Rose: Welcome to today's episode of I'm 5, but now this is our six month episode. So we have been running for six months now and I have brought in a different type of guest for us. So for this first six months, we have had human beings with two X chromosomes. Today I'm bringing you one that has a Y. Welcome to the show, Vern. How are you?

Vern HIll: Thanks very much. Yeah, that's quite an intro, isn't it? I I'm feeling the pressure of being the the first anomaly on the list. So hopefully it'll be fascinating and appropriate in equal measure.

Rose: We have got many men that would like to come on the show. So you are just the first one. We've done that first six months of women and we're bringing in a variety now. So please tell our listeners, Vern, who you are and what you do.

Vern HIll: So my name's Vern Hill. I am a pre and postnatal PT by training and have been for 25 years nearly. And I founded a business called CarryFit 11 years ago. So CarrieFit is a baby wearing fitness class. That's how we started life. And we still teach our classes to this day. But the business has evolved quite a lot. We've worked quite closely with the NHS, with Physio Networks, we've had some studies done into CarryFit. And we've designed and developed and now sell around the world our own AF Leisure baby carrier that also unlocks access to the CarryFit app, which is a full suite of healthcare for new mums post birth. So it's this kind of all encompassing baby wearing movement business now.

Rose: Amazing, that is so exciting. And I think somehow our paths have only just crossed in the last few months. To say that we are in the same field, we've not really like crossed paths have we? We only met a few months ago. And I think the big thing that struck me about Carri Fet is we were on like a Zoom and we were all introducing the different things that we were doing because we were expert panels at Elevate. And... I was sort of explaining Baby Beats and we are predominantly supporting women postnatally with their recovery and really looking at pelvic alignment and very gentle exercise. And I absolutely remember it so vividly that you said, am unapologetically a fitness class. And it really struck me that I was like, yes, well done that you are. and you really owned that that is what, you know, this class was about. So take me back to the beginning of being a pre and postnatal PT. Is that where you started or were you just a general PT?

Vern HIll: So so I was I did a sports science degree, many, many, many, many years ago. and then went to work for a big health club chain. Part of my degree I'd done pre and postnatal exercise. Nobody else at the gym was qualified in it. So anytime any members got pregnant, it was given to Vern, because he's the only one that knows what he's doing. Which was a total kind of anomaly back then. I mean, it was still very much at the early stages of training through your pregnancy of pre and postnatal fitness of all this kind of stuff. So that was unusual in itself. I think in a weird way that made it not unusual that I was a bloke that was qualified to do it because nobody was qualified to do it. It was kind of a new and emerging bit of the fitness industry. And then after working at that health club chain for a while, opened up my own PT studio in South London. The focus there very much was on training you when you're pregnant or bring your baby. postnatal and we can have your baby at the gym because one of the big barriers to people having PT, particularly for those that perhaps didn't want to put babies in a crash and be apart from them was you couldn't have your baby with you on the gym floor. So the the gym was very much bring your baby. And as part of that, we used to wear our clients babies in carriers. So rather than have little babies unsettled apart from mum crawling around the gym, we'd wear them in a carrier. Generally babies would go to sleep as most parents will understand. and so mum would have a less interrupted, less lower stress workout and therefore get more out of it and get better results and feel really great at the end of it. And CarrieFit, the workout methodology, kind of evolved from that. So I went very far down the baby wearing rabbit hole and have become somewhat of an expert in in baby wearing itself, but also this idea of baby wearing movement and and and what that means and how you can do it. And and CarrieFit kind of, as you said. rightfully is unapologetically, it's a workout first. You know, carry fit C A R I stands for cardio and resistance intervals. It's how we program those 30 minute sessions that we deliver. And my whole thesis on it was well, how far can we safely push a baby wearing workout to be both postnatal appropriate, medically approved, you know, liked by physios who were deep skeptics early on. And mostly give mums that are really missing and craving that real workout feeling, something that feels familiar, but is entirely appropriate, safe, and beneficial for where they're at on their postnatal journey. So that was how we we will set

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: about formulating CarrieFit. So and what we found with that is yes, we get the what I would say are kind of the the mums that are really into their fitness and desperate to get back to working out and it meets that need for them. and it really does and it it gets you really fit, carry fit. But actually because of the baby wearing, because of the way it's programmed and it's accessible to all levels of fitness, we actually get people that perhaps haven't been huge lovers of group exercise before. And we open up this whole new world for them. And certainly what I've found over the last 20 years of really specializing in pre and postnatal is there's never a time that you're more interested in how your body works and what it needs than after having had a baby. because you've

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: got to move, your body's under pressure, it it has changed in lots of ways. and so I think the one kind of odd advantage I had was there was no line of comparison to me. I hadn't gone through it, and therefore I could just program it based on the evolving kind of science of what we knew about what was good to do with a postnatal body, what was the journey that body needed to go on. So it was kind of that one step removed professional. And because I'd not gone through it myself, though I've watched my wife go through it twice, you know, I I could look at it slightly dispassionately and just sort of say, well where where can we where can we take this? What can we do with it as a workout?

Rose: Wow, what did you say, 25 years ago when you started, it wasn't something that was done,

Vern HIll: No, I mean I think I I I I've literally I've I've kind of lived and worked through the evolution of pre and postnatal fitness from from the old school thinking of you're pregnant, put your feet up, why on earth would you want to do that? To the kind of I think where we were probably five years ago, the I I can do anything immediately and it's gonna be fine. To the now much better understood principles that govern, you know, a healthy, safe pregnancy adaptations that need to take place. according to what you're into and what you do on a normal day-to-day basis. And I think where we are now is a really amazing place to be. The support that's out there, the things and the resources that have evolved and come up. the understanding around movement, around community, around the benefits of combining those two things, particularly for new mums from a mental health perspective, are better understood than ever. and it's been amazing to kind of be a small part of it, but also w be there way before any of that happened. Way before there was Instagram or TikTok or any

Rose: Yes.

Vern HIll: of these things. You know, I was just training pregnant mums to be in a gym in Epsom, and making sure they felt all right and understood what what was going on with their body. So yeah, it's been very it's been very, very fascinating to watch. new mums to thrive through a pregnancy and after a pregnancy and the role that activity, movement, exercise and community all play.

Rose: It's definitely becoming an exciting field to be part of. You know, it was very specialist, like you said, when I first trained, it was just this niche that you were, you know,

Vern HIll: Yeah.

Rose: you just had this really small group and there was a lot of questions around it. Like, is that okay? Are we okay to do that? Are you sure that's okay? And I think, you know, like you said, with the research that you've done, We've done quite a lot of studies on the social impact of it as well. It just gives you that much, know, not only validation for your programme, but actually the positive effects that it's having on so many different lives and the lives of the babies that have been born as well, that they're actually then growing up with mums that are fit and healthier.

Vern HIll: And I think that's a really interesting bit that's the next bit that will really evolve we've now got children that are starting secondary school that did carry fit with their mum. Like that is a beyond cool because

Rose: Wow, okay.

Vern HIll: you know, lot lots of businesses don't survive that long, and that's really cool in itself from a sort of k self congratulatory pat on the back standpoint. But actually, you know What are those children turning out like? Are they naturally into being active? Are they healthy? Have they had really good role models at at home? have they got, and this is where the baby wearing bit and the baby wearing science kicks in? Have they got those really secure attachments? Have they got those really good kind of emotional anchors as children as they grow because of those formative months spent moving with a parent in a carrier? Because we know that that's what happens. That science has existed since the 80s. We that's really well. researched. I mean I've sort of said it for years and I know I've said this to you but it you know, a a well, healthy, happy mum, that is the heartbeat of a whole family unit. If everybody understands that and can support that, the the the ripple effect, the knock on effect to other family members, to children is is unbelievable and incredibly powerful.

Rose: Yeah, definitely. I think I know that in myself. Like if I'm in a bad mood, the whole of the house is in a bad mood as well. you know, so much is sits on my shoulders of how I wake up on a morning sometimes. So talk to me a little bit about being a man in this industry because I think as a woman, there are... There are certain things like when I talk on stage or I do panels and I talk a lot about my lived experience and I think to some extent our programs have grown from my own personal experience and what I needed. How have you found that as a man? Have you found it easier because you are slightly more removed or have you had sort of pushback?

Vern HIll: So I so I think it's it it's both of those things have happened in in truth. So very early on it it was a it was a non thing, it wasn't an issue. It was you're suitably qualified, therefore you understand and therefore you can train me. and there wasn't that comparison at scale that social media has given the world. So th there wasn't, you know, a a hundred thousand lady pre and postnatal inverted commas experts online there was one guy that was qualified to do it in a gym in Epsom and and that was your local person so you went to them so there was no comparison early on and therefore it was it was that glorious sort of bit of well if you're qualified and capable and good at your job you'll you'll build clients and you'll you'll go from there. and I've seen that kind of evolve to through the early bits of social media to the who the hell are you to be talking about this? What do you know? I mean a and my pushback always to that is well I I know the science, expertise is expertise, qualifications are qualifications, and I've delivered over thirty thousand hours of pre and postnatal fitness, which is probably more than a lot of people out there. That's just because I'm

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: quite old now. but but I think

Rose: Hahaha!

Vern HIll: I think experience you you can never have it when you start a career. But the quicker you can get it, the better you make use of qualifications of knowledge. Because you start start to recognise patterns, you start to recognise common themes, common challenges. And that was where CarrieFit was born. It was born to address a challenge. It was a business challenge for me. I wanted more mums in my gym and to know about my gym. How can I get more in there? Let's do a group class where we all wear our babies. Perfect. And then it was a meet and need. For mums, well we want a real workout that makes us feel like us, gets us fit, gets us results, but is postnatal appropriate, doesn't require childcare, and I don't want to be apart from my baby. Not even for a minute.

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: So it it's kind of been it's had its advantages and its disadvantages being navigating it all as a man. I I think or I would hope that we're now in a place where if you're good at your job and you talk sense, people quite quickly recognise that. and I would

Rose: Yep.

Vern HIll: I would I would hope there's now kind of irrefutable proof that you know CarrieFit has been a a net positive for a huge number, thousands, tens of thousands of of people now between live classes and our and our app that people use around the world and and therefore actually it doesn't really matter who came up with it. So you need the qualifications, you need the knowledge,

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: and then you need to go and get experience delivering this stuff and talking to people

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: and and being around people. And and and I think of any if if anybody were ever to pay me a a compliment, if they said I was highly competent, that would I think be the best compliment I could be paid in a Carrie Fit context, certainly in terms of teaching a class, in terms of running a business that's changed out of recognition from where from the original idea. perhaps I'm not competent in all areas, but I have wonderful people that that work in other areas of the business that are way, way better at things than I am. So I think there's yeah, it's been a fascinating it's been a really interesting and fascinating journey. when it all started social media wasn't a thing. So I mean it's I th I think, you know, if you were if you was trying to step into that space as a man now from cold, perhaps that would be a different experience. But certainly it's i it it's a field that I I feel unbelievably privileged I I fundamentally always come back to that principle of, you know, a world full of strong mentally and physically strong mums, that if we really want to change the world and make it a better place, that's where we start.

Rose: Yeah, I think it's such a privilege place to be in and we say it all the time to our teachers and you know, they say it as well, that it's such a really special time, challenging time, a unique time in a woman's life. And to be part of that is, it is a privilege. It's a massive privilege. And going back to your saying about, you know, just standing in front of the class, it really doesn't matter gender. And I think, you know, things have moved on for the better, but I do think you are right in terms of social media and the backlash that you can get off faceless keyboard warriors. And I think as long as you can stand in front of a class and you are a personable person, you are knowledgeable, you know, modifications, adaptations, you know how to deliver it. There is nothing else that... you need apart from that do you? It's all about the personality and the knowledge and creating a safe space as well.

Vern HIll: I I think the safe space thing is is really key. But and that's comes down to that competency bit. If if people the second they're under your care, which is a huge trust and it that's where the privilege lies, that they've put their trust in you, if they feel calmed by your competency, they will enjoy whatever you're about to ask them to do, they'll trust the process and and hopefully from a business point of view, they'll come back many, many, many, many, many times and make the business sustainable and and well thought of.

Rose: So talk to me a little bit about the business side because I think your business journey has kind of gone on similar to ours where you start off with this one concept that you want to do and then it almost intentionally but kind of unintentionally snowballs into something else because you've gone from creating a gym, PT space into a class into then having your own carrier which is a huge achievement in itself and then into an app as well. So. Just explain to me all those different elements and how they kind of came about.

Vern HIll: Yeah, so so I mean so the gym was a natural evolution as lots of PTs did back then. Work for a gym, go freelance, set up your own business. I was very lucky to to find a a cheap warehouse sort of space in Wandsworth and and just go for it, which was great. And I and I and I went for it with forty clients already on the books, so it was sort of it was a fairly safe safe move. Carry fit then as I say, came about as a way to engage with more mums. it became a a kind of baby wearing fascination behind the science of baby wearing. At the time I we just had Polly had just had our fur our daughter, Florence, and then quickly followed by by Felix. So I was baby wearing myself and and the practicalities of it were amazing. The feeling I used to get was amazing. I was like this is This is like double win. If exercise makes you feel good and baby wearing makes you feel good, imagine if you smash those two together. This is gonna make you feel amazing.

Rose: Yep.

Vern HIll: so so that was the class bit, and then we we tried it and we tested it, and we had the first independent evaluation of it done, and then we we created a free program for the NHS, which was amazing, sort of learning curve and the hoops you had to jump through in 2018 to create something that the NHS would sign post were spectacular. In the background of that, we've been approached by a huge global baby wearing brand called Ergo Baby to use their products in our classes and content and and as and recommend them in in the very sort of early days of those kind of strategic partnerships. And we work with them for four years. But going down the baby wearing rabbit hole, seeing and understanding how babies position, how bodies react to movement in a carrier. the kind of support that parents need if they're going to be more active in a baby carrier than just mooching around the shops or walking down the road. We we, and I say collectively we because, you know, at this point CarrieFit was a team of us, you know, we always had this unbridled ambition, you know, could we create our own high performance, athleisure baby carrier? You know, if if Lululemon and Nike got together and decided to make a baby carrier, what would that look like kind of thing? And and that became carry fit so we we learnt hard into fabric technology we we did loads of testing and research we we could move things much quicker because we had lots of people come into classes so anytime we wanted to try something or can you can you five wear this and give us feedback immediately you know we didn't have to organize groups or discussions we took stuff to class and said try this on please

Rose: Yep.

Vern HIll: and then the the app really kind of was born out of lockdown. So we were very, very lucky in lockdown and sorry if lockdown drags up horrible memories for people, but we were very lucky that we'd we'd not long

Rose: Thank

Vern HIll: before lockdown launched a first online version of of some Carrie Fit home workouts and a sort of programme you could follow on the back of the NHS stuff. So there was a little bit of physio in there for the first sort of six or eight weeks. There was a core programme and then there was loads of different baby wearing workouts that you could Choose from to do. And it was a really kind of quite clunky, quite kind of 2019 online course which we'd launched because we increasingly had people on social media. This is the good side of social media discovering us and saying, Where can we do these? And we only taught our classes in London. We still only teach our classes in London at a handful of places. So it was a way to reach more more people. And the app really is a kind of enhanced. personalized version of that journey. Personalized in so much as we have this huge content library and it only pulls in the bits that are relevant to you based on a load of inputs that you give it at the start. How is your baby born? What are you training for? Etcetera etcetera. And so yeah we've we've now kind of ended up with this crazy business of we still teach our classes in the same places at the same leisure center in Ballon. And yeah, it's become this kind of I won't quite say unruly beast of a business, but it's become a very different business. But but everything drives back to that that common unifying thought of is this gonna help to make a new mum feel stronger, more capable, more connected? And if it is, we're gonna try and do it. So that's what the app does, that's what the

Rose: Yeah. Yeah.

Vern HIll: carrier does. It makes you fe our carrier literally makes you feel more comfortable when you move with your baby versus that that's the whole design remit.

Rose: Yeah. I just love that you've had that evolution as well, that it starts as one thing. It's something that I really think is so similar to our story as well, that it's just one thing that it just organically evolves, doesn't it? You're like, this is brilliant. Now it's gonna evolve into this and into this. And has there been any points where you've sort of gone, what am I doing? Like, what am I actually doing? How did it get here?

Vern HIll: I mean I mean daily. Daily.

Rose: Hahaha

Vern HIll: I mean I I I I kind of I kind of joke with everybody. My my favourite four hours of the week every week are the four hours I still get to walk into a gym and teach carry fit. And I used to teach about twenty hours

Rose: Yeah, yeah.

Vern HIll: of carry fit a week and now I teach four. But they are my favourite hours every hour of every week is literally my happy place where I feel you know, I can be having a rubbish day and go and teach a carry fit class and come out feeling amazing. never never mind what the participants feel. And I think, you know, as much as as much as the business evolution has been planned and incredi and I'm incredibly proud of everything we've done, large parts of that business aren't my natural wheelhouse. You know, I'd never worked with overseas suppliers and done distribution and, you know, imports and exports. You know, it's so it I I think the key thing for me from a business point of view was I very quickly realized that if I didn't get out of the way of certain aspects of the business I'd be the problem. So actually it's

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: it's a willingness to hand stuff over to people that are better at it than you. to understand as a founder you can't do everything and actually your your time is not well spent doing things you're not good at. you know, concentrate on the things you are you are better at and that you enjoy more.

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: you know, I I love I love being in person. I love talking. This has probably become very apparent in the last twenty nine minutes for people. But I love

Rose: Hahaha!

Vern HIll: I love talking about Carrie Fit, about postnatal fitness, about baby wearing. You know, I do it on stages at all the baby shows. We go to all I love when we exhibit at all the all the baby shows, baby and toddler shows. It's absolutely brilliant. I love meeting people, chatting with them. That is who I am as a person. That's that's the PT I chose to be. The rest of it is kind of a a series of very committed, as in we committed fully to them, happy accidents. and also just a willingness

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: to to to risk it and and and try stuff, you know. I think there's yeah, a wi a willingness to to to risk stuff and and commit fully to those risks. and always but always with that same always with that same North Star. Is this actually gonna help a mum move more and feel a bit better during this time of great change?

Rose: Yeah. Yeah. And it's your core values as a founder. Something that we talk a lot about. What is your core values? And when it deviates from that, that's when you start to feel that disconnect from your business. And it really resonated with what you've just said about learning as a founder to not do everything. It's something that I've had to step back with quite recently because I was like, okay, these are not my areas of expertise and I am stubborn and I want to do everything and I want to do everything really well myself. And Realizing that actually other people can do it better than you and your time is exactly like you've just said. I much prefer to be on a stage or speaking exactly the same as you in front of people. I am not great at sitting behind a desk just doing strategy meetings and I'm like, just let's just

Vern HIll: Mm-hmm.

Rose: go, let's do the fun part. So I think that's recognizing that as a business owner as well. And think even if we've got, you know, smaller businesses that are listening and it's just you on your own, it's still outsourcing. It's really key sometimes to developing your business and give it into your stubbornness, just a tiny little bit.

Vern HIll: Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, I think there is with Carrie Fit and I think this to to anybody that is growing a business, that the second you doing a task is not as valuable as you doing a task you're really good at, try and find somebody else to do it if you can, if the business can support it. Because actually you're you are your the f the founder, rightly or wrongly, always to a point and there becomes a point of scale where you're not the most valuable asset the business has, but Lots of businesses never get there or don't want to get there. the the the second your your time and your expertise is, you know, doing things that somebody else could do much quicker and potentially better or at a lower cost, freeing up your time from a business perspective. Whilst it is, as you just said, Rose, it's hard to let go and most most of us founders are to a degree kind of control freaks and It it's good, you wanna know everything

Rose: yeah.

Vern HIll: about your business, but it knowing it and understanding the process doesn't mean you have to do the delivery of it. And it it is hard to to let go, but it's also it's a really game changing thing when you do. and it's immensely rewarding to see a business move forward or a project accelerate because you've been willing to say, Well, that's gonna take me months and I'm not very good at it. Let's get somebody that can do it way better, way quicker.

Rose: So if we've got anybody listening, Verna, that is thinking they'd love to start something up in whatever field, you know, that they're thinking interests them as a business owner, as a founder, have you got one golden nugget of advice that you wish you'd have known before you started?

Vern HIll: I think I've probably got two two things that I I would would say. number one is if if you've got an idea that just won't stop nagging at you. Carry fit for me was that idea, and it actually took my wife saying to me, either shut up and never mention it again or do it. Because I'm so bored of you just talking about this great idea you've got.

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: So so if you've got an idea that you keep coming back to that you think there might be something here, I could I could lean into this, I could turn this into something, go for it. Because the truth is, nobody cares if you go for it. You'll be the only person that's disappointed or even knows that you didn't. So I would say go for it. And and then start kind of backing that up a little bit, as soon as you decide to go for it. Get a few trusted people that you can bounce stuff off. I I think founder life i is really lonely at the start. Often you you might have gone from working in a bigger business or working with lots of people around you where ideas and conversations are bouncing around and popping off all day long to suddenly being consumed with this idea you have to make work on your own and it can be really lonely. And actually having one or two people to bounce things off, to chat to, to check in with. I think can be immensely liberating, kind of mentally. Because otherwise it it it's

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: lonely. I I was very, very lucky with Carrie Fit that I had a couple of people that there was it was never just me involved. There was always somebody doing something else because I was always kind of on to the next idea. Could we do this next? and I was very lucky to have a a a couple of sort of mentory style figures that I could always just ring up and just say, look, think this might be the next thing, could be a good idea, could be absolutely terrible. In the end, we sort of coined a term amongst us all that we'd we'd have a regular check-in and we'd go panning for gold because most of what I said was absolute shit. But every now and then in there was a nugget of gold.

Rose: Hahaha!

Vern HIll: And actually if you dump it all on the right ears, they'll help you pan through for the good bit. And you can ignore

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: all the absolute dirt. that you're that you're throwing into the pan alongside it. So d what I would say is don't get caught in the kind of lonely founder trap because it's

Rose: Yeah.

Vern HIll: it's not a great place to be.

Rose: Yeah, I can really like, think 100 % that's such an important thing to have is just to have that network of people around you because it can be a really lonely place and you can talk yourself into or out of all different ideas depending on the mood that you're in and just to have somebody

Vern HIll: Yep.

Rose: else to bounce things off is a really important thing to have. Well, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on and, you know, I know we are a female driven podcast and to be the first man that comes on, it must have been a little bit scary when I sent you a WhatsApp and was like, by the way, you're going to be the first

Vern HIll: Well

Rose: guy, but thank you so much for joining us.

Vern HIll: My pleasure. Let's hope let's hope the social media comments are are kind on the back of it when it goes out. I'm I'm sure they will be. Fingers crossed, he says nervously.

Rose: I'm sure they will be. Can you let everybody know who is listening, where they can find you online so they can come and connect?

Vern HIll: Yeah, so the CarrieFit website is simply get CarrieFit. It's C A R I F I T dot com. And our Instagram is a great place to go. We're very cool. We've got blue tick and everything. We a blue tick when blue ticks are still important. We're well cool. which is just carry underscore Carrie Fit. But yeah, do do come and check us out if you've got any questions or or baby wearing questions, always drop us a DM and we're happy to. Have a human reply with an answer.

Rose: Well, thank you so much, Vern, for coming on today.

Vern HIll: My pleasure. Thanks everybody.

Rose: You've just listened to I'm Fine But. If you're unsure about business or what really matters to you right now, why not take our free Core Values course? It's linked in the show notes and it's a brilliant place to begin. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode and you can follow us online at all your favourite social media platforms at BabyBeat UK. Until next time, I'm Rose and I'm fine but honestly... We're all just figuring it out.