Harry: Welcome back to the uncomfortable triathlon podcast with myself, Harry Palmer, and my better looking co-host, Andy Horseful Turner. Now, Andy, how are we doing this week? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mate, you're far, far too kind because as anyone who's gonna see some of this ⁓ recording on Instagram possibly, Harry's just got a fresh mullet cut in and ⁓ I am rocking the... Yeah. And I am actually currently rocking an overgrown beard and ⁓ yeah, hair that probably needs a bit of attention. But yeah, good... It is, yeah. No, no, I agree. Harry: Shall I have a little twirl? It's the busy dad look, I would say. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: My wife literally said to me two minutes before we started recording, Harry, that I need to book a haircut. yeah, I think now looking how fresh you look, I I ⁓ better get that sorted. Harry: Yeah. ⁓ Mate, I think the dad mullet would look good. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Uh, I'm not sure, mate. I'm not sure. I'm not sure how, when you pick a, when you pick your child up from nursery, if a mullet just looks like you're like hanging onto your youth a little bit too much. don't know. But yeah, um, mate, all is, all is good. Um, we were just having a bit of a catch up and I, I kind of was thinking earlier, cause, um, you know, when we try and organize this podcast between Harry and I, end up. Harry: Come on! Yeah, that's a good point. makes you look like you live on a canal boat. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: exchanging a few voice notes, thinking about what we're chat about, what we're gonna talk about, and then before you know it, we've combined sent probably best part of an hour's worth of audio messages to each other. So I was gonna say like next time we'll just do that, I'll mash them together and then we can just fucking skip this recording. Harry: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, we almost don't need this podcast. We can just upload our WhatsApp messages. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Although some of it probably we should censor a little bit. Harry: Yeah, that's a good point actually to monitor that. So, okay, this week is actually important for both of us because we both got a race week. Mine is only challenge champs. So not a very big race. And yours is the Swansea sprint distance championships. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: No Yeah. and mine's pretty fucking big. It is, if anyone looks at the calendar when they like getting ready for their season, it's the one that everyone circles to start with. is the, it's probably on a similar tier to like world championships, maybe just below, but. Harry: 100%. I am surprised you managed to get an entry, to be honest mate, because I heard that's bloody competitive to get in. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Oh, no, so it's actually really, it's a really fun event. Actually, it's here in, it's here in obviously here in Swansea. But it's, it's actually the first proper triathlon I did back in like 2018. You know, gave it a proper, I did a bit of training for it and actually gave it a go. Didn't go very fast. But it's run by a company called Activity Wales, which they ran Challenge Wales for a few years. And they also run a branch company called Long Course Weekend. So it's a pretty good company to run it. it's, yeah, I think as far as sprint distances go, it's pretty cool. They shut down Swansea Seafront. You ride out and back on some of the course that we do at 70.3 Swansea. And yeah, mate, I thought I've got a bit of a gap now till my next race. I saw it pop up and I went, oh, you know what? I'm going to send it for an hour. Harry: Just gonna do it. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, just for a bit of fun. And then I was, I basically decided to do it. And then the next day I realised Liam Lloyd's doing it as well. So I've got a race. Yeah. Harry: No way! I mean, I'm not surprised because he lives in the area, doesn't he? like, he's going to be tough competition, man. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. He's a bit lethal over the... obviously he comes from a short course background. ⁓ He did tell me that he potentially has to carry... I probably shouldn't disclose too much, but potentially has to do something ⁓ as a bit of PR. So I'm not sure how seriously he's actually going to race it. But... But, yeah, you never know. Once the gun goes and you've got a swim hat on... Harry: Yeah. ⁓ Okay. I mean, once the gun goes, I feel like, yeah, I feel like if you're an athlete, you kind of, you're just hungry for it. So yeah, that could be interesting. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, and to be honest, it should be good fun. I did it in 2018 as my first one. I then came back a year later, proper new TT bike, aero helmet, had kind of worked out the sport a little bit in the 12 months, and I ended up finishing fourth. So yeah, it would be fun just to go and... I hope I win it, or least I'm second, but... Harry: Nice. Is Will Monday racing? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: We'll see. No, no, no, So, all good. All good. But yeah, mate, that is... Harry: Okay, okay. Wait, that should be really good fun. I'm sure you'll actually, you'll probably finish the race and think, fuck sprint distance. It's just like on the rivet for an hour, isn't it? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I'm yeah, and I'm not sure in a weird way though. It's quite fun. Just like pushing and not having to think about pacing ⁓ because I've done like a few like time trials and obviously like running events as well and I find that especially when the race is only like, you know, 60 minutes, you know 90 minutes maybe ⁓ You can just kind of redline and just hope for the best Whereas like you do that in a 70.3 and you are literally gonna screw yourself Harry: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. What's the worst that can happen? This is true. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. But yeah mate, I'm... yeah, should be a bit of fun. I will report back in really detailed race review next week. But yeah mate, should probably just touch on your little race this weekend as well, shouldn't we? Harry: I'm looking forward to it. Just a small one, just a small one. ⁓ I'm actually just getting up the the tri-polum start list. So it's, yeah, I mean, Challenge Champs for anyone who doesn't know is in Samorin in Slovakia and it's at this hotel called the Ex Bionic, which have you actually, have you done it before, mate, or not? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ yeah, the start list. ⁓ I've never been but it's always been one of those ones that I've always watched and has looked super cool to do. Harry: Yeah, because it was originally that they raced the col- it's Collins Cup, wasn't it, that they raced there. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I think it's race. yeah 30 000 or maybe 20 000 but i remember it being a big win um i think they've reduced that a little bit over the over the last few years but um it's still a big it's still got you know a good field and it's still a big race Harry: Hmm Yeah. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. It's still decent. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And ⁓ it's PTO gold tier. There is good prize money, but as you get with challenge races, you notice the drop-off's quite large. So the win, let's say for example, is 15,000. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Harry: but then second it drops straight to 9,000. So you've lost 6,000 between first and second, which is massive. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Okay, yeah And then once you get to like sixth place, it literally just like drops away really quickly at the end. Harry: Yeah, it's like kind of three or two or something. it definitely is a big drop off. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, make good, if you're top four, top four is really good, then I guess it just does start to drop away. ⁓ Harry: Yeah, that's it. pays to 10th but 10th is only a grand so you're maybe covering your costs there. yeah, yeah. So a top four would be lovely. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Cover some costs, yeah, yeah. Mate, talk to me, this start list... This start list is insane, talk to me about it. Harry: Yeah, it's so the more I look at it the more I'm like I notice more names. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you can't just I feel like this now with any start list you can't just look at the top few names and think ⁓ yeah those are the favorites because there's potentially athletes that haven't got as good a ranking but are still Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Like, like, he's good, yeah, he's good. Harry: unbelievably good or just haven't raced for a while because of injury or illness or whatever like you know you look at the back end of this start list and he's he's not racing but you look the second last name is Pierre Lacour who obviously is an incredible triathlete so yeah Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. He like snuck on the... Yeah, snuck on the start list at the end. Harry: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it'd be easy to miss his name if you're just looking at the top guys. yeah, I mean, you've got the likes of Will Draper, who obviously I raced in Salou the other weekend and he took the win and he's obviously in incredible form. Henry Rappo, who I believe came second last year at the championships or maybe it was third. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, I think him and Kieran, here and Kieran were like really close, weren't they? Harry: Yeah, very close. then Hoganhow took the win last year, he's not on the start list, but you got Peter Hemerich who can be hot or cold. He can be unbelievably good. So he'll be interesting. Kieran Linders, obviously phenomenal athlete. And I think this race really suits him with being ⁓ an incredible swimmer and then kind of ability to surf the wheels on the bike. And then he's a very, very good runner as well. So. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Harry: It's definitely a kind of race that's good for him. got the powerhouse, Freddy Funk, who he rode past me last year like I was stood still. was unbelievable. So he's, yeah, he's phenomenal. Leonard Arnold butchered that name, but he's just very good. Yeah. Daniel Bakkegaard, who will be interesting. I feel like he could, yeah, could be very good. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah, super, super strong on the bike and run, yeah. Yeah. He looks like he's going well. Yeah, he looks like he... And I guess, like, I know we probably haven't touched on it, but I know that he was quite public about his, like, sponsor drops at the end of last year. Obviously he lost, I think, lost Red Bull and lost Canyon, and I think if that doesn't, like, I guess it goes two ways, but if that doesn't, like, severely piss you off and motivate you, like, nothing will. Harry: He does look like he's going very well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's it. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Because like, someone gives- someone's given you a reason to fight now, haven't they? Harry: Yeah, that either ends your career or makes you think fuck you, middle finger time and I'm just going to come out the gates just all guns blazing. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, like I'm just gonna put everyone away, yeah, put everyone away and just feel like, like get to end of the year and be like, I'm the fucking big dog again. ⁓ Harry: Yeah, if anything, as a fan of the sport, I'd almost love to see that. I'd love to see Daniel Bakkegaard just rip every single race he does this year, come out on top and be like middle finger to the sponsors that drop me. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ I'd love that. Yeah, like, and always like, and as a byproduct sign, like other sponsors and be like, fuck you guys. Yeah. Harry: Yeah, yeah, that would be so cool. But also I don't want him to beat me. ⁓ Yeah, so Daniel, if you're listening to this, go fuck yourself. But there's still some good names on there. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I also don't want him running like 67 and... Oh mate, there's um, yeah mate, it keeps going as well. think there's so many athletes, I guess, that we've raced multiple times as well. you've got like people like Tom Davis, you got Tegel, like Florian Angertz won this race a few years back. So I know obviously you got Malachi, our guest from last week's back in the race as well. you've got... Harry: I don't know. Yeah. Mm-hmm Andrew Horsfall-Turner: And it does just keep going, you can just, like, even if you just keep scrolling, there's like, ⁓ there's another good athlete, Kurt McDonald, ⁓ I can't say his name, Ogjan Štepanjavic, the Serbian guy. ⁓ he, and he was flying and he flew at Dallas, he? When he was, ⁓ I think he did Dallas and he was like third or fourth there and he ran really well as well. ⁓ so mate, yeah. Harry: Yeah. Yeah, he's got Janek Schoffler's just won a race in Germany, so he's on fire. ⁓ that's true. Yeah. So there's some really, really good names on here. The depth of field is very good. ⁓ you've also got, where's butters? Did I see those butters on the start list? So hands butters. So that means the swim is gonna be on. Yeah, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I think. Yeah, hands butters, yeah. On. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think before we go into talking about maybe things that you might do to kind of like have the best result you can. ⁓ sorry. Excuse me, everybody. I think we should touch on the women's field. And I think it's the same day as T100 Spain. So I think that does take a few athletes out of their race. ⁓ Harry: Hmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: but it still has some like class athletes. you've got like ⁓ Carolyn Poole, Marta Sanchez, Katherine Christensen, the Danish athlete. She's been doing really well the last couple of years. ⁓ And then like, I'm just getting quick, quick scroll through. You've got Brit, Meg McDonald, ⁓ and again, Sophia Green. Like there's, it's going to be a good, good race. I think cause it's been put on the same day as the, what? Harry: Yes. Yeah? some really good names. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Because T100 has put a race on at the same day, you're probably missing sort five to 10 athletes that probably would have done this race as well. So I think that loses a few athletes, but hey, it's still gonna be a great race on their side as well. Harry: I dunno. Yeah, I think there's still a good number of women there. You maybe just miss a few of the top women that have decided to go for T100 for obvious reasons. Like if you'd qualified for it and you got a slot, why wouldn't you? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm, yeah. Yeah! Cough Harry: So it's, yeah, that'll be an interesting race to see. But yeah, I mean, how bad can it be? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, no, hundred percent. Yeah. So I guess we kind of did a bit of a debrief of Salou, although because we were focusing mainly on Malachi, we kind of skipped. Well, I didn't skip you. You just gave us a very concise review of your race. But I guess from my perspective, not that we need to unpack that full race again, but from my perspective, guess, we're two weeks on. You obviously... Harry: Hmm. Yeah. You Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: would like even when you have like a good race, bad race or anything in between, you always take some level of discovery or findings from that race that you can hopefully implement, you know, small things that can create big wins kind of thing. Is there anything that's kind of jumped out to you that you've, you know, gonna change going into this weekend or yeah, where are you at with that? Harry: Hmm Yes. Yeah, it's a good question. So I guess it gave me confidence in my swim, although I think this weekend is going to be very different with the level of swimmers there and the depth of field. ⁓ But I mean, this swim, the swim this weekend, so for anyone who doesn't know, it's... it's in the canal that's next to the Danube. So it's kind of just a long straight swim. It's not very technical. You have one little ⁓ loop and then you have an exit. for me, it should benefit me because I will be hopefully able to continue contact with the front swimmers. ⁓ The bit that I seem to lose contact on is the technical aspect. So swimming around buoys. you for someone like you who's got a very good open water skill, it's probably like the best place for you to open up a gap. Whereas for me, I always seem to lose gaps. So for the swim, it's given me a bit of confidence, but I guess the main learning from last weekend was you cannot just get on the bike and go balls to the wall and hope that it will work out. So yeah, that's almost my learning, which sounds, it sounds so stupid. Like every time Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah, get you. Harry: It's funny, every time I say this to my brothers, let's say I go home and we have the family all around and whatever, and they're like, oh, how did the race go? And I'm like, oh, I just went too hard on the start of the bike and blew up. And they're like, well, why did you do that? And I'm like, you guys don't understand. Like, it's not that easy. yeah, you just, you don't think you just do. And sometimes it just doesn't work. And unfortunately, Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Ha ha ha! Why'd you do that? Yeah. You don't choose, you just follow, yeah. Harry: I think I've probably realized that my bike fitness is not quite ⁓ at peak level. this race still, even though it's a championship race, it's still not like an A race for me. I'm saving the kind of peak fitness for Swansea and for Tempe later in the year. So this is still like a B race, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about it. It doesn't mean that I'm not gonna give it everything I've got, but I just think the bike fitness isn't quite where I want it to be. So it means that... Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Harry: going into this race, having realised that from Salou, I need to then be a bit more tactical, potentially surf the wheels a little bit more, try not to spend too much time putting my nose into the wind at the front, although I don't want to be just a guy who surfs the wheels and annoys everyone, it's having like a... yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: It's so difficult though, yeah. I think I completely agree with you then, as soon as you said you're feeling like maybe the bike finish is not quite at 100%. You've obviously shown the fact how strong you rode the first section at Saluda. Obviously you do have some good legs, but I guess it is about how many matches do you have and how many are you willing to burn early? And guess this course being flat. Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: potentially coming out in the big front group. guess maybe you do try and play the invisible man, but I think it's so difficult because as you said, you want to get a good result and you don't want to get a good result and then people think like, fuck I didn't see him all day, where the fuck was he on the bike? Because he was just like invisible, but at the same time it's a race, like, what'd you do? Harry: And... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's so hard to know what to do and you only make a decision, you can always think like, oh, this is going to happen and I'm going to do this. And then on the day, you might just be in a different situation or a different headspace or... something might happen and you just find yourself in a completely different situation than you thought you'd be in and you just have to roll the dice and just go with it and so it's also difficult. I've found that flat courses, although on paper you're like, ⁓ yeah, they don't seem too bad. If you go too hard too soon on a flat course, it really comes back to bite you. what I find with, let's say, let's take Swansea for example, because it's punchy, like I always find you can actually rip the first 20 K let's say. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: but because you have those little micro recovery sections with the downhills or around the technical sections or whatever, you kind of recover a little bit. It sounds really weird, but you almost recover a little bit. Whereas at this race, there is nowhere to recover. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. If you stop pedaling, you'll start going backwards sort of thing. Yeah. Harry: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's an interesting one. It's like, it's, it's actually a lot harder than, it looks on paper. Um, and I think to be honest, the thing that really, it didn't piss me off about, um, the race the other weekend, but it just, frustrated me that my running was in a really good place and I just ran like a sack of shit. I don't know what went, what happened. And so I, I kind of really, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. But if your legs aren't there, you know... Sorry, Karen. I was gonna say, if you screwed your legs, you you just like have to... You have to do what you can do on the run and I think you learnt the hard way that maybe, you overbiked a little bit. ⁓ I guess that was why we didn't really touch on it, but like, how did you fuel? Did you think it was a fuelling thing at all or did you think you were spot on there? Harry: It... No, I was... Yeah. It definitely could have been a fueling thing because I found that after maybe halfway through the bike, I found I was getting a little bit of stomach discomfort. So I backed off having ⁓ more fueling. And then I think that maybe left me being a little bit empty. And I feel like the issue was, maybe it's not, but I've got this, the Canyon bottle. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Harry: sat underneath my Lisa bottle on my cockpit with the straw that goes into it so I don't need to take it off the bike and the gels don't mix like incredibly well with water so I found that the gel just sits at the bottom so then essentially when I'm going for a drink all I'm having is gel and not water and maybe that that Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Are you using... Is that a flow gel or just like the actual like proper gels? Harry: I'm just using like 90 gram gels so they don't mix the flow gels definitely mix better with water. So, so yeah, I ⁓ potentially need to try and mix up a bit better or something like that. I'll just have more plain water because I find if I just have gels and I'm not drinking actual fluid, then that potentially could have been could have been an issue. Could have been a contributing factor. But ultimately, Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Okay. Yeah. Harry: I did go too hard and it was a long run. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: So I guess taking those now into this week is a case of, yeah, being a bit more tactical, ⁓ hopefully having a really good swim again and taking confidence from two weeks ago. then, yeah, hopefully getting yourself to T2 with some level of freshness to the legs so that you can hopefully put down a run leg that you know you can do kind of thing. Harry: think so, yeah, because I feel like, and I'm not saying I'm one of the best runners. James Tegel is probably the best runner in the field, if we look at that start list. He's so quick. But I would back myself against most of the guys. I mean, if it was a foot race, Tegel would have my pants down. But I feel like ⁓ for most of the guys, Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, he's rapid, isn't he? Harry: I've backed myself on the run. it does mean I shouldn't be in a position to have to send it on the bike. That's if there aren't people up the road. you know, mean, Hogan Haug won it last year with a 1.15 run, which arguably isn't that fast. I mean, it's a mixed terrain run. So it's definitely not, never going to be a quick run. So a 75 is still good. But he was so far off the front that he, that's all he needed. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: to do. So you know, yeah, it's one of those where Fred Funk and you know, some other guys Draper could be off the front and then they don't need to run as hard. So it's like, do you do you then chase them and risk blowing up? Or do you save yourself for the run and hope you have enough real estate to reel them in? That's if you that's if you've got good run legs as well. It's hard. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that goes back to what you're racing for. I guess, like, I'd be doing you a disservice to say, like, you know, I look at the start list and, I think on your day, you could definitely mix it up with the best and potentially win. Um, but I guess it depends on the mindset of like, salute, you were kind of going like, shuttle bus, like I'm going for the win. And if I don't, then so what? Whereas like with this race, do you have a level of like, well, it is a championship race. I would still be happy with like, Harry: Mmm. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: third, fourth, fifth. So do I like if Fred Funk or Draper does an absolute sender on the bike again, do you go, actually I'm going to play it smart today and actually, you know, maybe I'm, maybe I'm not racing for the win, I guess in some situations, but maybe, maybe you're still racing for second and that, that could be better than finishing 10th, guess, but. Harry: Yeah. Lulululul So 100%, I think, so I chatted to Rob about this and I was like, if I was in peak peak fitness and this was an A race, I'd be like, I wanna try and go for the win again. But I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing better than just going, yeah, I wanna win this and then blowing up. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I wanna win it, yeah. And then doing it. ⁓ yeah! Harry: ⁓ No, it's a great feeling when you're like, I want to win this race and then you end up winning it. Like it is cool. Like you put yourself out there, but I think for this race with it, the quality of field and the fact that I don't think I'm in A plus condition, I'd be very content with taking a top five. And so I think that's my mindset is like, like you said, if guys are off the front, you're like, okay, well they can have fun off the front. and if I catch them, great, but if I don't, I'm racing for... Yeah, I'm not racing for the win, I'm racing for a lower level that hopefully will still get me decent prize money. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: You're racing for your best possible performance that day, Yeah. Harry: Exactly, yeah, yeah. So I think that's the goal this weekend. So it's a slightly different mindset. But yeah, we'll see. I mean, slightly different to yours this weekend, because I expect a win at Swansea sprint distance. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I know and when it was just I was thinking to myself then when you were talking ⁓ about like slightly different mindset and and then just thinking of you sitting by the table with your with your brothers again saying all right Harry what happened you went well I said I wasn't gonna go for it but I got in the race and I fucking went for it Harry: It's like that, have you seen ⁓ the Senna documentary about Etten Senna, the F1 driver? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: No, I haven't, no. Harry: ⁓ it's such a good documentary. It's like one of my favourite films actually. ⁓ in one of the interviews with, I can't remember who it was, some Scottish ex-F1 driver who was interviewing him. And he was basically saying, ⁓ you're like one of the best drivers, but you're also a driver who has the most crashes out of everyone. Like, is that? What's the correlation there? And his response was so good. He was like, ⁓ Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. Harry: Yeah, if you no longer go for a gap, you're no longer a racing driver. So I go for every single gap I can see. it's kind of that like mindset of like when you're racing as an athlete, you're like, if I no longer go 100%, if I no longer try my best, if I no longer just do it, then you're no longer like an athlete. I know that sounds really stupid. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah No, no, and I like it. I think it does. It definitely applies to like our kind of sport where not to like downplay obviously this weekend at all, but I guess there is that element of like when you are feeling like your fitness is peak level and stuff like that is like you want to put yourself out in there and give yourself the opportunity. And I have, I guess I probably am terrible for this because Harry: Mmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I guess there's a level of opportunist in the sense that I know sometimes it's the wrong decision to do and to go super hard on the bike. And I'm like, yeah, but you still haven't put a run together yet and this and that. But then you get into the race situation, go, if I just keep trying, eventually it's going to pay off. And actually there's a level of, at the end of my career, will I still be content with? Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: giving every opportunity the best opportunity or giving every opportunity I felt the best go. Because again, like, yeah, it depends what the race is, but I guess what you don't want to do is always like jog around for like a 10th place and be like, yeah, that was all right. Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, because it's like, yeah, if you no longer go for it, then it's like, what is, what's the point of settling? Like if I think if, when it works out, people, if it doesn't work out, people call you an idiot and they call you crazy. But when it does work out, they're like, ⁓ that guy knew what he was doing. And it's like the difference between one and the other is so fine. It's so close. Like the difference between blowing up or getting to the finish line of winning can be like, it can be so, so fine. And so it's like, yeah. The difference between being known as an absolute legend who paced it perfectly and an absolute twat who blew up is actually not that different. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yes, y'all yeah. And like, a good example of that was this weekend just gone in 70.3 Chattanooga. Did you see the race? Harry: It looked pretty wild. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: But obviously, the winner was a 21 year old guy called, ⁓ Jeremy McLean, which I think he raised Swansea last year DNF'd, on after the bike, think. ⁓ but he has had no kind of previous results and he had no kind of like, I guess, authority to just like ride off the front of the race and just go and win the fucking thing. ⁓ he was racing like Harry: Yep. Okay. Yeah. I love it. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Sam Long, Matt Hanson, like some decent, you know, well-accomplished athletes who, you know, you look at that race, you're like, Sam Long should win. And he just like puts them all to the sword. And it's like, you can bet that that guy is never going to regret taking a chance. Like he didn't, I get a bit like like Hogan Hart, know, Hogan Hart did last year at the Challenge Chains. I think he only ran like a 115, but he put himself in a position to do, like to win the race and Harry: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I well knew that he could blow up and finish nowhere. But, yeah. I love that. I love seeing it. Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's cool. I thought actually that was so sick to see. It's like, if he worried too much about the names on the start list, he'd probably sat in on the bike and not really featured. But the fact that he just went, you know what, fuck it. I'm gonna send it off the front. And if it happens, it happens. And now everyone's like, ⁓ my God, this guy's a legend. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, literally, gone from zero to hero in like, well I think he had a good St. Anthony's, but yeah, he's just gone from being like, a lot of people were who's this guy, like, fucking out this guy could go. Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's so cool to see. You just hope one day it's one of us. Okay, both of us. We're gonna go, we're both gonna go one two in Swansea and one two at 10B as well. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, well, mate, you've had a couple of good ones, so, Don't do yourself a disservice. And we'll be like 20 minutes off the front. Yeah. Easy, mate. Easy. Easy. Right. No, that's that's that's that sort of summarizes racing, I guess, this weekend up nicely. We kind of have like a little branch topic, which I think, you know, we've probably just touched on for like five, 10 minutes just before we end the podcast. Harry: Yeah, easy. How hard can it be? Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: But yeah, this is basically goes back to our stream of voice notes earlier, because Harry has just booked to go with one of his partners Fusion to their wind tunnel in Denmark. And it got us talking about kind of aero testing, different bits of equipment, weight saving, basically the chat that anyone on their group ride at the weekend with their mates is talking about, you know, what helmet should I buy? Harry: Ha. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Andrew Horsfall-Turner: What aerobar should I buy? Basically just the chat that happens in triathlon. And we thought we'd chat a little bit from our perspective of people who have been to the wind tunnel, people who are going to the wind tunnel, and then also, guess, where we would, guess, invest our time and energy. like, Harry, do you want to start with, obviously, you're off to the tunnel soon. Harry: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: What do you want to test? Like what you interested to find out? Yeah, you shoot. Harry: Yeah, it should be a really cool opportunity because I've been to the Silverstone wind tunnel a few times but it's always been part of a bigger sort of project like I would go with Argonne. and I would be testing their bikes and then I'd get like, you know, very kind of them. They'd offer me like an hour, two hours at the end of the day to test my own bits, which is really cool. But this is specifically for me to go to the Fusion Wintano in Denmark, which would be really cool. And I'll have like a day and a half to do my own testing, which is brilliant. And it should be really exciting. And the benefit of not having crazy number of partners. is you can then test loads of different things and find the fastest thing for you. So we were chatting about this on our our voice notes, but, know, like if I was partnered with, for example, a helmet company, then obviously you have to use their helmets. But the beauty of this is that, I can go to the wind tunnel, test every single helmet they've got and find the actual fastest for me. And unfortunately, I can guarantee the helmet will cost me an absolute fucking fortune. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah. It's gonna be at least another 400 quid mate, at least. Harry: Yeah, exactly. This is also the problem with getting aero testing is you find what's fastest for you and then you need to bloody go out and buy it. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah, no, that's it. And I think, I guess the beauty of what you've got here, as you said, like, yes, you're partnered with Argon, yes, you're partnered with Fusion, but you've got kind of, guess, freedom elsewhere, is that if you do find a helmet that works really, really well for you, and I guess potentially it's not one of the mainstream ones at the moment, there's the opportunity of like, well, actually, this helmet worked really well for me in my position. Harry: Mm-hmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: I'm now gonna use it as the fastest helmet for me at the end of the season. There's a potential to go to that company and be like, your helmet is the quickest helmet format for me. Obviously I'm racing in it already, I'd love to represent sort of thing. So there, I guess that's the dream situation is finding what's the quickest for you and then partnering with them, rather than partnering with someone and then finding out that actually something else is better for you. That would be really frustrating. Harry: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly that. Like that would be really irritating. So it's nice to be able to go with like a clean slate. And it kind of always comes back to that question we ask each other like in the little training group that we've got here is like, you know, if a company approaches you, that's not potentially going to be the best or the fastest or whatever, like how much do you have to have? to be able to go with that company, let's say. know, like, yeah, how much money do you need to have on the table to be able to sacrifice the potential loss in speed or gains or whatever? It's always a bit of a battle for like, well, all professional athletes, I think. And I wouldn't just say like low level pros, like all pros, do, like there's only so many companies you wanna be sponsored by, isn't there? Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Hmm. Yeah, I sa- Yeah, and I guess there's the difference as well. I think it's almost more applicable to the mid-tier pro because they're having, maybe they are getting opportunities with some companies ⁓ more than your entry level, ⁓ but they're not quite in the position where if you've won a world championship and you have the freedom to choose whatever you want sort of thing, within reason obviously. Because I remember when... Harry: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: was it Laidlow came second at Kona in 2022 I think it was. I remember seeing on his social media there that he was like he went and visited like a couple or even a few different bike companies before signing with Canyon I think it was. So I think there's that element of like yeah okay yeah we and I guess bikes is a hard one because bike frames there's there's so many good bike frames out there bike companies out there. Harry: Mmm. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: And I think the difference in terms of speed on a lot of those bike frames is pretty nil to like, they're all pretty much the same these days. you're spending 10 plus grand on a bike, it's going to be fast. ⁓ So, but I still think, yeah, having being a mid-tier pro taking kit that could potentially make you slower in a career where we might only have 10 more years or, Harry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: barring a bad injury, you might only have another year or whatever, it kind of would do a disservice to you as an athlete and the real intent why we all do this, which is trying to be as good as we can be. We're not going to leave the sport millionaires. Very, very few people achieve that level of income. But what we can leave the sport with is with real intent of we did what we could do to be the best athlete we could do with what we... Harry: Yeah. I'm gonna... LIFE! With what you had, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: what we, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I guess, I guess. Harry: Yeah, because that is obviously it is like it's it's one of those where the better Athlete you become the more support you get to become an even better athlete So it's like it's in every area like, you know, you become a higher ranked pro then iron man will actually start Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mm. Harry: putting you up in accommodation. So you don't have to spend as much money, even though you're making more money from being a better pro, you get more support or you you get support with travel accommodation or your, your sponsors are able to offer you, let's say more wind tunnel time. And so you get the ability to refine your position even more and you get more products and more of this and more custom products that potentially aren't on the market to other athletes. Like then the gap just becomes bigger and bigger. It's like a snowball effect, isn't it? And it's, Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is like, it's the bubble aspect, isn't it? It's like once you kind of maybe get into a bit of that, into the bubble, then kind of like life is good. Not the life is bad sort of thing for us sort of thing, but, and I guess there is tears of that too. And I think, know, both you and I have been beneficiaries of being supplied with, you know, equipment being, you know, Harry: It'd be interesting to like... Go on. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: being given opportunities to use the wind tunnel. ⁓ And like that expense, if we had to go out and spend it, you know, I don't think it's any, ⁓ it's not like sort of hidden behind a wall, but if you're looking to go in the wind tunnel, you're spending a couple of grand easy, like if you're paying for yourself. Which when you look at how much pro triathletes really make, especially, I guess, in the mid to low tier, like you ain't... Harry: It's a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. It's not much, it's less than people think. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: There's not many people, there's not many people can, yeah, not many people could afford to grant to spend on themselves. ⁓ so, you know, I've been, I've been fortunate in the past to have people, you know, when I was just about to turn pro, I had, ⁓ a local company here in Swansea actually pay for me to go in the wind tunnel. ⁓ and that, like those, that sort of sponsorship is kind of like in, well, it obviously has value to it, but invaluable in terms of like development as well. Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ Because before that you just you're just hoping for the best Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well exactly, you're just kind of throwing stuff around and seeing what sticks, kind of thing, and just, like, you're just hoping it's quick but you have no validation. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Mmm. Yeah. And then what you do is you get to a certain... I know there's ⁓ anyone who's kind of heard about the wind tunnel or been in a wind tunnel will know that there is differences from athlete to athlete, position to position, but there are like there's still trends and that's what I think is quite nice is like when you know other athletes that are going to the wind tunnel and they're testing certain things or you know equipment or tri-suits and stuff like that. Harry: Mm-hmm. Yes. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: you can learn a lot from your peers as well. Obviously it depends how much like people are happy to disclose. Obviously Harry's going to the wind tunnel, I've already asked him like to test a couple of things out for me because I'm interested and I know it's not going to be like perfect like for like yeah. Harry: 100%. Hmm. Yeah, yeah. But it's also good for, it's good for the both of us because we're similar. I mean, we ride, we ride the same bike. We're similar body shape in that we're potentially bigger than other athletes, similar height. So it kind of like, you'd almost assume that it would, it's not gonna be like for like, but you know, if there's, yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah But there'll be similarities, yeah, yeah. Harry: Exactly. Yeah, I mean if I save 20 watts on something, maybe I won't tell you. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: He's like, I'm gonna be fucking flying. Harry: Yeah, I'd be like, ⁓ yeah, you should buy this BMX helmet. It's really quick Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ and I guess like, and I saw this, I saw this somewhere a while back, but like, you can get some pretty incredible readings from the wind tunnel in the sense that like, you think, you know, you think you're going to be like some like pro tour rider because you're so aero. And there is, there's an adjustment factor, like, you know, the way you hold yourself in that really confined, controlled environment. Harry: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: you know, is gonna be way different when you're, you know, on the rivet pushing close to 400 watts, trying to hold like, World Raper's wheel, like, you're not gonna be holding the same position, it's... Harry: Yeah, no, not at all. And you've got a crosswind butchering you and you've got to look actually where you're going. It's so easy. I see it time and time again, photos from the wind tunnel. I'm like, this motherfucker can't see a meter in front of him. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Woo. But he looks good. Harry: But he looks fantastic! And that's what I'm gonna be. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Ugh. Mate, it's all of our Instagram. The more you make people believe you're super-ero, the more- more- more-ero you become. Harry: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So yeah, that's what I'll be doing. But yeah, should be, I mean, it'd be a cool opportunity. see. I just hope that I don't go all the way and get no gains because that would be really shit. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Nice. Nice. I've had it, mate. I've had it back in a couple of years ago now. Went in and obviously, optimistically was hoping to find a few watts. ⁓ And it was before the whole, like, I guess the rear bottle fairing mount systems came out where there was like, that's, you you chuck one of them on and for most people it's like either cost neutral or you gain a couple of watts in terms of speed. Harry: Hmm. Sure, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: But I went in with a, I would say a decent position and I tried more stack, less stack, more reach, less reach, less tilt, more tilt and ⁓ yeah, the original position with the original helmet I went in with was still the quickest and ⁓ you're just like, you spend all that time and you're like, I've literally, I've gained nothing. Harry: It's so annoying. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: But then at the same time you go away, you walk away and you're like, well, at least firstly, I haven't got to spend 400 quid on a helmet. That's a good thing. ⁓ And also at least now I like in my mind verified that like, right for this bike in these conditions, I've got the best possible setup now for, for what I'm, what I'm doing kind of thing. But. Harry: This is true. Yeah. Exactly, like it does kind of validate what you've been doing, but it's just the time that you don't get back. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah, at the very least like you you flying away to Denmark I'd be you'd be pretty miffed if you didn't at least find a couple of watts, you know Harry: I'll be a little bit upset, I will be honest. I'll be quite upset. So fingers crossed, because I'll actually be in a terrible mood if that's the case. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Right, anyway mate, let's call it there because I know you're traveling out tomorrow. Obviously, big post-race chat next week and I've just thought about it but should we get, or should we ask Mr. Kieran Linders if he maybe wants to join us for the post-race chat? Harry: Yeah. yeah, let's do it. Let's ask Mr. Linders. I'll butter him up on the weekend. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Yeah? Yeah, so that might be quite good. Yeah, yeah, buy him a beer after the race. Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Sweet as. ⁓ I'll try and get him involved and I'll have a backup if ⁓ he doesn't like me buttering him up. I'll have a backup. I'll try and just butter up everyone. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Ugh. Yeah. Tell Malachi he can't come on this week, but he can come on in a couple of weeks time. Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Worst case I'll get Belinda on, That would be incredible. I reckon she'd be game for that, you know. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: ⁓ was pretty fair. That would be a great post race chat. Hey mate, put in the groundwork, we'll get her on at some point definitely. Harry: I'll definitely buy her a drink. This podcast is not long enough for that. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: And on that note, we're going on to the Harry's Dating Life. Right mate, best of luck this weekend. Look forward to tracking. Harry: You Cheers mate, you too. I'll see you on the other side. Andrew Horsfall-Turner: Cheers. Have a good one. Bye. Harry: Bye bye bye.