily something to to really try and base your career off of because it's very situational. It means you need people pushing the pace on the swim, you need people pushing the pace on the bike, and then you want to hope that you can run. So you're also looking at good conditions. I think the the most important thing for me was that I had got the record a couple of years ago and I hadn't really had a result like that ⁓ for a while. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kieran: And that course was also technically short. So there was kind of a bit of an ongoing joke between me and Bish because he'd got it at Roth a few weeks before and it was a legit course, whereas I'd gone qu ⁓ a few minutes quicker, but the bike was a little bit short, but it wasn't publicised about it. I think it was five K short and I think they'd publicised it like a couple of K. So it was nice to actually get the time on a course that was legit. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Right. Right. Okay. Mmm. Kieran: But I think results the results of the sport mean way more than the the actual time. I it it's obviously cool to say that that I currently have it or and even just as part of my career that at one point I had the fastest time, but it's very situational. You do need people constantly pushing, you can't have any let up. and yeah, I I think like when when you get ⁓ you know, I got the record, but on the day I was ninth. So not only was there way more Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kieran: potential to go faster, but actually like there were people that that went really, really much faster. And actually then the time doesn't look as impressive as it seems on paper. So so realistically I think like the ma the main thing that I really just want to get is good results at the world championship events because then you can say, right, at this time on this day, I was against the best people in the world and I managed to come whatever position. And that that that to me is a lot better than Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kieran: you know, ⁓ the conditions were perfect and you went fast, but actually the race, you know, was was you know, anyone put in that position could have done well. ⁓ but I think it it is nice to kind of sh it to think that you're capable of doing those times, more so because it means therefore you are competitive. ⁓ it it shouldn't be it shouldn't be Yeah, because you also know in order to get a time like that you ha you are a competitive athlete. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. It kind of gives you the validation, doesn't it? Kieran: But again, you're I'm looking at that time thinking that makes me competitive, not I'm competitive and therefore I get a fast time. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. with, so with this season so far, you've obviously done very well in Texas focusing on the series. You've got Frankfurt coming up in a few weeks. You've done very, very well at Frankfurt before. What's the approach this year as opposed to past years at Frankfurt? Anything different or I guess, I mean, it completely depends who shows up on the day, right? It's very situational, but is there... If you go back to a race that you've raced at prior, do you go into it with a completely different mindset? Do you go into it knowing ⁓ from the situation that you had previously, do you adjust your plan? What's your strategy going into Frankfurt? Kieran: So I think the the main thing for me is the strategy of the year and what Frankfurt becomes. So the first year I erased it, I had to qualify. So a lot of my thinking was about trying to qualify. And to be honest, last year was going to be a similar thing. I was hoping to have qualified, ⁓ and I hadn't, and it became a bit of a scratch point battle at the end to try and qualify for worlds. But this year, because I've qualified, it's actually given me quite a lot of freedom and I'm not Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Mm. Kieran: Chasing the Pro Series. Purely ⁓ my my theory of the whole year is that if you you want to go to Kona because that's the race you want do well at, in my opinion, for what I want to try and achieve. So if you've gone if you're going to Kona, the chances are you're going to get good points there because it's there's more points on offer. You've qualified at an Iron Man, so you've obviously done well and got good points there. So you only kind of need another Iron Man and a and a and a Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Kieran: ⁓ a shorter race to kind of be in contention. So my my thinking is if you go you want a good result at worlds and therefore you'll be good at overall in the pro series because in order to get there you'll have points. So that's the way that I've been thinking for the last few years. Now that I've already qualified early, it's kind of still thinking about the worlds, but it is also being strategic about how I can get points at races. But I think the ultimate thing for me, particularly the Iron Man races is Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Sure. Kieran: There's not really a way to you know, you can't just walk through an Iron Man. So when I'm rocking up to an Ironman start line, I'm there with intent to do as well as I can. So I'm gonna ⁓ approach Frankfur with with the same desire that I would any race. ⁓ the only thing this time is it'll be the first Iron Man race that I've done other than Kona a few years ago where there was no real pressure. Because if it goes well, brilliant. If it doesn't go brilliant Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm-hmm. Okay, yeah. Kieran: If it doesn't go well, then I'm I'm still already qualified and and the main main goal of the race hasn't ⁓ of of the year hasn't been compromised. So I'm just ⁓ I'm just looking at it to have some fun and having good results at an event always gives you a bit more confidence. just because you know what it takes to get a result and every race is different. Like if if the swim's all all of a sudden a lot quicker or the swim isn't quick and the bike's really slow and then it becomes a running battle, like you can't really base results. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Yeah. Kieran: on previous, but you also know that actually you can do that course well. And I think more importantly, another minds ⁓ mindset shift goes from I know I'm quite hard to beat on this course. So if I am finding myself where I'm off the front of the race, either someone's having a day that's just unbelievable, or they're potentially risking having a real bad meltdown in the last few kilometers. So I think that's that's quite cool where I'm kind of getting to the stage now where Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Kieran: I'm not the easiest person to beat. So if you are ahead of me, brilliant. You you are likely having a good day. But also there's that part in my mind that's like, but you may also have got it wrong. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, see, that's a really interesting mindset place to have. It comes from confidence, right? It comes from getting good results and accumulating a number of good results where you get to a point where you're like, I am one of the best athletes on the start line or I'm one of the better athletes on the start line. So yeah, if people are ahead of me, fair play. If they're having a fantastic day and they take it all the way to the line, they were just better than me on the day, but I'm going to stick to my race plan. and maybe I'll catch them rather than kind of, it's easy, it's quite easy, isn't it, to throw your toys out the pram and just end up chasing, but you never know if someone's just going way out of their capabilities and then you're both in the same place. Kieran: Yeah, I and I think that's the interesting thing with Iron Man because if you look at the when I'm racing a seventy point three, a lot of the time I feel under pressure and I feel like I'm doing efforts that I can't necessarily sustain. Whereas there's not really ever one moment in an Iron Man where I'm going, I can't do that move, or I can't bridge across or I it becomes more of a can I do that and not pay the price for it. Whereas like seventy point three it usually is I just can't do that, I have a can go with it or I can Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. sure. Yeah. Kieran: can't whereas Iron Man I can always do that effort, but it's have I overcooked it. And and like in in Texas, I went out at a pace that I could do, but it was too much. And I was I then paid for it in the last 10k. So it's it's kind of one of these things where everyone can be special in an Iron Man, but you also have to be humble enough to realise that actually, you know, if you are really high up in the race, actually you you maybe you shouldn't be. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Mmm. Kieran: And s your challenge is about to you know, your challenge is about to come and there's there's been plenty of races where like I remember when I was racing you in Leeds and you and Josh had had quite a big gap on me and there's there's one there's there's one thought where you go, ⁓ those boys are going good and they're they're just I'm never gonna catch them and then the other thought is actually those boys are battling quite hard and if they're not careful, one of them may have some trouble. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Kieran: And and and it's it's kind of you only really see that reveal in the last five K. So it is it I I find Iron Man Racing really interesting because a lot of the time I don't feel great until the very, very end when you start to see how people have actually decided how their day's gonna go. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, massively, Mmm. Yes, absolutely. It starts to spiral towards the end, but really, you've made the decision early on in the day, haven't you? Whether it's early on on the bike or early on on the run, it's funny watching it, but when it's you that's in a bit of a pickle, you're like, ⁓ fuck, why have I done that? Kieran: Yeah. And it is funny as well, 'cause I don't know if you have the same thing, but it's like you'll do something and the bike and you'll come off the bike and you go, ⁓ yeah, that was really good bike ride. And then you might be like an hour in Surround and you go, ⁓ hi, I wish I hadn't of done that. It's almost like the bike didn't matter. Like I just wish I hadn't have even tried that effort, or like there's there's a lot of things that that that are fun of are funny when you look back, but yeah, you have to r you you have to be humble enough to know Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kieran: that potentially you can't do that thing, but also confident enough to think that you can. It's a really hard balancing act. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah, massively, And so talking about the fact that, you know, the sport, like sport as a whole, regardless of what sport you're in, like, like you've alluded to in this chat is like, it is temporary, and we can't do the sport forever. So what does, is there a certain point that you think you know, I want to achieve this or I want to achieve that and then I'll retire or is it I'm going to just keep improving and as long as I continue to see improvements, I'll keep doing this sport until I get to a certain level where I think I've reached my full potential and then I'll retire and then the next question is sort of after retiring from the sport, what do you see your life looking like? I know it's an interesting question. because you're obviously very focused on the sport as is, but it's something that I chat about with the training group a lot as we're, I mean, we're not getting any younger. So I'm like, I always kind of pose the question of what will we actually do after we retire? So just like, it'd be interesting to get your thoughts on that. Kieran: So the f the first question is about when I think I've had enough, let's say, with the sport. I think there's the the I would always try and do it forever. I think now I'm at a stage where, you know, I've I've been very fortunate to have the career that I've had up till now. I think it'll be when it starts, you know, potentially causing harm. So either that's harm to myself because I keep getting injured and I'm just not or I'm not being healthy, or even harm to Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Mmm. Kieran: you know, people around me where if I'm not making any money from the sport and that's because I'm no longer good enough to do so, then I can't just keep going without then taking opportunity away. And I think there's things that I really look forward to. Like I I'm I'm quite looking forward to, you know, having children and things like that. And if if I'm not good I if I'm not a good enough athlete where I can do that job and not see Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. Kieran: ⁓ sorry if I'm good I if if I'm not good enough to do the job and then not see them as like an annoyance where like ⁓ I'm kept up at night because they're crying and that's annoying for me as an athlete and I'm not good enough to deal with that, then that just makes me a bad dad. So then that's impacting their lives. So I think it's when I start hurting myself and other people. ⁓ but I think like the the main thing for I but on the side to that as well. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Mm. Yeah, yeah. Kieran: Like if I if I'm not looking externally, it's just when I just don't love it anymore. I don't think you can get results without loving it. And ⁓ and there'll become a point where I'll just you know what I just don't want to. And that's fine. Like I think ⁓ because if you keep going, I think that's very unhealthy. ⁓ and then in terms of what I do after my career, like I would always love to be involved in the sport. I wouldn't mind, you know, working for some of the event brand ⁓ any some of the event brands I Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Mm. Kieran: I'm currently coaching. So I I've got a real kind of cool vision of kind of having an elite squad under me that I coach. that would be really, really cool. And then probably the last thing as well is I've been fortunate enough to work with quite a few brands now and I could very much see myself working a ro ⁓ within a company with one of the brands and and helping them develop further. So ⁓ that that would be really cool. So I've kind of got I'm kind of looking at a a lot of options, but I think ⁓ Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Mm. Kieran: I try not to look too far past what I'm trying to do. ⁓ but that that's kind of where I'm looking. I j I just want to be involved in the sport in some way. That would be the dream. So like I've I've lived the dream of being the athlete and then it becomes very much a how do I keep the sport moving forward. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, massively, mate. It's actually, it's interesting because it's something, like you said, you don't really want to focus too much on it because you've got something to focus on now. And I think if you think too much about, what am going to do after? Does that then pose the question, well, if you're thinking too much about that, are you really like fully invested in what you're doing now? And it's such a, it's such a tough sport to be, to do well at. You have to be fully, fully invested. And it is a little bit. It is a little bit selfish to a degree, isn't it? Like you do really have to go like full ham in it. But I think because you're not gonna be able to do it forever, then it gives you the opportunity to potentially like give back after you've retired, if that makes any sort of sense. Kieran: Yeah, I I think it's also important to not necessarily overestimate what you can do in a year and underestimate what you could do in a few years, because sometimes it does take a few years to really take on the the training. And ⁓ some people know this, but it's not widely known that Frankfurt in twenty twenty four was gonna be one of my last races. That was I I thought I had got to my level. I thought that was it. I had really bad performances earlier in the year. I was still struggling Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Kieran: health wise because of the ⁓ the finish in Almere the year before. So I'd kind of spent a year of just really not being able to train and not being able to do it. And I I kind of just thought that was my level and I was happy and I was just like, right, Frank for what give me one last hurrah and let's see how it goes. And for whatever reason things are lined up properly, I can I come second and then all of a sudden I'm off to Kona. So it's it it can be very un it can be very unpredictable this sport and how the body's doing. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Kieran: And I think sometimes like it's always really good to know what your backup options are, because then that gives you that freedom that if you do fail or if you do decide that it's enough, it kind of gives you that freedom to go all out because then you know what you have left and you can judge whether or not that's enough. But it's also important not to focus too much on it because if you're if you're if you're putting all your energy into working out what I could do next. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. Kieran: it's it's not a great place to be. Like I think sometimes in the past, like I've been on the start lines and I've thought like, ⁓ you know, this swim's gonna go out really hard. I wish I'd done more speed work for next time. And it's like you you can't keep going to events thinking about what's gonna happen next. You kind of have to do you have to start worrying about like I'm here now, this is what I've got and what what can I do? ⁓ and I and I'm I'm guilty of that. Like I know the amount of times I've been on the bike and I'm slightly getting dropped. It's like ⁓ I wish I did more bike riding or or something. So ⁓ Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Yeah. You gotta be present. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kieran: Trying trying to just know where you're at and ⁓ and try and try and focus on a race at a time and and go from there. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah mate, perfect advice, I love it. And I think we'll probably wrap it up there because I can appreciate you've probably got training to crack on with and I've probably chewed your ear off a little bit too much up until now. So I appreciate you taking the time out of your day, mate. I think it's really interesting to hear insights from yourself and hopefully some interesting things for people to... kind of go away and learn about, especially like the mental side of things, think is, yeah, some really interesting, or I find it interesting, so I hope everyone else finds it interesting. ⁓ But I just want to say from myself and Andy, who unfortunately isn't here, ⁓ best of luck for Frankfurt, mate, best of luck for the rest of the season. ⁓ I look forward to towing the line with you in Swansea as well, and try not swim and bike away from me, because I would appreciate it if you could be kind to me on that one. Kieran: Well, I think it's you trying to bike away from me. I don't think I've ever I don't think I've I've always wanted to hold hands across the finish line but you seem to ⁓ s want to push on. No, no, it's it's it's a pleasure being on here and it's a shame A Andrew didn't make it 'cause he's been he's been calling me out for the last couple of weeks about not making the podcast and and hoping that I could be on it and trying to make sure that my my time schedule and actually he's the hardest person to organise 'cause it seems that all day he's got to do something with the kids, so bless him. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Alright. Hehehehehe Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so. Kieran: No, it's really good to catch up and ⁓ yeah, like I said, I'll s I'll ⁓ I'll I'll look forward to seeing you boys in Swansea. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Appreciate it mate. Have a good one and we will catch up very soon. Thanks so much for listening everyone and we will see you in the next podcast.