Harry: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Uncomfortable Triathlon podcast. Now Andy has thrown this intro at me in the last five seconds. I had no idea I was doing it. So I've not prepared a single thing. So good luck to you guys listening. I feel sorry for you. As always, joined by my better looking host, ⁓ Andy Horsford Turner. How are you doing, mate? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I'll definitely take that mate. I've had a shave and I've had a haircut this week. So yeah, if we go on if we go on an Instagram reel this week, I am looking way better than last week. How are you doing? Harry: It's it sucks because you're already better looking than me and now I look like dog shit compared to you So thanks for that, mate But yeah, I'm I'm I'm doing well mate, how's how's your week been? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I'll take it, I'll take it. Yeah mate, not too bad. It's been a week and a half. I did a really good sort of Monday to Friday morning training week and then flew to Dublin on Friday afternoon and then had a wedding yesterday. It's Sunday now. So yeah, I had a bit of a couple of more chilled days, just a couple of runs to end the week. But yeah, it's been quite... But it's been quite nice because I had a, yeah, I trained really, really well up to that Friday morning. I was really happy with the training I banked and then almost used the wedding as, I guess, a bit of active recovery, I guess. ⁓ But yeah, yeah. There was a few Guinnesses. ⁓ You might have seen on my Instagram story, but they had like a little like printer machine. So my wife printed our two kids on the top of my Guinness pint. So that was pretty cool. Harry: Nice. Yeah. How many beers? That's cool. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: But yeah, it was nice. We went away, just the two of us as well. So two nights without the kids. Can say that's literally the best two nights sleep I've had in the last three years. So yeah, I'll take it. But yeah, a pretty good week on the whole. But yeah, more importantly, I went on Strava this morning. I saw you did a 90 minute run. What's going on? What's going on there? Harry: Hehehehehe You've tapered. You've tapered for the next week. Mmm, yeah. I don't want to brag, but I'm a little bit of a legend. A whole 90 minutes. ⁓ So yeah, that's the longest run I've done in six weeks, which it's not impressive. It's not something that people will listen to and think, wow, that's really cool. But for me, it's actually really exciting because it does signal the fact that Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You Harry: I am getting, I'm seeing improvements in my knee. Things are getting better. It's actually funny. yeah, I'm back in the game. It is funny actually though, because I did call Josh earlier this week who we will intro in a second. ⁓ And I was like, ⁓ yeah, I might do a run session tomorrow. I'm I'm feeling so good. And he was like, yeah, probably not a good idea, mate. And I was like, ⁓ yeah, you're right. But I was just like so excited for it. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You're back. Yeah Have you had zero pain then this week? Harry: So I think I might. It's like a one out of 10. It's not like pain. I would say I'm just aware that there's like, it's like after the run, you're just aware something's there, but it's not, it's nothing to be upset about. So I think next week it'll probably be another week of just chilled running, but a bit more volume. And then maybe the following week I'll try a bit of intensity. Listen to coach Josh. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ nice. Harry: But yeah, I'm really, really chuffed with that. that went well. But enough about me because we've got an exciting guest on this pod. We've chatted to Josh before. He doesn't really need much of an introduction, but Josh Lewis, GB Triathlete, and he was racing since 0.3 Oceanside on the weekend and he wasn't just racing. but he got near the bloody front. I say near the bloody front, he was in second for a long, long time on the bike. We really wanted to chat to Josh about this because it was almost like a world champs quality field early on in the season. He bloody showed he's got the goods. ⁓ Welcome, Josh. How are you feeling off the race? Josh Lewis: Yeah, thanks for having me guys. I was saying to Andy before, I feel okay coming in waves of like my body feeling okay and then realizing that it's actually not. But I think I'm bouncing back from this race far better than I bounced back from my first race of the season in Dallas. I always find the first race of the season is quite tough to bounce back from. And then the body remembers that it actually needs to. sort itself out after a race so that it can carry on training and racing for the rest of the season. So yeah, feeling a bit better this time around. And I don't think I've got as many doms or like body soreness in comparison to last time either, just because I think I feel a little bit better this time around. But really sore ankles from my shoes. My shoes aren't very supportive and I've got little floppy swimmer's ankles. So they're not very good for running, great for swimming. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: So. He screwed it. Harry: We've got tough already! Andrew Horsfall-Turner: So basically me and Harry have a little bit of a lag between my audio and his audio so it's about like a second or two and we decided this week we'd be really prepared and when we wanted to jump in and talk to Josh we'd put our hand up and we'd then start talking and then yeah it hasn't worked we basically just talked shit over each other both put our hands up at the same time Harry: I've just forgotten. And you go, you go. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: No, I was just gonna ask Obviously Josh has done a nice little double there over the in the US We're gonna dive a little bit more into probably both races, but obviously especially ocean side as it was yesterday But you're coming up now to is it three weeks in the US Josh just I would be interested about like How was the travel over? Harry: You Andrew Horsfall-Turner: How has ⁓ the whole trip been in terms of spending an ⁓ elongated period in obviously different places in the US but in a different country? Josh Lewis: Yeah, I mean, it's been different. It's been different from what I'd originally planned because I was meant to be coming out with Harry, but he went and got himself in. So I think there was definitely the difference between expectation versus reality for the starters. Luckily, Will Crudgington joined me in the first week that I was out in Dallas. So that was actually really nice to have company there and probably better company than Harry as well. So we're all good. Harry: Sorry. Definitely better company. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Way better. Josh Lewis: You're forgiven for the first week, but the thing as well left, I think it became a little bit more difficult because obviously, I'm in America, it's a little bit different to the UK, it's far vaster, bigger. I really struggle with understanding where people kind of congregate, like in America, not in America, in Europe, people tend to like... venture towards a town center or it's quite obvious where the town is and you can go and like have a coffee and see people and this, that and the other. Whereas in America, I find it quite difficult to understand where people are like gathering essentially and where people would go to for social interaction in that respect. So it's kind of, it's quite like expansive. Like it's not as... Harry: You Josh Lewis: It doesn't feel like as much of a community here as it does in the UK or in Europe. But then that's also me not understanding where that happens. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah, I guess the thing for me, yeah, no, it's interesting as well. I kind of, we were messaging a little bit before Oceanside and I just think it's so interesting. So obviously you spent a bit of time in just outside of Dallas and then obviously flew over to California. And I know you spent some time in Arizona at the end of back, sorry, the back end of last year, but just how different state to state is as well. Josh Lewis: That makes sense. But no, it's been a joke. Absolutely mental how different everything is. Like that's it as well, isn't it? Like I'm talking about specific areas of specific states, but states are massive in comparison to what we're used to. And I think that, yeah, I'm just inexperienced with American culture in that respect. And I think if I had my time again, I might, especially being on my own, situate myself accommodation wise, far closer to where the action might be happening. Or I guess a good kind of indication of that is where. the Ironman light start and transition zones are. So maybe try and get a little bit closer to that because that's where things do tend to happen. Harry: Yeah, it's, I mean, it's difficult, isn't it, mate? Like you go to a different place and if you've raced there before, it's so easy to know where the right places are, where you eat, where you stay, where, how you travel, everything like that. And in the U S I mean, well, correct me if I'm wrong, but everything's a bit more expensive as well. Like eating is more expensive, I believe, and stuff like that. I know fuel prices over there are a bit cheaper, but like actually the day to day life. everything's a bit more expensive, isn't it? So I guess if you can be with someone else, share the travel a little bit, I still feel very guilty about not being out there with you. ⁓ But, yeah, I'm such a dick. ⁓ But yeah, chatting more about the specifics of the race. Well, with Dallas first, I know that you mixed emotions of that race and obviously, Josh Lewis: not. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You are so high. Harry: It kind of was a bit weird because the swim was not canceled, but it was shortened heavily and so didn't necessarily place your strengths. But how was that bouncing from that race where you had, you know, mixed emotions, you're out there on your own, you know you've got a really tough race to do a few weeks later, like mentally, what do you do to allow yourself to make sure that you give yourself the best chance possible to perform at Oceanside? Josh Lewis: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And just for that as well, I've really enjoyed your previous podcasts with ⁓ talking about the mental side of things, whether that be with Leon or whoever. ⁓ Was it Rosie? Who's on? Yeah, Rosie as well. Those are really good podcasts because I not neglect, but don't put enough weight on the mental side of things, I think, and my day-to-day training or even like in racing, I think that. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yes, yeah. Harry: Rosie was great, yeah. Josh Lewis: I don't necessarily take it for granted, but it's not something that I put a lot of emphasis on, like I said. that definitely opened my eyes to a lot of it. And I think that what I've been experiencing here, I tried to document a little bit on my socials or Instagram because I just had a lot of time on my hands. So I just kind of lent into that. And I think it did come across a little bit of like kind of how I was coping with it with regards to leaning into routine, trying to just like... Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Josh Lewis: not put too much pressure on myself just to get things done and yeah, just make sure that you've got to do what you've got to do to perform in the next race. But then at the same time, I think mentally for me, I kind of compartmentalized them. So whilst I was struggling with the disappointment, slight disappointment from Dallas, I guess, ⁓ that was quite a big motivator for rectifying that in Oceanside. And there was things I took. from Dallas, which were quite confidence inducing. And I wanted to like kind of build on that for Oceanside. So yeah, whilst that was disappointing and it put me in like a bit of a bad mood with regards to the whole trip, it was actually really motivating for the racing side of things. So that was quite nice to separate that. But the mental side of like, I'm out here for two weeks now on my own. I need to kind of just roll through this as best as possible. That was tough and that's when I lent into the routine and trying to kind of let that take care of itself. Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so with also regards to the quality of field at Oceanside, is that something that really excites you? Do you feel like you perform better at those races that are a bit more stacked? What's your mentality like going into that race? Do you have to think, is your approach different because of that? Because that race was so stacked or is it kind of the same as any other 70.3 or race and it just, you just kind of go with the flow essentially. Josh Lewis: Yeah, I think that's, it's race dependent, obviously, ⁓ but, and how the dynamics ⁓ play out, but I- I guess there is an element of approaching them differently because there's certain races where in my head I'm going to perform and get a result. And there's other races that I'm going there to experience, get like exposure therapy in a way to the best in the world. And that's kind of more so this race. Whereas Dallas might've been, I'm going to try and get a result or a top five or as close to a podium as possible. Obviously that was railroaded by the lack of swim. But I think like there is a different approach to those races and how I might execute them based on that. So, for example, Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You Josh Lewis: in a high quality of field race. I want to be as close to the front for as long as possible, experiencing what that takes and so that I can learn from that and utilize that information in the future. This has actually really benefited me in the past in terms of gaining confidence and then also getting race results. And that's happened in the world championships where my whole plan was just to be at the front of the race for as long as possible or make the front of the race if possible. staying there for as long as possible and that then did equate to a very good result which is fantastic. Obviously that's the best of both worlds but it's a case of one race is to do with trying to get a performance and a result and the other one is gaining experience and exposure. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I guess from that then, obviously you've had the two different experiences already to start the year. Excuse me, everyone. How does that now set up, well obviously I'm jumping around a little bit, but how does that now set up you moving forward to the rest of your year? Obviously I know that a big goal for you is trying to get a slot for Kona later in the season. How do you feel like these two races have kind of like played a... kind of a role in that build up and I guess like yeah where do you go from here obviously a very positive experience yesterday. Josh Lewis: It's a funny one, isn't it? Because it was a positive experience in a way. I had a good swimming bike leg and run leg for me. But also I had one of probably my best races in a long time and still came just inside the top 20. So it's like, I know the quality of field was ridiculous. Harry: Hehehehe. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: So hard, yeah. Harry: It's nuts. Josh Lewis: Yeah, when it's in front of you and you're experiencing it and you're like, kind of in the race, but also you're at the back end of being in the race, if that makes sense. So you've got like, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Josh Lewis: probably in the top 15 coming out of T2. And I was amongst it. I was running in and around the best people in the world. And yeah, sure, only for a short period of time, the first couple of K. But then you've got those 15 people in front of you. And you're settling in. And it's like, yeah, these are literally the best people in the world. And... They've just run away from me and there's nothing I can do about it. Even if I was to run another couple of minutes faster, it may have given me one place better. I had a great race, but it's still, yeah, it's still put me at 17. So yes, it gave me a lot of confidence in terms of delivering my potential, I think is the main thing, which is what I've been lacking for the past year. And that... Harry: Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Absolutely crazy. Josh Lewis: is great going forward, obviously, because I'm 100 % someone who builds into the season. I tend to very much feature better and more prominently toward the back end of the season, I always have, whether that be for my short course days or my long course races. And yeah, to be able to put together a performance like that this early in the season, I guess bodes really well for the rest of the season. I mean, it's still obviously, like I said, a little bit demoralising to see myself come 17th in a race where I've done really well. it's, yeah, it is what it is. That's the nature of the sport at the moment. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ yeah, yeah. Harry: He Mate, we were screaming at the TV when you were in second. ⁓ And I'm sure there was part of you when you're on the bike, you're like, I fucking got these guys. ⁓ So let's talk about the specifics of the race though, because I think people will be interested in like, well, everyone's always interested in the numbers, right? So you've obviously got an incredible swim background. You come out fourth, I believe in the swim. So really great swim. You come out with the front guys. You have a good T1. What are, can you talk us through your thoughts when you come out of the swimming fourth, you're surrounded by the best athletes in the world. You've got Schomburg, who's absolutely twatting it through T1. What is, what's going through your head? What's your, what's your thoughts? What's your game plan? And then if you could chat us through a little bit of just overall like bike numbers, stuff like that, the juicy stuff that people want to know. ⁓ How did your fueling strategy go as well? Was there anything on the bike that you had like a, fuck moment? ⁓ Or did everything just go kind of smoothly? I know that's a lot. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: He he. Josh Lewis: Yeah, no, I'll take you through, I guess I'll take you through the swim bike as a whole. I think that would be a good start. yeah, initially when I kind of settled in to the swim, because obviously the start's a little bit manic, isn't it? Like everyone's kind of like jostling for position. But as it happens, I kind of got into my stroke pretty quickly, got some free space and settled in exactly where I wanted to. I couldn't really complain. ⁓ It was literally the smoothest swim I've ever had in a 70.3. It wasn't too difficult. I wasn't getting hassled too much after the first like 100, 200 meters. Like we kind of just settled into the line and yeah, plain sailing really. I couldn't have asked for much better. And it was at that point when I was coming back into transition where I was like, oh my God, I... did what I set out to do, that's sick, like, it's happening, it's happening. So you try and compose yourself as much as possible coming into T2 because I knew that Schomburg was gonna do what he was gonna do in terms of rail it through T1. And it's really tough to know he's gonna do that and kind of know that you can do nothing about it. So like... Harry: You Mmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Josh Lewis: me with little old legs, not a great run back down, even though I found the swim pretty like okay. I was like running hard through T1, just watching him disappear into the distance. in my head, it's just like, ⁓ well that's that then, that's gone. And I had a good T1 to me, I did. Like sometimes I'm a little bit slow through T1, but I had a really good T1. And even then he was still up the road. Harry: Yeah. Josh Lewis: So he would have had to have gotten stuck in his wetsuit or something for quite a while. ⁓ But I kind of like came out, I don't know, fourth, fifth, ⁓ and just, it was a bit of jostling to begin with, just to get into the line. And then I settled into the line or the back end of the line that I was in of about four people. ⁓ And it was fine. I was just sat at the back and we were just getting settled. Harry: Hehehehehe Josh Lewis: I'm panting, I'm struggling at this point. I also had to, because I had railed it through T1 to try and like the running side of things is the bit that I find the most difficult and it was quite a long run. So I was working hard to get through there and that's probably what spiked my heart rate getting onto the bike rather than the kind of surge at the start of the bike to kind of ascertain your position. So yeah, I kind of like gathered myself for a little bit. Harry: Mmm. Josh Lewis: probably the first few kilometers and my power meter wasn't actually working at this point. ⁓ It was connected, but it wasn't like showing up. So I was actually just fannying around on my Garmin trying to reconnect it whilst I was just sat in the line. Got it connected. And then about a few minutes later, I rolled into the red essentially. So I had to overtake the race rangers. So I had to overtake, but unfortunately everyone was spaced quite evenly. and they were all showing the orange. I had to make my way to the group. It wasn't too bad because one, we weren't like gunning it at this point and two, it was only like three or four of us and I was at the back of the group. I moved forward and there was a space just behind, I think it was Stepniak, but... Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ damn. Harry: Send it. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah Josh Lewis: he's like, whoever was behind him had left a bit of a gap. So I was like, well, I'm taking that because I don't want to have to like go to the front if I don't want to or need to. And then settled behind him for a little bit. And then then I started to feel okay. And like I've gathered myself. So he he went over some bumps and completely lost a ton of nutrition. Water went everywhere. he kind of like waved me through. So I took it up. Harry: You Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ man, yeah. Josh Lewis: and just got my head down because Schomburg wasn't like a million miles ahead. Like you could see him just up the road. He must've been about 30 seconds ahead or so. And I thought that the group was working fairly well to like close the gap, but I think it wasn't, it was going out a little bit in the end, but I took it up. I was like, screw it, I'm gonna give it a go to try and bridge a little bit without going completely mental. So. Harry: Mm. Josh Lewis: I went to work on the front and there was this little out and back bit. So you kind of like, you went up to the far end and I, I like, I think I'd started to close a little bit, which in hindsight was probably a little bit silly because he then caught a glimpse and probably got motivated. I don't know, but that's what it's like because then he, it seemed like it was quite difficult to shut the gap. Harry: Mm-hmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Josh Lewis: but essentially I also had a little bit of a gap to the guys behind, which obviously then motivated me. So I put my head down and I reckon I dropped them after that for a little bit. ⁓ I looked, I, I didn't really look back for a while. And then I looked back on one of the corners and literally no one was there. I was like, cool. Well, that's pretty sick because I wasn't like, I wasn't going as hard as I could have done. because I didn't want to go into the red and ruin the rest of my race. Because if you go into the red with the quality of field that was there and your legs go, then you're just going to go backwards so quickly. So I was holding, if you want power numbers, was holding about, I think it was 355 normalized for the first hour. And that got me really close to Schomburg. I think it got me within 16 seconds or so. Harry: Mmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: so close. Josh Lewis: But honestly, I know, I just wasn't willing to push it into like the 360, 370s to shut the gap because there's... Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Here's a question then, in hindsight, if you were in the same situation again in the exact same position, would you have done that two minute surge or would you have just like gone, right, this isn't worth it, I'm gonna take it easy and sit back with everyone else, sort of thing? Harry: Yeah. Josh Lewis: I do exactly the same thing as what I did, to be quite honest. I think to get across, would have been, I reckon I would have been at 370 for a good 10, 15 minutes. And the cost of that would have been very high. And I might not have been able to replenish the cost of that. So like I get the carbs on board and... ⁓ Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Okay. Harry: Fair enough. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah. Josh Lewis: Um, because he was still riding really quick, right? So whilst I was closing the gap, like so slowly and I was close, but I was closing it. He was obviously riding pretty much identical to me. So had I closed the gap and managed to get behind him, I still would have been working really hard. So it's one of those, uh, now that it's 20 meters or like, because you, don't sit at 20, you sit at like 25, because it's like 25 meters instead of. Harry: Mmm. Josh Lewis: 12 to 15, you're not able to recover as well, when you're behind someone. So it's not like I bridge across and then recover. It's I bridge across and carry on working hard. So I think that is, I think I made the right decision to do what I did. ⁓ I think it was when Sam Long came past me. ⁓ I think that's when I should have tried to go with him because he passed me and it wasn't too bad to sit behind him. But when we hit the hill or the first major hill, he pushed up the hill really hard and I was working hard, but I wasn't like, you know, that moment where you're like about to go to war, but there's like something bugging you and it's like putting you off. Harry: Mmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Josh Lewis: And then that split decision between, I'm about to go to war and I need to put myself in the bin here to make this happen. Or I could just not. Basically, my visor completely messed it up. I couldn't see anything going up this hill. So I was finding around with that, trying to clear it, trying to see what was happening, trying to like manage the gap to Tham, because you don't want to go into the red because I was not going to be able to overtake him. Harry: Hahaha Josh Lewis: going up this hill, like, was going hard and to try and overtake him, it just wouldn't have happened. It just wouldn't have happened. So I was trying to manage that gap, but couldn't see. And then the gap went out a little bit too much. So when we like crested, like he was gone. So the one thing that I would have done differently potentially is either flipped my visor up in hindsight, I could have done, ⁓ and gone to war to stay with Sam. Harry: Mmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Okay. Josh Lewis: rather than slink back into the group. Because otherwise, I saw them coming, the options were go with Sam or settle into the group. And I did not chicken out, but like, I was put off and I wasn't in the right mindset to go with Sam, basically. And maybe I couldn't have done. Maybe I couldn't have Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I guess with the Sam thing as well, think you probably, well you may have seen the video on Instagram afterwards about Sam yelling at the motor car who was obviously filming you guys, ⁓ motorbike, sorry. ⁓ And I'm interested to hear where you think that roughly was because I think Sam obviously was trying really hard to get away and obviously the motorbikes are trying to do a really good job of filming the race. Harry: Mmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You don't want the motorbike to sit in front of Sam because obviously then Sam just gets a free ride away from everyone. But he obviously was getting quite vocal that he wanted the motorbike to kind of piss off so that he could kind of surge away. So yeah, what's your thoughts on that? Josh Lewis: Yeah, I mean, it is part of the race at the end of the day. And I am a big believer that we need those motorbikes to be filming. I think that the bigger the roads, the better, because they can sit further away and be less intrusive towards the race, 100%. In the narrower sections of the race, I think that it's still really important that they get coverage because at the end of the day... for us to make a living as professionals, we need to be seen on camera, we need to be seen as much as possible and we need to have good televised events or well televised events. So they do need to be there. I do 100 % think that they do interfere with things like that. I had a moto next to me for a very short period of time and even that short period of time when they weren't even like in front of me, they were just ever so slightly to the side. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, for sure. Josh Lewis: It did give me a little bit extra. I'm not going to lie about it. Like you could feel it, like giving you a little bit of protection from something. And they weren't even that close to me. So if you have someone or a motorbike ever so slightly, you're like to your side and back a hundred percent, it's going to be fielding the person behind. So I can see why he got frustrated. It was, I reckon it was like just before he broke away from them. ⁓ that, that was happening. Harry: Mmm. Josh Lewis: ⁓ and just before he caught me. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Okay. Harry: Yeah, I mean, it's tough, isn't it? Because like you said, it's a lose-lose situation because you need the cameras there for publicity. Everyone wants to watch the live feed. So if the live feed shit, Ironman get complaints, whatever. But Sam or any other athlete doesn't want to be putting in loads of effort and have guys behind just sit behind a Mercato. So it's like, there's no easy way of doing it unless they can figure out a way to deal with drones and whatever. But that's probably a bit of a ball ache for them. ⁓ So with the course, what was the course actually like? Because I'm going to be honest, watching the live feed, I thought it looked a bit shit. I'm going to be honest, like, look, going down some little alleyways and hopping around, was like, this look, I mean, I've heard about California. It sounds real nice. That looks shit. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hahaha Hahaha Josh Lewis: It was okay when I was on my own because I could just concentrate on my own thing and it was fine and no one else was around so there was no distractions or anything like that. it was almost an hour that I was on my own for. That was actually quite nice. I don't think the course was, the road surfaces were not good. I'm not gonna be around the bush. They weren't good. Harry: Mm-hmm. Josh Lewis: The actual ⁓ elevation and the rolling nature of the road and the hills and stuff were good. That was really decent. I think that should the road surfaces be a little bit better, it would have been a world-class course. ⁓ It was pretty honest. It was tough in sections. And it was quite interesting. There was one little bike path that we had to go onto to, ⁓ like we had to nip through a gate. But it was barely anything. It was like a couple hundred meters and then you're out on the open roads again. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Nice. Yeah, no, I was... Josh Lewis: But yeah, no, I think it was, it Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I'm talking over Josh now. I think for some reason I have this delay. And I don't know if it's because I'm hosting this recording. So next week Harry, you're hosting, okay? ⁓ Harry: I'm sorry. Fuck, no, I need to maintain the fact I do fuck all for this podcast. Okay, so I am gonna continue talking about the race, ⁓ but we're gonna talk about the run. So you've had a good swim, you've had a good bike, you've been in second, you've had some real good TV publicity, that's really awesome. ⁓ You've then sat in the group, your mindset probably shifts towards, okay, I need to make sure I'm well-fuelled, I need to get ready for the run, and I need to go to war against these guys. When you get off the bike, what is your, like, as someone who is not to be savage, but like, as a little bit of a weaker runner compared to some of the guys, ⁓ what was your mindset? Like, do you go out with... guys around you? Do you settle immediately into your own pace? What's the strategy there? Josh Lewis: Yeah, I think because the back end of the bike wasn't hard, like as soon as kind of we got over the hills, like it was all downhill and pretty chilled. So whereas I was at like, yeah, like I said earlier, 355 normalized for the first hour. By the end, it was a lot, lot lower. So you've lost 20 watts at least in the back end of the race, whether that's because it was downhill or sat in the group. It sat in the group, it's at like, what, 25 meters? Because you don't want to... It's just sat in the... The worst thing about that, I know you've asked about the... But the worst thing about the 20 meter thing is that you want to leave 25. You don't want to be even in the orange, to be quite honest, because if you float... Harry: Hmm. Yeah, it's not much of a group. Josh Lewis: orange, then there's high likelihood that you're going to float into the red at some point because of just the kind of like the surgy dynamic nature of a rolling course is so easy to float in when there's like a group of a few of you. So I was trying to like stay completely out of the colors so that I didn't have to float into the orange with the risk of going, having to overtake. But the issue with that is that people then slip into Harry: People then slot in. Josh Lewis: Yeah. And then you have to drop 20 meters because they've slotted, not slotted in, it's like legal slotting in. And then you have to like shimmy your way backwards. it's like, ah, such a pain in the ass because that's completely within their right. But you're just trying to ride as smooth as possible without the risk of going in and having to overtake. But anyway, the back end of the ride was relatively easy. So I was feeling pretty good. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: Hmm. Mmm. Josh Lewis: Um, coming onto the run, I'd like smash down, I think it was 300 grams of carbs by the end of the ride. I was fully fueled. I wasn't like fatigued, um, coming off the bike at all. Um, and my race plan was just to try and like, yeah, stick at a certain pace. Um, trying to basically do a run PB, which would have been like the 74 sort of category. Um, and I, I didn't go with, with everyone coming out of the gates. Like that's not in. ⁓ in my plan in terms of a good idea at all, once you kind of do that on the bike, because you can recover in certain sections when it's downhill or rolling. Whereas on the run, you're not recovering unless you're slowing down. So my plan on the run is always to run as even a split as possible. Maybe you can slightly front load it, but not much. ⁓ so I just settled into my pace. Harry: Hmm. Josh Lewis: and tried to hold it as best as possible. But this is where Dallas then came into play because I was really disappointed with my run in Dallas and thought that there was a lot more in the tank. And I didn't want to let myself down in that respect. again, this is where I get better throughout a season with regards to having more and more confidence because I think I've had so many experiences in the past where I've not blown up, but cramped pretty badly on the run. I tend to try and, well, tend to... Harry: Mmm. Josh Lewis: air on the side of caution and probably not push myself as hard as I could or should. And therefore it's kind of like stacking those races back to back where the confidence increases with the effort that you're putting out. Harry: Nice. And so with the run, what was... The course looks pretty quick, but it looks like it has some pretty savage inclines for a short period of time. What was that like? mean, how brutal was that? Would you reckon it was like a PB course or was that like, you know, was that a bit of a surprise? Like, how did the run plan out overall and did you fade? massively or was it like do you look back at that run and think yeah that was that was a success Josh Lewis: Yeah, I look back at it and think of it as a success for me. I think I held myself together very well. On my watch, at least, I even split it pretty much, like within like a second or so. I looked at it after, looked at my watch after the first lap and it was almost identical to what I ended it on in terms of pace. So that was good. I do think that there's still like more in there psychologically. I probably have. Hopefully I have a minute in there psychologically and I need a minute of fitness ⁓ improvement to be, be more competitive. But if I can find that minute of psychological improvement, then that would be amazing because obviously that's not ⁓ a season's worth of fitness that you have to try and attain. ⁓ But I think, I think it's in terms of, it a PB course? No, I think. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: you Josh Lewis: Based on my watch reading, which may have read ever so slightly long, but based on my watch reading in comparison to the course, like GPX file that they sent out as well, it was a long course for starters. So their GPX files at 21.5, I got 21.7, but that might've just been me running the long way round of them. Harry: Mm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Big, big corners. Josh Lewis: But yeah, I did definitely take some corners wide because like you say, some of those hills were steep and coming down them, ⁓ like I mentioned earlier in the podcast, I didn't have the most stable trainers. So I was flying down these hills and take a tight corner at the bottom. I probably would have just rolled my ankle to be quite honest. So I took them quite wide. Went up to the other side of the road. Harry: Yeah. Josh Lewis: It definitely did slow you down, but I'd say in general, it was a pretty quick course for that sort of, ⁓ that sort of distance. I'd say that you could generally keep your momentum quite high and get into your rhythm quite nicely. And it was rolling enough for the rest of it. So there was definitely like sections where it was like up and down for sure. ⁓ Outside of just the steep sections, which completely scrubbed your speed. but I quite like rolling courses. So if you remember in Leeds, Harry, like that was like rolling. I wouldn't say anything was like completely scrubbing your speed. It was quite nice and rolling so you could like work different muscles throughout the run rather than just coming to a standstill. some of the, like most of the course was like that in Oceanside. Harry: Mm. Yeah. Josh Lewis: Some of the hills were similar to what we experienced in Fishguard, which was a vertical climb, 100 metres or so. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Savage, yeah. Harry: ⁓ So, with the psychological side of things, I know we've chatted about this quite a bit, but I'm really intrigued by it. I think other people will be intrigued by it. You've mentioned you need to... You could probably save a minute or something with ⁓ a bit more of a... Maybe a different mindset, is it, or something? Because ⁓ there is something to be said for not thinking too much. Don't think, just do. kind of thing. Like if you can just be a bit like, mon-y, then you can just like, you can find like a little bit of an extra, that's definitely not the term I should use, but yeah, you can find like a bit extra. Like what do you think is going to be your approach with that? I mean, it's probably really tough to say, because it's literally, it was yesterday, so you probably not analysed it and thought much about it. So you probably don't have an answer for me. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: An extra get. Harry: But if you have any thoughts on that, like what is it that you think you need to tap into or ⁓ what could you maybe change? Like, is it just you need to get like, I know some people need to be like aggressive or some people need to embrace like or think about certain things or, you know, I asked Rosie, Rosie Wild on the podcast, like. when your backs against the wall, when you're really suffering, when you're in the last like 5k and your body is screaming at you, like what do you say to yourself or what do you think or what do do that gets you through that in the best way possible and I mean yeah what's your kind of thought on that? Josh Lewis: I am a big believer of stacking experiences on top of one another. Harry: Hmm. Josh Lewis: like in simple terms, just put yourself in those positions more often and gain the confidence through exposure. ⁓ So what that could look like in the season or pre-season could be more racing ⁓ in just running races, for example, ⁓ or just more triathlons. Like I've said, with regards to my previous season, I tend to stack races quite nicely. gain confidence throughout the season. I get the most out of myself in the end of the season because of the exposure to the races that I've had throughout that year. And I think the 2023-24 seasons were very much a product of that. I saw so clearly the evidence of what I took from each race and then applied in future races. One back-to-back race, I'll bring up... World Champs again, because it was one of my best races. But one of the things that I took from the race just prior to that was a race against Sam Laidlaw in Challenge London. And I wished that I'd gone with him on the bike. I thought that I was capable of sticking with him in the draft zone, or you know what I mean, like legal draft zone. I was kicking myself and not giving it a go. Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Josh Lewis: And I was like, I thought that I was capable. I should have just done it this, that, and the other. So when it then came to the next race, which was Larty, I was like, well, I'm just going to do everything that I can to make it to the front. think I'm capable. And therefore I'm going give it a go because I don't want to live with the regret of that again. So. Harry: Mm. Josh Lewis: Basically that is what led me to making the front group in that race is that from the previous experience, I was like, I don't want to regret not giving it a go because I think I am capable. So again, if we look at a more recent example, Dallas versus this is like, I regretted Dallas because I didn't feel as though I gave it a good crack on the run amongst other things. I thought was I was stuck in second gear. I don't want to be stuck in second gear again this time around. So I'm just going to put it into third. it's personality dependent, isn't it? Because I'm very much a realist in a lot of ways. And I'm not necessarily an optimist. I leaned towards optimism rather than pessimism. But I'm very much in the middle. And I'm not Harry: Mm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Josh Lewis: I don't believe I can trick myself into certain things. I more of a put myself in that situation and like based on experience build on that. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, knowing you for a good few years now, Josh, I'd probably say that that sounds right. Obviously, you're very realistic in your approach to everything. ⁓ I think that is a super strength, like obviously understanding what you're capable of, ⁓ but also having that, like, as you said, that slight optimism of like, you know, I guess it's discovery sometimes of like, if you don't try, you don't know sort of thing. ⁓ I think what's interesting for me there, yeah. Harry: around and find out. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: What's interesting for me there is just that aspect of like knowing that you had more on the run from Dallas and going into Oceanside. And I think for me, when I kind of reflect on some races I've done in the past, it's kind of like sometimes having to try and remind yourself that, you know, of like a training session or like, you know, if you're doing like, don't know, sub-threshold work or something like that and just like, well, I know I can run these paces. I know I can do... that and a bit like Harry said about trying to detach the kind of thought process of it behind, which is actually you need to kind of shut up the mind and just say to yourself like, right, I need to run 325 to 330 per K. I know how to run that. I do it in training every day. I need to forget I just did a bike or whatever and I just need to run. And it's easier said than done. But I think just almost like silencing the brain a little bit because we are, you know, I'd like to say the three of us are pretty analytical kind of guys. We think a lot about what we're doing. Harry: Mm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I think sometimes that can be a danger in racing situations. Josh Lewis: Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think for me, I'm looking, I am analyzing and read, over analyzing sometimes, like previous things. So in respect to this time round, I looked at Dallas and I looked at the data from Dallas, like heart rate, speed, carb consumption, all of that sort of stuff versus... Like obviously in the context of the bike ride as well. like, did I over bike? Did I under bike? How did I bike in comparison to how I ran? And then comparing that to some of my better races where I've, I've ridden hard and also ran well. So like, obviously let's, let's talk about a peak performance, let's say. and compare that bike ride and that run to what I did in Dallas because Dallas wasn't even a, there wasn't even a swim. So you can't even say, I over swam because there was, there wasn't any overswim. So let's take the bike and the run. Harry: Mmm. Josh Lewis: And I just compare heart rate to power to speed on the two disciplines. And if I'm like five beats low on the bike and the run in Dallas in comparison to what I've been in some peak performances, you're like, well, there's either a heart rate like shift in terms of something's gone awry, which very rarely happens for me. It's very, very consistent on a day to day, year to year basis. Or you've just got five beats left in the tank, which you didn't use. And I took that from Dallas and applied that to Oceanside. I was like, well, I've got at least five beats extra that I can use here. So let's use it. And it was literally five beats extra. Again, I probably have more than five beats. Five beats was roughly what I was aiming for. did that and executed a run that was almost two minutes faster than Dallas for the same sort of distance. And that's just from looking at the data, being realistic, being like, this is exactly how I ran that with that input and that output. And I know that there's more in the tank, so let's go and do that. Harry: Yeah, sweet. Mate, it's really cool to hear like your analysis of the race. And I think Andy was probably the same as me, just glued to the TV watching it. yeah, mega, mega impressed to see you at the front. was awesome, man. ⁓ yeah, Andy was just sinking pints. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I a wedding mate. I wasn't on the TV at all. I did do a little bit of catching up though. Harry: You should feel ashamed of yourself. So I know Andy's asked this question already, kind of going forward from here, it's still early season. So still early in the year, plenty of races left. You've had a taste of two really good races. You've had a taste of a race that's pretty much a World Champs quality field. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You Harry: unbelievable. Does that change anything in your thought process for the rest of the year? Your approach, different races you got planned in, or are you like, no, I'm sticking to my plan. Are you going to have like a little bit of time off now? Or are you just knowing you just straight back into 35 hour training weeks? Josh Lewis: Rob's got me on the straight and narrow with regards to low quality. So no, I probably won't go straight back into like hardcore training. I've got a couple of weeks now where it's my birthday, it's Emily's birthday. So we're going to like have a bit of downtime because we've spent a lot of time away from each other with like camps and she did a stint. Yeah, something like that. Harry: 50th, isn't it? Josh Lewis: We don't all go for people slightly older than us. Harry: Nothing wrong with a cougar. Josh Lewis: But no, we need some time spent together. And she went to the Olympics in Milan. So we've been away from each other for quite a lot of this year already. So to just stay put for a little bit would be nice. That being said, this... has definitely reaffirmed that I want to race more than less. So even if it's kind of a race that I train through, but still go to and complete that and maybe just fly in and fly out very quickly, I think that would benefit me far more than a long stint of training and just building up that fitness for the next race. So that's definitely something I'll look into, like doing an extra race before my next one. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Josh Lewis: Whether or not I stick to the plan and do an Iron Man next in Frankfurt or not is nothing to do with this race, but Harry's planted seeds more than anything. He just wants me to come. I can't say it, is it Hyukyung or something? Harry: Yeah Andrew Horsfall-Turner: What seeds have you planted? That's it. Harry: You ⁓ Well, yeah, I mean, I can't say either. I get told off all the time for my pronunciation of it. But, Jönköping, you the European champs that isn't in the pro series. Josh Lewis: Yeah, so that's the other option. don't go to Frankfurt. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Ha Josh Lewis: I think I'm motivated by Frankfurt, but I'll have to assess it after this, ⁓ just because I've got to run myself as a business and I've just got to make a good, sensible business decision because I'm not 100 % sure this one was yet. We'll see. I think it was, but it has also been a lot of sunk cost as well. So yeah, I think I want to race more, but for... for the benefit of my performance based on these races, like that's reaffirmed that. What I do next with regards to 70.3 or Ironman, I'm not sure. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Nice. Harry: ⁓ Yeah, go on Andy. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I was literally just about to point to you. No, I was just gonna kind of piggyback on what you said there, Josh. I think there might not be a short-term sort of financial gain to your trip to the US, but I think, as you said, if you've taken away some positives in terms of races, experiences, learning how to find those extra five beats. Harry: It was happening again. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I also am a firm believer that the US market is crazy in terms of triathlon and ⁓ you going out there and trying to charge down after Schomburg has definitely probably caught a few people's eyes. ⁓ So yeah, I definitely don't think it was a wasted trip, even though Harry did shaft you. Harry: Mm-hmm. Josh Lewis: don't think it would feel any worse than what he already does. It would go and hurt himself or something. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hahaha Harry: You ⁓ god. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Right. Shall we end it there? We're almost at an hour. I obviously just want to take the opportunity to thank Josh. He's still out in the US, flying back tomorrow, I think, for jumping on day after Oceanside to have a chat with me and Harry. And yeah, this episode will go out straight away. So Monday morning, wherever you are, you can listen to this episode. yeah, I thought obviously me and Harry need to get a bit more structure as normal. ⁓ But I've super enjoyed having Josh on for, think Josh you're our first two-time guest so that's something to potentially be proud of, I don't know. Harry: You Josh Lewis: Thank you, fam. Harry: That's definitely not something to be proud of. Yeah, exactly. I feel sorry for you, Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hahaha Josh Lewis: You're the one willing. Harry: Man, I will continue to do shaggle for this podcast. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mate, you're in charge next week. You're taking the reins. Josh Lewis: It's been good. Harry: ⁓ okay, I'll try and find a guest. We'll figure something out. I lost Fred again. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You You Josh Lewis: I was just going say, if need me for a third time, I'll come and do rubbish. Harry: Yeah, nice. Okay, we might do that then. Make yourself available next weekend. Josh Lewis: Harry's the least resistant of Harry. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Right. Every Sunday night we have nothing better to do. Harry: Yeah, Alright, cool. With that being said, congrats on the both races, ⁓ Sorry I fucked it up. proud of you, Smashing it. And ⁓ cheers for jumping on. ⁓ And we will see you guys in the next one. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, massive congrats. See you next week, guys.